Toni Nieuwhof - Why Are We Disillusioned With Marriage?

Show Notes

Toni Nieuwhof - Why Are We Disillusioned With Marriage? by Browncroft Community Church

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Peter Englert:
Hello, welcome to the Why God Why Podcast. My name is Peter Englert. I am here with my illustrious co-host Erin Mercer, and we are also here with our extraordinary producer Nathan Yoder. When you have the producer, that's what you can do.

Aaron Mercer:
That's right. There you go.

Peter Englert:
There we go. We exist to respond to the questions you don't feel comfortable asking in church, and we feel like today's question is definitely one of those. So we are brought to you by Browncroft Community Church out of Rochester, New York. We are here with Toni Nieuwhof who's an author, podcaster, former lawyer, also former pharmacist. But as a lawyer, she was a divorce lawyer, and the question that we're engaging today is, why are we so disillusioned for marriage? And I think if there was anybody that would know why we're dissolution for marriage, it would be Toni, and so I'm looking forward to this conversation. Aaron, do you have any thoughts?

Aaron Mercer:
No, I think it's going to be a great conversation. Certainly, a topic that I think a number of people want to be talking about. And so I'm really excited to hear insights from Toni. Again, really appreciate you being on this podcast with us and sharing your insights, sharing your thoughts, and I'm excited for our conversation.

Peter Englert:
Well, Toni-

Toni Nieuwhof:
Hey, I am too, yeah. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Peter Englert:
No, this is great. Well, Toni, without further a do, why don't you tell us a little bit of your story and how you've landed, where you are today in helping marriages and relationships?

Toni Nieuwhof:
Yeah. Well, my husband, Carey and I have been married for 32 years. We have two sons that are grown and out of the house. We met in law school and we hit the ground running in our relationship. We were me married midway through law school. We had our first child... Well, I was pregnant in my last semester, so had our first son 10 days after I wrote my final exam. And from there, Carey went to seminary and we ended up pastoring in a community north of Toronto, where we still live. And over the years, we had very full lives when we started out in the church. And after our first son was born, a second one came along. And so we ended up entering ministry wholeheartedly and finding that we got into this negative downward cycle of conflict that we couldn't find a way through.

Toni Nieuwhof:
We struggled deeply for about 10 years and eventually Carey ended up burning out. I ended up with a depression at the same time, and we literally fought our way back to a relationship that now I can say we would never want to leave. We've by the grace of God been able to find our way back to a close and deeply satisfying marriage. But none of that was a given. And when I entered divorce law practice, I ended up sitting across the table from people who, and I remember a man in particular, who looked at me as he was signing off his final paperwork. Pardon me. He looked at me with tears in his eyes and he said, "If only I'd known then would I know now, I would've worked harder to save my marriage." And so put all of this together. And I guess I'm just giving you the background as to why I feel this sense of urgency in having these conversations about marriage, about divorce, and about people being disillusioned with marriage.

Peter Englert:
I'm so glad you brought Carey and you up. I kind of want to back up to you. I like that we're kind of free flowing a little bit from the marriage to pre-marriage, but so here's kind of... I actually have a copy of Before You Split, as I've been reading the book, and as I've been thinking about this question, I've been trying to process this and I'd love to get your thoughts. I think in today's culture, people would hear your stories and hear your conflict and say, "Well, Toni, if you and Carey would've just finished law school and then got married, or you were settled in your careers, you'd probably have less conflict," because I think the assumption is when everything is settled in my life, that's the time to get married.

Peter Englert:
But, I think it's the center for marriage out of the university of Virginia just came out with a study that said, "Marriages of people that get married in their twenties, that don't live together before they're married, tend to have happier and longer marriages." And again, we can cite that study later. I'm just familiar with it because it just came out, but the general rule of thumb now is, "Hey, get your career together, get your life together, then get married." Do you think your story would've been any different if you would've waited to get married or just... Because that seems to be the cultural value right now. I don't know process with me. That's kind of where I'm trying to kind of get to.

Toni Nieuwhof:
Yeah, that's a great question. I don't believe that the passage of time really would've made a difference. And Carey and I weren't in our young 20s when we were married. We'd already done our first degree before we went to law school and then that's where we met. So we were in our late 20s by the time we got married. Sorry Carey, let's just leave it that way. But I don't think the passage of time necessarily is a factor that makes a difference. I think what does make a difference is an orientation toward personal growth. I think there definitely are ways that you can prepare for a successful marriage, a good intimate relationship by, pardon me, dealing with things that may have happened before your marriage.

Toni Nieuwhof:
For example, experiences of trauma in your past that you might be bringing into your marriage. So yes, if you compare somebody who gets married in their, let's say mid 20s somebody who gets married in their 30s and they've done the work of personal growth before they've reached 30, then would that person be better positioned for marriage? Maybe they would be, because they've done the personal work, but I think it's that personal growth work that makes the difference not the passage of time.

Peter Englert:
Well, let me push on that a little bit because the people that I talk to about marriage, they do put the focus on time. And a lot of people that I encounter, one person really wants to get married and the other person is reluctant to. And this is where I want to be kind of challenged it's, if you've been dating for like 10 years and you're not getting married, I'm kind of sitting back there and I'm like, "What don't you know that you're going to find out longer?" And so I guess even what you're trying to say is, we have to stop thinking about our season of life, even our accomplishments.

Peter Englert:
But the discussion, even of why we might be disillusioned with marriage is, we've kind of put it as a life goal and plan as opposed to really kind of dealing with the hard work of trauma, mental health, or just kind of our family systems. And that's kind of the conversation that you're even starting in this book for someone that hasn't gotten married, is that we've been disillusioned with marriage because careers are important, but marriage is not a career. Where you live and the house you buy is important, but it's not marriage. So I don't know, push back on that. Is that kind of what you're saying?

Toni Nieuwhof:
I think we're on the same page as far as waiting 10 years to be married doesn't really reflect what a marriage is intended to be. A marriage is intended to be a life partnership. And I think in the past, part of that disillusionment with marriage might stem from maybe a more, I'm going to say, legalistic or hardhearted look at what marriage is. We've heard marriage talked about as it's a covenant, it's a vow. And I believe that that's what it is. That it's also rigid in the sense that divorce is not an option. I'm sure we've heard that said and I think that we lose sight of marriage as being a true partnership, a partnership where both people are living, growing human beings. And the person that we sign up for is actually going to grow and evolve just as I'm going to grow and evolve, you're going to grow evolve.

Toni Nieuwhof:
I don't think we always enter marriage anticipating that this is going to be a partnership where there's going to be all kinds of twists and turns and changes to negotiate. And so in the context of that, and when you're really aiming to have this close, intimate relationship that lasts and endures, then to me, it doesn't make sense that we would put it off because what is the trigger point then? I certainly felt when Carey and I were married that we didn't need to wait for financial stability. That was going to be some time in coming because Carey knew he was going to seminary.

Toni Nieuwhof:
We also decided that children would always be a part of our lives. And so we didn't really place a value on setting that timeframe into the future. Now, if we had delayed getting married and we dated longer than we did, would that have been a benefit? I don't know. Maybe it would've been for a period of time, especially if I had, and Carey had decided we were going to do some counseling before we got married. Sure, I could see some value in that, but I don't see a value in putting off the partnership if you intention is that you want to journey through life with this person. I guess that's just my perspective.

Aaron Mercer:
I think what you and Peter were just talking about is really interesting about timing on marriage or whether it's actual timing or it's checking, do you need to check certain boxes before you get married? I guess I'd love to back up a little bit further is just why do you think people... The topic today is why are we so disillusioned with marriage? And I think that's a good question. There is disillusionment with marriage, but I think a lot of people want to get married. Why is that? I'm married and I'm very thankful for that. So we hedge my question with that, but I think it's an interesting kind of foundational question. What do you think, why do you think people are so drawn to being united to somebody else in the first place? Why that hope before the disillusionment?

Toni Nieuwhof:
Yeah. Personally, I do believe that we're designed that way. We're designed for a close, intimate relationship. And researchers such as Dr. Sue Johnson would say that love in the form of human connection is an ancient wired in survival code. The close connections and real attachments are actually part of our not only surviving, but thriving. And so I think it sets up attention for many people because we've lived with, or we've seen unhealthy examples of marriage. And we've lived, and we've seen terrible examples of what a divorce can look like and how hurtful it is. And maybe somebody who's listening has even gone through a divorce that's been terribly painful, or they've been a child of parents who have been divorced, and that was painful. And I understand why it makes people gun shy, but I think a lot of that stems from legalistic, or really unhealthy examples of relationships. When it works well, marriage is absolutely beautiful.

Aaron Mercer:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Toni Nieuwhof:
But when it's unhealthy, it can be such a struggle.

Peter Englert:
You brought up a really interesting point. You bring up children of divorce, and I think about you have two kind of grown sons. I'm kind of curious how they're navigating this, because I feel like as a millennial and generation Z, we were kind of the first generation to... And again, I don't know how this statistics are true. I know people throw out cliche 50% of marriages got divorced, but it's almost as if divorce became normal. And I remember as a kid, the first couple that I knew that got divorced, it was a huge shock, and then at some point it just wasn't. And so I feel like my generation along with younger generations are saying we're reluctant to get married because we don't want to make the mistakes our parents made, but just a little hot button issue, what that ends up kind of the logic is, well, if I meet someone who I'm very interested in, I'm going to decide to live with them.

Peter Englert:
And I think that as Christians we believe that sex is saved her marriage, but there's also statistics that kind of say otherwise. And I guess I want to kind of give a ton of grace to our listeners, we're not trying to be legalistic. I guess what we're trying to kind of say is, in this conversation, it's affirming that you don't want to get divorced because the pain of that, but are you entering in the right way? And even as the logic kind of the right manner of thinking of, "Hey, let's not make this commitment because we're afraid we're going to get divorced," but what other problems are you kind of seeing with some of the modern day couples that maybe 20, 30 years down there they might say, "This probably wasn't the best way to enter marriage."

Toni Nieuwhof:
I guess delaying the commitment makes me wonder whether that level of commitment is the same. And I don't know. I can't answer that for people, but I think there is something to deciding that this is going to be my partner for life, and I'm going to approach this relationship from that perspective. For Carey and I we looked at our marriage vows through eyes of faith. So we had ecclesiastics 4:12 as one of the scriptures that we based our wedding ceremony on it. It says, "A court of three strands is not quickly broken." And so we entered marriage with our heartfelt belief that Jesus was the third strand. That Carey and I were two strands of this rope, the chord was three strands and Jesus was the third strand.

Toni Nieuwhof:
Both of us would say that when we were in that deep season of struggle, it really was our faith in Jesus that kept us from walking out the door when we were at the lowest of lowest. So in terms of the strength or depth of that commitment, it has to be based on something. And so I don't want to suggest that I'm going to tell people what to believe, but I do think that if you want to enter marriage with a commitment, you really need to think through what is that commitment based on.

Peter Englert:
I think it's, Andy Stanley that when he talks about marriage, he's like, "I don't believe in the one, but if you marry that person, they're the one." And I just always have thought that's interesting, because I guess in my perspective, I said this on the phone to a friend and my wife heard me and I had to give her context. I don't-

Aaron Mercer:
That's always like, "Well, I'm interested in what's going to come next now." That was good.

Peter Englert:
Well, I'd love to hear your thought. I didn't feel that Robin was the one. I just felt committed to her. And that's kind of where the Andy Stanley thing, I probably could have been married to other women, I'm not going to, and had a happy life. But because God brought Robin into my life, I actually feel like releasing that pressure of, "You're the one to make me happy. You're the one." There was just an attitude shift of, "No, I want to marry you. I'm choosing you." And I feel like that's kind of shaped our marriage because even what you're hinting at, and I'll let Aaron talk about his marriage. I always say the controversial stuff, you have the communications director so we can edit anything out, but I feel like that's helped me more in marriage of, I'm not looking to Robin to fulfill and complete me as they say in Jerry McGuire, but I've made this choice to marry her and that requires my investment to grow. I don't know. Before I get to Toni, Aaron, is that kind of your experience in marrying Kristen or?

Aaron Mercer:
Kristen knows I'd be in big trouble if I wasn't married to her. So I'm very thankful for her. Yeah, no, I would've loved to have seen how that conversation went with Robin actually. It would've been fun to see the facial expressions, but I get what you're saying, Peter. I think what you're saying, there's a lot there and I'm glad you're bringing that up. Actually, I would love to hear the response to it guys. It looks like you have something to say, so I'm going to stop talking and let our guests get back.

Peter Englert:
That's all good.

Toni Nieuwhof:
Actually, I really appreciate what you've said, Peter, because I think it's attached to this whole mistake, I believe, of putting your spouse on a pedestal. Because when you believe that your spouse is the one, especially the one who's going to complete me, the one who's going to make me happy, the one who's going to be my soulmate. It puts a heavy burden on your spouse. I believe one that's heavier than, it's intended to be. And to my perspective, my life is ordered by my faith in God. So God first, Carey second, kids third. That would be my priorities. If it was the other way, we, and if Carey was number one in my life, if he was my overriding priority, sometimes that just gets to be distorting. I remember hearing a story about a couple who got married and they ended up in a counselor's office because she was insisting that she would have her husband's undivided attention for the whole day on Saturday. And she had these expectations for a very long intimate time together. And then they would spend the whole entire Saturday together.

Toni Nieuwhof:
And maybe that works for people. If that works for you, then fine. I'm not going to tell people how to live, but it was a problem from his perspective because he just didn't have that same expectation. And it became clear through the counseling process that she had him on a pedestal, and he had to jump through many hoops to satisfy all her desires. And I think we're designed to be more communal than that, to have a community. Your spouse isn't going to satisfy all of your needs and desires. For example, you may be very interested in playing golf and you may have a buddy to play golf with instead of your wife or your husband may, your wife, sorry, might have a burning interest in politics and it's really not your thing. And so she has a friend who she can spend a few hours talking about politics with. I don't think we're designed to live up to this glorified version of marriage that I think sometimes undermines the relationship that we could have if we didn't have expectations that were that heavy.

Peter Englert:
Let me kind of come back to where I started with that question, because I think for our listeners it'd be helpful. When you think of your son and when you think of your son's friends, how do you think they're engaging the dating and even... and again, I'm not asking you to share personal, but your just general thoughts, how are they engaging the dating or marriage conversation that's similar to you and Carey versus maybe different than you and Carey?

Toni Nieuwhof:
I would see what you've seen that I think there's this tension, there's a tension between that innate desire that we have to have that intimate relationship. And then there's also this hesitancy, it's almost like, "Let's just dip our toes in the water first, and then let's dip our toes in the water a little bit more, and let's not dive in, but we'll just very, very gradually enter this water that we could use as a metaphor for marriage." Just like we're very, very slowly walking into the lake. I question whether it's really a solid foundation for a committed relationship.

Aaron Mercer:
I'm curious. Why do you think people do slowly dip their toes in and they move that direction. And maybe even the imagery is presupposing that there's some sort of danger there, instead of it being a joyful, something more than you can imagine union, but let's even just say people were taking their time going that direction, or maybe taking too much time to Peter's point too, but why are people so quick to leave once they've made... It feels like sometimes the decision to jump in, maybe it's not a jump in, it's a slow walk in, but then the decision to jump out in our current culture is really fast. Why are people so willing to so quickly... I know that the processes take longer and you talked about that earlier in the early part of our conversation, but maybe the heart attitude of it changes too fast. What's your thought on that?

Toni Nieuwhof:
I observed that I had some clients who seemed to be making a hasty exit. And I guess from my perspective, I think it's impacted by people around you. If your parents divorced, when they face a tough time, then it may seem to be a more plausible option. It just may be something that's more at the forefront of your mind when you're thinking about how do we solve this relational mess. I think it's also impacted by this overall sort of contractual view of marriage and divorce.

Toni Nieuwhof:
I think we've probably all heard about the concept of a starter marriage or the starter marriage, the middle marriage and the final marriage. And so that really does go in line with more of a contractual view that this is a partnership that we're going to have for a period of time, and there's going to be some definition around it. And if we ever reach this point, well then we're agreeing that it's going to dissolve. Or even if we don't agree, I can make that decision myself. I think that that contractual view of marriage and divorce sets us up to really question whether it's a lifetime relationship to begin with.

Aaron Mercer:
Oh, sorry, Peter but I think-

Peter Englert:
No, go ahead.

Aaron Mercer:
In addition to contractual, it seems very consumeristic too.

Toni Nieuwhof:
Yeah.

Aaron Mercer:
It's about me. It's about, what can this relationship do for me? Which is not what marriage is about really. And I was even thinking that when you were bringing up the example of the person in the situation that you were talking about with the woman who was putting her husband on a pedestal, or in some ways maybe she was putting herself on a pedestal by saying that her husband had to meet X, Y, and Z needs of her, or whether she was saying that was something that was kind of ingrained in the background of her mind. I don't know that's always so in your faces as I need you to do X, Y, and Z, but it's something that it's an expectation that maybe we don't even know about, but all the same, it's very consumerist. I How should people actually be? Thinking about marriage going in, what do we have wrong that is making us think of it like a contract or like something we buy?

Toni Nieuwhof:
Yeah. That consumeristic view is totally in line with what can I get from this, or am I getting the love from my marriage that I want? Instead of thinking about it as, am I bringing love to the marriage the way I'm intended to? I think we do, just in our human nature, think about what we're getting out of a relationship first, I think. In our human state we think about that first, as opposed to, how am I showing up in my marriage? There's a plaque that one of my family members had on their wall and it said, "Home is where you learn to love." And when I saw it and I was in my early 20s, I thought, "Oh, that's kind of an unromantic plaque, but whatever." But the more I've gone through this journey of life, I go back to that and think, "There is so much truth in that."

Toni Nieuwhof:
And I believe marriage falls into that category, where when we're married, it is the front line of learning how to love, learning how to show up in an intimate relationship, learning how to trust somebody, learning how to extend yourself, learning how to put somebody else's needs ahead of my own. There's just all this learning that we have to do. And I think in our prideful state, that doesn't go very well, but in a more humble posture, one that's open to learning how to become the best version of yourself, that is so valuable. And I really do believe that marriage is the best opportunity to learn how to love really.

Peter Englert:
So I want to kind of give our listeners kind of practical tips, and I feel like this question is actually really good for people who aren't dating, to people that are dating, to people that are engaged, to people that are married. Because I think the theme of what you're saying in our conversation, but also in your book, Before You Split, is put the oxygen mask on yourself before you put it on the child, or in biblical terms, take the log out of your own eye before you take the spec out of someone else's. And really my wife said this and actually she's a mental health therapist, and you said this in the book, which is, "What's my contribution to this problem?"

Peter Englert:
So as you're thinking of all of those, you talked about trauma and depression or mental health, but to you, to the people that want to... From dating all the way to have been married for a long time, what are some of those red flags that you're are saying, "Hey, when you do work on this, you're going to show up better to this potential relationship." What are some concrete ways that someone can kind of begin to engage that process to say, "I can't control the other person, but man, this is the work that I need to do on myself."

Toni Nieuwhof:
One of those things that comes to mind is just, are you creating an emotionally safe space for your partner? Because depending on the environment you were raised in, and the adults around you, you may not have had stellar modeling in terms of emotional capacity or intelligence. And I think it's very common. Certainly, this was a stumbling block for Carey and I to either avoid, deny, invalidate your spouse's emotions or try to push back against them. So for example, Carey might come home from a meeting, completely frustrated and he says, "Oh, that was awful. It was terrible," and tells me about it. And I say, "Well, what did you do?" Did you talk to John? Are you going to schedule a meeting?" And notice what I've done there. I completely skipped over his high level of frustration and jumped right into problem solving.

Toni Nieuwhof:
So I haven't actually created a safe, emotional space for him. His response is probably that he's going to be more frustrated because it's as if I didn't even hear or respond to that emotion that he's really struggling with. And a far more successful way to show up for each other is to just be present with your spouse's emotions. And it doesn't take my much, just take a moment to go, "Wow, that must have been frustrating. Oh, I would've been frustrated if I was in your shoes, if I was in that meeting," so that your spouse has the feeling that they're not alone in this world, that there's somebody who gets them. And instinctively sometimes I think we are afraid that if we stop and even for a moment, identify with our spouse's emotions that we might make it worse. That they might become more upset and I can't handle it.

Toni Nieuwhof:
This is way too much emotion. But researchers are showing that it actually has the opposite effect. That if you create a safe space and you're just with your spouse for a moment in their emotions, you don't even have to agree with them. It's not like you're agreeing with everything that they're saying or even agreeing with why they're feeling that way. That's not the point. It's just that it bonds you more closely if you can just create that safe, emotional space, and validate each other's emotions. So that's one thing to pay attention to. That was sort of a long answer to your question, Peter, I don't know if you want me to keep going.

Peter Englert:
Yeah. Why don't you do one and two more? And one thing I just want to interject in there that I think is powerful is to our friends that are single or dating, that's something that's universal. It's not just a couple things. So I'm even thinking about if you're at work, are you creating an emotional, safe place? If you volunteer at the church, are you creating an... This isn't just marriage, what you're saying there is, hey, that person that drives you nuts the most, maybe in your HOA, can you create a safe place for them? And I think that that's powerful, because what you're doing is you're giving indicators of, "Hey, this is how I'm going towards health." So maybe one or two more, because I think this is super practical and super helpful for our listeners.

Toni Nieuwhof:
Sure. I think it's common in marriage, particularly in the early years, to end up with a sort of competitive framework when you have different opinions. And so I've got my opinion and Carey has his opinion, and we're both trying to persuade the other person to come over to our side and see it my way. And that kind of competitiveness doesn't go well usually because it can entrench you in those two opinions. And I think we lose sight of the fact that usually, when we've got a difference of opinion, there are more than two options available. We lose sight of the fact that it's probably we not binary. We have more creativity than we give ourselves credit for. And wouldn't it be better if you searched for a solution that might not be either one of your ideal solutions, but it's something that you can arrive to and agree on together and just learn to at the value of that shared solution that you can both live with? I call that fighting for we instead of fighting for me.

Toni Nieuwhof:
So that's just a little note about peace making .then one more thing that really can draw you closer is to keep your relationship fresh and build your intimacy by trying things that are new. Don't let your date night fall into a rut where you're always doing the same thing over and over and over. That's fine. It's okay. But there is research to show that if you try something that's new or exciting for both of you and you do this... They did in the study period just an hour and a half a week, four weeks in a row, and they tested how people felt about their relationship before and after the study period, the couples felt closer to each other and were more excited about their relationship when they had done something that was novel or exciting together.

Toni Nieuwhof:
So a couple of things about that, it needs to be something that you're both interested in, or at least that both of you are willing to give it a try. So nobody's being dragged into this, and it doesn't have to be anything expensive or adrenaline producing. I'm not talking about going out and bungee jumping. It can be as simple as something that you don't normally do. A style of cooking that isn't usually on your menu or try a new dance together, or go and explore a different village, go to a museum you haven't seen. Just something that is novel and interesting for both of you. Chances are when you make that a habit, it will grow you closer as a couple.

Peter Englert:
Man, I feel like we go another hour. We're going to have to have you back on, but we want to be sensitive. This is probably a great place to kind of close with our last question. So the question that we always ask and you've kind of hinted at it is, what does Jesus have to say about this topic? So the way we usually handle this is Aaron and I answer, and then we hope that the guest cleans up any messes that we have or any heresy. So are you up for that?

Toni Nieuwhof:
Well, let's give it a shot. Can't make any promises here, but I'll do my best.

Peter Englert:
Well, we've got to take responsibility too so it's all good. We'll start with Aaron. Aaron, why don't you go ahead.

Aaron Mercer:
Sure. Yeah. I think that Jesus has a lot to say. He cares a lot about marriage. God created marriage. He wants us to be... He created us to be people that are meant to be in community with each other. And in particular, we're built, I think, Toni mentioned this earlier of we're designed, you used the word designed, which I liked that word. we're designed for a relationship like this. And that doesn't mean that everyone always ends up in that relationship. And I think that's something that's worth talking about also. But it is something that there's a beauty to it. There's a beauty when it's treated right. There's a reason why the apostle Paul used it as imagery and in his epistles also too for the church and Jesus.

Aaron Mercer:
And so there's a beauty to marriage and God does care a lot about it. And it's not supposed to be like so many things in our lives. It's not supposed to be about us, about me, I should say. The me for part of... It's supposed to be about the us, like you said, the fighting for we versus the fighting for me. It's not about the me, it's about bigger than that. And ultimately it's about our relationship with God too. So I think this has really been a great talk. I don't want take everything from Peter here, but I just wanted to say, I think it's an important conversation. I have to imagine there's a lot of people who may not have been into... Not married yet, who are thinking about it and thinking about maybe they want to be there someday, or maybe they don't. There's a lot of unanswered questions. So this is a really good conversation. And thank you so much for diving into it. Well, okay, Peter. Sorry. I took a long time with that one.

Peter Englert:
No, it's good. So, as I was preparing for this episode, I've been reading the book of the Bible in Genesis. And one of the things I appreciate about the Bible is the Bible just has a ton of reality. And there's these relationships, marriage, I'm thinking about Abraham and Sarah, Jacob and Rachel, and actually there's multiple wives and that's a whole nother topic. But the thing that I find interesting is the moments that God is not mentioned or a couple's not getting advice, they fail. So real quick, I don't want to go super, but Abraham and Sarah get this promise to have a baby. And Sarah says, "Hey, since you can't have a baby, why don't you sleep with Hagar, the woman that's helping us?" And that today there's certain... But you could kind of tell that no one really had the conversation.

Peter Englert:
No one really entered that moment. And you just read the rest of the Bible and you see the brokenness of it. And I bring that up because I think that the Bible and Jesus has a lot of truth in what we're hearing is, don't go at growth in your relationships alone. And as you read throughout the Bible, anytime that God's not mentioned, or just even people tend to kind of make mistakes. And I think even what we're saying with marriage and disillusionment is, don't lean on your own understanding, don't think that you have all the right answers. And in some ways it's a pause to experience a life changing Jesus. To experience what God has for you. Yes, it'd be great for you to get married, it'd be great to meet that other person, but there's so much more meaning in your life when you become the person that God's created you to be.

Peter Englert:
And I think in all, all of our stories, including marriage, when we're maybe dismissive of God or we're kind of leaning on ourselves, we can kind of see the same decisions that those biblical characters made. And I wonder if we're disillusioned about marriage because we've done that, not necessarily that God's far away. So that was just kind of what I was reflecting on, but go ahead, Toni, you can close this up.

Toni Nieuwhof:
Wow. When I think about what Jesus said, I think about his reference back to the book of Genesis as well. When he said the two will become one flesh, that was the original design God had in mind. And if two people become one flesh that imagery is pretty clear. You're solid and united and together. But then Jesus went on to have a conversation. I'm thinking about what he said in Matthew 19, when the disciples questioned him and they said, "Well, why did Moses permit divorce then?" And Jesus recognizes that there's a tension. That the original design is that the two who will become one flesh and that there will be some people who can't accept it. He goes on to say that later on in Matthew. And so I think he's pushing back against a legalistic view, but he's holding up the original intention.

Toni Nieuwhof:
And the original intention is that you would be so united that you can't distinguish the two individuals. That they come together to be one in spirit, one in emotions and one in body as well. And so I think that imagery is beautiful, compelling. It's something to live up to. And certainly in my mind, I still see marriage as an institution worth all of our effort and hard work, and also something to be celebrated. I don't think we celebrate a great long term marriage enough. And any marriage, any relationship that goes long term that is authentic is going to have its ups and downs. If two people are not just living with a compliance mindset, but are actually really trying to wrestle their relationship in real terms, and allow for differences of opinion, and allow for growth to head in different directions, but still be committed, I think that's just an incredibly beautiful thing. And certainly my marriage to Carey has been a blessed despite the hard years, the terribly hard years that we went through.

Peter Englert:
Toni, thank you so much for joining us. Now, I subscribe to her email every week, it's been a great email. And then I also encourage you all, before you split, to buy this book, whether you're single, dating, engaged or married, but is there anywhere else that people can find you, if they want to follow you?

Toni Nieuwhof:
I do have a website. So toninieuwhof.com. My last name has way too many vowels. So if you want to know how to spell it, just look up Before You Split book then you'll find it. And also I have a podcast with a friend of mine who's a pediatrician. It's called the Smart Family Podcast. So you can also find me there, smartfamilypodcast.com.

Peter Englert:
Well, Toni, thanks so much for your generosity. Listeners, as always, the best way to get in touch with us is to go to whygodwhypodcast.com, click the subscribe button, you'll get this great episode, including other ones each week in your inbox. So thank you so much for joining us. Toni, thanks for being with us.

Toni Nieuwhof:
Hey, that's been such a pleasure. Thanks for having me.