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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents, Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Dr.
Tracy, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast.
I know we've been talking about having you on forever.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn.
Thank you, Jess.
I'm so grateful to be here with you.
Dr.
Tracy and I have been friends for several years now, and I've been talking to you about having you on since before the show even aired.
So this is so exciting.
Before we get started, I'm wondering if you can just introduce yourself for anyone who doesn't already know who you are.
I'm Dr.
Tracy Dalgleish.
I'm a psychologist, couples therapist, I'm an author.
I'm also a mom to two young children and the owner of Integrated Wellness, which is a mental health clinic here in Ottawa.
And I always like to
share how this work started, which is really about wanting to translate what I do in my therapy room to people all over the world.
And it started with being dissatisfied with how we were talking about building healthy relationships.
And I was in the depths of my own postpartum experience
with my second and it was at that time that I started my Instagram space and started the podcast and writing about relationships.
Yeah, and I love, I feel like there's so many parallels to what both of us do.
We're both have a passion for the work that we do that's based not only on our clinical experience, but our experience as
parents and humans who've lived this work out.
And everything that you teach just always resonates with me so much.
And knowing you personally and knowing where your heart is, it just
everything.
So I'm just so excited to have you on and share your knowledge.
I always turn to you if I ever have questions about anything couples related to and
That's what I'm really excited to talk to you about today.
Before we get into the couples piece, because this episode will be aired a week after Mother's Day, and you talked about the difficult experience you had with your second child postpartum
And before we get into all the couples pieces, that really a lot of the stuff about couples will talk about is postpartum, is after having babies and the challenges that can come up.
I wonder if you could share a little bit about that difficult postpartum experience that you had.
Mm-hmm.
After my first and hindsight always teaches me more than what it is in the moment, but I remember after having my first
I fell into this shame spiral, this sense of low mood, the sense of anxiety, and looking back, it was more severe than anyone would have known at the time.
I wouldn't go down the stairs holding my baby for probably six months out of fear, this intrusive thought that I would drop my son.
I didn't leave the house much more than a walk around the block for three months
I took a long time to feel comfortable nursing.
And it really threw me upside down just as my entry into motherhood
first having a surprise breach baby, which is part of my story.
It was nine centimeters, water broke, and surprise there's a bomb.
It was missed by
midwives checking me.
And so right from the beginning it was this moment of having a planned unmedicated birth.
Right then to lights being turned on, OB coming in, signing consent.
And my husband tells the story of this was your first brave entry into motherhood of making that decision
to keep your son safe by having a cesarean.
And for me, what I don't talk a lot about was my struggle into feeling like a failure.
Somehow my body failed me.
I should have known.
Just a lot of shame attached to that.
So then fast forward to my second.
Before having my second, I would stand at the park with other parents and wonder
Why is no one talking about the mental load?
I'm doing all these things and I'm carrying this list of what foods we're eating and when it's nap time and no one is having these conversations at the park.
And so then having my second, again, I'm standing at the park and people, other parents are talking about nap schedules and feeding choices.
And I'm wondering, is anyone else?
sitting here resenting their partners.
Is this just me?
And I know as a couples therapist, it's not just me.
I know people struggle.
But it was really interesting to observe how people are more open to talk about the mental health struggles they're having after having a child.
More open, not always.
And then also open to talking about the postpartum experience.
But rarely were people talking about the struggles they were having in their relationship.
And I found myself
on many occasions crying in the shower, saying, I didn't sign up for this.
And how are we so lost?
And why do we feel like roommates and just two ships passing in the night?
And
How in some ways that was attached to a lot of shame initially because of course I put on my couples therapist hat.
I go to the office
and I'm working with a couple and I'm supporting them through the same transition and yet I come home and I'm filled with this resentment and rage towards my husband and together us struggling to get through that
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think what you're sharing, it sounds so familiar, not only to me, but to so many of the clients I work with and even some of the the moms in my life right now who are having babies for the first time.
I feel like I've been having a lot of these conversations even in my personal life.
People coming to me and saying, Jess, when you and Scott had little babies, do you remember feeling resentment?
And some people telling me, I am surprised.
I am not angry at my baby.
But I'm very angry at my husband.
And I was not expecting to be angry at my husband.
So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about what did that look like for you, that resentment, like that anger that you had towards your husband
Yeah, from a clinical perspective first, resentment is a secondary emotion.
It's complex.
It's filled with all kinds of other pieces to it.
But the reason I call it a secondary emotion is because it's the tip of an iceberg.
where we know that the mass of the iceberg just contains so much more underneath it.
And I like to remind or to inform people or teach people that when we're looking at resentment,
What's underneath it?
So for myself, that resentment was irritability.
It was an overwhelmed
nervous system.
It was music playing at the same time as the dog barking at the same time as a child crying.
Yeah.
And then looking over at my husband and he's on his phone typing.
And that would just send me into this
heat in my body.
It was almost like from my toes to my fingertips.
And then just not having the tools of what to do in that moment.
And so then this is where we see
couples getting stuck, it spirals into that negative cycle, which is really at the core of where couples get stuck.
So then I would say something short
I would be prickly.
You know, I often describe my anger and resentment as like a prickle.
And then Greg would get defensive and he'd be like, I'm trying my best.
And then that would just enrage me even more.
And with all of that spiral in a way, it then just led us to be more disconnected.
And it led us to then only talk about
you know, hey, do you got the diaper bag?
I've got the water bottles, or where are the splash pants?
Who's doing drop-off?
And so there really wasn't any connection.
Um, I'm putting my hands intentionally like my fingers intertwining because that's the connection that we look for with our partner, but then instead it feels more like two ships passing in the night that we're not feeling close
Yeah.
And and how common would you say that experience is in new parents?
So common.
More common than we're talking about.
And that was really the inspiration behind my first book was to say
Look at how many people are saying, I didn't sign up for this, whether they are new parents, a blended family, having their second or third child.
We know from research from the Gottmans that 69% of couples will experience a significant decline in their relationship satisfaction after having a child.
And that satisfaction starts to alleviate around three years postpartum after having a child.
And I remember at one point reading a stad where relationships really start to change and improve after your youngest child reaches
seven years old.
Hmm.
And and would you find, because I know your youngest child is the same age as mine, would you find that that's true in your own personal experience?
In my own personal experience, yes, absolutely.
And and the question around that is it will depend for people because at this point now
Am I looking to my partner with curiosity and a genuine wish to connect?
Or do I have 10 years of backlogged resentments that I haven't addressed?
Absolutely
Everything you're saying just rings so true for me personally as well.
We've talked a little bit on the show about this, but I think our marriage struggled the most after our third
daughter was born.
And it struggled the most because the pressures of all the other things we had in our life were just so high at the time
And we were just starting our business.
Like Scott had just quit his job to work for Nurtured First.
We're trying to figure out how to be business owners together, which felt very difficult given that we have two very different personalities and ways of dealing with things.
And then we had three kids.
We were outnumbered.
We had a highly, highly sensitive toddler who just had explosive meltdowns almost all the time.
And we were just trying to learn about her sensitivity and how to help
her it just felt so overwhelming and I actually remember I think I've told you this before but one night I'm nursing my daughter my my baby
And it's probably like 1130 at night.
I have I'm not going to bed.
I know Scott's sleeping.
And I just feel so resentful towards him.
I'm just like, if I go back to the room, I feel like I'm just gonna shake him awake and be like
Uh, why why do you always get to sleep and I always have to be up with the kids, you know, I'm so frustrated with him.
And then I remember a post of yours.
Like I was scrolling Instagram and you had some posts and I can't remember exactly what it said, but something about, you know, when you're feeling resentful
trying to remember the things that you like about your partner or something something along those lines.
And I remember being like, oh shoot, I do like him, but I I'm just forgetting.
I'm forgetting the reasons why I like him.
Like even just something as basic as that
And it stopped me from actually leaving the room and just getting really angry at him.
But I I know for me that feeling of resentment, and that was after our third.
I didn't have it as bad after the first two.
It took me by surprise
Because it's that's not who I am.
I'm not a resentful person and and I like my husband, but I kind of forgot that I liked him for a time.
And so I think it's really important to validate.
And I've heard from so many moms in my personal life, my professional life
That feel the same and they feel like they're the only ones who don't feel those feelings of like or even love to their their partners anymore.
Yeah, I and you know, Jess, I'm so glad that we're talking about this because
It really was this was back in twenty eighteen.
So my daughter being one at the time, nobody was using the word resentment.
Mm-mm
And yet when I started talking about it online, so many people said, wow, yes, this is exactly what I'm experiencing.
And
this piece here and and I mean recognizing thousands of people signed up for my resentment webinar and knowing the context as well that we were all in lockdowns at home with the kids and
all of the things back in early 2020s.
But the piece here that I think is so important for us to recognize is that resentment let all of and you know this with the work that you do with kids, but all emotions are signals to us
And the question isn't about whether this is a good or bad emotion, but instead, what is this signaling to me?
And resentment tells us that there is a need that isn't being met.
And we wanna go underneath that.
What is underneath this resentment for me?
Is it envy?
Is it that my partner is doing the thing, you know, Scott or Greg, they're lying in bed while we're in nursing or doing the thing?
And is it that they're doing something that I wish I could do?
Is it anxiety?
Is it fear?
Is it sadness?
Is it loss and grief?
What's underneath that?
And then asking ourselves, what is it that I need?
And oftentimes resentment is the result because we're not letting our partners know what we need, or we are communicating it to them and they're not hearing us.
or they're not able to meet that need.
I had this conversation recently and I thought it would be good to bring up kind of along this discussion of resentment.
of this person they just had a baby, they're feeling very resentful towards their husband, and they're finding that for the first time in their life they're yelling.
So there's this postpartum rage that's coming out, and the postpartum rage is only coming out towards their husband.
And they just
They're like, I don't know how to control it.
I hate this feeling that I'm yelling at him all the time.
And I don't want to be fighting in this way.
That's not who I am.
So to someone who's there right now, listening to this conversation, what do you say to that person about
like a first next step or or or a way to kind of support them through that.
I would really want us to look at your nervous system.
What's happening in terms of
that anger.
So we go into our bodies.
The anger and rage is coming from a place of fight or flight.
And we do that because something doesn't feel good for us.
our nervous system is receiving too much information.
And we put it on our partners for really good reasons.
One, they're are a secure person.
they're a trusted person so we put it there we also do more of the mutual expression of that meaning that i'm not going to rage down on my children because we don't
put our feelings in our children, but instead our safe person is our partner.
So of course it goes to them in some ways.
But then the next question is, what isn't being met in my life?
Is it that I'm not asking for that 10 minutes before bedtime so I can go for the walk, I can take a bath, I can
just sit in quiet with no stimulation that I can put my feet up against the wall so I can calm my body.
What is it in there?
Because the rage comes from within ourselves and we can use tools to monitor or to cope with that emotion.
But then we also need to ask ourselves, okay
What is it that needs to be communicated?
And how can you do it in a way so your partner understands?
Because when we rage at them, it's pushing them further away from you
And it's important for us to remember that the dynamic in there is that when I yell at you, you don't actually hear what's happening for me.
So first, let's calm our bodies
Go and do something that feels good for you, good meaning, nurturing, soothing, calming.
And then asking yourself, what's really going on here for me?
And how can I communicate that to my partner in a way that's going to help them understand?
And it might be something like, you know, in the past week, I notice I've been yelling.
So taking ownership for where we've been at.
And then saying, I've noticed that I'm feeling overwhelmed.
And I we're both in this.
We're both overwhelmed and we're both sleep deprived.
And I need this, whatever that looks like.
like I need 10 minutes before bedtime.
I need you to take on this task so it's no longer this big heavy backpack that I'm wearing all day long.
Yeah I I feel like that's such great advice and it's so simple
as a first step.
I'll give an example for someone if if they're there of of how this helped me and how another way that you helped me.
I feel you had a post one time something about
showering.
Showering was a where a lot of my resentment lied.
Because and I come at it as someone who s has historically struggled with people pleasing, right?
So then you become a mom.
And for me when I became a mom of three and a business owner
there's absolutely no way I could keep everybody happy anymore.
When I was a mom of two, I could kinda do it, not well, but I could kind of keep my husband happy, you know, I could make sure all of his needs were being met.
I could take care of my kids.
I could I could do that.
But the more people were added to my life, the more responsibility was adding to my life.
I felt like I was letting people down in in every aspect of my life
And the people pleaser part was like, I gotta keep trying, I gotta keep doing more, I gotta help my husband, I gotta make sure he has time for his bike rides and his activities that he needs to feel good.
And in doing that, I had nothing that I was ever doing for myself
Like there would be weeks when I'd be like, I can't think of a single thing I've done for myself and and I haven't showered in four days.
And so the showering was the first piece for me.
that I don't I think it was you.
There was some post about, you know, just let them know you're gonna take a shower instead of asking for permission.
And it was a simple shift for me.
But I would feel resentful when I felt like I had to ask for permission to take care of my basic needs.
And that would and then I just wouldn't do it because I was like, I don't
I don't want to have to ask to take a shower.
So I just started saying something like, Scott, I need you to watch the baby.
I'm gonna go take a shower.
And I would go take a shower.
And in the shower, I would really just try and regulate myself.
I'd shave my legs.
I'd take time to actually like get that
really basic need met.
And I started finding that doing simple, simple things like that for myself, or Scott, why don't you hold the baby tonight so I can eat my dinner.
You know, some something and instead of asking, just telling, just saying, this is what I need from you helped me a lot.
So I'm curious, yeah, your take on that and and
how you would suggest to and we're talking a lot about women, but you know, any partner that's feeling resentful to ask for their needs or or tell their partner what their needs are.
Yeah, and and we'll also just pause here to say ten percent of fathers experience postpartum depression and it's often missed.
And so if you notice that your partner or you listening
As a dad, you're experiencing increased anger and frustration.
Depression in men tend to come out as more of that increased irritability and frustration.
So let's let's flag that as well.
That all people do struggle to talk about their needs, but
It's funny, Jess, because Greg then started to call me after having my second, because of course I I learned a lot of this with my first.
And he then would call me the shower ninja because he'd say
Didn't know where you went.
I said, I saw a moment, you were with the kids, so I slipped into the shower and I started to become more assertive.
And I can walk
that similar path with you in the sense of putting everybody else's needs first and forgetting me.
And that was this huge identity shift as well through motherhood of
Who am I?
What do I want?
And I think the hard piece is that I would sometimes sit and wait.
And we do this.
I know moms do this because we're so busy putting everybody else first.
But I would sometimes sit and wait
for Greg to notice that I needed something.
To notice that it's been a week since I've gone out alone.
Or to notice
my increased irritability and for him to say, why don't, you know, I'll take the kids to the park.
Why don't you go do X, Y, or Z?
And it wasn't until I really started to label what it is that I needed
That that resentment started to lift a little bit.
Which is why in couples work, what I say to my couples is, I know you're here because you're looking at the other person right now.
and thinking all the things that they need to do differently.
What we're going to do in our sessions is I'm going to ask you to go inside yourself.
And that's really where the change starts to happen.
And that can feel really uncomfortable because it's like, well, no, if
You know, and I'll I'll think of the times with with Greg.
If he just saw that we were out of diapers and went and got them instead of me having to carry that on my list, or if he would just take the kids to the park.
It was so easy to look outwards
But the real work was looking inwards.
And so yeah, finding those small ways.
And i I always remind people when it comes to boundaries and sharing needs
find the person who you can practice that with.
Is it with that trusted friend?
When they say, hey, let's meet at two and you actually want to meet at 10, can you say, would 10 work better?
That's a practice.
point of you sharing a need.
And then doing it at home as well.
And repeatedly doing it.
And remembering that even if you ask the first time and it doesn't go so well, ask again.
That's what relationships are about is
continuing to try something so that it works for you.
For so that it works for both of you.
I remind couples that we're co-creating.
Yeah, and I love how you talk about that, that interdependence, right?
Versus
dependence.
I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit about that co-creating a relationship and the interdependence.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I find we tend to kind of fall into one or the other.
A lot of people with today's pop psychology terms is
People will come into my therapy room saying, I'm worried I'm codependent.
Right.
There's this fear of this
Emotional fusion.
And so we can tend to sit in one of two positions.
So I'm going to use my hands to demonstrate this.
So one hand is on top of the other hand.
So this is what codependency looks like.
And it's
We lose ourselves in the other person.
And it can be slow and insidious.
And sometimes there are patterns that we're repeating from early childhood relationships.
And it sounds like, oh, you want pizza tonight.
Oh, okay.
Sure, pizza sounds great, even though deep down inside you wanted tacos.
Or your partner says, I absolutely love this cookie, and you're thinking, gosh, my stomach is hurting as I'm eating this cookie.
So it's these small ways where we lose our ability to honor our own thoughts, opinions, desires, wishes, and needs.
Versus what's happening today, and I'm seeing this more with couples, is that people are swinging into hyper-independence
So that sounds like, well, those are your feelings.
You go deal with them.
And that really loses the interconnectedness that we want in our relationships.
So again, using my hands, I'm putting my finger and my thumb together.
This is this like
Two separate circles, we're far apart, we're not coming together.
Those are your feelings, you go do that separately.
This is for you to deal with.
Rather than seeing the goal of a relationship is to balance both autonomy, that's our independence.
That's this idea that I have my own wants, needs, and wishes.
We're balancing that then with interconnectedness with intimacy.
And so if I take my hands, I'm now interlooping them like a chain.
And I do this intentionally because we don't lose our own thoughts and wishes.
We instead then say, I am me and you are you and we are both okay.
And another analogy that can go with this is thinking of a sandbox.
When you are a child, you're in the sandbox, you're playing with cars
And you know, your partner comes over.
So well, you're not a child.
You're an adult playing in a sandbox.
You're an adult in a sandbox and your partner comes over and you say, oh no, no, you can only play with cards in my sandbox.
You nope, you want shovel, you want to build castles with your shovel and your bucket.
You cannot build castles here.
We're only doing cars.
That's not a relationship.
A relationship, an interdependent relationship says.
Okay, let's find a way that we can co-create this sandbox.
Here, let's make a road around here where my cars can go.
And then you can build castles and use your shovel and bucket over here.
That's a both
both space for both of us.
Yeah, and I think that's so beautiful.
And I think when we can get there, so you know, not to keep going back to our story, but I think it's it's resonant for a lot of people.
For a long time I think I allowed myself to be that kind of quieter version of myself in our marriage.
You know, I think that's the people pleasing, you know.
I'll do whatever it takes to keep you happy, to let you have time for your hobbies, to let you have time for your interests
But I'm gonna silently be building resentment because I'm never sharing, you know, what toys I want to play with in the sandbox.
Right.
And and you're so right in the terms of you have to do the deeper work in yourself
For me I had to do the deeper work in myself to even understand what toys I wanted to bring to the sandbox, what I actually wanted.
You know, for me as a someone who struggled historically with people pleasing
That was so deep within me that I had even lost the idea of what it is that I needed and what it is that I wanted.
And so I had to go through my own personal journey of really understanding myself
so that I could bring my understanding of myself into my relationship and feel confident to say things to Scott like, you know what, hey, I'm gonna go take a shower.
And you're gonna be with the kids.
Or I actually get very overstimulated at night.
I know you like all the lights on in the house.
That's kind of your own
baggage from growing up in a very dark house.
By the time it's eight o'clock PM, my sensory system is shot.
I need to have only lamps on.
You know, it's very simple things like that, but I had to learn about myself in order to learn about how to communicate my own needs.
And I want to add to that because then there's this next internal level which says, and after I express what I want to need, can I tolerate the discomfort of possibly upsetting my partner?
Yes.
Because and and that's one of the biggest things that we talk about in my community is what do we do when my partner comes in in a bad mood?
How do I deal with that?
And that codependency is really this internalization, personalization of our partner's mood.
Instead of being able to say, hmm, something's going on for my partner, they're having an experience.
And if they're upset that I said, hey, can you take the
kids to the park.
I need this morning of quiet time because I'm overstimulated.
I'm angry and raging.
It's not feeling good.
Can I tolerate that my partner is, huh, okay, well I don't really want to, but okay
Mm-hmm.
I can validate that in my partner and say, I know this isn't exactly what you wanted on a Saturday morning and this is what I need right now
Let's make sure that what you need later is something we can talk about.
And inside myself, I'm doing all of this regulation around my partner's allowed to be upset.
It's not my job to make my partner happy all of the time.
My needs are important.
And this is the underpinning.
We have a secure bond.
that we can come back to and talk about this, where maybe he comes back and says, hey, you know, this morning was really hard because we didn't plan for that.
Next time could we plan for it?
And I don't take that personally.
And I can say, yeah, you're right.
It was out of the blue.
And I can tell that that was hard for you.
I'm so thankful you did it.
And let's plan for how we can both create this time for ourselves
Mm-hmm.
It's such a dance, right?
So we in the healthiest way, we need both partners to be able to do this work together, right?
And so I'm so grateful.
that I had Scott as a partner and actually I found that it strengthened our marriage so much because I think a lot of the conflict we used to have would be about me not
saying what I need and him saying, Well, I would love to actually hear your opinion on this.
You know, don't just agree with me or don't just say this because I'm saying this.
You know, what do you actually feel?
And so I felt
when I actually started to say, look, this is what I need from you, or this is why I feel this way, or this is how my sensory system works, that was very healthy for our relationship and something he had been craving from me for a long time.
It's just I couldn't get there.
Hey friends, so at pickup last week our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
And he said to our daughter, Thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from our new body safety and consent course at Nurtur First.
So this new body safety and consent course is taught by me.
So Jess, if you listen to this podcast, you know me.
I'm a child therapist and a mom of three, and I have taught body safety and consent education for years.
This course takes all my years of experience teaching this education and gives you calm, age-appropriate language for body parts, consent, and boundaries.
You'll learn how to teach your kids that no means no, you'll learn how to teach them to read facial cues, you'll talk about safe and unspeakable.
Safe touch, and you'll even teach them about their uh oh feeling.
There's guidance inside this course for the real life stuff, like tickling that goes too far, and even the difference between a secret and a surprise.
We made this course at Nurture First because research shows that body safety education helps kids speak up.
up sooner and we want that for our family, for Scott and I, but also for you.
So check the course out at nurturefirst.
com/slash body safety and to save 10% use the code
robot unicorn.
And just full disclosure here, we are the creators of this course and we're so proud of it.
But I also know that for many people
there's a mismatch.
There's one person in the relationship doing the work and the other person who is unable to do it.
So for those people, how do you support them and how do you help them?
Yeah, I always remind people that if you are ready and willing to do the work, keep going.
Because you are going to be impacting your children as well.
And when one person changes in a dynamic, there's the potential for the whole system to change.
And you and I know that from a systemic perspective of how we work with families, how we work with couples, is to remember that you can do this work.
It's not going to mean your partner is going to change over time immediately, but they will get there.
They could get there.
And so, for example,
That cycle that Greg and I would get stuck in.
I would get angry and sharp.
He would get defensive.
I would up the ante and he would shut down.
And this is a very familiar cycle for a lot of people.
If I continue to go angry, we're gonna guarantee he'll get defensive.
But when I started to shift out of my own anger and into what I actually needed and what was happening for me.
It gave him a chance to hear something different.
And initially it was confusing.
Initially he would get defensive again and I would slow it down.
And say, what just happened there?
What did you hear me say?
And it was and I know a lot of people say, okay, Dr.
Tracy, you're the couples therapist.
You can just
But we can do it with our partners as well.
We can show up differently.
So then instead of the anger, which sounds like you never help, I'm always cleaning up after the kids.
I did bedtime.
I did bathtime
You're always on your phone.
Instead, if I slow it down and say, okay, what's this about for me?
Ah, interesting.
I'm feeling like I don't matter.
I feel like I'm not seeing.
I'm carrying all of this.
So I go to Greg and I say, you know, just recently I feel like I'm taking on a lot of things and I'm feeling unseen in all of this.
And I think right now what I'm needing is for you to recognize
what I'm doing.
I know it's not possible for us to shift the load at this time.
This one thinking of when I was off on on leave for that year, but
you know, can you see what I'm doing?
And when he would then respond with defensiveness in our old pattern, he'd go into the, so you're saying I'm not enough?
You're saying I'm not doing enough?
I would have to slow it down and say
If we're talking about your enoughness, I want to hear that.
But first, can we stay in this spot right here where I'm saying, do you see all that I'm doing?
Yeah.
I think that's huge.
And
I I can relate to that too.
I think an area, so a few weeks ago one of my kids had a birthday party.
And for the birthday party, you know, I planned the party.
We went horseback riding.
I took the kids horseback riding.
I got all the everything we needed for the party, you know, planned out the cake, the decorations, all of those things.
Then the next day we had family over.
I planned the whole family party and I start to notice this familiar feeling, you know, of resentment building up.
Now
Did I ask Scott for help with any of those things?
No.
I took them all on myself.
So that's the first thing.
But my question is, do you enjoy doing some of these things?
Or a lot of a lot of moms that I work with will say, I don't want you to take on this task because I actually really enjoy doing it.
Mallet, I'll keep going.
Yes, no, totally.
Yeah, I was gonna say that too, like I didn't ask him for help because I wanted to do it.
You know, as a working mom
who's often away from my kids from work, like birthday parties or special things like that.
That's usually my thing.
I want to take it on.
I want to show them that that's like my thing to do with you.
And
After a weekend of doing it all, I felt like I was cleaning up our family party and everyone had left and Scott was on the couch just playing with the kids and and I'm cleaning up the stuff from the party.
I start to notice that old feeling come up, right?
And this is where you can see growth.
And instead of just getting angry or rage cleaning, that used to be my signal to Scott that I was angry at him.
Classic.
I actually just said, hey, look, I'm I'm starting to notice a feeling for myself that I'm feeling a little bit unseen for the amount of effort and time and work I put into this weekend to make this magical for our daughter
And I'm noticing that I'm cleaning up the kitchen by myself and you're having this special time that I would love to also have with the girls.
Yeah.
And I'm wondering, do you think you could just help me?
Let's clean this up together and then from there, let's just have a nice evening.
And it was just so simple.
And he said, Yeah, you're right.
You know what?
Thank you.
I I didn't notice, I didn't say thank like I didn't say thank you, but I have noticed of of how much effort you put in.
We had a hug and then we just moved forward with our evening.
And it just showed me that's so much pro progress.
That's what you're saying.
Instead of defensiveness, we can have this conversation.
Can I do you mind if I break down what you did in there?
Yeah.
So let's slow this down.
So first, the first thing is you had to be self-aware.
So you're bringing awareness into the moment.
And that often is
Pausing and taking a beat and saying, what's actually happening for me here?
And then there's a reflection piece in here.
And I think the reflection piece is often about
Can I go inside myself and say what's being stirred up?
Not personalizing what my partner is doing.
So we're depersonalizing what's happening.
Him sitting with the kids, it's not about you.
It's not that
He thinks you should clean up solo.
Those are the stories we tell ourselves, right?
It's not that you always have to be the one to clean.
None of that.
So understanding what's happening there and then being able to communicate and you did.
And the communication piece is not the
And the Gottmans do such a a great job, all their research around the four horsemen of the apocalypse, right?
You're not criticizing, you're not saying, You're always with the kids and never helping me.
I guess oh, I guess I'll just clean up again by myself.
That's an attack on the care on their care.
character, but you're not getting defensive.
You're not being contemptuous, which is like, of course I'll clean up Scott.
You just enjoy your warm coffee over there, right?
And then you're not stonewalling.
Then that's
Stonewalling can really be felt in a family where you shut down and he kind of notices it.
He's like, hey Jess, you good?
And you're like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, nothing's wrong.
Don't worry about it.
That's just that shutdown.
And instead then you're saying to him, here's my experience.
Here's what I need
And all because you were able to slow down and notice what that trigger point is.
And I use trigger as a loose word here.
It's something happening inside of you.
And so when everything is spiraling and so fast paced for us moms or parents in general, it is that
What's the cue?
Is it that I'm clenching my jaw?
For me, it was always the heap through my body.
Is it that my shoulders are up?
Or is it like this like short breath or my spinning thoughts?
That might be your cue.
And the cue then is slow down.
Just take a minute.
What's happening here?
Yeah, I that's beautiful.
I think that will be so helpful for parents.
Like just those steps, right?
And and to know too it takes time.
Like it took me time to get there with Scott and I will say our our relationship is better than it ever has been.
Also, I noticed how you said three years postpartum.
I mean that's where we are right now
Yeah.
But I love that you called it three years postpartum because we think postpartum is like, you know, four or five months.
It's not.
It takes a long time to even recover relationally from that experience of having a baby.
And I know we haven't touched on it, so I'll just kind of put a marker here for our next one-day conversation, but the piece around intimacy as well.
Yes.
is that so much of our connection, the way we feel emotionally, is also tied into how we feel
sexually and how we want to connect with our partners.
And that I think really is a conversation around identifying stressors, having permission, giving reassurance, redefining sexuality together as parents.
Yeah, if we have time, I I would love to briefly talk about that because I do think that's a topic that comes up all the time.
Um specifically in the moms that I work with, even my own mom friends, you know
This is something we talk about and for a lot of moms, and I think this can this can go both ways, there's this struggle to want to be intimate again after postpartum, and it's not not everyone feels that way.
But like sexually intimate I think can feel very vulnerable.
There's a lot of reasons why that can be hard.
And I think a lot of parents struggle with their partner maybe is is trying to initiate something and they just turn them down
and over time being turned down so often then the partner stops trying to initiate things and it and I think it it can be lost.
So I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to that as well.
Yeah, the postpartum period is a delicate time in terms of how you are doing mentally, emotionally, how you are coping after giving birth
and the changes within yourself and your body.
And sex is a vulnerable experience.
And one of the worst things
that I hear is when women go for their six week checkup and they're cleared.
And what that has been translated into is you are cleared to have sex.
And I encourage couples to remove the pressure to have sex as in ending an orgasm
So oftentimes couples define intimacy as penis and vagina and ending in orgasms.
So thinking
heterosexual relationships.
And the challenge with this is this narrow definition then means we're either having sex
or we're not and we're losing all of the gray in between.
And that pressure, anytime you put pressure on the desire and arousal system, that
experience of desire is going to flatline.
You cannot go into intimacy and having sex with with a backpack of bricks.
So if you feel your partner sitting beside you and they only come to hug you because they want to have intercourse, that pressure is a brick in your backpack.
You're not going to want to.
And so during this time, I think what's really important for couples is it's not that we want to go back to the sex life we had before.
Maybe you didn't even like it before, but now we want to redefine what that's going to look like
Especially during that first year when you're more likely to be sleep deprived, or first two years depending, or three years, depending on when you're in sleep.
And that's a whole other conversation.
But you know, one of our kids is now just
solidifying their sleep.
And I wish someone had said to me, Tracy, just buckle up for eight years.
You'll cut it.
It might be a while.
I feel you on that.
It might be a while.
It's still rare for me to have all three kids sleeping through every single night.
Like usually someone's up at some point.
Yes.
And then of course the other piece is what do we do with sex?
Most
People save it for the last thing on their to-do list.
And at the end of the day, when you've tucked the kids into bed
You've picked up all the toys, you've done the dishes, you've prepared the lunches for the next day, you found the splash pants that were missing and cause you know rain is coming the next day.
Do you have any energy left for sex?
And most people don't
And so it really does require people then to redefine what sex looks like.
How do we also create physical intimacy that feels good because we want pleasure and play in there as well?
And then how do we actually get intentional?
about sex together.
Two points to that.
I think something that's not often talked about is how your birth experience can impact your sexual desire for those who had birth
trauma or any trauma relating up to giving birth in pregnancy.
I think that was something that I didn't expect because my first pregnancy was very traumatic.
I had preterm labor and then I ended up
having all these very like traumatic checks and they would always be checking to see if I was dilated and after I couldn't figure out like I had the sexual desire was absolutely gone and it wasn't until I could unpack the trauma that I had around the birth experience
And I a lot of women I talk to have also felt that was missed, right?
Like why why can't I get there?
Well, sometimes you've been through trauma that can feel like an assault to your body.
Yes.
And then the second piece, this is just something I'm curious about.
So I feel like I hear a lot about the different types of desire.
So responsive desire versus spontaneous desire.
Is there research to back that up?
And if so
What does that look like for a couple?
Yeah, we we have these two different pathways to desire.
So yes, there's research and I love and recommend Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski for any woman to have that and also to read it with your partner.
She also has a second book called Come Together, and there's a really great piece in there around how we enter into desire.
So let's talk about those desire systems.
There's two pathways to get to desire.
And we can talk about it from how people experience desire, but we can also talk about it in terms of the seasons or stages of your relationship.
So responsive desire is just that.
It's responding
to stimulation.
It often starts in the body and then your brain comes online.
So I say to couples, lay together naked, no pressure, not to have sex, but just put bodies together.
And then quiet your mind and see what happens inside your body.
And it's going to respond to stimulation.
Desire kicks in, desire then triggers arousal.
And it maybe leads to a guess.
Spontaneous desire is just that.
It comes from out of nowhere.
And it often happens, it happens in our brain first.
And then that message goes to our body.
What I've noticed about some moms is that during the day when they're, you know, maybe having a quiet moment, they have spontaneous desire.
It's 10 a.
m.
, kids are having a nap
You're not doing anything, you've sat down, given yourself a moment and a pause, it pops into your brain.
Oh, isn't that interesting?
Oh, I remember that moment where we just had the whatever that was.
But then by the end of the night, you have the laundry basket on the bed.
The kids have had epic meltdowns
Dinner dishes are still there.
And now your body is just not tuned in because your brain is going through that high mental load.
There's great research from Dr.
Rosemary Basson, she's a psychiatrist in BC, and she talks about how the women's desire response cycle is different than men's.
And part of what gets women to that yes is not necessarily just, hey, do you want to?
Or it's Wednesday night, we should.
It's more of a, how's our physical intimacy?
How's our emotional intimacy?
And how is the the weight of the mental load?
How are we managing all of that in our relationship so that we can feel
feel connected to our partner, to then feel that sense of arousal and then desire comes afterwards.
Yeah, I think it's so important to understand that.
And I hope all partners can listen to that and then have empathy.
empathy for their partner as well, understanding that maybe the way that they're aroused is different and there's a way to support still having a sexual relationship even if
the way you get there is different than maybe it has even in the past.
It speaks to initiation as well.
How are we starting this?
and is the starting moment.
So someone with more spontaneous desire might think it's okay to go over and grab your partner in some way.
Whereas for them, that's maybe a buildup throughout the whole day to them putting your bodies together
Or how can I then get the laundry basket out of the room?
How can I create a scene?
How can I make sure we had good food that day so then our bodies are going to be more open to it?
And I often encourage people, if you find yourself
more in the responsive desire place, instead of saying no to intimacy, agree to put your bodies together.
Agree to quiet minds.
Agree to whatever that is for you.
Is it your partner giving you a scalp massage?
Is it them
playing on your arm while you close your eyes?
Is it the spooning and cuddling in bed?
Whatever that looks like.
Just giving that a chance before then having to go into the
It's a yes or a no tonight.
And the other thing I remind moms as well is in heterosexual relationships, if your husband has an erection, it doesn't mean that you have to have sex.
It means he's also experiencing pleasure and how nice that is to know that you can both have that without necessarily having to have an orgasm to release that.
Yeah, I think that's really important and gonna be helpful for parents as well
As we wrap up, I have a million more questions.
I'm gonna have to have you back on.
Uh, but I think this is great.
We really focused on that postpartum time and
It's such an important time and I feel like on Robot Unicorn we haven't been talking about that a lot lately and I just know that people have this hunger to to hear more and to feel seen in their postpartum experiences, especially in their relationships
As we wrap up, is there anything you wish that every couple would know as they enter into this season of their lives?
Don't put your relationship on the back burner.
I think that is one of the biggest things I teach couples is I know that you are stretched.
I know that you are tired and sleep deprived.
I also know that connection is about intentionality and it's the small things frequently.
And one of the biggest things you can do together is after those hard parenting moments to be able to flop on the couch and look over at each other and say
Wow, we're in this together.
I know we're not having those long vacations away.
I know we're not going on date nights once a week.
I know we're not having the sex that we want to.
And I'm looking forward to us being there
And here's then what we can do together.
And so thinking of those touch points throughout the day, that's how you build connection.
That's how you strengthen your bond.
It's the I'll pour coffee for you in the morning.
I'm gonna turn and hug you before I open up my phone or get up for the day.
It's the when you come home after work, greeting your partner first.
Those are all of these small moments that say to your partner.
I see you, you matter to me, you're important to me.
And that at our core is what we really need in our relationships.
That's so beautiful.
And I love that idea of the the small moments, the tiny moments.
And
And doing it together, so for each other.
And I think sometimes we forget, and this is like it reminds me of parenting too, like a lot of the things I teach to parents, is tiny moments with your kids too.
Yeah.
I think what what we can forget and what I have forgotten over the years is that when I do something nice for Scott, it actually is reciprocal.
Like it actually feels good for me too.
And when you're feeling resentful, the last thing you really feel like doing is, you know, let me make the coffee the way he likes it this morning.
But when I do, when I do that, when I make the coffee the way he likes it, or when I
Even do something simple like make his side of the bed the way he likes to have it made, not just quickly the way I like to, you know, quickly make the bed in the morning.
It actually matters to me too.
And I end up feeling that reciprocal joy and closeness because I'm doing that thing for my partner.
And when it that can go both ways, it's so small, but that can really build your relationship over
And when we feel secure and like we're in this together, everything else, it's not easier, but you feel more resilient to everything else.
So when you're having a hard season with parenting, you know, I think of when our kids turned seven and the anger that showed up that I wasn't ready for or the
assertion into their autonomy at four and all the other things when we feel solid and connected we can weather the storm in a much easier and better way
Absolutely.
Well, thank you so much, Tracy.
It was so great to have you.
Can you let listeners know where they can find you?
Absolutely.
One of my favorite things about
podcast conversations is when you come over and tell me what stood out for you today.
What are you going to try or have a conversation with your partner about or the
piece of wisdom that maybe you want to share with them.
Let me know what that is.
Send me a DM over on Instagram.
My handle's at Dr.
Tracy D.
And then all of my resources are available on my website, drtracyd.
com.
Fantastic.
And of course we'll link you in the show notes so people can just
click on you and go straight over to your Instagram page.
Please follow Dr.
Tracy.
I mean I've mentioned a few times how your content has helped me so much and even I'll message you asking you questions about couples therapy and it's just been such a great
So thank you so much and thank you for this conversation.
I really hope it's helpful for the listeners today.
Thank you for having me here, Jeff.
Hey friends, thank you so much for listening to today's episode.
We are glad that you are here.
If you enjoyed today's episode and found it interesting, we'd really appreciate it if you'd leave a
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