Beyond the CMS - A Content Management Podcast | Getting Off Legacy CMS the Right Way: A Live AMA with Contentful's Luke Wertz and Nick Switzer

Legacy CMS platforms lock your front end and back end together, so every new channel becomes its own project. In this live AMA, Chris Bryce sits down with Luke Wertz and Nick Switzer of Contentful to talk about what it actually takes to move off WordPress, Drupal, Sitecore, or AEM and into a modern, composable content stack.

Luke manages Contentful's commercial mid-market solution engineering team in North America. Nick manages the enterprise side from Denver. Between them they have close to four decades in the CMS space, and they walk through Contentful's founding story in Berlin, where updating a single word in a native mobile app used to mean shipping a whole new version of the app.

We get into the honest difference between legacy, monolithic, and composable platforms, what a migration actually looks like in 2026, why content modeling is the foundation that makes everything downstream faster, why Contentful stays rigid on structured JSON delivery while building flexible tools for editors, and how Contentful's AI Actions and API first management layer let agents like Claude create, scale, and govern content directly inside the platform.

(00:00) - Welcome to Episode 45: the "Car Guys" origin story
(01:29) - Meet Luke Wertz and Nick Switzer of Contentful
(03:53) - Contentful's founding story
(06:18) - A Dotfusion case study: one hub for app, web, and in-store screens
(06:43) - Defining headless: content infrastructure over jargon
(08:05) - Headless in plain English
(09:33) - The developer view: content models and the job of your content
(13:05) - Where a Contentful site actually lives
(16:49) - Legacy, composable, and monolith: mapping the CMS market
(18:53) - Why teams migrate once content needs to do something
(20:38) - Choosing Contentful when your team is lean
(22:09) - AI inside the platform versus AI acting on the platform
(23:09) - API first for delivery and for management
(25:17) - Live question: have we passed the tipping point for composable?
(27:10) - Rigid on delivery, flexible for humans
(29:24) - Claude and Contentful: a week of content ops down to an hour
(31:11) - What's next: agentic analytics and closing the loop
(33:40) - The next two problems: scale and governance
(35:50) - A third M for the roadmap: agentic migration
(36:49) - Wrap-up: see you in Episode 46

Click here to watch a video of this episode.

Links: Contentful: https://www.contentful.com Dotfusion (Contentful Partner): https://dotfusion.com/services/contentful-development-agency Chris on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cbryce Luke Wertz on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lukewertz/ Nick Switzer on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickswit/

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Bryce

CEO and founding partner of Dotfusion, a Toronto B Corp specializing in agentic content operations and AI-ready composable platforms. Host of Beyond the CMS.

What is Beyond the CMS - A Content Management Podcast?

We are all about Content Management Platforms.

Welcome to "Beyond the CMS," the podcast where big ideas, insightful conversations, and industry-leading voices converge to redefine digital content experiences. Each episode, we sit down with influential thought leaders and innovators from the most prominent CMS platforms—including Contentful, Storyblok, Agility, Magnolia, and more—to explore emerging trends, groundbreaking technologies, and transformative strategies shaping the future of content management.

Our guests are industry experts, visionaries, and key executives who dive deep into topics such as headless architectures, personalization, AI-driven content strategies, composable solutions, and best practices for delivering seamless digital experiences at scale. Whether you're a marketer, developer, product manager, or simply passionate about digital innovation, join us as we uncover actionable insights, discuss bold ideas, and provide a unique behind-the-scenes look into the ever-evolving CMS landscape.

#contentmanagementsystem #contentmanagement #headlesscms #contentful #agilitycms #storyblok #cms

All right.

We are live.

Amazing.

Uh, we are on episode
45 of Beyond the CMS.

Uh, the show started, um, with
the intent to bring the leading,

uh, thought leaders in the content
industry together to have, uh, open

conversations around the state of content
operations now and into the future.

Uh, and I was inspired, um, by the Car
Guys actually, who I listen to on NPR,

and I just really thought it was cool
that people could call in and get their

solution to their carburetor problems done
over the airwaves, uh, and have a friendly

conversation as well, and, and I think,
um, we've just got an amazing lineup

of great thought leaders here today.

Um, so just before I introduce special
guest for the week, wanna say thanks to

everyone who's making some time during
their lunchtime in the Eastern Time Zone,

and breakfast over on the West Coast.

Uh, we're live on LinkedIn right now.

The way the show works is if you have
any questions for any of us, please

leave something in the comments.

The technology on our end, um,
should have your comments show up,

and we'll be happy to answer them.

If that doesn't work for some
reason, we'll be looking through the

comments and we'll get back to you.

Um, or if you're watching this in
the future, leave us a comment, give

us a like, we really appreciate it.

Um, I'm Chris Bryce, I'm the
founder and CEO of Dotfusion.

We are a Contentful partner, and today
we've got Luke Wertz and Nick Switzer

from the solution engineering team
from Contentful joining us, uh, to

share their thoughts on, uh, what's
happening in the world of content.

And I know you guys have engineering
backgrounds, and you're kind of bridging

over to solutions, and that's really a
great broad scope of information that,

that you might be able to share with us.

So, uh, maybe Luke, um, maybe introduce
yourself and, uh, then we'll kind of get

going and have a really wonderful chat.

Amazing.

Thank you so much for having us, Chris.

Uh, it's a, it's a real
privilege to be here.

Uh, I'm Luke Wertz.

I manage the, uh, commercial
mid-market solution engineering team

for Contentful here in North America.

And yeah, as you mentioned, I spent,
uh, a whole bunch of years, about 20

years, on the implementation side,
so, uh, helping implement a wide

variety of CMSs for a whole lot of
different, uh, types of customers.

And, uh, now I get to, get to help at
the, uh, solutioning stage, so pretty

early in planning and, uh, thinking
about how to solve specific business

challenges, uh, with technology Amazing.

Uh, Nick, welcome.

I know you're in the,
in the high mountains.

Uh, what's going on?

Yeah, thanks.

Thanks, Chris.

Great to be here.

Um, yeah, joining from Denver, um, one
of Contentful's headquarters cities,

so we've got a great presence here.

I think, you know, li- like you said,
and then honestly I would just kind

of be repeating a lot of what Luke
had to say if, you know, I told you a

little bit about my background, 'cause
I think we've had the privilege of

kind of having our careers overlap
for the last, like, 15 or so years.

But like Luke, you know, spent
about 20 years in the CMS space.

Um, ran an implementation team for quite
a while before, um, coming to Contentful,

and now, you know, like Luke said,
sit on the pre-sales side focused on

consulting, solving business problems.

My team specifically, uh, supports our
enterprise customers and prospects.

And, um, I think it's important that I
set ex- expectations here that I'm not

the carburetor guy, so let's- We'll,
we'll point those questions towards Luke.

I think he's, he's doing
more of that type of work.

Okay.

I'll talk carburetors, but yeah.

Awesome.

Can't wait.

Um, maybe I'll, I'll kind of, uh,
ask one or the other of you questions

as, um, to, to keep it simple.

But Luke, um, do you wanna just talk a
little bit about Contentful's history?

Uh, I think that the idea was created
in Berlin, I believe, is that right?

Yeah.

Can you just share a little bit
about, like, what is Contentful?

Yeah, absolutely.

So Contentful, uh, as you mentioned,
we, uh, we, we were founded in Berlin,

Berlin-based, uh, though we have
offices, uh, all over the world now.

And, um, it really, it really started with
a simple idea, which was, uh, back when

Sasha and Paolo founded Contentful, in
order to update content in a native mobile

app, like on a, on an iPhone or an Android
phone, you had to release a whole new

version of the app in order to just update
the words, the, the pictures, the content.

And ha- the overhead there becomes
really, really big for teams, right?

As they're thinking about now
needing to manage multiple versions

of apps that are out there.

So the idea was how do we, how do we
make it easier for teams to manage

the words, the pictures, the, the
digital experiences, and be able to

deploy them from a centralized location
kind of regardless of the channel.

So even though it kind of started
off as a, as a native mobile app

thing, it caught on really quickly
in a lot of different spaces.

So normal websites that you might think
of leverage this kind of architecture and

technology, uh, at scale, m- mobile apps,
digital signage, at basically anywhere

where you need to get messaging to a
device that's connected to the internet,

chances are taking a headless approach
or using a platform like Contentful to do

that is gonna make it easier, it's gonna
scale better, streamline the process.

It's, it's a really cool solution to a
problem that was very emergent, uh, back

in the, in the early 2010s, uh, when
Contentful was, was founded Interesting.

And, um, from our experience and to
kind of, uh, align with what you just

said, one of our larger Contentful
projects was for, uh, a very large

pizza chain, and the solution required
just that: a centralized content hub,

let's say, for a mobile app and for a
website, and for the future plumbing for

display screens at the retail locations.

You know, like- Mm-hmm … it doesn't
really matter when you use this

kind of, let's call it composable
or headless architecture, let's say.

You can really publish anywhere, but you
don't have to change the core f- kind

of foundation of where your content is.

Um, I kinda use this word, and I have
a collection now of different people

giving me definitions of headless, 'cause
I'm still asked this today, and I think

it's still kind of an industry term.

Um, the folks who are our customers
and who, who watch this show now and

in the future are typically marketing
folks, CMOs, VPs of marketing,

and they're not so concerned of,
like, what the tech stack is.

They're just really concerned
about the, the easiness of

their publishing workflows.

Um, but maybe Nick, do you want to, uh,
give me your best definition for the

record of, of how you define headless?

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

And, and, you know, maybe I'll start by
reframing it just a little bit 'cause

I think, y- you know, our- Our founder,
Paolo, uh, said something interesting on a

public internal meeting we had, just that,
like, he never really liked the idea of

headless because it defined more what the
platform is not rather than what it is.

And so, you know, I think we, we like
to use terminology like, you know,

content infrastructure was something
that we came across, like, quite a few

years ago, and I think now we hear the
term composable a lot in the market.

And I think not so much to
say, "Oh, Chris, you're wrong.

Don't use that language," because
I mean, it's a totally- No

valid term.

But I think more just, like,
acknowledging that there's some

interchangeable terms that all talk
about, I think, similar value, right?

Where the idea is really, I, I like
content infrastructure a lot because

I think it feels particularly relevant
in the world that we're headed

into and really starting to live in
today, where you're delivering and

managing content with, you know, with
agents, with lots of different tools.

You know, deli- we're thinking
a lot about AEO, we're thinking

a lot about agentic assembly.

And really to get back to your original
question, what, what is headless?

Like, headless is all about separating
the content from the presentation, right?

And so that's impactful in those
areas because it lets you build your

content as clearly structured elements
with very clearly governed, um…

with clear governance and
processes around them, right?

That are gonna make it a lot
easier to build those use

cases you're talking about.

Like, you know, quick serve
restaurants is a great example, right?

'Cause that's one we have a lot of
customers in that space where, simple

example, you've got your promo for,
you know, your Tuesday lunch special.

That's gonna look a little
different on your website.

It's gonna look a little
different on your mobile app.

It's gonna look a little different
on your drive up order screens.

And you're probably gonna have
regional restaurants that wanna

localize that as well, right?

And the real power of headless is you
manage that content in one place, you

update it in one place, and it gets pushed
out to all of those different channels.

And, you know, you can know that
it's the right content, it's properly

governed, and, you know, the folks
on the other end of that, those

experiences, regardless of where
they are, are gonna have a consistent

way of engaging with your brand.

Awesome.

Um, I'm kind of, uh, bending the
conversation around, uh, kind of

simple terminology, and then we'll
get into some developer speak too,

because this is really important
for devs who are exploring kind of

different ways to, to ship and deliver.

But maybe Luke, do you wanna just
describe a little bit more about the

headless architecture itself and the
idea behind microservices and kind of

the greater developer kind of speak
around the opportunities with Contentful?

Absolutely.

Um, and at the risk of going, going
too nerdy, please hold me back.

Bring it.

No, bring it on.

Hold me back if, uh- We're- Right?

Yeah, we're all nerds.

The, a- again, rooting this in
the, in, in the value, right?

Like, why do you make this choice?

Because at the end of the day-

At the risk, I don't know if I can
say this, like, does your architecture

matter if it's doing its job?

Uh, right?

Like, at the end of the day, we're not
choosing these things for funsies, and

we're not choosing them out of ideologies.

We're choosing them because we
need to accomplish something.

And so when we talk about, about
microservices or a headless architecture

It, what it is enabling people to do
is f- shift the focus away so much from

what is the content, uh, in abstraction,
and really center the conversation

around what is the job of the content.

Mm.

Because once you start focusing on, what,
what do I need this content to do, chances

are where you're presenting it, you
need the content to do the same job- Mm

… regardless of whether it's being presented
on a website or native mobile app.

And so working back from this idea of
your content is a job, can you articulate

what the job of your content is?

You can, cool.

Then you can probably express that
in a content model, and now we're

starting to get into some of the
underlying plumbing that goes into this.

Mm.

So now we have this abstract
idea of a thing that helps you

describe the job of the content.

Once you have that, cool.

Now we can abstract this one level further
and create instances of that content.

So, uh, you can create multiple types of
this content, and you're managing it in

a centralized place, but you're able to
distribute it to many different places.

Now, that final sort of, like, last mile
of delivery, whether that be to, you

know, the mobile app or the website,
regardless of what that last mile is,

that has a lot of influence on the, the
everything around the content, right?

That, that experience as a whole.

But the job of the, of the
editorial team, the marketing

team, the, these folks have lots of
different titles these days, right?

But the, the folks who are in charge
of thinking about what are the words-

Mm … and what's the job that they have,
they get to concentrate that effort in one

place and have that impact felt widely.

Mm, mm-hmm.

So there's my best shot at a non-technical
definition of a headless architecture.

That is awesome.

And I'm, I'm actually kind of role
playing through some conversations I've

had recently, also trying to describe,
like, why to consider this composable

architecture to a very non-technical team.

Um, I was lucky I had a stakeholder
who was a developer, and I was

kind of put on the spot and they're
like, "Well, what do you recommend?"

Yeah.

And I kind of avoided any platform
specific, but I said like, "Next and

React, it's awesome for so many reasons,"
and that's kind of a fundamental, you

know, decision that you can make powering
Contentful with that kind of stack.

Um, something else came up in
that conversation, which is

like, "Where do we host it?"

You know, they're, I think they've got
a, I don't know, a DreamHost server

or something like that, and it's like,
well, you don't really host anymore,

but you kinda do, and it, like, kind
of, you know, there's this static site

generation and, like, an edge network.

I think, um, you guys might be able to
help clarify some of that stuff as well.

Nick, can you, uh, take a shot
at, like, how do you answer, like,

"Where is a Contentful site hosted?"

Yeah.

Yeah, and, uh, I mean, piggybacking
on some of what Luke was saying

earlier, I think, like, it's, it's
easy to get lost in the weeds of that.

And like, yes, there are important
conversations to be had around,

you know, your CDN configuration,
how are you thinking about cache

invalidation, and what's your front
end framework, that you can really

get lost in the weeds with those.

But, like, ultimately, you know, what,
what is the outcome you care about?

And when you think about it from,
you know, a technical perspective, I

think from that side of the world, it
really comes down to, like, getting

to market faster and operating
more efficiently as a business.

And I think, you know, as someone,
again, I know Luke and Chris, you can

speak to this firsthand too, but as
someone who worked in the world of, you

know, self-hosted, manually updated,
like, open source CMS, we all know the,

the personal pain, but also, like, the
organizational investment and resource

time and loss of velocity that goes
into, you know, m- maintaining hosting.

I mean, like, we go way back.

You talk about, like, applying
Linux patches and monitoring for

security updates and, you know,
applying core platform updates,

applying plugin or module updates.

You know, there's, there's a whole world
of work that just stacks up there, right?

And I think, you know, when you talk
about, you know, where is it hosted

from a purely Contentful standpoint,
like, it's a SaaS platform, right?

And I think there's just a huge benefit
to SaaS in the fact that, like, you

know, we have a dedicated infra team.

We have a dedicated security team,
and, you know, we have battle-tested

APIs and CDN configurations that
perform at scale and, you know,

deliver literally billions and billions
of requests, like, every month.

Um, and that is all work that
your team is no longer doing.

And when I say your team, I'm
talking about our joint customers,

our joint prospective customers.

That's all work they are no longer taking
on, where those teams can now focus

on higher value opportunities, right?

Like, you know, how do we build net
new things that drive the business

forward in more meaningful ways.

So again, at, at the risk of, you know,
not completely, like, talking around

your question, I think I just wanna
make it clear that, like, where is

it hosted is, like, we handle all of
that from the Contentful standpoint,

and I think, like, we've got a lot
of great partners in the industry.

I know we talk a lot about Vercel in
particular as you think about the broader

network that I think brings a really
similar value proposition to front end

hosting and delivery, and ultimately
all focused on that same outcome of

let's help you get to market faster.

Let's help you be more operationally
efficient and just, you know, do more

with less and, you know, create the,
the value and revenue growth that

your company ultimately cares about.

Super cool.

I just, I was speaking to our,
our, uh, COO, and she's like,

"Dude, I just, like, published a
site to Vercel using Claude Code."

I'm like, "The world is
so awesome right now."

It's like, wow, that's
really cool, you know?

Yeah.

So, um, yeah, shout out to those
guys, and, uh, they're just really

making delivery of ideas, like,
quick, easy, and manageable.

Um, now I guess when we talk about
CMSs, 'cause this is a show sort of

about CMSs, they kind of fall into
maybe three kinds of categories.

Say there's these kind of maybe legacy,
I think is a fair term, um, kind of a

WordPress, Drupal kind of ideas that
have been around and matured through

open source communities over time.

Um, and then I guess in the middle we
have kind of headless, composable, super

fast, light, quick to get to market.

And then there's a term that I'm not
sure is quite right, but monolithic

seems to be the ones that is getting
passed down the industry more heavily.

Heavy infrastructure, um, does a
lot of things, sometimes a little

bit more than people are using.

Um, I wanna just kind of understand where
Contentful stands kind of in, in the

range of these types of platforms, and
then we'll get into, you know, a question

that always comes up from folks that are
looking to move into a more modern stack

like Contentful is migration itself.

But, um, yeah, maybe Luke, you know,
what are, what are your thoughts

on how I've kind of defined that
ecosystem, and maybe add some color to

it, uh, if you feel it's appropriate?

I think that's totally fair, right?

So these, these solutions They emerged
to solve specific problems, right?

And, uh, when you look at the, the, the
self-hosted, the legacy, the Druples, the

WordPresses, uh, th- you know, they really
existed to try to lower the barrier to

entry, get, uh, you know, get, get folks
who are maybe, uh, just starting out,

uh, and need to, need to get something up
and running, and need a lot of community

support in order to be able to do that.

Like, that makes, that makes some sense.

Uh, it, it's a choice, right?

It comes with, uh, pros and cons.

Um, when I think about sort of
the, that continuum, the, the, uh,

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