Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
In the Hidden Money podcast, you'll learn how you can legally use the tax code to your financial advantage. There’s wealth inside the tax code. Taxes aren’t the enemy.
Most people hate taxes (and pay more than they should). But when you view taxes only as an evil expense, you miss out on legal ways to grow your wealth. Unlock the secrets to saving tax and building wealth with the Hidden Money Podcast! 🎧💰 Hosted by Mike Pine and Kevin Schneider.
Logan Sugarman: The app
overload is universal.
It's a universal problem across every
aspect of human existence right now.
We are focusing on the HR
experience, which is manifold.
If every app on your phone was an
app for your company that had some
sort of value to you as an employee,
that's the problem we're solving.
Like you've downloaded all
those apps for a reason.
You just don't know when and
where or why to use them.
Adrian Gessen: As an average,
there's 54 applicants for every
job that we have available.
That's 53 people raising their hands
saying, "Hey, I need an opportunity.
Hey, I need help.
I need some place that I could
feel trust, I could be believed
in, and I could feel special."
Michelle Roberts: We had an individual
that was facing homelessness.
He did not have the money for
a deposit for finding a new
apartment in this new community.
We turned to the Refresh App
to find help in this area.
And we found a local church who had a
new program that assisted with rent,
and we were not aware of the program.
Connected them.
He was able to get that.
Stopped him from a homeless situation.
Adrian Gessen: We cannot help everyone,
but everyone can help someone.
Mike Pine: Welcome, everyone.
Kevin and I are excited to
introduce to you a amazing team
of people that we've been blessed
to be able to work with this year.
Um, we're ta- gonna talk about an
awesome opportunity that we're gonna
invest in, and you can too, and
also has some great tax benefits.
But what is it?
We've told a lot of our clients
about this opportunity already,
Kevin, but they don't understand.
Like, it's hard to communicate the
power of this investment, the impact
it's providing for, um, people in need.
And we've got the CEO of the company,
and, and we've got the CEO of, of
Goodwill, and we've got Adrian, who's
kinda working everything in between.
And we're just excited
to, to introduce this.
But Logan, if you wouldn't mind
introducing yourself and kinda telling
us a little bit about your company.
Logan Sugarman: Yeah.
Um, uh, Logan Sugarman,
uh, CEO of Refresh.
Um, you know, what we've built is a third
path within the human kind of HR space.
Uh, historically, you've, uh, had kind of
walled gardens, think Workday, Rippling,
um, et cetera, and then point solutions,
things like your wellness app, your
points app, your Ben admin app, um, all
doing, you know, great work and, and, and
providing good resources and benefits.
Um, but over time, you know, companies
have bought too many of them.
And I don't say that in
that they aren't useful.
I say that in the fact that there's
so many of them that employees can't
activate and use them effectively
because there's too much complexity.
Your average corporation right now has
something in the neighborhood of two
to three hundred unique apps, tools,
resources, communication channels.
Um, for your average deskless worker,
which is eighty percent of the
workforce, they're not using any of that.
I think the, the stats on usage rates
for most tools within the HR space are
right around ten to fifteen percent usage.
Um, that's insanely low, especially
when you think about the value
that's being lost to a certain
extent by people not knowing what
they have, uh, and not using it.
Um, you're talking in the order
of billions, hundreds of billions
of dollars of expenditure
that goes to waste every year.
Um, our view is not that you need more
apps or that these apps need to change.
I think Workday is a great product.
I think Awardly is a wonderful tool.
Uh, it's, it's the way that they're
delivered, um, and the way that
they're connected to people.
We think about this as a gap, um,
a delivery gap, or, I mean, I guess
a better way to think about it is,
is a culture management gap, right?
Companies buy these things because they
want to show that they value you as
an employee and to give you a reason
to belong to that organization, right?
Especially in distributed workforces, your
hourly rate, you know, fifteen, twenty,
twenty -five dollars an hour, it's great.
If you're at all good at your job, you
can get that at any number of firms.
So companies that are providing these
benefits and resources say, "Hey,
we've got a really great culture.
We've got a really good reason for
you to belong to this organization
versus another organization."
But if that isn't felt, if that isn't
experienced, all that goes away and
you've got this gap between what's being
designed at the middle and what's actually
reaching the edges of your organization.
What Refresh does is sit above all
that stuff and connect it together
and deliver it to that user.
Sorry, long, long
Mike Pine: worries.
No, no.
Let me just try to dumb it down a little
bit for someone like me who we don't
know, I don't know anything about HR.
We're not big enough for HR.
If we had HR, I'd
probably be fired by now.
I think Kevin could attest to that.
But, um, so I don't know these HR
apps, but what I do know is, is as a
small business, we have this app stack,
app upon app upon app, that we keep
bringing in a new app because it solves
X, and then another app that solves Y.
And we don't know how to get them
to work together in a lot of cases.
And, and as my team can attest, there
are times when I don't even know which
app to go to when I need to do XYZ.
And I know it's not HR related,
but I think it kinda translates to
what you, what your product does.
So it basically, i- in, in that language,
in my layman's term language, if I
get this right, and correct me if I'm
wrong, Logan, but it, it, it gets all
the apps in one place and directs you
what, based on whatever you're trying to
do, to the correct app for the correct
reason, and it's got some AI power.
Am, am I right?
Am I kinda explaining
Logan Sugarman: yeah.
I mean, you know, I, I think
the simplest way to think about
this is Google Home, right?
I mean, I assume you have Google
Home in some way, shape, or form.
Probably most of the listeners have it.
Um, we bought a new house recently.
We got a new dishwasher, a new fridge.
Every single one of these
appliances came with its own app.
I now have 15 apps to
walk into my house, right?
Um, and some of them connect to Google
Home, some of them don't, right?
It's, it's a mishmash of things.
So to go in to figure out how do I do
this one thing within my home, right?
If I can't find it in Google Home, I now
have to go search through my other 200
apps on my phone with my, like, Backgammon
and my Duolingo and my whatever else.
The app overload or the app
sprawl hairball, which is what
we like to call it, just because
it, it's kind of alliterative
and fun, um, is, is universal.
It's a universal problem across every
aspect of human existence right now.
Um, we tend to-- we are focusing on the HR
experience, um, which is manifold, right?
Think of your ph-- think of
every app you have on your phone.
Now, if every app on your phone was
an app for your company that had some
sort of value to you as an employee,
that's the problem we're solving, right?
Like just that like literal
dump of great stuff, right?
You've downloaded all
those apps for a reason.
You just don't know when and
where or why to use them.
Mike Pine: Gotcha.
Now I can understand.
You mentioned at a conference I was at
listening to you speak recently that
there was a study of app utilization
in big organizations, I think, where
the, the, the number was staggering.
If you consider that we pay good
money for our apps as businesses and
to solve purposes, to provide s- to
provide some type of value in our
organizations, and they're expensive.
And can you explain that stat
that util- underutilization rate?
Logan Sugarman: Yeah, I mean, I
mean, it goes well beyond that.
So I think, you know, the utilization
numbers are around 10% to 15%,
uh, for your average HR tool.
But think of the greater
context of that, right?
An HR manager, director, uh, CHRO
had to go out and spend time thinking
about what product to go buy, right?
They had to go do it.
They had to sign contracts.
These are-- this takes, you
know, six, nine, twelve months,
especially at a large organization.
I mean, this is not a simple, uh, easy
process to, to, to go and find these
things and decide which one to get.
They probably went through an RFP process.
Then once they actually buy it, now you've
got to figure out how to distribute it.
So they spend time educating
their population about it.
And now that they've got it out there
and it's being used by 10% of people,
you get questions nonstop, right?
So the, the, the HR role, which
conceptually and I think in its
highest best use case, is a strategic
builder of culture and a strategic
builder of companies and people, has
now been reduced to an admin, right?
Where their entire cycle is buying,
distributing, educating, and
basically being a, a, a chatbot
for, "Where is my dental insurance?
What are our awards and benefits?"
Right?
That's the wrong way for us to go
as, as I think as an organizat- as an
organization who wants to deliver culture.
And I think, I mean, this is why we're
so excited about, about the, the Reach
program with Goodwill is, you know,
as far as culture organizations go, I
mean, you'd be insanely hard-pressed
to find a, a, an organization that,
that lives its culture and breathes
its culture the way that Goodwill and
the people at Goodwill, and I'll let
Michelle and Adrian talk about that.
But I, you know, in, in having dealt
with, I mean, tens and tens and tens
of, of Goodwills now, and, and it's
just you have this replication of
culture throughout that organization
that is just, it's, it's mind-blowing,
especially in a federated model.
Kevin Schneider: Yeah.
That's really, I, I love this product.
We were even having lunch with some
of our team members and one of our
employees, and we're a small business,
we have 20 employees or so, and he's
like, "Oh, y'all do match, 401match?"
And we're like, "That'sâ¦
Yeah, we do."
And, uh, I think that's just a testament
to our, maybe our bad communication,
but it's also like, man, we're a small
organization and our employees don't
even know what benefits we have, and we
onboard them individually one-on-one.
And anyway, it's a, it's a really cool
product, and this is why this year's
offering is so exciting to me, is 'cause
when you bring in a partner like Goodwill,
Goodwill has such a tremendous, um, cause.
And Michelle and Adrian, can you kind
of share kind of your position, where,
where you're at in the organization,
and, um, just kind of how you're
gonna be utilizing this and how it's
actually gonna be helping the community?
Mike Pine: Yeah.
Michelle, can you introduce yourself
to us and, and tell us a bit about
what you do before you tell us
what we're using this program for?
Michelle Roberts: Yes.
Uh, Michelle Roberts with
Marion Goodwill, um, in Ohio,
and I'm the president and CEO.
I've been, uh, with our Goodwill
for 18 years, in the role of
president and CEO for five.
Um, my prior role to coming to this was
vice president of Mission Services and HR.
So it-- this has been a great
partnership, and it, it's all of the
things that when I was in my prior
role that I always said, "If I could
have all of these things in one place."
Um, and so from an employer standpoint,
um, the communication portion and,
you know, we experienced the same
thing that Kevin was discussing.
I, I think when people are going through
orientations, it's so much information
so quickly, and they need time to be
able to digest or just might be in a,
you know, a certain part of their life.
They're like, "Okay, now I'm
ready to think about, you know,
401investing or events that are
going on, or the different aspects."
Um, you know, but the community
reach of it, you know, as well, it
i- it is an app that gives us access
to so many tools all in one place.
And Adrian and I were just having this
discussion, um, you know, the app for me,
the impact in the community, and he can
share some specific stories, um, it isn't
just while they're working with Goodwill,
which so many things and programs, it's
while you're working with us, you have
all these resources, and this gives us
access to resources at any point in their
journey, um, you know, in their walk
or, or whatever they would be facing.
So it's exciting for us to be able
to participate and be a part of this.
Mike Pine: It is really exciting.
So I met Adrian at the same conference
that I met Logan, and I got talking with
Adrian about a, a specific individual
that my wife and I have just grown to
love and, and, and be impressed by.
She's a single mom who's got a really
rough background, but she's trying to
p- pull herself back up and, and improve
her life for herself, but also her kids.
And sh- there's a lot of assistance that
she needs, um, and that, that Goodwill can
actually provide, and I didn't know that.
I thought Goodwill was, "Hey, I can
give my furniture and clothes to the
Goodwill shop and go and buy some
cheap stuff occasionally," right?
It's so much more than that, and,
and Adrian has actually, through
some caseworkers at Goodwill, has
actually shown me, and I've gotten to
experience and see firsthand from a
person who needs assistance, from their
perspective, what this app can provide.
Um, a- so we understand from
Logan this is an app that, that
helps consolidate HR functions.
We understand from you, Michelle,
that, hey, this is something
that, that Goodwill can use.
Adrian, would you mind kinda explaining
what gap this is closing, how this is
actually helping sort of people in need?
Adrian Gessen: Sounds good.
Thanks for having me here.
I'm Adrian.
I've been with Goodwill for about
18 years, uh, as well, uh, Senior
Vice President for Organizational
Development for Goodwill Northeast Texas.
It's 17 counties out of, uh,
Texas and one in Oklahoma.
Um, also help support Michelle and
the team in, in the Goodwill movement.
For 18 years, um, part of my role has been
helping develop other Goodwills in, uh, in
regards to systems and access and equity.
So we've always had a pretty big
gap because we wanna be there
for someone, um, due to a reason.
Uh, we wanna help kind of weather
that storm during that season.
We wanna make generational impact.
You know, we don't, we don't wanna
make the vulnerable more comfortable.
You know, give someone a
pillow when they're homeless.
You wanna make it escapable in this piece.
Uh, but we've always
had that digital wall.
I'll give you an example.
You apply to become-- be part of one of
our programs, be part of Goodwill, great.
But as an average, there's 54 applicants
for every job that we have available.
That's 53 people raising their hands
saying, "Hey, I need an opportunity.
Hey, I need help.
I need some place that I could
feel trust, I could be believed
in, and I could feel special."
And that takes time.
So what happens to those folks?
"Hey, we'll call you when we,
when, when we have an opportunity."
We no longer have that barrier.
Anyone that applies now has in
the actual ad The app for them
to download with resources.
Hey, what we get with you, here's
other jobs available for you.
Here's other resources that
might be impactful right now
when you need them the most.
That doesn't exist out there.
So we had a situation of one individual
that had applied for a director of IT.
Within 48 hours, he gave us a call
to thank us because he's actually
found an incredible job in Dallas with
a, with a, with an actual financial
firm, and he was applying for IT.
It's like, I can't believe that I was part
of the mission even before he started.
That did-- That it just blewâ¦
We've never been able to do that.
We have job connections, but not for
thousands of people that apply for roles.
Same thing from the off-boarding.
We have never had an opportunity to
give someone a warm off-boarding because
a lot of our connectivity in regards
to access to benefits, access to,
uh, someone's even just communication
with them is through a paid wall in
this, in this sense, our HRMS system.
The minute someone is terminated from
the system, for even for good reasons,
they no longer have access to be
able to have single user sign on to
be able to apply to other benefits.
So for the first time you leave, you
still have your team saying, "Hey,
thank you, Billy, for what you've done."
You still have your points that you
kinda gain in your wellness piece, so
you can still use in the marketplace.
You still have all the local resources.
They don't go away.
So that relationship, that continuum,
it has never, ever existed.
So it's been-- and it's
been mind-boggling.
I mean, we're able to connect
public benefits, private funded
benefits, my own personal benefits.
Maybe I have Audible for my audiobooks.
No, it-- everything's connected in
one place, and you don't have to
explain to someone how to log in
'cause he has the best password in
the world, which is just your face.
You open your phone with
your face, you know?
That's it.
So it's been, it's been
eye-opening and the curation of it.
So we s- working with Goodwill
has been amazing 'cause all about
upskilling and it's all about work,
uh, readiness and also, um, the, the
success and the purpose of a, of an
earned, earned, an earned hard work.
But partnering with other federated
huge national profits, nonprofits
that serve and are experts at
different aspects of that population.
So an example, National Catholic
Charities does a wonderful job with
folks that immigrated into this
country or language acquisition.
The YMCA does a wonderful job with
the, the kind of community of a
family nucleus that's actually
well and, and, and, and looking the
wellbeing and, and, and at peace.
Salvation Army in regards to substance
abuse and traditional housing.
So we're able to truly learn from
the best and figure how to curate it.
You know, there's, there's a big, big
culture out there spec- You know, when
people go travel thinking about what's
the best hole in the wall place to eat?
What's, what's-- Is
there a cool speakeasy?
Well, we could actually have a
serve easy, curated for people
when they need it the most.
Uh, so it's, it's sort of my
passion, which is this has
never existed before, so we're
Mike Pine: I love your passion.
Um, if you don't mind, I'm gonna kind of
prod you to share a couple of stories that
you shared with me, um, on how thisâ¦
'Cause again, it's, I, I wanna put
together how this app truly not just
helps serve people and helps people,
um, grow out of whatever struggles that
they're into, but it, it, it's, there's
specific issues that it's solving.
It's acting as a multiplier
effect with the Goodwill, um,
employees and Goodwill volunteers.
They're able to serve a lot more.
You mentioned something like when you
first started as a s- as a social worker
with Goodwill 18 years ago, you had some
kind of huge book that you had to look
through and Google as well to figure
out when someone comes in and they're
like, "Hey, I need help with this.
You know, I just lost my job.
Rent's due.
I'm gonna b- I would have to bring
my daughter and, and live in my
car if we can't get some help."
And you would go through, like, this
ridiculous search process, right?
Can you, do you remember that
story that you shared with me?
I'm sure there's a
Adrian Gessen: Yeah, and it's, uh--
Michelle Roberts: I have those as well.
Adrian Gessen: And Mi-
Mi- Michiel can speak too.
Mike Pine: Okay, go for it, Michelle
Adrian Gessen: yeah
Michelle Roberts: so, um, i- in our
world, they were called resource guides.
And so we would have many times
interns work on them as social work
projects to just try to spend hours
and hours and hours to collect all of
the different resources that are, you
know, in our territory is five counties.
And, um, by the time it was published,
you know that it was already outdated.
You know, because a lot of those
things were based on nonprofits
and churches and, and programs that
unfortunately come and go sometimes
because of different funding aspects.
Um, and, and so that process, you know,
it's the all about trying to find what
resource each individual person needs,
and that walk is different for everyone
because they're all in different stages.
So it's not like somebody
comes to Goodwill and they
just need one, two, and three.
It's completely different for
every person, you know, that
walks, walks through the door.
Mike Pine: Cool.
And I also remember really, and, and
you actually already touched on it,
Adrian, but let's say they just need
a helping hand up to, to get housing.
At, that's their immediate need.
And then in so many other programs,
and because of the, y- most programs
have finite resources, once they get
that helping hand up into that program,
boom, now they're back on their own.
Whereas with this app, as I've
seen and heard explained, it,
it continues to help you grow.
It's not a once and done thing.
It's a program.
It's a process.
Can you, can you get into
that a little bit more?
Adrian Gessen: Y-yeah, I, I can,
I can start with that piece.
So I'll give you an example.
Um, you mentioned it's in
this case housing, so we'll,
we'll stay with that piece.
So, um, it, it-- you
basically have one question.
"Hey, at this moment in time, are you
having trouble," in this example, "having
a roof over your head on a daily basis?
Are you, uh, are, are you homeless?
Are you couch surfing?
Are you renting until your means?
Are you renting within your means?
Are you able to, uh, to build capital?"
And this piece.
Just with that answer alone, it'll provide
and link you resources that are specific
to that particular need to go to the
next, next level o-of that side, and also
connect you with different case managers
or individuals that have gone through that
to be mentors of support in that system.
There's a complete mechanism of shout-outs
and thank yous and sharing your story
within the app itself so that folksâ¦
And Logan can probably talk to through
that piece because it's brilliant.
In regards to-- Logan, you mentioned
to me in the past that one of
the best indicators of future
behavior is not only previous
behavior, but it's modeled behavior.
Um, how do you mention that?
Uh, that's pretty brilliant what
you guys did for that, for the
raves and the, and all that stuff.
Would you mind speaking to the
mechanics around that or, or the,
or the how, why that works so well
Logan Sugarman: Well, sure.
I mean, anything, any, any
specific use case that you're
thinking of there, Adrian?
Adrian Gessen: No, no, just in general
that you, you, um, it's when someone
sees someone doing something that
Logan Sugarman: Sure, sure.
Well, I mean, I mean, the basic, the
basic premise of mimetic drive is,
is that, and this is what Facebook
operates off of, this is what Instagram
works off of, even LinkedIn, right?
Is that, um, we as animals, for lack
of a better way to frame it, um, see
another creature doing something, we're
like, "Ooh, I wanna do that too," right?
And that's why these systems
are so powerful and, you know,
arguably powerful and maybe not
such a great way for people, right?
Whereas you're like, "Oh, I wanna
scream into the void too about something
silly today," um, which I think
Twitter does a really great job at.
Um, our view would be that we can take
those same drives, those same core
mechanics of, of, of, of, of this gray
matter and this brain that we've got
in our head, and we can repurpose it
for, for positive use cases, right?
Like if we turn that internal and say,
"Hey, wouldn't it be great if you were
so passionate about your benefits the
way you are about whether that dress is
blue or green on the internet," right?
Like, wouldn't that be wonderful?
Um, yeah, so mimetic drive is, you know,
I see Sally in accounting did something.
I'm like, "Oh, Sally's smart.
I like Sally.
I wanna go see what Sally's doing
'cause I wanna be like Sally.
I'm gonna click on that button.
I'm gonna do that thing."
Um, and ideally, at least in our scenario,
it's making me better off, right?
Because we're looking at our benefits.
We're, we're, we're, we're
engaging with each other.
We're taking part in challenges,
whatever it might be, wellness.
Um, the goal being to create a system
that has a lot of the features of, of, of
current modern tech, um, but repurposes
it in a semi-positive way, right?
Uh,
Adrian Gessen: No, it, it,
it's a really good intent.
I mean, you see it now, um,
with social media, right?
Everything's more outward in, you know.
A lot of folks are, are friends
with celebrities and influencers,
but comes your birthday, they're
not the ones messaging you back
saying, "Hey, happy birthday."
In this particular scenario, um, every
story that you share, everything that
you find, when you wanna give some
thanks to someone, I mean, there's
even a, a button for I would like to
thank me, which I'm pretty sure was,
you know, came from Snoop Dogg, right?
But I would like to thank
me for showing up every day.
I'd like to thank me for having
the grit that when something kinda
happened, I could choose to be kind
of bothered by that or could grow from
it, which is the difference between
PTSD and post-traumatic growth, which
is not very marketable out there.
But it's, it basically teaches you
the past is not gonna consume you,
the future's not in control, and
you go day by day and build momentum
within a community and share about it.
Uh, reciprocity, gratitude, it's all
built around those, those, those kind
of pillars, and that's what we're
building and we've been able to do with
h- with the technology of, of Refresh.
You know, this comes from a technology
that had to figure out how to do that
through many, many, many companies
and to be able to provide them
equitable, accessible access to their
provided benefits and resources.
The fact that we could in the public
sector, the fact that it's no longer-- Uh,
before, and Goodwill's an example, we, we
have a program in which we're providing
folks resources for language acquisition.
But guess what?
The best way to, to learn a language is
to practice, but you couldn't give it to
the spouse or the son or the kid or the
dad or the grandparent because it was in
the same census file because one person
was an employee, one person's a volunteer,
one person's a board member, and they
don't live within the same ecosystem.
Now they do.
When someone transitions out
of a program, they're alumni.
They're completely linked
within the resources, and the
connectivity doesn't go away.
The relationship stays, and
that's what keeps the momentum.
Logan Sugarman: And one of the things
that we've seen that's been super
powerful, I mean, in, in, in, in the
general world, SaaS, um, as a, as
a, as a construct is, is charged on
a per user per month basis, right?
And it doesn't matter what type of
user you are, you're paying that bill,
and that's how companies make money.
Um, and oftentimes within that structure,
you know, especially in current,
uh, uh, corporate America, um, you
know, covered and uncovered employees
have very different experiences.
Um, you know, your, your folks
that are-- that have benefits and,
and have healthcare have a lot of
center to their resources, right?
They're able to log into Workday,
they're able to log into Rippling and,
and have at least some aggregation
of tools and, and, and benefits.
Uh, uh, it may not be ideal and it may not
be u- super user-friendly, but it's there.
Um, for your uncovered employees,
there's typically nothing, right?
Um, and to Adrian's point, you know,
you're talking about seasonal workers,
part-time, um, folks that may be a
little bit more transient, right?
So it's harder to connect with them and
certainly not folks where you would be
like, "Yeah, great, $10 PEPM, $15 PEPM.
Yeah, we'll pay that whether you're
here or not or whether you leave or,
or come back or, or whatever it is."
Um, I think what's really powerful about
this, this grant here and the grant
program that we're doing with, with
Goodwill is it eliminates that, that,
that, that question mark of, of, of
can we, should we, would we pay for it?
Um, the question is now, is
this valuable to that user?
Great.
Let's turn it on for them
and let's get them in there.
And we can, you know, in, in, in the
range of value add, I would say just
giving people a centerpiece to bring
everybody to the same table, uh, and be
part of the same room is super powerful.
Number one in translating culture, right?
Connecting people to the reasons of
why they sh- should want to belong
to our organization, uh, let alone
personalizing to them and saying,
"Hey, we're thinking about you today.
Let's talk about your needs."
And you know, uh, Mike, you mentioned
this earlier in the program, you know,
there's agentic aspect of it too, but
you know- AI is great and certainly
doing a lot of good things, I guess,
until it turns us all into paperclips.
Um, but, you know, for a lot of
folks, it's just another thing
that I have to figure out and
figure out what to ask it, right?
If I don't know-- It's, you know,
I use this analogy that, you
know, we went from DOS prompt.
I don't know, well, uh, some of you
look old enough to remember this,
but like, you know, a little green
blinking thing on your screen, you
had to know what to ask, right?
I, as a kid, remember going into,
like, computer labs and being like, the
only prompt I knew was games, right?
So I'd type in games, they'd
give me the list of games.
I assume, and I'm gonna make a grand
assumption here, that if I had known more
prompts, maybe I'd be Bill Gates because
I would've been using those cu-computers
more effectively at that point in time.
I digress.
So you went to GUI
interface, which was great.
Now everyone can access it because
we can see, and human beings
are inherently visual animals.
Nobody reads.
And I'm sure you guys have sent out
emails and you've gotten responses
back with people reading the first two
sentences and you're like, "Yeah, but
there was three paragraphs below that
that also answer all those questions."
Mike Pine: You're right
Logan Sugarman: and then we're
back at DOS prompt, right?
AI is back to square one on DOS prompt.
You have to know what you want to know and
then how to frame it so that AI gets it.
We think about it differently.
Um, we think about it as a helper bot
that is going to present you visual
information and show you things based
upon what we know and understand about
you, so that it's personalizing it
to you without you having to think
about it and ask it to do that, right?
Um, so it's latent, um,
it's in the background.
It's, it's helping organize and deliver,
um, resources, content, et cetera.
Again, along kind of some of those social
network, uh, aspects of the system, but
I think it's, it's, it's very powerful
from a personalization standpoint.
Mike Pine: Agreed
Kevin Schneider: Hasâ¦
How many, and Michelle, I don't know if
you would have this number, but how many
of these actual licenses have been put
into practice for people under your care?
Michelle Roberts: I think Adrian
may have that number more than I do
Adrian Gessen: It's-- So
it's a, a couple things.
Uh, the first piece is,
'cause I don't wanna, I don't
wanna misspeak on this side.
Uh, Michelle, would you mind sharing?
'Cause I know Mikeâ¦
Kevin, I'll get back
to you, I promise you.
I just wanna make sure we get that story.
Um, one, there's a story that, um, that
Michelle had shared with me specific
to the individual that had moved to the
new community and it was about toâ¦
Would you mind sharing that and
then we'll answer that piece?
Kevin, is that okay if we go through that?
I
Kevin Schneider: yeah.
For sure
Michelle Roberts: Yeah, definitely.
So we had an individual that was, um,
inquiring about one of our programs,
enrolled in the program, was 55 or
older, and needed assistance, um,
because he was facing homelessness.
So he did not have the money for a
deposit, um, for finding a, a new
apartment in this new community.
And we've been in this community for years
and really, um, you know, each program
and each assistance has guidelines on the
things to be approved, you know, for that.
And we were, you know, going to all
of our normal partners, you know,
connecting with job and family
services, all of the different
things that we would normally do.
And this gentleman, we were just
coming up with-- not coming up
with the resources that we needed.
And, um, you know, we turned to the
Refresh app to, you know, really
go to, to find help in this area.
And we found a local church who
had a new program that assisted
with rent, and we were not aware
of the program, connected them.
He was able to get that, stopped
him from a homeless situation.
Um, but it also was hours that
our people would have normally
spent, you know, calling and
trying to find those resources.
Also looking to see are, you know,
you may have this resource, but
are you eligible for this resource?
We were able to type that information
in and, you know, quickly, as
fast as the search was done,
we're able to see not only the
program, but also that eligibility
Adrian Gessen: And Michelle, you've been
in that community for, and you've been in
that community for how many years and, and
Michelle Roberts: our, our Goodwill
was formed in 1977, so we've, you know,
it's, it's not a new territory for us.
Um, and we're very active in the
community as well, but it was
something that we were not aware of.
They had started the program
and it just had not entered a
networking circle where we were.
Mike Pine: Sorry to interrupt real quick.
Adrian, you'd mentioned this stat, and
I think it, it's so applicable here.
So even though you've been around in
that, in that neighborhood, in that
area for dozens of dozens of years, um,
there's so many resources out there,
it's im- impossible for one person or
even one book to stay updated to share
Adrian Gessen: it's, it--
That's the biggest issue.
So at right now, if you, if you, if
you really invest in a really good case
manager, it's-- I mean, that person still
takes a break, and that person still lives
in a particular zip code or relationship.
It's almost like high
school sports, right?
Or you can say, if you have a
good partnership with something
in the community, great.
You, you have some level of
sustainability, but you st- it's
still very relational in this piece.
Without a platform like this, we
don't have the vehicle of service
that could also scale and reach the
nimbleness of the need in this piece.
So in this particular example, I mean,
you're talking about how many nonprofits
right now or how many public-serving
agencies or for-profit that wants to
support may not have the reach to connect
to people that need to at the right time.
And we-- for the first time,
we have an app in which you
could just go in the bookingsâ¦
Sorry, that's my daughter.
You could just go in
Mike Pine: That's
not what the app looks like, by the way.
I've seen it.
Adrian Gessen: You could just go in
the bookings and have, instead of a
telemedicine call, which is also available
through the Avnet connectivity, you
could actually have a video conference
with a case manager specific to a
particular expertise, a financial
coach paid for, legal advice paid for.
It just doesn't exist to meet
you where you're at in that side.
Uh, but Kevin, to answer your question,
so we were blessed to be able to, uh,
be able to have a chance to distribute
over one point five million licenses.
Uh, we're at one point six.
We have, uh, nonprofits and federal
models knocking at the door.
Just this week, the food
insecurity sector found out.
So we had Beam from St.
Pete.
We had, uh, National, um, Fresh
Food Connect, National Connect Food
Banks, um, uh, endofhunger.org.
So many factors, pantries reaching
out, going, "How can we be part
of this, uh, in this piece?"
Uh, we started with, uh, Goodwill.
They do a great job with building
systems around the rebuilding phase,
uh, uh, in regards to safe environment,
security pro-- uh, and, and, and work.
But the reality of things,
it's just one of the spaces.
United States does an incredible
job of resources that we have.
Majority of them are about stabilization.
A lot-- A, a build bulk after
that is about rebuilding,
which, uh, we do in Goodwill.
But there's a transitional spa-space
in the community space, the
graduation piece, that nothing exists.
So once you graduate from the program,
it's almost then a benefits cliff.
They just kind of-- There,
there's no connectivity.
So the idea is folks have thought
about a circular economy, and this
we did in Goodwill, of goods, right?
Less goods that make it
to, um, um, to landfills.
But what about a circular service
economy where you could reach
more people, you could reach them.
So not-- We cannot help everyone,
but everyone can help someone.
That's a guarantee.
We-- And we all gone through some season,
and it's kinda what you, what you're
experiencing, Mike, when you go through.
So Kevin, I, I hope I
answered your question.
But yeah
Kevin Schneider: No, that was great.
Yeah, I'm trying to give our, our clients
an, a, a peek into how much this, this
capital that's being raised, um, and
being deployed, how, how it's gonna be
actually put into practice, how much
can Goodwill absorb of these licenses?
Um, 'cause you've already put in 1.5,
so
Adrian Gessen: E- et cetera, et cetera,
the models you're talking about,
Goodwill is one of the verticals in
that piece, National Catholic Charities.
Uh, you, you have, uh, counties, you
have, uh, YMCAs, Scouts of America.
I mean, you're, you're talking about
food insecurity, uh, pantries, so you're
talking about complete ecosystems.
Logan Sugarman: we are serving, uh, armed
forces, first responders, National Guard.
So the-- I mean, these are
gigantic, gigantic groups.
You know, what I, what I was impressed
by within the Goodwill model, and, and
I think this speaks to Mike or Kevin,
I think you mentioned this earlier in
the show, is like everyone thinks of
Goodwill as like, "Oh, that's the place
you dump all your old clothes," right?
And sorry, not to like put too fine
a point on it, but like in getting
to know Goodwill, you know, o-one,
their mission is much grander, right?
It's, it's, it's, it's, it's
about stabilizing and, and
revitalizing communities, right?
Taking those clothes, turning them
into dollars again, that go back
into these communities that are
so important, and then finding
new ways to bring other groups in.
I mean, you know, when we, when we met
Adrian, you know, his mission was to
find great technology and bring it to
other charitable organizations because
charities have a tough time vetting,
understanding, buying, deploying
technology like everybody else.
Um, but in, you know, charitable spheres,
you have even less resources oftentimes.
Um, so o-one of the things that
we've really been inspired about
is the, is the reach of Goodwill
into charities writ large.
Uh, and Adrian na-named a few
YMCA, uh, Catholic Charities.
I mean, these are gigantic, tens-- These
organizations touch tons and tens of
millions of peoples in this country.
Um, these are the organizations that
are being supported by these licenses.
Um, and, and something where as we move
forward, and Adrian mentioned a bunch of
other names, as the word gets out, there
is no shortage in demand in the charitable
space for this kind of connectivity.
And it doesâ¦
You know, one of the nice parts
about our system is that it's,
it's completely tailorable, right?
So like, and Adrian's kind of getting into
this a little bit, but like every group
has a slightly different use case, right?
Catholic Charities does not have the same
use case writ large as Goodwill, right?
But it's similar, right?
They all have the same problem, as I
mentioned with, with, with a house, right?
Like the house problem is
a problem whether you are,
whether you lack a house, right?
If you are, if you are unhoused, um,
uh, and, and, and, and, and, and in
need, y-there's a ton of resources out
there for you, but you have even less
ability to go and find them and, and
access them, as, you know, Michelle's
story so, so aptly put it, right?
So there's a lot of different ways to, to,
to look at how this system addresses need.
Um, so yeah, there's
Mike Pine: And real quick,
in, in that case, like, there's
a ton of source, uh, resources
available for someone who needs help.
But there's a bunch of resources out there
looking for the people who need the help,
and they wanna pour into them, and they
have a hard time pro- fi- finding them
as well, and this kinda connects them.
Logan, I know you need to go catch a
plane, so I wanna focus on you just
for a couple minutes and ask you some
questions and, and then we'll get
back to the amazing use cases here.
Um, your company is a, is not a nonprofit.
You have created this program and you,
y- you, and this software as a service,
and it's being adopted by some huge
companies on the for-profit model.
Now, you have a very charitable
heart, but it's expensive to
create a program like this.
It's expensive to, to develop
it and continue to improve it.
Um, and as charitable-minded as I
believe you are, there's only s- if
you gave it all, all these licenses
away versus selling the for-profit
model, you guys, how long would
y'all s- keep your doors open, right?
Logan Sugarman: Sure, sure
Mike Pine: Right.
So but you, you do give a lot.
Um, what I found really impactful at
that conference we were at together is
not only does this grant program that
we're gonna talk more about here at
the end, but not only does this grant
program help provide the, the, the funds
to, to give more of this software and
these apps and licenses to people that
need 'em or that, that couldn't afford
'em otherwise or didn't even know about
'em, and now they're adopting them,
and now they're happy to pay for them.
But it, it's also allowed your
company to hire people directly
related to the grantees, right?
So now you have, like, a nonprofit arm
where there's people that are just focused
on serving and helping implementation
for people like Goodwill, right?
Logan Sugarman: No, I mean,
that's not, that's not really
how we're structured, right?
I mean, you know, what we, what we are
at our core is a software company, right?
So whether we're servicing a Goodwill
or a Catholic Charities or a, uh,
major corporation, it's all the
same people doing the same work.
Um, so, you know, I think what's been
great about the, um, grant program is
it's allowed us to service a, a, a,
a, a group of companies and a group
of people that otherwise wouldn't
have been able to afford the licenses.
Um, and that's the real benefit here.
I mean, you know, obviously we are
ecstatic about being able to be a
part of that and, and see the good
work that, that, and, and, and the
benefit and, and I mean, the anecdotal
stories are both heartbreaking and
inspiring, um, in, in this model.
Um, I think it's, it's a--
it's wonderful for our team to
see that, right, writ large.
Uh, but yeah, there's no-- I mean,
everyone's getting the same, same
dog food from, from us, right?
Like, you know, it's, there's no, there's
no specialization here in what we do, and
that's the nice part about the software
we've built is that it's adaptable
to really any, any use case, right?
We've got, um, mall REITs that look
at this as using it for, um, their,
their corporate employees, um, and
then using it for mall employees
for a different use case, right?
For, you know, uh, discount tickets
to the food court or whatever.
And then as an affinity tool for
people who are coming into the mall.
Um, all of these use cases at, from our
perspective are very similar, right?
Because they all have the
same complexity problem.
They all have the same need to
create a single space for multiple
different types of users to come
into and engage with different
products, different tools, different,
different communication channels.
Um, and that's what we really do
day in and day out, and I think
that's what we are great at.
Um, but again, you know, through the
grant program, um, and through our
relationship with Goodwill, we're just
able to service a different audience
that is, um, inspiring to us, uh,
and makes us, you know, feel good.
Mike Pine: Us as well, yeah.
Logan, I know you need to catch a
flight, so we're gonna let you go early.
I just wanna, um, ask real quick, if
someone wants to, let's say we have
someone listening and they're like, "Man,
I do have HR app issues and stack, and,
and I actually, this is something I wanna
look at maybe adding into our program,"
um, and they don't qualify for these
grants, um, where, where should they go?
Your website?
Logan Sugarman: Yeah, go to our website.
Uh, you can book a demo.
We'll, we'll, we'll run you
through the, the product.
It's, uh, refreshplatform.com.
or email one of us.
I think we, we can put a, a landing page
Mike Pine: We'll have some links, yep
Logan Sugarman: yep.
Um, but yeah, we're, we are,
we are open for, for, for more
business, uh, on, on every side.
Also, if they, if your, if your listeners
have a charity that they think would be
benefit from, from these tools, they can
reach out as well.
Um, we will have more licenses next year.
Uh, we are, we are fully
committed for this year.
Uh, but there's, uh,
there are more coming.
So, um, yeah, please reach out.
We're, we are, we are looking
to help in any direction
Mike Pine: You rock, Logan.
Thank you so much for
Kevin Schneider: Thank you, Logan.
Logan Sugarman: Appreciate it.
Thank you, guys.
Mike Pine: So Adrian, please, I want to
hear some more of these real-life stories.
Um, and our listeners should hear
more about this because this is really
where the rubber meets the road.
Would you mind sharing some of those?
Adrian Gessen: Yeah.
It's, umâ¦
And I'm, I'll keep putting, you
know, my mentor Michelle, uh,
in, in, in front of this one.
Michelle, you were sharing with
me, which is very similar with,
with what I'm about to share.
As an organization that's here to
serve, and when you have funds to do
so, and sometimes restricted funding
to help folks reach their goals,
but folks are not applying for that
'cause they don't know, they might
not realize that it exists or so on.
Can you kinda explain the pain points
of, of having a program and maybe
some folks that are not aware of
it may not be applying at the, at
the need that's, that's out there?
Michelle Roberts: Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so I mean, I, I think
that happens every day.
Um, people don't realize what
the resources are and, and so
they're just not connected.
So they may think because they went
to one other place and asked for
help and somebody said, you know,
"No, there's not anybody that's doing
that type of program for that type of
help," that, that that would be it.
And, and I think that is one of the--
my most favorite things about the app
is that it really, you know, it, it puts
it at the consumer's hands to be able to
search to find the help that they need.
And it's not just those
emergency services.
So those types of things are on there,
if it's medication, if it's food banks,
um, if it's your emergencies with, you
know, rent and, and those types of things.
But there's also the part of, okay, maybe
I'm, I'm stable in these portions, but
I now I wanna start building my skills.
And that is really where, you know, I
think Goodwill does talk and, and, you
know, we do have programs that we're
working on those basic critical needs, but
the, the real part of our work is building
skills and finding self-sufficiency
for each individual person, which is
completely different depending upon who
you are and what your goals are, and
can also change over a course of time.
Um, and, and so like there are
just resources that, you know,
in the app that can draw them.
So if it's okay, I've been renting and
I've paid my rent successfully, and I have
my bills paid current, now maybe I wanna
look at homeownership, but I don't know
where to begin on credit and awareness and
housing and all of those different things.
You could take financial education
courses, um, you know, and start
to build, um, you know, those skill
sets without having to work with a
caseworker, which is what we used to
have to do, you know, in an older model.
So-
Mike Pine: there's that multiplier effect.
Adrian Gessen: Yeah,
Mike Pine: have this great graphic,
and we're gonna put it on screen
if I can get it from you, but it
was that stairstep of getting them
to be s- fully self-sufficient.
If, if we can get a copy of that,
we're gonna throw that up on the
screen here or let our editors do it.
But yeah, you're, you'reâ¦
It's a holistic,
comprehensive health program.
It's notâ¦
W- what's the adage?
You, you can, you can either give
a person a fish to eat if they're
hungry, or you can teach them to fish,
Adrian Gessen: already
speaking Goodworldian, man.
Look at you.
Mike Pine: to fish.
What's
Adrian Gessen: After this
podcast, you're gonna speak
Goodworldian and Spanish
Michelle Roberts: Yeah.
Mike Pine: probably not.
Adrian Gessen: It's a-- But, but to
give you-- But it actually compounds.
It's act-it's actually
even more, which weâ¦
This was an un-unintended,
wonderful consequence of this piece.
So we usually build our programs
around what we call a community needs
assessment in a particular community,
what are people kinda going through.
That really gives us a good guide, a
good North Star, but we don't know what
stage of that need our population is at.
So I'll give you a, a quick example.
Because of this app, when you go in,
you do 14 questions, and you'll have
an idea in my community or in my
populat- And you could do it by tax,
you could do it by your zip code, you
could do it by a program, you could do
it by a family member on this piece.
You're able to know when it comes to
nutrition, in this example, are you
able to do-- eat three meals a day?
Do you eat three meals a day
with some government help?
Do you do a kinda hybrid model?
Do you eat three meals a day,
or do you have enough to share?
Based on that answer, now as an
organization, as a, as a, as a public
service, uh, uh, entity, now you
know, hey, when it comes to nutrition,
this population, they're all kind
of at the stage of independency.
They have enough to build.
But we've been spending so
much money on like, we need
to get people to food stamps.
But that's not the need.
It's just because the loudest voice
in the room wasn't the signal within
the noise, but we never had the
visibility to know that in this piece.
So, so not only does the resource find
the individual where they're at, the
entity now has visibility in where
should we investing the priority,
the time, and energy towards that
has never existed in any community.
It's insane because it's
living, acting data points to
serve that are serving back.
It's v- It's, it's-- That's
just a compounding effect
from an agency standpoint.
From a case manager's piece, one
individual, an example, she said,
"Hey," as a, as a participant, "I don't
like speaking with someone 'cause I
have to tell my same story 800 times."
And sometimes that person you're
telling your story to is not the
one that can do something about it.
So you start feeling
down and down and down.
What you learn is just to
be more quiet, honestly.
In the counterintuitive, we have case
managers telling us, "Hey, I used to dread
doing an intake because I knew I don't
wanna ask, ask a question that I don't
want the answer to 'cause I can't help.
I c-- I didn't have theâ¦"
My-- Maybe my mission and my program
was very, very specific to education
and upskilling, but the person needed
transportation to get there, and our
transportation system may not be the
strongest at this moment in time.
So what she told me to me was, "I've
learned, does it need to be said, does
it need to be said by me and right now?
And if the answer was I can't help
this person, I just stop asking."
Talk about the compassion fatigue of a
caseworker that shows up every single day.
And now they said, "Hey, I know that
I have resources to-- that they could
take with them to at least be able
to connect them to someone that could
do something about it while I help
them through this particular need."
That just didn't exist before.
Uh, this is-- And this
is just the beginning.
What you guys are doing.
Thank you.
Mike Pine: To get, to, to circle back to
Kevin's question, so Goodwill's just in,
in the beginning nationally, nationwide in
perspective, um, starting to adopt this.
And Rec- and I guess that's kinda
your main job at Goodwill is, is,
is helping them find and adopt new
technology to help multiply the effects.
So, um, I think you
started with one chapter.
Michelle, how many chapters of
G- is it chapters or district?
Chapters of Goodwill are
there in the country?
What, what do we call them?
Michelle Roberts: Um, w-
we're individual territories.
Mike Pine: Individual territories
Michelle Roberts: So, so each
Goodwill has a territory that is
assigned to them, and I do not have
that number off the top of my head.
Is it, Adrian, do you know the-
Adrian Gessen: Yeah.
So we're, we're, we're start-- we do
about two a month in this example.
So, uh, we started in Texas, uh, as well
in Ohio just because of the particular
need and the, and the region, that piece.
Uh, there's one in Florida already
adopted, um, and right on the
next is Sandusky, Ohio, and then
we're kinda just moving across.
Uh, we'll probably head to California
next as well because National
Catholic Charities already kind of
implemented it, uh, the Seattle YMCA.
So we're trying to kinda build this, uh,
this system, but technology is turbulence.
It's getting folks to understand
and, and see what meets their need.
Some agencies
Mike Pine: get people to
adopt new technology too.
I think you
Adrian Gessen: Well, and also it's tooâ¦
Mike Pine: locations, 143 or
something loca- somewhere around that.
And the vision you have, Adrian,
and man, I'm a believer and I'm part
of that now, and so is Kevin, is to
implement it and prove how well it works
and how much it helps each of these
locations so that they want to adopt it.
And then you guys have worked
out the bugs so it's easier for
them to adopt the technology.
Adrian Gessen: That's right.
That's right.
You wanna curate, I mean, th-that
there's about 14 main social determinants
of wellbeing and wellness, from
dependent coverage to transportation,
nutrition, um, educational access.
So we're kinda going through each one
of those pieces 'cause that's gonna
be a curated vertical specific toâ¦
I mean, there, there's so many
resources out there people are knocking
that we had no idea it existed.
National, huge resource that's in this
piece, uh, that's now been connected.
So we first started with financial
literacy access and equity specific
to, uh, individuals transitioning,
um, into right now into the,
the food insecurity space.
We've done obviously the, the work
skilling and the educational side.
Um, and, uh, so we're just
kinda going one at a time.
Um, mental health, substance abuse
is in the app in many, many ways, but
what else can we add to that depending
on the season where someone is at?
So again, stabilization, we kind of first
started there to make sure folks have
critical care when they need it the most.
Uh, the rebuilding phase of having
that transition into volunteering,
into work, into education is there.
Now we're going to the next piece.
But I mean, this is, this is
something that is so needed and so
many people are so excited to help.
It's, it's overwhelming in a good way,
so we're kinda just curating it, um, as
we go with these federated models that
truly are experts and have understood
their lane for us to learn from
Kevin Schneider: Yeah.
Well, I wanna be respectful of
your time, so, um, any closing
thoughts Michelle, Adrian?
Adrian Gessen: Uh, for me, just thank you.
Um, what you guys are
doing, it's incredible.
It's, uh, for two decades and, and
maybe between both of us, it's, um,
it's remarkable what the folks you
connected us with, remarkable the
resources to provide and the expansion
that this is providing to so many
public serving sectors out there.
It's, it'sâ¦
Thank you
Michelle Roberts: And I think too, the
exposure of what Goodwill really does.
It, you know, we are so
much more than a store.
And, and I think so many times,
you know, it is great that our
brand is, um, donating because
that is critical to what we do.
Um, but our mission side is, you know,
just so vast and there's so many things.
And, you know, we're, we're one
Goodwill, but there are so many across
the United States that are doing so
many great things in local communities.
And the more that people can learn about
that, I think it is just very important.
Mike Pine: Thank you so much for what you
guys do, and you're thanking us, Adrian.
I would just say thank you for the
honor and the privilege to be able
to do a little of our part, the easy
part, um, in, in sponsoring this
fund to raise funds for you guys.
This, this is awesome, and you guys are
doing the hard work, and it's a privilege
to, to be able to partner with you guys.
Thank you so much
Michelle Roberts: Thank you
Thank you for listening to this episode.
Revo Taxpayer Advocacy LLC is not licensed
or registered as a CPA firm with the
Texas State Board of Public Accountancy.
I'm a CPA, Kevin's a CPA.
We have a lot of CPAs on staff that are
licensed and held to the same standards.
However, when we decided to be
revolutionary and change our name to Revo
Taxpayer Advocacy, the state board would
not allow that and let us remain licensed.
They say we have to have one
of our names in the firm for
us to be licensed as a firm.
And guess what?
It's not us that's important.
It's revolutionizing the way you feel
about taxes and saving you money.
We are advocates for you, so we were
willing to drop our firm license even
though we're still individually licensed.