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Welcome to The Anti-Racism Leadership Institute, where we engage in thoughtful conversations with professors and visionary leaders who are dedicated to dismantling racism in schools and transforming education. Join us as we explore their inspiring journeys, innovative strategies, and impactful initiatives aimed at creating more inclusive, equitable, and anti-racist learning environments. Our podcast is a platform for sharing insights, stories, and actionable ideas that can help shape a brighter, more just future for education. Tune in and be inspired to be a part of the change!
Welcome to the Anti Racism Leadership
Institute Research and Practice Podcast.
Today, we have the opportunity to
talk with Tony De La Rosa about his
book, Teaching the Invisible Race.
Soon to be Dr.
De La Rosa is currently a doctoral
student at my alma mater, the University
of Wisconsin Madison, and embarking on
a prolific book tour across the country.
Let's listen in.
Welcome.
And thank you so much for coming on the
Anti Racist Leadership Institute podcast.
I cannot believe I have the opportunity to
talk with Tony De La Rosa, soon to be Dr.
De La Rosa.
I have his book is I'm
45 left, 45 minutes left.
I'm, I'm tripping, right?
I haven't finished it before, but I'm so
been reading this book for, for actually
weeks because I've been going through
it every day, every day and, and sort of
not reading, but have read to me chapter.
I have to reread chapter that
time because there's so much.
So for coming on for this conversation.
And I'd like you to give
you an opportunity for those
who don't know you yet.
Who are you?
And tell us a little bit about you.
Yes.
Thank you so much for
having me on this podcast.
I'm so excited.
You can tell by my energy,
it's my Filipino energy.
So yes, I'm a Filipino American
racial justice educator researcher
around ethnic studies policy and
how it translates into practice.
That's why UW Madison.
And.
A father of one and soon to be
two children, son of Pampangan and
Filipino Cavite, Caviteño immigrants,
and I would say a husband right now.
Wonderful.
Yes, all of that wrapped up in an
incredible sense of someone who is blowing
up in terms of changing the paradigm on
Asian American education, education about
Asian America's sociopolitical history.
And so what brought you, what
brought you to this book?
Why, why did you decide to do this?
Why did you decide to write this book?
this big project, literally, and
When we think about HGSE or Harvard
GSC, I took the course from Dr.
Christina Villarreal, who was my
ethnic studies professor at the time.
And at that time I was
teaching ethnic studies.
I was teaching ethnic studies
through spoken word poetry with my
youth in Indianapolis, in Boston.
And I was weaving in poets from
all cultures, and definitely from
Filipino and Asian American at large.
What I learned was that.
Everywhere I went from state
to state, it was bereft, right?
We did not see or hear when I
asked foundational questions around
who are Asian American leaders.
I can quiz you right now, Dr.
Benson trace, I could quiz you right now.
And then it might, it might
implicate you, you know, like, I
don't want you to feel that that's
not the spine between the hot seat.
But it's just, it implicates the
entire system at large and who has
been invisibilized within the U.
S.
education system, right?
For reasons, right?
For, for reasons, right?
So, that's why I wrote this book.
I wanted to combat teaching
the invisible race.
The Filipinos within Asian America
is invisible within the invisible
and that concept is a through
line throughout the book as well.
So that is a big reason why I wrote
this because I want the book that
I never had as a teacher, right?
As a student, I want the students to know
that their teachers are getting this book.
So they know even if it's the one kid
in the classroom who's Asian American.
They know that their
teachers got their back.
They know how to approach them with
nuance, with care, and with love.
So that's partially why I wrote that book.
And I think it's awesome, right?
You wrote it for a book that you
would have wanted when you were a
teacher, the curriculum you wanted
when you were a kid, the passion
comes through in the writing, and it's
not just good for Asian Americans.
It's good for every student, right?
Because the questions you ask, I'm like,
these are like mad rhetorical, like,
because I, the question on these, I'm
just sounding like I actually do not
know any sort of I was talking with my
wife, my wife's a history professor Asian
leaders in America, we're like, huh.
Yeah.
That is a very good question.
So, what is the importance
of this intervention right
now at this time in 2024?
I think it's tremendously important,
but I want to hear it from you.
You make a very important intervention,
Yes,
it is an intervention.
It was a response to 2020
and way before.
But like
2020 was the mark of
like
George Floyd, the murder of
him, and at the simultaneously
the rise of anti-Asian hate
in Racism, like let's call it what it is.
Let's call it what it is.
And
,
a lot of orgs were
like
tracking hate crimes, which
eventually came up to in 2022
according to the stop Asian
or
hate report cards
and organization that collects this data
around 11,000 reports.
And that's the,
that's only the reported.
Asian American hate crimes.
So what's the underreported.
And then like
that's 2022 what's happening now.
I just saw a report recently that
said, I think by Axios that said that
stop like Asian, Asian hate crimes
are being underreported now or like
receiving less visibility right now.
As you think about the neoliberal
state of mind where people jump
from one issue to the next, because.
Media dictates what
our cravings should be.
What our libido for
activism should be, right?
So that's where it started
and why I wrote
and
where,
where it comes from
and where it situates.
right?
And I'm glad that you brought up
George Floyd, because this sort
of frames my next question, right?
Because as an African American,
folks who are, especially my white I
wouldn't say friends, but I would say
more acquaintances we're asking more
questions around like, oh my gosh,
you know, what is this recent rise in
violence around, you know, for black
males in our judicial system, like,
what is this police violence in my mind?
I'm Like this is age old
this ain't new, right?
Just because white America
learns is new to say new.
And so when you talk about, you know,
during the time in, you know, COVID
and, and after about the rise in anti
Asian sentiment, this is not new.
And so for folks who don't understand
the long history in the U.S of
these type of sentiments, can you,
like, school us a little bit on,
this isn't new, this is placed in
our history in a very profound way.
Yeah, this is an American tradition.
This is presidential, you know, let
me let me go over into some of these,
like policies from the president's side
and you know I'm saying like President
Franklin D Roosevelt executive order 9066.
The internment or incarceration
of Japanese American, right?
President Lyndon B.
Johnson Hart-Celler Act in 1965,
shifting an immigrant quota
system to an merit based system.
That's like leaning into like model
minority, like I, like notions, right?
And then President Donald Trump.
Executive order 13769 in 2017,
also known as the Muslim ban.
So this has been an ongoing
thing, whether it's from a policy.
And that flows into ideologies and habits
and ways of being on the ground, right?
And then I think people just forget
of the policy and that policies
are being created to this day.
To disenfranchise, to oppress
Asian Americans, to put them to the
fringes or, or to weaponize them
as tools of anti Blackness, right?
To further a conservative right agenda.
So, like, we have always been used.
And that's, to me a criticality of this
book is like we're objectified, right?
We're used as something and like part of
this book also is not just for non Asians.
I do want Asians to pick up this book
because I want them to find the agency.
They have it, but I want them to
find a sense of self agency and to be
like, yo, ooh, I've been objectified.
Here's when and how do
I take that agency back?
Awesome, yeah, and I, and I, this
concept of wedging that you talk
about and it's in a, an offshoot and
weaponization of white supremacy that
we're going to gaslight people of color
to say these Asian Americans are these
model minorities, and you all need
to be like them, and we're going to.
Even though they are still
very real receivers of
ongoing racism in our society.
And want to think about how to interject,
because your book is basically a teacher's
manual of how to embed this curriculum
within your classroom, the question is
where does it fit and how does it fit?
And I say that because if I'm thinking
back to my experience in elementary
school, and yes, I would have.
As a black, black boy, right?
I think I learned about slavery like the
third grade, I'm like, Ooh, that's harsh.
So I remember learning about slavery.
I remember learning about
Native American genocide.
They don't call it that.
And they also remember learning about the
Holocaust, but all of this history with
Asian Americans is completely absent.
Where does it go?
Yeah, so for me personally, like, from
a personal level, I, when I recollect
my information, I always go back and
like, where does this live in the body?
Where do I remember it?
And ever, another reason why I wrote
the book was because I remember it.
As in passivity, in relation to war,
and that what does that do to you?
I say that's in book.
What does that do to you?
If all you can remember is yourself
in a passive voice or in relation
to war, you're going to be situated
in that narrative and boxed in as
either little brown brother, you're
gonna help us win the war, or we're
going to conquer you, so you're you
fit into a colonial project, right?
And you see yourself.
That's why, some, some homies of mine
, about the colonial mentality so, where it
fits into education, I want it to be in
history courses like, my target audience
was teachers, for sure upper elementary,
because I used to teach upper elementary
all the way up to first year, ninth
grade, humanities, and social studies.
So those it's a broad range.
When I was a teacher coach, I can
see history teachers use this book to
make sure their content is correct.
Because I remember coaching teachers
who would teach about white man's
burden, for example, and then point.
Use imagery, and I love using art because
I'm an artist myself, an arts educator,
and use art, political cartoons, and say
the wrong Asian, or like, that's wrong.
We're not, we're all the same, they'll
say, or they'll just say, they'll
minimize it or homogenize and say, Oh,
that was a native indigenous person.
Oh, okay.
Like, who was it?
It was a Filipino.
Oh, yes, that's where I interject, right?
And that's another reason why I
wrote this book, because I was
like, Oh, my God, these teachers.
These teachers are not just glazing over
these things that are so critical for us.
And to build like cross racial
solidarity with Asians, right?
Cause that's essentially a, another
core reason for this book is like,
I wanted there's my own theory in
this book is to create cross racial
solidarity with Asians after they
read this book, that's an outcome.
So social studies teachers.
ELA and literature teachers can embed
it, like history is like, objectively,
you can put it in your history
when you're teaching about those
wars, because war is a huge facet.
Talking about the Cold War, that's where
model minority concepts came out of.
And then in terms of literature and
history, oh my, literature and ELA,
So much, so much curriculum being
written today about from Asian American
writers, poets nonfiction fiction that
I want people to think about that.
They can Lao authors, right?
Can anyone name Lao author?
You talked about your
family being part Laos.
They don't know about the,
the, the secret war, right?
If you don't know about the secret
war and how we were used to.
Hmong and Lao folks to fight each
other and Vietnamese folks, that
triangulation and everyone else
just watching and funding it.
You don't really understand what Southeast
Asians are going through, what not
having a home to return back to means.
Refugeeism means.
You don't get to understand that.
So when you are able to embed that,
just simple narratives different
ethnicities other than East Asian
there's mostly East Asian out
there, american born Chinese, we're
still fighting up, like, an upward
battle because that didn't even
get on Disney returned for a second
season, you know what I'm saying?
So again, there's so much to
be talked about and woven into.
When we think about those core subjects.
And I haven't even touched the
surface with math yet either, or STEM.
That's like my second book, right?
But for now we're going to
focus on the humanities,
Awesome.
Because it is absent from, , it's,
it's not accidentally absent.
Someone made this curriculum.
Someone decided what was important.
Someone decided who was important.
And who to center and who to leave out.
So for those who are listening
to this podcast, school leaders,
and even teachers and anyone in
education, that there is room because
it's been purposefully left out.
And you mentioned that, yes, part of
my family, my son I'm African American.
His mother is Lao.
And When we were together I was in
close proximity to Lao culture which
I had previously not even known
what a Southeast Asian person was.
I grew up in Wisconsin and so there
aren't a lot of Asians where I was at
and of course, I was like everyone else,
I'm thinking Chinese, Japanese, Korean,
because that's all I knew but even with
proximity, I started to know more, and
what we often hear, because this is
something that you, you get to in your
book about this colonial mentality, is
that in my work, when I am Coaching folks
from either someone of color who's not,
doesn't have a deep depth of knowledge
around anti racism or someone white.
They'll immediately bring up, well, you
know, I, my best friend is black, or I
have a partner that's black, or I have a
child that's black as a marker that I'm
somehow more proximate to anti racism.
And I know from my experience, even
though my son is Lao, his mother is
Lao, We are a very close blended family.
With my current wife, it still, it does
not even scratch the surface around what I
really need to know about Asian Americans.
And so how does that fit into your
idea that even in spaces without Asian
Americans, this curriculum is necessary?
Oh my goodness.
Yes.
How are you going to learn about this?
How are we going to learn and show up in
cross racial justice with Asian America?
If you are not carving out space to
learn about it, one, like finding out
in yourself that you don't know it.
One.
And then to finding out the resource to
get it like, how are you want to do that?
If we don't bring it to districts
states and areas that are not
aggregate Asian America, that's
like part of the purpose of my book
because I grew up in the Midwest.
Like I grew up in, well, first of all,
I grew up in San Diego, California, you
know, my West coast flavor, you can still
feel it and taste it and understand it.
But I brought it to the Midwest,
like when, when I was 11, 12.
, I, I became a brown boy in a sea of white,
so I was that I was the curriculum fam.
Like I was the curriculum,
that's what Emily style says.
Like half of the kids go when you,
when you enter a classroom, half
of the curriculum is your students.
So that's kind of like the
reframing in this book too.
It's like, Oh yes.
And if half of the curriculum, if all
the curriculum is white or black or not
Asian, then how are you going to embed it?
There's that.
That call to action.
So yeah, I mean, it needs, it like,
it's like, I got this same content
and same risk, like response from
a colleague of mine in Indiana.
They're like, you need to target this
book to like districts that serve Asians.
And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.
Let's pause.
Let's see, like, let's
examine what you're saying.
You're saying that this is only
important for districts that
are serving Asian Americans.
Yes.
From a racial capitalism view it aligns.
Because there's Asian Americans there for
representation, ethno racial matching.
I get what you're doing there.
You want to do affirmations from a
culturally relevant teaching perspective.
However, we're filling up a
colonial gap of omission, right?
This is, if I go to rewrote this book,
it would be teaching the omitted race.
Cause you said.
Tracy, like we are actively
omitted, not invisiblize.
Invisiblize is too passive for me.
It's still kind of like an
outcome of active omission.
So in the areas like in Wisconsin,
let me start to talk about
Wisconsin, Ripon, Wisconsin.
I was, I was performing
in Ripon, Wisconsin.
This is the founding party
of the Republican party.
Okay.
And let me tell you, it's a small liberal
arts college of 700 folks, well meaning
white folks, and they needed this so much.
They're like, Oh my goodness, if it
wasn't for you coming to my campus
today, I would never, ever have learned
about this through my whole experience,
not through my K 12 and not through my
college experience, which means at large.
And if that's a big chunk of
America, let's scale it, right?
Like then that shows that the
rest of America, a huge chunk of
America is never going to encounter
Asian American racial literacy.
Or be literate in our social,
political consciousness work, so
that's why it's so important right now.
And that's why a lot of people
are fighting for representation.
I know that's, that's a
surface, but that's what was
the starting point because.
One, you just don't even
know where to start.
You just don't even know
how to name who we are.
And then once you're able to go in there,
the next big issue is sustaining the work.
And that's why I liked cultural
responsive sustaining pedagogies.
I love that aspect in that alteration of
the theory, because we definitely want
to emphasize the sustaining portion of
the work because again, it's combats
that the neoliberal, like one off.
One off time, I'm going to get this
book, this training, this one day
workshop, and we're good to go.
No, even for me as an anti racist,
aspiring abolitionist educator, I
need to go back and re reference
these things, because I'm not
always surrounded by Black folks.
I'm not always surrounded
by Indigenous folks, right?
So I'm constantly putting in my
schedule a time and a place to learn
about it, re learn about it, go back
to my notes, because by capacity, we
can't hold it all up in our heads.
So, just to, just to, just to like carve
out and like, really like circle back
it really, we really need this because
it's not going to be present if it's not
near you, you're not going to get it.
That's just a clear
response to your answer.
right.
Excellent.
I love that.
And these concepts right now, I've just
submitted a paper on on a series of papers
on education, leadership, constructive,
developmental and anti racism about how we
as leaders of different racial backgrounds
interact with leadership in schools.
Based on our race and how
schools interact with us.
A lot of the concepts you talk about,
there's very is a sort of a one to
one with what I've been studying.
I'm nowhere near an expert, but I
believed in my research around a number
of different interviews with people
from different racial backgrounds,
and one of the central concepts that
I want to talk to you about Another
two concepts that you're gonna choose
because there's so much here that
you want folks to sort of like to,
like, what's their appetite around.
Okay, you don't understand this concept.
This is what it is.
Come read the book, and when
you talk about the personal is
the political, and I love it.
You leave with story.
The personal is the political.
The personal is the political.
And that concept is so powerful,
especially when it comes to
students lived experience.
Can you explain this concept and why you
chose to mobilize it throughout the book?
Yo, so personal is political.
I was, when I think about the cadence
and I was like, what do I want to
put out in the world right now?
You know what I had is really zoom out.
I was like, What am I reading?
What am I seeing?
What am I seeing?
What are all the PD books that I got?
Because this is technically a PD
book right for schools and some
corporate places have adopted as well.
And I'm like, Yes, you too.
You know, It really came down to emotion
and spiritual the intelligences that we
I want people to leave with to engage
and tap into because right now, and I
think we both can agree Tracy is that
there's just an over inundated amount
of like just intelligence as like raw
intelligence IQ and a lack of affirmation
of EQ, we see this in schools and
this is how we recruit when it comes
to teachers in urban school districts
we'll have black and brown students.
Who have massive,
powerful EQs, IQs as well.
But we recruit teachers with the IQ, but
not the heart for the work, heart for
the kids, heart tapped in and ready.
To handle and work with students
who have a high and strong
EQ, what does that mean?
There's a disequilibrium of emotional
intelligence in the classroom.
And then from a leadership standpoint,
EQ can tell me, wow, that's not
the leader I want to follow, right?
I leave, I want to, I want to
listen and learn from someone
who's passionate, right?
So the personal is political.
There's the EQ, right?
I will start with poetry because
I'm a poet, first and foremost, too.
Like, when I was an undergrad, I'm
gonna date myself, but I was listening
to Saul Williams, Def Jam Poetry,
and I was like, that was my thing!
Like, I was like, this is my
political education because I'm
not getting it in the classroom,
and I need to do it for myself.
And then I need to do this in this
book because if I don't do this in the
book, you're only gonna get 50 of me.
The other half that is artistic
Tony, that is emotional and spiritual
Tony, you're not gonna get unless
we transfer this in the book.
That is awesome, and one of Tema
Okun's, aspects of white supremacy
culture is like the worship of the
written word, and you're like, the
written word doesn't have to just be IQ.
It needs to be emotional
intelligence as well, right?
Because that's where
education lies, right?
You have to get students to buy into the
quality of education and see themselves
in the curriculum to really believe that
they need to learn things of quality
and it reflects themselves, right?
And teachers, as you say,
can have the greatest IQ.
You know, the greatest depth of
knowledge, greatest teaching strategies.
But if you don't have the emotional
intelligence to understand, you need
to connect with kids in profound ways.
It limits your ability
to be, to be effective.
And this means
It's effective.
Yeah.
100%.
Awesome.
So I, I, I'm, I want to know like.
Two, two concepts, and I know the
concepts, so if you don't have them, I
can, I can, but the one, the personal
political is one I wanted to bring
out, and then I'll save mine to the
end if we have time, but for folks who
haven't, haven't purchased this book
yet, I want everyone to purchase this
book because it's been such an amazing
master class of it's called Teaching
the Invisible Race by Tony De La Rosa.
It's available everywhere.
You can just type in his name.
It comes up, and hopefully you'll
be able to find you, you found his
podcast cause you Googled it and
then go on and get the book, right?
Listen to him, get the book.
It will be a masterclass in Asian
and Asian American social political
history, and also a roadmap on how to
incorporate this type of curriculum into
your classroom and into your schools.
And so if you have to think about,
we'll take it one at a time.
So I want to know about two concepts.
That are really powerful in the
book that folks will walk away with
an understanding of it will make
them a more effective educator.
Two concepts.
Oh, wow.
So many concepts.
I'm going to go to one of my theories that
I've been theorizing here at UW Madison,
the powerful part of this book was that,
you know, I wrote it on different lands.
I first started writing it on Miccosukee
and Tequesta land in Miami, Florida
and then I went up here, in
Wisconsin, and, and, and,
and I'm like, I'm like, ooh.
So there's indigeneity in this, right?
And trans, it travels, right?
So there's a, there's a, there's
a theory called Isang Bagsak
as an educational framework,
which I've been theorizing here.
And one is to like
embody your indigeneity.
That's one concept.
Isang Bagsak means one fall in Tagalog.
So you're going to get a masterclass
in Tagalog now, you know, and one
fall actually comes from the anti
martial law movement in the 1970s,
where the, the Filipino, we have, and
I don't want to stress people out when
I say the KKK, we had our own KKK,
but it was a revolutionary movement.
My dad jokes about this because
his, my dad's a factory worker.
So he, he'll, his colleagues
would be like, Oh.
Yo, Willie, my dad's Willie, you
have a KKK, but I learned about that.
It's like a good KKK.
I'm like, my dad's
like, yeah, yeah, we do.
We do.
We do.
We don't talk about it in America
because we know what's going
to happen if we bring it up.
But yes, we had the Katipunan and
that's a revolutionary movement.
That's anti martial law that
used to say Isang Bagsak at their
rallies against martial law.
That was transcended
by Artnelson Concordia.
To a rallying cry in the 90s
with the Basanti movement
aligned with the unity clap.
Now, the cross racial solidarity
building with the Chicano,
Filipino farm workers, right?
And with that clap that accelerating
clap at every movement building space, I
wanted to take that ritual and create that
into a cultural practice and a framework.
So I took sociology from Ann Swidler.
And I said, culture as toolkit,
my culture Isang Bagsak as a tool,
let's bring it and stretch it out
into a tool that educators can use.
Okay.
So what is, is what's Isang Baksak?
Isang Baksak can be, and can invoke
multi-partiality when we think
about like being a facilitator,
a designer of programming.
Multi-partiality means holding multiple
perspectives, but then privileging
the most oppressed in any given space.
You have to map that and meet
contextual in any given space.
What does that mean for us?
We have to examine the power
dynamics based on identity
markers in any given space.
That's very difficult because you go
into a space, you're just going to see.
What you know from
phenotype and color, right?
Unless you survey your students and
they tell you these dynamics and then
how they manifest is a different story,
that's multi-partiality.
That's one aspect of multi-partiality
within isang baksak because it helps us
think about multiple perspectives, right?
Another concept within isang baksak as a
theory in the book is transnationalism.
Transnational kapwa.
That's another Tagalog term, in this
movement and today, when we think about
Israel Palestine and the apartheid,
people are not lost for words.
I would argue even anti racist scholars,
because they don't, they don't know
how to go back up to coloniality
and how supremacy and capitalism
are different functions of that.
And I go down, I include Dr.
Myra Rupa's or Rupa Myra's framework
of coloniality and colonialism
and it goes into supremacy,
patriarchy, white supremacy.
Right, exploitation, and then
capitalism, exploitation and it goes
down and breaking that down and going
up to colonialism will help us get
to the root of many things, right?
When we go to anti racism,
sometimes it leaves us short.
It's really helpful, but
it doesn't help us engage.
It kind of immobilizes us when it,
when we think about mapping We think
about the racial contract, this idea
that we exist in a society where
there's a contract that's aligned.
That's the design, right?
Where people will either cross
the line or not when it comes to
race, racialization and racism.
How far will we go to show for our
Palestinian brothers and sisters
and the Jewish folks too, right?
We don't want to, there's
so much going on, right?
When we think about war and
part of this theory helps us.
And I think it's important for us to
embrace this understanding approach
that with more nuance, instead of being
mobilized, when even within that one
chapter, chapter 6 or, he's Isang Bagsak,
there's so much we think about, and I
didn't write it for this, because this
book happened before today's movements,
in Sudan, Congo well those will be going
on, but like, Popular media has made
them popular again, this theory is, I
feel like, evergreen in the sense that
we need a way to stretch ourselves, to
be in coalition, and I don't think we've
thought about that enough in education.
Because when we enter the classroom,
let's bring it back down to the
classroom, and bring it back down to
anybody, and not just Asian Americans.
When you're in the classroom, that
practice is a cross racial, cross-ethno
racial coalitional practice.
And people don't see teaching
as that, in that lens.
And that theory will help teachers
think about it in that lens.
Wow.
Oh, sounds frarian in a lot of ways.
You know that we're not, you know, we're
not using a baking concept that people,
students come with a wealth of knowledge
and a wealth of resources that we're
trying to instead of pour knowledge in,
we're trying to extract the knowledge so
we can sort of co create in the classroom.
Which is a very powerful way of thinking.
And the term, I'm going to
try to pronounce it correctly.
Yes.
We're going to do some masterclass,
so we're going to say it together.
Isang baksak.
You got it.
Perfect.
Gotcha.
ak.
I isang baksak.
ak.
There you go.
Perfect.
Gotcha.
You know, I, I love other language 'cause
you learn how to use different, I feel
like it comes from like right here,
It does.
It does.
It does.
So this concept in short, because I
want folks to attach to this, I want
folks to attach to this concept in
very profound ways that in order to.
To really attach to this sort of way
of thinking, the book will help you
understand how to interrogate what.
We think about abundance mindset in the
classroom and scarcity mindset, I think
we operate within the scarcity mindset.
Because classrooms, you feel like there's
not enough, there's not enough we can
do, there's not enough resources, not
enough emotional intelligence, not enough
intelligence in the room, if we embody
Isang Bagsak we start to see the abundance
that is out there, we think about,
oh, if we see classrooms as coalitions
and potentials for cross coalitions, if
I don't have it here, I can go across
this hall and get it, get what I need.
I can combine resources and get
what I need, oh, I don't have this.
Oh, that, you know, by relationship, I
need to meet if I want to like bring Asian
American identities in the classroom.
Oh, snap.
Wait, is there Asian
Americans within our city?
Wait, I didn't know that.
I didn't even ask that question.
I never even thought about that.
Wait, let me Google this, right?
It gets them curious to Google
and figure out an asset map.
Oh, there's Asian Americans.
Oh, how do we incorporate the
community of Asian America to come
in, even if there's no Asian Americans
in my class right now, right?
Because Asian Americans are everywhere.
There's a community, there's a
China, there's a mini Chinatown,
Lao, Filipino, you name it.
But we haven't even asked that we don't
even know where the assets are, we
haven't even thought about them, so he's
talking about second, even think about
help you think about like, Oh, how do I,
what does he, this is a starting place to
think about cross coalition with Asians.
Let's leave it at that.
Like, if you want to, if you're
like, Oh, how do I, how do I like
concretize my allyship toward Asians?
He's Isang Bagsak is a theory to
help you concretize that because
you're like, where are the steps
every time I go out and speak.
People get overwhelmed because
they're like, what do I even start?
Isang Baksok will help you start.
Like, Multi-partiality?
Let me just, let me just try that one.
You know?
Oh, abundance mindset versus scarcity?
Let me just try that one.
Oh, transactional capital?
Let me just try that one.
And that's the purpose of the book.
I want you to be able to not get
overwhelmed, but I want you to be able to
choose And assess where you're at and then
be like, okay, let me try this and then
move on after I'm good when I get done,
because this is an evergreen resource
that will be useful for ages, I believe.
Gotcha.
So I have, I have two, two final
questions, because the audience, the
intended audience of this podcast,
the Anti Racism Leadership Institute
podcast, Are practitioners, our educators,
teachers, counselors, social workers,
school leaders, district leaders, and
those who are adjacent to education,
and you sort of answer this question,
like, where do we start, right?
Because this book, for
me, it was overwhelming.
And I felt, I didn't feel guilty,
but I felt really stretched with
the questions at the beginning
or embedded within the chapters.
Because I'm like, yes, I am
tremendously, painfully ignorant.
around Asian American history, Asian
American leaders, Asian American culture.
And it can feel like, wow, I am just an
empty vessel that I need to read more
and learn more before I even start.
And that's the antithesis, right?
You can't be neutral in supporting white
supremacy while you're trying to learn to
deploy anti racism and anti colonialism.
And so, where is the someone who
listens, who's inspired by this?
They buy the book, they read it, I
want to try something, it's January.
What can I actually, because you've been
in the classroom, what can I actually do
to start experimenting with decolonizing
my, my curriculum and my pedagogy?
Oh my goodness.
Okay, there's a straight up,
lesson plan that people can
just like pick up and go with.
I forget what chapter it is.
I should know this by heart.
But it's the Hip Hop and Poetry and
Arts chapter, and it's a, it's,
it is a lesson that I actually
crafted at Harvard Ed School.
Like lesson plans that I wanted
to create in my arts and education
program before it got dissolved.
And the idea of art from art from
art, or art and exphrasicism, because
I learned exphrasic ideas from
poetry, how do we write about art?
How do we write about art, and I think
art opens up mirrors, windows, and sliding
glass doors into different portals,
that simple text can't.
So what this lesson plan does is
that what I hope editors can do is
literally you take imagery and living
portraits of political cartoons,
portraits, drawings, it could be
media, it could be poems, right?
And it could be like one of those
stations, gallery walk stations, and you
have like maybe four or five of those,
and you want to teach different concepts,
different You know, if you want to RL 7.
1 citing evidence, text evidence,
you know, you want to go into that 7.
3 if you want to go into central idea if
you want to teach those things, different
political cartoons or arts, to look at
those and examine those standards put
them across the room, ask those questions.
How do you, one, like, one, what's
happening in the, in the art piece,
what are we understanding, right?
If you're reading a piece of poetry
that you're from an Asian American
poet, I put my poetry in there.
So I hope kids are reading my poetry.
What is Tony saying in
this like lunchbox poem,
what's the central idea, right?
Reread, and then like, what's the
text evidence that actually cites.
And how it supports that
central idea, right?
Okay, how, now compare
and contrast, right?
Like, how do we use that poem
that's on the wall to compare with
Clint Smith's poem my jump shot,
because I speak to Af like,
pro Blackness in this book.
Pro Asian Americanist came
from pro Blackness, right?
So how does pro Asianness and pro
Blackness speak to each other from
looking at those two poems together?
That's a whole lesson plan in and
of itself, to be honest with you.
Like, I gave you, like, the structure
of a whole, like, Gallery walk, but
if you want to just look at those two
poems, you can, and you can spend an
entire class looking at like how they
intersect, how they're different, how
decolonization can like map itself here,
and anti racism works better in this one,
oh, social location of place, right?
There's so much you can
do with just two pieces.
And then from there, you bring it back
after those knowledge of the kids like.
Looking at the pieces and then they can
share out right they can do a whole jigsaw
around like what they learned from it.
Or you could, if you add many groups that
just looked at the same piece, we can
have a whole group dialogue around those
pieces, just to see what what people
are riffing off each other it's kind
of like a hip hop cypher now, at this
point, you've gathered the knowledge.
You're shouting this out and then now
after you hear it, if you had some
time to like regurgitate like, chew
on it, you get to regurgitate and then
suddenly someone else is influencing
how you're thinking about the process
or thinking about the content.
So I think that lesson, literally, if you
read it, you copy and paste it and it's
especially like, especially on a rainy
day, especially on a rainy day, it will
save your butt because I know teachers
sometimes are like, Oh my goodness.
I forgot.
My alarm clock didn't ring the right time.
I need to get to school.
I need to print out.
This is the one you can lean
on and open up the book.
You can actually have this
cause the pictures are there.
You can print out the pictures and the
art pieces and they can go up right away.
And you can actually teach that lesson.
So that chapter, go to that chapter
and you're, you're ready to go.
That is awesome that
you give a ready to go.
Here we go.
Get your, dip your toe in
the pond, see how it goes.
And as I'm listening to you, I'm
just picturing myself in fifth grade
because I was a part of an integration
program in Milwaukee, Wisconsin,
where I was the little speck of black.
You know, amongst the sea of white and
to have my jump shot, my lunchbox as a
sort of exploratory activity with my,
with my friends who are white friends
to do an intellectual activity, but also
an emotional activity about examining
two very powerful pieces of poetry.
I would have been felt so seen.
In a curriculum where we are not seen,
you know, where the black community is
seen in terms of slavery and civil rights.
That's it, right?
And Asian Americans, we
don't learn about it at all.
We don't learn about it at all.
It's just not there.
And I had Asian, Asian American
classmates who, yeah, it was just,
we never learned about their history.
It just did not exist.
So I'm just like, this would be so
validating to my fifth grade self.
And so, for those who want to start,
realize that the students who don't
feel seen and feel represented in
any sort of positive light in the
curriculum, this would be very powerful
for them, but then also for those who
are white, who, who aren't, or those
who don't own these identities, it's
powerful learning experience, folks
to really experience the firsthand
sort of artistic, the personalized,
the political, artistic expression of
two folks from different identities.
So I think that is awesome.
So my final question is, 'cause
I know where to find you.
I'm following you Tony.
I'm trying to find where I can get you.
I'm in Kentucky, like you're not here yet.
You said I can bring you, I'm gonna
try my darnedest to get you out here.
But where can folks stay?
I like Tony De La Rosa's work.
I wanna find him.
I know where his book
is, but you know what?
I'm inspired by this, this
podcast, and I wanna reach out.
I wanna find him.
Where, where can, where can
people find you or follow you?
Yeah, people can find me.
So a few places.
So if you want to just see the ecosystem,
that is my brain and my soul and
brain child, that is Tony Rosa speaks.
com.
If you want to follow me in my, my
reflections of current, like very real
time reflections of what's going on in
the world, On IG or Instagram at Tony Rosa
speaks or on Twitter at Tony Rosa speaks.
Those are the main places right now.
My books there, you can't,
you, you can't miss it.
So if you really want to dive in, you
want to really embrace your pro Asian
American lens, which I hope you do.
Like tap in, tap in,
you will not be sorry.
And one, you will be wanting more.
I truly believe so.
Awesome.
And we will link it in the bio, right?
So where to find a book, where to
find, I'm going, I don't really use
Instagram, but I'm going on it, right?
Cause I've been following
him on LinkedIn, right?
Where, like, where is he today?
Following that book tour.
So awesome.
I really thank you so much for
taking time out of your day.
I know you're on a, on a, like a
whirlwind book tour, your graduate
student, your father, the, the day
is full, the plate runneth over,
but for spending this hour with us,
I feel very fortunate and blessed.
So thank you for coming on with us today.
Thanks for having me.
That