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The Queer Stories of 'Cuse podcast series was created by the LGBTQ Resource Center at Syracuse University (SU), in collaboration with The SENSES Project, to curate an oral history archive telling queer stories in an authentic light. This series features interviews of past and present SU students, staff, faculty and community members of the Greater Syracuse area who are passionate about queer issues and advocacy work.
Special thanks to:
The SENSES Project Program Coordinator, Nick Piato
Director of SU LGBTQ Resource Center, Jorge Castillo
Associate Director of SU Office of Supportive Services, Amy Horan Messersmith
Co-hosts: Bushra Naqi, Rio Flores & Sebastian Callahan
Sebastian Callahan 0:02
Hello, my name is Sebastian Callahan and I'm a junior at Syracuse University and as a research assistant for the LGBTQ Center, we're working here to establish our first queer oral history archive. A few of our goals for this project include amplifying a marginalized voices that are often wrongfully spoken for or over. I'm pleased to be here with you. And I would like to extend all my gratitude to you for taking the time out of your schedule to participate in this interview. Please know that you may revoke your consent at any time, or at any point during or after this interview. If you're feeling uncomfortable, or would like to take a break. Just let me know.Your safety is and well being is of our utmost priority. And we definitely want to make that clear. So I thank you so much for taking the time to share your story with us. And we greatly appreciate it.
Patty Hayes: 0:55
My pleasure, yeah,
Speastian Callahan:
Well, thank you so much. I found your name in the when looking through the archives originally. And then I think yesterday, I actually found someone interviewing you, I think is what I found actually, in one of the archives. I think it was called Coffee Talk or something like that. Probably. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it was interesting. It was more questions focused on, you know, parents and such. And, you know, it was definitely, yeah, but I have some more questions here. But I guess we'll just do this as a conversation most of the time, but I have some questions.
Patty hayes 1:39
Great, I'm ready. Yeah.
Sebastian Callhan 1:41
So what's your name? And what are your pronouns if you'd like to share them?
Patty hayes 1:45
My name is Patty Hayes, P-a-t-t-y. H-a-y-e-s. And my pronouns are she/her?
Sebastian Callahan 1:52
Okay. And when and where were you born?
Patty hayes 1:57
I was born in Albany, New York, and I was born in 1972.
Sebastian Callahan 2:05
Okay, and when did you start to come to terms with your queerness? or queer identity? And do you feel comfortable sharing the ways you identify?
Patty hayes 2:15
Sure, um, I identify as a butch dyke. And, well, I should say, I mostly identify as a butch dyke. There are certain contexts in which that self identification makes people uneasy in a way that doesn't help me get to whatever goals I'm trying to achieve, in which case, I'll just, I'll identify as a lesbian until the point where I can be like, you know, lesbians and identifier, but this is a little more socially and politically accurate. And we we can have a bit more of a nuanced conversation, especially a lot of street people are like, I thought I couldn't say that word. So I identify as a butch dyke. When did I start to recognize my queerness? Well, I don't think I would have identified it as queerness back then. But I was 150,000% a tomboy. So I think the first the first inklings I had in anyone had were that, you know, Patti just dresses in boys clothes and plays with all boys, and plays all the boy games and doesn't hang out with girls. And so I think it was more of like a gendered presentation. And then as middle school hit, and my, you know, we were all hitting puberty and the girls in my grade, we're starting to, like, make googly eyes at the boys. And the boys are still like, you know, being boys and kind of goofballs, because they're coming along a little later. I definitely felt out of place. And I definitely started recognizing that I didn't get what the other girls were talking about in terms of making googly eyes at the at the boys so and I didn't have any attraction to them. It took you know, and then crushes came up in high school, but it probably took me until leaving for college that I had the breathing room. I was raised in a very religious family. And so it took me going off to college, and it was in college and I was able to like breathe into to my sexuality and my identities. And it stayed it stayed fairly consistent over the years Um, there was a period of time, actually, when I worked at Syracuse University where I was like, this notion of, you know, bi-gender doesn't quite work, but I've come to really embrace butchness as an identity. Not in a trans-sense, but in a, like, transgressing gender norms sense not in a dysphoric sense. So, that's a long answer. I hope that made sense.
Sebastian Callahan 5:30
No, please, please give me long answers always. We've got you know, as long as Yeah, I love to hear long answers. And please remember, just do not, don't worry about you know, like putting on a filter or anything, especially the way you identify like I'm here, and I'll support you no matter what you say. And yes, I'm here to tell so but yeah, that's great. Going back to that about the bullishness that's that's really interesting, because I'm about to interview Minnie Bruce Pratt and her wife. Oh, yeah. wrote. I think it's called Stone Cold butcher something something
Patty hayes 6:09
That was Minnie Bruce. Pratt's partner, Leslie Feinberg, who passed away a number of years ago wrote stone Bush blues.
Seb astian Callahan 6:20
Stone Butch Blues. Sorry.
Patty hayes 6:22
I'm Butch Blues. Yeah. And when I was working for Syracuse University, we brought Leslie and Minnie Bruce Pratt. And I think it was right after I left SU that many Bruce Pratt came on, on faculty.
Sebastian Callahan 6:40
But yeah,wow. Yeah. But yeah, it's a small world. And yeah, I mean, yeah, I'm really interested to learn more, so we can keep moving on to what's it like, you're going back to what it was like growing up as a member of the LGBT community within your family and friends? What was it? Uh, what was it like, especially between your relationships?
Patty hayes 7:02
Yeah, well, um, you know, in the 70s, and 80s, it was, you know, as quite different. And I was going to high school in the 80s. And I don't you know, I don't recollect anyone being out as a student. I don't even remember anyone really being out out as a teacher, although, you know, there was a teacher to where there were, you know, there are whispers and certainly lots of homophobic name calling, you know, those were the, honestly the same slurs. Now, our were back then. And when I was in, you know, high school, is when the HIV/AIDS crisis first started coming on the scene, and it was when I entered college, in 1990. And and that's when I really first started meeting my first acquaintances and friends who were HIV positive, and had identified as having AIDS, while didn't, I mean, they had AIDS. And and so I feel like when I was, you know, 18, and moving off to college, and starting to grapple with my own sexuality. It was sort of this confluence of times, where there my access to LGBTQ adults was really very limited, you know, too young to get into the bars. Although that didn't stop us from getting in. So like, me know, my access to community was sneaking into bars. And, you know, there were some out faculty. And there were some non traditionally age students, like, you know, older students who were coming back to do their undergraduate degrees. And so my introduction into the community was, you know, a handful of besides my peers, you know, we're a handful of people who identified as lesbian feminists and these kind of relentless, gay AIDS activists and you know, many of whom have passed now and so on. It's interesting. I'm sorry.
Sebastian Callahan 10:04
No, please. I'm I'm really feeling for you right now. It's it's definitely yeah, it's it's a really heavy topic to discuss.
Patty hayes 10:15
Yeah. So and I, it's interesting because I was just at, I just went to a northern Ontario's tiny small town pride. And there was like a million billion little queerlings and it was so fantastic. And I realized that I am now the age, I'm fit, I just turned 50. I am like the age of the adults that I didn't have when I was their age, like when I was their age, they're like, everyone was dying, or just closeted, right. And it really hit me this summer, I was like, Oh, shit, I'm, I'm the adult. I'm the adult I needed when I was their age. And that is kind of wild that in one generation, you know, one or two generations, how how things have turned around, because these little these amazing little queerlings that were running around with the plethora of different identity flags, draped around their necks, like they've never not known. They've always known gay straight alliances in their schools. I'm now living in Canada, these kids, these young queer links have always known to having their rights enshrined in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in Canada. These little ones have always known marriage equality. The little ones, you know, they hear HIV/AIDS, but to them, it's like a chronic illness that you manage, like diabetes. And first of all, I felt old, and I felt it in my knees. No. But you know, so for me when I think back to 1990, in the early 90s, and kind of, you know, it feels like, a really long time ago. And then I turn on CNN, and I look at Florida, and I look at Texas, and I'm like, wow, everything old is new again. And how there's a generation of gay men that are gone. But there's definitely a lot of us who were still around back then. And the degree to which I now feel I have a responsibility to maybe teach some of the activists skills we learned when it literally was March or die. That was I don't know, I don't know if I answered your question.
Sebastian Callahan 12:51
thank you so much,
Patty hayes 12:52
know, it, things felt really urgent, fun, super fun, like. And I feel also there was a like a real sense of community. Because we those of us that were out it was small, and we weren't on TV, and we weren't there. There just wasn't as much. So you had to you know, if you lived in a smaller city, there was the gay bar. And that's where everyone went. And so I feel like there was definitely much more of a sense of community, as well. So, yeah, I'll just sort of pause there.
Sebastian Callahan 13:32
No, well, thank you so much. Because, you know, my years, that's why I'm interviewing you is because my years are from 2001 to 2006. So especially what I wanted to draw on was actually like coming out of AIDS, like, you know, coming out of the serious epidemic that was happening going into the 2000s. And still, it still remains an epidemic. In some places. Not luckily not in America is bad. But um, you know, it's, it's really sad. And it is especially sad, the, you know, the action that was taken by the government, which was, you know, next to nil, and especially how much had to be done for that, to be even recognized as just, you know, not just, you know, like, how the New York Times even put it as a gay disease. And it's yeah, it's crazy. I was just speaking about the rhetoric with Margaret Himley. And yeah, that's she had a whole class on it, actually. And yeah, I wish I could take that class, but too bad. They're not offering it anymore. So yeah, but yeah, well, thank you so much for you know, divulging into that because, you know, that's that's like, please tell me as much as you feel comfortable to saying and, you know, I would love to hear everything you have to say and I'm sure everyone listening to this would love to hear everything you have to say. So, I'll move on to tell me about your role in Syracuse or what your role was. And what that meant to you at the time?
Patty hayes 15:02
Sure, I had to actually go back and look, I was like what yours was I was there. So, I came to Syracuse University, I was doing my Masters of social work. And I was taken a slightly slow route because I, I had already been working in the field. So prior to coming to Syracuse University for my masters social work I was working for back then it was called the Gay Alliance of the Genesee Valley, GHGV, I think now it's just called the alliance. And it's one of the older LGBTQ community centers in the country. And I had been working for a number of years as their youth program coordinator. In fact, I was the GA GV had had a youth group that had been running for quite a long time. And they got some funding from New York state, New York State opened up a big pot of money for non HIV related LGBTQ health programming. And so GHGV applied and got a big big grant for that. They said they wanted to do have a paid youth coordinator. And I had been volunteering with the GHGV. Like they had adult volunteers who would, we would take turns once or twice a month, facilitating the drop in youth group youth group drop in. And so I got the chance to be hired. And so I had built up that position at the Gay Alliance, where when I started there, we were getting two or three kids a week for the weekly drop in and by the time I left, we were getting 30/40 or more kids a week for dropping, we had a case management program. I was doing counseling with the kids, I was running multiple groups a week. I was doing lots of training with high schools. I had so many young people that I had to, I had to start, I had a group for like 18 and under and then a group for like 17 asnd up because it was there was there was nothing. There was nothing. There was nothing there was no GSAs there were GSAs by the time I left, but there was there was none of that. Right. And so the LGBT youth group and the Gay Alliance, that that was it. So I was getting young people as young as 12 And as like old as 24/25. And I was like jeez like I can't have a 25 and a 12 year old in the same group. And through lots of twists and turns, I left the Gay Alliance. And I had already started my MSW part time because I was working. I was working at the Gay Alliance full time and I was also working as a chaplain for an LGBT faith community. That was my side hustle. Wow. Not your average church lady. Um, because I have a master's in Divinity degree as well. And so I interviewed for the graduate assistant position. And I started in August of I looked 2003. I don't know if I was the first graduate assistant. But I think I was close to one of the first and we the Resource Center had just moved was being housed somewhere else on campus. And it just moved to the house on I think it's Ostrom Avenue.
Patty hayes 19:01
I think you might be right, I think yeah, it used to be there.
Patty hayes 19:06
Yeah. And Adria Jaehnig was my direct supervisor, and was an amazing leader. And a really wonderful person to work with and work for. And it was such an exciting, it was such a really exciting time because the LGBT resource center was a fairly new, a fairly new entity on campus. And, you know, there were, were things going on in Syracuse, but it it was again, high schools, there was a lot of fights over gay straight alliances. There was no real community center the, you know, one or the other, the only other real major partner we had was the HIV/AIDS org. So in some ways back then and Adrea and I talked about this a lot and some ways back then the LGBT students Center Resource Center at SU, in some ways was like the community hub for Syracuse. Because we were able to bring in amazing speakers, amazing artists, authors, entertainers, comedians, we were able to do fantastic programming because of like, the support and especially the financial backing from within Syracuse University that really benefited all of Syracuse, right? Because if we're bringing in a comedian like Suzanne Weston Hoffer, or we're bringing in Keith Boykin, or Kate Clinton or you know, whoever we're bringing in, we're not just right, we're not just we didn't just limit that audience. So it was kind of an exciting time to to be a part of the center. And I think Adrea and I I don't want to speak for Adria. So I'll just speak for me. I hope you get to interview Adrea. I'm
Sebastian Callahan 21:30
Im trying I'm trying she hasn’t responded yet.
Patty hayes 21:34
Okay, good. But yeah, okay. You know, I think we both knew that. And so then I was able to do things that really did serve the wider community like we recognize there was no place for trans youth. There had been like, out of the What's the age? What's the HIV/AIDS, Org in Syracuse, I'm blanking right now
Sebastian Callahan 22:05
Act up or something or act. I was just told it by Margaret. Um,
Patty hayes 22:10
I'm blanking on it. But the person who was running the LGBT youth group there, Mary duty. She was running their little youth group like on top of the bajillion kajillion other things she was responsible for. And she and I had worked on projects together when I worked for the Gay Alliance of the Genesee Valley in Rochester. So I went to Mary and I was like, Mary, we need, like, we need a plate. We need a group specific for trans youth and students, not just at SU and she's like, Yeah, I know what you mean. And so, you know, with Adrea’s blessing I went, I went as part of my, my job duties at SU. And Mary recruited someone within their org. And then so basically, su via me, and the HIV AIDS org, we, we were able to start up the first trans youth support group in Syracuse, and so, you know, I think it was really important, not only for campus, but I feel like it was very important for the wider community. The work that Adrea started in the backing and the blessing that we got from SU to do this, so
Sebastian Callahan 23:51
Well, thank you so much for you know, starting this and really helping to start the LGBTQ center now because it's really grown to you know, It's great to see and yeah, I can definitely see like that it's definitely gone through a lot going from a house and now we have a great little, you know, finally a room and shine in a part of the Multicultural Center. And it's, it's really starting to flourish. And this this, you know, oral history is hopefully the first step and yes, thank you so much for also taking the time to share all this and I love to hear about it. It's fantastic to hear about because, you know, people like you really are the cornerstones of you know, why, you know, we're progressing this future and he was born. And okay, so let's move on to how have you made it. What would you say? You've made an impact on in this turbulent time for the LGBT community for social justice? Like what have you done? Or you know, I'm sure you've done so much and just from my heard, I've heard so far, you've already done so much, but are there any other things you'd like to share about, you know, how you've impacted the LGBT community and what you're proud of, and your accomplishments.
Patty hayes 25:16
Um, I think for me, it's been my, my, my consistent work with youth, you know, it's where I started my career, and it's still where my career is, in many ways, you know, like, my mom and my dad both worked, you know, as teachers and administrators, and my mom worked in Hell's Kitchen in New York City and my dad built one of, he built the first school for black South African students in the 1950s, in South Africa, when actually educating black South African students beyond eighth grade was illegal. And he built an illegal school there. So I come from a long history of, of people who look to working with young people and believing that young people, like know what they're doing and, and my job is to sometimes be, you know, the cheerleader sometimes to be the wrecking ball or the snowplow in front of them. So for me, you know, the, that's always been where it's at. And, you know, building really getting to build the youth program out at the Gay Alliance, and then taking a lot of the very same steps and skills to build that I used to build that program. Getting to then work with Adrea. And, and in those early years of the resource center, and for me, the you know, the proof is in the pudding, and that every so often I will, on some social media on the book of faces or whatever, like, out of nowhere, I will get this message from somebody who's now in their 30s. And they're like, do you remember me, I was like, 14, when I met you, and I came to the gay youth group. And now I've gone to school, and I've done this, and I've done that and like, they're alive. Alive was not like a guarantee, especially, you know, back in the 90s, like, a lie was not a guarantee. I mean, it's not a guarantee now. And so to hear that the center is still thriving in to see people go on and have careers and to see them be activists of their own right, you know, um, and like, even just to reflect I talked about just a couple of weeks ago, going up to that little teeny tiny small town pride because I love a good small town pride. And there was like, your typical like, street preacher who is like, you know, spewing what they spew. And all the little queer things were like, oh, no, what did we do and they were like, wringing their hands. Because again, they've never they've, they've known things that I didn't know, when I was their age. Like they they've known rites and groups and things. And so my, my best friend, and I were there, and we're like, Okay, kids, come here. And so we showed them like, we got them chanting, and I got some pride flags. And we use the pride flags to visually block the person in so people couldn't see or hear the street preacher. And, you know, then the action, the quick street action finished in about two hours later, a little, a little one. And they're not little I know, they're like, 16, but in my head, they're my little ones. And, you know, a little one comes running up to me, he's like, are you? Are you the people that started the chanting, and you got us with the flags? And then I was like, Yeah, and he's like, I need to give you a hug. That was the best thing ever. I didn't know we could do that. And, and it was like, right. That's it. That's it. That's what my that's what my purpose is.
Sebastian Callahan 29:33
That's super fantastic. That's literally incredible to hear that, you know, you know, you do that for you know, people younger than I am and people are more in need of it. You know, especially they're the most in need of it is the young ones. And yeah, as you say the queerlings and you know,
Patty hayes 29:52
it's I've been I've been doing this a long time and and I never they're there why get up in the morning.
Sebastian Callahan 30:00
No, that's fantastic. Thank you so much. So if you want to move on, we can move on to how well we can kind of move back actually. And we can go back into if you want to talk a little bit more about how HIV or AIDS affected you, or, you know, any other esoteric world happenings that affected the LGBT community affected you?
Patty hayes 30:25
Yeah, um, yeah, I think I talked a little bit about, you know, sort of the impact of HIV AIDS and in some ways, jumping into that, that world and that activism was, you know, that was my, that was my introduction, in some ways to the community. You know, I remember in 1994 94/95, somewhere around there. I was, I think I was 22 years old, and I'm, I finished my undergraduate degree, and I moved to San Francisco. And that was something because, you know, every week brought a fresh batch of obituaries. And when I was living there, I was working during the day, I was working at Langley Porter, psychiatric as a music therapy in turn. And then I didn't I moved to the city. I didn't know anybody. I moved there by myself. I didn't know anybody. So I do it. A lot of people do. I'm like, Well, let me meet people by volunteering. And I volunteered for the names project aids Memorial Quilt. I don't know if you're familiar with the AIDS quilt. No, I'm not familiar. Names project aids Memorial Quilt. And so it's it, it was a project started. Where people would make Memorial Memorial squares, and they were sewn into like 10 by 10 quilts. And each quilt panel is three by six, which is the size of a grave lot. And so they had a visitor center on the corner of Marquette and Castro, which is like the that's the start of the Big Gay area, especially back in the 90s. Right?
Patty hayes 32:35
Yeah. a Great Gay Mecca is what Marlon Riggs called it.
Patty hayes 32:39
Yeah Yeah, so I was right there. So I'd volunteer at the names project, AIDS Memorial Quilt, and
Patty hayes 32:55
like the people I met, in their stories and their bravery, in the sense of community, and urgency, and that the quilt wasn't just about remembering the dead, it was about fighting like hell for the living and using the quilt to educate. As well as remember. And, you know, we had the visitor center part. And then we had like sewing machines and fabric and stuff in the back. And I remember we had a, we call them the grannies. And it was just a team of older women, a lot of whose sons had died from HIV AIDS. And, you know, people would come in and they would work on their own panels, they knew they were dying. And they would come in, they'd start working on their own panels, and then you wouldn't see them for a while, and you wouldn't see them for a while. And then you'd open up the newspaper, and there would be their obituary, so you would go find their panel and give it to the grannies and the grannies would finish people's panels. And you know, it was intense. But necessary and important. And I don't know if like maybe people have a sense of it now with COVID Because I know a lot of folks my age and older and we were like, Oh, we've been here we've done this. This is familiar. Then I lost four people to COVID
Patty hayes 34:32
I'm so sorry about that.
Patty hayes 34:34
Yeah, thank you. So I'm like, this is like same thing all over again. You know? So in some ways, I was just like, oh, the straight Muggles. They don't know they don't know. They don't know how to do this shit. We know how to do this shit. So yeah, it was it was intense but important, and I don't think you know what you're like you just do it when you have to do it. And then it's later on that you're like, Whoa, what was that? Um, you know, so that was one sort of defining thing was like living in San Francisco in the early 90s, as like a, you know, 22/23/24 year old. And I think for me, the other big defining thing was in the early days of my paid employment as an LGBT youth worker, was the amount of activism that we put into making kids safer in school. You know, in New York state at that time, year after year after year, some legislators would raise they want to amend the anti bullying bill to include sexual orientation. We weren't even talking gender identity back then. Like, I always joke around, I'm like, back in my day, we had gay lesbian, bisexual. But, but like, every year like this would come up and every year get defeated. They're like, we don't need to add sexual orientation, it's fine. And of course, it was never fine. And, you know, some of the highlights for me around that activism were I don't, I think it still exists. I don't know, Empire State pride agenda. Every year, they would have a lobby day. And I would work with the Rochester rep. And we would rent a we rent a full size coach bus. And I would I'm not kidding you. I would bring 40,40 kids under the age of like, 18/19 me, one other adult volunteer and a bus driver and 40 kids. This is how you know when you're younger, I don't know if I could do this now. And we would drive from Rochester to Albany on this damn bus. And when we got there, myself, Mary duty from Syracuse, there was a youth group in Buffalo, a youth group in Albany, a youth group and James Tatsu, Jamestown, New York, and a couple of youth groups from New York City and Long Island would come up and we put all the kids together. And in Albany, and we would train them to how to lobby legislators. And we would work with the kids ahead of time for them to hone their stories, to be able to talk, you know, when you when you go to Albany, you're like trying to catch legislators on elevators, you were booking them appointments, but legislators did, they don't have all day, you got to tell your story and like lickety split, because they don't, they don't have all the attention span in the world. And, and it was very gratifying, because, you know, I'd see the kids dress up, and they'd be practicing their speeches with each other. And we would just like, let them you know, I give them the list of here's your appointments, and I would help them sometimes get there. And it was, it was very gratifying to think that I'm training them for to like advocate, not just for today, but literally the rest of their lives. Like we're giving you a hard core skill that you as a queer kid are going to need when you're a queer adult. Like this is how you do it. And, you know, a couple years of doing this and we actually got them finally to to add sexual orientation, then eventually gender identity but for me, like my early days a youth work. It was a lot of schools didn't give a shit, they still don't, but like they gave even less of a shit then. And I remember I went into a one school where I had it was a suburban school in Rochester, very big jock school. And I had three three boys, teenage boys, all of whom had dropped out in short order of each other because of homophobic harassment. And one of the kids just before he dropped out he had they had suspended my kid because this kid had been beaten up, bullied, beaten up, bullied, beaten up, bullied, shoved into lockers. School did nothing school did nothing. And then the one time one time my kid push another kid back, they suspended my kid and not the bullies that had been doing this all year.
Sebastian Callahan 39:47
And that's atrocious.
Patty hayes 39:50
Yeah, and the kids mom called me up and was like, I need your help. This mother was amazing. Amazing. I worked with amazing parents. So this moms like I need it's gonna be me. and the vice principal and the principal and her in the child, the kid was in some special ed classes and they're going to have this and that and they're going to try and blame it on my kid and it's going to be me and all them and I need you. And I remember like, I walked into this meeting, and the vice principal's like, Who's this and I'm just I introduced myself, I'm like, I'm the Program Youth Program Coordinator at the gay alliance of the Genesee Valley, and I remember, I remember this, I slid my business card across the table. And I just said, I'm here to support and represent the family. And I said, Hey, just before we get started, I wanted to let you know some interesting news that two weeks ago out of Saratoga County, a young gay man who was wrongfully suspended and kept getting repeatedly bullied in school just won a $6 million lawsuit against the school district. This young man sitting next to me here is like the third kid from your school in the last two weeks. I'm thinking a $12 million class action lawsuit sounds good to me. What do you think? And he went like 17 Shades of pale. That was probably the one of the most gratifying, magical moments I've ever had. Was to like, in I was like, I don't know what I was 26/27. And I just threatened a $12 million lawsuit across the table from all these district muckety mucks. Oh my god, they were falling all over themselves to kiss my ass. And I was like not buying it, sweetheart.
Sebastian Callahan 41:39
Yeah, it's great to hear that you took action like that, too, like that. That's amazing to hear. And I'm sure that kid will always remember you and his mom. Like, it's fantastic.
Patty hayes 41:49
Yeah,that kid found me on Facebook. And it's doing real good.
Sebastian Callahan 41:53
Great, great. And that's what I see from the LGBT community. T Q plus community coming out of Syracuse, you know, that's why I chose you to interview and so many others, because your name, I'm just like, I found them. And then I searched them up. And it seemed like you were still doing great things. And I definitely wanted to speak more and hear more about it. And it's great to hear that you have Facebook connections with these people that you spoke to probably 10 or 15 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess we'll move on to let's see about how have you dealt with intersectional oppression against you for your race or gender or sexual orientation or anything else? Etc?
Patty hayes 42:36
Yeah. Well, um, in terms of intersectionality, the truth is, is in many arenas, perhaps except for like gender and sexuality I, in many other arenas am the one considered in the more advantageous positions, right, so I am white. But I have also, I hope, in my career, especially given my dad's legacy, I have recognized that LGBTQ plus people of color, face a different and unique set of experiences, joys and challenges. And in my Gay Alliance days, I was actually able to work with the men of color Health Awareness Project, to establish some LGBTQ youth groups for youth of color. And I, and I hope that I would never call myself an ally. I don't think as a white person, I get to call myself an ally. I think I try to behave and act with integrity, dignity and authenticity, in humility, cultural humility, in a way that reflects what I think an ally should be. But I don't believe it's my place to call myself that.
Sebastian Callahan 44:11
That's, that's great to hear. However you identify yourself.
Patty hayes 44:14
Yeah, I think. I think identifying as a woman. There are certainly been some spaces where I've had to fight sexism. And I'm particularly you know, particularly in spaces where that are more dominated by white gay men, frankly. So that's, I'm not a stranger to that, but it's probably already a little evident that I know I don't intimidate easily. So I'm, I can be I can I can. I can. I can Assert and flex when when I need I can also part of it's also knowing when to be diplomatic and strategic. I'm a big fan of asking myself, Patty, do you want to be right? Or do you want to be strategic? And the answer is almost always I want to be strategic. I think having worked with young people my whole my whole career, I think I've seen ageism, Umm at both ends of the spectrum. I think now we're we're to the point as a larger community that there actually are LGBTQ out seniors. So I'll be curious. You know, as certainly as I age, what that will mean for the community, especially when so many facets of the queer community are focused on youth, and youthfulness. What does it mean to be an aging queer? I guess I'll find out. I hope, I hope I live long enough to find out that's the goal.
Sebastian Callahan 46:08
I'm sure you will. I'm sure you will. You seem to be great.
Patty hayes 46:14
Yeah. So I don't know if I answered the question. But certainly the the idea of intersectionality is, is something I think about frequently because my experience of coming out is really literally just limited to my experience. And I look at, you know, the current generation of queerlings coming out, and you know, I'll run into someone and I'll say, oh, you know, whatever, the, the issue of identity will come up, and they'll be like, Oh, I'm a grey ace, Pan, trans. When and I'm like, they give me a whole thing. And I'm like, I don't even know what that means. But that's awesome! Why don't you tell me like I don't I you know, I have to go, I feel old. And I'm like, where's my goop? Where's the Google? I need the Google. I don't know what they just said to me. And I think it's fabulously exciting that the current generation is like, screw you screw you binary, screw your boxes. I want continuums on every dimension, and I want to slip slide when and where I feel like it and then like, go on with your bad self.
Sebastian Callhan 47:25
Great to see it's honestly good for the coach. Yeah, it's good. For sure. People dress better, especially gay people. You know, it's very, it's, it's obvious. And it's great to see, you know, all sorts of, you know, fluidity and I enjoy going out was just, you know, gives the environment that just like a little bit more of a fire to it, you know?
Patty hayes 47:49
Yeah, it's, it's, it's cool and wild.
Sebastian Callahan 47:53
So, so, yeah, but thanks for telling me about that. Um, let's see. I mean, I've been just loosely going by these questions, you know, because a lot of these questions we cover, you know, and like, then I'll go on, and then we'll have covered it already. So, I mean, I guess I'll move on towards the end.In what places did you feel the most accepted? And who were you around?
Patty hayes 48:33
I think that depends on like, when in my life I'm reflecting on. Um, cuz that would change at different places at different times. Um,
Patty hayes 48:51
I mean, I think, sorry, sorry, I didn't mean to, that's okay. I think like, I'm, I'm one of those people where like, I like, I think, my perception of myself as like, I feel at home in my own skin. And so part of my comfort level is not dependent on on spaces, like I'm gonna be me, you're going to be you. You don't like me, that's okay. Um, I think the places and spaces where I felt most comfortable. In my early years, were the clubs and the bars. You know, when I was 18/19 years old. Those were the gathering spaces. Right? That's what we had. Were the were the gay clubs, and where, you know, we were free and we dressed how we wanted to dress and we danced and we kissed and we fought, and then we made up again, and we learned to do drag together and like I joke around like I'm old enough. Do you know who like Pandora box and Darien Lake are they're like some of the early RuPaul drag race.
Sebastian Callahan 50:06
I've heard of Pandora’s Box.
Patty hayes 50:09
Yeah, so like Dora and Darian and I like we all came out together actually in the same city at the same time. And I remember when Dora and Darian were first like starting, like we were all, like 19/20 years old together. We were all like, coming out together at the same time. And it was it was exciting. When I moved to San Francisco, and I was like 22/23 I found myself in a Catholic LGBT faith community called dignity, which there's still dig, there's dignity still exists. It's a community of queer Catholics. I remember her and I was just Yeah, I was still religious, and I found myself in a dignity community. And there was a number of like, lesbian feminists who were all like taking care of the gay guys who are dying. And the the group that seemed to like adopt me, was this group of gay Catholic Leatherman. So they, you know, would take me out, they knew I was young and poor, and like, these leather guys would take me out to dinner and put me on the back of their float and San Francisco Pride Parade. And, um, you know, they're in their chaps and their leather vests and I'm like, tagging along behind. You know? This so and they were just like, who the fuck is this kid? Like, just okay, come on, come on, come on.
Patty hayes 51:49
You know, like, I was just a little hungry puppy dog, man, you know, and? And over the years, it's it? Yeah, it's I think, you know, people find you find your people. And I and I still find I still find myself at home in the and the leather community is still where I spend most of my time.
Sebastian Callahan 52:14
That's so great. Yeah, just hearing you saying that reminds me of Berlin.
Sebastian Callahan 52:20
Yeah. Okay, we'll move on to let's see, to you, what's the importance of queer people having a home and a chosen family and anything else, et cetera, that comes with, you know, heteronormative, you know, kind of hetero normativity? And, you know, what's the classic home? And, you know, what's the importance of queer people being able to, you know, be able to do as they please, you know, with when it comes to marry? Yeah, having a family?
Patty hayes 52:52
Well, I think the importance of chosen family is the difference between life and death for a lot of us, right? For many queer people, even now. chosen family is more predictable, more reliable, more stable, more steady than families of origin. You know, I live I've been living now in Toronto for quite a while. And I work with a lot of young people who are refugees, immigrant newcomer youth. And, you know, finding queer community in a place sometimes where people are literally it's your safety is at stake. You know, some things haven't changed. Back in my early youth worker days, there were sometimes kids I had to coach on how to run away from home because it was unsafe and violent. And that's not always different right now. And I, you know, I've sometimes explain to people, you know, even there are kids now who are growing up in queer families, right? There's people being born to queer for in, in queer families. But a lot of us still aren't. And when you come out, even in the most supportive of straight families, they're still going to be this part of your life in your experience that they'll never they'll never really truly be able to grasp. You know, so that's kind of the heart, the heart part of things. And, you know, from the more activist side of me, I'm like, I'm all down for chosen families that dismantle any kind of family structure that will dismantle the light, white supremacist, androcentric, patriarchal, you know, hegemonic paradigms that We're all trapped in, I'm all for that. I'm all for like subversion. So the fact that I get chosen family that I can love, and that loves me in the way and sees me in the way I need to be seen. Is is good for me. And it's very powerful. It's very powerful to get to name, who you are in a family structure, you know, the family, you're born into, all you're the second child or the you're the first grandchild or you're the uncle or your, you know, you. But when you get into a family of choice, you get to be you get to name who you are, on your terms, to some people, to a lot of people, especially in Toronto, to a lot of people, I'm Uncle Patty, to a couple of people, I'm dad, to someone I met, when she was 17, at Syracuse University. I'm still her mom. And one person, I'm Mommy. And to someone else I'm Daddy, and it's so like, yeah, I can do all that and more.
Sebastian Callahan 56:15
That's, that's fantastic to hear that you've taken on those. Yeah. Okay, I guess we're getting on to the last, you know, maybe three questions. So I don't want to take out too much of your time. I'm sure you're very busy.
Patty hayes 56:32
I'm good for a little bit. Yeah. Okay. All right.
Sebastian Callahan 56:35
So, what are some things that bring you joy? I mean, we've already covered that the Querlings bring you much joy. But yeah. Yeah.
Patty hayes 56:51
I think that's that's changed, you know, and I think that's just changed by factor of my age. You know, what used to bring me joy was like, going out to the club to a drag show and having a wild time now like the things that bring me joy are, you know, much simpler, more quiet. Stability brings me happiness, like I have a chosen family that is they are my ride or dies. And we've seen each other through some shit and then some. And that stability brings me a lot of joy and comfort.
Sebastian Callahan 57:37
Thank you for that. And what are you grateful? Or who are you grateful for? And are there any words you'd like to share with anyone or anything you'd like anyone to hear?
Patty hayes 57:51
Oh my gosh, I'm grateful for so many people along the way. Um you know, I'm grateful for those early from like kind of again, because we're talking more through queer lenses. Like I'm really grateful for the early lesbian feminists and gay activist who let me tag along and you know, taught me the things and didn't you know, didn't necessarily shield me but also shepherded me
Patty hayes 58:40
I'm grateful to every kid I've ever worked with. Right up until the ones I'm working with right now.
Patty hayes 58:48
And the the amazing lessons they've taught me about life. I'm definitely grateful for every kid and family that's allowed me to walk beside them. And and I feel I feel super blessed. Man, there's probably way too many. Way too many people to be grateful for. Because I don't think I don't think we meet anybody by accident. But it is a choice as to whether we allow ourselves to be moved or whether we choose to be immovable. So yeah.
Sebastian Callahan 59:30
Well put very well put Yeah. Oh, my goodness. That that was great. Thank you so much. So is there anything else you'd like to add about your overall experience as a queer person in Syracuse, or is there any wisdom you want to bestow or any words you'd like to say for people to remember once they finish this?
Patty hayes 59:54
Um, no, no, I think the process of just having this conversation with you makes me think of you know, I'm aware that Syracuse University isn't, is on indigenous lands. And it makes me reflect on, you know, one of the indigenous worldviews, I mean, the best I understand as a white person. And I say what I'm about to say, with a great deal of cultural humility, because there's a great chance I could
Sebastian Callahan 1:00:30
No I'm sure anything you say, I know comes from a good heart. So just,
Patty hayes 1:00:35
You know, I think about in many indigenous communities, when decisions are made, or work is being done, that there is this idea of think seven generations in the past, and think seven generations in the future. And so that would be given where Syracuse sits, you know, on Haudenosaunee territory is for the queer community, to maybe think through those sets of lenses, that as we sit here in 2022, with all that's going on in the world, what would it mean to think seven queer generations past and seven queer generations in the future? And then act accordingly in the moment, and then just do the next right thing? By thinking seven queers generations to the past seven queer generations in the future, and then we'll be okay.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai