Episode 115: We Say "Panty" Like 1000 Times: Meet Rita of Panty Witch (part I)

Rita of Panty Witch joins Amanda to share her experiences as a small business owner and member of the slow fashion community. And we get this round of audio essays rolling with Meredith's story of being her own boss!

Show Notes

Rita of Panty Witch joins Amanda to share her experiences as a small business owner and member of the slow fashion community. At one point in the conversation, Rita said, "There are humans behind every screen."  Get ready to meet this human (Rita) and learn more about what it means to be a maker/business owner in the social media era.  And we get this round of audio essays rolling with Clotheshorse All-Star Meredith, who shares her story of becoming her own boss (and she gives you some great advice).

We will also discuss this tweet from Aja Barber.

Can't get enough slow fashion/fast fashion talk? Check out Amanda's guest spot on Garmology!

Want to find some new, Clotheshorse-approved small businesses to support? Check out the Clotheshorse Small Business Directory.  New makers, sellers, and rad people will be added regularly.

Have a retail story you want to share? A weird "interview" that was really just free work?  An epic job quitting fantasy that we just have to hear? Tell us about it! You can either call the Clotheshorse hotline at ‪[phone]‬ or record an audio message on your phone and send it via email.  Or you can just send an email: [e-mail].


Welcome Revive Athletics as a new sponsor of Clotheshorse (yay thank you)! . Use promo code “reviveit15” to get 15% off your first purchase at reviveathletics.com!

And...please check out Nooworks!  Nooworks is all about making clothes in a sustainable way that make you look and feel good.

If you want to meet other Clotheshorse listeners, join the Clotheshorsing Around facebook group.

Want to support Clotheshorse *and* receive exclusive episodes and some swag? Then become a patron!
You can also make a one-time contribution via Venmo to @crystal_visions

Clotheshorse is brought to you with support from the following sustainable brands:

Thumbprint is Detroit's only fair trade marketplace, located in the historic Eastern Market.  Our small business specializes in products handmade by empowered women in South Africa making a living wage creating things they love like hand painted candles and ceramics! We also carry a curated assortment of  sustainable/natural locally made goods. Thumbprint is a great gift destination for both the special people in your life and for yourself! Browse our online store at thumbprintdetroit.com and find us on instagram @thumbprintdetroit.

Country Feedback is a mom & pop record shop in Tarboro, North Carolina. They specialize in used rock, country, and soul and offer affordable vintage clothing and housewares. Do you have used records you want to sell? Country Feedback wants to buy them! Find us on Instagram @countryfeedbackvintageandvinyl or head downeast and visit our brick and mortar. All are welcome at this inclusive and family-friendly record shop in the country!

Selina Sanders, a social impact brand that specializes in up-cycled clothing, using only reclaimed, vintage or thrifted materials: from tea towels, linens, blankets and quilts.  Sustainably crafted in Los Angeles, each piece is designed to last in one's closet for generations to come.  Maximum Style; Minimal Carbon Footprint

Salt Hats:  purveyors of truly sustainable hats. Hand blocked, sewn and embellished in Detroit, Michigan.

Republica Unicornia Yarns: Hand-Dyed Yarn and notions for the color-obsessed. Made with love and some swearing in fabulous Atlanta, Georgia by Head Yarn Wench Kathleen. Get ready for rainbows with a side of Giving A Damn! Republica Unicornia is all about making your own magic using small-batch, responsibly sourced, hand-dyed yarns and thoughtfully made notions. Slow fashion all the way down and discover the joy of creating your very own beautiful hand knit, crocheted, or woven pieces. Find us on Instagram @republica_unicornia_yarns and at www.republicaunicornia.com.

Gentle Vibes:  We are purveyors of polyester and psychedelic relics! We encourage experimentation and play not only in your wardrobe, but in your home, too. We have thousands of killer vintage pieces ready for their next adventure! 

Picnicwear:  a slow fashion brand, ethically made by hand from vintage and deadstock materials - most notably, vintage towels! Founder, Dani, has worked in the industry as a fashion designer for over 10 years, but started Picnicwear in response to her dissatisfaction with the industry's shortcomings. Picnicwear recently moved to rural North Carolina where all their clothing and accessories are now designed and cut, but the majority of their sewing is done by skilled garment workers in NYC. Their customers take comfort in knowing that all their sewists are paid well above NYC minimum wage. Picnicwear offers minimal waste and maximum authenticity: Future Vintage over future garbage.

Shift Clothing, out of beautiful Astoria, Oregon, with a focus on natural fibers, simple hardworking designs, and putting fat people first.  Discover more at shiftwheeler.com

No Flight Back Vintage:  bringing fun, new life to old things.  Always using recycled and secondhand materials to make dope ass shit for dope ass people.  See more on instagram @noflightbackvintage

Late to the Party, creating one of a kind statement clothing from vintage, salvaged and thrifted textiles. They hope to tap into the dreamy memories we all hold: floral curtains, a childhood dress, the wallpaper in your best friend’s rec room, all while creating modern sustainable garments that you'll love wearing and have for years to come. Late to the Party is passionate about celebrating and preserving textiles, the memories they hold, and the stories they have yet to tell. Check them out on Instagram!

Vino Vintage, based just outside of LA.  We love the hunt of shopping secondhand because you never know what you might find! And catch us at flea markets around Southern California by following us on instagram @vino.vintage so you don’t miss our next event!

Gabriela Antonas is a visual Artist, an ethical trade fashion designer, but Gabriela Antonas is also a radical feminist micro-business.  She’s the one woman band, trying to help you understand, why slow fashion is what the earth needs.  The one woman band, to help you build your brand ! She can take your fashion line from just a concept, and do your sketches, pattern making, grading, sourcing, cutting and sewing for you. Or the second option is  for those who aren’t trying to start a business, and who just want ethical garments! Gabriela will create custom garments for you. Her goal is to help one person, of any size, at a time, including beyond size 40.   For inquiries about this serendipitous intersectional offering of either concept DM her on Instagram to book a consultation. Please follow her on Instagram, Twitter, and Clubhouse at @gabrielaantonas

Dylan Paige is an online clothing and lifestyle brand based out of St. Louis, MO. Our products are chosen with intention for the conscious community. Everything we carry is animal friendly, ethically made, sustainably sourced, and cruelty free. Dylan Paige is for those who never stop questioning where something comes from. We know that personal experience dictates what's sustainable for you, and we are here to help guide and support you to make choices that fit your needs.  Check us out at dylanpaige.com and find us on instagram @dylanpaigelifeandstyle

Located in Whistler, Canada, Velvet Underground is a "velvet jungle" full of vintage and second-hand clothes, plants, a vegan cafe and lots of rad products from other small sustainable businesses. Our mission is to create a brand and community dedicated to promoting self-expression, as well as educating and inspiring a more sustainable and conscious lifestyle both for the people and the planet.

Find us on Instagram @shop_velvetunderground or online at www.shopvelvetunderground.com

Blank Cass, or Blanket Coats by Cass, is focused on restoring, renewing, and reviving the history held within vintage and heirloom textiles. By embodying and transferring the love, craft, and energy that is original to each vintage textile into a new garment, I hope we can reteach ourselves to care for and mend what we have and make it last. Blank Cass lives on Instagram @blank_cass and a website will be launched soon at blankcass.com.

Caren Kinne Studio:  Located in Western Massachusetts, Caren specializes in handcrafted earrings from found, upcycled, and repurposed fabrics as well as other eco-friendly curios,  all with  a hint of nostalgia, a dollop of whimsy, a dash of color and 100% fun.  Caren is an artist/designer who believes the materials we use matter. See more on Instagram @carenkinnestudio

St. Evens is an NYC-based vintage shop that is dedicated to bringing you those special pieces you’ll reach for again and again. More than just a store, St. Evens is dedicated to sharing the stories and history behind the garments. 10% of all sales are donated to a different charitable organization each month. For the month of January, St. Evens is supporting Remake, a community of fashion lovers, women rights advocates, and environmentalists on a mission to change the industry’s harmful practices on people and our planet. New vintage is released every Thursday at wearStEvens.com, with previews of new pieces and more brought to you on Instagram at @wear_st.evens.

Creators & Guests

Host

Amanda Lee McCarty

What is Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty?

Host Amanda Lee McCarty (she/they) decodes and demystifies the fashion and retail industries, and takes on topics like consumerism, workers rights, personal style, and why fashion is a case study in capitalism gone awry.
Your money is as powerful as your vote!
"If you wear clothes, you need to listen to Clotheshorse." --Elise
"If you are human and live in the world, you need to listen to Clotheshorse." --Individually Wrapped

Amanda
Welcome to Clotheshorse, the podcast that has spent far too much time fantasizing about quitting far too many jobs. In fact, I remember one of my fantasies where I had this really horrible abusive CEO would harass me all weekend all night you name it was was a monster. I fantasize about quitting and then throwing a pie in her face, which I realized sounds like a really clowny, circusy fantasy about leaving one's job, but think about it. Getting a pie in your face is so old school and classic because you know what? It's humiliating. And I just thought of all the time. She humiliated me in front of people out of love to see her with some pie on her face. Anyway, that was a long digression. Please tell me your job quitting fantasies.

I'm your host, Amanda and this is episode 115. Our super special guest today is the one and only Panty Witch, aka Rita. And yes, she is the owner, operator, content creator and sewist behind Panty Witch. Rita makes upcycle panties out of reclaimed and vintage materials. To be honest, I'm hesitant to call them panties because they're actually wearable pieces of art. Today, in the first half of our conversation, Rita will tell us the Panty Witch origin story, and she'll also share the tale of the Panty Fairy.

I'll just go ahead and say this is the most times I've said the word panty in such a short time span. And I'll also say that Panty Fairy isn't a magical story. But it is a story with a lot of lessons at the end. So get ready for all of that. But before we board the panty express (that sounds kind of like a softcore porn), it's time to share the first installment of audio essays inspired by The Great Resignation. What is The Great Resignation, you ask? Well, first off, this clearly means that you're not spending as much time on Reddit as I am. But since the spring of 2021, 33 million Americans have quit their jobs. And this phenomenon which has launched 1000, probably 10,000 think pieces, has been dubbed The Great Resignation. Yes, people are quitting their jobs at a remarkable pace. And it's ironic after roughly 10 million Americans lost their jobs at the beginning of the pandemic, it's it's wild to see that we're in this inverse situation right now. Furthermore, the International Labor Organization (ILO) estimates that the pandemic and the subsequent lockdown caused 114 million people globally to lose their jobs in 2020. The ILO also estimates that the working hours lost that year were equivalent to 255 million full time jobs, leading to 3.7 trillion dollars lost in labor income in that year. That's a global figure. But still, we're talking about many, many people losing their jobs, their financial security, no matter how tenuous that security might have been. And generally just so many people being thrust into some really scary situations. Yet here we are, 33 million people quitting their jobs since last spring. Why is that happening? Because we know that we're not all moving off the grid, rejecting consumerism, living off the land, getting into animal husbandry and, you know, learning to grow crops, we're not doing that. And most of these people who have left their jobs still need money. So why is everyone quitting their jobs? And how?

Well like a lot of things we discuss around here? There's no simple answer. In fact, there are just a lot of answers. You know, one is that a lot of people, particularly women, were forced to quit their jobs to care for children and family members. Some double income families found that you know what, that second income was just paying to cover daycare. On top of that, school closures, the subsequent remote schooling, reduced access to childcare, as many daycare centers closed permanently. And then of course, childcare becoming more expensive. This led to a lot of women dropping out of the workforce. On top of that, women accounted for roughly 54% of job losses, meaning layoffs, during the pandemic, and a lot of them just decided they didn't want to go back.

I'm just going to pause here for a moment and say that I believe that gender is not binary. It's not merely male and female. Unfortunately, this is the way most data at this point is presented to us, the public and the government and everyone who's interested in hearing this data. So I can't say how many people who are trans or non binary, are leaving their jobs or lost their jobs, and let's be real, that's a major miss, in the way our government, all of the data, people involved with it, look at us and the impacts of major events, like the pandemic honest, it renders a huge swath of people just invisible. And it says that their experiences, the impacts of events like this on them, don't matter. And that's fundamentally untrue. I know I'm preaching to the choir here. But I just had to say that I would love to see some change there. If any of you actually work in an area that is doing this sort of research and data analysis around people and work and all the other things that we live through as humans. Could you just drop in the good word that we need to stop looking at people as just male or female? Thanks.

This whole thing has been called the she-session, not a particular fan of that name. But you know, it's she and recession, someone felt very clever. But what is concerning and is real is that many experts agree that this mass exodus of women from the job force could impact the careers of an entire generation of women. And I'll just add here, a little nugget that I read earlier this week about women who have left the workforce and sort of tried to stay out of it permanently, or, or at least are very hesitant to go back to it is a lot of women, particularly women who worked in office settings, but just women workers in general, found that they were often performing a lot of paid housekeeping at work, not literally cleaning, although maybe in some cases, they were somehow always the ones who cleaned up the kitchen. It I've seen this happen, but really more of this general sort of emotional, social housekeeping, where they were responsible for doing most of the emotional labor, of making people feel good about work about solving personnel problems of training new employees, and just generally being the people there who made work a more comfortable or at least not terrible place to be. A lot of women were sort of like I spend so much time doing this, that I don't have the energy to do the same sorts of emotional labor at home. I think that's really valid. It's something I've definitely been thinking about a lot this week. Okay, here's another group of people who are just like, I don't, I don't want to dumb job anymore. And that's older workers. A lot of them decided to retire early because it was safer than going into the office every day. And we know that a lot of employers have shown their true colors, meaning their fundamental disregard for the health and well being of their employees during this pandemic. office workers are leaving jobs because they want to make more money as they should. And they're looking for more flexibility and work life balance via remote work and four day work weeks. And man, the amount of articles I read about companies still being resistant to remote work and then hemorrhaging workers and still not changing their ways. I mean, they make me laugh. This is why you have a hard time hiring someone, right? Let people work from home if that's what they want to do.

Most importantly, of all of these people I'm talking about and their different reasons for leaving their jobs,we have to talk about the lower paid workers in retail and service roles. They've said enough is enough, stop underpaying and under employing us while we're forced to work on the frontlines in the riskiest jobs, dealing with incredibly difficult customers who seem to get more difficult with each passing month. Some of these workers are going back to school, some are starting their own businesses. Others are shifting into less customer-facing roles within offices and warehouses. They're just trying to be safer and less abused by the pandemic and its subsequent unemployment, underemployment, then alleged worker shortage. All of this has really exposed a lot of dysfunctional frankly fucked up things that have been happening for years. And we're finally naming it like arduous interview processes with three, four or five interviews, and maybe a couple of projects thrown in along the way. That's, I have so many stories about that I've actually seen Dustin go through so much of this in the past year or two. And then when you're like, Oh, I actually found another job. It's like, but wait. I mean, I know this process has been going on for three months. But you took another job that's happened to me. Well, here's another one. Some of you might have experienced this. Being completely ghosted by recruiters. It's so disrespectful to give these people your time, your resume, phone calls, all the stuff and then never hear from them. Again, that one's a classic. How about this automated screening processes that automatically filter out applicants who request wages that align with their experience, meaning they want more money than the company wants to pay, or people who haven't worked in a while or have any kind of gap in their employment history, which is, a lot of Americans, a lot of people around the world since the dawn of the pandemic, or the system might screen out people who live in specific areas or just aren't using the right kind of jargon. I've been reading a lot about that lately. You know, these applicant screening systems. I mean, LinkedIn offers it. Indeed, Zip Recruiter, plenty of other services that employers are using, you know, ostensibly, cut down on the time that HR needs to spend sifting through applications, which probably also saves the company a lot of money in terms of headcount. But it also means that they miss, they missed so many great applicants, here, we are talking about all the flaws in the hiring process. But let's talk about the flaws in the actual working of the jobs that the pandemic has really just cast a spotlight on, right like we've got service industry workers who were expected to work 1020 days straight with no time off, or retail workers who were capped just under 35 hours every week. So the company could deny them benefits or how about on-call shifts, we talked about those in the last episode. Low wages, poor benefits, toxic work cultures, working all day, every day, bad bosses, you name it, the era of hustle culture, and taking whatever you get thrown at you, allowing yourself to be treated however, because you feel like you don't have a choice. I like to believe that this is dead, or at least very close to it. The idea that we would work for the same company 1020 30 years like our grandparents did. That's been an antiquated idea for a while. But now we know that even spending two years working for a toxic abusive company doesn't have to happen. Can I tell you how many older people in my life gave me the same advice in my career, that you have to stay somewhere for at least two years for it to count on your resume. And if you don't, future employers will judge you. So you're supposed to put up with two years of misery just for what I I feel like that's a myth, just like the permanent record, right? We know now that we don't need to do that. I had an interview in fall 2020, where the interviewer, who I'm gonna be honest, she did not want to hire me. It was kind of the most awkward interview I've ever had. And I felt like maybe her boss saw my resume and was forcing her to interview me. But she didn't want me there. She said, You seem like you're a little bit of a Job Hopper. You've worked for four companies in 15 years. And I was like, Excuse me? That's some old timey thinking. Right?

That era is done. Because for too long, employers have held the power. While so many of us are desperate for a job. And I think we're finally realizing that they need us more than we need them. We always thought we needed them to get that paycheck. But the reality is, they needed us to have a company. Last month, they challenged all of you to create audio essays around your own experiences with work, quitting jobs, following your dreams, changing up how you make a living. And today we're going to get the audio essays rolling with a great one from someone you know, she's a friend of the pod. She's the clotheshorse all star. It's Meredith. She's going to talk to us about some jobs she's left including her most recent one and she's going to share how she made the transition into working for herself. I think it's gonna be really inspiring for you. So let's give it a listen.

Meredith (audio essay)
Hello, everyone out there in radio podcast land, especially Amanda, happy to hear that you made it to Austin just fine. I know moving is a huge pain in the ass in whether you're moving down the hallway, or like you across state lines, so I'm happy that you made it there. That's the hardest part and the best is yet to come. So excited and happy for you and your new adventure. For everyone else out there, you guys should know me if you've listened a little bit. I think the last time I was on was the grand, celebratory, 100th episode of clotheshorse that I was so honored to be a part of. So thank you so much again, Amanda, for letting me record that wonderful session with you. I loved it so much, and Halloween still is the best holiday. But I was excited to hear about the new prompt for the audio essay. I started hearing word about this great resignation. Pretty early on in the pandemic, it was all over the news. And I just remember listening to those stories and being jealous. At the time, I was not happy at all at my job. And I hadn't been at that job for very long either. I had left my corporate gig a few years back and struck out on a new journey. I definitely took a risk, I took a pay cut. But for some reason, I felt like it was the right thing to do at that time. And looking back now, I certainly don't have any regrets doing it. But it was probably one of the most professionally challenging situations that I've ever been in for a myriad of reasons. And I won't get into all of them. But it definitely panned out to be something a little bit different than what I was expecting. However, I'm kind of committed to a fault and driven to a fault. I don't want that feeling like I've I don't know, like I haven't done it right or I haven't succeeded. That's just something that's been instilled in me from a very young age. And it drives me to have a wonderful work ethic on one hand, but on another hand, it sometimes lends to my own personal unhappiness. It's definitely something that I'm very aware of. But this job wasn't one that I wasn't going to just walk away from. I felt like because I had left this pretty decent job, you know, it got a little cushy and monotonous at the end. And that's kind of why I wanted to leave, I knew that there was more out there for me to learn. And I wasn't getting any more. But at the same time it paid really well. I like the people that I worked with, you know it, it had great benefits. You know what, why on earth would I want to leave something like that. And even though that company, we had gone through so many layoffs, it still just felt like it was home. But I struck off and did what I had to do and took on this new position. But, you know, like I said, it didn't really pan out the way that I liked it. On top of that, I had recently hired a friend of mine to join the team. And I had hit pretty much a new low when she started and I felt terrible because I had never been more stressed out frustrated, upset, confused, stressed, and I mentioned that. Then I had the entire time I'd been at that company. And I was committed to making it a better place for my team. By that point, I was managing a small team and I really made it my focus to build up morale as much as possible. If I could do one thing, I knew I could do that. And I didn't want to leave them. But there was an odd turn of events. The company was small. It was a startup for sure. And the majority stake owners were just this very large parent company that we saw here and there. We heard of here and there but didn't interact with a whole lot. I knew that the quote unquote suits if you will, we're coming into town and buy into town coming down from

Malibu for events to have a meeting. With the, the CEO and the CEO of the company, there was some scrambling going on, I knew that the CEO was really stressed out. So I figured it was a pretty big meeting. But I didn't ask any questions. The next day, he seemed a little off, you know, a little extra stressed. But that wasn't out of the ordinary. At this point, I shared an office with the CEO. And just kept going along my way, I was really, really nice deep in a project that had just gone completely awry. And everything that could have gone wrong went wrong. And I was almost at the end of sorting everything out when all of this went down. So I was actually feeling a little bit relieved, because I felt like I had finally, you know, gotten to the top of this insurmountable mountain. One day, a few days later, after that meeting, I was pulled into our conference room at around noon, and the CEO and CEO were there. And I just figured, okay, they need to talk to me about something. I knew I hadn't been doing the best of jobs. But you know, given the circumstances, I always stood firmly behind my work ethic and my drive, and hey, you know, we've figured it out and fixed it. But the conversation wasn't going to be about that, it was about the fact that our budget had been slashed. And I guess we had not been doing as well as the two of them thought we had, I'm still a bit confused how they were so side swiped by the whole thing. You know, it seems like you would have at least had some kind of inkling that financially, things weren't going so well. But I was essentially put in a really awful position. And I've thought a lot about it. I mean, I'm glad that I was involved in this decision, at least. And I understand why they did it. But it's also kind of a unique situation that I don't think I've heard anyone ever had to be a part of. I was given the budget for my department, which at the time had four people, I think, four or five people. And basically, we needed to keep only two. And the budget that was left for those two people was very small. Now, I had mentioned earlier that I had taken a pay cut to take this job. And I already was making significantly less despite several raises, which I was very grateful for. I was making less than I had been at my last job still. So I wasn't in a position where I could really take another pay cut at all. You know, we bought a house during the pandemic. And now I was permanently locked into these payments, and I couldn't really just move and leave. So also I you know, in the back of my head, like, I don't even like this job. Why would I pay cut to stay at a job I don't like. So given that, I decided to surrender my position. Essentially, I guess I resigned. I forcefully resigned. So I don't know how much this counts as part of the great resignation. But I'd like to think that given all the circumstances, hearing about people in the news and on clotheshorse, starting their own business doing their own thing, making themselves happy for once and especially those of us that have been dragged through the retail and fashion world, it is an insane business. And one my I'm not sure there aren't more books and movies that are actually about working in fashion, not working for fashion magazine. No offense, Devil Wears Prada, great movie, but there's so much drama that happens. And I was just kind of over it. I was also over that whole song, a dance you had to do when you interviewed at a place. Like I don't have to live and breathe your company to be an amazing employee and to be good at what I do. But I often be in those positions where they would ask you what you knew about the company and why you liked it. And sometimes you're just like, hey, man, it sounds like a good job. But unless you can drink the Kool Aid, you get written off, and I just wasn't ready to do that again. But here I was. I got one week pay. I still had a week of work, two weeks after I quote unquote, resigned, which were arduous. At best. It was very difficult to do that.

Very, very hard. And I got one week of pay. And then I decided to Take one week off for myself. I said, you know, I, I need a break I've been through so much, I need a break. So I took a week off. And in that time, I found a part time freelance job that was two days a week. The pay wasn't exceptional, but it wasn't terrible. And I said, Hey, it'll be something that's reoccurring and stable two days a week I could do that sounds pretty easy. So I took that. And I also started kind of reaching out to old clients that I'd worked with at this last job, as well as old coworkers. You know, everyone needs help. In the industry, no one ever has enough people on staff. So I just started reaching out to people that I knew. And I got passed around, I talked to a bunch of people that I had spoken with. And while it was kind of good to refresh my network, if you will. And that's when I just decided to throw the cards down and go for it and start consulting full time and freelancing. It was going to give me the opportunity to sometimes go in the office and sometimes work from home, to work with cool companies and cool brands that were doing things that I identified with I supported I enjoyed. At the last job, I had to work with anyone and everyone and a lot of assholes. And I just made it my personal policy that I didn't want to work with assholes anymore, because I didn't have to. So that was a great realization. It took some time to figure out pricing, I definitely lowball myself on a few of my first projects, because I just didn't understand what a going rate was. Tip though, if anyone has gone through agencies, agencies charge an enormous fee on top of your hourly rate. So that kind of gave me focus and you know, kind of clarity on what I could charge. If I was making $44 an hour through the agency, the agency was actually charging the company much more. So knowing that I could be like, Okay, I know, this sounds like a lot per hour, but hey, it's you're not paying an agency fee. Like, this is the fee you're paying me. And I just continued to reach out to people, if there were job listings that seemed interesting, or I knew people that were flexible, I had reached out to them, and I began to build up a client roster. So now I have a pretty full client roster, I kind of oscillate between five different projects at any given time. And I've even been courted for things that I've had turned down already, because I am too busy, which I'm just so blown away by and so incredibly thankful for. There's definitely a learning curve, I would definitely if you're going to start your own business or start doing work. You know, on your own freelancing, please look into paying taxes, how that whole thing works, I set up an LLC, and that will definitely help with taxes down the road. So there's a lot of things that you need to do to get your stuff in order. But it's not too daunting, you just have to take the time and do it. My advice for people who are thinking about this, or maybe in my position, were like, oh my god, it would be amazing. If I could be a part of this great resignation. Sometimes it's okay to wait for a catalyst, whether that's the pandemic, you have to move across the country. Or, you know, it's something like my crazy situation where you're basically told, Hey, like, you probably have to quit your job. But what's important is that you're just open to it and open to new experiences. Prepare as much as you can plan for how long you're going to try it out. You know, it's okay, if you want to try something new, and it doesn't work out. Just kind of give yourself parameters of how long you're going to wait for you to make X amount of money or how you're going to gauge success. You know, it doesn't have to be financial, whatever you want to define that as make sure you know what that is. So that that can keep you motivated and keep you checked in, you know, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. There are other things that you can do. So it won't be the end of the world ever. So just keep that in mind. Yeah, I think that's it. That's my story and stick into it. And I'll talk to you guys later. Bye.

Amanda
Wasn't that a great audio essay? Meredith, we have to do another episode about something fun as soon as possible. I'm sure there are many more mall brands we could break down, but it's always so fun. So get in touch. I know you're listening to this. One of my favorite things from Meredith's essay was the reality that we don't see a lot of movies about actually working in fashion, probably because it would be way too depressing. And it would stop all of us from wanting to buy so many clothes. Like I feel like the entire industry as a whole would get together to squash any film about how it actually works. Like it would feel like slander to them or libel. There'd be all sorts of lawsuits, right? Because the reality is, we would see that the industry actually isn't glamorous, you know, rather than runway shows and Vogue covers We'd see sad $15 Salads being eaten while hunched over a desk, updating spreadsheets, we would see grown women making one another cry during a meeting about tank tops. Yes, I witnessed this, there will be buyers and designers having stress induced diarrhea. Before heading off to yet another Monday meeting where everyone gets yelled at, and humiliated by the CEO. There'd be late nights at the office, where you realize that you didn't see the sun one time that day, were color printers. This is one that really every job I've had color printers covered with mountains and I mean mountains of abandoned printed pages, how does this happen? I don't know. Through the employees feeling as if their job has opened, overtaken their entire life, to the point where they have no ownership or control over any of their days, they belong to someone else. And so they must find some level of control, some sense of self ownership by starving themselves or getting too deep into astrology or drinking way too much on the weekends. And that's just the office workers. I'll also add that, you know, I've had a lot of really rough jobs, I would say more jobs than not in the fashion industry are horrible. Nasty Gal, which I've talked about in the past. And also I've talked about at length with Kim on The Department because she worked there as well. Nasty Gal was so next level, toxic, ridiculous chaos, it was just unlike any other place I've worked. And my friend Sherry and I, one of the ways we would deal with our stress is to just imagine a television show that was inspired by Nasty Gal. Yeah, that we would like, right? And we would figure out who would play whom and what the characters' names would be. And sometimes I still kind of want to see that show come to life. Because I think about some of the scenarios that really happened. And they're hilarious in retrospect, maybe not so much whether they're well, no, it's pretty hilarious there too. Anyway, that's just the corporate side of it. Right? The buyers, designers, the planners, all the other people working there, think about garment workers, retail workers, warehouse staff, could somebody please make movies about them, because I would love to see that too. But then again, the average movie goer probably just wants to see the razzle dazzle of photoshoots and genius designers because that allows us to maintain the illusion that fashion is fashion and not just fashion, right.

The fashion industry, like every other industry and job out there, is rarely glamorous, mostly stressful, and exploitive. And it benefits only a few people at the top picking industry, they all work the same way. Everyone is just desperate to be there. We chug down the company kool aid as if we've been wandering through the desert for days. Because it's required of us we don't have a choice. Want a job? Have another glass of company culture. And never tastes very good.

I'm excited about the prospect of moving into a new era where we, the workers, build the culture that we want, where companies are so desperate for us that they have no choice, but to let us dictate what our job will be. And you know what, if you had said, told me about this great resignation and all this stuff in 2020, I would not have believed you. In fact, I fretted all the time that we were all going to find ourselves in even worse work situations in 2021. Because the power shifted even more extremely to the side of the employers with so many of us losing our jobs or feeling as if our jobs were, you know, uncertain, right? Here we are. We have something called The Great Resignation, 33 million people leaving their jobs since the spring that's just here in the United States. And suddenly, we have the power because the employers need us. They always needed us. They just were afraid to let us know. Now we know. And if that's not a really great example of collective action being successful, I don't know what it is. We can make changes and how work is for us in the same ways that we can change the criminal justice system, economic inequality, fast fashion, all these things happen. When we come out en masse to make that change happen, and, you know, here it's happening with work, and I can't wait to see it go even further. We can get there if we support one another's decisions, and we encourage those around us, and we speak up for ourselves. We're all better than our jobs have ever allowed us to believe.

Thanks again to Meredith for a great start to this round of audio essays. If you listened to hers, which was amazing, like Meredith, maybe you should just be going on a speaking tour, telling people about how they could go work for themselves. If you felt inspired by that, and you want to share your own experience. It's not too late to send your audio essay recorded on your phone or computer to me via email at [e-mail].

I know I say this a lot but I'm just gonna say it again. One of the best things about working on Clotheshorse and really what keeps me going when I'm tired or when people are being mean to me on Instagram, which happens a lot. So weird, like I'm an adult, and I get upset about Instagram. Anyway, that's a whole other podcast about Instagram. I don't know, no one wants to listen to that. But seriously, going through all of this, through all the hard work, what keeps me motivated is all of the RAD friends I've made over the past year and a half, and Rita of Panty Witch is one of them. I feel like I've known her for years. But we've never met IRL. And I'm, I'm so excited that she took the time to record with me, and I'm sure you're excited to get to know her better, right? So let's, let's jump right in.

Amanda
Rita, why don't you introduce yourself to everyone?

Rita
Hi, I'm Rita and I am Panty Witch. I'm a sewist out of the Pacific Northwest. And I really like using thrifted and upcycled materials to create less waste.

Amanda
Wow, that was so concise. Well, Rita, I'm really excited to have you on the show today. You know, we have been internet friends, I feel like for 100 years now, right on, I'm glad we're finally doing this. I have so many questions for you. So I guess my first question is, did you think when you were a child that you would grow up and make panties?

Rita
I have always been a really creative person. And one of my favorite games to play as a kid was making up fake companies. And that was really fun. I got into this whole phase of like saving every paper recycling piece for my house, and make these envelopes and fill them with like things that I would use for potions, kind of like a witch's like apothecary, you know? And so, you know, that was really fun. I dreamed about having like, clothing lines, but just never thought, like, always thought that this was just kind of like a play thing. Like, Oh, that'd be really fun. But like, nope, adults are boring.

Amanda
Well, so you have a business now, which is Panty Witch. What's in between, like, what finally led to you doing it?.

Rita
Um, it all feels really random. But also like it was really always meant to be now that I kind of my 20/20, you know, crystal clear look back. I graduated from high school, yay, me. And then I started working at this clothing company in Seattle that my mom had previously worked at when she was. When she had my older brother, she got a nursing bra from them, and then ended up working there. The woman also had kids and like, gave her free childcare. While she worked there, she designed a lot of patterns for them. So these were really good kind of, you know, family friends. And I remember going in there growing up and like using the sergers to make certain things. Not super often, but just every once in a while. And so when I turned 18, she hired me. And it was a really cool experience. I've you know, I knew how to sew and do stuff before but this was really my gateway into like, I don't know, like just doing it like production sewing, which went a little too far. Because when you're sewing the same thing, like 100 of them every day, it's it gets exhausting. But yeah, yeah, I learned how to like, do more things. And when, like, early 2020, I decided I wanted to, well, actually, I'll go back a little bit. So when I was working for that company, I was sewing, and businesses kind of dipped, you know, like they had a high point. And then kind of like sales weren't not doing horribly, but just not like there was no growth. And this is, you know, like an ethical organic, made to order underwear, and clothing company. And so my boss was always like, kind of being like, oh, I need ideas. And so I was like, oh, we should like make an Instagram like social media, like let's reach out to a younger clientele. Let's like get some different colors, because all your colors are the same colors from the 80s genuinely. And so I was like, let's, you know, do some things. Like, let's make period underwear, like, you know, and so I set up an Instagram, I like bought a camera like me and my cousin would go and like, do really fun photoshoots all just because I wanted to do it and I just you know, it just seemed fun. And it just wasn't it wasn't received, like how I thought it was gonna be received, which is fair, she's very ambivalent to change. And so that kind of like was like, Oh, well, you know, I'm not going to put this energy and if it's not being received, it's a bummer. But like she told me that there was no money to be made in Instagram, which wow, I just... there's no money Amanda. I don't know, I just paid my mortgage with my Panty Witch money but like, I guess there's...I'm trying not to be salty. I really love this woman. I really love the opportunity. But you know, we all have our own pitfalls. Me as well.

Amanda
I had a boss, I'm just gonna say about 10 years ago who said, no one's gonna buy clothes online.

Rita
So in the 90s this gal who now runs this really big company called Egg Press in Portland who worked with my mom. Yeah. Do you know her name is Tess. I don't know. Anyway, she runs like you've probably seen her cards before. Really cool.

Amanda
Totally. I bought them as a buyer and I bought them as a customer.

Rita
That woman used to like work there. And when my mom worked there and do kind of designing stuff and she's like you to the owner, she's like, You got to have a website. And the boss was like, the World Wide Web is never gonna take off like now. Now they do all their stuff. And you can call them and it's great. And I call them when I order my bras and stuff and like, but it's just like ambivalent to change, you know, and yeah, that's a really hard thing. I'm sure you know, in this industry.

Amanda
Oh, yeah, for sure. Like I said, I had a boss who said, people will never buy clothing online.

Rita
They will never buy clothing at the mall anymore, Amanda? Yeah.

Amanda
Or people who are you know, another boss was like, did you know that people buy clothing on their phone? Like, yeah, I just did it five minutes ago,

Rita
When I used to sell on Instagram, people would be like, so where do you sell? Do you have a website? And I'm like, no, just like, and on Instagram. They're like, does it like? I'm like, no, like, you DM me, like we, you know, like, I used to do the whole Venmo thing, which is a great system if you know, but I outgrew it, but people were like, what, like, you make money on? Like, what? You know, it's like, oh, yeah,

Amanda
I've heard so many people say no one's gonna make money off of selling clothing on eBay, or selling anything on Instagram. And I'm like, I would beg to differ. I know so many people now.

Rita
It's a digital magazine. Like, that's all. That's all it is.

Amanda
I like that. I think that is a great way to describe it, especially the way I see people interacting with content on there. I mean, I'm like, over all the video content. I want to go back to being a magazine, too. It's like all I see. And it's just not compelling. To me.

Rita
It's not good for my brain. It's like the attention span has gotten in the song that gets stuck in my head. It's I mean, it's rough.

Amanda
I definitely I feel like I'm like old man yelling at a cloud with that sentiment. So it makes me feel better that you feel taht way.

Rita
Everyone's like, you're gonna have to get a TikTok I have a virtual assistant. She's like, make a TikTok I'm like, over my dead body. Like, I'll be doing that.

Amanda
I'm saying now I have a Tik Tok account. It's not even as Clotheshorse. And it's only so that I can watch this account called Sylvanian Drama, which I highly recommend. It's about Sylvanian families.

Rita
That sounds really fun. I watch a lot of TikTok content on Instagram. And that's, you know, but I'm just like, I don't need to open that Pandora's Box. Like we're, we're just not.

Amanda
Yeah, apparently. If you watch it too long, a weird video comes on that tells you to take a break. Genius. I find that frightening. I mean, it's like, like, the fact that like, people are like, Oh, that one. I see that one all the time. I'm like, Oh my God.

Rita
It's like the Netflix thing. It's like, are you still here? And it's like, of course, I'm still here. You know it to

Amanda
Oh, stop shaming me. Yes, totally. Yeah, no. So I think like going back to this idea of, I don't know, sort of being like resistant to change or trying new things. I mean, I think I'm sure there are plenty people who are gonna hear that who are like, I, I've lived that too. Like, it's really frustrating when you're working for someone else. And they don't have that vision about change. But I think it can also motivate you to be like, Hey, I think I'm gonna do something on my own now, right?

Rita
Yeah, well, she wanted to retire. And her kids are probably in their 30s. And she kind of like, we kind of flirted with, like, maybe me and my mom wanted to buy the business, because it was like, kind of at like, an affordable price. But then we really did some reflecting. And thank goodness, we didn't because this was like, end of 2019 You know, before it all? Oh, yeah. And we were just kind of flirting with it, you know? Yeah, it was like a price that we could theoretically like, take a loan out and, you know, do that whole thing. But I just felt really ambivalent to have employees. Because that like, felt like it was going to be an anxiety of just like, I have these people I'm responsible for, and I felt like we weren't getting and I was paid like $16 An hour ending like this is like really high wages for garment workers, you know, and I'm the lowest paid person, they're out of like six people, but like, it still doesn't feel like enough. And now that I think of like the toll I've put on my body, I mean, my body I had already told it growing up knitting all the time, sewing all the time, doing all this stuff, having horrible posture, but like selling for eight to 12 hours a day, or even four hours a day just consistently doing the same thing over and over and over again is like it's like miles on the car, you know? Yeah, and yeah, so anyway, I just didn't I didn't want to be responsible for that. That's someone else from to work there ended up like running it and that's super cool and awesome because I think it is a really cool business and like, even though it's not perfect, like it's so much better than the majority of fashion companies or clothing companies out there. So it's it's really easy to get nitpicky when I think you get up to like certain things, but then you have to, like, reflect and be like, well, it's better than buying things from Target or shin or, you know, so yeah.

Amanda
So okay, so you started your own business. And I know that you're doing that full time. I guess my first question for you about that is, you know, so many people, myself included, I have been stuck in this rut for years where, like, I really wanted to go start my own business and do my own thing. But I was just so fearful. I could never take the plunge. And I have a lot of other friends who are in the same boat. What's your advice for them?

Rita
Um, go through a global pandemic, and just fall into it. And kind of feels like that happened. So like rewind two years, I bought my for I like drove down to Portland bought my first serger, because I finally found the exact one I had at work and was like, I want this exact thing. So I go and get that. And then with my other stimulus money, I ended up buying this like brand new single stitch machine. And so I have those. I'm living in Seattle, you know, doing my sewing job. And then this pandemic hits, I was also working at a secondhand thrift store, shout out to Seattle Recreative. And she, God bless her, she got a small business loan and paid us for like two months or normal hours, and we didn't even have to come into work. She's like, super amazing. And I had a, it was actually worked out. Because at my job, we started making masks at the bra panty job. And so I had more, I actually had to be like, I physically can't work as much as you want me to work. You know. And then, you know, I was living with my parents, we all my family really likes kind of like communal living a little bit like, I don't live with them anymore. But they live really close with my two brothers and their families. Like all in one household, four COVID tests, yay. But you know, so we were all really close. And I couldn't afford to live in Seattle, nor did I really want to when they decided they wanted to move, my mom grew up here. So we like we're relocating back to her, her homeland, kind of not really, but so I decided to move and I was like, Well, I can't really just go get another sewing job out there. Nor do I want to I have this industrial machinery, I had just played around with making upcycle panties. Because I had all these scraps that my boss would throw away from work, and I'd like hoard them at my sewing station. And I started selling them to give money to BLM movements. In June, I was just like, this is like, I've never donated this much money before, it's really cool that I can just turn this like trash into money that I can donate, because I don't know what else I can do right now in this crazy time. And so I had been doing that. And I was like, wow, I made you know, like $600, but I donated but I was like, you know, will people still be interested if I'm not donating all the money. And turns out that they are that's really cool. And so when we've moved, I was like, I'm just gonna like, like, just fall off this cliff, pretty much like landslide off of it. And if in six months, it's not working, I haven't made any money. I also am like a really frugal person and had savings. And so I did it. And like, here we are. And I also like was able to buy a house in the middle of that. And so, yeah, like it, honestly, like super privileged. It was all with my own money, but still, like, I have privilege and how I was able to, like, get that money and have a job and not have to like spend it or go into debt. And so but yeah, so it's, I don't want to say the pandemic has been great, because there's like, it's a really hard time to be alive. And there's been a lot of like, loss and mourning of like a different life, but at the same time, like, I don't know what I would be doing if this hadn't have happened. And so there's kind of these two sides to this whole thing.

Amanda
I mean, I I totally can agree with that. The past few years have been really, really hard for everyone. But there is I guess I think I'm just always really compelled to, like really examine my life and find the good things. I think it's really important to help keep you going. I just feel like I realized what was important to me. I realized what I wanted to do. I realized who I am. I feel like I kind of came into my self. Which is not to say that I also wasn't like having crippling anxiety, yes, for at least two years now crying because my unemployment wasn't coming, wondering what was going to happen next. I mean, like, I doing home surgery on myself.

Rita
I think as a collective, like, we were faced with death, and that can like really show you some things about yourself.

Amanda
Yeah totally. I was talking to someone else the other day. And I was saying, like, you know, not really, I think our grandparents are too young to be depression era. But like more like our great grandparents, you know, they, they were fundamentally changed in their relationship with their belongings, how what they do with their money, how they saved food, all of these things, you know, like saving aluminum foil, like that kind of thing.

Rita
Growing up, I had this like deep fantasy and almost like mourning that I did not grew up during the Great Depression. I know that that sounds crazy. But I was just like, that was my time. And like, I just loved the like, thrift. I've always been like, I've been mending my close since I was in elementary school, just because I loved it. And like people would make fun of me. I grew up in kind of an upper class area of Seattle. I was middle class, but you know, I didn't realize it growing up. But now I'm like, Oh, I can see why they were like, Why are you mending your socks and mending your jeans? But I was just like, why wouldn't I? You know? Right, right. And I was like, I, I want like, I want that. I want to make dresses out of flour sacks. I know it sounds crazy. But I was so and now I'm kind of like, it's funny. Because when this happened, I was like, maybe this is like that thing that I felt like I needed to expect not needed. But like, was meant to experience in this life. This probably sounding really crazy. But you know, like, yeah, it hasn't been a fun time. But it's been a very like it like it feels like I've finally kind of like come into myself in a way that feels like so authentic.

Amanda
Absolutely. That's how I feel, too. I mean, I don't know if it's because, because sometimes it takes a really hard, weird time to help us realize these things about ourselves. Or because we had plenty of time at home to do some reflection and try new things.

Rita
I yeah, I think it's a mix of both things. I think when you're worried about like, how long your life is going to be or what's gonna happen, you know, it's, you really think about these things of like, who and what is important to you and what you want to spend your time doing.

Amanda
Mm hmm. Yeah, totally. And I think I think that is at the core of like, The Great Resignation, so many people are leaving their jobs. Like, why? I mean, I think about it, man, I got laid off from my last job, you know, as you know, at the beginning. That job was terrible.

Rita
You're like, why didn't you walk out?

Amanda
I know, every morning Dustin would drive me to work. And I would like be crying about how do you get I was like, I'm trapped here. Because if I do this job, we don't have money to live. And yeah, that I think it was cool that they laid me off. And it's certainly, like a messed up our blessing in disguise. Not that I would go back to them and be like, thank you.

Rita
Yeah, but you're like, glad that glad that didn't go on any longer. Because it was ridiculous.

Amanda
It was ridiculous. And why would I waste my time on that? So yeah, I mean, like I said, past few years, so much loss. So yeah. I mean, the damage to our mental health is it's unknown.

Rita
Our physical health to like stress is crazy.

Amanda
Yeah. Yeah. I can't remember the last time I wasn't just filled with anxiety about what was

Rita
Oh, no. And that's partially why I'm like, am I getting sick? Or am I just like, have pushed it too far. And like, this is just almost like an anxiety sickness. Because genuinely, as a kid, actually, my mom, the way I learned how to knit is when I went back to public school in second grade, I would always like I'd feel sick at school. And so I'd like go to the nurse and be like, I need to go home like I'm sick. I don't feel good. And after sending me home a couple times, because I'm, you know, I get not that I get what I want, but I'm pretty persistent. My mom would like call the nurse and she's like, You can't send her home, like, just let her lay down for a little bit and send her back. And so this happens a couple times, and the nurse would knit in school. And so one time I asked her about it, and like next time I went, she had some knitting needles and yarn for me, bless her. And I knit my way through my, you know, 12 years of public education, like, and teachers would always be like, Oh, Rita, like no knitting, and I'm like, oh, yeah, we're gonna be knitting during class because watch this. Yeah.

Amanda
I'm sure all the teachers were in the break room like, that Rita. What kind of kid is knitting at school?

Rita
Yeah. I mean, I got all the like, I made a knitting club. It became a thing like the boys knit the girls meant everyone commit. And yeah, it was really fun. But yeah, there would be times like the beginning of the year I'd remember people were like, oh, only knitting, knitting, like read storytime. And I'm like, Um, no, and I'm the kind of person that like I did really well in school. And which is funny to me now, because I hate school, but I would just get stuff done early and spend all this time waiting. And I just remember stuff better. If I'm like doing I gotta be doing something. You know.

Amanda
I'm the same. Yeah, it's really hard. I actually hate the Zoom era of meetings because reasons, but one is that I feel like, I must be staring at the screen at all times, or the person's gonna think I'm not engaged, but I really need me doing something else.

Rita
I won't be like camera off cooking my dinner. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Amanda
Exactly. Um, okay. Well, so you, you know, the pandemic happened. You have this opportunity to start your own business. Why panties?

Rita
The company I worked for made a lot of different stuff, but mostly bras and underwear. And I just learned how to do it. I had, I had made my own underwear for myself out of like old T shirts. My partner was getting rid of a lot of shirts. And I'm the kind of person who's like Goodwill donation as the last resort, like you find a use for that or fine. So you know what I mean? It's been nice finding Clotheshorse because I'm like, Oh, my God, there are others. They're learning like, Yes. Welcome, come like. And so he had all these he used to work for the labor union. We won't talk about that. But yeah, so we had all these shirts that he was like, Let's burn these. And I was like, now you need new underwear. Let me just like, whip you up some like boxer briefs. And that was awesome. And really fun. And so I just kind of had this idea of like, oh, upcycled underwear, because it's just, you know, sometimes, like some upcycle things. People are getting really good at it. But sometimes I think when you think of upcycle thing, it's like, oh, cool, like, interesting. You know? Yeah, like, it's just not like this. I don't want to say not pleasing. I want to be nice. Not my style. I I'm I don't know. I'm just very into like how things look. And yeah, artistic. And so I wanted to find a way to do it, where it felt intentional. And didn't feel like oh, like it. She went to Goodwill and kind of a bunch of shirts. And yeah, that's, that's cool. Love it. I don't know, I'm being mean. But I just, I just wanted to do it in like an aesthetically pleasing way someone had sent me a box of scraps. And this is like before Penny, which was a thing I didn't I just played around with them and made myself a really cool pair to play around on my new surgery at home. And I was like, Oh, this is cool, posted a picture on Instagram. And like, I was just a personal Instagram. So people just start sharing it. I'm like, this is like, Hmm, interesting. And then I had a friend who jokingly called me Panty Witch, like a really good internet friend. I have never been able to find a company. You know, finding company names is like, hard. You don't want it to be forced. But it has to be authentic. And you don't want it to be like, you want it to be memorable. But not like so generic that it's like, yeah, every you know, like, it's got to be good. And that was just like, Oh, that is funny. And like cheeky and just, I don't know, I'm an Aquarius. So different and fun. So, yeah, that just Yeah, I was like I can I can do this like this is. Yeah, I don't know. It just it just the panties found me.

Amanda
It sounds like they did! I love this whole story. I have talked about this in the podcast in the past, but, you know, in like, 2020 a record number of people filed to start their own small business. 2021 even more,

Rita
Keep em coming baby. 2022!

Amanda
Right. I and this is all like it is 100% a direct result of the pandemic, you know, and I've read Yeah, articles about this, like some people. You know, they're like, life's too short. My job is stupid.

Rita
Well, and just like, fuck big companies who don't care about like shit, like, everything I do. I don't do because I'm like, oh, people will like it. If I use scraps. I'm like, I'm literally not going to use scraps because you know how much garbage there is. And just like, these are going to get thrown away and I just, I have all this ego anxiety. I'm like, let's put it into something. And then H&M is out here being like, oh, Guys, um, yeah, we really see that you care about green stuff. And we're doing this one thing and yeah, when it's like, oh, you care about that. So why don't you like change your whole like system and also just like not be a company anymore because you've done enough damage.

Amanda
Okay, so I can I tell you a funny story about H&M?

Rita
Yes, please.

Amanda
I don't use Twitter very often because I really just don't need it. Yeah, just go there. I mean, there are some people like Aja Barber, I follow her on there. And now all of her tweets are fire.

Rita
It's angry people. I would just say in general.

Amanda
Yeah, most of the time, it's just angry people. And I just like don't need it in my life. But like, I follow like five people or something. And someone I don't know, sometimes it's just sends me push notifications of a tweet that they think I might like, Oh, no. Someone tweeted, I don't know who it was. But it was a screenshot of LinkedIn. Yeah, we don't talk enough about LinkedIn enough around here clearly. Um, I don't really think of that being where the fire content is going to be. But H&M just had some, like, very generic corporate post about some, like, so called, like, a miracle, like, green sweater collection they were working on..

Rita
Sure, H&M. Yeah, normal shit.

Amanda
Right. Okay, so someone who's an actual legit world renowned expert in sustainability, particularly when it comes to yarn comments a paragraph about how this isn't a sustainable item. Everything they said was right. It gets it gets a reply, that comment. It's from H&M's social media manager, and everybody who saw this knew this, because it's like their little thumbnail of their picture their name, and then you know, their titles. Social Media Manager. Their only response was the emoji that's yawning.

Rita
Anger. Anger is my emoji right now.

Amanda
I saw it, and I immediately had to run and show it to Dustin who, you know, laughed a little bit, but I was like, you don't get why this is so ridiculous.

Rita
It's like, it's like the whole kind of Trump administration. When you're like, I know, this is real. And it's almost funny, but the fact that it is real and it's happening is like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anger.

Amanda
And yeah, so I think a lot of us, like during the pandemic, are like, I'm fucking sick of it, we're gonna take the bull by the horns, we're going to build a better world. Our lives are short, we're missing out on things we've dreamed of doing, which is going to go for it. And then other people are like, hey, my shitty job laid me off at it during the pandemic, not because they were going to go out of business, but because they wanted to maintain profit margins, you know, fuck that. I'm starting my own business where things are. And all of these reasons, are amazing reasons to start a small business. So I'm really excited to see how this all plays out. And I think so many stories that I hear from people who have started a business during the pandemic, I'll start with, I was messing around with this thing. I posted it on Instagram. People loved it. And now I have a business. Yeah. There's money and Instagram.

Rita
Crazy. Yeah. Yeah it's fascinating. But it's really, it's really exciting to kind of be in this, like, new new thing. I don't tell a lot of people here like what I do. And even people are like, no, like, my great aunt knows what I do. And she's like, kind of confused. You know, I'm not like, oh, I, you know, like, do I do this or like the I was getting coffee like a couple weeks ago, and I go to the same coffee place that's really close to my house. And I'm going through and right now they like know my order. And so they were like chatting and they're like, Oh, you like headed to work? And I'm like, Oh, I work from home. And they're like, Oh, that's cool. Like, what do you do? We go I'm like, a sower, you know, and they're like, Oh, that's cool. And they're like, What are you so and I'm like, oh, you know, and she's probably my age. I'm almost 26 So you know, like, young. And I'm like, Oh, I make like underwear out of upcycled materials. I don't know, like, I don't really know what to say to make it sound like not weird. And she's like, Oh, that's that's really cool. She's like you like, you know, get stuff and like, turn it into cool stuff. And I'm like, yeah, and then as I'm leaving, she's like, Okay, well, like, have fun, like good luck with your little business. And I was like, Yeah, thanks.

Amanda
It's so awkward.

Rita
I don't know. And then I'm like, like, I don't know. I'm like, oh, like it doesn't feel like a little business anymore. Not but I feel like I'm like a huge thing, which I never, I never want. Like if I were ever like to be done doing this. We're done, like Panty Witch is done. We're burying her. She's dead. This is never like moving past me. Maybe someone will like help me and work. With me, I don't see that but like, who knows, but I don't want it to be a thing. Like people always like hire people, like you can like make, you know, really like you could make this like a company, you could like open a store and I'm like, I don't want that. Like, I'm not interested in that. Like, that's okay. Yeah. I just I, because I think that when too many people get involved, and you lose touch with like, the person that's doing the thing that actually matters, which is the making of the thing. Evil, like I'm not always but like oftentimes, not everyone's compensated, you know, like, it's, it's just, it's too, it's too complicated. I just, like, never want it to get to that point. And it also feels so personal to me that I'm like, That's why when I had my little copycat thing I not that I didn't react. Okay, but I was like, Man, I wish I would have just not done anything and just moved on. But it felt very, like personal like, I don't know, it felt like someone had like, gone through my car, and like, you know, or like, ransack my house, like, kind of like a violation, which I need to get over. But I think that's why I had like, such a reaction at first, and I wasn't able to just like, be calm and concise about it, you know?

Amanda
Right. So what happened was like, someone just completely copied your account, right?

Rita
So I don't know. I am on Instagram too much. I say I'm working. But you know, notice feeling well, yeah. So I'm like browsing Instagram one day, and I see, you know, sometimes they suggest accounts for you as you're like scrolling. And I see this one called Panty Fairy. And so I look at it. nad also not like just like, like, not just the name, but they like I have a dot between the two, which, again, none of these things in on their own are like horrible offenses, but all together it like anyway. So she has a logo that's like white, black, white background. And then this kind of like drawing of almost kind of like a fairy ish kind of thing. But not exactly the same as mine, but like, similar enough at a glance. And it's not like everyone who follows me is like, that's redist logo. And I know this, like they follow someone that's panty something. And it kind of like, anyway, so I look at this, almost the exact same bio, she did that thing where she changes the fonts, which is cool. I don't know how to do that. But like, cool. Already there. Yeah, I don't know how to do that. But yeah, it almost a little bit annoys me because I'm like, It's not my aesthetic. But I was like, whatever you know. And like, she doesn't have any pictures of panties she's made. But she's like, building up to it. She's like, I want to start this brand. I want to make sustainable underwear. And I'm going to have a sliding scale of 70 to 120 Wait, that's weird that I know those numbers. And so she's like, building up and she like, then she starts she posts a picture of ones that she's made, which, again, not to be shady, it's obvious, she's not sewn underwear before. Like, you know, it's like, it's amazing when people so but just like I've sown for like my entire life, and there's just, you can you know, you know, by buying clothes, you can tell like different qualities of things. And yeah, when someone knows how to use their machinery, or anyway, again, not to be shady, really cool that she was trying to do something new. Um, but she you know, and I'm like, I know that that fabric like I know where to buy that because I get ads for it. And like when I saw pictures of it, I'm like, I know whether you're not using upcycled materials, which feels greenwashing. It's just like all these little like red flags. And so she posts this giveaway where she makes these panties that are I call them the panel panties. It's just when I have that kind of angle pant panel in the middle, either someone prints on it, or it's a branch or what, you know. Yeah. And I've never seen someone do it at that exact angle. Again, not that that on its own, like she can you know, there's no laws about copying and fashion. Really, it's really true. Yes, yeah. But she has seemed sliding scale very similar panties using similar wording when it's obvious that that's not like she's using the wording for the wording and not because it's the truth, I want to say, and so I see it and I'm like, whatever doesn't, it's early in the morning, you know, and I'm just kind of like not in that phase of like critical thinking, I'm just scrolling on Instagram, maybe. And then people start sending me that account, say, hey, this person followed me and I saw it and I thought it was you realize it's not like just, you know, here you go. Like, you know, thank you. Um, and so I, you know, take account and I reach out to some other maker friends of mine on the internet, and I'm like, Hey, like other people that have had similar situations happen. I'm like, hey, you know, Can I can I have a moment of your time please? And everyone was like, Whoa, that's cuz I was like, I'm going crazy. I am not so spit like, who am I do not own panties. Like it's, you know, I'm like having this whole thing in my head where I'm like, I'm crazy. I'm getting Too self obsessed. Like I really think this person, you know. And so as I'm waiting for responses I, you know, I'm just looking at her account I see she's following a lot of people I go to those things. I'm like, Wait, that's weird. That's a friend from Canada that I've known for 20 or, you know, whatever years this is a friend from high school. This is so Oh, oh, every single one of her 2000 followers is following me. I did not go through every 2000 but I crazily went through like every 10 and every single one of them follow me, Dani from Picnicwear messages me, because we pals now and she's like, this person has unfollowed me unfollowed me like several times in the last couple days. Like I thought it was weird. But you know, like, when you have a lot of Instagram interaction, it's really easy for like to miss these kind of things. So I send this person a message. And I'm like, Hey, like, Hello. Our accounts are very similar. Like, what do you think about this? And they respond back six hours later, probably a grueling six hours for them. And they're like, oh, my gosh, so funny. Just looked you up. Hadn't seen your account before. Cool to know, there's people just like me out there. And at this point, I raged. Yeah. I know that they've gone through and followed all my followers, because I did that for my company. And Instagram stops you at a certain point because they think you're a bot. And they like limit your action. If you're just like, go in, like trigger happy, you know, been there done that high. But yeah, so I was like, so I know that you followed my followers. And not that, like, again, I did that when I worked for a company, you go and find similar companies that are you know, when you follow a bunch of people, this is Social Media Marketing, you know, but it felt like if she had been like, I, you know, I saw your account and thought it was really cool and wanted to do something similar. Okay, we might have a little conversation about like, inspiration versus copying, whatever, she just blocks me, she blocks me. So I'm a little annoyed now. So I posted on my close friends list, which I was like, shouldn't have done but was just like, Hey, have a situation like don't know quite what to do. Yeah, so you know, and so people leave some comments, very kind comments, Danny left one, like, I saw no bullying. I did not see DMS that went to her. But she DELETES THEM ALL. And this is day one, too. So she deletes like these, like 20 comments. And like she has this giveaway open. So she's like, revving up on the giveaway. I had messaged her on one of my other accounts, because you know, we'll, we have accounts. We have, yeah, we have some things. And she blocks it all. And I'm just like, like, one kind of what was this lady thinking in the beginning, but also like, unit like, you've been called out, you know? And like, what are you going to do next? Like, what? What is the steps forward? And so I got really annoyed when she hit like, I woke up the next morning and all these beautiful comments being like, hey, it looks like you're, you know, it looks like you're not doing your own style. Here. It looks like you're using someone else's work. Like, it's really like, this is a great community, but we like need people to have like their own authentic selves. You know, right. Like, there's space for everyone, but like, not space for copycats, absolutely DELETES THEM ALL blocks them all. So now I had I woke up the next morning, I'm like, nah, this is war, but like, I'm annoyed. So I post on my regular Instagram, and then like, on my stories to everyone, not just like my close friend make her friends. And I'm like, Hey, I'm not associated with this account, this account has blocked me. And there's kind of like too many similarities for comfort. And I also have realized that they like have definitely seen my page. And I don't want to say this to be like they see my page like it, but it just, it's obvious that they saw one of my posts, and I wasn't even able to see like when they had set up the account what changed, like, they set up the account in February. And it was some they hadn't used it, but it was like some lifestyle thing. And then November 21, they change it to a fitness like candle. And then November 21. Again, they changed it to Panty Fairy. And then again, they changed the spelling of Panty Fairy to be like mine, like what the dot and so this is so weird. And so they're like, oh my gosh, this chick is making a bunch of money. They weren't paying reparations. The only part of my bio they didn't copy, unfortunately, was the good part of paying reparations. And you know, and so it's like, I'm not mad that they use that sliding scale because again, I calculated that, you know, with my like, they can totally get paid what I get paid. That's awesome. But it just it was too it was too many copying things. And then yeah, I don't know. And again, I wish I wouldn't have like called anyone out. I wish I would have just taken my inspiration from it and I blocked her and moved on. And if anyone asks, I'm like, I'm not associated with that Instagram. You know, that's, that's her own thing.

Amanda
So is this person still around?

Rita
So okay, kind of creepy. So after the day, you know she she has to block hundreds of people this day Amanda so many comments deleted, it is a stressful day for her. And someone's finds her personal Facebook page her personal Instagram, which I had found before, in kind of the first I hadn't said that I had found her first her personal Instagram and realized she was following me. And this is when I was like, and then I was like, Wait, she followed my followers, but I didn't screenshot anything and I forgot her Instagram her like, personal account, you know? And so they find they find her partner's Instagram which I'm like, creepy. But also I go to my, to my troll account, not a troll account, my ethical, my like ethical trolling account that I messaged her and I'm like, Hey, this is Panty Witch like, I would love to have a conversation artists, artists, I'm sure it's been a really stressful day for you. I get a message back. And the message they're all enraging because she's like, it's kind of like one step forward to step back like, Yeah, I had seen her page and she said, I never been bullied before, but today was horrible. First bullying experience, which I was like, girl. Yeah, yeah, I have been bullied a bit in my life. So I was like, wow, okay, well, welcome to The Club. This wasn't really bullying, but okay, like, sure you can join us. But she was like, I've been sewing underwear for a long time, which, I don't care if it's true, but I don't think it is based on based on the quality. But she's like, I just saw your Instagram and was inspired. I'm inspired by so many artists on here. I never meant to like personally hurt you. Not that I was necessarily personally hurt. But my feelings were.

Amanda
I mean, this is a little egregious as an outside party here, you know.

Rita
And yeah, she says, she sends me this message back. And I'm like, and, you know, I like, I really like, like, she is a person, we've all made mistakes in our life. I've made many mistakes in my life. And, but I, you know, I messaged her, and I'm like, you know, thank you for your apology, I wanted to use quote, unquote, but like, whatever, thank you for what you thought was an apology, I would appreciate it if you would change your logo and your handle, you know, like, I don't know, I can't force anyone to do anything. But I'm like, at this point, I feel like this is like the bare minimum that you can do. Also, I don't know how she thought she was going to move on from this app, because she had like a giveaway. And she had like, 10 Giveaway entries. And at one point, like 40 other comments that were just people being like, Yo, not cool. Like, don't copy, you know, that she eventually deleted all. And so she's like, so I'm like, I would appreciate it if you change your handle and your you know, your little picture logo thing. And she's like, I'll consider it like, Okay, well, I will consider, you will consider not talking about this on my own personal lens on my person on this Instagram, which I know sounds petty, but I'm just like, Are you kidding me? And so she's like, will you make the bullying stop? And I was just like, on relaying the fact that she thinks this is bullying. Not I'm sure it wasn't fun. And I'm really sorry to her if there was anything that was like super mean, like, everything I saw was, I feel like, okay, in the context of what was happening, you know, like, caring people just being like, Hey, don't copy, find your own artistic voice. Like, there was some really like sweet comments. Actually. I have some of them that people sent to me because I was blocked. And I was like, Oh, this is now I have a little folder of things to read back of like, times people are being like, this is a really cool person. I don't know. Anyway, I won't go into that. But um, she's like, well, you make the bullying stop. And I was like, well, like, Yes, I will. Like no one will comment on your thing. I will tell people to stop commenting if you just change it. And so finally she changes it. And yeah, it just, I I wish I would have just seen her message. Now when she was lying been like cool. I'm going to do Panty Fairy better than you could have ever fucking dreamed. And just like moved on, you know, because she would have seen my posts because lately I've been like Panty Fairy actually, it worked out great. It's like, almost not a blessing. But like, I wanted to do a really fun colorful collection and it just feels like it was like meant to be honestly with the fabrics I had. I knew I won't nerd out about it too much. But um yeah, it I wish and you know, she would have seen my posts and I know that one of like, I feel bad that she feels bullied because I like care about people's feelings.

Amanda
Right? I feel sympathetic toward her.

Rita
She was like I'm home during the pandemic I you know, needed make income and like, I would love another if she would have come to me and been like, Yo, what I see you're doing is cool. I would like to do something similar have any pointers? I'm really friendly. Amanda like, oh my gosh, like, I've like I'd really would have loved a new friend but like Didn't feel did not feel good. Um, but yeah, seeing those if she would have seen me doing a pant like I had people like design these stickers that I was like all now around panty fairy like we are going balls to the walls, she would have seen that and that would have been like, the best worst feeling. Do you know what I mean? Like, I've never had to be the bad guy. Like she would have known that I knew what she was doing and that I didn't feel like it was okay. And like, I don't know, you know, I think I honestly think that may have maybe would have like, pushed her in, like a more authentic direction. Because she couldn't make upcycle panties. Like come join my club. You know, I cannot make pianos for everyone. I don't want to when I can't make things that people's price points. Or, you know, people want me to make boxers. I don't make them. I only make them for my husband, because I love him so much. I do not want to make them for strangers because you make a pair and you tell me why don't want to make them anyway. No ideas. Yeah, yeah, like, there's just I there, I will go into it. But it's just I don't I don't like the process of making them. And I will tell people like others other great companies that either, you know, are small makers and make that or they're also upcycles. Like, I have a list I will give you sometimes people get really mad at me because they're like, I wanted it from you and you don't want to like, like people feel like I'm being like anti trans because I won't make boxers. And like, so people feel like they can't wear my artwork, but they want to support me, which I'm like, so sorry, people. I just do not want to make boxers. Yeah, like I have the pattern for my husband. I do not want to grade it for everyone. I love you guys so much. I, I don't like I'm just I'm not gonna do it. If you want to go make upcycle boxers and do that. Awesome. Cool. I will be a supporter of you. Like, I'll shout you out. Like I will tell people about you when they want things. But like, I don't want to do it.

Amanda
I totally get that. I mean, it's your prerogative, you know? Yeah, I think I think it's interesting, like the approach of the copycat just sort of like ignoring them. And, you know, doing your own thing even bigger and better. And they're figuring it out. Because I guarantee someone is listening to this conversation and has had a similar experience, because I feel like this is happening a lot. Your situation is really egregious where they're copying the bio on Instagram and following.

Rita
Yeah, people were thinking it was me, actually, I will talk about a situation that I learned a lot from one of the things that I feel like I have messed up at this time, talking, like, let's go back to like, try to find things on the internet, or like find your niche. In 2018, I got on the whole beaded earrings craze, really cool, followed a lot of really cool people that may be earrings, and was really inspired by those people and would make their patterns in different colors. And at one point, I was like, I could sell these on Instagram and tried it. And the person who I had copied and I didn't like I genuinely didn't think about oh my gosh, I'm copying someone and trying to make money. I was just like, making these fun earrings. Like I'm a quilter. And so like quilts are often just copied and you see a pattern and you're like, I know how to do that. And you do it in different colors. And it's just not. It's just kind of more of an accepted thing, I think in that community. But it's not in some communities, which is totally fair. And so this person reached out to me and was like, Hey, I see that you're cutting my designs, this doesn't feel good. I would really urge you to like find your own like style, or like something that's like, for you, and like, oh my gosh, I like deleted all of the things never to talk about it again. You know, like, felt really bad and was like, Oh my God, how did I not think this was copying. And so that's where I wanted to give this woman the benefit of the doubt of maybe she thought she saw the idea and she was gonna do it differently. And in her mind, this was different enough. I don't really know it, how she got to that with all the things but like, let's give her the benefit of the doubt we all mess up in life. But that was a really big learning experience for me. And yeah, like, I have been there. I have done that. I think the differences is that when I was called out, I apologized and like deleted things immediately. And yeah, so shame story.

Amanda
Well, I honestly I think it's amazing to hear you tell that story. And I think that's something else that people need to hear too because I mean, coming from like a big corporate background in fashion where all we did was copy people like all day every day and we were like basically forced to buy...

Rita
Yeah, just go on Instagram guys.

Amanda
Yeah, it it always felt so dirty and terrible. I think you know, like the company I worked for what I was be really angry when someone came forward and said you copied me. Like would be like Who do they think they are like they don't even matter like basically like they're ruining everything and it's like another problem I have to deal with. And I was kind of like, why don't we just take a step back and realize that like, they're just trying to get by us if it was like lives? Yeah, people and you wouldn't be feeling stressed out about having to deal with this if you hadn't done it in the first place.

Rita
If this ever happens with like a big corporation, like I will, I will blast like, I don't care. I do want to enforce people to be like kind because there are humans behind every screen. Like there's no robot that answers DMS, but like, not cool. But I think that if this were ever to happen again, which at this point, now that I've kind of like moved back from it. I'm a little flattered. Some people were like, taken as a compliment. I was like, fuck you. But I was, you know, the moment.

Amanda
But it's also like, this is your thing. This is you.

Rita
Yeah, yeah. I'm like, selling my, my, my selling, I sold to do this. But I just, it feels like I'm not just like building the skill brand. And like, what do I want my aesthetic to be like, This is who I've been my entire life. And I'm just like, coming into my own and like, sharing it with people and doing something that like, makes me happy. And I'm so privileged to do this. But yeah, it felt really felt like someone had come into my studio, and rifled through my things. And even if they didn't take anything from me, it was like, what were you doing in here, bud? Like, I would have welcomed you in if you would have asked.

Amanda
Yeah, exactly. And that that's the thing that makes me sad about this whole thing is that we actually have this amazing community of people who want to help other people, start their own businesses be sustainable.

Rita
When she got back to me, she's like, I thought the sewing community on Instagram was going to be nice, and I was wrong. And I'm like, it is when you're nice. I don't you know, and I hope that she's able to rejoin at some point, like, you know, like, I'm someone who I had a lot of shame and was like, I'm never gonna sell anything online. Oh, my God, I'm a horrible person, Baba, all these, you know, this whole thing. And obviously, we've moved past that a little bit. And I have found my own thing, and it feels genuine. And I don't feel like anything I do. I'm like, oh, no, am I copying someone like, you know, like, it feels it feels really authentic to who I am. And I hope that she finds that in her life. Because when I found her personal Instagram, she's a really cool gal. She drives like a lime green Volkswagen bus. I grew up in a Volkswagen bus, like, we're in the club, that's really cool. Like, create a brand around yourself. Because yeah, it just, it doesn't work when you try to like when the goal of the thing is to copy something, it just it's an authentic, you know?

Amanda
And ultimately, you're gonna be unhappy because you're not doing right. Things that are from you, you're doing things from someone else.

Rita
Like, it's, it's sad to me too, because it's like, I have so many ideas in my brain that I will never be able to get out. Because I just don't have the energy, all the resources all of the time, like, I'm one person. And it seems like your lack, like you feel like you're lacking and creativity. And that's like, I don't want to say sad, like, I get it, but also like, find that inspiration, like, go out into the woods, you know, go listen to some cool music. I don't know.

Amanda
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I just think, you know, having your own business is really stressful, you work really hard, you deal with a lot of bullshit, people are mean to you on the internet. It's only it's your passion for doing this thing that is so important to you, that you have so much emotion and thought and innovation will you know, kind of like invested in that makes it worthwhile.

Rita
And I've invested so many hours that I didn't know if I'd ever see any payback on that. And I'm glad I did, but at the same time, like that was such a big, like, emotional investment. You know?

Amanda
So you're not gonna have that same sort of investment. If you just took someone else's entire business. Even their Instagram bio, yeah, ran with it. Like it's just never you're never gonna have that same relationship that makes hard times more bearable. And it's like a journey.

Rita
It's not like I like popped on Instagram and like, wrote out this thing. Like, we have come a long way. We have learned so much. You know, people are like, your Instagram wisdom. I'm like, I'm definitely not I'm an idiot with a phone. But like, you know, to, you know, like it. It's like my hard work is kind of it's starting to like pay off and maybe like show a little bit and has like, just go just go on that journey. You know, it's like the people that go on hikes just to get the Instagram picture at the top versus the people that go on hikes to like, go and be outside and like get away and go like, do something with a friend. Go see that lake or, you know, like, why are you? Why are you doing this? Just makes the hike twice as hard. Yeah, making sure that like we go back now and it's like, there's a gorgeous lake behind you that if you walk another mile, you can swim in the best lake of your entire life, you know, like, Lake of dreams and Nope, just get that picture and go back to your car and get back to civilization ASAP.

Amanda
Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I think that's a great metaphor. And I think it's a really profound argument against copying someone else's idea. Because maybe let's say Panty Fairy initially was very successful. Eventually, she was gonna hit a wall where she was just like, why am I doing panties all the time?

Rita
Have I hit that wall yet?

Amanda
Well, no, but for people who are like, yeah, into it in the same way, like when it is, long you from the beginning, when because I'm sure for you. You're constantly, like you've been on this journey with the products you create, where, you know, you think back to the very first one you make you made. And I guarantee there are all these like, innovations and changes.

Rita
Oh, I have them. I wear them. I've altered them a little bit. And I'm like, Wow, this doesn't always feel in fit for. They're like one of the last pair of underwear I wear in my underwear drawer, you know? And I'm like, Oh, wow. Like we've come and then I pop, you know, a new pair on and I'm like, oh, yeah, here we are.

Amanda
If you are like I'm just gonna go out and basically steal someone's entire business model product. Identity, right? Yeah. You're never you didn't have that journey. So first off, your product isn't going to be as good. Sorry.

Rita
And the the selling point. I'm like, I mean, I know my underwear expensive. I have industrial machinery. I've been doing this my entire life. You know, I'm not the best at everything. I can always get better, but it's like it, you know? Yeah. I know. Like, there's a way to sew a pair of underwear and she did not know that way. And I would have loved to show her that way. But, you know, she Yeah. She was also using another small makers free underwear pattern and making it look like she was using a vintage pattern. But like I had some demand people are like internet sleuths. I was impressed yet scared. From

Amanda
Yeah, no, I, I just feel like she was setting herself up for failure. Even she didn't realize it. But eventually, she was gonna figure it out. I mean, I have a lot of sympathy for her. I don't think that what she did is okay.

Rita
Me too. I hope that she's doing okay. I like she had a lot of hopes and dreams for 2022 I hope she was able to like re harness that like drive. And like, go in her own direction. Yeah, I actually, I actually sent her a message after she deleted her account and was like, Hey, if you ever want to model for me, like, let me know. She never responded, I and I told her I was like, I understand that this is just not something you're interested in. And I wouldn't tell people and be like, this is that person. I'm like, you have a really cool vibe. I want some pictures of underwear in front of a Volkswagen bus. Like, you know, like, please, I don't think that she'll ever reach out to me. And I was like, am I dumb and ridiculous for even sending that to her? I don't know. I was just, you know, like, hey, this could be a really cool like, full circle thing that we do. I wouldn't say who it is. And if anyone figured it out. I would. I would block them like we're not we're not bullies on here. Yeah, like we you know, we all are learning identity things in my life. I'm sure everyone has done things that they feel deeply shameful about. And we're not about that.