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DISRxUPT is a podcast from the Cedarville University Center for Pharmacy Innovation which explores novel advances in the practice of pharmacy. From nanotechnology to unique public health initiatives, DISRxUPT will highlight stories of pharmacists who are changing the paradigm of patient care.
Tune in for new content once a month detailing how the profession of pharmacy continues to change and how the Center for Pharmacy Innovation is playing a key role in this transformation.
Welcome to DISRxUPT, a podcast of the Cedarville University Center for Pharmacy Innovation. Today on the podcast, we will be hosting Dr. Kevin Walker, who has been a leader and voice in medication optimization, clinical technology, and care transformation. Kevin has spent his career and roles across the health care and health care technology spectrum. He has consistently used his platforms and positions to promote the role of the pharmacist and to educate both patients and the health care industry on opportunities to positively impact care.
Justin Cole:Hey, listeners. Welcome back to DISRxUPT. I am pumped today to have a new guest on the podcast for you guys to learn from. Today, I've got Kevin Walker joining us today, and he has a wealth of experience in so many different areas as an innovator, an entrepreneur, a technologist, an educator, and just an overall leader in health care. So we'll we're gonna talk about a lot of things, innovation related and pharmacy. We'll talk about foods as medicine. We'll talk about tech. It's it's just gonna be a blast. So, Kevin, it's a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thanks for your willingness to come and join me today.
Kevin Walker:Oh, deeply appreciate you, my friend. It's, it's very humbling to have that kind of introduction. I'm just, very thankful to have all the opportunities that kind of the Lord has given me over the years.
Justin Cole:Absolutely. Well, I don't want to delay any more from our listeners hearing your story. So maybe you could tell us your unique story related to your upbringing and even your journey to becoming a pharmacist. What has that looked like for you?
Kevin Walker:Yeah. I I feel like when I go on that winding road, you know, it's the, the Robert Frost kind of tale. And, for me, I was born and raised on the Yakima Reservation. So I'm a Native American Yakima descendant. And so my teeth were really cut inside of the public health services, particularly Indian Health Services or IHS, in those spaces.
Kevin Walker:And so growing up as a young guy, I knew that I had a passion to be able to serve others, didn't know how that was going to work out. And so I went into what I thought was going to be a drug and disease research kind of pathway, Justin. Going down that pathway, when I went initially into college, I found out that that was a very lonely path with a lot of hours inside of a laboratory setting. And those rhizobium and mass spectrometers, they just weren't as friendly as talking to other human beings.
Justin Cole:That's true.
Kevin Walker:I made the pivot, you know, over and thought, well, I should do something inside of medicine. Talked to a number of colleagues that were doing, you know, various tracks, and pharmacy was one that I'd considered. I wasn't sure if that was going to be the right space for me, but went into an IHS, the one that I grew up in, and visited with their pharmacy team. And when I first walked in, I thought, am I going to experience what I think of pharmacy, you know, as a high school, early college student being someone that is filling prescriptions and having some expertise when it comes to drug management? And what I realized is there's a deep cultural relevance in the ways that they are practicing medicine and connecting with other human beings that these IHS pharmacists were trying to make sure these communities were staying healthy, not through drugs, but they're staying healthy in any means that they could muster.
Kevin Walker:If it came to different food programs, if it came to exercise programs, if it came to, you know, healthy heart programs coming out of Colorado kind of research initiative, initiative, these pharmacists were working as primary care providers for a lot of their individuals and collaborating very deeply with the entire health care team. And so for me, Justin, that was a real eye opening experience to go, it's amazing that I can be a specialist, you know, get my degree, and be able to help human beings in this very robust way. And so that kind of started my journey into pharmacy. Went through pharmacy school, knew I loved technology, and loved the idea of being an entrepreneur. And so after getting out of school, the one thing that I I realized is that even with some of the background components that I'd had, the educational training, and some of the experiences along the way, I knew that I needed a more detailed and thoughtful approach on how do I actually do this.
Kevin Walker:I later heard a story about a clinician that said, you know, they're highly educated. They went through all the training components. I believe they're Harvard educated, went out as a cardiologist, and the first patient they saw died of CHF, something very basic. And it humbled them deeply, and I felt the exact same way going through my geriatric residency that there's one thing to understand textbook and algorithmic medicine. There's another to practice it so human beings can be successful in life.
Kevin Walker:And so that was a real benefit to me to to work under you know, I still mentor, Brian Gates, and go through that geriatric residency and see the hospital systems and transitional care kind of all come to a head and realize a lot of the difficulties, my friend, when it comes to how is medicine practiced in The United States. And so I give that longer background to really say, like, my eyes were opened in lots of ways through the transitions. And then my first job, I was a way way too young pharmacy director in a critical access setting. And I was very blessed to have a lot of people over me, chief nursing officers, CEOs, CFOs. They were very willing to train me on all the things that I had never encountered in school when it came to billing mechanisms, when it came to logistics, when it came to staffing components, of understanding the system and the way it was built and how it could be deployed to successfully help a community stay healthy.
Kevin Walker:And so from from there, I realized that I'd I've never liked the medicine is broken thought, Justin, like, that it's just a broken system. And I've heard so many other people say, no. It works exactly how it's supposed to work because, you know, the fee for service components are, you know, getting the bills in the door, and we're taking advantage of those things. All I've thought really over the years is how can I take the current models that are in place, and how can I use little old Kevin, with the influence that I have or I've been given and be able to make just tiny little changes to make things better? Right?
Kevin Walker:How can I just make my little ripple in the pond? And, so what I did there is I realized that there's a lot of benefit to patients having more empowerment. Them having a continuous cycle of coming back into the ER and seeing me wasn't positive. Them having a chronic disease that was continuing to go downhill, without them feeling like they could make a whole lot of change other than go to a pharmacy and pick up pills, or go and see their doctor on an occasional basis and have a reevaluation where they're going down the exact same pathways, you know, wasn't positive overall. So that really pushed me in my career shift from being inside of administrative spaces and trying to innovate from within as a director of clinical development in some of these systems to going into the health care technology space and trying to work directly with individual patients.
Kevin Walker:And then, you know, later on down the line, because of the geriatric background, it's all about optimizing, my friend. You and I both know that, and I know we're both passionate about that is how can we find ways for patients not to be stuck in that same we talked about it for the same algorithm slump of, okay. I fit these criteria. Now I have to move left on the algorithm and down to two steps, and here's my next space. How can I how can I jump over that?
Kevin Walker:How can I get to the point where it can be personalized and there can be some shared decision making inside of the process? And so now I'm, you know, working more intimately in the biomarker health AI or mainly machine learning and computer vision and the what is called the medically tailored meal space or the food as medicine space. To bring those things all together to give patients more information, more choice, and more availability to kind of choose their own health care journeys has been a big part of my upbringing. So there's my very long winded intro, my friend.
Justin Cole:Well, I love it. And there are a couple of things that really stick out to me. I think the first is simply when we face challenges within our current system, we can often simply make excuses, right, and say, well, that's how it is. Not sure what we can do about it. But instead, you, like many of the innovators that I talk to, flip the script, right?
Justin Cole:Instead of saying, well, we're stuck in this broken system, it's the system it getting the outcomes that it's designed for. Instead, asking the question, how can we incrementally change it over time to make it better? And the other thing and Kevin, you may even use these words yourself. You've talked a lot about tech and innovation, but at the end of the day, it's about making care more human, right? Really connecting with the person and understanding what their needs are, leveraging the technologies we then have, but not just for the purpose of innovation, for the purpose of holistic health.
Justin Cole:And so we'll get into both digital health, health care tech, and also the food as medicine space or medically tailored meals here as two avenues that you've had particular experience with. But man, if we could just all leave this podcast thinking, how do I flip the script when we see a challenge and instead look for the opportunities there? Well, I think we'd all be poised to make an even bigger difference out there for our patients.
Kevin Walker:That's so well said. And I think the the opportunities out there, you know, really they come in different forms. So I've I've stayed involved in my university, you know, and you you talked about flipping the script. I think some of the things I've done with being part of the indigenous healers cohort at Washington State University and part of the, what is called, the rural health initiative there. In fact, we have a meeting here coming up soon.
Kevin Walker:It's just trying to find ways to take the perspectives that I've looked at over time and try to deploy those inside of some kind of system, you know, that can make that ripple a little bit larger. And the exact same thing with work that I've done within ASCP and the Northwest Pharmacy Convention is coming up here really soon. Can I educate every pharmacist on biomarkers and why it's important in our careers to understand those digital biomarkers? Probably not. But can I participate and give my time to be able to educate on a regional basis or national basis a few tidbits and a few easy, like, entry points?
Kevin Walker:Absolutely. You know? And that's the exact same kind of work that I'm doing. It's funny you you mentioned the human piece because in the podcast that Donna Bartlett and I put together with the med list, that's exactly it. You know?
Kevin Walker:But I think the, the human element when it comes to tying some of those dots together, sometimes we get siloed that we have, you know, a listener group that is clinicians and a listener group that is, you know, patients or outward facing clients. And the real beauty and magic into making it human is bringing us all together, realizing where some of those gaps exist, and then making it human by knowing it's no one's fault, but let's find some solutions to be able to solve them. So I appreciate you bringing that that component up.
Justin Cole:Yeah. And for both of us, Kevin, that's rooted in more than just this conviction that people are valuable, but it's rooted in some of the convictions we have based on our faith. And I'm sure we'll get into that a little bit later. But first, I wanted to go back and maybe let's go down the health tech space first, if we could. I'd love to come back to medically tailored meals later, because that's a fascinating thing, too.
Justin Cole:But you have been doing a lot of work in the health tech space. So was there a moment where you really felt drawn to health tech, and you were like, you know what? This is something that we need to leverage, and I wanna be a part of it.
Kevin Walker:Yeah. Great question. Yeah. There was. There was a moment when I realized that from my geriatric residency to going into working in a hospital system, that the questions that were that I was being asked were much more likely to be tech based than they were clinical based, when I took that first role as a hospital pharmacy director.
Kevin Walker:Meaning, all the tech systems that were kind of built around us or around the teams that I was working with, when they were broken, the clinical questions couldn't be asked because those were the first things that needed to be fixed. The simplifications of a an automated drug cabinet, you know, the aspects of an electronic health record, all the nuances built inside of those for simplification and safety aspects for the medical team were ones that I became very acutely aware of. You know, we added on at that time, which sounds going to sound ancient now. We're putting in a bedside medication verification component for one of our hospital wings, and that was a large lift for the scanning components that were put in place, a few of the changes in the drug dictionaries that were necessary. We've had a few different systems for automated drug cabinets, navigating those and the the pockets and the cubies for opening and for, necessitating some additional qualifications for the individuals who were accessing those pockets.
Kevin Walker:So, basically, this, I realized that the health care technology space was dictating inside of the system how we're operating and how it was being functional. And I always thought to myself, well, if we're relying on this internally, you know, inside of hospitals, inside of pharmacies, inside of clinics, why wouldn't we think about patients needing to utilize this on the outside for their own safety and their own benefit overall? And so that was a real epiphany moment for me, is that if we're inventing systems to be able to keep ourselves safe as experts, you know, literal eight, twelve year degrees to keep us safe from hurting people with these things, why not have these same capabilities on the outside?
Justin Cole:Yeah. That's great. And we really do need to think about those systems because they're meant to support what we're trying to do, what we're trying to accomplish. Yep, that's great. So what do you think are some of the biggest issues facing us in our current health care system for pharmacists related to tech?
Kevin Walker:Some of the biggest challenges for pharmacists in health care systems related to tech, what are their challenges?
Justin Cole:Yep.
Kevin Walker:You know, I think that, you know, right now, there is such a burden when it comes to the number of scripts that are being evaluated that us finding the bandwidth to be more successful, you know, within that space is a necessity for us to look at new kind of tech innovations to make us better at our jobs. And a lot of times, just like we're seeing right now, you know, the the word health AI could be nauseating for some of our audience that has heard that so many times. Every company has an AI component. Every company has, you know, a a new gadget that is basically chat GPT with a little bit of tweaking on the back end. But all joking aside, I think that the simple wins are the ones that are really being highlighted in the market right now for the clinician space, and that's a lot of ambient listening technology.
Kevin Walker:Right? We're seeing that, can I take the administrative burden off of my shoulders as a clinician so I don't have to have the, quote, unquote, pajama time to write down all of the notes that are necessary to be successful? And so those exact same things for pharmacists inside of health systems or inside of independent pharmacies or inside of clinic systems are the exact same administrative burden and task burden components that can either be automated or leveraged within technology. I think those pieces can, can be a a massive win so that we can have more time to be able to take care of the other aspects of care. Interestingly, when we start to increase our bandwidth, Justin, the one thing that I always caution folks on, and I've we've talked about it kind of several times and some other settings, is if you have more time in the day, does that mean that you give more time to each patient, or does that mean you have more time to do more So you see more patients, and you just refill the book further.
Kevin Walker:And so I think that's the cautionary aspect when it comes to you asking the question of the challenge. The challenge in my mind is we're we have the technology. It's coming our way. It's making us more efficient. The challenge is how do we leverage it?
Kevin Walker:Do we leverage it just to do more robotic automated tasks that may be a little bit more more difficult now that technology has taken away the easy stuff, or do we leverage it to be more intimate, more human, connect with more individuals internally on our teams and the patients that we're serving and have that bandwidth and capacity to be able to do so? And I I feel like that is the challenge facing us today.
Justin Cole:Well, you you said that so well, and you've highlighted where this should be about keeping the end goal in mind. Right? It's not just innovation for innovation's sake or simply to save time. We're going to fill that time with something, and the question is, what? And that's why we need to keep that true north that's guiding us in whatever organisation we're a part of in our in our view all the time.
Justin Cole:So how do you think and you maybe you've talked about this a little bit, but how can pharmacists leverage some of these digital health tools now to enhance patient engage engagement and adherence specifically?
Kevin Walker:Great question. Yeah. So I think that, you know, when it comes to some of the tools that are coming in the direction of pharmacy as of as of today and and then leveraging them for adherence in particular or really anything when it comes to, you know, medication management for individual patients, the one thing that we all have to acknowledge is every every patient, and I should say that with a caveat, maybe it's ninety nine percent of patients inside of The United States, they have access to Google. Right? They have access to some of these tools that are already there.
Kevin Walker:And so when we are blaming doctor Google ten years ago when Justin and I were saying, oh, man. The interesting questions that folks are bringing us. Doctor ChatGPT, talk to Doctor LLM, he's a lot smarter, you know, than Doctor Google was, and he makes us have to think in lots of ways. And so I I believe that some of the things that we have to do is we have to be able to leverage these tools in ways that we can understand how our patients are using them. So in other words, we know that a lot of these tools are extremely powerful and the information that they can pull together in the right hand.
Kevin Walker:So I'll give an example. If we were asking, know, one of these large language models to give Justin and I a meal that we're going to serve the entire audience, and we just plug that information in with no cooking background, with no ideas of the size capacity of the audience, with no allergy information, any of those things, it's gonna give us a really nice sounding answer with not a lot of context. Right? And so that's the exact same kind of components to be able to educate our patients on how to contextualize some of the components that they're putting into prompting and then be able to vet them through expert eyes. And so I I think there there once again, there has to be the bandwidth, right, for us to be able to assess these outputs that are coming our direction and helping those patients to understand, here's how this tool can be leveraged.
Kevin Walker:When it comes to the adherence space in particular, you know, there's a number of technologies and companies that I've worked with in the past that they're using some devices, you know, to be able to connect to pill bottles, or there's devices that are, you know, basically connecting to all of their pill boxes and giving some kind of reminder capacity through applications. And all of those, I think, can be highly beneficial. But when it comes to, you know, these individuals truly having the ability to be adherent to what their what their medication process is, we have to understand what are the basics that are keeping them from being adherent in the first place. Right? Is it just the fact that I need a a buzzer on my phone to tell me when to take the pill?
Kevin Walker:I think all of us know that's way oversimplified, right, when it comes to solving that equation. And so it really boils then back down to if someone is not taking a medication, how do we use technology to help understand why overall? And so using some of the platforms that are currently available for us to be able to procure some of that information from patients, I think it's going to be a a huge benefit for us overall when it comes to, is it pricing related? Is it related to side effect profiles? Are we monitoring things appropriately for these individual patients?
Kevin Walker:Were they consulted in the beginning to have a shared decision making capacity that they feel like these medications they're taking are part of the regimen that they wanted to take? And so I think the adherence element there's so many great pieces of tech to be able to remind us when to take meds or maybe give us some information or education on those individual medications, but really boiling down the technology that's out there to say, why are my patients not taking the meds the way that they're scheduled to be taken? Like, what is the true core reason why and leveraging tech to be able to answer some of those questions and then maybe even automate the ability for us to respond to those assertions from the patients, I think that'll be the next wave of of adherence, not just sticking to, are my patients taking their medications at the exact same time of day every day, and I can utilize some kind of mechanism to evaluate that? Are they picking up their refills on the exact same day? But diving even deeper and saying, what are the outcomes that my patient's targeting?
Kevin Walker:What's keeping them from achieving those individual outcomes and going beyond adherence and compliance to, you know, truly achieving outcomes in a, quote, unquote, value based care type of way is where I really think technology is gonna help us most. But
Justin Cole:Yeah. That's really helpful. And it makes me think too on the front end when we're designing these technologies, we may have grand ideas in our, you know, in our own offices as we sit here. Right. But unless we're going out and actually understanding what the pinch points are for the individuals we're caring for in the initial design of these technologies, we may not realize the value that's there.
Justin Cole:And so that's why for you listeners, you know, I am a big fan of design thinking. Step one is empathize, right? You go and understand what the pinch points are and the why behind why patients may struggle with something or why an outcome is difficult to achieve. And so we have that on the front end. You've also described how that technology, when rightly used, can continually gather that perspective right from the patient.
Justin Cole:What is it that is a motivating or demotivating factor? What barriers are there to helping them achieve those outcomes? And the more we can move to outcomes based rather than simple, like you said, percentage of adherence or other things that at the end of the day may not directly correlate with the outcome that we're looking for. I think if we can move towards outcomes, we'd all be in a better spot. So, yeah, that's great perspective.
Kevin Walker:Yeah, I love that.
Justin Cole:Another thing that I want to ask you about is, with AI being around, there's a lot of discussion about privacy and security of patient data when we're using digital health technologies. I just read an article this morning. A lot of people, if you've been on any social media platform, have probably seen these AI figures, right? These figurines that you can make of yourself. But to generate one of those, you have to give them a good bit of personal data, including a picture for this agent to generate it.
Justin Cole:And the question that this article I was reading posed was how far are humans willing to go in terms of sharing their information when the output they get back is fun and entertaining? Right? So so that brings me to the back to the question again is what are some of these data security and privacy things we need to think about if we're leveraging health tech or digital health technologies?
Kevin Walker:That's a great question and a really fun comparison when it comes to how far are we willing to go. And my my honest answer is I don't know if we've reached those limitations yet, Justin. I mean, when it comes to getting a good laugh, what we're willing to give up when it comes to digital currency and our own, like, personal identities has been very significant. I mean, we we have lived through the massive intrusion of social media into our lives, how pervasive that can be in so many different ways, and how much information we have given these individual platforms without even knowing it. And these platforms have just become smarter on how they're leveraging our data in in various ways, if it be marketing or whatever the case might be.
Kevin Walker:And a number of them that most of the audience likely knows is we thought they were just a search engine. We thought they were just a place for us to share pictures with families, and now they're entering the health care platforms. And if we don't think they're using our data that was already being shared with them, then we're purposely putting the blinders on, you know, when it comes to what the ambitions and utilizations of these technology companies, you know, are going to be. And having that data is a very powerful thing overall. But, you know, kind of getting back to the central premise of, you know, when it comes to what's the the privacy and security aspects we need to be aware of overall for our our data, we're seeing a number of things go away from being cloud based computing or the ability for us just to run something through an Internet platform and having it locally hosted.
Kevin Walker:And so there's one thing that I think a lot of systems are starting to do and build is have some kind of a local hosting components built within their individual systems so that they can control where the data is going, how it's being utilized. The number of BAAs or business associate agreements that are out there for it to be HIPAA qualified is another really fascinating element because now our data is being given to another third party or a vendor that then could be using an LLM or some other system on it. And so us having a little bit more data integrity when it comes to being health care leaders and protecting our patients, it it really comes down to that. You know, us understanding to a deeper level what technologies are being used within that business associate agreement that are keeping my patients' data points safe. Because if there's something that's open to a a wide ranging LLM that can be seen by everybody or potentially has some encryption related issues or other problems, we've already seen what happens with systems that are fully vetted and encrypted with some of the problems that popped up with Change Healthcare and others over the years, that those still have some loopholes that can be gone through.
Kevin Walker:So that's one thing that is a bit of caution on one side, I would say, Justin, that we just we have to understand now more deeply that these these software kind of attachments that we're utilizing to make ourselves more efficient, they're also using other pieces of software that are on top of that. And the fact that they're using some kind of large language models or other artificial intelligence machine learning processes, we have to be more vigilant in understanding, you know, their data security and privacy components to a different level than we did even ten years ago. And then when it comes to patients giving out their information, the ability for us to deidentify, you know, data is is a difficult piece because we have so many tools at our disposal that we wanna be able to leverage, you know, those tools to help us as patients, to help us as clinicians. And so now we have to be even more vigilant when it comes to the de identification of data and making sure that those data points can't be reassembled and and utilized against our patients. I know that a lot of fears came through the recent kind of bankruptcy components of twenty three and me and some other genomics groups that are currently out there that I know you you know intimately.
Kevin Walker:And what's gonna happen to that data? There's been callouts for patients and clients to reach out and have their records expunged or eliminated from some of those platforms to make sure that they're not being used inappropriately kind of going forward. And I think that overall vigilance is something that there's so many unanswered questions on how do we navigate these next few years when it comes to artificial intelligence being used as a primary source of health care information and data exchange that we we haven't answered yet. And so I feel like the the need to proceed with caution is something that it's it's been said way too often, but at the same time, it can't be said enough. Because we we right now are venturing into waters that we've never seen before when it comes to some of the data privacy and security aspects throughout there in health care.
Kevin Walker:And some of the things that we're doing as as clinicians, especially with how interwoven our health care systems I'll use that instead of vertically inter integrated. We'll use interwoven, our health care systems are. We have to make sure that we are protecting our patients and their best interests overall. And so that once again put some pressure back on on pharmacists and other clinicians to make sure that they're not being too open with using some of this technology that could look at their patient information more intimately.
Justin Cole:Yeah. I think those are some good pieces of advice for all of us to consider. So I'm curious, are there any future trends in health tech that you're most excited about? Maybe that's an unfair question because I feel like we had one tech boom maybe in the last fifteen to twenty years. And now with these large language models and other things, including devices, wearables, like, tech is going in a whole bunch of different directions. But are there a couple particular things that you're most excited about?
Kevin Walker:Yeah. I mean, if we drill it down to a couple particular things, I think that right now, the access that we have on a more scaled basis, so, you know, mobile phones or smartphone access at one time was a limiting factor when it came to how do we deliver an application to an individual for them to leverage it, and how likely is it that they will download that, understand how to use it, all those pieces was limiting. Now, you know, we're seeing such a large, uptick in how many people are leveraging mobile technologies and the technologies within their individual systems for every piece of a life. And so knowing that that has been an integration for us now gives us the capacity capacity to do tele, components of health care in brand new ways, you know, that we can tap into new data sources, that we can be able to understand the the metrics that are coming in through some of these devices in in new ways. And so I think the ubiquitousness of, technology being deployed in our pockets is one that I'm really excited about, Justin, overall.
Kevin Walker:At the same time, I think that we know as clinicians that data is great. Too much data is drowning. And so what we have to end up being good stewards of, and I'm really excited about, is seeing some of the technology starting to take all this massive pools of data, be able to vet it in ways that say, you know, what's actually useful for us as clinicians? What should be flagged, or what should we look at, or what should draw our attention? You know, those pieces of technology that are bringing in the wearable device data, some of the digital biomarker data that's coming into play, and making it more consumable, you know, by us as as clinicians and honestly palatable, you know, for us as clinicians.
Kevin Walker:I think that is just as exciting as every new bit of technology or new way to look at a, a system or a disease state. Because in one way, shape, or form, we have to be able to digest that information and make it actionable. And so without those technologies going into play to really simplify all the data that's coming in, you know, we we don't have the capacity to do that. I'd say the other technology that I'll add in there outside of, you know, the ubiquitousness of of software and wearables and, mobile devices and the technology that's being used to basically curate all the data signals coming our direction is this digital biomarker space. And so why?
Kevin Walker:You know, why is Kevin talking about this? Why am I talking about it at the Northwest Pharmacy Convention? Why am I passionate about it in general? I I do, like, from a from a bias standpoint, like, am connected to companies that are leveraging these technologies, but sometimes the bias is more along the lines of, I didn't know about it before, and now I do. And so within these these companies that I'm I'm working with, I'm seeing that the ability for us I'm a rural guy.
Kevin Walker:You know, I talked very beginning about growing up on a reservation. Very passionate about helping populations that don't have access readily available access to clinicians and or, clinic bases. And so now if we can scale the ability for us to assess a disease state through a mobile phone and be able to look at all these biomarkers to see how how is someone's chronic kidney disease how is someone's chronic kidney disease progressing? How is someone's mild cognitive impairment progressing or declining? How is their heart disease doing?
Kevin Walker:And we can do all these things through a mobile device that they all currently possess. There's no additional training necessary, and we can evaluate those things at scale for populations that don't have direct access to care. It's just it's it's extremely rewarding and exciting to know that we can truly help people in a very simplified way and be able to reach them in ways that before seemed very unrealistic and or futuristic to do.
Justin Cole:Man, there's so many great places to cover there. And it makes me want to ask you one question that I get asked for pretty frequently. Is all this tech gonna take away pharmacist jobs? I think I know your answer, but I wanna hear it. What what would you say to that?
Kevin Walker:Yes. Absolutely. We're all we're all going away. We lost all of our jobs here, all joking aside.
Kevin Walker:No. I think that, you know, the one saying that, all the audience, I'm sure, and you and I have heard so many times is, it's it's starting to sound, like, a little drowned out in my mind, but that clinicians will not be replaced. Clinicians will be replaced by clinicians that can use this advancing technology. Right? The technology is not going to, by itself, get rid of clinicians. Yep.
Kevin Walker:And and I agree. Right? There there are some elements that, yes, we have to know how to use technology. But my real hope, Justin, is this, that when it comes to what ends up happening at pharmacy, a lot of the components that were put into jobs, and I know this will maybe ruffle a couple feathers, but a lot of the components that were put into our job descriptions were ones that I'm sure each one of us knew, I did not need a doctorate to do this. Like, there is no way that my salary can be justified through these these tasks that I'm doing on a regular basis, and I am not actually benefiting my patient population in a way that is justifiable of having a PharmD on a collaborative care team.
Kevin Walker:Right? And so with that being said and the tomatoes hitting my door, I think that it'll allow us to to expand further clinically, from a human perspective, connecting with people on a deep level. Hopefully, you know, I'm very biased here as well, but from a spiritual level, you know, connecting with individuals on things that actually matter so that moving the needle of health can be done because we have intimate relationships with patients and that the technology will allow us to have those relationships and to expand our capacity to develop those relationships and and benefit patients overall through their outcomes. So, no, I don't think that technology will be taking our jobs as long as we, as pharmacy, realize that we have to continue to craft and be engaged in how does the health care system move forward. Because if the health care system stays in a fee for service model and, you know, some of the things that have already been proposed, which is wild to me, that have already been proposed at a senate level, at a federal senate level that we should recognize AI as potential providers that can prescribe drugs, Those things are real.
Kevin Walker:And to a lot of the audience, I'm sure it was like, you gotta be kidding me. They are, and I'm sure Justin and could throw them in the show notes so you can take a peek at them. But those things are being considered. So if those are being considered today, if we are not active in the way that health care is transformed so that those relationships and those human elements matter in the way care is delivered and that the outcomes and metrics are dependent on those relationships, then, yes, the job capacity, the job outlook, all of those things will continue to decrease because we'll be commoditized in lots of ways. And so I feel like that is an essential call to everybody that is a clinician to say, how do we validate ourselves without saying we are repositories of information that we're able to regurgitate back to patients?
Kevin Walker:Right? Or we're task managers that are really good at doing x, y, and z things in a certain number of steps and in a certain cadence of those steps. We have to find ways and capacities to broaden our our ability to connect with patients and to move outcomes. And I I'm very hopeful.
Kevin Walker:There's a lot of very bright people in pharmacy. Hopeful. There's a lot of very bright people in pharmacy. There's a lot of bright people in medicine, that realize that we could do so much more if we were unburdened from some of these tasks that technology can take advantage of, and we can then be paid to do things that can actually benefit patients.
Justin Cole:Well said, Kevin. I wanna also ask you about your podcasting. So you are really active in this space. You've got the Med List that has been going on here for a year or so. You've also been active with podcasts for ASCP and other places too.
Justin Cole:So tell me about how you use podcasting to try to move the needle in health care. You guys talk about tons of amazing topics, so tell us about that. And also, you can give your shameless plug for your podcast as well.
Kevin Walker:Yeah. Yeah. No shame whatsoever. Yeah. So I feel like the the podcasting space was really interesting because when I was in the developing, like, pharmacy organizations and trying to connect people to new concepts, the best way that I knew how, Justin, is really to to give them little digestible bits of information.
Kevin Walker:You know? So I remember doing podcasts with a ton of innovators in their various spaces that they had disciplines kind of covering. And and all of those, I thought, were very interesting. But my my true passions, you know, are really inside of how do we how do we make the complex less complicated? So the med list in general, like, choose that as a title?
Kevin Walker:The Med List, like, it couldn't be any more simple to be able to say, but that may be and this is a biased audience, so you guys will get it maybe more than the rest of the world. That is one of the most complicated things in all of medicine is the med list. Right? And so we're taking something that is very simple, very easy to say. Everybody understands kind of the basic concepts of it.
Kevin Walker:But once you dive deep, that is one of the most complicated, most problematic. I mean, I just saw another statistic today that the likelihood of some kind of med medication adverse effect being the third most likely cause of death, you know, that continues to come up over and over again, the amount of money that gets poured into it. So the med list is really exactly that. It's just it's my and Donna's conduit on and we just hired on our first producer, so that's been a real blessing as well. And Tim Cabot, so shout out to him.
Kevin Walker:That's really our ability to give back. It's really a a love project for for patients and clinicians to be able to say, you know, here's what we found out. Here's some folks we've talked to. You're able to connect some some clinical and or health care dots, you know, together. And that's really how I've I've given back to the pharmacy community, to the medical community, and is saying, how can I bring some of these disparate systems together and make it more simple, you know, for people to understand and make it more simple for both the patient and the the clinician side to understand together?
Kevin Walker:So that's been amazing, and I think that, the ASCP podcast that I do with Jaren is Yep. Kind of the other part of my my passion there. And when I was going to Chad and Tom, when we're talking about doing something together for ASCP New Frontiers, it was really along the lines of, you know, what's available right now for clinicians, pharmacists, obviously, in particular? How can they get reimbursed, and what could we be missing in the technology space? So we're we're really trying to bring in there's so many concepts coming at us at such rapid speed that the new frontier and the nerdy Star Trek y kind of feel to it is exactly how we felt.
Kevin Walker:You know, we're going light speed into these new reimbursement pathways. We're going light speed into these new technologies that are hitting us. And so we're bringing in people like we had Brian Anderson on the other day who's the CEO of CHI. Brian is a brilliant, you know, gentleman that was very gracious with his time to visit with Jared and I and really describe from the coalition of Health AI who's really trying to standardize the safety and efficacy of health AI throughout all of health systems and working with folks like, Stanford University and the Mayo Clinic and Google and Amazon and a bunch of startups. How do they unify things and make it more approachable, and how do they make it more standardized and safe, you know, for these institutions and for patients to leverage?
Kevin Walker:He's on there and a number of other individuals that are really able to help the pharmacy community keep up with so many things that are coming their direction. Now they have a, you know, a podcast, one of the podcasts that they could tune into to be able to get some of that info. But why do I do it, you know, in general? Is it just because Kevin likes the sound of his own voice? Definitely not.
Kevin Walker:Like, I am not the smartest guy in the room. I love being amongst a lot of other very smart, brilliant people and getting information from them so that I can apply that to my own situations and circumstances. I've just been very blessed to get to know a lot of wonderful people. And so being able to give the mic to them and try to ask them some probing questions that'll hopefully be able to help others out there in the community to serve their patients better and to understand the directions we're going in health care is is really the reason behind it.
Justin Cole:Yeah. So many great things there, Kevin. Today, I'm breaking all the podcast rules. I'm trying to talk about too many things. I'm gonna go in so many directions.
Justin Cole:But I do wanna shift because I find this fascinating, and that is, currently you serve as the Vice President of Health Care Partnerships for Performance Kitchen, which focuses on medically tailored meals. And so I'd love to let you tell our listeners a little bit about that. Maybe give them a teaser. Why is this such an important thing for pharmacists and others to be familiar with? The idea of medically tailored meals.
Kevin Walker:Yeah. I think, Justin, that that really fits into the whole holistic approach in optimizing drug regimens. Right? What what are we trying to do in health care? Are we trying to give someone a pill, or are we trying to get someone better or have them live a healthier life?
Kevin Walker:And so when when looking at, you know, what's going to happen in the future when it comes to, the food as medicine space, I can't think of a better profession than pharmacy to be at the head of that table. And so when I had the opportunity to join that team and start, you know, really building the inroads for us to realize what's the capacity of pharmacy to take on this, quote, unquote, new space, which, you know, is so fitting for us, I was really excited because I think there are a lot of very brilliant pharmacists out there that want to be more intimate with patient care, and I think that food is medicine and medically tailored meals is exactly the space that needs to go. Tons of development just ahead of me when it comes to how do I create some inroads, how do I educate, etcetera. But what a great way for us to really serve our patients in nonpharmaceutical capacities. And I know that, you know, listeners out there, I know you're a bunch of drug haters just like me that we're trying to get our patients off of drugs and medicines.
Kevin Walker:And what better way than sticking to some of these lifestyle modalities that we can do better than just saying, you just need to eat a few more vegetables. It's just it's just not good enough. And so we have to find ways to make it easier for patients and clinicians to do so.
Justin Cole:Well, that's good stuff. You know what? Maybe we're gonna have to have another podcast on this idea because there's just so much to explore. Kevin, I wanna ask you a few more personal questions because it's clear you wear a lot of hats and you have a high capacity. There's no doubt about that.
Justin Cole:So I'd love to know, how do you stay grounded? How do you keep track of all the different things that you're trying to do as a health care leader and innovator, from podcasting to consulting, which you have do have your own consulting business as well that you manage, being a vice president for for this company. Tell me, how do you do it all?
Kevin Walker:Yeah. It's a great question. Well, one, I think it helps to be wildly blessed with an incredible wife. So I we have two young boys and having Savannah, I mean, she's just she's absolutely incredible. She's so much smarter than me, and she just makes my life so much easier to be able to do a lot of these things and follow a lot of my passions because she's taking care of so many things and is just such a such an incredible woman that I I cannot be more thankful that the Lord gave me her.
Kevin Walker:I'm sure he was like, there's a knucklehead in Kevin. If I can just get Savannah with him, then he'll maybe he'll do a couple good things in his life. But but, yeah, that's part of it is just really being surrounded by incredible people. I I mentioned Donna Bartlett already for that for that podcast that we've had for what's going on two it's gonna be two years here really soon. And, you know, just the humility, you know, in all of those individuals to be able to connect the dots with me.
Kevin Walker:A lot of these companies that have believed in me over the years and have, recognized maybe some of the gifts that God's given me and also some of the opportunities to network, that he's given me as well has been just extraordinary. And so I think that always having the ability to to adjust and stay humble through those adjustments has been been a big part of it, Justin. Like, and it hasn't come without, you know, pains along the way. Like, some some ideas and some hopes and some some attempts have failed, you know, really miserably. Like, they have not not been successful.
Kevin Walker:But within those, I think it's just like being a dad. Like, sometimes I don't have a a great dad day. Like, I don't feel like I was the dad that I wanna be for my boys. Right? But, thankfully, they have grace, and God has grace for me.
Kevin Walker:And he also has lessons for me. And the exact same thing through all these experiences I've had over the years and all these different positions or hats I've worn is there's so many lessons within the failures and successes over the over that time that's really helped me to to stay grounded with, okay. Here could be realistic expectations. Here are the things that I have the bandwidth to be able to dabble in. Here are the things that I need support on.
Kevin Walker:And so being, you know, realistic on what my capacities are, what my abilities are, and what I need help with overall, has allowed me to do a lot more things than I'd ever be capable of doing myself. And so that's been just a huge blessing of having incredible extraordinary people around me, not only the folks that I've been working directly with, but folks like you, Justin, that they've been just wonderful supports to me over the years and just a network that has been very giving of their time and their talents to me. And, you know, if anything, I just always hope to be able to give that back. Well,
Justin Cole:it's clear, Kevin, every time I talk to you that humility, regardless of whatever position or place that you've been blessed to serve in, is there. And it's refreshing to see a leader. And so I'm thankful to the Lord for that and for just the opportunity to rub shoulders with you, even in a podcast. So let's talk a little bit more. It's clear also to our listeners the way you talk is different.
Justin Cole:Your faith is important to you. So I'd love to give you an opportunity just to talk a bit about how that drives you as someone who's trying to be an agent of positive change in our health care system.
Kevin Walker:Yeah. It's a great question and and my favorite question by far. I mean, I think that I had an experience that I was working with a business development, group out of Washington State, and I remember we were going over, like, my LinkedIn profile at one time. And on my LinkedIn profile, very very prominently, I've I've put a bible verse on there. And I'll rotate that bible verse over time that really connects with what I'm trying to do as a human being.
Kevin Walker:And the advice from this group was to remove that and was to remove any mention of Jesus or Christ inside of, you know, what I was doing or thinking about inside of my business aspects of life. And I try to, with the most kindness and humility, tell them that that will never happen. Like, that will always be fourth and center for me. And the reason is, you know, there's folks with all kinds of different faiths that I'm very close with, that are very close friends. But when it comes to the aspects that drive me as a human being and try to make me do the right things on a daily basis to help people and keep a north star, you know, those values and that center on knowing who my lord and savior is and the things that he expects from me on a regular basis and the forgiveness he's given me and the blessings he's given me, is something I always want to be showcased, when it comes to any any personal interaction.
Kevin Walker:Like, there's nothing there's nothing I will accomplish in this world that will be greater than me having even the smallest influence on someone's relationship with Christ. And so that that's always been a a forefront aspect for me in my life, and I I try not to be there's two different approaches, I think, to you know, and there's lots of approaches to everything in life, but you can be pushy, like, with your faith and really, you know, like, here here's me. Here's my lord. Here's the things that I need. I just I just try to be real with it.
Kevin Walker:Like, just this is how I walk on a regular basis and not hide it. Right? And I I think that that is received in a really beautiful way from people even that disagree with, you know, your your beliefs is they can respect that you're being genuine, you know, as a human being and that your relationship that you have with with God is something that is genuinely felt through you. And so that's my approach, and that's been, the blessing that God has just given me and and having that that conviction, you know, that he's put inside of me that there is there's no way I'm taking that lamp and hiding it under a bush. You know?
Kevin Walker:I always want it to be on top of a hill. Even if my lamp is tiny and my light is very, very small and insignificant, I still want it to be shown and showcased because that's what matters the most for me.
Justin Cole:Well, those hills are high in Washington, but keep that light shining bright, Kevin. It's great to talk with you and and just learn about your journey. I hope that listeners, you are inspired to not only think about little ways in which you can help to be an innovator in your space, but you can think about ways to leverage technology or even things like medically tailored meals to really recapture the care of the human beings are privileged to care for.
Justin Cole:So, Kevin, it's always a pleasure to talk with you. Thanks for joining me today. And I may have to ask you to come on again, so we appreciate it greatly.
Kevin Walker:I love it. Thanks so much, Justin. Always appreciate your time. Thanks, everybody, for listening.
Justin Cole:You have been listening to DISRxUPT, a podcast from the Cedarville University Center for Pharmacy Innovation. If you enjoyed listening today, please subscribe and share this podcast with others. Thanks for listening.