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From the subtleties of typography to the emotional impact of color, and the way everyday objects influence our lives, our guests share their unique perspectives on the power of design. Through candid interviews, we’ll get a closer look at the challenges they’ve faced, the breakthroughs they’ve had, and how design is not just about aesthetics, but about problem-solving, communication, and making an impact.
Join host Rae, as Type Speaks aims to inspire, inform, and showcase the voices behind the visuals.
This podcast is supported by WEGL 91.1 FM, Auburn University’s radio station. weglfm.com
00:00:02 [Speaker 1]
Welcome into Type Speaks.
00:00:04 [Speaker 1]
The show where I dive into the stories, struggles, and sparks of inspiration behind great design.
00:00:09 [Speaker 1]
I'm your host, Ray, and I'm gonna be pulling back the curtain on the creative process.
00:00:13 [Speaker 1]
But not just the work itself, but the people who make it happen.
00:00:17 [Speaker 1]
Each episode, I sit down with a different creative mind to uncover how they think and everything in between.
00:00:23 [Speaker 1]
So if you're curious about the why behind design and the stories of the people shaping our world one idea at a time, you're in the right place.
00:00:45 [Speaker 1]
So hello.
00:00:46 [Speaker 1]
Welcome into Type Speaks.
00:00:47 [Speaker 1]
This will be the eleventh episode.
00:00:50 [Speaker 1]
We have passed the double digits to, like, truly the teens.
00:00:55 [Speaker 1]
So maybe we'll have a little bit of a of a punk kind of emo phase.
00:00:59 [Speaker 1]
Who knows?
00:01:00 [Speaker 1]
But, today, I am joined with, Nolan Straws, a designer, writer, and educator that specializes in branding, lettering, and cultural design.
00:01:09 [Speaker 1]
Your work blends research strategy and visual craft, spanning identities across systems, editorial projects, and political campaigns.
00:01:17 [Speaker 1]
You've also, coauthored a book on lettering, published essays on designs, and has taught at the Maryland Institute College.
00:01:24 [Speaker 1]
Is that all sound good?
00:01:26 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:01:27 [Speaker 2]
It does.
00:01:27 [Speaker 2]
Awesome.
00:01:28 [Speaker 1]
No.
00:01:28 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:01:29 [Speaker 1]
I've learned I used to read a lot more of people's bios, and then a lot of people can feel be uncomfortable with that, and I think it's kind of interesting.
00:01:37 [Speaker 1]
So I've cut trying to shorten it, so I wanna make sure I'm getting everything in there.
00:01:40 [Speaker 2]
That's all very true.
00:01:43 [Speaker 1]
Awesome.
00:01:44 [Speaker 1]
So I first start off, like I do with every designer, is asking how you got started in design or art or kind of the creative field in general.
00:01:53 [Speaker 2]
When I was in, like, elementary, middle school, I really wanted to be like like a comic book artist, and I thought, like, that's what I'm gonna be is a comic book artist.
00:02:01 [Speaker 2]
And then in middle school, my brother had a subscription, like, to Rolling Stone magazine, and this was in, like, the mid nineties.
00:02:09 [Speaker 2]
And at the time, they were doing these beautiful, like, opening spreads on their, like, feature articles where they would have, like, a beautiful portrait that was either, like, a photograph or a really high end, like, a illustration.
00:02:23 [Speaker 2]
And then on the facing page, they would have some, like, in typography or, like, piece of lettering.
00:02:29 [Speaker 2]
And I'd never seen anything like that because I had only ever seen, like, Newsweek and Time and, like, these magazines that all, like, kinda look the same.
00:02:38 [Speaker 2]
And this was, like, you can do that, like, with letters, and they'll print it, like, in a magazine.
00:02:44 [Speaker 2]
And so that got me, like, thinking about that, like, letters can be more than just, like, a logo.
00:02:52 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:02:52 [Speaker 2]
And then at the same time, they used to do this thing, like, in magazines where they'd have, like, a two page spread, and it listed all of these different catalogs
00:03:02 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:03:02 [Speaker 2]
Like, from cool companies.
00:03:04 [Speaker 2]
And then it had, like, a little postcard, and you could tear that postcard out and check off catalogs, like, that you wanted.
00:03:10 [Speaker 2]
And I checked off, like, two or three, and they were all, like, super cool.
00:03:15 [Speaker 2]
But the one that blew my mind like, it's middle school.
00:03:18 [Speaker 2]
I'm just really getting serious with, like, the music, like, that I'm into.
00:03:23 [Speaker 2]
And there was a catalog for a gallery in San Francisco that was all, like, concert posters.
00:03:30 [Speaker 2]
And, like, so I get that.
00:03:32 [Speaker 2]
And it's my introduction, like, to psychedelic art.
00:03:34 [Speaker 2]
So all of the great, like, Fillmore, like, concert poster artists, but also of the guys in the nineties who were doing the, like, revival of, like, screen print Yeah.
00:03:48 [Speaker 2]
Posters.
00:03:48 [Speaker 2]
So, like, Frank Kozick and Coop and, like, Lindsey Coon.
00:03:51 [Speaker 2]
And so Rolling Stone plus that catalog, I was suddenly, like, I don't wanna be a comic book artist.
00:03:57 [Speaker 2]
I wanna be whatever these guys are.
00:04:00 [Speaker 2]
And so flash forward a couple years, I'm, like, in high school.
00:04:05 [Speaker 2]
I have friends, like, playing in punk bands.
00:04:07 [Speaker 2]
Like, I joined a punk band.
00:04:09 [Speaker 2]
I'm going, like, to punk shows, hate the flyers that the local guy, like, that he's making.
00:04:15 [Speaker 2]
And it's like, for three years, I've, like, been absorbing, like, what, like, Frank Kozick and all of, like, these other people have been doing.
00:04:23 [Speaker 2]
And so I just, like, approached the local promoter and, like, just said, hey.
00:04:30 [Speaker 2]
Like, I can make flyers.
00:04:31 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:04:31 [Speaker 2]
Like, here's some samples.
00:04:33 [Speaker 2]
Like, I made these, like, sample flyers.
00:04:35 [Speaker 2]
They're so embarrassing.
00:04:37 [Speaker 2]
And he said, sure.
00:04:39 [Speaker 2]
And so, like, so I was, like, hand drawing or, like, or I was doing, like, some collage, like, cut and paste.
00:04:46 [Speaker 2]
At the same time, I was, like, making a fanzine.
00:04:50 [Speaker 2]
And this is all, like, photocopied.
00:04:52 [Speaker 2]
It's just black and white.
00:04:54 [Speaker 2]
It's all handmade.
00:04:55 [Speaker 2]
The fanzine columns of text were typed on a computer, but it was, but it was my mom's, like, a MS DOS.
00:05:04 [Speaker 2]
So all very, like, lo fi.
00:05:06 [Speaker 2]
Like, it was printed on a dot matrix printer.
00:05:09 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:05:11 [Speaker 2]
I'm not even sure if you know what that is.
00:05:12 [Speaker 1]
I mean, people use it.
00:05:13 [Speaker 1]
It's a style now.
00:05:14 [Speaker 1]
People are like, dot matrix effects.
00:05:17 [Speaker 2]
Right.
00:05:17 [Speaker 2]
Right.
00:05:18 [Speaker 2]
And, like, I didn't want that, but I was stuck with it.
00:05:21 [Speaker 2]
And so I'm doing all this, like, punk, like, DIY stuff.
00:05:24 [Speaker 2]
I don't even know, like, the DIY, like, that that's a thing.
00:05:27 [Speaker 1]
It is.
00:05:28 [Speaker 2]
I just Oh.
00:05:29 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:05:29 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:05:29 [Speaker 2]
Like but I just, like, stumbled into it.
00:05:31 [Speaker 2]
And then, like, I go off to college and, like, I finally have access to screen printing.
00:05:37 [Speaker 2]
I hooked up with a local promoter there, and I was, like, his intern.
00:05:41 [Speaker 2]
And at first, he was having me screen print his designs, which were not great.
00:05:46 [Speaker 2]
They were and, like, when I said, you know, I can design stuff too.
00:05:50 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:05:50 [Speaker 2]
And so I started, like, taking these, like, ideas, which had, like, been black and white and, like, turning them into two, three, like, four color Yeah.
00:05:59 [Speaker 2]
Like, screen prints and doing them mostly for the local punk bar, but, like, occasionally for concerts happening at the college, like, where I went, which was the Maryland, like, Institute College of Art.
00:06:14 [Speaker 2]
That poster work that I started doing, like, in college, like, really set the scene for, like, my career.
00:06:21 [Speaker 2]
And even now over twenty years later, I have people who reference some of those posters.
00:06:27 [Speaker 2]
Like, oh, hey.
00:06:28 [Speaker 2]
Could you do something like and it's like, I did that when I was a sophomore in college.
00:06:33 [Speaker 2]
But, yes, I could still do that.
00:06:35 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:06:35 [Speaker 2]
I could just do it a little better now.
00:06:37 [Speaker 1]
My heart always goes out to to, like, the punk scene and DIY scene.
00:06:42 [Speaker 1]
I just did two posters for my friends bands for this weekend.
00:06:45 [Speaker 1]
Oh, nice.
00:06:46 [Speaker 1]
I've seen that start often, especially with, like, music, seeing those flyers on the walls and being like, I wanna do that.
00:06:53 [Speaker 2]
What I love about punk rock is that, like, you can't just walk up to, like, the show promoter, like, to say, hey.
00:06:59 [Speaker 2]
Do you need posters?
00:07:00 [Speaker 2]
And they usually hate making them, like, themselves, and so they're happy to have somebody who will do it for cheap.
00:07:08 [Speaker 1]
Coffee free, cough cough?
00:07:10 [Speaker 2]
Well, yeah.
00:07:11 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:07:11 [Speaker 2]
Exactly.
00:07:12 [Speaker 2]
Exactly.
00:07:12 [Speaker 2]
I mean, I got into the shows, like, for free, and in high school, like, that was huge.
00:07:16 [Speaker 2]
So, like, a lot of stuff from punk rock, like, a little part of, like, my career now as far as how it shapes, like, how I think about clients, how I think about, like, the work, how I think about, like, community, like, accessibility, and screen printing, like, even.
00:07:34 [Speaker 2]
But this week, I've been designing, like, some animations for this big high-tech, like, company.
00:07:40 [Speaker 2]
The president is going, like, to Northern Europe to speak, like, to world leaders, like, in a couple days.
00:07:46 [Speaker 2]
But as I'm designing explanatory graphics, I'm still thinking in ways, like, that I was thinking when I was first learning, like, how to screen print.
00:07:57 [Speaker 2]
I'm thinking about, like, layers and, like, thinking ahead, like, to the end use and, like, how, like, that impacts, like, what I can do.
00:08:05 [Speaker 2]
Punk rock and screen printing really, to this day, are, like, foundational, like, to my work.
00:08:12 [Speaker 1]
This is, like, twice now that's been, like, oh, yeah.
00:08:14 [Speaker 1]
That's exactly what happened to me.
00:08:16 [Speaker 1]
I worked at a print shop, and I do posters for my friend's bands.
00:08:19 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:08:20 [Speaker 1]
Not uncommon, I feel like.
00:08:21 [Speaker 1]
It's strange because the 1% of graphic designers and percent of them have this life path that comes from DIY music scene.
00:08:29 [Speaker 1]
Because you don't realize how much that overlaps with print shops until you actually work there.
00:08:33 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:08:34 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:08:34 [Speaker 1]
Kind of talking about you you kinda mentioned work you're doing now and also pulling back the work that you did when you were younger.
00:08:40 [Speaker 1]
How would you say, like, your process has changed over the years from working, of course, small and now working with these huge projects?
00:08:47 [Speaker 2]
In some ways, it's changed a lot.
00:08:49 [Speaker 2]
And in some ways, it hasn't changed at all.
00:08:51 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:08:52 [Speaker 2]
When I was first doing stuff, like, in high school, it's just like, hey.
00:08:56 [Speaker 2]
What looks cool?
00:08:57 [Speaker 2]
What would get me excited to go stand in this, like, small filthy room and listen to, like, mostly bad music for two hours, but it's gonna make it seem cool.
00:09:07 [Speaker 2]
I was still definitely holding on, like, to just, like, just make it look cool or, like, oh, I have, like, a visual reference to this thing because that kinda ties in to what, like, the band is doing.
00:09:19 [Speaker 2]
But what I really started doing was, like, listening, like, to the lyrics and trying, like, to pull out, like, is there a particular line that I can use as inspiration for, like, some imagery, or what's their overall, like, vibe?
00:09:35 [Speaker 2]
This band, The Locust, their sound is very harsh.
00:09:39 [Speaker 2]
Like, it's very grating.
00:09:40 [Speaker 2]
It's in your face.
00:09:42 [Speaker 2]
So, like, when I made a poster, like, for them, it's like, how can I visually like, how can I make the poster look how they sound?
00:09:50 [Speaker 2]
And so it's almost like I found this, like, bright, bright, bright glossy, like, orange paper and then hand lettered it in this very, like, sort of rigid, like, in rhythmic way, and then printed that, like, over the top in this, like, screaming, like, pale blue.
00:10:06 [Speaker 2]
And so it's, like, these, like, vibrating colors, all of these, like, hard corners and edges.
00:10:12 [Speaker 2]
And so it was visually as harsh, like, as, like, their sound was.
00:10:17 [Speaker 2]
That sort of mentality of, like, what can I pull out from the source and, like, embody that within, like, the design or within, like, the concept behind, like, the design?
00:10:31 [Speaker 2]
Like, that is, like, a constant like, to this day, I feel like I've just gotten better and, like, more, like, nuanced with it.
00:10:40 [Speaker 2]
Near you, like a Waverly, I'm working on the branding for a new, like, a wine bar that's also an, like, event space.
00:10:49 [Speaker 2]
So, like, with Waverly, that town, thanks to Standard Deluxe, like, because of them, like, that small town is, like, associated, like, with vintage, like, retro throwback type, like, imagery and feel.
00:11:05 [Speaker 2]
And you see that reflected, like, to varying, like, degrees in other businesses, but they each have, like, their own flavor.
00:11:14 [Speaker 2]
And so, like, for this wine bar, to feel like it belongs, like, in Waverly, it had, like, to reference history, like, somehow.
00:11:23 [Speaker 2]
It can't feel like Standard Deluxe.
00:11:25 [Speaker 2]
It can't feel like the bakery or, like, the antique store.
00:11:30 [Speaker 2]
And so I was looking at the history of graphics and typography, like, for wine and came across one of my favorite things, stencil type.
00:11:40 [Speaker 2]
Like, it's famously still used, like, on port bottles.
00:11:44 [Speaker 2]
It used to be on crates.
00:11:45 [Speaker 2]
It used to be on barrels.
00:11:46 [Speaker 2]
It still, like, sometimes is.
00:11:49 [Speaker 2]
I looked to my big book, like, collection, ended up, like, making, like, a custom stencil type logo, that, like, sort of blended, like, influences, like, from Europe, where all the wine, like, comes from, like, where most of it does, and with, like, American, like, industrial products stenciling, like, of, like, the nineteenth century.
00:12:13 [Speaker 2]
And so, like, it's very, like, appropriate for that town because, like, it's drawing on history, but it's not doing it how like, the other businesses are.
00:12:23 [Speaker 2]
It's doing it, like, in a way that makes sense to their specific context.
00:12:28 [Speaker 2]
For your teachers, like, they're listening, they're gonna hate this next part.
00:12:32 [Speaker 1]
There's been many things said that I think my professors may may be like, right, don't take that's not what we taught you.
00:12:41 [Speaker 2]
And maybe a lot of my peers will also either not like like or stuff.
00:12:47 [Speaker 2]
But these days, I tend to only show clients, like, two options.
00:12:51 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:12:51 [Speaker 2]
That's been a big change for most of my career.
00:12:54 [Speaker 2]
Like, I did, like, the traditional.
00:12:56 [Speaker 2]
Here's three or four, sometimes even five options.
00:12:58 [Speaker 2]
For some clients, yes, you have to do that.
00:13:01 [Speaker 2]
I mean, at the start of the year, I showed, like, this one client, like, five options.
00:13:06 [Speaker 2]
Like, they were complicated, like, sort of reasons, like, for that.
00:13:09 [Speaker 2]
But, typically, I show clients, like, two options now because I found it makes it easier for the client to decide.
00:13:18 [Speaker 2]
Like, you tell people it's a or like, it's b.
00:13:21 [Speaker 2]
It's left, like, or it's right.
00:13:23 [Speaker 2]
It's off, like, or it's on.
00:13:26 [Speaker 2]
That's a very easy, like, and clear decision to make.
00:13:30 [Speaker 2]
And a lot of people who are clients for design, particularly, like, for branding, it's the first time they have hired a creative person.
00:13:42 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:13:43 [Speaker 2]
And so, like, they see, like, that first option.
00:13:45 [Speaker 2]
Oh, like, I see how I could be that.
00:13:48 [Speaker 2]
And then they see, like, that second option.
00:13:50 [Speaker 2]
I see how like, I could be that.
00:13:51 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:13:52 [Speaker 2]
And they see that third option.
00:13:53 [Speaker 2]
Oh, wait.
00:13:55 [Speaker 2]
You mean I could be something else?
00:13:57 [Speaker 2]
You know, that gets me thinking of all these other things I could be.
00:14:00 [Speaker 2]
And suddenly, they're going off the rails, and small business owners, like, and entrepreneurs, like, are brilliant at what they do, but they're not always, like, visual creatives.
00:14:14 [Speaker 2]
When you start giving them, like, too many options, it triggers this reaction in a lot of people where they start trying to think creatively.
00:14:23 [Speaker 2]
And things can go really off the rails then, and I've just seen I've experienced too many times where some client starts thinking, I've got the idea now, and then three weeks later, they're frustrated with the outcome.
00:14:37 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:14:37 [Speaker 2]
But it's because, well, you stepped into my role.
00:14:41 [Speaker 2]
In giving them two options, it really clarifies things for them, and it clarifies things for me.
00:14:47 [Speaker 2]
And then here's another thing that your teachers are really gonna hate.
00:14:51 [Speaker 2]
95% of the time, my clients pick my very first idea.
00:14:56 [Speaker 2]
People always say, oh, like, your first idea is like your worst idea.
00:15:00 [Speaker 2]
You need to make 50 sketches.
00:15:03 [Speaker 2]
You need to make good sketches.
00:15:04 [Speaker 2]
You need to thumbnail 5,000 times.
00:15:07 [Speaker 2]
Sure.
00:15:07 [Speaker 2]
Maybe when you're starting, it's like training wheels.
00:15:11 [Speaker 2]
I've been doing this for so long now that I've gotten really good at listening between the lines of what my clients players are saying.
00:15:21 [Speaker 2]
And usually, the very first idea that I have, which sometimes I have during our first kickoff meeting, is almost always, like, what they pick now.
00:15:33 [Speaker 2]
And so it's also instance or for that reason, it's not worth it for me to sit around and try to come up with, like, well, let me come up with two or three other concepts, like, that are weak.
00:15:45 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:15:48 [Speaker 2]
If there's this one idea like, again, I think this comes from the fact that I've done it so many times that I know what, like, to listen for.
00:15:57 [Speaker 2]
Most of the clients I work with, they're often in spaces that I'm, like, engaged in as a consumer, like like, as a fan or as someone who is, like, just interested in it.
00:16:09 [Speaker 2]
And so I come in with a pretty deep baseline knowledge of their world.
00:16:16 [Speaker 2]
And then after hearing, like, just a few things from them, I can often say, here's what it is.
00:16:24 [Speaker 2]
Now is it sometimes wrong?
00:16:27 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:16:27 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:16:28 [Speaker 2]
But, again, almost like, it's been crazy, like, for the last three to four years.
00:16:33 [Speaker 2]
Almost every time, it's my first idea, like, the client's pick.
00:16:38 [Speaker 2]
Sorry, teachers.
00:16:40 [Speaker 1]
I actually had a question about that, but you answered it.
00:16:43 [Speaker 1]
It was like, how many iterations do you typically do?
00:16:46 [Speaker 1]
So
00:16:47 [Speaker 2]
Well, so, like, with iterations, it's interesting.
00:16:51 [Speaker 2]
There used to be, like, this understanding that, like, this is the first round.
00:16:55 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:16:56 [Speaker 2]
You give me feedback, and then, like, we fix it up, and we hammer it out, and, like, we dial it in and get it just right.
00:17:04 [Speaker 2]
I've experienced two or three times recently where clients have said to me, well, can I give feedback?
00:17:11 [Speaker 1]
My clients are not afraid to give feedback.
00:17:13 [Speaker 1]
I don't know what clients you're getting, but I want them.
00:17:19 [Speaker 2]
Well, and it makes me wonder.
00:17:21 [Speaker 2]
It's like, are some of my peers, like, telling them, this is the design.
00:17:27 [Speaker 2]
That's it.
00:17:28 [Speaker 2]
You can't change it, which is mind blowing to me because, like, I'm smart.
00:17:32 [Speaker 2]
Like, I'm talented.
00:17:34 [Speaker 2]
I have really solid ideas, but it's not my baby.
00:17:37 [Speaker 2]
It's their baby.
00:17:39 [Speaker 2]
And, like, they're going like, to unlike some things, like, that I'm just not no matter how great, like, that kickoff meeting is or how great, like, my research is.
00:17:48 [Speaker 2]
Client feedback is great.
00:17:50 [Speaker 2]
Not all the time.
00:17:51 [Speaker 2]
But but a lot of the times, like luckily, I mostly work with really smart people, and I love working, like, with really smart people.
00:18:02 [Speaker 2]
Now I said, like, a lot of clients, like, have been hesitant, like, to get feedback.
00:18:07 [Speaker 2]
I've been working all week or for the last two weeks, like, with a client who loves giving feedback, and they give a lot of it, and it's very detailed.
00:18:16 [Speaker 2]
But it's always right.
00:18:18 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:18:19 [Speaker 2]
Or it's almost always right.
00:18:20 [Speaker 2]
And when it's not, they're smart enough, like, that I can say to them, I see what you're trying to do, but here's why that's wrong.
00:18:27 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:18:28 [Speaker 2]
And, like, when they say, okay.
00:18:29 [Speaker 2]
Cool.
00:18:30 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:18:33 [Speaker 2]
So I've been, like, mostly, like, very lucky, especially in this last year where I've gone, like, freelance and gone out, like, on my own again.
00:18:43 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:18:43 [Speaker 2]
But it's because, you know, I've been doing this for twenty five years or so that people, like, sort of, like, inherently trust me because I have this massive, like, body of work that says you can trust me.
00:18:59 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:18:59 [Speaker 1]
Part of that was also kind of another question I had.
00:19:01 [Speaker 1]
On your website, one of the main things was, like, I don't you don't do exactly what the client asks all the time.
00:19:07 [Speaker 1]
You kind of find that spot where you're like, this is actually the right the rider direction.
00:19:11 [Speaker 1]
When do you decide to do that?
00:19:13 [Speaker 1]
How do you handle the a client that may be like, no.
00:19:15 [Speaker 1]
I don't wanna do that.
00:19:17 [Speaker 2]
One of my favorite clients, just, like, a week ago, really wanted me to change this element of, like, this design that it didn't, like, ruin it, but it changed this one detail that took out the conceptual strength of it.
00:19:34 [Speaker 2]
I made my case, and, like, they said, can we see it anyway?
00:19:38 [Speaker 2]
And I did it, and I showed it to them, like, side by side, and they picked the one that was what, like, they wanted.
00:19:45 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:19:46 [Speaker 2]
It works totally fine.
00:19:48 [Speaker 2]
Still looks great.
00:19:50 [Speaker 2]
Conceptually, it's just not as strong.
00:19:55 [Speaker 2]
Visually, is it more clear for certain, like, viewers?
00:20:00 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:20:01 [Speaker 2]
And at the end, like, of the day, that's maybe what's most, like, important here.
00:20:08 [Speaker 2]
And so the best, like, that I can do is make a rational rational, irrational, and, like, you're reasonable.
00:20:20 [Speaker 2]
When you push back, like, on a client Mhmm.
00:20:23 [Speaker 2]
You can't just say, well, no.
00:20:25 [Speaker 2]
We're gonna do it this way because that's what I like.
00:20:29 [Speaker 2]
Well, we all have opinions.
00:20:30 [Speaker 2]
Like, their opinion is it shouldn't be
00:20:35 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:20:36 [Speaker 2]
Like, what you like.
00:20:37 [Speaker 2]
So you need to you need, like, to elevate the conversation, like, by not saying this is what I like.
00:20:45 [Speaker 2]
You have to make a rational case for it.
00:20:48 [Speaker 2]
And that case and the rational case could be made for, like, conceptual reasons, for, like, for legibility reasons, for, like, reasons.
00:21:01 [Speaker 2]
It could be made, like, for business reasons.
00:21:03 [Speaker 2]
Like, there have been clients, like, that I like I've said, I hear what you're saying, but if we change that font or if we change that color, it doesn't match up with the strategy.
00:21:15 [Speaker 2]
Strategy, like, is to, like, sell light bulbs.
00:21:18 [Speaker 2]
Well, we're not gonna make the logo, like, all black.
00:21:23 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:21:23 [Speaker 2]
Like, I think, like, with pushing back on clients, you really have to, like, arm yourself with you have to arm strong, like, a reasoning.
00:21:34 [Speaker 2]
If you're just making the design because it looks cool, that's gonna be hard to fight for.
00:21:41 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:21:43 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:21:44 [Speaker 1]
But, also, it looks cool.
00:21:47 [Speaker 1]
Okay?
00:21:48 [Speaker 2]
Well yeah.
00:21:49 [Speaker 2]
Oh, hey.
00:21:50 [Speaker 2]
Totally get it.
00:21:51 [Speaker 1]
Hey.
00:21:51 [Speaker 1]
My professors won't wanna hear me say that, but sometimes things look cool.
00:21:57 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:21:57 [Speaker 2]
Sometimes they do.
00:21:58 [Speaker 2]
When I taught, I actually banned the word cool from critique, because it doesn't mean anything.
00:22:05 [Speaker 2]
Because it means something different, like, to everyone and in every context.
00:22:09 [Speaker 1]
I have a professor who was on the show earlier, Robert Finkel.
00:22:13 [Speaker 1]
I'm sure he's listening.
00:22:15 [Speaker 1]
But he's always he's every single time, we're like, oh, I like this thing.
00:22:19 [Speaker 1]
He's like, but why?
00:22:21 [Speaker 1]
But why do you like it?
00:22:23 [Speaker 2]
I like this teacher.
00:22:24 [Speaker 2]
I've never met him, and I already like him because it's all about why.
00:22:30 [Speaker 1]
I wanted to ask this earlier in the conversation, but I didn't wanna interrupt.
00:22:34 [Speaker 1]
Researching the history of a waiver, like, wine bar and, like, looking at historical and the cultural, like, artifacts and things that would come together but also separate it from other things around it.
00:22:44 [Speaker 1]
How do you kind of integrate your findings about culture or, like, audience into your ideas?
00:22:50 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:22:51 [Speaker 2]
One thing I always try not to do is just copy.
00:22:54 [Speaker 2]
And I think one thing that I think one of the strengths of my work is that I'll look, like, to the past Mhmm.
00:23:03 [Speaker 2]
But I won't necessarily, like, just rep.
00:23:06 [Speaker 2]
Look.
00:23:06 [Speaker 2]
I think I am always keeping, like, the end use front of mind, and I think that also, like, goes back to the punk flyers.
00:23:16 [Speaker 2]
It's like, I love this band.
00:23:18 [Speaker 2]
A lot of people haven't heard of them.
00:23:20 [Speaker 2]
How cool can I make this look so that someone will, like, wanna check it out?
00:23:26 [Speaker 2]
And so, yes, that's me.
00:23:27 [Speaker 2]
Like, what do I think, like, looks cool?
00:23:29 [Speaker 2]
But, also, it's a mix of what does the band sound like?
00:23:34 [Speaker 2]
Who like, is their current audience?
00:23:36 [Speaker 2]
What aesthetics does the dance like?
00:23:39 [Speaker 2]
How could I take, like, all those things, bring it all together to, like, like, to appeal to, like, new people?
00:23:48 [Speaker 2]
I just thought of a great, like, example.
00:23:51 [Speaker 2]
My old company, post typography, had branded a small brewery, like, outside of Philadelphia called, like, two s p, like, a brewing company.
00:24:02 [Speaker 2]
And after about five years, they wanted, like, to rebrand.
00:24:08 [Speaker 2]
And at that point, I would solo, like, by myself, we had closed post typography.
00:24:15 [Speaker 2]
Like, they basically said, here's what we have seen and heard from consumers that they like.
00:24:22 [Speaker 2]
And at that point, they also had, like, an in house person, like, part time.
00:24:28 [Speaker 2]
And, like, they had been tweaking flyers and stuff or, like, social media graphics, like, sort of based on, like, what people had been responding to.
00:24:38 [Speaker 2]
And they had, like, identified people like this stuff, they don't like this stuff, and we wanna, like like, to emphasize our geographic, like, location more, Like, being, like, from, like, Southeast Pennsylvania.
00:24:55 [Speaker 2]
I kind of, like, did a survey of all of their work, like, that I was, like, familiar with both what I had made, what their in house person, like, had made.
00:25:06 [Speaker 2]
Took a look at, like, how, like, the beer market, like, had changed.
00:25:12 [Speaker 2]
They're from, like, a very, like, blue collar, like, type of area, like, just outside of Philly, like, that has a bunch of, like, factories and, and and it has, like, a long history of that.
00:25:25 [Speaker 2]
And our branding was already, like, inspired by that.
00:25:29 [Speaker 2]
So how I like to retain that but streamline it so that it better matches the more streamlined look that contemporary craft beer, like, was heading towards.
00:25:42 [Speaker 2]
Taking all that, like, into consideration, then it led to a more streamlined, like, and templated, like, approach that, like, like, had a keystone, like, as like, a subtle, like, background, like, to really signal, like, the weird from Pennsylvania.
00:26:04 [Speaker 2]
And but, like, left room, like, for variation and, like, it used three color, like, three d effect.
00:26:12 [Speaker 2]
It highlighted, like, their mascot more.
00:26:15 [Speaker 2]
That was really, like, this instance of, like, taking client feedback, taking what I'd seen, understanding the context, their audience, understanding the context of the industry, and just smashing all that together.
00:26:33 [Speaker 1]
Again, another question I had.
00:26:34 [Speaker 1]
I wanted to mention earlier, but I don't wanna interrupt.
00:26:37 [Speaker 1]
What kind of mix of analog and digital tools do you typically do, or do you like to just kind of experiment with every new project?
00:26:45 [Speaker 2]
For years.
00:26:46 [Speaker 2]
For years and years.
00:26:48 [Speaker 2]
If there was something hand drawn, like, it was in my work, it was drawn on paper, typically a ballpoint pen on paper Mhmm.
00:26:59 [Speaker 2]
Which is very offensive to some of, like, my designer friends who, like, buy the nicest paper and have, like, the nicest
00:27:06 [Speaker 1]
But it always ends up looking the best, though.
00:27:10 [Speaker 2]
I mean
00:27:11 [Speaker 1]
The ballpoint pen and the copy paper always look better than my expensive pens and expensive paper.
00:27:16 [Speaker 1]
Make that make sense.
00:27:17 [Speaker 2]
Once in a blue moon, the expensive paper and, like, the nicer pens, they have a time and a place.
00:27:25 [Speaker 2]
And I think, like, this is reflective of, like, the punk rock background of, like, it looks better slightly, like, imperfect.
00:27:35 [Speaker 2]
Like, it looks better, like, a little rough, like, at the edges.
00:27:38 [Speaker 2]
Like, up until 2009 or so, everything I did, hand drawn on paper, scanned in, put back together, like, in Photoshop, blah blah blah from there.
00:27:52 [Speaker 2]
And then I got a, like, a Wacom tablet because it's just it's just easier to say.
00:27:58 [Speaker 2]
I've been drawing on, like, a WACM tab very long time now.
00:28:03 [Speaker 2]
And there's times I lament that I don't draw, like, on paper, like, so much anymore.
00:28:09 [Speaker 2]
There are times, though, where even after all even after many, many years, I just can't get what I want, no matter, like, what, like, the brush is.
00:28:23 [Speaker 2]
Like, in Photoshop, sometimes I just gotta break out, like, the copy paper and, like, the closest like, a ballpoint pen or or charcoal pencil or Sharpie and, like, draw it on paper and scan it in or take a photo with my phone.
00:28:46 [Speaker 2]
Bring it into Photoshop, like, then blow, like, the contrast out and Mhmm.
00:28:50 [Speaker 2]
Like, do all the stuff.
00:28:52 [Speaker 2]
There are, like, tons of, like, great brushes out there, but, like, there's just some things that they can't do.
00:28:57 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:28:58 [Speaker 2]
And and there's some things you don't want them to do.
00:29:01 [Speaker 2]
Even though I'm working almost a 100% digitally these days, I'm still drawing a lot of stuff within Photoshop.
00:29:12 [Speaker 2]
Some other analog mixed with digital tools I like is, spray paint.
00:29:18 [Speaker 2]
I think spray paint is, is an under, like, appreciated tool.
00:29:24 [Speaker 2]
You can just get, like, some really beautiful textures out of it.
00:29:29 [Speaker 2]
I've even made some posters, and it's actually, like, kinda one of my faces, like, to make a poster now, is, like, to do, like, a digital print just in black ink on, like, white paper or, like, on paper, but then cut, like, a stencil of art, like, that interacts with, like, the printed part because I don't have access to screen printing, like, currently.
00:29:58 [Speaker 2]
And so, like, this is a way that I can make something that, like, has some texture to it, has, like, like, it has, like, some real ink on it.
00:30:07 [Speaker 2]
And just, like, and it gets back, like, like, to that, like, just DIY handmade, but it's also, like, surprising.
00:30:17 [Speaker 2]
Like, you'd like, you don't see spray paint on posters, like, they're hanging up
00:30:24 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:30:24 [Speaker 2]
Like, at the coffee shop or Yeah.
00:30:26 [Speaker 2]
Or at the or whatever.
00:30:29 [Speaker 2]
And so it has that benefit of of, like, the novelty and having this surprising materiality, when so many posters are just like, here's a glossy, like, a digital print.
00:30:44 [Speaker 2]
Like, oh, wait.
00:30:46 [Speaker 2]
This thing is spray painted?
00:30:47 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:30:49 [Speaker 2]
Like, it just instantly like, it's gonna stand out.
00:30:52 [Speaker 2]
Like, when I was, like, screen printing posters, they were almost never a standard size.
00:30:59 [Speaker 2]
Like, I've printed posters that are, like, seven and three eighths, like, of an inch wide by, like, 21.2 inches tall because that's what size the thing I drew determined I had to cut the paper to.
00:31:14 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:31:15 [Speaker 2]
And that's one thing I love with screen printing.
00:31:20 [Speaker 2]
Like, it's, like, just have to do here's 16 by 20.
00:31:23 [Speaker 2]
Here's 18 by 24.
00:31:24 [Speaker 2]
Here's, I made a poster for a comedian who performed, like, at my college, and I hand cut all, like, of those posters out in the shape of an exclamation point.
00:31:37 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:31:39 [Speaker 2]
Because why not?
00:31:40 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:31:42 [Speaker 1]
Kind of also talking I'm I was gonna say I mentioned earlier, but I don't think I did.
00:31:46 [Speaker 1]
I think I just say that as a transition.
00:31:49 [Speaker 1]
But, I I wanna talk more of your your design writing because you've coauthored a book, and then also you do a lot of, like, essays and stuff about design.
00:31:59 [Speaker 1]
How is kind of writing about design and, like, design theory kind of fed back into your own design practice in a way?
00:32:07 [Speaker 2]
So with design writing, back in 02/2009, my old business partner, Bruce, he and I, wrote a book lettering and type for Princeton, like, a architectural press because we spent an, like, entire year, like, doing that.
00:32:29 [Speaker 2]
We actually did not do much client work, like, in 02/2008, because doing, like, all the research, figuring out what the book, like, was even gonna be, it's a it's a big process.
00:32:43 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:32:45 [Speaker 2]
And then we're both like, that was way too much work, and we stepped away from it, so that we could do things like make money and survive.
00:32:56 [Speaker 2]
But then, in the twenty teens, like like, at some point, like, some editors at, like, the Washington Post, were, like, familiar with our work because we were doing, like, illustrations, like, for the post.
00:33:18 [Speaker 2]
They started asking us, like, to write, like, some articles on political design, like, on campaign logos and things.
00:33:27 [Speaker 2]
We actually wrote the very first, like, article on the groundbreaking, like, branding, like, for AOC.
00:33:36 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:33:38 [Speaker 2]
Like, they contacted us the day, like, that she won, and they said her branding, it was definitely part of it.
00:33:46 [Speaker 2]
No one, like, has written about it.
00:33:48 [Speaker 2]
We wanna publish something in thirty hours.
00:33:50 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:33:51 [Speaker 2]
Can you write something?
00:33:52 [Speaker 2]
And we did.
00:33:54 [Speaker 2]
And through that, we met the people, like, who did the work.
00:33:58 [Speaker 2]
And then, like, a week later, everybody else, like, had written, like, an article on it.
00:34:04 [Speaker 2]
But it it was pretty, like, exciting, like, to be the first.
00:34:08 [Speaker 2]
And because of that article, we actually ended up creating, like, and moderating a panel discussion in, like, DC on political, like, branding.
00:34:23 [Speaker 2]
Like and that was super cool.
00:34:25 [Speaker 2]
And, but in my personal practice, like, when I started my, like, design account, like, on Instagram, I like to not do things how they're supposed to be done.
00:34:39 [Speaker 2]
And so with Instagram, they always want you to have, like, a short caption and, like because it keeps people moving.
00:34:50 [Speaker 2]
It keeps people scrolling so they see, like, a like, more ads.
00:34:56 [Speaker 2]
I like to talk, as you can tell by all of these long winded answers I've been given.
00:35:01 [Speaker 2]
And and and I like people to know, like, that my work has thought, like, behind it, and it has meaning.
00:35:09 [Speaker 2]
It has depth.
00:35:10 [Speaker 2]
And I like to share knowledge.
00:35:14 [Speaker 2]
I like to teach.
00:35:16 [Speaker 2]
And so I started using I made the conscious decision on Instagram.
00:35:24 [Speaker 2]
I'm gonna write the longest captions that it, like, allows, and I'm gonna use this to practice in a better, like, a writer.
00:35:35 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:35:36 [Speaker 2]
And I think it really helped me find, like, my voice and in finding, like, my voice and becoming, like, a better writer and not treating, like, Instagram too preciously and instead viewing it as, like, this lab, I became a stronger writer.
00:35:57 [Speaker 2]
And in becoming a stronger writer, I can talk about, like, my work to clients, like, even better.
00:36:05 [Speaker 2]
I can defend, like, my work, like, when clients, like, have pushback, like, because even though it's just this, like, social media platform and some of my posts are silly, but most are, like, more serious, it's like it's like I've practiced how to, like, eloquently or clearly state, here's what I did.
00:36:33 [Speaker 2]
Here's why.
00:36:35 [Speaker 2]
And and to do so in a way that, like, is educational or is, like, or is, like, informational because I know some designers, when they get pushed back, they get angry.
00:36:51 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:36:52 [Speaker 2]
And if you get angry, like, then you've already lost.
00:36:57 [Speaker 2]
And so in practicing how to state something clearly, then it means in those instances where as a young designer that I might have, like, have, like, gotten angry, now I know how to speak back in this more, like, a mehzy and more, like, articulate way.
00:37:21 [Speaker 2]
And I think as a designer, it's really important to have a broad vocabulary, and writing can help you practice that.
00:37:31 [Speaker 2]
Like, it can help you, like, discover, like, what can I say about this besides it looks cool?
00:37:39 [Speaker 1]
You can say it looks good.
00:37:42 [Speaker 1]
It looks I like it a lot.
00:37:45 [Speaker 1]
There's so many things you could say.
00:37:48 [Speaker 2]
So many things.
00:37:49 [Speaker 2]
So many great words out there that can really get to what you're actually trying to say.
00:37:56 [Speaker 2]
It used to be everything, like, that I wrote, I, like, published, like, online somewhere.
00:38:04 [Speaker 2]
And these days, I use the notes app, like, on my phone Mhmm.
00:38:09 [Speaker 2]
To just write write write write write write just to practice getting certain, like, ideas out.
00:38:17 [Speaker 2]
Like, I write so much now that never seen.
00:38:21 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:38:22 [Speaker 2]
And that idea, like, you select to be foreign to me.
00:38:25 [Speaker 2]
Like, I don't make a lot of visuals that don't get seen, but I do so much, like, writing now that I'm usually, like, the only person, like, who reads it.
00:38:37 [Speaker 2]
Sometimes, like, one or two, like, close friends.
00:38:40 [Speaker 2]
In doing so, it helps me to, like, articulate better when I have to speak, like, to a client or when I have or when I I'd like to write something that's going like, to be published.
00:38:55 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:38:55 [Speaker 2]
If you had told me, like, when I was a student, like like, that writing was gonna be one of the most important parts, like, of my practice, I would not have believed you.
00:39:08 [Speaker 2]
I was not a great writer then.
00:39:10 [Speaker 2]
I would write these emails that should be, like, one paragraph and and they were, like, four paragraphs.
00:39:17 [Speaker 2]
Even even even as late as, like, 02/2008, like, or 2009 when I was well into, like, my professional career, I would have clients say, I'm not reading all that.
00:39:27 [Speaker 2]
Like, they would email me back, like, that's too much.
00:39:31 [Speaker 2]
And that was a wake up call.
00:39:33 [Speaker 2]
Like, I'm glad, like, that those clients said, tighten it up.
00:39:36 [Speaker 2]
Like, edit yourself.
00:39:37 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:39:39 [Speaker 2]
Well and and that's a great point.
00:39:42 [Speaker 2]
With, like, writing, especially when you're not confident with it or when you're just getting started, like, you should go back, like, to edit it till it's better and and get comfortable with editing my writing, I'm more comfortable with editing, like, my visual work.
00:40:04 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:40:05 [Speaker 1]
We are unfortunately almost running out of time.
00:40:08 [Speaker 1]
Is there anything that I have missed?
00:40:11 [Speaker 2]
Something I would definitely say.
00:40:14 [Speaker 2]
Start on paper.
00:40:15 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:40:15 [Speaker 2]
If you jump straight to the computer, this is a statement particularly, like, for younger, like, designers.
00:40:24 [Speaker 2]
When you jump straight to the computer, it mind because, like, look.
00:40:29 [Speaker 2]
That font is so clean and perfect.
00:40:31 [Speaker 2]
That line is so clean and perfect.
00:40:33 [Speaker 2]
That box, that photo, it all looks so clean and perfect, but they're not.
00:40:38 [Speaker 2]
You've been pushing it around for ten minutes.
00:40:42 [Speaker 1]
Pixel pushing.
00:40:44 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:40:44 [Speaker 1]
I love pixel pushing.
00:40:48 [Speaker 2]
Start, like, on paper, like my sketchbook or I get a scrap piece of paper, and I just sketch.
00:40:54 [Speaker 2]
And I sketch and sketch and sketch and sketch.
00:40:57 [Speaker 2]
Because if something doesn't come pretty quickly, I know that drawing will help me find the answer.
00:41:07 [Speaker 1]
Hey.
00:41:08 [Speaker 1]
Thanks for listening to Typespeaks.
00:41:10 [Speaker 1]
Hope you had a good time because I sure did.
00:41:12 [Speaker 1]
But, unfortunately, the episode is over.
00:41:14 [Speaker 1]
But don't worry.
00:41:15 [Speaker 1]
You can check us out in other places.
00:41:17 [Speaker 1]
Be sure to follow the show to listen to every new episode or listen to some old ones.
00:41:21 [Speaker 1]
Check us out on Instagram at typesneaks pod.
00:41:24 [Speaker 1]
And remember, always keep creating and always stay curious.
00:41:27 [Speaker 1]
I'll see you next time.
00:41:28 [Speaker 1]
I've been Ray.