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On this episode, "Eating Disorders Uncovered," we dive into a topic that hits home for a lot of people, especially as the holidays roll around: eating disorders. The holiday season brings busy schedules, complicated family dynamics and stress which can be challenging for most everyone, but especially hard for anyone dealing with an eating disorder. The heavy focus on food, and increased talk around weight and diets, can be challenging for individuals and bring up anxiety and body image struggles. We will discuss how social media and celebrity culture can add fuel to the fire, setting impossible standards and lead to unhealthy body and dietary comparisons. We will break down what eating disorders are and what they are not, discuss the psychology and complexity behind the behaviors and also share insights and signs to look for if you are concerned about a friend or family member. Whether you are struggling with disordered eating or supporting someone who is, we hope this episode brings some understanding, compassion and encouragement as we head into the holidays.
Creators & Guests
Host
What is The Shrink Down?
Four lifelong friends, all clinical psychologists, unpack the latest in current events, pop culture and celebrity news through the lens of psychology.
Vanessa (00:01.004)
Welcome to The Shrinkdown. Today, we're diving into a topic that hits home for a lot of people, especially as the holidays roll around, eating disorders. The holiday season can really ramp up the stress around food, body image, and family dynamics, making things even harder for people who are dealing with disordered eating. We'll talk about how social media and celebrity culture can add fuel to the fire, which a lot of times setting kind of impossible standards.
In this episode, we'll also break down what's really going on, dig into the psychology behind eating disorders, and share some tips on getting through this season. But before we get into today's topic, let's start with our four-minute faves. Well, Amina, you want to start us off today?
Wilhelmina (00:37.937)
Yeah, sure. So I'm going to talk about a book that I am reading and loving, Indistractable by Nir Eyal, How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life. I probably partly the time of life I'm in, partly my ADHD, but I have been struggling in the last year where I sit down to do something.
whether it's something I want to do, like read a book, or it's something I need to do, and suddenly I'm doing, I'm looking at responding to a text, I'm looking at a calendar update, I remember, something I need to do, I put it on the to-do list. I'm so divided. And again, time of life, that's kind of where I'm at, but it's gotten to a point that I'm just like, I don't like this at all. So I'd heard about this book, got it.
And I love it. I love the way he talks about how distraction actually is not anything new. We have been dealing with distractions forever. And actually, technology being the primary distractor is actually not the thing. Technology is the latest thing that keeps us distracted. And it's a powerful one. But before it was the phone, it was the computer. Before it was the computer, it was the TV. Like, if you look...
Lauren (01:34.399)
Hmm.
Vanessa (01:51.052)
thing.
Wilhelmina (02:01.809)
backwards in time, there've always been things that have been distracting us. So he talks about distraction as really trying to avoid discomfort. So like whether it's the discomfort of not doing something in that moment or the discomfort of just waiting a beat. And so he says, you really have to deal with both internal things that keep you distracted and external things that keep you distracted. And he kind of goes through
what those are. And he talks a lot about how a lot of this is sort of pre-planning and time management and then paying attention to the things that pull you away so that you can really focus on, here's what I want to do today, here's where I want to spend my time, and here are the things that I need to work on not responding to internally and externally. And he talks about it also with how do you help kids with that and how do you
How do you work on it with your friends and your loved ones too? So he really covers the basis. He does it in a very nice palatable way. There's no judging or, and it seems very realistic. It doesn't seem sort of like, just do all of these things and then it'll be easy. seems, I've been really enjoying it.
Lauren (03:20.222)
so that a direct out.
Vanessa (03:20.364)
What's the author's name? Sorry.
Wilhelmina (03:22.099)
Yeah, it's near NIR and then AL EYAL.
Vanessa (03:27.96)
Thanks.
Lauren (03:28.249)
You said addressing like the thing you're avoiding. So does it have like a addressing anxiety piece? Like the discomfort? So is it more like anxiety as opposed to like attention?
Wilhelmina (03:36.347)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (03:41.555)
Well, he kind of says like, is it internally? What is keeping you from just sitting? What's the avoiding? What are you avoiding? And so yeah, so whatever that is, if it is anxiety, if it is, so for me, I sit down to read a book and suddenly I'm like, shoot, I need to do this. And because of my little ADHD brain, if...
Lauren (03:46.708)
Right.
What's the avoidance? Right, right, the discomfort.
Lauren (03:56.126)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (04:08.291)
I fear that if I don't do that right now, I have no idea when it'll circle back around. And so then I'm like, well, I'll just do it right now. And then that leads to something else. mean, you watch me put something away in my house, it will take 20 minutes because I grab the thing, then I start going through the house and I'm like, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. I came back, I was going to grab something for my Maddie the other day and I was like, I came back and Maddie's like, where's the thing? And I'm like, yeah, I, yep, I'll be right back.
Lauren (04:12.97)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lauren (04:35.232)
Right, right, right.
Wilhelmina (04:37.875)
20 minutes later. So I like it in the sense of it really does address the fact that it is discomfort. Like we're trying to get away from discomfort and we actually kind of have to lean into that, which that message seems to be all around us right now. Like we are really good at just sort of like distracting ourselves from feeling anything uncomfortable. And the more comfortable we get with discomfort, actually
Lauren (04:49.364)
Yeah.
Teri (04:51.772)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (04:51.816)
something.
Lauren (04:57.546)
course.
Lauren (05:02.975)
Yep.
Teri (05:03.528)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (05:06.143)
Yep.
Wilhelmina (05:07.623)
we end up being able to live more authentically with like aligned with our values and what we want.
Vanessa (05:15.22)
Great.
Lauren (05:15.549)
Awesome.
Wilhelmina (05:16.125)
So yeah, Terry, what are you loving?
Teri (05:16.849)
I like that.
I am loving this lamp. So we'll put it on Instagram. This is the size. So this is my head gives you a lamp. I kept it out. It's a little table lamp from Amazon. It is so freaking cute. It comes. This is white. It actually is a little iridescent, but it's not tacky iridescent. And it also comes in this cool, like olive green, a Navy blue, a baby blue.
Wilhelmina (05:25.37)
Hahaha
Lauren (05:27.806)
This is so cute! It's so cute!
Wilhelmina (05:28.303)
Hahaha!
Wilhelmina (05:32.741)
So cute.
Lauren (05:35.431)
Ha!
Thank
Teri (05:48.142)
It is, I opened it and I was like, this is so fricking cute. I don't know yet. I just ordered it and I was like, I'll find a place for it. I'm going to order in all the colors. I think I was like, I'm just going to order like 10 of them. And I know everyone's Christmas gift is probably going to be this little lamp. Find a spot. It's little. It's like not like you could just.
Vanessa (05:51.352)
Where are you putting it? I love that, you bought it.
Wilhelmina (06:00.122)
it's so cute
Lauren (06:03.028)
That's funny. Yeah. It's a lamp.
Vanessa (06:06.454)
lamp.
you
Wilhelmina (06:09.964)
Now you know. Now you know. Make room for it, people.
Teri (06:13.672)
make room and it's not it is when I first opened it I was like it's smaller than I thought but it's perfect it's so it's just so cute I'm so happy with it it's one of those things that I look at and I'm like I'm so good I'm so glad I bought that so I'm gonna find a little spot for it and I might move it around but saw a link for it on Amazon clicked it ordered it it came over the weekend and I just find myself really liking it and so today it was sitting out in my bedroom and I thought that's gonna be my thing
Lauren (06:25.705)
I
Vanessa (06:28.6)
you
Lauren (06:39.402)
Thank
Lauren (06:43.284)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (06:44.189)
much is it?
Okay!
Vanessa (06:48.12)
Lauren, what are you sharing with us today?
Lauren (06:48.776)
Hahaha
Teri (06:53.032)
$65. So not a cheapy Amazon, but I think well worth the $65.
Wilhelmina (06:55.527)
Okay, okay.
Lauren (06:58.494)
Nice. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (07:01.053)
Yeah, it's really cute.
Lauren (07:02.506)
you. So speaking of, you had said you think it's gonna be a Christmas gift. So I was actually thinking since we are getting near to the holidays, we're gonna touch on the holidays this week and probably next. I was thinking about something that would be a good holiday sort of mini gift guide. And it came up for me this weekend and I can't believe I haven't talked about it yet because it.
Teri (07:03.932)
Lauren, what do you got?
Lauren (07:27.378)
It is an everyday use in our house. is something that kids love. We've had it now for like a year and a half, but bucket golf. So if you guys follow me on Instagram or social media or whatever, you've seen my kid, you've seen me post pictures of my kids playing bucket golf. They love it. It's a great game for all ages. It's compact. It comes in a little travel case. It's so it's like a wiffle ball. You get a golf club and you're hitting it into a big bucket. It's
Wilhelmina (07:36.84)
How?
Lauren (07:57.0)
super user friendly, super all ages can play. So my little three year old nephew plays all the way up to my parents. Really, really fun for families. It would be a great gift for really anybody, but especially kids. You do not have to be a golfer. It can.
Wilhelmina (08:10.023)
I like that.
Lauren (08:14.356)
The reason I was thinking of it this weekend is we went up north for a quick weekend up north and we did not bring it. And the boys were so disappointed and like made up their own little, they like made up like a faux bucket golf game for themselves because we didn't bring it. So it's like great for all ages, all interests level. It's super palatable, super easy to play. It would be an awesome gift. So bucket golf. Yes.
Vanessa (08:39.145)
We played bucket ball. I don't know if you've seen that one. It's probably very similar. So it's like, it's got the big buckets and then you throw the ball into it. It says golf club, you're kicking it.
Lauren (08:44.108)
Maybe. Yep. Okay. Nope. This is golf clubs. So you're, you're like, you're hitting it, but it's like a wiffle ball. I mean, the boys even last winter set up a couple of holes in the basement because you could do it even with the foam golf balls. You don't necessarily even have to have like a big ball that you're utilizing. it's a awesome idea for a gift.
Wilhelmina (09:06.917)
Is it mounted TV friendly? feel like, I feel like.
Lauren (09:10.708)
Right. So if you were using, I would do like in our basement, like we have a pretty nice size basement, but I would use the little, like the foam practice balls that they, because it's a wiffle ball, right? So, you know, you can get a little nuts with that. But I mean, it's easy to put outside even in the winter. Like if there's nothing on the ground and it's just like a colder day. So we had it like, I don't know, 50s this weekend up North. It was beautiful actually. And the boys were outside in winter color.
Vanessa (09:12.274)
Hahaha!
Teri (09:27.164)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (09:39.774)
jackets but they were still playing so yeah it's a fun one. Vanessa what about you?
Wilhelmina (09:42.333)
Neat. Not fair.
Vanessa (09:46.264)
So I'm going to share sort of like more of a hack, but I'll have a thing to share. So I mentioned last time that I just went to Nashville with some of my girlfriends to celebrate a birthday. And I was doing my hair and one of my girlfriends was like, how do you do that with your curls? Like you get them to be like so like wavy. And I was like, you have to comb out the curls. And so she was like, what are you talking about? I was like, yeah, so you curl your hair. So you want to always like wrap away from your hair on this side. And then this side you're going to wrap away from your head.
And then I use this little guy. So I wait till it cools off. So it's a, like a wide tooth comb. This one has the ridges, which I think actually makes it better. And so then after you curl your hair, I kind of let it cool. And then I just like brush them out and then it turns more into like a wave rather than like those ringlet curls. Yeah. So yeah. So if you want it to be more of like a wave, you just use this cool little comb. So this is made by Conair. So I'll link it. But yeah, it's just like a wide tooth comb, but it has these like ridges for it. Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (10:20.128)
Thank you.
Teri (10:20.199)
Mmm.
Teri (10:34.128)
Ring, ringlet.
Wilhelmina (10:34.237)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (10:34.58)
Hmm
Teri (10:43.698)
Kinda funky looking too.
Lauren (10:44.424)
Yeah, it's kind of cool.
Vanessa (10:45.762)
So yeah, so this is my little tip trick for having the waves in your hair versus curls.
Wilhelmina (10:52.123)
I, yeah, I like that because I'll just use my normal brush and then I'm like, well, then that's now they're now they're gone.
Vanessa (10:57.064)
No. Yeah, because then that brushes them out. This just loosens them without really... And if you have really straight hair, like your hair doesn't keep a curl, then the trick is to use a smaller curl because it'll loosen up the curl. you want to... Yeah, it's like a smaller barrel. And then I use... I don't use hairspray anymore. I use texture spray.
Lauren (10:58.152)
That's it.
Teri (10:59.932)
Yeah. Same. Same. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (11:01.075)
Well, Terry!
Lauren (11:02.518)
And now they're gone, right?
Wilhelmina (11:06.707)
Terry.
Lauren (11:10.377)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (11:16.114)
Smaller barrel.
Wilhelmina (11:23.293)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (11:23.871)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (11:24.054)
because it still holds without it being so crunchy. And so you could use a smaller barrel, spray the texture spray, let it cool off, and this texture spray dry, and then you go through it. And then you got it.
Wilhelmina (11:27.731)
Crunchy, yeah.
Lauren (11:28.714)
Yeah.
Teri (11:39.376)
Is texture spray the same as finishing spray? Yep.
Vanessa (11:42.452)
No. Nope.
Wilhelmina (11:42.87)
No, texture spray adds like grit, grit and yeah, grit and volume.
Lauren (11:42.986)
I don't know.
Vanessa (11:45.814)
Volume and grit, yes. Yeah, so like after you brush through it, if you wanna like, like let's say it's humid or it's raining, whatever, then you can go through with a finishing spray to like hold that look, but to brush it, you wanna use texture spray so that it's not, doesn't get all the weird flakes and you know, gross. So yeah, texture spray, especially for like fine hair. That's like a good one. Cause it also gives volume. So like you just like kind of zhuzh it up, gives you some volume. Yeah, same.
Wilhelmina (12:07.825)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I use a lot of texture spray. Love it.
Vanessa (12:15.052)
Give it some zhuzh. So yeah, that's my share. All right, thanks everyone for sharing. As mentioned, we will be talking today about eating disorders. We thought that this topic was relevant given the time of year, but what also piqued our interest was a recent article that came out about a celebrity's very specific diet. So a question that we had was, is that a sign of eating disorder? Whenever we have the topic of eating disorders comes up, we always defer to Wilhelmina, AKA Dr. Sugar, who is our resident expert on this topic.
Wilhelmina (12:18.728)
Awesome.
Vanessa (12:43.98)
So today, Terry, Lauren and I will be asking her all the questions. To get started on today's topic, I thought it would be helpful for Wilhelmina to answer that question. Is something like a very specific diet indicative of an eating disorder?
Wilhelmina (12:58.279)
So it absolutely can be. Whenever I hear things like that, whether I'm reading celebrity news or if someone is talking to me about how they eat, when they are very rigid with how they eat, they have rules around how they eat, the quantity is sort of very small, then, or actually over, it could be a big amount too. So I shouldn't say just too small.
So yeah, I guess I would say my Spidey sense goes up as just like a, And I'll say in this culture we live in, it goes up a lot because a lot of the things out there teach people basically how to like, how to have a sustainable eating disorder essentially. so yes, yes, there's, yes, absolutely. So.
Lauren (13:40.224)
Right.
Lauren (13:47.742)
Right. Socially acceptable. In quotes. Yeah.
Teri (13:51.922)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (13:56.197)
Even all of the different IBS, gluten, all of these things, the amount of food allergies I see. I remember when I used to work at Alexian Brothers Hospital in the partial eating disorder program. We had more food related allergies to gluten, to different, so many things.
Lauren (14:04.682)
Hmm.
Wilhelmina (14:24.549)
And it was statistically more than is like out there in the population. And it's because it is a, no one's going to question that. I can't eat that because I am fill in the blank. Then people are like, okay. And they just allow it versus actually having an actual. Yeah. mean, they might think they do or they, it might, they might think they do. So for example, someone who is
Lauren (14:42.369)
So they don't necessarily have the diagnosis. Right.
Wilhelmina (14:54.311)
very restrictive and then they don't eat a certain type of food like dairy or cheese and then they eat it. Well, then their stomach might be a little like, whoa. And they're like, see, I have an intolerance to dairy. Is it or is it just so rare that you eat that because it's something you restrict that then starts to like interact with you. So they could think it or it could be a way that they have been able to sort of socially cut out certain pockets of food, types of food.
Lauren (15:01.098)
Thank you.
Lauren (15:05.642)
Right.
Wilhelmina (15:24.179)
And so whenever I see people who have several of those, I just get that little spidey sense. There's some, you can't tell that a person has an eating disorder by looking at them. That's a big one. Although, and most of my friends know this, if someone is suffering from bulimia, which means they're doing, you know, they're binging and then doing some type of...
behavior to sort of make up for that. So whether that's throwing up, whether that's excessive exercising, whether that's even restrictive eating to make up for that. So it's just some sort of back and forth between excessive food and then something to get rid of that sort of caloric compensatory. Thank you. But if someone is throwing up purging a lot frequently, like multiple times a day for a long period of time, they do often have these, they're
Teri (16:08.178)
compensatory strategy. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (16:22.493)
their parotids are swollen and their teeth, yeah. And when you see those swollen parotids and once you see it, you can't unsee it. And that is usually a sign that they're struggling with some type of bulimia. And that's the only visual that I would really say. you, Terry, would you agree with that?
Lauren (16:23.444)
Right, yes.
Teri (16:25.864)
my teeth.
Lauren (16:27.625)
Yeah.
Lauren (16:38.431)
Mm.
Teri (16:44.817)
I would, yeah. In my understanding, I did a brief one-year training many years ago in the eating disorder program at University of Chicago. And I remember them explaining it has to do with the salivary glands. And because those are sort of overproducing if they are engaging and purging. But I think it's, I think the only other thing I would maybe add, I don't know how you feel about this, is if somebody is significantly underweight, given their age, that obviously, now there could be other reasons for that.
Wilhelmina (16:54.397)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (17:08.945)
Yes.
Teri (17:14.28)
Somebody could be medically compromised, but I also think that sometimes I remember moms coming in with their teen daughters to the eating disorder clinic and saying it wasn't until I saw a homecoming picture and I actually saw the vision, even though I see my daughter on a daily hourly basis living in my household, it was when we got the homecoming photos back with the prom pics back and I saw her in a photo and that provided the visual that I thought, gosh, she doesn't.
Lauren (17:32.884)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (17:43.698)
Her body looks different, it seems. So sometimes that could be what prompts the referral, I think, for evaluation or intervention. But I think otherwise, yeah, you really can't tell just based on glancing at someone.
Wilhelmina (17:48.317)
Yes, yes.
Lauren (17:48.865)
Right.
Wilhelmina (17:54.321)
Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Like severe, significant change of weight in a rapid period of time. someone who is struggling with severe anorexia, yes, usually there is a visual, yes. But again, you don't want to just assume because someone is super, they could be dealing with something else. yes, that is, and that peach fuzz that comes with like all over the body because, lanugo, because they,
Teri (18:01.734)
Yeah.
Vanessa (18:07.222)
You can see that, yeah.
Teri (18:09.085)
Yeah.
Lauren (18:13.568)
Okay.
Lauren (18:21.492)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (18:22.739)
They basically are cold. And so their body gives that little fur essentially all over their body to keep them. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.
Lauren (18:28.316)
A protective barrier. me ask you a question about like how does the celebrity diet culture, so I'm going use that as a big broad term.
impact. Well, I know, I mean, it impacts, I think somebody that's not struggling with an eating disorder when you see all of that information. So this article that Vanessa referred to earlier is talking about what a celebrity eats like every single day and has for years and years and years and years, which it, like we said, it didn't look like particularly nutritionally sound, it looked like it wasn't very much. But, and remember when they used to put those that in magazines? Remember when they used to put and they
Wilhelmina (19:09.843)
Mm hmm. Yes.
Teri (19:10.534)
in US Weekly.
Lauren (19:11.506)
They used to put the calories, like what so-and-so consumes in a day and they used to put everything. How does that impact both somebody that's struggling with, whether it's a diagnosable eating disorder or just struggling with their relationship with food, how does that impact the social media celebrity culture impact them? Yeah, that's out there.
Teri (19:34.086)
Like the information, like it being put out there, yeah.
Lauren (19:37.222)
they make it look so like they really always generally media puts a very positive spin on those things so it's not like it's
Wilhelmina (19:43.185)
Yes. Yes.
Vanessa (19:44.663)
I saw this term called fit spiration, like it's fitness inspiration. I was like, yeah, that's it. And where it's like, yes, I'm inspiring to be living this healthy lifestyle, but it's not necessarily always a healthy lifestyle. And there's so many things on social media that can change that, you know, they call it like the changing the actual, like the pictures, how many times have we heard articles come out like, that's not actually like what the person looked like, but they're touting that this thing or this.
Wilhelmina (19:47.089)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (20:11.126)
diet or this lifestyle makes them look a certain way. In reality, they don't look that way or they do, but it's not because they're actually in doing this diet or following this specific lifestyle.
Wilhelmina (20:24.113)
Yeah, I think that all of that, talking about what people are eating in a, like you said, Lauren, in a positive light, like, they just have a light breakfast of egg whites, and then they followed up with some, the joke is always like, and if they're a little hungry, five almonds, you know? And those aren't helpful for anyone.
Lauren (20:35.06)
Right.
Lauren (20:42.561)
broiled salmon.
Vanessa (20:46.808)
Thank
Wilhelmina (20:52.103)
Honestly, they're just not, they're not helpful. you are like Lauren, you said if you're not struggling with eating disorder, you usually read that and be like, God, I eat a lot more than that. And if you are struggling, eating disorders look always for comparison. They are always comparing what they're doing to what other people are doing. If you are out to eat with someone who has an eating disorder, are.
Lauren (20:58.816)
Great.
Lauren (21:02.995)
All right.
Wilhelmina (21:18.035)
paying attention to what you're eating, what you're not eating. They're paying attention to what they're eating, what they're not eating. They are always comparing. So they read those articles and they absolutely take in that information and think, I got to do better. Or it even could be, I do so much better because I don't eat that much. Look at, I am even more controlled with this. I, because sometimes they see it as sort of a,
Lauren (21:35.741)
Right.
Wilhelmina (21:47.751)
like proud of it, can't get the word out. They're proud of it. feel, I should say, their eating disorder is proud of it. And I do a lot of, we step away kind of the parts work that I was talking about. You have yourself and you have your eating disorder parts. And I do a lot of work with my patients in differentiating that. So you, like, I want to hear from you, not your eating disorder. Yes, yes.
Lauren (21:49.576)
Right.
Lauren (21:54.921)
Right.
Lauren (22:07.252)
Great.
Teri (22:11.034)
Like that's the ed talking. I remember saying that when I was, yeah, like, that's the ed talking. One thing that I think of the two areas that people say don't send them to group therapy, a group therapy modality, even though that's what often happens because of insurance reasons and programming, but they say eating disorders and substance abuse, because those are the two where people can get tips and tricks from their cohorts.
Lauren (22:11.166)
Right. Right.
Wilhelmina (22:32.659)
Yes.
Vanessa (22:37.349)
yeah. Right. They're learning things.
Lauren (22:37.906)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Teri (22:39.82)
And it can become a glamorization session. so those are the two, even though substance abuse and eating disorders, I don't know if it's changed at all, Wilhelmina, but those are sort of the two where they're like, it is a modality often utilized, but it's one that doesn't serve the disorder well because of the comparison, like the nature of how it's discussed. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (22:55.035)
It is.
Lauren (23:00.042)
that social comparison.
Vanessa (23:01.016)
dynamics.
Wilhelmina (23:03.275)
You have to have a very good moderator who is not going to allow any detailed talking of food and behaviors. You can talk about your emotions. You can talk about that. But you're right, Terry. The minute they start to talk and you'll be like, no, no, we're not going into details. We're not going into specifics. I think it can be really good after you have gone through it and you're in recovery. Some of those things, think, group can be really, really helpful. know Annad and
Lauren (23:11.764)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (23:26.7)
Mm.
Wilhelmina (23:33.201)
Anorexia, nervosa, and associated disorders has a group that you can find one all over. can go ana.org and you could find a group near you. And I think those groups are really helpful, can be really helpful. Not all groups are the same. So again, you have to have a good moderator. So you have to have someone that's gonna keep the group safe. And Terry, it's interesting you say that about substance abuse because...
I went to a conference last year and they are actually now saying that eating disorders and substance abuse, you should always be checking. So if someone has substance abuse, check for an eating disorder. If they have an eating disorder, check for substance abuse, because they are so highly, they go together so much and someone could cut back on their eating disorder and then their substance abuse kicks in. yeah, yeah.
Lauren (24:21.198)
They use it as a replacement? Okay, interesting.
Teri (24:24.797)
could see that.
Wilhelmina (24:26.131)
That's something that's newer that they're saying, wow, this is really, we're seeing more and more of this. I think it was always there, but it just wouldn't be talked about. You wouldn't address it because you're talking about food or you're talking about this, but you're not talking about that. And in the background, they maybe aren't doing this, but they're drinking, things like that.
Teri (24:45.68)
And I remember learning that to always assess for essay for substance abuse if there is a binging component because that's a very impulsive behavior. so, right. And so always like make sure you're assessing, you know, for both of those if that's. The one I have a question related to, I know there are higher rates of eating disorders among neurodivergent populations.
Wilhelmina (24:51.559)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.
Lauren (24:52.382)
Right? That addiction, that addictive type behavior.
Vanessa (24:54.808)
I think you're
Teri (25:10.278)
And so, and that's true, not just of like, so it's true for anorexia, for bulimia, and I know ARFID, which I think you'll get to Wilhelmina, which is avoidant restrictive food intake disorder, and which is beyond just picky eating. Wilhelmina sort of defined a differentiation between those two. But maybe that is my question actually, is how do you determine
Wilhelmina (25:19.975)
restrictive.
Teri (25:36.448)
maybe this person should explore if there's some neurodivergent qualities either related to an autism profile or an ADHD and an autism profile because there's high comorbidity between autism and ADHD. And how do know if this is just an eating disorder or is this just an eating disorder with a comorbid presentation, especially if there's RFID because there's so much overlap, I think, between neurodivergent profiles and RFID.
Wilhelmina (26:02.599)
because similar to they can use that as their focus, right? Like it's sort of a socially acceptable way to focus on food and their body and this. And so it kind of gets masked because so many people, especially women are focused on their bodies and food and all of that, whether they have an eating disorder or not. So they can kind of hide their focus.
Lauren (26:08.565)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (26:32.203)
So it does get masked. know, Tara, I think that it would depend on the environment. Because if you were somewhere at like a hospital, you might say, hey, we suggest you go and get some testing. And if you think that that might be going on. In private practice, it's kind of a different situation. Because if they're coming to you because they want treatment for an eating disorder, and you suspect that there's some neurodiversity going on, and
Lauren (26:46.57)
Right.
Wilhelmina (27:01.351)
believe me, it's happened for me. If that's not what they're coming in and they're not saying they want to get testing, sometimes I just sort of know in the back of my mind that that's probably what's going on. And I sort of treat it as such until they start telling me that that's problematic in their life. And so I might drop a hint, I might not, but sometimes it's hard if that's like, that's not even on their radar and they're coming in for treatment of this. So it's sort of a hard, you kind of have to navigate that.
Lauren (27:03.68)
Right.
Wilhelmina (27:31.143)
gently, I would say, in private practice. So sometimes I just know it in my head. like, I think this is going on. And we work with it. And at some point, I might say, hey, you know what? Let's get some testing. But if that doesn't even come up naturally, then it might just be something I know.
Lauren (27:48.618)
Right.
Vanessa (27:49.378)
I wanted to ask you about, since we're talking about kind of things that can, you know, we just talked about neurodiversity, I wanted to ask you about the role that trauma can play in eating disorders. I was recently reading a case study about somebody who had experienced sexual abuse and was then experiencing severe anorexia and was reporting that they were basically trying to...
that their anorexia was related to the trauma. So can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Wilhelmina (28:20.615)
Yeah, there is definitely a higher occurrence of trauma, especially when you get into later adolescents, young adults, women especially. If they are struggling with an eating disorder, you should probably be assessing for trauma. It doesn't mean that they do have trauma, but you should certainly be assessing for it. Again, when I was running groups, the amount of young adults who were struggling with an eating disorder and then reported
different traumas, rapes, assaults, things like that. It was so high. It was so high. Because so many of eating disorders, it's about control. It's all about control. So when you are sexually assaulted, you have lost control. And so all you want to do is be in control of your body again. And then you use food, you use weight, you use those things to feel in control.
Vanessa (28:53.986)
Sexual. Yeah.
Lauren (28:56.756)
Yeah.
Vanessa (29:11.896)
that make sense.
Wilhelmina (29:18.739)
And so you really have to kind of, one, you have to address the trauma and then, you you address the eating. I mean, you can kind of do those together, but really you should be addressing the trauma. If there's not a health, the health isn't like dire, if someone's not severely underweight or was like binging and purging to a point where you're concerned, you should be sort of addressing the trauma first and then address the eating disorder.
Lauren (29:44.362)
That makes sense. How difficult are the holidays for people navigating all of this?
Wilhelmina (29:51.539)
so, so hard. Before basically all of November and December with my patients, especially when I had more who were very active in their eating disorder, we would do a lot of pre-planning. We would be talking out the things that they're going to face because here's the thing, eating disorders, there's not one single cause of an eating disorder. There's lots of different reasons and usually multiple factors that feed into
Lauren (30:16.276)
Right.
Wilhelmina (30:19.793)
the outcome being an eating disorder. But I will tell you that family, there's a lot of families with people who have an eating disorder where there are rules around food. There's a lot of body and weight talk. There's good foods, bad foods. There's morality around foods. you're not gonna eat that. There's, we don't have that. We don't serve that. We don't have that in the house.
And so for people who are struggling to go into a family environment where a lot of that's going on, especially if they're in recovery, it gets really tough. So to kind of go back into something where they're like, no, I'm just going to eat this way. you're really going to eat that much? Whoa, whoa, are you going back for seconds? And so they have to kind of prepare for like what they're going to experience. We do a lot of pre-planning with food too, like, hey.
look at what's available on Thanksgiving, pre-plan your plate. Whether it's you're restrictive, so make sure you're getting enough, whether you are feeling like you're gonna binge, like making sure you kind of pre-plan your plate. So we do a lot of pre-planning so that you can take the emotion out of it. It can just sort of be something where you make the decision kind of in your self space and you don't let the eating to sort of make the decision and then you kind of follow that.
Lauren (31:41.012)
Right.
Lauren (31:45.12)
I have to imagine there's boundary work and some role playing too that takes place regarding like how they communicate or respond to some of that commentary that you were saying.
Wilhelmina (31:51.997)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (31:55.835)
Yes. The amount of times that I have someone who maybe was underweight and then they are in recovery for with their eating disorder, they're doing really well. They've perhaps put weight back on. The amount of family members who are gathering for Thanksgiving, Christmas. my God, you look great. You look so healthy. You look so healthy. What you've basically just told that person is you look like a fat cow.
I mean, essentially that's what they hear. And I always tell people, it is absolutely. And so I actually say, God, if you are gonna hear that comment and you will, you need to know that they're coming from this place. And then if I can talk to the family, I'll be like, avoid all body talk. Don't tell them how great they look. Don't tell them anything.
Lauren (32:29.258)
That's a well-meaning comment though, right?
Lauren (32:39.892)
Yeah.
Lauren (32:43.56)
Right, right. You don't need to comment on that.
Vanessa (32:43.906)
Right, yeah. Yeah, that's like a rule in our house. I always tell her we don't comment on people's bodies. Like that's something that I tell her, we do not comment on people's bodies.
Wilhelmina (32:50.696)
Yes.
Teri (32:51.156)
I tell, I've expanded to we don't comment on people's houses. We don't comment on people's cars. We don't comment on people's teeth. Because that's a big one that my children like to notice are other people's teeth. We don't comment on bodies. We don't comment on hair. The list is getting longer and longer. Basically, keep it to yourself. Yeah.
Lauren (32:52.958)
Yep.
Vanessa (32:56.504)
Good one.
Wilhelmina (32:57.473)
Lauren (33:00.65)
Yeah.
Vanessa (33:09.336)
you
Lauren (33:12.454)
Right. Right.
Wilhelmina (33:12.743)
Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Body talk in general is just, have you lost weight? You look great. Listen to that. Like, so I didn't look great before? And well, I think it's probably the weight stigma.
Lauren (33:22.418)
I know. Weird as that comes. What's the origin of that?
Vanessa (33:23.192)
Right. Great, right, right. Yes.
Teri (33:29.414)
And I actually have noticed, I don't know if you guys would agree with this, that men are actually much worse at commenting on each other's bodies. At least my husband and his friends, the stuff that comes out of their mouths, if somebody has lost weight or gained weight, I'm like, whoa. If male to male, yes. yeah. It's where both my husband and I have sort of been like, whoa, would you ever say that to a female? Like never.
Lauren (33:31.668)
Yeah.
Lauren (33:37.941)
Hmm.
Lauren (33:46.394)
on mail, like mail to mail commentary. interesting.
Vanessa (33:49.208)
Yeah, that's so interesting.
Lauren (33:58.528)
Hmm.
Wilhelmina (33:59.173)
Interesting.
Teri (33:59.206)
Like, yeah, I don't know if that's something you guys have noticed as well.
Vanessa (34:01.908)
Hmm. I have my... But now I'm going to look out for it.
Wilhelmina (34:02.705)
I have not, but yeah.
Lauren (34:04.798)
Gosh, you know what I will say just last week. So last week was Halloween and my neighborhood, they have like a hayride and we were going. So it was a large step that the kids had to go to get off and on the hayride. And my, went to pull over the step to help some of the kids get off the hayride. And my son commented and he goes, mom, you're so strong. And another mom,
Teri (34:07.068)
Yes, yes.
Lauren (34:34.122)
picked up on, I didn't, and he said, mom, you're so strong. And another mom picked up on it. She's like, that's awesome, Sam. I mean, and it was just like, I was very proud in that moment because we focus on that, like that kind of word, right? Like you're so strong versus, you know, some words that maybe would contain judgment to what Terry was saying. So that was like a little proud moment there, but I was like, good. You know, my son saying the word strong about me, like that felt awesome.
Wilhelmina (34:42.043)
Wilhelmina (34:55.036)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (35:02.951)
Yes, I love that.
Lauren (35:04.378)
Yeah.
Teri (35:05.372)
Now I have a question because I'm thinking of my friends who have tween age girls and teen girls. And I've got a couple of teenage nieces. If you as a parent or a relative, an aunt, close friend, mom, feel concerned and a little pink flag goes up about your, whatever the young person is, male or female, about their eating, what are some warning signs? What are things to look for? And when should you seek
Wilhelmina (35:09.34)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Teri (35:35.324)
further professional consultation.
Wilhelmina (35:37.777)
Yeah, that's a great question. So I think that the first thing you just start paying attention. So pay attention to what they're eating, how much they're eating. Are they eating with you? There's a lot of teens that just, I don't want to eat with the family. So they're busy. Yes. They start to avoid meals where they didn't before. Yeah.
Lauren (35:52.39)
Mmm, that's a good one.
Teri (35:56.22)
or they're busy.
Lauren (35:59.179)
That was avoidance behaviors. Yeah.
Vanessa (36:00.77)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (36:01.683)
They might again start to have rules. Well mom, I'm just trying to eat healthier So I'm gonna not eat this or I'm not gonna eat that so pay attention. That's the first thing just start paying attention Try to have family meals. I mean I say that to all families like have family meals Ideally two to three times a week when your kids are older and busy, you know, just it's a way to check in it's a way Tons of research tons of research absolutely
Lauren (36:15.7)
Yeah.
Teri (36:16.36)
Yes.
Teri (36:24.69)
There's really good research behind it too that we can touch on another point for not just eating disorders, but lots of, yeah, everything. Family meals, very important.
Lauren (36:27.109)
yeah, beyond eating disorders. Yep. Yep.
Vanessa (36:28.428)
Yeah, right, everything. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (36:31.431)
Yep. yeah. It's very important. So I mean, the amount of people who aren't eating with their families ever, especially teens, it's so I'm like, why are we not eating together? so pay attention. Pay attention to the bathroom too. Like, do they eat and then immediately go to the bathroom? You know, all the time, whether you're out, whether you're at home, that's a sign.
Lauren (36:35.732)
Yeah.
Lauren (36:43.645)
I know.
Lauren (36:52.64)
Mmm.
Lauren (36:57.064)
Okay.
Wilhelmina (37:00.851)
weight loss or weight gain, like sudden weight loss, weight gain. Obviously, there's a lot of things going on. If they're young, there's hormones and they're going through puberty. we're talking like, especially weight loss when you have a tween or an adolescent, they really shouldn't be losing a ton of weight at that age. They really shouldn't. There's no reason if they're in kind an average weight range that they should ever be like,
losing weight to a significant amount that you're like, whoa. And so that's a sign to look for. Those are all kind of the ones I just start to say, pay attention. And then talk to them. The amount of people that avoid the subject with their, don't want to say anything, I don't want to offend, pay attention first. And then if you continue to have red flags, just pay attention and talk about what you've noticed.
Lauren (37:42.058)
pay attention.
Lauren (37:48.435)
Right.
Wilhelmina (38:00.103)
Just say, hey, here's what I've noticed this, and specific behaviors. I've noticed this, and I'm a little concerned. And maybe you just leave it at that to start with. Maybe you don't even have them say anything. You just say, I'm kind of paying attention and I'm noticing. And if you want to talk to me, I'm here. And you kind of maybe keep doing that. And then, of course, if there's extreme weight loss,
Teri (38:02.194)
I
Lauren (38:03.039)
Yeah.
Lauren (38:13.556)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (38:27.379)
more extreme behaviors, then you definitely look for either a therapist, if it's depending on the severity, or a partial program where they can actually get help with their meals and medication if necessary, and just have more intensive help to kind of get them rolling on the recovery, which by the way, that's the key. It's not the end of recovery when they go through an inpatient program. It's the beginning of recovery. Then it goes from there.
Lauren (38:54.57)
Yeah.
Vanessa (38:57.078)
Yeah, I think you bring up, you know, we just talked about like the importance of having the family meal, but just having good communication with your teens in general and your teen knowing that they can come to you for whatever. I think building that relationship and focusing on that is important because then you can get at things like eating disorders, but then even any other mental health stuff going on, anxiety, depression, problems with friends, like you want to have that good open communication with your teen just in general.
Lauren (39:03.774)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (39:04.321)
Yeah.
Lauren (39:22.842)
Right, because it could be that the change in eating isn't a primary eating disorder per se, but rather an anxiety or depression profile that you're going to get at if you actually have the hard conversation. Or like you said, Wilhelmina, start a conversation by saying, here's what I'm noticing.
Wilhelmina (39:28.335)
Mm-hmm. Yes, absolutely.
Vanessa (39:28.802)
Secondary, yep, something else, yep.
Wilhelmina (39:42.329)
And always pay attention to what you're doing. Like as, mean, if you have kids, pay attention to what you're doing. Have an honest look at your own relationship with your body. Mm-hmm. Yes.
Lauren (39:46.686)
That's a good one.
Lauren (39:52.884)
Your messaging. Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (39:53.366)
So just about to say our relationship with food and how we like our role as you know, our role models to our kids, boys and girls, right? And what we say is so they're hearing it, they're they're globbing onto it, they're soaking it all in. So when you're saying negative things about food in your body, they're hearing you.
Wilhelmina (40:00.423)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (40:06.034)
Yes.
Lauren (40:10.59)
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Wilhelmina (40:12.327)
Yes, and they're seeing it. like practice what you want your kids to do. So if you're saying you gotta eat breakfast every morning, you gotta eat breakfast, but you skip breakfast. If you are saying dessert, you could have a dessert, you could have a dessert night and they literally never see you eat dessert. I mean, my kids are like, I'm like raiding their Halloween candy. They're seeing that on a regular basis, you know? And so pay attention to how you're talking about your body. You know, like, mommy can't.
Lauren (40:17.992)
Right.
Lauren (40:24.799)
Great.
Lauren (40:33.744)
Right.
Teri (40:35.421)
Huh?
Lauren (40:40.83)
Right.
Wilhelmina (40:41.787)
Mommy can't wear a two-piece anymore. She's just, you know, she's just a little too, you know, fat, too big, whatever. Don't say that. Don't say that.
Lauren (40:49.652)
They take all of that in.
Teri (40:50.898)
Well, yeah, and speaking of, I'll say speaking of kids, could you briefly, Wilmena, talk about, because I know people listening are thinking of their kids and their picky eating. Could you talk about the difference between picky eating and RFID?
Vanessa (40:51.165)
I know I'm really good.
Wilhelmina (40:59.239)
Yep. Yes.
Wilhelmina (41:05.009)
Yes. So ARFID is actually one of the newer diagnoses with the newest DSM, avoidant restrictive food intake disorder. basically, is kids, young adults, it can actually happen in any age, but it is more common in kids where they are avoiding certain foods, certain food groups completely. They may not like taste, textures.
colors even sometimes. And this is not about their weight. So they are not trying to control their weight. They're not trying to diet. They're not trying to change how they look. This is about the food. This is about a fear around some type of food, whether it could be new food, whether it could be the texture of the food. It actually
Lauren (41:35.189)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (41:59.385)
is similar to OCD in the sense of how it kind of presents. And so sometimes that actually has to be the rule out too. But they think their thoughts are rational. they may say, I can't eat that because, but they actually believe that. So if I eat this food, I might throw up. And they believe that will happen.
Lauren (42:01.663)
Yeah.
Teri (42:07.111)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (42:26.391)
All
Wilhelmina (42:29.327)
That's the biggest differentiation between ARFID and like anorexia or things like that is that they aren't doing it for their weight. They're not doing it for their shape. No, yes. And, I was just going to say that this is hard to pick out with like a picky eater, but I think that like my son, Griffin, he's totally a picky eater. But like, I very much know his is around anxiety around kind of trying new foods.
Teri (42:37.275)
There's no concerns about their weight and shape. Yeah.
Lauren (42:38.492)
It's not a body image thing.
Vanessa (42:40.035)
Yeah, it's more of like a troll. I was gonna... God.
Wilhelmina (42:59.188)
And I'm not concerned in any other way. We can take him out to eat. We can take him to friends' houses. He might be like, he's just going to eat the noodles if you serve spaghetti. He's going to just eat the carbs. But it's not out of fear. if you have a kiddo with Arfitt, yes, yes. If you have a kid with Arfitt, you're not taking them out to eat. You're not taking them out to family restaurants. There's an interference in life because of this.
Teri (43:16.006)
It's not a restrictive sort of interest. Yeah.
Lauren (43:22.026)
So it's impacting functioning. Yeah. Where's a picky eater? Like you said, they're going to just pick out something, right? But they'll find something, right? Interesting.
Wilhelmina (43:28.507)
So it's annoying. Yes. Yes. Like he might just have the French fries for the meal, but he'll find something versus like, God, no, we don't even go there because we're just not even going to touch that. Yes, that interference is key. It's going to be something that's not just picky eater, like annoying. is a concern. Does that make sense? Yeah.
Vanessa (43:30.914)
they'll find something that they can figure it out.
Lauren (43:38.494)
Yep. Yep.
Lauren (43:45.16)
It really impacts your day to day.
Lauren (43:54.752)
Interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (43:58.552)
I was gonna just bring up the topic of like culture. So we talked a little bit about like family going over and family saying, are you gonna eat that? More on the like side of, you need to be thin sort of thing. not, you have to watch what you eat so you're thin. But it's interesting because I think some people who are like, first generation born in the US come from families where it's the opposite. Where being a little thicker is what is kind of feminine in that culture or.
is what's kind of sought after in that culture. And then, but then you're here, right? You're growing up here in the US and it's a very, you know, it may be more focused on the thin. So it's that kind of struggle between, you know, how do I identify culturally to like assimilate to kind of US culture, which kind of has been for many years, like thinner is better sort of thing. And then how do I tie that into
my family whose culture is, you no, you want to be a little plump, a little round, right? Like that's better. And then struggling then to kind of figure out where, you know, how to identify with my kind of background versus what my peers look like around me.
Wilhelmina (45:08.563)
Absolutely. I think what you're kind of even talking about, like culturally, one, there used to be a more cultural diversity where you didn't see eating disorders in much in certain groups. And that has actually changed now with the introduction of the internet, social media, all of that, and gender. Yes, yes. That now it's like, it crosses all lines. But what I talk a lot about
Vanessa (45:25.004)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Teri (45:29.027)
and gender and genders.
Wilhelmina (45:38.723)
with the people I work with, it's accepting their body the way it is. So we all have sort of the genetics at play of what your body is gonna look like, where your kind of weight set point, if you will, is going to be. And we talk a lot about weight set point is basically, you know your body is where it's meant to be. If you are eating in a non-disordered way, so you're eating and...
Vanessa (46:05.272)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (46:07.205)
you are exercising in, you're doing something, but you're not eating or you're not working out in a disordered way too much, not at all. And you're just kind of moving and living and whatever. That's where your weight's supposed to be. If you are restricting what you're eating to control your size, that's not your set point. If you're over-exercising to control your size, that's not your weight set point. So I would say culturally, like let's say,
your body size, your body type is going to be curvier. We do a lot of work with like, let's work with that. And what does it look like to sort of accept that this is the size and this is what my body is supposed to look like and celebrate that versus I don't fit into this mold. And it is hard. It is hard, especially for young adults. they're like, I mean, I have a lot of people who they have more of it. Like they were like, I was an athlete. I had an athletic build and all my friends were like these little toothpicks. And I was like,
Lauren (46:51.476)
Right.
Vanessa (47:02.765)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (47:05.723)
I can't shop at Abercrombie for kids because I don't fit into that. So we talk about it and we talk about the sadness of that because sometimes there's sort of a sadness and just sort of not that's, I thought this is what I wanted to look like and I'm not ever going to look like that and that's okay. So we talk, it's a very, there's a lot of aspects to it, but body size acceptance and finding comfort in the way that your body is and.
Lauren (47:08.36)
Right. Right.
Vanessa (47:21.911)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (47:35.047)
Finding beauty in that, hopefully, would be the goal.
Vanessa (47:37.474)
Yeah. And I mentioned that last time we talked about fashion, about how I'm Brazilian, I got a booty and I got a waist, know, and for a long time when I was, when I can think back to being a teen and being like, I don't look like the people that I'm seeing in magazines. And I can remember my family saying like, of course you don't, like, you you're Latin, like, and this is great. And it took me, you know, to getting into adulthood to be like, yeah, like I can accept who I am. And I like the way that I look, you know, and.
Wilhelmina (47:43.047)
Yes, yes, yes.
Wilhelmina (48:06.002)
Yes.
Vanessa (48:06.784)
And I don't have to look like someone else to feel good. But yeah, I think that takes a lot of maturity and building that confidence and having that. And I know that's something that I try very hard to instill in my daughter. When I'm working out, I'm telling her, I want to be strong is what I tell her. I'm like, so important. So she sees me lifting weights. And she's like, mom, I want to lift weights too. I want to be strong. And I'm like, yes, that's great. That's the kind of message that I'm trying to send to her.
Wilhelmina (48:13.925)
Mm-hmm, it does.
Wilhelmina (48:25.203)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (48:31.474)
Yes.
Absolutely, it's so true. And I think about our generation of the Victoria's Secret models and how much damage that did, which is like, here, you need to be this tiny with big boobs, a flat stomach, and all of this. And I was like, it ruined an entire generation of people thinking like this is, why can't my body look like this? I'm like, because very few people's bodies look like that.
Lauren (48:41.94)
Yeah.
Vanessa (48:42.2)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (48:45.685)
Yeah.
Vanessa (48:46.936)
Yeah.
Lauren (48:49.438)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (48:56.19)
Right? Right?
Vanessa (48:56.426)
Yeah.
Teri (49:03.08)
Right, and most of that's surgically enhanced.
Wilhelmina (49:05.081)
Right, right, right. So, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Vanessa (49:05.368)
Great.
Lauren (49:05.758)
Right? Or digitally enhanced. Enhanced. Yeah. yeah. Exactly.
Teri (49:11.398)
Right, both, right.
Wilhelmina (49:13.575)
Well, and it's interesting because now Victoria's Secret is actually trying to do much better with body. Yes. And I had a girlfriend of mine show a picture of like an online underwear ad. And it was kind of more, I would just say average size person in this underwear and said, what are our thoughts on this? And I was like, well.
Vanessa (49:18.283)
be more inclusive with sizes and body of data.
Lauren (49:18.922)
more inclusivity. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (49:35.155)
I love this. And it was interesting, the conversation, it sparked because it was sort of like, they were still fighting against sort of this idea of what a model should look like versus real. And they were able to recognize like, it feels weird to see this. And yet I love that that's what it is. But then, and I said, I just think it's great. I said, because more people are going to look at that and think that's normal, as opposed to why don't I look like that?
Vanessa (49:44.632)
should look like, yeah.
Lauren (49:46.848)
Wait.
Lauren (49:55.711)
Yeah.
Vanessa (49:58.028)
Yeah. Right. And that's how I'm going to look like in that clothes, right? Because that's a huge piece of it is looking at that and be like, I'm not going look like that. This body is not going to look like that. I'm 5'3". That girl's 5'10". So seeing those more kind of typical kind of average, you know, bodies gives people, people who are mostly average size can look at that and say like, that's how I'm going to look like in that. And so I think it is very helpful to see the different body sizes so that we can see.
Wilhelmina (50:02.191)
Yes, yes.
Lauren (50:08.224)
night.
Wilhelmina (50:12.296)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (50:21.927)
Yes, it is.
Vanessa (50:26.88)
see ourselves. We talked about that, like, I can see myself in that person and, you know, that makes me feel like good, right?
Wilhelmina (50:28.179)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (50:33.361)
Yeah, absolutely.
Vanessa (50:35.69)
Any other questions or thoughts for today?
Teri (50:41.336)
I think this was good, it was very helpful. Thank you, Wilhelmina.
Vanessa (50:42.23)
Yeah, yes, thank you. Yes, thank you so much. And thank you everyone for listening in to our discussion on eating disorders. If you or someone you know is struggling, support is available. We will be providing resources on our website, which you can find at www.theshrinkdown.com. Please join us next time on The Shrinkdown.
Lauren (50:44.436)
Yeah, thank you.
Wilhelmina (50:44.465)
Yeah, absolutely.