The Due Dilly Podcast | Why Creators Are Worth Billions

Everyone is talking about the 'creator economy'. But what does it mean? What makes a "creator" a "creator"? And why is Wall Street pumping billions into it?

In this episode, (and this season)  we are focused on unpacking what the creator economy is,   how is it is being value, what is underpinning it, and how creators are starting to take on investment  If you're a creator yourself, work in media, entertainment, or finance, this is for you.


Things You'll Learn: 

• Why (and how) money is flowing into creators and tools they use 
• How ownership of the full value chain flips leverage 
• How creators are becoming investible (and why that matters)

In this episode, we cover:

• (00:00) - Introduction to Due Dilly
• (00:31) - What is the Creator Economy?
• (03:55) - Goldman Sachs Report: The $500B Creator Economy
• (08:50) - The Shift from Traditional Intermediaries
• (13:31) - How Creators Own the Entire Value Chain
• (17:22) - The Future of Angel Investing in Creators
• (18:48) - Where the Money is Coming From
• (19:23) - Slow Ventures: Investing Directly in Creators
• (20:31) - Case Study: Jonathan Katz Moses - Woodworking Empire
• (23:07) - Building Your Own Mini Home Depot
• (23:57) - VCs Investing in Creator Infrastructure
• (28:05) - The Scale of Capital Deployment
• (29:16) - Leveraging Multiple Platforms
• (32:51) - Private Equity Enters the Creator Economy
• (36:37) - Understanding Different Investment Perspectives
• (38:07) - Thinking Like a Company, Not Just Talent
• (41:05) - YouTube's Dominance: 13% of All TV Consumption
• (44:01) - Case Study: Zach Bia and Field Trip Records
• (47:20) - Closing Thoughts: Follow the Money

Key References:

• Goldman Sachs report: https://creatorswithinfluence.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/Goldman-Sachs-Global-Investment-Research-Creator-Economy-Framing-Market-Opportunity-Download-Report-March-26-2025.pdf
  
  
• Doug Shapiro: https://dougshapiro.substack.com/p/tectonic-trends-in-media
  
  
• Mary Meeker Internet Trends https://www.bondcap.com/#specialreports
  
  
• Slow Ventures Investment https://slowupload.beehiiv.com/p/our-first-creator-fund-investment-jonathan-katz-moses

Extensive linked references: https://dub.sh/DDSources 

Follow Due Dilly on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/duedillypod/

Subscribe to Due Dilly on Youtube: https://ggl.link/DueDillyYT

Creators and Guests

Host

Carl Joseph-Black

Host

Jonathan Jackson

What is The Due Dilly Podcast ?

Cinematic deep dives into the details, decisions, and documents that make markets and culture move. Hosts Jonathan Jackson and Carl Joseph-Black go behind the headlines and into the paperwork to unpack what's happening and how it happened across culture. We explore structures, thesis, and new markets, using deep research and cultural fluency. If you're a CEO, investor, creator, or just trying to learn something new, this is for you.

The money is always talking. We help you listen.

[00:00:00]

[00:00:00] Introduction to Due Dilly
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[00:00:00] The British Narrator: Hello, glad you could join us. What you are about to hear is not financial advice, legal counsel, or investment instruction. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are only those of the hosts and guests and do not comprise professional advice. Due dearly follows where money flows and what is impacted because of it.

You'll hear references to things that will always be available in the show description or episode notes for you to dive deeper into and check out. Enjoy the show.

[00:00:31] What is the Creator Economy?
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[00:00:31] Carl Joseph-Black: what's going on y'all? My name's Carl Joseph Black.

[00:00:34] Jonathan Jackson: I'm Jonathan Jackson

[00:00:36] Carl Joseph-Black: and this is Dilly. Welcome. We're finally back from a three year hiatus. For those who are new to the game, Jon, let's tell 'em what Dilly is.

[00:00:48] Jonathan Jackson: Do. Dilly is a show about deals, paperwork, and how they connect across media, finance and the wider creator economy. I'm an entrepreneur and [00:01:00] operator.

Carl is a lawyer that works across ventures and debt. And so we take our expertise and we break down what's happening, why it matters, and how you can build the things you want to build right now and tomorrow.

[00:01:12] Carl Joseph-Black: And today we're talking about the creative economy. A lot of folks have been talking about the creator economy for a while.

There's been tons of news, tons of new people entering the space and, you know as a result, you know, a certain group of people got really interested in the last few years and what the creator economy is and what it has to offer. And that group of people is Wall Street. Wall Street is dumping money into the creator economy.

That's the thing with Wall Street. Wall Street has always been obsessed with one thing, and that's turning culture into capital. They did it with radio and [00:02:00] tv. They did it with Hollywood Studios, movies all types of films. The entire industry, they financialize that they financialize music and for them they're seeing.

This entire cultural shift coming online and they're saying, okay, it's time for us to figure out a way to financialize that. And the question is, why is that? But before we get into that, what is the creator economy? What do you think, Jon? What is the creator economy?

[00:02:36] Jonathan Jackson: It's a lot of things, but I found a definition by a.

Writer and financial analyst named Kyla Scanlan. She describes the Creator economy as a system that's decentralized open source, and allows individuals to own the creative output. So we should break down what all three of those things mean. Decentralized. It means that you can be an independent economic actor so you can be free [00:03:00] moving in the system.

Open source means it's available to the widest amount of people possible through the distribution of the internet. 'cause on the internet there are no borders. Own your creative output means that the creator is an economic definition. Being used as a cultural one. So that means that while we are all creative as people, I think we all have the ability to be creative.

Being a creator is what happens when you are able to monetize some of that impact for yourself. And so sometimes the definition of being a creator is used as a defining factor of a person where being a creative is actually something that doesn't require you to be qualified as a creator to do it. So that's important.

'cause I think as we talk about this, those words get used interchangeably, but they're actually not, one is an economic definition and one is a way of life. And I think if you get those two things mixed up, it can kind of get hazy in terms of what you want to do and what you care about.

[00:03:55] Goldman Sachs Report: The $500B Creator Economy
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[00:03:55] Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah, and that's the thing, as folks continue to [00:04:00] pour money into this industry, you're actually gonna start seeing.

The economic actors and the folks who are identifying themselves as creators, some of them are gonna meld together, but some of them are actually gonna be distinct, and that's gonna be interesting moving forward when we think about who it is that ends up being funded. When we think about folks who are landing larger brand deals or how different creators are actually achieving economies of scale, these are some of the things that like investors are going to use to actually delineate folks.

So when you hear somebody on CNBC say, Hey, we're investing in the creator economy. Like they're talking about a very specific type of creator. And one of the things that we're going [00:05:00] to be focusing on in this season is ensuring that at the very least, you can choose to qualify for what that type of creator is.

But at least understanding like what are the metrics, what are the structures that they're looking into? But I think. The first thing we should probably start with is what the signal was. And to me the big, the major signal that kind of told folks, Hey, wall Street money's coming, is the Goldman Sachs report from earlier this year.

I believe it's from March, 2025, that basically said, Hey the creator economy is gonna be worth. $500 billion by 2027. I don't know. Jon, what are your thoughts?

[00:05:55] Jonathan Jackson: Yeah, so I think there's two things. One, Goldman made that announcement of [00:06:00] sort of the total market size in 2023, and that sort of 480 500 billion numbers thrown around everywhere.

VCs use it, creators use it. The street uses it. And I think that's important because when you have something that's. New and is developing. It's hard to anchor it because people haven't seen it before and we haven't seen it this way. This report from March, 2025 comes out of their America's technology group and it's really important because what it does is it takes that $480 billion number that they anchored in 2023, and it expands on the infrastructure.

So one of the things that they cover in the report is this idea that there is an actual expansion of what. The creator economy is not simply for the people that are making things, but the infrastructure that supports the making of things. So in Goldman Sachs' construct, they talk about six distinct businesses to them that represent.

What and how the creator economy [00:07:00] gets built. So they talk about meta, right? So when we talk about meta, we're talking about WhatsApp, we're talking about Facebook, we're talking about Instagram. They talk about Alphabet, right? The largest store of the world's information index that you can search. We're talking about YouTube, right?

And we'll get into that later. But YouTube has essentially replaced the traditional notions of how TV functions in our everyday life. They're talking about Spotify, right? Musicians are also creators. Spotify reimagined, how you could do Streaming along with some other players in the game. They're also talking about Webtoon.

Webtoon is a business that focuses on Anime, Magna, which are huge communities of both cartoon fans, anime fans, and people that are interested in sort of that entire ecosystem and structure. And so when you think about those businesses and what those businesses mean, Goldman's entire purpose is to think about.

How creators are building increasingly large businesses and how these tools, [00:08:00] these enablement tools, are helping creators establish deeper relationships with users, with other entities. And then more broadly, how they're able to monetize their influence and create and fund sustainable businesses that are then interesting for larger forms of capital to take part.

[00:08:21] Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah. What makes this interesting is that Goldman, at least from my interpretation of the report, Goldman's whole thing, at least their stance is, Hey the creator infrastructure is done and. It is time for us to actually start looking beneath the hood and seeing what the actors are doing on here.

[00:08:50] The Shift from Traditional Intermediaries
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[00:08:51] Carl Joseph-Black: Which is actually like interesting in two ways. One because. It [00:09:00] tells me, okay, great. We kind of know who are the people who are gonna, basically gonna manage the rails. It's I'm looking at it from the perspective of a financial system. And when you're thinking about it from there, it's as if you know, Hey, we just made Swift, so SWIFT is done.

So anybody who makes a bank now can just jump on Swift. These companies that Goldman mentioned, Instagram, Facebook. WhatsApp, YouTube these are now the rails. So if you're a creator, you're probably gonna be using these platforms, right? And now it's who are going to be the folks that are gonna build the best creator type infrastructure, the type the best creator businesses.

So if you're looking at it from the perspective that I shared earlier so now that the rails exist, who's going to build the best bank that serves X, Y, [00:10:00] Z, A, B, C? Who serves this part of the US versus that part of the us and. Who are we gonna choose to invest in from here moving forward? Now the other interesting thing is what you stated earlier in terms of the group that actually published it.

Goldman's technology group because Goldman is super well known for their m and a work in telecom, media and technology. They are basically the tier one. Financial institution for those mega type deals. So if you're hearing of a huge media company either getting bought or sold, usually is Goldman Sachs.

That's the investment banker structuring that deal, putting that deal together. So it coming directly from the equity research department of the t and t division is [00:11:00] actually really interesting because basically they're saying, yo, we're watching. But we're gonna give y'all the report. Y'all are gonna definitely have access to that for download.

'cause you know, we never talk about anything without sourcing it directly. But what I also want to do is kind of give people the why, right? Yeah. The why is some of what Jon mentioned a bit earlier in terms of how the entire structure of consuming television content or content in general has completely shifted.

It's crazy because what used to be, and when I say used to be what last. 10, 15 years. Yeah. 20, probably. 20. Yeah. [00:12:00] It was, Hey, somebody's a creator. They create something on film. They create some sort of work that they want to see viewed by. Everyone else, and they would have to go through what they call traditional intermediaries.

And the traditional intermediaries would be your Netflixes, your Apple TVs, your cable TVs your Turners. And if you're a person that makes video games that used to have to be like Activision or Rockstar but that. Used to be the exact road to get to your consumer. But that's completely changed now because now what has happened is that has turned into a fully decentralized group of tech companies.

And now that's your YouTubes, your Spotifys, your SoundClouds, your sub stacks. Folks are using blockchain now to create [00:13:00] games and publish those directly. Apple still is a little bit involved, but with those folks, what they're doing is they're becoming game publish, self game publishers and then publishing them through Apple.

But everybody's going direct to consumer instead of actually working with these intermediaries. And what they're doing is they're just leveraging those platforms. To give access for the consumer instead of actually going through the traditional intermediaries that I mentioned before and basically getting an approval to talk to

[00:13:31] How Creators Own the Entire Value Chain
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[00:13:31] Carl Joseph-Black: those folks.

I wanna know what your thoughts on that, Jon.

[00:13:35] Jonathan Jackson: Yeah, I'm interested in the scope between how those things change. So in the historical context, you would go through that process of ideation, production, marketing, distribution, monetization, and the. Creative as a function of that would be your writer, your musician director of photography [00:14:00] animator, VFX, artist, producer, makeup artist.

So that would sort of be in the creative bucket, and then the traditional intermediaries would probably hire those people to facilitate the work of getting that to the market. And then you have the consumption for the consumer. The massive change that I think has shifted things is that. All of those five steps, including monetization.

So ideation two monetization can now happen in the hands of the creator. So I can start my idea and use AI to help work it out. I can then go into production. Maybe I do. Mood board using Mid Journey and Gemini. I can think about what my marketing assets are and then I can test them via Facebook ads because I already made the marketing copy.

I can then plan the distribution through a platform like a YouTube or a Spotify video. Then I can think about monetization if I have a private community through a Patreon or through a paid subscription, and [00:15:00] all of that happens with me. So what I have to decide is if I want to use an enabling platform, which platform I want to use, and how much of a subscription price I want to pay before I pass that savings or price increase off to the consumer.

And what that means is that value chain can be owned by me. Specifically, and if I own that, then I can actually change my value relative to what the market says. 'cause I don't actually need as many people anymore. I don't need mass distribution. I need the right rails to get to the consumer I care about.

And what's interesting to me. Is that actually becomes really attractive for outside capital because if you're able to attract a specific amount of people to take buying behaviors over a long period of time, that's a business. And if you can use the internet to scale that business, that's a business that might actually be sensitive or interested in outside capital.

And outside [00:16:00] capital always wants to be returned. So if I want my capital returned, I need to look for environments or assets that are not necessarily responsive to the market. So I'm looking for outsized returns without having to deal in the traditional sort of s and p environment and creator businesses actually can exist in a non-correlated fashion.

Giving me the new sort of. Interest in my portfolio of businesses that I otherwise wouldn't have access to that I didn't even know people would buy. Like I didn't even know this Many people cared in about this many things, but the community aspect of how these businesses work mean that there's entire genres of business that are getting built overnight that nobody knew existed, right?

Like podcasting. What we're doing here was not a thing people were thinking about. People like us just showing up to a studio, recording, having a fire producer [00:17:00] do a switch with us. Big shout out to Wolf, bro. Yeah. That wasn't a thing that existed before it existed. And so I think the ability to do that has, as the price of technology lowers, the price of attention increases.

And so now it's a question of how do I get as much attention towards the thing I'm doing and direct that attention for people to take action.

[00:17:22] The Future of Angel Investing in Creators
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[00:17:22] Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah. So like for me. It looks like when you were, you know, 10 years ago, you're an angel investor. And you probably put together like a holding company to invest in startups.

You're like, yeah, I'm invested in Uber, I'm invested in Stripe, I'm invested in Pinterest. I'm invested in all of these new hot startups, right? Airbnb and as an angel investor, that's like your claim to fame. It's kind of like how you see Jason Calanacis or Gary Vee say I'm the third, or the first or the second investor in Uber, right?

[00:18:00] To me, the next like iteration of that is, Hey, I'm the first investor in Mr. Beast. I'm the first investor in Cash Cobain. I'm the first investor in, insert whatever cool creator is actually building like a strong, scalable business. And that's what the future of portfolios kind of look like. And if they do look like that.

That's the reason why Goldman is sounding the alarm. So I guess that leads us to kind of discuss a bit about where the money's coming from. Who's out here saying, yo I want to get into this.

[00:18:48] Where the Money is Coming From
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[00:18:48] Jonathan Jackson: So I, I think I want to segment this in two. Frames. There's the people who invest directly in creators, and then there are people who are investing in enablement tools or infrastructure [00:19:00] that support the economy.

So if we were gonna talk about sort of a direct investment into a person, we need to look at Slow Ventures. Slow Ventures is a early stage venture fund that invests in technology businesses. And they've been very successful doing it. Recently, they rolled out a $60 million creator fund to invest specifically into creators in their businesses.

[00:19:23] Slow Ventures: Investing Directly in Creators
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[00:19:23] Jonathan Jackson: They have a really specific thesis. It lands on three points. One, they believe creators are CEOs, so select creators are not just. Producers of content, but they're founders who are building scalable media companies with diverse revenue streams. Two, capital without control. So their deal structure, they invest for a share of future earnings rather than equity.

So they do not take equity in the creative they invest in. They instead take shares of future profits. What that creates is the kind of alignment where they are actually not. In control of how the creator [00:20:00] operates their business. They can work as a partner in the long term of that creator. So they're trying to test out their thesis because if they're right and they are early, they get rewarded with more deal flow.

Three, they think beyond sponsorships, so they believe the most valuable creators will build sustainable businesses outside of brand deals and ad revenue, which includes products, services, and other scalable income streams that you would look for in a different business. They did their first $2 million investment in a guy named Jonathan Katz, Moses.

[00:20:31] Case Study: Jonathan Katz Moses - Woodworking Empire
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[00:20:31] Jonathan Jackson: His story is wild. So this guy in 2015 has a life altering event and assault. He almost dies. He decides that he's not gonna waste his life anymore, and he goes, I'm gonna do what I think I'm here to. So he starts building woodworking tutorial videos out of 120 foot shed he has in his backyard. No problem.

Super interesting. Over time, he grows a massive [00:21:00] following. I wanna read from the. Investment memo we got from Slow Ventures. It says since 2015 he's published 300 videos and accumulated 75 million views. He founded KM tools, selling woodworking and accessories directly to his audience. He recently relocated operations to a three to a 33,000 square foot facility to support increased output.

His original content serves as a critical marketing engine, building trust, educating viewers. And generating product demand. He currently leads a team of 15 across content creation, tool production, fulfillment and operations. Having bootstrapped the company from inception. Cool. So just a couple things here, right?

This guy built a woodworking business after almost dying, has scaled it for the past 10 years, never took outside. Capital [00:22:00] is working out of a 30,000 square foot environment, has a team of 15, some of which you're doing content. I just wanna call that out. Like he has people dedicated to the media and capturing what he does.

The global woodworking tools market is projected to surpass 10 billion by 2030, driven by increased interest in DIY projects, maker culture, and home improvements. Jonathan's content flywheel has enabled him to profitably scale his business to mid seven figures in annual revenue. Approximately 70% comes from proprietary and patented products.

He increased in-house manufacturing and has full control over his fulfillment. So this means he owns his supply chain, so he makes a video. The tool in the video is something he made and has a patent for. He then tells you where to buy it, which is on his website. When you buy it, that means he fulfills it.

He also has the patent, which means if you wanted to use it, you'd have to pay him [00:23:00] to white label it. Then he sends it directly to your house, which means he can actually pass on the savings to you because he doesn't have to use another fulfillment.

[00:23:07] Building Your Own Mini Home Depot
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[00:23:07] Carl Joseph-Black: Yo, that boy's a dog. He's a. Because this is what's crazy.

Like that man is basically running his own mini Home Depot. Correct. And that's, and he started off making videos. Yeah. And that's the opportunity that creators have and it's part of why we're doing what we're doing. Because like it's important for us to actually show people that it's not about just, oh, let me make a video or let me just post some stuff on social, then make some T-shirts, flip those, and then after I flip those T-shirts, I got a business, right?

Like you can actually think creatively about what it is that you wanna build and build something with infrastructure. Like

[00:23:57] VCs Investing in Creator Infrastructure
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[00:23:57] Jonathan Jackson: Jonathan did. It's incredible. I wanna [00:24:00] also, I'm gonna do a, what's called a speed run. So I want to talk about a few other firms that instead of investing in creators directly, they invest in the tools directly, if that's cool.

And then we're gonna also talk about some private equity firms who Oh yeah. Invest in the other things. But for this section, cut to get juicy, bro, I wanna, I want to bring out the money on bonnet. Oh, get it. It's important. It's important that people understand, huh? I need, I don't know. They said they didn't have you.

They said it. It's for the eclipse. Gotta. It's for the eclipse. You gotta do it. Alright. So Ali Corp, a New York based venture fund and incubator focused on early stage tech. They invest in shop mice. That's an affiliate social commerce platform for creators to monetize influence. Agen an advertising platform for purpose built creator content.

And they invested in Vault Labs. Such a digital music collectibles platform for new ways for music artists to share and monetize content. Bain Capital Ventures, that's the VC arm of Bain Capital Company investing seed all the way to growth. They invested in wp, which is the social commerce platform [00:25:00] that lets online creators and entrepreneurs launch hubs.

To sell digital products. They invested in Crea, a generative AI platform for visual creatives. They invested in Shop my again hustle Fund. It's a pre-seed and seed stage firm that views individual creators as small businesses. Often they invest, they invested in a startup called Punch Up Live, which.

They define as Shopify for comedians. It allows comedy creators to promote shows and sell tickets directly to fans. Fabric, a hybrid coworking space and online platform for in real life communities. Yuzu Labs, a generative AI video and avatar creation tool. Knight Ventures Knight is a talent management company.

Of creators like Kai, ot, they also have a fund. They invested in outtake ai, an AI tool to protect creators, brands, and businesses from deep fakes and identity misuse. Super important trivio, a platform that enables creators to license their videos and other content for training data. Bond capital. Bond capital is a global venture firm.

Growth stage focused, led by a woman named Mary Meeker, who runs [00:26:00] an elite level research report she's been doing since 1995. They invested in what? Not What nots? A live shopping platform lets creators and sellers host realtime auctions and shopping streams. They invested in Substack, newest, a hundred million dollar round.

Substack is the newsletter publishing platform that enables independent writers and creators to monetize through paid subscriptions. Patron is a seed stage consumer tech fund founded by former Riot games executives. These guys are investing exclusively and aggressively into gaming communities and things around them.

They invested in ego and AI gaming and simulation startup. Sweat Pals, a fitness community platform that provides tools for fitness creators to monetize their followings. Chronicle Studios a content studio that partners with top creators to develop new entertainment franchises, IP series and movers based on creator led concepts.

First market capital. They invest strongly in consumer technology. They were early in Pinterest and discord. Pinterest is a visual discovery platform. Discord is a [00:27:00] community-based platform that allows people to interact over the open web and also create different roles. Precursor Ventures, they're a pre-seed firm led by a guy named Charles Hudson.

They invested in rela a digital workspace for influencers and content creators. Clutch, a marketplace that connects digital creators and finally, spice capital. They are run by a woman named Maya Baka. Their thesis is that everyone's a creator. They invested in Beehive. It's a newsletter competitor to Substack.

They invested in Dirt. Dirt is a digital media company that started as a newsletter. Expanded into a network of niche content brands. They invested in Hype, which is an app for trading meme coins. Those are viral community driven cryptocurrencies that are often launched on Twitter or now known as X. They also invested in Moy.

Moy is a global streaming service and film distributor known for curating high quality independent films that are not dependent on traditional streamers, and they run a social network for cinephiles. Those are people who [00:28:00] love art noir and different types of film.

[00:28:05] The Scale of Capital Deployment
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[00:28:05] Jonathan Jackson: A lot of money is coming

[00:28:07] Carl Joseph-Black: not of vibe. Slow ventures. Slow ventures, their like creator fund I believe is $60 million. Is that correct? Correct. And all of these investments that you mentioned, all of this capital that's been deployed has been arguably in the last five years?

[00:28:24] Jonathan Jackson: Yeah. Some of 'em are early investments, right?

Like people were early in some of these companies like a Pinterest, like a Discord, but. That's still part of the creator economy. What's old is the rails now that people are riding on, right? Yeah. It's like MTA, it's like you don't know how old the tracks are, but they update the A train and they update the inside.

So that's the consumer. But the rails are already there, so you're not worried about whether the rails happen. What happens is when there's an issue on the track, your train slows down. So I think it's thinking about, this is an ecosystem that feeds itself. So a sub, someone on Substack has a paid subscription.[00:29:00]

Substack taking on capital is because their bet is that they can create an actual third space on the internet and they need capital to do it, but they need certain creators to choose Substack because that's a signal in the market that it's a good place to be.

[00:29:16] Leveraging Multiple Platforms
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[00:29:16] Carl Joseph-Black: What I find is that

the beauty of all of this is the fact that creators can actually leverage multiple platforms that we mentioned today. Really these platforms that we're talking about today just actually have to cater to a particular type of creator and have to create an ecosystem within it to incentivize the creator to use it the most.

And when I think about that, I think about like Joe Budden and. His usage of Patreon, right? Like I wonder how many creators were just like, yo, Joe Budden own Patreon, so I'm finna just run my joint on Patreon, right? And he's able to run a successful business on there, so I'm gonna follow that. But you don't necessarily have to stick to that particular platform [00:30:00] because there are so many other platforms that are going to serve your particular type of business.

And then on top of that, like your funnel could be a completely different funnel. And we'll kind of go into what. Different options you have in terms of infrastructure and building that up, in a later episode. But these are some of the things that as a creator, you need to really start thinking about, right?

Your artistry is literally just what the consumer sees, but your ability to continue building out your artistry is something that you can actually do. If you actually put a, I hate to say it and I hate to mix these two things up, but you gotta kind of put your corporate hat on, right?

Like creators are almost operating like the new startups. And if that's what they're doing, then you actually have to create and manage your joint like [00:31:00] a startup would be managed. And I also find it interesting that this is a market and economy that's like really opening up to investors because.

Now it becomes do you invest in a traditional startup or do you invest in a creator? And the other thing is our startups basically going to be creator driven. One of the things that we're seeing in the market too is that a lot of companies are literally hiring creators as jobs. So what used to be back in the day as a career in marketing or a career in public relations now is just a creator position, right? And a lot of brands are actually going into the space where they're allowing creators to operate these side [00:32:00] social media pages for them to be ambassadors for the brand.

On that platform, but also to test out new concepts, new hooks, new plays, new media types to reach a particular audience. And if they are successful in that, then they actually roll them into the main page, their main feat. So creators are playing such a larger role in the overall economy that, you know, back in the day when you used to say, yeah, mom, I want to grow up and be a YouTuber.

And your parents used to laugh at you. Today might be the day you might wanna show them this video and tell 'em what now. I don't know. I feel like it's time for them to say what now? And the reason why I feel that way is because of all the data we presented today. I don't know. What are your thoughts, Jon?

[00:32:51] Private Equity Enters the Creator Economy
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[00:32:51] Jonathan Jackson: Yeah, I just wanna keep talking about this money. Okay. Back to the private equity firms real quick. So there's also a [00:33:00] larger conversation around. These larger agencies and structures that have been in sort of entertainment and media that are actually growing and expanding into the business of creators, right?

So private equity firms have been sort of funding these brands with proven revenue or proven talent rosters, or even talent management agencies. So I wanna talk about a few of those because I think when we see. Sort of large movements that happen in these spaces. We don't always think about the capital required to do it.

And I think that's very important because that capital actually flows into and across the ecosystem and it affects the total value of the market. I don't know, can you explain that a little differently for me? Private equity is in the business of taking an existing company. And [00:34:00] creating more growth so that you can actually take that business and have it be acquired for more money.

Yeah. Or actually move that business. When we think about creators in the creator economy, it's important to talk about the creator economy is not just a YouTuber. It is the tools and services that person might use, and then it is the talent agency that might sign that person who was very good at using those tools and grew.

So that's still part of the creator economy, which is why a private equity firm like Blackstone would invest in candle media, which is Hello Sunshine and Moon Bug Entertainment. Those are wreath Witherspoon's company. And so Moon Bug also started with YouTube kids franchises like Coco Melon and Blippy.

And so if you think about what Coco Melon did on the internet, if you had kids. You didn't hear about Coco Melon. I don't know where you were. I

[00:34:52] Carl Joseph-Black: mean, once you put Coco Melon on, bro it's like the kids are possessed,

[00:34:57] Jonathan Jackson: but Blackstone saw that and [00:35:00] was like, yeah, for sure. I think you'd like some money.

We like that. They also invested in Epidemic Sound for $450 million. Epidemic Sound is a platform that provides royalty free music for online creators. And also allows artists to put their music into that platform and get sync deals and rights. And so if you're Blackstone, you're looking for what is an outsized return on investment that's not correlated with the stock market music royalties.

So that's a good use of my money. Yeah. KKR Put money in ByteDance. What's By dance? The parent company of TikTok. Good money. Ah, SoftBank. SoftBank put money in jelly smack. Jelly smack helps digital video creators maximize their reach and revenue. Pretty good use of money. Carlisle Entertainment 360.

They took a minority stake in a talent and literary management company known for representing [00:36:00] actors, writers, and the creators behind shows like Game of Thrones. This was the first time Entertainment 360 took outside funding in its 20 year history. The management firm's board said the future of entertainment will more than ever be shaped by entrepreneurial talent.

Providence Equity Partners took a significant stake in Wasserman to bolster the agency's growth in representing athletes and creators. Wasserman then went out and bought Brillstein Entertainment Partners, a Hollywood management firm.

[00:36:37] Understanding Different Investment Perspectives
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[00:36:37] Jonathan Jackson: It said. Better service its clients as they pursue deals related to content creation. So I guess the reason I wanna talk about money and can remove the money bonnet is really that when we have this conversation, everyone is watching what happens. The question is, what vantage point are they watching from, are they watching [00:37:00] as a consumer?

Are they watching as an investor? Are they watching as a person who's man, the market's actually moving towards this kind of. Behavior. And so what bet and what thesis am I willing to put money and capital behind for where I see things growing? And that to me is actually the story underneath the they're just a YouTuber or I don't understand streaming.

It's like willful ignorance doesn't make you a good analyst, it just makes you a bozo. So the question is, if these things are all happening in their public. Why are people putting money into it? And our thesis and our belief is it comes down to consumption habits. Linear TV is diving, streaming is splintered.

Advertising dollars is shifting. And so the cre, the eyeballs are on creators, right? And so if the eyeballs are on creators and the creators are actually able to move markets and have people make [00:38:00] decisions. I want to be a part of that because there's an economic incentive to be there.

[00:38:07] Thinking Like a Company, Not Just Talent
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[00:38:07] Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah. I feel that for me, the way I viewed everything that you've said is that

as a creator you have to actually think about yourself a little bit more. Yeah. So you're not just onscreen talent anymore. You are the face of a company. And when you're that you have to actually think differently, move differently. You actually have to think. What might be 10, 20, 30 steps ahead of what it is that you're doing.

There actually has to be a level of intentionality behind what it is that you're trying to put together.

[00:38:51] Jonathan Jackson: Yeah.

[00:38:51] Carl Joseph-Black: So if you're saying, Hey, I'm gonna make content today. It's not about saying, Hey, we're gonna make content about [00:39:00] dancing. It's, hey I think one day I wanna open a dance company.

Hey, I think I want to actually create a new tap shoe, right? And what you're doing is you're using the content as a vehicle to not only communicate that to a particular audience, but to also gather data behind whether that's some, that's actually a viable venture, right? I also think if you're a creator now at least based on our analysis today.

It's actually identifying like open markets. Yeah. It's sitting down saying, Hey, like I've actually found a market where there's a need for a particular type of product, or there actually needs to be a particular type of perspective in a particular space. Kind of like Jonathan's example earlier with Jonathan who said, Hey, [00:40:00] wood woodworking is kind of boring right now.

Let's actually start making some videos about our interest in woodworking, and then let's see how that goes. So like these ideas behind what's available out there and being the creator to communicate that and build that audience out. And once you're able to build that, then it's saying, Hey, what kind of structural business am I gonna build under that?

And it doesn't have to be t-shirts. No disrespect to t-shirt makers, but we don't have to keep making t-shirts in order to build a real business. We've listed out a bunch of examples, platforms that have been invested in types of businesses that have been built, where going to merch does not necessarily have to be your immediate play.

It could be com something completely different, right? And because that opportunity exists. You shouldn't [00:41:00] miss it by only seeing one or two steps ahead of you.

[00:41:05] YouTube's Dominance: 13% of All TV Consumption
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[00:41:05] Jonathan Jackson: I agree. I think so.

Some new data came out in July of 2025. Nielsen is a market research company and they study consumer consumption habits in media all over the world. Every month they have something called the gauge report, which. Measures TV consumption in the United States across streaming cable and other sort of sources that people use.

The July data said that 47% of consumption was coming from streaming, right? So we know that's gonna continue to grow. But when you look at the graph and the breakdown, 13% of that is on YouTube. So that measurement is TV so that they're measuring people opening up YouTube on their TV at home, not mobile, on [00:42:00] tv, and watching content consuming shorts, letting the algo feed them.

And so I think that fragmentation is the norm, and I think that creators are the most efficient distribution source that's ever shown up. Period. And the street loves efficiency and it is way more efficient to move consumer products through a person than it is necessarily through a warehouse, because the supply chain starts with who's communicating where the value is.

And what's really exciting about this moment in time and why we're talking about this so aggressively is because this is a new economic reality that touches every facet of our lives. Anything you're interested in. There is a creator and a market being formed. Music, fashion, movies, fitness, politics, anything you touch.

There is a [00:43:00] economy around that with people who are interested in both consuming, engaging, and partnering. And creators are actually the linchpin between those things. They're setting taste, they're creating. New forms of consumption. They're breaking artists. You got people like Plaque Boy Max. There are things that are, that labels are shifting their attention and spend to engage and break artists through streamers.

They're showing up at live events, they're covering the Olympics. This is not some kind of fluke, and I think it's really important to be mindful of who dismisses what and what's the incentive to not pay attention. Our incentive is to showcase things that we think are relevant for you, things that you can embrace and take with you, and hopefully have a definitive impact on the things you wanna make and the things you care about building.

[00:43:55] Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah I think that's the what the best way to, in the [00:44:00] episode.

[00:44:01] Case Study: Zach Bia and Field Trip Records
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[00:44:01] Jonathan Jackson: Yo, your so was actually perfect. 'cause it's covering everything. I gotta be serious because I had this Bon on for a long time. If he facts weren't gonna cook me, they are. I don't have time for that.

[00:44:09] Carl Joseph-Black: But the Bon was fired, huh? Yeah, I know. I guess my parting words are. There's a lot going on in this space, and I'll just give y'all one example.

Zach Bia made a, his own label, it's called Field Trips. It's called Field Trip, right? Yeah. Field Trip, yeah. And his entire label is actually run on JVs. So what he does is what are JVs joint ventures? What he does is he goes to either artists or creators and he says, Hey we wanna help you continue building a relationship with your art, your audience.

We wanna be way more efficient than what a traditional label deal would do. And the reason why is [00:45:00] because a lot of. Existing labels don't necessarily have the ability to care for every single artist, and they're also not on the ground, not on social as much. To be able to stay on top of what audience tastes are and also do that effectively for every single artist that is signed to them.

So Field Trip actually just literally provides that service to artists, and then they enter a joint venture with a traditional label. That traditional label actually handles all of the infrastructural stuff. So it's your distribution, your publishing

Is handled. And they've got, they've signed Yeet, they've signed Plaque Boy Max and several others.

Zach Bia himself is not an artist, no rapper. He is none of that. He's just a dude who used to work at Delilah's. In [00:46:00] LA and he has built relationships over the past, over several years. And now he DJs, so he breaks artists, right? And that's effectively what he does. He is a creator that created a, what looks like, not necessarily the entire future of labels, but one vision for what.

The future label could be.

And I say that to say that I don't want anyone to be stuck behind any particular model that they hear us talk about or hear other people talk about, or hear other people do. But what your goal should be is to find all the bits and pieces that you believe work for you.

Then implement them yourself. Test them, try them [00:47:00] out and see if they work for you and if they work for your audience. And if they do, then you get to structure a business that works for you. Those are my part words. So I guess that's the end of episode one. Welcome back, Jon.

[00:47:20] Closing Thoughts: Follow the Money
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[00:47:20] Jonathan Jackson: It's good to be here.

[00:47:22] Carl Joseph-Black: We back, we out here and you know, the statement stays the same. Don't follow me, don't follow Jon. Don't follow us. Just follow the money.

[00:47:38] The British Narrator: Due Dilly is researched and hosted by Carl Joseph Black and Jonathan Jackson, audio engineering and camera operation by Wolf Taylor. Video editing by Sean Ferra and Stefan Lawrence Illustration and design by the Row Arts. Filmed on location at WTF Media Studios in New York City, and I'm [00:48:00] your reliable British narrator.

Born and raised in South London. For deeper insights and context, visit duethedilly.com That's D-U-E-T-H-E-D-I-L-L y.com. See you next time.