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Join host Linda Ostovitz each month for meaningful, practical discussions with guests who are on the cutting edge of business. They'll talk and you'll grow.
Linda Ostovitz: Hello everyone and
welcome to Real Talk Real Growth.
I'm Linda Ostovitz, the host of this show.
Those of you who know
me know I talk plain.
We talk real, therefore, we grow.
Today, I am thrilled to have
one of my dear friends with me
Cheryl Brown, who is an attorney.
I met Cheryl in Howard County, probably
as a result of our relationship through
the Howard County Chamber of Commerce,
but maybe even earlier than that.
And she has been historically in her
life labor and employment attorney
with a firm in Columbia, Maryland.
Not all that long ago made the decision
to leave us for which we are saddened,
but we understand that for her it was the
right decision and gave her an opportunity
that she was very interested in.
So we're gonna explore that
with Cheryl a little bit.
But first of all, Cheryl, welcome to
this podcast, Real Talk, Real Growth.
Thrilled that you said yes to me.
Cheryl Brown: Thank you so much, Linda.
Anytime that Linda and I can get
together and talk is always a
pleasurable experience, and I said
earlier that we could talk for hours,
so I'm happy that you invited me.
Linda Ostovitz: Thank you for saying yes.
Yes.
So as I have hinted a little bit in terms
of your career you were an attorney with
Davis, Agnor, Rapaport, and Skalny, which
is a well established Columbia law firm.
How long were you with them, Cheryl?
Cheryl Brown: 13 years.
Linda Ostovitz: Mm-hmm.
And you did practice primarily
in the labor and employment
field, is that correct?
Cheryl Brown: I did, yes.
The entire time.
Linda Ostovitz: Mm-hmm.
So not only were you practicing
as a lawyer for the firm, but
you were also very engaged in
the community in Howard County,
Cheryl Brown: I was.
Linda Ostovitz: So would you share
a little bit about what your other
engagement has been in the county?
Cheryl Brown: Absolutely.
Davis, Agnor, Rapaport, and Skalny, is
part of their values is the community
and it's one aspect of the firm that
I took seriously was always giving
back to the communities that we
served, which a lot of companies do.
But we were always encouraged to engage
with I guess charitable organizations,
business groups that really not only
focused on the clients that we serve,
but enhanced our practices as well.
So as a labor and employment attorney
within the business practice group,
we focused we were members of the
Howard County Chamber of Commerce.
I also was involved with SHRM, which
is the Society for HR Management.
Not only their local chapter,
but their national chapter.
I was also involved on the board at
Northwest Hospital, which is part of
LifeBridge Community and throughout
all of these organizations, even from
the beginning when I first joined the
firm, the best way to get involved in an
organization is to join a committee and.
Linda Ostovitz: Absolutely.
Cheryl Brown: That's how you
make connections, friends,
professional friends.
That's how you really become
invested in that organization.
So I just started volunteer for a
committee and kind of once you volunteer
for committee, you're off and running.
They look at you like, oh, we
have you if you're that person.
But, for me, it's easy to do that.
It's easy to give back and really become
engaged with that, especially with
the support of the firm that I had.
And that really became my family as
well, like my professional family.
But you make a lot of really
good friends along the way.
Linda Ostovitz: That's interesting
when you say you join a committee
and you're off and running and
Oh my, isn't that the truth?
But just to be clear when my
little spoiler alert here is when
Cheryl decided to leave Maryland.
She was the chair of the board of the
Howard County Chamber of Commerce so
off and running directly to the top to
be a little more precise is where she
was when she made the decision to leave.
So where are you from originally?
Cheryl Brown: So I grew up in North
Carolina in Winston-Salem, and my
entire family lives in North Carolina.
When I left after high school,
I had not really lived in North
Carolina since high school.
I went to college in Atlanta.
I worked in dc, went to
college in Pennsylvania.
My husband and I moved around
and we ended up in Maryland where
we were, 20 years in Maryland.
Three boys in Maryland.
So my, the majority of my adult
professional life has really been in
Maryland, so it was not an easy decision
to choose to leave for so many reasons,
but I grew up in North Carolina and that's
where my parents and family live, so that
was one of the decisions that we made.
Linda Ostovitz: Here you are, mid-career
at the top of your game, at the
top of your community involvement.
It must have been some really powerful
pulls, if you will, that caused you
to make the decision to leave Maryland
and you returned to North Carolina.
So first of all, where did
you go in North Carolina?
Cheryl Brown: Asheville, North
Carolina, which is in the western
part of the state and the mountains.
Linda Ostovitz: I've never been there,
but I've heard wonderful things about
how beautiful it is and how fun it is.
So we'll have to put that on
our list to visit you there.
So what made you leave your work
here and your life in Maryland
and move it to North Carolina?
Cheryl Brown: So as life goes,
you don't ever plan these things.
So it is just one of these opportunities
that came about and I think to your point.
I wasn't looking to leave my firm.
I wasn't looking to leave Maryland.
I think my husband and I had always
talked about ending up possibly
in Asheville, North Carolina, or
purchasing maybe a house, a second
house in Asheville, North Carolina.
'cause we love Asheville,
we love the mountains.
My boys went to camp there.
We vacation there, and it's only an
hour and a half from my parents, which
is in Winston-Salem, North Carolina.
So that was in the background.
So when you have an opportunity,
a professional opportunity that
presents itself in the place that
you've always thought you would
end up someday, you start looking
at things a little differently.
And I remember when I had the opportunity.
Crazy.
If you had asked me this a
year ago, I would've said, no,
this was never on the table.
But it piques your interest and I
think you have to look at things.
And I think my husband even said five to
seven years too soon we would be having
this conversation, but we're now having
this conversation, life throws it at you.
You have to have that conversation.
And I loved âDavis, Agnor,
Rapaport, and Skalny, I love my
professional friends in Maryland.
I love what I was doing.
There was no particularly reason
to say, oh, I have to move, but my
parents are older as they're aging.
There's no one here other than myself.
My sister's in Colorado.
It's an area we love and it's a completely
different professional opportunity.
And I love the name of your podcast
because if you don't challenge yourself
and you don't continue to move and take
risk or push yourself outside of the
comfortable box we live in, you don't
know the potential of your growth.
And I think from a
professional side, that was.
Very enticing to see if I could push
myself even, even in my fifties, which
is a crazy time to be thinking of this.
But yeah, I kind of took a risk
and pushed myself with all that
other stuff, being positive.
I knew I had kind of a comfort level
that, I could do it even though
there's somewhat of a safety net.
'cause it's North Carolina, it's
safe, it's family, it's place we like.
But yeah, I took that leap.
Very, very crazy.
But.
Linda Ostovitz: But you know, what's
occurring to me is that even though you
and Bill anticipated that you might end
up back there someday, even if it was a
second home, you did this on your terms
and so many big things that happen in
our lives are precipitated by something
over which we have no control that
makes us say, oh, I need to do this.
And you mentioned your parents who are
getting older and, but it was a choice.
It was absolutely a choice that you made.
And of course, when you talk about
something to challenge yourself,
this is who you are, right?
Any one of us can stay in this safe space.
If you stay in this safe
space, you don't grow perhaps.
Cheryl Brown: Right.
Linda Ostovitz: What was the
professional opportunity that caused
you to say, yes, I'm gonna grab this.
Cheryl Brown: Attorneys always think,
and you probably have thought this too,
what is life like outside of a law firm?
What is life outside of billable hours?
What is life outside of that always
trying to find the next client.
So you always think that every
attorney has thought that.
So this is an opportunity to
move outside of law firm, moving
in-house to a company corporation.
My background is always
represented businesses.
So I always have that kind of in-house
business corporate background.
Focusing on labor and employment, but this
is a company part of the Coca-Cola family.
So it is a huge from a business
standpoint, this company's been
around for 40 years in North Carolina.
It's part of the Coke family.
It has huge support.
International implications, and it's
an opportunity where I, in talking with
them, I knew that they were struggling,
but I also knew I could do it.
They were looking for a VP of
human resources, general Counsel
within Southeastern Container.
And as we talked through the needs
and the opportunities, it was just a
really good fit for my skillset and I
could help them along in the process
that I felt super comfortable with.
With that said, it's in a manufacturing
facility, you're in the beverage
manufacturing industry, which is so.
Different than just your run of the
mill, law firm businesses type thing.
This is on a bigger global scale,
but at the same time, people
are people and companies manage
their employees very similarly.
The laws, from a legal standpoint, from a
labor and employment standpoint, primarily
the laws are federal laws that we're
dealing with, especially when you have
a company that is across the country.
So yeah, it was it's a big
opportunity, but it's super exciting
and I challenge myself every day.
Every single day there's
something new that I'm learning,
Linda Ostovitz: Do you wear a
hard hat to work given that you're
in a manufacturing facility?
I have a perception that outside of
your office, there's Coke bottles
being filled and caps being put on.
On and trucks being loaded.
Cheryl Brown: So this is where I'm gonna
date myself, and you'll appreciate this.
I'm sure if you ever watch Laverne and
Shirley and you imagine that Steve,
Laverne, and Shirley and the bottle
are going by and they have their I
think they had hair nets on, I don't
even know if they had hard hats.
They're bottling and it's going by.
It's not like that at all.
So yes, I have safety equipment, I have
safety goggles, I have safety shoes.
We have safety vest and ear,
little ear safety ear things.
But what I learned, which is so
fascinating to me 'cause I remember
the first time going into the
manufacturing facilities and we have
five plants scattered around the
east, eastern side of the country.
But everything is robotics,
everything is equipment.
You see very few people.
That's not to say that there's not people
out there, but it's a lot of engineers.
Industrial engineers running equipment
that I wouldn't even be able to comprehend
how that equipment is being run.
It is very technical.
And that was kind of an aha moment
to recognize how far we've come in,
just because I'm not in that space,
but I've learned so much and we
recently went to Germany 'cause a
lot of the manufacturing equipment.
For the beverage industry is in
Germany and they just held their
big conference called Drink Tech.
It's an international conference for all
beverage manufacturers across the world,
and they only, they hold it every three
years, and it's an opportunity to learn
about that equipment and the equipment.
You have separate equipment
for filling, you have separate
equipment for making bottles.
You have separate equipment for making
the little closures that go on top and the
separate equipment for the plastic bottles
and the glass bottles and the cans.
In the beer industry.
It's a fascinating industry.
But yeah, so those are the type of
opportunities that, that are afforded me
right now and just I'm learning a lot.
Linda Ostovitz: I'm a lawyer.
I work in an office,
I work in a courtroom.
I would know.
I can't even imagine what a
big difference this is for you.
Like you've described a whole nother
industry, but I guess the thing that's
maybe consistent is you're still dealing
with people, and so when you talk about
hr, you're still dealing with people.
Are you encountering different types
of issues with people in Asheville than
what you were in Columbia, Maryland?
Or do you find that HR
issues are HR issues?
Cheryl Brown: HR issues are HR issues,
but I think what I have learned is
that when you're in a manufacturing
facility, you have, there's a distinction
between your plant employees, your
hourly employees, and what's important
to them and what concerns they have
versus employees who are in an office.
Your salary employees.
So that has been.
You have to be approachable and you
have to understand what they are going
through and their day-to-day lives,
I think to them, it's so different
than what I think we experience.
So that has been, an opportunity
to really get to know some of
these employees and part of.
This is just who I am is making sure that
I go and I am, go out on the floor and
I'm going to all these shift changes and
I'm meeting all these employees and I'm
actually traveling to every single plant,
which is part of my 90 day goals, to make
sure that I meet with all the shifts and
the employees that understand, because I
don't think you can really lead until you
understand what they're going through.
Linda Ostovitz: Such wisdom to do that.
You can't manage people
unless you know 'em.
You can't help 'em unless you know 'em.
So yay to you for doing that.
And then the other aspect of your
job is general counsel, which is
different from hr and so does being
general counsel to basically a
manufacturing place different from being.
From the work that you did for really
businesses and corporations that maybe
weren't in the manufacturing arena.
Cheryl Brown: Yeah, knock on wood.
I'm gonna say this lightly 'cause I
hope nothing happens, but so far, so
good in that space and we have a big
support system of outside counsel, so
a lot of it is coordinating with them
and making sure that we're on the same
page and things are running through me.
I think, just from a business background,
making sure that our contracts are
in place and looking at things.
Internally and having, and
certain issues may come up.
Probably the biggest issue in a
manufacturing place is safety.
Safety is the top priority.
And, that aligns so well with the
labor and employment side of it.
Osha a lot of our legal issues
would come up with hiring or
firing, so most of their issues.
But if there is a need to hire
outside counsel, let's say
for international purchases.
That's something that our international
attorneys would deal with.
Or making sure our outside real estate
attorneys, because we have plants in
so many different states, you have
to rely on your outside counsel and
then you just help support them.
We're trained to ask those questions
and we're trained to know what we need
to know, in order to have conversations
with outside counsel, and they haven't,
this company has historically only
relied on outside counsel and not had
an attorney in-house to manage that.
So that's another new phase for them.
So we'll see how it goes, but
they have the benefit of having an
attorney and also someone who's,
willing and excited to be the VP of
hr, which is always an interesting
combination, but it works right now.
Linda Ostovitz: That's huge.
I was actually gonna ask you, when
you stepped into the role of VP of
HR and of general counsel, were you
filling a vacated position or it sounds
like you are creating the position
of general counsel, is that right?
Cheryl Brown: Yes, yes,
Linda Ostovitz: Okay.
That's a cool place to be, right?
You get to write the script and create
the outline of how it all works.
Cheryl Brown: absolutely it's good.
Yeah, because you can do that
but there's also, the challenges.
It's never been done before.
Even with the VP of HR position I
think this has been a position that
they've been wanting to fill for a
while because they really wanted to
make sure that it was a more strategic
position and they wanted to elevate it.
Because what I've learned is, and
this is a testament to the company,
is a lot of these employees who
have worked here 30 and 40 years.
And I think 13 years at DARS
is a long time, but these have
voiced 30 to 40 years, Linda.
And, with that, they have a lot of wisdom.
Also as part of succession planning,
that's a lot of knowledge and
experience that's gonna be moving
on and leaving the company.
And so that is probably one of the top
priorities is figuring out what we're
gonna do with these more tenured employees
because they've been here for so long
and as they leave, do we have the bench
strength to fill in and meet that demand.
That's the number one challenge, but
that's the number one challenge for
so many companies, not just here.
There's so many companies
that are like that.
Linda Ostovitz: I understand it's your job
to figure out how to manage those tenured
employees and probably strategically
figure out what you need once they
move on to whatever's next for them.
Is it your job then to recruit
and hire and, fill those gaps that
might be created by the retirement
of those long-term employees?
Cheryl Brown: Yes, the
short answer is yes.
The long answer is I have a
team and we have support from
the senior leadership team.
We have support from the board.
It is, and you have support
from the Coke system.
Like you have a big
support system, but yeah.
That is the goal is identifying some
type of succession plan to recruit
employees in the manufacturing space.
It's a challenge because as I said
before, it's a very technical job.
A lot of engineers and making sure
that you have the right people, but
finding the right people who want
to stay another, 20 to 30 years.
That's the other challenge because as
you know, people move around a lot.
And people, if you can keep someone
three years, you're doing a great job.
Linda Ostovitz: Do you have a training
program, an internal training program, for
getting these folks to have the technical
expertise that you've talked about?
Cheryl Brown: Yeah, and I think
what's cool is, Maryland I find
was more advanced in these kind of
apprenticeship programs, workforce
development programs, and I have had
that experience in working in Maryland.
And so what I can develop down here is
making sure that we have that workforce
development apprenticeship programs
here, and understanding how North
Carolina, and I'm just looking at North
Carolina , but we also have plants
in Virginia and Ohio and Tennessee.
But looking at those opportunities to
develop that training program, because
a lot of the employees, we look at
community colleges, technical colleges,
even the colleges like you look at, at
Virginia Tech, you look at NC State,
Georgia Tech, like a lot of those
engineers will come out of Clemson
looking at those schools as well.
What I'm finding is I'm really trying to
learn and understand what the needs are
in order to target who we need to recruit.
And they, because the company is so
part of the Coke system, there's not a
lot of advertising as to who they are.
They think for a lot of times,
employees would find the company, but
what we're finding is we need to do a
little more marketing and advertising
out there to start finding people.
It's very competitive in
the manufacturing space.
My big word, Linda, is
opportunity and patience.
These are my two words
that I use all the time.
Patience in learning in the
process, and there's a lot of
opportunities, which is great.
If you start any job, that's
what you want is opportunity.
Linda Ostovitz: Those are two
great words and I'm not surprised
to hear that they're your words.
And I feel like you've got a blank slate
there to a great extent and you're the
perfect person to come in there with
your experience and a fresh view, and a
willingness and an excitement, like you
say, to make this scenario a better one.
How long have you been there now?
Cheryl Brown: I've been
here about two months.
So two months.
Yeah.
And it is amazing how much
my life in Maryland I do.
I think about it, like what I can
take away from that and use that.
And I think that's probably the same
for everybody but you actually, I don't
think you realize how much you learn
when you're going through a job or
when you're in it, until you're out of
it and you can reflect back and then
you're like, wow, I really learned that.
I'm gonna take that.
I'm gonna take that.
That's good.
So yeah.
Linda Ostovitz: I think
that's accurate for sure.
So on the corner of your desk there, you
have a little display of some bottles
Cheryl Brown: I
Linda Ostovitz: I recognize the,
red and white Coca-Cola bottle.
How about what are the other
two bottles that are there?
Cheryl Brown: So the other two
bottles that are sitting there
are Coca-Cola bottles, but they
have the Baltimore Ravens on them.
And when I first started, my team knew I'm
not shy about being a Ravens fan, although
this season's a little tough, but.
Linda Ostovitz: It is.
Cheryl Brown: But as part of my
welcome gift, they gave me two little
Coke bottles with the Ravens Super
Bowl championships on 'em, and also
the other one has the Ravens on it.
And that was, when you move from a
state to, it's completely new area.
This is completely different.
So it was a nice touch that they gave me
when I came aboard, so that was very nice.
Linda Ostovitz: That was very sweet.
Very sweet.
So you took this huge jump off
a cliff a couple of months ago.
I know you don't have a
home yet, permanent home.
Your husband is not with you
yet all the time because you
don't have a permanent home.
Your boys are still in Maryland and
everything about your professional life
and your personal life has changed.
Would you recommend this to other
people who might be thinking,
I want something different.
I want a different opportunity.
I want an a way to be able to really
write the blueprint for the
success of this company.
Would you recommend it?
Cheryl Brown: I think as we said
at the beginning, like change is
hard and change also can be growth.
I think you have to decide,
it's a personal decision for
everybody as to where they are.
I believe everyone has it within them
to make that change, you just have to
decide if it's that right time for you.
And actually it may not even be the
right time and sometimes it's just a
leap of faith and it's, it is a risk.
I think at my stage in life it was the
right time to consider it because as
the boys are getting older and they're
transitioning and they're on their
own, like we're in a different stage.
Had it been 10 years ago, or even
five years ago, I probably would've
thought differently, but sometimes
things happen at the right reason and.
It is, it's a courageous act to
say, okay, I'm gonna do this.
I don't know what's gonna happen.
I have no idea.
But if I don't take that
opportunity and try it, I probably
would regret passing it by.
And if you are going to regret
passing over an opportunity, then
that probably tells you you should be
challenging yourself and taking it.
I don't know how I honestly I don't know.
It all happened so fast.
It was moving fast.
There were many
conversations with my family.
I did, I worried about the firm,
I worried about the chamber.
I worried out the boards I was
on and the friends that I had.
And yeah, it was, but it, I
guess I believed I could do it.
And everything in Maryland would
still be okay, which of course it is.
Of course everything is fine and that
the friendships that I have will always
be my friendships and my professional
group will always be there because we
really have developed those connections
that we talked about at the beginning.
When you join a committee, when
you become engaged, it's not always
about the organizations, about
the people that you work with.
And I will be honest, I miss people.
It's hard when you look back on
LinkedIn and you see everybody
doing thing that you know you did.
But I will tell you, I have my first
chamber meeting next week and I went
to a SHRM meeting a couple weeks ago,
so just gimme a couple months and I
will continue to be getting involved.
Oh, actually in the United Way, I
did went to a United Way meeting,
so I'm exploring opportunities down
here because it is important to
me to be a part of the community.
And when you're in-house, you
don't always have that opportunity
as you did with the law firm.
So it's not always about
networking, but here I look at
it as marketing the company.
Recruiting it and making sure
that we are the company that
everybody wants to work at.
That's the only difference.
It's still networking, but I kind
of pivot, if that makes sense.
Linda Ostovitz: And is your
company supportive of that effort?
'cause that's so much of who you are.
Cheryl Brown: I know.
Linda Ostovitz: Yeah.
Cheryl Brown: So far, so good.
I think if it's all part of kind of
marketing who we are and recruiting and
making sure that people want to work here
because there's a face and there's an
image and it's like, Hey, wait a minute.
They're involved.
They do more.
It's not just that manufacturing
plant up on the mountain.
So yeah, I think it's an opportunity.
There's my word.
And we'll see, we'll kind
of explore that and see what
happens because, yeah, it's good.
Recruiting's hard and making,
we don't have necessarily a
marketing team because it's Coke.
Like they, Coke is, I don't know.
It's, that's another it's very
unusual to be in that situation.
And so I'm I guess recruiting,
marketing, communication, legal.
I don't know.
I have all these hats right
Linda Ostovitz: You wear them beautifully.
I will tell you, you gave me chills as
you were talking about a courageous act.
I used, the less elegant term jumping
off a cliff, but it was a courageous
act that you took and about friendships,
but knowing you as well as I do
they're so fortunate to have you, and
especially to have you in a role where
you are creating, you're not walking
in and saying, okay, I can check
the boxes for this job description.
You are creating the job description,
which I think is so cool, and the
strategy, and you being out there with
your beautiful face as the face of Coke.
Huh?
Who could be more fortunate
than to have that?
So thank you so much for joining
me today on Real Talk, Real Growth.
Maybe we should check in with
you in a couple of months
Cheryl Brown: Yeah.
Linda Ostovitz: and you'll be telling
me you're running this group and that
group and on the board and the chair
person, and hopefully have a permanent
home that you and Bill have found and
love to spend the rest of your days in.
That would be great.
Cheryl Brown: and I want you to come visit
and I think my experiences and friendships
in Maryland only prepared me for this job.
Linda Ostovitz: You know what?
You give as much as you receive my dear.
And no relationship is a one way street.
Even if it's not a good one, right?
But the best ones are two-way streets,
and we all learn from each other and help
each other, and I'm so happy to see you
and wish you all the best and thrilled
for what you've accomplished so far.
And I will talk to you soon.
Thank you for joining us on
Real Talk, Real Growth, Cheryl
Brown, ladies and gentlemen.
Cheryl Brown: Thank you, Linda.