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Have you ever wondered how to make sense out of your messy life? Or wondered how to live in peace in the middle of a stressful world? Welcome to the Making Peace & Beyond podcast where Cleveland-based counselor and author, Jamie Norton, talks with guests about life's struggles and how to live in the peace, joy, and freedom Christ died to give us.
Jamie: Have you ever wondered how to make sense out of your messy life, or how to live in peace in the middle of a stressful world? My name is Jamie Norton, and I want to welcome you to the Making Peace and Beyond podcast. In almost 50 years as a counselor. I have seen a lot of life happen at this podcast because got to cover all of it.
Jamie: So thanks for joining us. While we explore life's struggles and how to live in the peace, joy, and freedom that Christ died to give us. One of the more common problems that comes into my office as a counselor are parents of adult children say that the adult child is unhappy with the parent, or the parent is unhappy with the adult child.
Jamie: And so today, I thought we would have a conversation about how to heal broken relationships between parents and adult children. So today I'm here with Linda in Hope neighborhood, who started badly and even are ending nicely.
Jamie: So I'm really glad you're here.
Jamie: So welcome. I thought how we could do today would be to really look at where you were and then what happened and where you are now. So, Linda, would you like to begin?
Linda: Sure. Thank you so much for the opportunity to share our journey. so my journey started by taking Making Peace. And I took Making Peace about a year, I think, before she did. And, I realized that I was broken at at that point, making peace in beyond. and, I, I needed I wasn't, I wasn't, navigating life.
Jamie: Well.
Linda: I was hurting her. I was wounded myself.
Jamie: How did that look, Linda? And then what were you doing that was hurtful to her?
Linda: So when conflict would arise, as it does with any relationship, there was the emotional explosion. But there was also a viciousness that would come out from both of us toward one another. That was more than just about whatever the problem was at the time. There was a defense. There was a defensiveness. And you've you've hurt me. And so I'm going to wounds you back in a way that you won't forget.
Jamie: Kind of make me say I'll be more mean to you.
Linda: Correct, correct.
Jamie: I wanted to, to, to couch that. And you were a single parent for a lot of hope's life. And how old was hope when you became a single parent?
Linda: She was six years old.
Jamie: And that must have been a really, really intensely difficult time for you.
Linda: It was a very difficult time for you. you know, it's it's financially difficult, for a single woman. It's emotionally difficult because you have, you know, needs that are just chronically not being met. And you're tired all the time. I feel like that, everything is pulling on you. I had a career as a nurse. very involved in that.
Linda: And there was high expectations there. There were high expectations within myself of. Okay. I'm a single mom. I'm going to raise this child in a way that is kind of going to show him. You know.
Jamie: So you get this kind of twofold thing. It's like there's this mother mama bear syndrome. Like nobody's going to hurt my child again. Right. And then you get this. This child is going to be a trophy for my success. Exactly. And that's a really dangerous kind of a thing to do. Plus, you end up in a situation where you have no real margin for conflict.
Jamie: You you're you're sort of at your edge all the time so that there's not much room for things not to work the way you would like to see them, and for the world not to operate, very precisely, according to your expectations. So I throw that in because I think it's a real common scenario, not just for single parent, but for parents of two family, two parent families.
Jamie: that that we have both of those things going on. We're tired. We're stressed. We don't want our children to suffer pain and suffering like we have. Great. And we make children atrophy. And I think that, regardless, is is is a bad formula for let's have a happy relationship.
Jamie: Yeah. Right.
Linda: Because what that sets you up for is how I feel about myself is determined by your performance, which is death. That is so, Kostek.
Jamie: Super codependent.
Jamie: Yes.
Linda: Yes, yes. And, a lot of the time that she was younger, when I was divorced, the first six years, my father was living with us. He was very ill. So any kind of margin that I might have had to invest in our relationship was kind of pulled by being in that, you know, sandwich situation. so, you know, there was there was lots of stresses and not very much.
Linda: I remember during that time I had an iron bed from my grandmother, and I would go to bed at night and I would hold on to the iron bars on the headboard, and I couldn't cry. And I couldn't pray. And I would just say, I trust you, Lord. I trust you, Lord. Almost like a mantra that I hoped would come true.
Jamie: So you clung to the Lord during those times along with the iron bars?
Jamie: I did, I did.
Jamie:vThat is a perfect picture of what you look like. But I bet you're actually. Isn't this. Yes. Because you were so, so intense and so stiff.
Jamie: And and.
Linda: Very and.
Jamie: And very, very, controlling at that point.
Linda: And guarded. Yes. Very guarded. Me. Very guarded. You know, the the the drawbridge is where I was letting anybody in because I'd been hurt too much, you know.
Jamie: Yeah. Well, you didn't have room for anybody anyway.
Jamie: No, I did. It was way.
Jamie: So what was that like for you?
Hope: Yeah. Well, after the divorce, my mom really just became my best friend, like, I feel so blessed that, like, we've always had in terms of when it was the good times, it was always, we had this really wonderful relationship and this really wonderful friendship to where, from an early age, like, she really poured into me that even if I were to make a mistake and stuff, it wasn't going to be like the world was ending.
Jamie: It wasn't. She wasn't going to leave you.
00:06:50:04 - 00:07:09:00
Hope
Yeah. It wasn't going to be that if something absolutely terrible that went against her morals, that that would be all right. You're done. Get out of the house. It was going to be. Yes. You'll have to. You'll have to deal with the consequences of your actions and stuff. But I'm still going to be there for you, and I'm still going to love you.
00:07:09:02 - 00:08:00:08
Hope
And even those six years, initially, after the divorce, when my grandfather lived with us. Like, I still loved those times because, I absolutely adored my grandfather. And so even though that sometimes didn't leave as much room for us to build, how to communicate with each other, especially in those developmental years right after the divorce. I think it really helped us to, like, just become a stronger unit since outside of my grandfather, we didn't really have this wide extended family that was surrounding us because my mom was an only child and lots of her side of the family was just really spread out, and it just wasn't something that was, close access.
00:08:00:08 - 00:08:02:13
Hope
And it wasn't close relationships either.
00:08:02:18 - 00:08:28:12
Jamie
Do you think, was there a time when you noticed how stressed out she was? Did you think I have to be good? I have to help. I have to take help or take care of my grandfather. I have to do these things. I mean, I don't think you consciously think those things as a child, but I think innately, you sort of children are so symbiotic with a parent that often they, try to fill in the gap and try to make sure that they don't have needs that would tax her.
00:08:28:14 - 00:08:58:04
Hope
Yeah, I definitely like especially the closer to when my grandfather passed away like that was when I would really I just really wanted to be an encouraging voice to my mom, of just comfort and of just bringing some sort of peace to her that it was just it wasn't just this hard thing of like having to see Papa fade away.
00:08:58:04 - 00:09:21:08
Hope
It was, that he's going to be in a better place and that he's not going to be in pain anymore. Type thing and, but definitely like when it came to some of the more like, emotional stuff, I think, because how there really wasn't that much of margin for things to kind of be focused almost on us.
00:09:21:08 - 00:09:45:01
Hope
Like a lot of the time it was focused on seeing him get care that it did turn into me stuffing emotions down. And that turned into like a lot of emotional eating and stuff, too, of just like, not being able to express my needs. So I'm just going to stuff it and I'm going to stuff myself in the process to.
00:09:45:03 - 00:10:01:05
Jamie
You know, eating disorders are so common in that kind of scenario. And it's like you're trying to take care of her by not giving her your needs and feelings and limits. And I think that is, that is, admirable but disastrous.
00:10:01:07 - 00:10:02:00
Jamie
Yeah.
00:10:02:02 - 00:10:12:12
Jamie
For young children, say, because you're not her partner, but you are cast into the role of her partner and her role of her best friend instead of she's a mother and I can be a child.
00:10:12:17 - 00:10:39:12
Hope
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so then especially, like, I feel, especially after, my father had passed away because I was in fourth grade when that happened. and then just naturally, with it being going into middle school, that's usually around the time when hormones are coming in for young children and stuff. And, you know, it's a real exciting time with the house.
00:10:39:12 - 00:10:41:06
Hope
You know.
00:10:41:08 - 00:10:43:19
Jamie
It really is.
00:10:43:21 - 00:11:08:01
Hope
But I think that's especially like when looking back and just getting ready for talking about this today, just looking back at our relationship, even though, like over the years and stuff, over the 23 years that I've been alive, like I have always seen, my mom is like the closest relations ship that I have and stuff, and it's a beautiful relationship.
00:11:08:03 - 00:11:36:01
Hope
Just looking back at it, though, it's just like we were in such a toxic place, really. It was. It was not a good relationship because when the going got tough and when the arguments happened, it wasn't just an argument, it was a nuclear explosion, and it was that there were no survivors and it was always, it would always start with this is the problem.
00:11:36:03 - 00:11:58:06
Hope
But then it would turn into I need to be on the defense. So I'm going to say something that's completely unrelated to the problem at hand, but it's going to be sure to hurt you. And it's going to be a very either intentionally aggressive comment or it's going to be a passive aggressive comment. That's going to be a wound for a very long time.
00:11:58:08 - 00:12:01:11
Jamie
So you defaulted to the best defense is a good offense.
00:12:01:11 - 00:12:07:01
Linda
Yeah. Correct. And you know, there was no conflict resolution, no skills.
00:12:07:01 - 00:12:14:21
Jamie
So that like for you because it's I mean all of a sudden, you know, you have this, you know, a live wire on your head.
00:12:14:21 - 00:12:16:08
Jamie
Yes, yes.
00:12:16:08 - 00:12:50:03
Linda
So you know, I think I hit I my expectation was now that the dust has settled and it's just us, I can get some of my needs met. I can be. And she kept popping off the nerves. All right. And, And my my thought was, when is it going to be my turn? I always have to be the strong one.
00:12:50:03 - 00:13:07:11
Linda
I always have to be the compassionate one. When do I get my turn to just lay down on the floor and kick and have a meltdown? I have to, you know, I have to deal with all this emotion. But of course, the other side of that I feel is she felt the same way. She felt the same way.
00:13:07:11 - 00:13:16:07
Linda
And we didn't, we didn't get it between the two of us that we weren't letting the walls down, we weren't being vulnerable with each other.
00:13:16:09 - 00:13:36:20
Jamie
And one of the things that happens when you get really busy defending yourself is you don't see with compassion the other person. They literally become your enemy. And and so you don't look at that person as the person that you used to see, maybe as a source of comfort now as a source of pain.
00:13:36:20 - 00:13:37:07
Linda
Right?
00:13:37:07 - 00:13:45:13
Jamie
Yep. And that's really a major loss for both of you. Yeah. And, and so that went on throughout your teenage years, right?
00:13:45:14 - 00:14:07:00
Hope
Yep. And definitely just the closer I got to college, the worse it got. Like, I remember that the closer I got to college move day, the more and more that we would comment at each other. I can't wait until, like, either I can't wait till I'm gone. Or she would say, I can't wait till you're gone.
00:14:07:00 - 00:14:10:04
Jamie
Because, yeah, I really wanted to go see each other.
00:14:10:05 - 00:14:11:17
Jamie
Hey, this is, Yeah.
00:14:11:17 - 00:14:36:22
Hope
So it it reached just such a terrible point where all those years it had been, we were talking to each other, but we weren't communicating. We were just hurling words at each other. And those wounds weren't being addressed. It was never there was never a point where after the dust settled, where it was coming back and saying, hey, look, I'm really sorry for the words that I said.
00:14:36:22 - 00:14:46:06
Hope
It was just we set our peace, we ran. And then that was just ignored that it ever happened.
00:14:46:06 - 00:15:07:20
Jamie
And I think that is one of the hard things about sort of the no talk rule relationship is that you have these really, really hurtful and damaging toxic things happen, and then you never hear anything about it. You never hear the I'm sorry, you never hear forgive me, please. You never you never really reconcile or complete the process of problem solving.
00:15:07:23 - 00:15:28:12
Jamie
And so it becomes a very, very, parallel and situation. Yeah. And it's, it's and then you start thinking, am I crazy? You know, that that really happened. You know, it just is, you know, just I can't wait to get, away from this person. And we have this image that develops of somebody is being not okay.
00:15:28:12 - 00:15:29:09
Linda
You know.
00:15:29:11 - 00:15:51:04
Jamie
It's really it. But there's no talk that they avoid. It's a painful truth. And I remember in my family, having grown up in chaos myself, we would have these tremendous arguments, you know, just yelling and screaming and sometimes even physical stuff. And then we go to bed and then everybody would want you to hug them in the morning.
00:15:51:04 - 00:15:58:12
Jamie
And I'm like, I don't feel like hugging you, you know? I mean, I'm still mad. I don't know when we made up, but I think I missed the fact.
00:15:58:14 - 00:15:59:12
Jamie
That, yeah.
00:15:59:12 - 00:16:22:01
Jamie
I did the play it. Yeah. It's like, what are you talking about way. And it was just very confusing. And I felt very inadequate because I would feel guilty when somebody would be really kind of nice. I felt guilty for, what I had said or done. But then when they were yelling and screaming, I felt guilty for loving them.
00:16:22:03 - 00:16:26:02
Jamie
And so there was this never feeling not guilty.
00:16:26:02 - 00:16:27:11
Jamie
I mean, that was.
00:16:27:13 - 00:16:41:11
Jamie
It was either way, there was a part of yourself that you could not, you know, was not positive to you. Right. So, so does that update us to about making peace time?
00:16:41:12 - 00:16:41:22
Linda
I think.
00:16:42:00 - 00:16:42:12
Hope
Very much.
00:16:42:12 - 00:16:43:18
Linda
Yeah, I think it does.
00:16:43:18 - 00:16:45:08
Jamie
So you came to making peace.
00:16:45:08 - 00:16:46:14
Linda
I did come to me and making.
00:16:46:14 - 00:16:48:12
Jamie
Me on and making peace and. Yeah.
00:16:48:16 - 00:17:01:18
Linda
Yes. And at first I felt like that I didn't belong there because my problems weren't big enough or I wasn't messed up enough. But of course, that was totally wrong.
00:17:01:20 - 00:17:05:04
Jamie
You and you. Yeah, I totally qualified.
00:17:05:05 - 00:17:08:17
Hope
Yeah, yeah. Totally qualify. Yes, yes.
00:17:08:19 - 00:17:36:14
Linda
but, I began when you laid out the Making Peace and you went through. Here's how it starts. Here's what we think. Here's what God wants for us. Here's some expectations that we have that we don't share. Here's how we live in our heads. And we we expect people to act into our imagination and not into how that they really are.
00:17:36:16 - 00:18:08:17
Linda
All of that was just so truthful to me, and I could see how that that really intersected with all sorts of cross streets in my life and in my history and, when we got to the section where, you know, you have the triangle and then you have the interrupters and you said, if you get on 71 going north, you're going to get to Lake Erie.
00:18:08:17 - 00:18:36:00
Linda
There's no other place to go. If you don't want to get to Lake Erie, you have to get off 71. And for me, that was a very big key in our relationship. And so when I went back home from the making peace and be on weekend, I, I said I can't control her part of the dance that we do, but I can get off 71.
00:18:36:02 - 00:19:07:17
Linda
And so the next time that we had a blowup, I altered what I had been doing. And it wasn't a big altar, it was just more like not defending myself so much, stepping back, allowing her to see whatever she was going to say and then not expecting to have the rational, conflict resolution, problem solving discussion at that time.
00:19:07:19 - 00:19:26:04
Jamie
You know, and I think it is it. And you make a really important point. Sometimes our initial changes are just a little bit. Yeah, I just have a different response. And you were learning not to react because when you react, when somebody yells at you, you got to do what they just did. You got to yell back, right?
00:19:26:04 - 00:19:52:02
Jamie
And they then control your behavior, you know, because now I'm letting you, whatever you do, control who I am when you decide to respond. Yeah. And that the word responsibility just means the ability to respond. And you choose a response and you chose to get off that highway of, I'm just going to get mad and blow up and, you know, we're going to have another rage fight, too.
00:19:52:06 - 00:20:02:10
Jamie
I'm going to hear you. Yeah, I'm going to listen to you. Right. You know, I'm not going to react to what you just did. Yeah. So what did you notice that.
00:20:02:15 - 00:20:05:12
Jamie
Oh yeah. Like there's no nobody.
00:20:05:12 - 00:20:06:11
Jamie
To fight there.
00:20:06:13 - 00:20:06:19
Jamie
Yeah.
00:20:06:19 - 00:20:32:21
Hope
Exactly. Yeah. Like even though it was such a small difference and small change that she was making. basically the past couple fights that we had had before she had gone to making peace almost every single one of them ended with her saying, I have a line and stuff. If you cross that line, we're not going to be able to continue a relationship.
00:20:32:21 - 00:20:36:19
Jamie
So you were really close to the yeah, let's cancel this whole thing. Yeah.
00:20:36:19 - 00:21:02:11
Hope
And like, well, I think that we were so lucky that it was just us for so long because there wasn't that quick exit to another family member for me, for me and for her, like it had gotten to that point, though, in our relationship where it was like, this needs to be addressed, or else I'm not going to have a good relationship with my mom at all.
00:21:02:13 - 00:21:28:07
Hope
And I remember I was either 18 or 19 coming home from college when she had just finished with Making Peace and Beyond. And, we had our first argument and I was still on the defense waiting for she's going to drop, she's going to drop a bomb at any second. And I'm going to be wounded again. And it never happened.
00:21:28:09 - 00:21:52:19
Hope
And I was like, this is this. This is how it usually goes. And that was the same for the next couple times. And that was when I really started to notice like that it wasn't just in how like we argued and stuff, but it was in every single aspect of her life that making Peace and beyond was bleeding over into of just changing.
00:21:52:19 - 00:22:36:22
Hope
Like it. It changed our whole communication dynamic to where it's still evolving to this day, with how we keep getting healthier, from how both of us have now gone to making peace and beyond. Because I didn't go until about a year after she did. but just how it keeps evolving that it's no longer just in the moment of the argument, having those communications and being able to get to that conflict resolution part of the conversation and being able to have a rational conversation, but it's being able to talk through things before it gets to that point in the first place.
00:22:36:22 - 00:22:57:21
Jamie
So somebody doesn't have to blow up to resolve the conflict. Yeah. Sort of identify when you start to have a little bit of an click in your soul or you know that, that we need to talk about this because there's a disharmony that is sort of happened here, and we need to resolve it because we can. Absolutely.
00:22:58:01 - 00:23:01:06
Jamie
We can talk. I don't have to stuff stuff anymore.
00:23:01:06 - 00:23:25:00
Linda
And, and and that's a cleaner process now. And it's a shorter process I am able to say. Hey when you came home tonight this is how I was feeling. I would have liked for you to have handled this this way. Can you just think about that for the next time. And then I don't go on and on and on.
00:23:25:02 - 00:23:46:02
Linda
And she kind of thinks about it and that's it, you know. And then she'll come back maybe later and say, you know, when you first said that I, it hurt my feelings or whatever. But now that I've thought about it, I could see where you were coming from. And it just making peace in beyond has given us this space.
00:23:46:04 - 00:23:54:11
Linda
It's given space in to our relationship to worry that we can step back, process, be safe in ourselves.
00:23:54:13 - 00:24:21:04
Jamie
But that's a very big word. Safe to say. Yeah, because I think most people who are coming in to making peace and beyond, or who are coming into counseling are seeking to be heard. They're seeking to have a safe place where they can just say whatever they need to say and be whoever they need to be. And I think our job as Christians is to love people real.
00:24:21:04 - 00:24:49:23
Jamie
Help them to see Jesus in us and know about him. But to give people a safe place so that they can work out their issues with God, not their issues with us. Right. But our issues with God. And that's the church. Yeah. I mean, the church that's the, the what the church is supposed to be is, is is where you could go and feel safe to work out your issues with God and be loved right in the process.
00:24:49:23 - 00:24:57:08
Jamie
Yeah. And I think that is when we can bring that into our home. And it's such a gift, right? It is such a gift.
00:24:57:10 - 00:25:09:06
Linda
I'm reminded of how Jesus said, you know, till one of those is the disciples. You know, if he lives until I comes back, what is that to you? In other words, get your get your head.
00:25:09:07 - 00:25:10:03
Jamie
And get it here. Right here.
00:25:10:03 - 00:25:17:02
Linda
Are you getting your own yard? You said so many times what other people think about me is none of my business.
00:25:17:03 - 00:25:18:07
Jamie
Exactly.
00:25:18:08 - 00:25:54:04
Linda
And and the biggest gift, I think, from making peace was shifting the focus back on what I need to change about Linda. God has brought information to Linda that is important for Linda to change in a way that she can be happy, healthy, safe, and he can work through her. And so that that was the gift that now the focus is not on what needs to clean her bed or, you know, do the dishes or do her homework.
00:25:54:06 - 00:25:58:15
Jamie
They need to do all those things.
00:25:58:17 - 00:26:10:11
Linda
But now it's like, she she's 23 years older. She doesn't make her bed. It's really none of my business. She has to live in that. I can, you know, my bed's clean. I don't care.
00:26:10:13 - 00:26:12:15
Jamie
I'm good, boy. Good. Yeah. You know.
00:26:12:16 - 00:26:37:04
Linda
There's just a real freedom about live and let live, you know, in a Christian sort of way. Yeah, that I can let her work out her stuff and trust God and trust my little girl into God's hand. Yeah. That he can bring people into her life and situations. Into her life to produce the kind of fruit and maturity in her that I could never do.
00:26:37:06 - 00:26:42:10
Linda
Yeah. So let's let my hands be off of this. What? Jesus, do his thing.
00:26:42:10 - 00:27:00:05
Jamie
So that question you were asking yourself early on in all of this, like, when do I get mine? When do I get to take care of me? When do I and what you realize through this whole thing is that you're the only one who can take care of you. You know, God has gifted you with you and you know.
00:27:00:09 - 00:27:23:03
Jamie
And that is the limit of our power is to allow him to work in us, to remove everything that blocks our path. Yeah. He has given you you and that question of when do I get to be me is now answered, because you don't have to spend a lot of time trying to run the world and the and grow everybody else.
00:27:23:03 - 00:27:47:03
Jamie
You can start to really focus on who you are and who am I in this relationship? Am I being kind? Am I being generous? Am I being compassionate? Do I have empathy? Am I forgiving? Do I have mercy? And the to the degree that we do, then we are living Christ in us. Yeah. You know, because we can only have those things through him.
00:27:47:03 - 00:27:52:12
Jamie
We're actually pretty nasty creatures as long as we're self-centered and try to fix everybody else.
00:27:52:12 - 00:27:53:15
Jamie
But yeah.
00:27:53:16 - 00:27:55:09
Jamie
Yeah, pretty obnoxious actually.
00:27:55:10 - 00:27:57:21
Jamie
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:27:57:23 - 00:28:18:21
Jamie
I think back and if for both of you, because I've known you for a while now and, and you've led co facilitated making patient through the, in the videos. Yes. You know the video classes. That's correct. Yes. And that has been really really neat to see you. You know not only grow you but also give it back.
00:28:19:00 - 00:28:40:10
Jamie
Also pay it forward and hope you've just grown up there. yeah, you were the original. I remember you being like, curious where you. Because you were the tech team. You know, when we made the video. Yeah. And I remember you being just curious about it. And I think that that made you had a word ago. You know, it's like I need to do this thing.
00:28:40:11 - 00:28:54:20
Jamie
Yeah. But to me, it's like, so sad because so many of the people when, you know, coming in here want me to fix the other person, you know, like, if you would just become who I think you are to be there, I could love you.
00:28:54:22 - 00:28:56:21
Jamie
Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah.
00:28:57:02 - 00:29:02:19
Jamie
And instead of saying, I need to become the person that you would want to love.
00:29:02:21 - 00:29:03:07
Linda
Yes.
00:29:03:07 - 00:29:04:00
Hope
Absolutely.
00:29:04:00 - 00:29:32:05
Jamie
You know, and that's a whole different way of looking at it. Right. You know is am I lovable. Am I kind you know. So I really just so appreciate you you both about your willingness to, to put it out there because there's this is a really, really common scenario, not just for parents and adult children, but for spouses, for friends, for coworkers, at the same dynamics, you know, kind of apply.
00:29:32:09 - 00:29:44:17
Jamie
Yeah. You know, and the feel it. I don't I remember, but I sort of began to look at this whole thing and decide it was me that needed fixing instead of the crazy shrink I was married to.
00:29:44:19 - 00:29:46:19
Jamie
I did.
00:29:46:19 - 00:29:54:08
Jamie
And I remember, I remember when I stopped fighting, it was I mean, he didn't like it.
00:29:54:10 - 00:29:55:01
Jamie
He didn't like.
00:29:55:01 - 00:30:18:19
Jamie
It. He wanted me to be angry because it could justify some of his bad behaviors. When I stopped, it was really. But it was fun. Yeah, it's fun to think of. I'm not going to respond in the expected way. Yeah, I'm going to respond in a different way. Yeah. And and, and to maintain my choice of response that I really appreciate is anything any either one of you would like to say before we end up for this day?
00:30:18:21 - 00:30:44:13
Hope
I think for me, it's just that when you have a relationship that's between the parent and adult child, it's that it's never going to be perfect by doing just one thing. It's a lot like Christianity, like going through making peace and beyond is a lot like Christianity in the sense that it's not you just getting baptized, and you're saved from everything and you're perfect.
00:30:44:13 - 00:31:08:13
Hope
And it's the same with if you go to making peace and beyond and you just do it the one time and you never look at it again, you're not going to continue to go through that healing process through every single relationship. Like we just discovered. This was just a couple weeks ago. well, I've had Aids since I was around the time that my grandfather had passed away.
00:31:08:15 - 00:31:50:05
Hope
And so every time, along with the, just explosion of anger and hurtful words, I would just immediately start bawling my eyes out and stuff. And like, that stays true to this day. And it wasn't until a couple of weeks ago that because of how we just continue to build this relationship of communicating with each other, that by doing research and stuff and being like, okay, this is how I'm feeling, but I don't know why I'm feeling it, that we discovered like, oh, along with A.D.D., people that suffer from that also have trouble regulating their emotions.
00:31:50:07 - 00:32:34:22
Hope
It's just they can't take the pause, usually like it's it's just an immediate response. And that was a big thing that fueled a lot of the fights from my side of it. And now, like as we just continue to strengthen and build our relationship and as we're starting to just continue to, grow as individuals as well and heal from the past and become people that people can love and stuff, it's just being able to be like, okay, I recognize this feeling, and I know that it's not just, a response that I'm having just as a defense mechanism, it's that I just can't help it.
00:32:34:22 - 00:32:39:12
Hope
So I just know that in this moment, I need to take a break and a quick breath.
00:32:39:14 - 00:33:06:05
Jamie
I think one of the things that happens when you, land in a safe relationship is you have a safe space to start to understand who you are as a person and to grow as a person without having to defend who you are. And so it really is, a big thing I talk sometimes about, you know, the point about not just the immediate, okay, everything's now perfect, which I think as Americans, we tend to look for magical cures.
00:33:06:05 - 00:33:28:21
Jamie
That's why we say drug addicted. but yeah, but, life doesn't come in magical cures. It doesn't heal in magical cures. and I tell people sometimes if you grow up in Germany, you going to speak German? You know, you can't not speak German. It's a language. It is spoken that you're taught. And either you're going to have German habits and German customs.
00:33:28:21 - 00:33:49:18
Jamie
This is not to be disparaging about people in Germany, but if you you get a passport to leave Germany, then you're going to go to the United States. If you go into a room that has ten people in it, you're still speaking German. And then there's one person in there that speaks German. You're going to seek out the one person who you who sounds familiar with, you can communicate with.
00:33:49:20 - 00:34:16:02
Jamie
So when you grow up in survival, you're going to speak the language of control. Fight, run. and you're going to, pick out people who are willing to avoid painful truths, who are willing to not express their needs, who are willing to not have limits, you know, so you you're going to pick out a complementary role. If somebody is out of control and you you have survived back, tried to control, then you're going to you're going to pick out somebody you can conceivably control.
00:34:16:02 - 00:34:38:13
Jamie
So there's there's all kinds of things that play over. But learning a new language, if I said you're going to go to go to France in two weeks and you're going to speak French, you would laugh at me because you get this takes work. So you learn to speak a word or phrase or even speak fairly fluently. But then when life happens really quick, sometimes you go back to the original language, right?
00:34:38:13 - 00:34:41:15
Jamie
And so you get to have a moment.
00:34:41:17 - 00:34:42:03
Linda
Yes.
00:34:42:03 - 00:34:55:15
Jamie
And it's really important in those moments to go back and say, please forgive me. I had a moment. You know, I did like my old self. Yeah. But yeah, it's really learned. Anything else you wanted to say?
00:34:55:17 - 00:35:08:12
Linda
I think that we've learned to do a different kind of dance. that the dance that we do now is more of like a square dance to where you come together. But then you step back.
00:35:08:14 - 00:35:12:21
Jamie
And that's a great explanation for, like, parent relationships.
00:35:12:23 - 00:35:15:07
Jamie
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:15:08 - 00:35:20:04
Linda
You step back, you get the time, you give space. And, most of.
00:35:20:04 - 00:35:21:17
Jamie
All then you don't you go.
00:35:21:19 - 00:35:23:11
Jamie
That we don't see.
00:35:23:13 - 00:35:44:13
Linda
It, we're in sync. Then we're I'm not stepping on our feet so much and, letting her be the person that she needs to be, but inviting God into it more and more and more, realizing that I don't have the answers. I don't have the the wisdom. He does. And she's his.
00:35:44:13 - 00:35:45:09
Jamie
Creation, not yours.
00:35:45:09 - 00:35:46:10
Jamie
Yes.
00:35:46:12 - 00:35:59:06
Linda
And yeah. So it's it's just great. We I feel like that we're in a good place, but we're always learning and sharpening and getting better and better until the day we stop doing.
00:35:59:08 - 00:36:00:15
Jamie
Till the day he beams us up.
00:36:00:17 - 00:36:05:01
Jamie
That's right. Yeah. He's not there with me here. Yeah.
00:36:05:03 - 00:36:22:16
Jamie
well, thank you all so much for coming. And thank you for just being a privilege of of walking with you through some of the things you've been through and just watching the changes. I mean, the changes are physical. I mean, it's like tons have been lifted. So thank you much.
00:36:22:16 - 00:36:29:08
Linda
Oh, thank you for what? Making peace. And you're and beyond and your ministry has done for us.
00:36:29:10 - 00:36:45:11
Hope
Yes. Thank you for shattering the the old beliefs that we tend to cling to and just helping us to have the tools to build back the strong foundation to lead better, healthier lives and relationships.
00:36:45:11 - 00:36:59:22
Jamie
Thank you Lord. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you enjoyed this conversation, please like and subscribe. Leave a review, tell your friends and join us on all of our social media channels. Thanks again and God bless you.