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We are a podcast that aims to provide raw, real conversations about deep topics that concern a Christ-centered lifestyle.
We want to go where no one else wants to go, and we want to showcase conversations and topics that are not easily discussed. We do this by going in depth and providing a well thought and expressed conversation about these topics.
Jhon
Welcome to supernatural breakthroughs, where we have real, raw and unfiltered conversations about our Christ centered spiritual journeys. Discover mystical stories told by truth seekers on their many spiritual quests. We trust that these stories will help you on your own personal journey of discovery. Attached? Observation is not my salvation. All right, so let's unpack this topic. So what is it to be detached in our observation?
00:37
Joao
I think it's to not be enmeshed with the play of life. It's to take, let's say, the backstage. Instead of being caught up in life's actions, you enter into a state of being where you are identified with what's behind it. So let's say the I am behind everything else.
00:58
Jhon
You're not caught up in life's drama. You know, you're not getting emotionally entangled in it, caught up in that habitual, impulsive reaction, and you're detaching yourself and you're observing it. Sounds good. Sounds positive.
01:12
Hanka
Yes, sounds very positive. You just melting yourself in the unity of the spirit so you can feel the relief and you can feel the joy and you can feel the space for you to just be.
01:27
Jhon
And you were practicing this for years with your time with Muji. And they call it isness. It's like beingness. No. Or something of that nature.
01:35
Hanka
Yes. It's for you to observe who you are in terms of being detached from your body, mind, self identity. So you can just perceive everything from this place, that you are the observer of everything that is going on without you being putting apart from this unity. And that gives you a very big sense of space and freedom somehow.
02:01
Jhon
I know even professional athletes like Novak Djokovic, world number one tennis player at the time of this recording. At this time of this recording, he's actually number two. He practices something called mindfulness, where he observes his emotional, you know, enmeshment in the tennis match, and he tries to separate himself from that as fast as he can to calm his autonomic nervous system down. And it's very useful, very beneficial. So there's a lot of benefits, and we're going to get to the fact that it's not your salvation or our salvation coming up, but we want to acknowledge all the incredible benefits that each of us sharing this message with you have definitely experienced.
02:37
Jhon
We've all had moments where we've seen ourselves getting emotionally heated up or evolved in something, and then we come out of it, we detach, and then we observe it and we calm down. So in some ways, it is a type of salvation in that moment. It does help us in that moment.
02:52
Hanka
Yes. It's part of the path that puts you into a point that you can somehow, how to put in word, maybe.
03:01
Jhon
Realize you're not those labels or those things. Kind of gives you a bigger sense of self, maybe.
03:07
Hanka
Yes, exactly.
03:08
Jhon
Exactly. Okay, so there's a lot of benefits, and we could go on a lot more about the benefits and the beautiful side of detaching and observing. But we also see in psychology, when you look at the attachment styles, there's an attachment style called secure attachment. But one of the attachment styles is anxious avoidance. And it's this. Whenever couples in a relationship, you know, the one who has that particular habit or tendency, when things get emotionally sensitive, they feel hurt, they feel insecure, they feel scared. Instead of leaning in and talking to their partner and emotionally expressing what's going on, they detach themselves. They leave the building, they distance themselves. And it's a strategy, protect themselves from the vulnerability of intimacy. And that's very common. Very, very common. A lot of men do this by not communicating in their relationships with their partners.
03:56
Jhon
And they go off and they play golf or sport, and they enjoy themselves and they just disconnect. I once even had a forever a friend of mine a long time ago drink many, many beers open up to me and say, wow, I wish I could talk openly when I'm not drinking. Then I thought, wow, we had a really beautiful connection. Then the next day, I tried to kind of reinitiate the connection. When he was not drunk, I'd drink it. And he didn't want to go there, didn't want to talk. It's like it never happened. And I thought, my goodness, you need ten beers to disassociate, to detach, that you can connect with intimacy. So we do see this a lot in many different forms, playing out in relationships, in connection.
04:36
Jhon
And then what we found in the spiritual communities and the new age journeys that were on is that this is a very, very common practice. Meditating, observing. But were talking about earlier, you know, walking to certain cafes and places where people were practicing a lot of this. And it was like, what was the word you were using? It was like apathy.
04:54
Joao
Apathy, yeah. It's like a floaty sense of non action.
05:00
Jhon
Non action.
05:01
Joao
Non action floating around. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
05:04
Jhon
Interesting. You know, in sport, we used to call this in my era when I used to play sport, tanking. And so what it means is when an athlete is scared, they're feeling too much fear in their match. Or their sport. They just don't try anymore. Such a good feeling. It's a relief. I don't care if I win. I don't care if I lose. It doesn't matter.
05:22
Hanka
Yes. We used to say there is no intention, there is no tension.
05:27
Jhon
No tension?
05:28
Hanka
Yes. If you don't have any innate tension, then you have no tension because you give this space, you disattach yourself from any kind of responsibility or issue or desire, which means that you open a space for whatever will come. It will be soft. It will work out for you somehow.
05:45
Jhon
Interesting. And I know, Hanka, were chatting earlier about the body, soul and spirit, and you were communicating that you feel like the detachment comes and you kind of go up into the spirit and you're observing all the chaos of the soul. But the spirit is not necessarily connected to God. He's just observing. Do you want to speak about your experience, perhaps, in that?
06:04
Hanka
Yeah.
06:05
Hanka
So my understanding back then, when I was so confused about how it works, body, soul and spirit, I thought soul is the spirit or spirit is the soul. And I realized that soul is all about the emotions, your will, analyzing, overanalyzing, and taking control over your body and your daily life decisions. But once you are disconnected from your emotions, and as Mariana said, and John and Joao, you observe, you create the space you go into. Spirit could call it as a spirit man. Yeah. That's where the freedom comes in. And you're able to observe your soul and everything that is happening in you and around you.
06:45
Jhon
Thank you. So, recapping this, there's many beautiful benefits for attached observation. You get to see things from a different perceptual position. I know even in therapy, they're having different modalities where people can really disassociate. We actually learned many techniques to do this, particularly people who had high level trauma. And then they can come out, observe it with a detachment.
07:06
Hanka
However, if you have an intense experience and you are tripping hard in a mushroom experience, I can talk from my.
07:14
Jhon
Own experience, talking about the drug mushroom, doing a trip.
07:17
Hanka
Then, let's say some fear or something can control over you. And it's not that easy to detach yourself from it. And in that moment, it felt like its spirit is broken.
07:29
Jhon
Your spirit is broken.
07:29
Hanka
Yeah.
07:30
Jhon
Yeah, it felt like that.
07:31
Hanka
Yeah. And I realized that I have no idea how to get back into control. And I realized I'm not controlling it, and I just couldn't get back into the peace, into the bless. Back then, when I was in a really hard magic mushroom, experience. And what Cisco reminded me about was the book of psalms, that the greatest sacrifice for God is the broken spirit.
07:59
Jhon
Okay, so what I'm hearing there is that you're having this mushroom experience. You feel, like, completely disconnected from everything, and you feel completely detached. But I do know. Cause I have heard your story that you did have a Christ encounter within that experience, which helps you connect to your spirit. But let's keep going with these, with attachments. Observing, disassociating, observing, realizing we're not those things. There's a lot of positive things. But we're saying here, it's not your salvation. It's not the final answer.
08:27
Hanka
Yes, true. Not only that, but you also kind of start using that as escape for you to be on your life. When some kind of problems or situations come, you don't know how to react. When some kind of spiritual attacks come, you don't know how to react. When it comes, some kind of desire of doing some kind evil things or addictions or whatever, you don't know how to escape. And then you try to escape on that point to being disattached, for you.
08:59
Jhon
To relieve yourself, the tension, as you said earlier.
09:01
Hanka
Exactly. So you use that as a kind of a defensive way of you to not assume responsibility. Because somehow it's amazing, but it's not the solution.
09:13
Jhon
And again, I see this, the same parallel with psychology. When you're disassociating and avoiding your partner because you're scared of intimacy, is that relationship going to get stronger or weaker? It's going to get weaker. So when we're disassociating all the time from life, practicing this, as you're saying, Mariana, as a default, are you engaging with life, or are you disassociating from life? You're disassociating. So that's the downside of it. That's the dysfunctional side of it, that it becomes a crutch, it becomes a habit, it becomes a way to avoid life itself. And there's so many forms that this plays out.
09:46
Hanka
Yes. And maybe as well, from my own experience, not in my personal life, but seeing in others, in observation of others. From that point, you have this more facilitation on, going on in several kind of experiences that you put as a good way of you to bring results or I solutions into your life, for instance, to different kind of partners or different kind of experience with drugs or whatever, because you feel that this is the way for you to discover more and to go further in some ways, and that is quite the opposite. The results that come into you is more than fragmentation of your own disfragmentation. Yes. Of your own soul, of your own purity, on your own being. So you think that you are going on the right direction, but it's quite the opposite.
10:34
Hanka
You're going on the wrong direction with good experience but with bad results. And then it's going further and further through this dark hole.
10:41
Jhon
Yeah, well, this is a theme in the new age. There's so many beautiful benefits. Things that are functional, things that do work, things that do have a place. But when they become the object of your final destination, your salvation, or for the sake of a wordplay, then that's the problem. But they do have benefits. Like we just discussed, world champion athletes do. It we see many times. It's been helpful for all of us here. It's been great to detach, but then there's the downside. And to be aware of that. Joao, I want to segue into what you were talking about a bit earlier about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, duality, and then the tree of life. Because the duality is why a lot of us are detaching.
11:17
Jhon
We want to detach from the dualistic drama of positive, negative, attach all of that, and so we're detaching from that. You're sharing some amazing stuff on that. Could you take us there and maybe expand upon that?
11:30
Joao
Yeah. So just for the listeners as well, if you're not familiar with these terms, what it really means is essentially this current world is broken, and it's been broken into dividing parts. And so the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is the recognition and the knowledge of that this world is broken and has good and it has evil. But in a way, it ends up being like a game that's always pulling us to one side or the other. So we do evil and then we want to do good, then we do good, and then we get torn between evil. And we're always on this ping pong game. But the tree of life is essentially the higher place from where everything else comes from, the place of purity, the place of life and beings.
12:08
Joao
We get to experience these two paradigms, let's say, or these two states of being, whether of the tree of knowledge, which is this dual world, or of the tree of life, which comes from a much higher and united source where we feel one with God, we feel one with people. But essentially, I think all humans recognize that this world is broken and we are living in this tree of knowledge.
12:28
Jhon
Tremendous fear. When I'm hearing this duality, I'm also thinking of fear and love, you know, the one we're operating out of fear, the very different gravity to it. And then love.
12:37
Joao
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But essentially, as beings, we are so fragile and we're constantly torn between these opposites. And so I understand that the natural reaction to that is I'm just gonna pull myself away from these opposites, out of the drama. Out of the drama. But that's just the first step, because the next step is to see that there's a higher tree we can eat from. And so maybe the first step of people who do detached observation is they come out, they detached. But when you realize through Christ, this tree of life, you actually get to eat of a new tree that brings you back into participation in this world, but coming from a much higher place, and you're actually now the agent that brings healing to this world.
13:14
Jhon
Love. It connects to me what hunka was showing about the body, soul and spirit. It's like the duality. The knowledge of good and evil is at that soul level. And then all of a sudden we have this encounter with Christ. We invite Christ into our being. We have this fusion with Christ and our spirit comes alive. Tree of life. And then we start to feel power and joy. We talked about EARlier, a joy that goes beyond any logical UnderSTandinG. The BIble talks about a joy that surpasses understanding. Understanding is based on logic, based on dualistic interpretation of reality. So all of a sudden you have this crazy joy, your spirit's alive, and it's life. It's the tree of life. And this is something beyond all the detachment.
13:55
Jhon
Because what you were saying eArlier, Joao, is you can DETACH from the duality, you can detach from the drama of life and have some benefits, but you haven't solved it. You don't have life yet. You've just disconnected from all the chaos, but you're still having to see it. And anytime you want to come back and engage in life, it's still there. So it hasn't gone anywhere.
14:15
Joao
And it's like you're doing a game out of life. It's like I'm game out. I'm not playing. But the tree of life is the next level, because you eat of the tree of life and the food of the tree of life is the currency of the land of the living, as the scripture calls it. And what is the land of the living? It's the place or the atmosphere where the people that are actually living exist. It's basically the arena of life, the way you actually make a change in this world, where you actually grow and help people and bless people and make a positive impact. And I think it's only eating from the tree of life that you can actually fully, say, embody and incarnate into those places.
14:50
Jhon
That's why Jesus said, you know, eat of me and drink of me, because he's light. So we're becoming beings of light. And this is well beyond the duality. This is well beyond the chaos. So this is something very beautiful. And we've all had these experiences where we felt Christ come through us, that we feel alive, we feel invigorated. I remember once we had a friend of ours last year pass away, and I was so exhausted and hurt and completely drained by the whole experience. And so I was definitely 100% caught up in the tree of good and evil, the duality of life, emotions, attachment. I was exhausted. I was lying on my bed, and then all of a sudden I just felt this wind of just complete invigoration come through my spirit. It didn't make any sense.
15:35
Jhon
And I was completely back, fully back with full energy in life again. And I was like, that had to come from my spirit. That came from my union with Christ. It just didn't make any sense. I was completely, it was almost like, brought back to life myself. I was like, wow, that is, I could not have had that experience if I just detached myself and observed what was happening in that painful period in my life. That is the living water. That is the spirit of Christ. That is the life, and that's something that transcends this whole realm. Because Bible talks about he conquered everything, all the realms, all the dimensions. So when we fuse with him, we have that ability to go beyond, whoa. The dualistic drama of life in a way that's powerful.
16:17
Hanka
And what I'm receiving right now, it's between the duality of evil and good. There's a fear of death behind it all, and it locks us into the soul so strongly, so much are you going to consume by that? And then daily we're trying to eat this evil and the good, and we're, like bouncing in between.
16:36
Jhon
And then this is deepen. We're going to keep going. If you open up this part, this is deep, but this is true. This is true. The detachment is actually the mechanism behind it that I've seen in the spirit is death itself and the fear of death and the gravity of death. That's why Jesus says, if you want to lose your life for my sake, you'll gain it. What are you losing? Actually? You're losing your attachment to the world. He says, be in the world, but not of the world. So you're detaching from it. He's right. But now you're eating of him, you're drinking of him, you're in him. That's where the power is. That's where the life is completely different to just detaching from it.
17:13
Hanka
And you are in him and he is in you. Because there's some people that just receive him but doesn't give themselves to him. And the situation he is in terms of spirituality is when we receive him, his spirit, the Holy Spirit, we allow, if we completely honestly allow the transformation to come, we will die in our ego, for ourselves. And he is the one that is going to live in us. And that's why we became the light of the world by his own mind, by his own spirit, by his own character, by his own power. And that it will result in this supernatural power that we are all learning how to live with. That is completely amazing. Overcome any kind of experiences, drugs or situations or whatever.
18:03
Hanka
This is the ultimate goal that we can receive, like a reward by giving our life to him.
18:10
Jhon
When I'm hearing you talk about that, I'm also thinking about, well, this detached observation can really partner with making sure we're in him. So when we see the chaos, the drama, we see ourselves getting caught up in it, which is normal. It happens to all of us all the time. We can then invite him into that part of us. We remain in him and we. We get back to eating off the tree of life. And it's so sweet, it's so delicious, it's so nourishing. So thank you guys for tuning in. We appreciate you. We hope you got something out of that and speak to you again soon.
18:42
Hanka
Thank you.
18:43
Hanka
Thank you.
18:45
Jhon
Thank you for joining us on supernatural breakthroughs. We trust that today's conversation ignited something within you. If you found this valuable, please subscribe and we invite you to leave a review and share this episode with someone who you believe needs to hear it.