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You are a business owner who wants to prioritize people and planet over profits (without sacrificing success). That can feel lonely—but you are not alone! Join host Becky Mollenkamp for in-depth conversations with experts and other founders about how to build a more equitable world through entrepreneurship. It’s time to change the business landscape for good!
Welcome to Feminist Founders, a podcast that explores how to create a more equitable world through entrepreneurship. I’m your host, coach and journalist Becky Mollenkamp. Feminist Founders is a listener-funded podcast. Your contributions enable me to continue bringing you these important conversations without corporate advertising. To support the mission, head to feministfounderspodcast.com and sign up for a paid subscription. The link is in the show notes. Now, onto today’s show.
Greetings! Welcome to the penultimate episode of Season 2 of Feminist Founders podcast. This is the last episode with guests. I will be back next week where my friend is going to turn the tables on me and I will be the guest for the last episode of the season to tell you a little bit more about me and my work. But today we are joined by Bianca Jordan, who is the founder and CEO of Rebel Immigration. It's a legal education and consulting company that provides marketing and growth strategy to solo attorneys. Hers is a story of resilience, of audacity, and of challenging the norms. I think you're gonna really love it. She's awesome. Before we get into it, though, as always, please take a moment to listen to this ad from another amazing podcast in the Feminist Podcasters Collective.
Hi, I'm Alicia Galati, podcast strategist and host of Top 100 Marketing podcast, Listeners to Leads. Podcasting can feel very one-track and lonely. So my goal with Listeners to Leads is to not only support you in growing and monetizing your show by turning your listeners into leads, but also to be able to navigate podcasting in a way that feels right for you. Join me every week on your favorite podcast listening app.
Thank you for your attention. And now let me introduce you to the wonderful Bianca Jordan.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Hi, Bianca. Thanks for being here with me today. Hi, Bianca.
Bianca Jordan:
Thanks so much for having me. This is gonna be so fun.
Becky Mollenkamp:
I'm excited. Let's start with just you telling me a little bit about your relationship with feminism or if you have one at all.
Bianca Jordan:
Sure, I don't really think I have a relationship with feminism. I think I didn't really start thinking about feminism, honestly, until the whole pink pussy hats debacle from a couple years ago, which I think was around the time when Hillary Clinton was running for president. There was this whole movement of, we're going to have these pink pussy hats and we're going to fight to preserve Roe v. Wade. And I feel like it was like a very short-lived movement that was not very inclusive to people that look like me. And it's like, where did you guys go during the midterms when Trump was president? So that's like the only, I guess, thing that comes up for me with feminism.
Becky Mollenkamp:
That's one of the reasons I always ask and there's been a very clear divide, though not every woman of color who's been on the podcast has felt excluded by feminism, but there's a very clear line of white women having these deep relationships with feminism and women of color often saying, I don't really know if it's for me or if it's my sort of space. So thank you for sharing. And I'm excited to talk about your story because you are a lawyer who wanted to be a lawyer since she was 12 years old. And you, the piece of your story, although I'm not a lawyer and I don't think I could ever pass that test, the piece I relate to is you said you were a ‘good girl’ who did everything the right way, and still it didn't work out for you. And while my story doesn't reflect yours, I was a ‘good girl,’ I did everything the right way, and because of my privilege, a lot of things did go my way. And yet I still didn't feel good. I still felt really empty because I had done all the things I was supposed to. But for you, it looked like getting your MBA, getting your Juris Doctorate, and then ending up homeless. And I feel like a person with an MBA and a JD does not fit the narrative that society has given us about homelessness. Tell me how that happened.
Bianca Jordan:
Just for full transparency, like when I say I was homeless, it's not like I was living under a bridge with nothing. I basically didn't have a place to call my own. I was basically couch surfing from, you know, place to place for a little bit, slumming it on people's air mattresses, eventually staying in my friend's basement. So it wasn't like I was on the streets or anything like that. I just didn't have a place to stay.
Becky Mollenkamp:
I think the popular narrative around homelessness is that it looks like the quote unquote bum under the bridge. And that is certainly what homelessness can look like, but it's not the only way that it looks. It also looks like somebody who really wants a home, who happens to have a decent support network of people who are able to put them on their couch, but that's still not what you wanted.
Bianca Jordan:
Definitely. And I'm glad you bring that up too, because I remember, every now and then I'll see people post things like, you know, this person is homeless, but they have an iPhone, they have an Android or whatever, as if people can't be unhoused and have those things. I was one of those people, I had an iPhone, it was cut off because that kind of tends to happen when you don't have money to pay your bills. But I had an iPhone. And the only reason why I was able to use it is because I would either try to sneak into a Starbucks and just try to use their free Wi-Fi until they kick me out for not buying anything. Or I would be on the sidewalk in front of a Starbucks trying to latch onto their Wi-Fi so I could check my email to see if any jobs had reached out to me. And so how I ended up in this situation is really a job offer that I had fell through, and so I moved. I left Massachusetts to go down to the DMV area with this job that fell through as soon as I got there. And so I applied to over 500 jobs that summer. Nobody wanted to hire me. And I ran through my savings, my retirement. I ran through literally everything I had, and I didn't really have a choice. And so after applying to all those 500 jobs where nobody wanted me. It's like everyone had Goldilocks syndrome. It was like I was either too qualified because I was an attorney with an MBA, or I wasn't enough because I literally just passed the bar a month ago, or got sworn into the bar a month ago. And so after applying to over 500 jobs, I was like, screw it, I'll just hire myself since nobody wants to hire me and that's how I started my law firm.
Becky Mollenkamp:
What do you think it was that was making somebody who does seem so appealing to me with an MBA and a JD? What do you think it was that was keeping people from hiring you?
Bianca Jordan:
Honestly, I think it was the economy at the time. So this was happening around 2014. The recession had ended a couple of years before, but for the legal industry, it was still reeling. Like if you go back right now and look, anybody who graduated from law school in the year 2010, a lot of people consider that to be like the lost year because a lot of those graduates could not find work. They had their, some of them had jobs waiting for them at big law firms and they had to defer or just pull the job offer altogether. And I remember reading an article in The New York Times about someone who graduated from Columbia Law School, could not find a job, and ended up just teaching people how to take the LSAT, which I thought was so interesting because a lot of us, a lot of attorneys will tell you don't go to law school, it's not even worth it anymore. And so for someone that educated to end up having to teach people how to get into law school to potentially end up having the same fate as him was really interesting. But even though this was years afterwards, the economy, at least for the legal industry, had changed a lot. In the previous, during the Obama administration, that's when the Big Four accounting crumbled and we had to bail them out and everything. And so a lot of business that those big law firms relied on was no longer there. And so they didn't really need to hire all these people. And I think that just kind of trickled down. And so by the time it got to me, I graduated in 2013, but failed the bar and passed the second time around. So by the time I was actually looking for work in 2014, the economy just hadn't really rebound yet. And I think that we're going to experience or are already experiencing something similar right now with AI taking over the legal space. So it's really just one of those things where I don't blame anything or anyone other than it was just wrong timing, but it ended up working out for me.
Becky Mollenkamp:
It did because you started your own thing and doing things differently. And I want to talk a lot about that. Before we do, what made you want to be an attorney, especially after reading? Well, by the time you're reading that article, maybe it was too late because you were already through your program. But what was it that made you want to be an attorney when we know it's a field that is challenging?
Bianca Jordan:
So I blame my seventh grade teacher for this. It was during a school field trip. We had to go to a courthouse and we had to reenact the Boston Massacre. And I was super shy, quiet. I still am, nobody believes me. But at 12, I was even more shy and quiet. And my teacher literally forced me. She's like, you're going to play the role of John Adams. And if you don't, I'm going to fail you. And at the time I was like, you know, straight-A student, super nerdy, like I'm not getting this F at all. So I had to just figure it out, summon up the courage to play the role of John Adams, who in the Boston massacre was the attorney for the defendants, the soldiers that killed all the people. And so playing that role, I memorized the lines really quickly. I didn't mess up. I wasn't nervous. I felt completely in control and confident. And on the bus ride home, I remember saying, this was actually kind of cool. I think I want to be an attorney when I grow up. I had no idea what exactly a lawyer did or anything, but I just loved that experience in that field trip so much that I decided to be an attorney when I grew up and I did.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Good for you. Why the MBA?
Bianca Jordan:
I majored in international business. And for whatever reason, I had always told myself that whatever I major in college, I wanted a master's in it. And so I just got the MBA. And my company paid for it. So I didn't really, you know.
Becky Mollenkamp:
You got a job, that offer was revoked, you could not find another job. 500 applications later, at some point you decided, I'm just gonna do this myself. What gave you the gumption or as I've seen you talking about lately on social media, the audacity to think that you could start your own business in that situation?
Bianca Jordan:
I didn't have a choice was the long and short of it. I just finished law school. My student loans were due. I have six-figures in student loan debt. I need to work. I need to make money. And all I knew is that I had this newly minted law license. So I was like, what do I need at a bare minimum to actually be an attorney and deliver legal services to people? I need Wi-Fi and my law license. So I had both. So I was like, all right, let me just go out there and start, you know, lawyering pretty much. I didn't really have a choice.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Necessity is the mother of all invention, I believe they've said. So in this case, that was true. And yet I think many people in your situation might have just said, I'm going to go work at Starbucks and they're going to give me health insurance. And at least that will mean I have those basic needs met. And then at some point I'll get back to this. So I think I hear you saying necessity, but I think there's more to that there. There's something about you that made you say, no, I'm going to do this for myself. Can you pinpoint what that was?
Bianca Jordan:
I have a shit ton of tenacity. It's the long and short of it. I'm one of those people where if you tell me I can't do something or if something seems impossible, I have to try it. Even my husband, my husband now to this day, he'll tell me, okay, something super simple, you don't get it. But like throw a couple obstacles in it and all of a sudden it's like super easy for you. So for me, part of it was I'm the first person in my family to even, you know, go to college, you know, graduate from college, go to law school, all that stuff. So I didn't have anyone, you know, to show me the way I had to figure it out on my own. And I also didn't really have a choice. I don't come from, you know, money. I don't have like a rich mommy and daddy with a law firm to pass down to me. Like this is pretty much my legacy creating something that, you know, I can have that I can call my own. And so for me, it was really just like, I really want to do this thing because I don't really have a choice. Part of it was also just being petty and spiteful, like, oh, y'all don't want to hire me. Okay, well, I'll hire myself and I will just be the dopest immigration attorney ever, and y'all regret not hiring me. It was kind of just a lot of that. Like, you know, nobody wants me. Fine. I don't need y'all because I love me and I'm just going to, you know, do the damn thing. And I'm going to do it better than you ever could. And so that was really what it was. I had to do it. But it was also just a matter of I guess in a way proving the naysayers wrong because, you know, and in my mind I had naysayers because at the time I did take it personally that all these people didn't want me because my whole life it was, you know, I'm the daughter of immigrants. So education is really important to immigrants. And so my whole life I was told get an education because that's what's going to guarantee you the high paying salary. You're going to be set for life. You're going to have a 401k and all that stuff. And it's like, I did all those things. I didn't, in college, I didn't go wild and crazy for spring break, never went on spring break. I did everything right because I didn't wanna ever mess up anything or mess up my ability to become an attorney one day. I went to law school, I passed the bar, I applied for jobs. I got the education and then some, and I still can't get work. So it was just a lot of, it was definitely a reality check where it's like, even if you do everything right, your life can totally go left. And it's really just, what's important is how you handle that and I just, you know, I definitely cried and all that good stuff. I cried enough where it's a miracle that I don't need an IV to this day, I lost so many fluids from crying. But it's just one of those things where it's like, I didn't have a choice and I also wanted to just to people that, well, I don't need you anyway because I'm better than whatever job you can give me.
Becky Mollenkamp:
You know, spite gets a bad rap, but it can be highly motivating and a very useful emotion when channeled the right way. So I love that. And I want to talk a little more in a bit about the American Dream because you quickly learned that whole idea is a bit of a lie. And you work in immigration and that is a lot of what brings immigrants to America is this idea of this American Dream. So I want to talk a little more about that and your history with all of that. But first, let's go back to starting your firm in 2014. And when you talked to me about it, you started this firm as an entirely virtual firm in 2014, which was well in advance of most of the world catching up to the idea of online business and certainly your industry, which is a more traditional industry, shall we say the legal industry tends to be slower moving on advances. So it's interesting to hear about AI. I wanna hear more about that too, but what gave you the audacity to start a virtual firm? And what was the reaction that you were hearing from people inside your industry when you did that?
Bianca Jordan:
I didn't originally start my virtual law firm to be a trendsetter. It was really just out of necessity. I barely had enough money to pay for my law license, which at the time was maybe around $200. And I barely had enough money for that. When I started my law firm, I had enough money for my law license, a URL and business cards. That's all I had. I didn't have money for marketing. I sure as hell didn't have money for an office space anywhere. And so I was like, well, you know what? I just need Wi-Fi and my law license and that's it. And so I just focused on what I absolutely needed to start my business. Not all the bells and whistles of things that they tell you lawyers are supposed to have. I just had my law license and Wi-Fi, which allowed me to have my website, it allowed me to get the word out. I had a growing social media following. So all I did was tell my social media followers, hey, I'm an attorney. Here's what I can help y'all with and here's how to get in touch with me. That's all I did. And the attorneys that I would meet, because I would start to go to networking events and just say, hey, I'm an attorney. And the first question they would ask me is, where's your office located? And at first I started to feel embarrassed because I didn't have one. So I started to spin it and say, well, you know, I'm a virtual law firm. I bring the law to you. And here I am thinking that's going to be cute and cheeky and they're going to love it. And these lawyers are like, that's not a real thing. Are you even a real lawyer? You probably didn't even go to a great law school. We don't trust you. I'm not going to refer any cases to you. Best of luck. And so I said, fine, again, being spiteful. Well, I don't need y'all. Anyway, I have my social media following I can just tap into social. It's free marketing. The ROI was ridiculous. Around that same time, too, I started to learn that there's a lot of immigrants in this country, really the world, that want to hire attorneys, that need to hire attorneys. They just don't have access to us. And it's not about the money. It's literally just they don't know where to find them. They don't know how to get access to them. They don't maybe speak the same language as them. So there's a lot of people living in legal deserts. So I figured, well, social media is my way to get in touch with people. I speak a couple different languages. Let me create some content in different languages and let me get the word out to people through my social media so that as long as you have an internet connection, no matter where you live, you can get in touch with me. And doing that, not only was I sharing a lot of legal education that people now had access to, but I was also getting clients from it as well.
Becky Mollenkamp:
That was 2014. At that time, inside of your industry, you're hearing people say like, are you a real lawyer? That's not how we do this. That's not how things are done. And then COVID hit. What changed when COVID hit in your industry and the way people reflected or responded to you?
Bianca Jordan:
By nature, most lawyers are very boring people, very risk-averse people, very like, ‘this is how we've always done it and this is how we always need to do it.’ And I've been rebelling against my industry since the day I got my license. Like, I've just been very like, no, maybe that's how you have to do it or that's how you had to do it, but that way doesn't work for me. I literally cannot afford to practice law in the way that you want to, so I need to make it work for me. And so that's been my whole, to this day, like I'm just trying to fight everything in the legal industry. So during COVID, it forced lawyers to have to pivot. Lawyers aren't really great at that. They're very like, ‘I'm set in my ways and this is how I'm gonna do it.’ And COVID really forced us to think outside of the box. And so for me, it was brilliant. Like when I started my law firm, it was all, ‘I'm a virtual law firm, I bring the law to you.’ Once COVID hit, I just changed my messaging to, ‘I can help you from a social distance’ because everybody was all about social distancing. And so it was really just like keeping an eye on what was happening around me and just mirroring my messaging to what people are experiencing. And pre everything getting shut down, I had started earlier that year in 2020 going live every Friday on Facebook, just talking about different immigration updates. And I would always end closer to when things were shut down in COVID, I would always end with something positive. I'd say something like, ‘this is temporary, we're gonna get through it. This is going to be over before you know it. Oh, and by the way, immigration is still open. So, holla, I can help you with a green card.’ And I started getting a lot of clients. And one of the things that they would tell me is they're like, you're the only one that's still marketing consistently. You're the only one that seems to be virtual. Because pre-, you know, everybody's using Zoom all of a sudden. But I was already doing this through Skype. Like, I was already, I had clients in Italy and New Zealand. So, I was already using Skype with them, you know, figuring out the different time zones and whatnot. I was already representing people in immigration hearings through the phone, like in immigration court. Judges would literally just call me and I'd be representing a client in Colorado when I'm in my living room in Boston. So I was already doing this pre-COVID. I had already been a paperless office because I didn't have an office. So I'd already been doing all of the things. I didn't have to go virtual. I was already virtual. So in a way it was kind of like, I'm not new to this. I'm true to this. I've already been doing this. Granted it was by an accident, but it really helped me come 2020 and a lot of clients who hired me, I was getting clients, they'd fire their old attorney and come hire me because they're like, ‘well, my attorney can't even get me my case file because it's at their office and they say they can't go because the building is closed.’ I don't have any files at a building because I'm a virtual law firm. I got a lot of business during COVID. Again, I would continue to market. Every week, I would share different client wins. I'd be like, ‘help me congratulate this client on their green card today.’ And slowly but surely attorneys started sliding in my DMs and they're like, ‘how are you still even open? The world is closed. How are you getting clients?’ And I'm like social media, like I've been on social media. And then once I joined TikTok, my law firm definitely exploded during COVID. Cause at the time, at that point, I was mostly marketing on Instagram and YouTube. But once I joined TikTok, everything changed because TikTok is a search engine. I wish more people would pay attention to that, but that's a conversation for another day. But like, I was really just being consistent and also spreading positivity. Like everybody around you was talking about, oh my God, everyone's gonna die. And this is, you know, mayhem. And I was like, ‘but we're gonna be okay.’ And also like social distancing was perfect for me because I came out of the womb, like not wanting to be around people and just wanting to social distance. So I was ready, like once COVID hit, I'm like. All I gotta do is stay home and wash my hands. I was literally made for this. So it was totally fine for me.
Becky Mollenkamp:
The piece about people sliding into your DMs. That's the part that's interesting and yes some of its luck right? But luck is what? Where opportunity meets preparation. And you had done all the hard work and the preparation and all that time of having to kind of explain why you were doing things differently. Suddenly COVID hits. And now there's this opportunity that created the luck of saying, boy, suddenly lawyers wanted you to tell them how to do what you were doing. And now you have a second part of your business. In addition to doing immigration law and practicing law, you're also a law firm strategist that helps solo attorneys who want to work less and pay themselves more. You're basically taking everything you were doing, that at one point people in your industry were scoffing at, and now teaching them how to do that very thing. Talk about spite. Does that feel good?
Bianca Jordan:
I mean, it feels amazing. I mean, I don't wanna say I'm a trendsetter, but I was definitely a trendsetter. I was an accidental trendsetter, which I think is even better. But yeah, like, so I ended up starting a second business during COVID called Rebel Immigration. Again, with, you know, I've been rebelling against this industry my whole entire career, so Rebel Immigration. And it's really, you know, a legal education and strategy company for attorneys that wanna start their own law firm like I did but without making all the same mistakes that I did. I made all these mistakes because I didn't have any mentors. I didn't even know about coaching, nor could I afford it even if I knew about it. So I had to figure things out on my own. And so through my company, I'm able to help attorneys do the same thing with maybe less mistakes along the way. So I love it. And during COVID in particular, everyone, it wasn't even about how to start a law firm. It was, how do I go virtual? How do I even market on social media? Because again, most attorneys are very boring. Attorneys are really big on referrals. They mostly focus on referrals. And this year it really came to bite attorneys in the ass, but they only focus on referrals. I've never focused on referrals. They either focused on referrals or ads. Two things I've never done. And so, they were like, how do we even figure out the social media thing? And I just started sharing what I know, because I'm a very giving person. I can talk about this stuff all day. And I just started telling people left and right, like, this is how you market on social. These are the types of posts you need to post. This is what you need to do on YouTube and whatnot. And then my mom is like, okay, so you're just going to give all this information out for free? You don't have bills to pay? You don't have six figures in student loan debt that you need to, get rid of? So I just started thinking, okay, maybe I should actually turn this into a company. And so I did. And the first thing I did was a masterclass called Six Figure Social, where I showed attorneys how to leverage social media. I think I only focused on three social media platforms. And then I sold the replay, and a lot of attorneys bought the replay and the feedback I was getting was I wish you went a little bit deeper or I wish you gave us more examples and whatnot. So I ended up turning it into a course with 10 modules where I go through all the major social media platforms, who's on them, demographic wise, income wise, what to post, how to engage, how to convert them into clients and all that stuff.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Thank God for your mom telling you, make money on this. And even if you're not an attorney, like if you're listening to this episode, I think a really important thing to take from this is, those things that people are sliding into your DMs and asking you all the questions about, the stuff that you could talk for hours about, the stuff that comes really easy for you and you get excited talking about, there's money in them there hills. That is a place to be charging money. Don't give it away for free. And just because it may not be the thing that you do, like in your case, being a lawyer, it's still something that you should be paid for if it is something that you have skills and expertise in. Good job, mom. I wanna talk about, rebelling. Brazen, rebellious, you're clearly a fighter who wants to go against the grain. And I love that because that's really what we're talking about here, is doing business differently, challenging norms. What are the norms inside of the legal industry that you are fighting against?
Bianca Jordan:
All of them. So the legal industry is very white, very male. There's only like less than 5% of attorneys are Black. And as an immigration attorney, I'm pretty sure that number is even smaller because that's the specialty. And so for me, one thing I've always challenged is what an attorney looks like. Even before I started practicing on my own, I actually wrote an article for an organization because I remember going to get my nails done around the time that I found out that I passed the bar. And so I was telling my nail tech that I finally passed the bar and I was going to get sworn in soon. And the woman next to me looked at me and she was like, you're a lawyer? And at the time, like I had my ‘fro out, some of my tattoos were visible. I had my tongue pierced at the time. And so I didn't really ‘look like’ a lawyer, like how people would look if they Google. And at the time, so I Googled and I was like, well, then what does a lawyer look like, because that's the first time, you know, someone had ever told me that. So I was like, let me go Google and see what a lawyer looks like. And sure enough, there was no one that looked like me. There were no Black women, no Black men. So I wrote an article, you know, basically saying that, you know, I am what a lawyer looks like because I am one. And since then, I've been very unapologetic. I'm always telling people, you don't get this Black Girl magic, whether you like it or not, because this is what I look like, and I am an attorney. I either always wear my hair in twists like this, or my ‘fro is out. I've had blue braids. I've won cases with my hair blue. I am so unapologetic about how I show up, because for me, I was never one of those people that needs to see someone that looks like them to know they can do it too. But I do recognize that for people coming up behind me, that they do need to see that. So who knows? Maybe someone coming up behind me who sees a dope black immigration attorney that's out here just doing the damn thing, maybe that might motivate them to want to become one as well, or might motivate them to have a little bit more confidence in showing up as their 1000% authentic self, because I'm going to do it regardless. So that's my biggest thing that I challenge in the legal profession. The other would be access to justice, which I've always been a champion for. Part of why I stuck with the virtual law firm model, even after I could afford an office, was because I still wanna make sure that I'm reaching those people that aren't in Massachusetts, reaching those people that don't have any access to their attorney. I will always market on social media until I die because it allows me to reach people no matter where they are. And right now we have a huge access to justice gap that is worth $3 trillion. And it's not because people don't have money to pay their attorneys, they don't have access to them. And access could mean literally physical access. It could be language barriers. It could be that the way that they need services delivered to them, attorneys don't want to do. Because again, a lot of attorneys are very, ‘this is how it's always been.’ Like, of course I can't do e-signature and electronic payments. Like I need to get a paper check and cash. And it's like, if you want to work at the Oregon Trail, just say that. And we need to change how we're delivering legal services to people. If all your clients are saying, ‘I want to hire you, but I need you to do X, Y, Z.’ And you're like, ‘nope, I'm going to still do it the way that we've always done it since 1980, whatever,’ you're going to lose people. And we can't keep up with the access to justice gap to the point where states are now starting to license non-attorneys to provide legal services in limited scope. And so there's just so much that's happening in the legal landscape right now. AI is a big part of it, but for me, my biggest things that I fight are just making sure that we're being represented, that non-straight white men are being represented in the legal industry and also just being at the helm of all the innovation that's happening in the legal industry right now.
Becky Mollenkamp:
I love the access, and I wonder if those two things are at least somewhat related. I think you can still have access and not have safety or comfort in hiring someone who doesn't look anything like you and who makes it seem like they are above you because I get that feeling a lot from attorneys. This feeling of like, I earned my JD and that makes me better than you in some way. And that's hard to hire an attorney like that. So I wonder if the first piece actually helps you with the second piece. Do you find that being unabashedly you and showing up and saying, I look different, I am out there and proud of being who I am. Does that help you also with getting more, like does it help you with your clients? Do you hear from them that that's something that they actually felt like made you more approachable?
Bianca Jordan:
Yeah, definitely. So aside from being this way, I also infuse a lot of my culture into my marketing, my content, a lot of my content centers, Black and Brown immigrants, not that I'm, you know, excluding my white clients and things like that. But I always want to make sure that my marketing and my content centers Black and Brown immigrants, because those are the people that struggle the most in dealing with and navigating our complicated immigration system. And they're being represented, majority, by people that don't look like them, don't understand the culture, don't speak the language. And that matters sometimes. I've had clients where they've gone to white attorneys that didn't really understand what was going on culturally and their case was denied. And then when they come to me, I'm like, oh, this is totally, you know, easy to explain to a white immigration officer that's not familiar with their culture because I'm the same culture as you and I get it. So I can, you know, craft your case in a way where this isn't really a big thing. A common example is Americans love to celebrate like any freaking holiday. We have a doughnut day and a green plant day. We have a day for everything it seems like. And immigrants don't really care too much. Even, you know, they don't really always celebrate birthdays. I know a lot of immigrants who have been like, I didn't even know when my birthday was until I came to America. My mom is one of those immigrants. They never really, my mom didn't grow up celebrating birthdays. It's like an American thing to do. And so when you go to an immigration interview and they're asking you like, what did you do for your last birthday? What did you do for your last anniversary or whatever? And you're like, nothing, they're going to think like, oh, well, maybe this marriage is fake because how could you not celebrate each other's birthdays? But culturally, we just don't do that. So having an attorney that understands that stuff can be there at the interview to kind of interject and explain that to the immigration officer or maybe someone who's a different culture than you might not. Similarly, or related rather, I've also heard horror stories. I've had clients who come to me after going to certain white law firms where they've been made to feel less than. I think a lot attorneys approach immigration law from a place of pity where they're kind of like, oh, these poor immigrants are coming up and they don't have anything and I gotta help them. And it's like a lot of these immigrants are, not only are they like rolling in money, but they were like doctors, lawyers, engineers in their home country. And they have to start over here because you can’t just be the top brain surgeon in India and all of a sudden you're gonna be doing that here. And so the amount of bravery it takes to leave a country, to come here is worth celebrating, and that's what I do in my law firm. And I've had so many horror stories where clients have come to me and they've gone to other white law firms that have treated them horribly, made fun of their accent, not really given them the proper respect that they deserve. So I think definitely, culturally, it definitely matters if you have an attorney that looks like you and understands your culture, speaks your language. There's just that inherent comfort there.
Becky Mollenkamp:
I just love that your, the differences, the things that we often are made to believe are false, you're embracing them as your superpowers, recognizing that they can be and I and I think that's an important thing for people to hear. And again, not that it's easy, you know, you this was, I don't think any part of your journey from the time you graduated school, at least, on was easy, but there was something inside of you. And I don't know if it's about your, the parenting you received or your culture or what it is, but there's something inside of you that not everyone has that has allowed you to understand these things that other people might be telling me are problems, I know that they're my freaking superpowers. And here's how I embrace that. And you mentioned that your parents were immigrants, or are immigrants. And I wanted you to hear about the reason for focusing on immigrants. immigration law. But before that, do you think that there is something about the parenting you received or about your culture or about that immigration? What is it, do you think, that has allowed you to see all of these things as your superpowers?
Bianca Jordan:
Maybe. So my parents are from Haiti, so I'm Haitian-American, and Haiti was the first Black country to free itself from slavery and kind of created the blueprint for other countries, other people, including America, to get their freedom from slavery. So in a way, it's kind of like that tenacity, that audacity and boldness, and just self-determination, it literally runs through my veins. Like I have a tattoo that says ‘persevere.’ And so like I have to, I have to persevere no matter what. And I think also just from my parents. My mom, you know, from a very young age instilled, you know, making sure that I loved myself. I was always like the only Black girl in my classes. And my mom from a young age was like, you know, yeah, you're the only Black girl in these classes, but you're not inferior to the other white people, you're just different. And embracing that at five years old and just carrying that with me all throughout life. And then, you know, my dad, my dad has always been a serial entrepreneur. So I've always seen that hustle in him. I've always seen him, you know, trying to make something out of nothing. And it's probably his fault that I probably can't work for anybody ever again, you know? I get something from each of my parents and I think that's what really keeps me going.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Don't underestimate the power that we have as parents to influence our children into self-belief. That's so important. And I think that was a piece that you didn't mention earlier that I think may have also been part of that audacity to start your own business is the fact that you saw that in your father, which is awesome. I wanted to ask you about what motivated you to get into immigration law, and I'm guessing it has to do with your parents' journey. Can you tell me a little bit about the decision to go into immigration law?
Bianca Jordan:
Sure, so it actually had nothing to do with my parents. I had always wanted to be an international human rights lawyer. And I did some international human rights work abroad and I loved it, but I really wanted to do similar work in the US, because I didn't want to be away from my family. So it was kind of like, how do I figure out what, like what's related to this that I can do in the US? And for me, that's immigration, even though it's not really directly human rights work. It's helping people, it's defending their rights. It's helping them live safely in America. So I kind of just gravitated towards immigration law in that sense, because it was basically the same, but in America. And I did an immigration law clinic at my law school for a year, fell in love with it. I got to represent actual clients. So it's kind of like how Elle Woods or in Legally Blonde, Elle Woods was representing clients in criminal proceedings was the same thing except for immigration laws. It was really fun. I actually got to pretend to be a lawyer, but helping people with their cases. So I just loved it. And all of my internships were immigration related as well.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Interesting that it had nothing to do with your parents. Does your personal journey, whether it's your parents' story and your relationship with them or your own journey through not having a home for a while, do those things affect how you relate to your clients and how you show up as a lawyer for them now?
Bianca Jordan:
Definitely, absolutely. Even though I'm not an immigrant myself, I've been around enough immigrants to know what's important to them, what they struggle with, what they wanna accomplish in their lives, so definitely.
Becky Mollenkamp:
I think immigration is a hot button issue, obviously, in the US. You are from or lived in Texas for a while, is that right? Where it's clearly a very big issue. How does that experience of having lived in Texas inform your feelings about and understanding of immigration?
Bianca Jordan:
I last lived in Texas when I was younger. So it's not like I never lived in it and experienced all of what's happening now. I think, as of the date of this recording, the governor of Texas just implemented a law that if people cross the border into Texas, it's now illegal. And last I checked, the Constitution was still alive and well. I mean, it's on life support, but it's still alive and well. And you kind of can't do that because immigration law is federal and the 10th Amendment applies, so states can't just do whatever they want. But I think immigration is very misunderstood. I think a lot of people think that immigrants are coming here. And like Trump said, ‘they're sending their worst.’ And that's not true. And especially because a lot of immigrants know that if they make it to America, they have to be on their best behavior because their goal is to make a better life for them and their family. If you can make it to America, you could literally be that person that can now bring other family members in. And immigrants don't want to mess that up for anything. So the notion that immigrants are coming and committing crimes and whatnot is not true. Are there some people that do? Sure, but the vast majority are not. Are they stealing American jobs? No, because Kim Kardashian was kind of right, nobody wants to work. And so you have a lot of companies that actually want to hire Americans and they just don't want to. During COVID, we saw a lot of people opting to get unemployment instead of going to work. And so we saw a lot of industries struggling with hiring people. Immigrants can fill those jobs. Americans don't really learn well anymore. Like we're learning algebra and trig when five-year-olds in other countries are learning calculus, you know? Our education system isn't even that great anymore, but immigrants are adding to that. They're adding to making us a little bit more educated. Also things like population control. Who can afford to have kids anymore? Kids are expensive. They come out of the womb with an invoice, like literally. And so, and it's like when we have, everything outside is expensive. Inflation is ridiculous. Student loans are back on. We're funding a couple of wars. When do we have the time and money to have children? Immigrants do though, when they come here, immigrants have kids and they contribute to our population growth. So I think when people, you know, if people could just broaden their view of what immigration does for us, I think they would have a little bit more respect for the sacrifices that immigrants have to make to come here, and the contributions as well. If we got rid of all these immigration programs, if we got rid of every single immigrant tomorrow, America would be screwed because a quarter of all doctors in America are immigrants. Imagine COVID, and we didn't have immigrants. We have an aging population in the United States where a ton of people are now retiring and some of them are going off to nursing homes and assisted-living facilities. A lot of Americans, unfortunately, don't want that work, but they're the ones that are now becoming residents in these nursing homes. Immigrants are proudly taking over that sector and doing this work. So when I hear of, you know, states that are very, you know, screw all the immigrants and kick them out, it's like, I don't think you understand what you're getting yourself into by not having them, especially because a lot of y'all that are hating immigrants, you have immigrants working for you, whether it's your house manager or your housekeeper, your child's nanny or child's tutor, your driver, your whatever, none of us lives every day and, you know, just functions without an immigrant touching one part of our lives.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Yeah, it's not that I will only say I don't think Kim Kardashian's entirely right, nor do I think you think that. But yes, she's right in that there are types of work that Americans don't want to do. And that is work that unfortunately, I think in some ways often falls to highly overeducated immigrants who are doing work that we don't want to do. You mentioned earlier that Black and Brown immigrants have a tougher time than other immigrants. And I wonder what have you learned that maybe you didn't know before practicing this law about some of those differences? Because my external view of it is that so much of this rhetoric about immigration that you've been talking about the other arguments for those things, so much of that is really grounded in racism. It is about, not that we don't want immigration, we don't want a certain kind of immigration. Is that what you are discovering in your practice? And have you been surprised by anything you've discovered as you've been practicing immigration law?
Bianca Jordan:
Absolutely. I'll be the first to say that our immigration system is very racist. I actually did a video a couple days ago where I kind of called it out a little bit. Things that I've learned. So we have a visa in the United States. It's the TN visa that is available to both Canadians and Mexicans. Canadians can literally go to the border and say, hey, I want this visa and they can get processed pretty quickly. Mexicans can't do that though. They have to actually apply and go through a whole process. We're constantly talking about immigration coming through the southern border. Never do we talk about the immigration that's coming from the Canadian border also illegally. There are a lot of people that maybe look like you that cross through the Canadian border illegally, and we barely talk about it. But sure, let's talk about all the Black and Brown ones that are coming up through Mexico for consular processing, which is basically getting a green card outside of the United States. I'm finding that for Black and Brown countries, the wait time is significantly longer than it is for, you know, let's say Italy, for example. The wait time between getting a green card for someone in Mexico or Brazil is going to be significantly higher for someone in Italy. Also, we have something called ESTA, which is basically the visa waiver program where certain countries, if you're from certain countries, you don't even need a visa. You can just enroll in this program and you can come to the United States whenever you want to. Guess which countries are mostly on those lists? Mostly white ones. So there's a lot of this within our own immigration system, and it seeps into other countries as well. We saw with the last administration where the Trump administration was pretty much like let's just end immigration. And we saw a lot of other countries follow suit. We have Brexit, you know, in England, like a lot of these countries are just kind of adopting what they see America doing. And for a country that sits on the Human Rights Council of the United Nations, you would think we would do better, but we don't. So there's definitely a lot of that. And so for me, it's very important for me that I help Black and Brown immigrants to figure out how to navigate this because you can't really play the game if you don't know the rules or you don't understand the rules and you don't have someone representing you that does.
Becky Mollenkamp:
This podcast is mostly for business owners. So what would you want business owners to know about immigration and immigrants and how maybe they are able to help in the process?
Bianca Jordan:
So first of all, immigrants are more likely to come here and start a small business and then employ people in their community than native-born people. So immigrants coming in here into the United States to start businesses is actually a really great thing for our economy, which other countries recognize. Like this year, earlier this year, Canada decided, you know, to create a whole new visa for immigrants in the US who couldn't get one here. So for small businesses, one thing that's really important is that they can hire immigrant workers. There are a variety of work visa options that they could do to hire immigrant workers, whether as a contractor, or if you just wanna hire them as an employee. They can hire people overseas. Maybe you have a VA working for you in the Philippines or in Brazil or something, and you really love that person and you want to bring them to the US to just work for you full-time here. There's a way for you to do that. There's a variety of different visa options that you can petition for this person to be able to come in and work for you here.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Is that something that you help employers with?
Bianca Jordan:
Mmm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Because I think often people may be nervous about that. I think there's a lot of discrimination that happens in hiring for folks who are on a visa or need a visa because I think ultimately a lot of that, to me, I think the discrimination is just about not wanting to deal with the paperwork and the work involved. Is that what you find? And is it as hard as people maybe think it is?
Bianca Jordan:
Yes and no. So part of it is there is discrimination because it's a long process. Depending on the visa type, it could be as quick as a couple months or as long as two and a half years. And then again, it depends on the country that the person was born in. If you are from India, China, Mexico, or the Philippines, your wait time is going to be ridiculous. Some people are waiting decades for a green card depending on the country that you're from. If you're from India or Mexico, you're waiting like a couple of decades. So there is, you know, there is the whole, there's a lot of paperwork. The Department of Labor is very strict because their main job is to make sure that they're protecting American workers. So when you're going through this process, as a small business in the United States who maybe wants to hire a foreign worker, the Department of Labor is going to scrutinize that application and you have to show proof that you tried to hire someone who's already here in America and that you just couldn't find that person and you absolutely need to hire this immigrant worker. So it's definitely a long process. But the other challenge that some smaller businesses might have, depending on what stage they are in their journey, is the cost. Because under our laws, the majority of these fees have to be paid for by the company. And so if you're a small business wanting to hire an immigration attorney to help you hire someone, you're looking at maybe a total investment of maybe I'll round up and say $15,000. You're not paying all that money upfront, right when you hire the attorney, but all in you're looking at about that much. And obviously you can discuss with your tax professional to see if that's a tax write-off or whatever, but it is a large investment that businesses would have to make in this person. I think that sometimes when I speak to small businesses, sometimes their fear is, well, what if I get this person a green card on Monday and then they leave me on Tuesday? First of all, the likelihood of that happening is slim to none because most immigrants are creatures of habit. As long as they're being treated well at their job, they will stay until they don't want to be there anymore. My mom just retired from a job after working for the company for 35 years. I could never, but immigrants do. So the likelihood that will happen is slim to none. Secondly, in order for them to get the green card, they actually have to stay at the job for X amount of time because they've just told immigration that they would stay there if they got the green card. And then third, hiring an immigrant that maybe leaves you right after getting the green card is no different from hiring an American who decides on their lunch break that they don't wanna work at the company anymore. I have done that. I have worked at a company and by lunchtime, I was like, this is not for me because I learned that they were trying to do some sketchy stuff. And I was like, you know what? This is not my thing. And I quit that same day, same thing.
Becky Mollenkamp:
I wanted to just talk a little bit more about Brazen Legal University. So in addition to doing law, in addition to teaching lawyers how to do business differently and virtually, you also are doing Brazen Legal University, which is part of that mission that you're on to address that justice gap in the immigration community. And so it's low-cost resources?
Bianca Jordan:
It's basically providing low-cost resources so that people who either can't afford to hire an attorney or just flat out don't want to hire an attorney, they can still be empowered to handle their case on their own. So I have courses that kind of walk people through, like, this is how you apply for citizenship, and it goes through the form that you're going to need to apply, it goes through prep for your interview. I have a course on how to prep for your green card application. How to apply for your green card on your own, whether you're doing it from inside the US or outside of the US. So it's kind of just empowering people to be able to do this stuff on their own.
Becky Mollenkamp:
You've been hinting on Threads that you have something in elsewhere on social that you have something coming out soon. So tell me about this new offering you have.
Bianca Jordan:
Sure. So this is through Rebel Immigration and it's called New Solo Blueprint. And it is a course that's designed to help attorneys start their law firm from scratch, whether they are leaving an existing law firm to now start their own, or it could also be a new attorney who is starting their legal career from scratch like I did. Maybe they just graduated from law school, just passed the bar, and they know that they're ready to kind of start this journey on their own. And I created this course really because in 2014, I had nothing, I had no resources, I had no one to turn to, I had to figure this stuff out all on my own. And the learning curve was super steep. And so for me, I wanted to create this so that people who are just starting out would have a resource. And over the last couple of years, I've been in a lot of different group coaching programs and a lot of information, lawyers love to gatekeep information, and a lot of these programs are very dependent on, you know, how much money you invest is how much information you're going to get. My course pretty much doesn't gatekeep anything. I go through what you need to consider with ethics. You know, so if you're an attorney and you want to start a virtual law firm in 2024, this is what you need to know about ethics. I'm all about helping you build your law firm in a way that's not gonna let you lose your law license because I see a lot of lawyers posting client social security numbers and things on social media. And it's like, if you wanna get disbarred, just say that. So all of my stuff that I teach is really just so that you can show up online and build your business in a way that's not gonna get you disbarred. So I don't gatekeep anything. I share ethical considerations. What's the best business entity for you to have, what you should offer in your law firm, what's your client journey going to look like from start to finish, how are you going to price things, how do you know when you need to hire. I include worksheets and templates, so much stuff in this, so that way by the time you're done, it's like you're creating your own blueprint for your own individual law firm.
Becky Mollenkamp:
I know not everyone listening to this will be a lawyer. However, I think a lot of the things that you learned about running an online business, starting an online business from nothing, are gonna be things that anyone, especially with a service-based business, would be able to benefit from, which is why our bonus content for this episode is gonna be three tips for starting a business when you have nothing. And we will get to that after this. And if you wanna hear that bonus content, just subscribe to the Feminist Founders newsletter. It's free. And inside of there, there's also a community of other people who care deeply about social justice and equity that you can meet. And the last thing I wanted to ask you about, you're doing a lot of things. You have a lot of pans on the fire or whatever it is that they say. Are you still a solopreneur? Do you have a team? And if you do have a team, how are you trying to approach that in a way that walks your talk as far as ethics and doing business differently?
Bianca Jordan:
So I have a team. It's smaller than my former team, but I do have a team. And I am doing a lot. Sometimes I'm doing a little bit too much. But a lot of the work that I do is kind of related. And like right now, like this week, I'm trying to finish up, just tie up some loose ends with the law firm so that I can spend the next two weeks just focusing on Rebel Immigration stuff. I have days of the week where it's all law firm stuff and then days of the week where it's only Rebel Immigration stuff. So I do have that divide. I also try to add structure in my day. So I go to the gym at six o'clock in the morning, I start my days around nine o'clock. I kind of ease in. So it's really just a matter of trying to keep everything in order so that I don't get overwhelmed.
Becky Mollenkamp:
How do you approach leadership of your team? Because I know you have a lot of issues with the legal industry, with gatekeeping, and with traditions, and norms, and all of that. And I'm wondering how do you try to combat that in the ways that you're leading others?
Bianca Jordan:
So for me, when I first started leading my team, I was first very honest and transparent with them and let them know that like, hey, this is my first time being anybody's boss. So we're in this together. If there's anything that I'm doing that you're like, stop it, please let me know. I constantly asked them for feedback so that I could get better. When I first started leading a team, I had worked, back when I worked in corporate, like many, many moons ago, I had a super horrible boss. No business boundaries would text you at like three o'clock in the morning, all types of bad things. And so for the longest time, I would kind of say, you know, what would my boss do? Like instead of like, what would Jesus do? It was like, what would this boss do? And whatever this boss would do, I would do the opposite, just to make sure that I was a better boss than this person was. But for me, it was really just letting them know, I'm learning, this is the first time I'm anybody's boss. So, you know, I just constantly ask for feedback just so that I can make sure that I am, you know, growing. At the time I was offering things like not unlimited vacation time, but I would kind of offer flexible PTO and things like that. I would allow everybody to work from home, obviously. I'm a virtual law firm, nobody's coming to an office or anything because I'm virtual. So I was just very flexible and just treating them like a human being. And other lawyers who are older than me and like the other generation would be like, this is why millennials don't show up for work. And this is why, you know, all these things. And I'm like, this is why they don't wanna work for you because your way of work is so antiquated. So for me as a boss, I was very lenient and very much like as long as the work is done, I don't care where you do it from, as long as you're obviously, I don't want you on the beach using public wifi working on our cases obviously. But as long as you get the work done by when it needs to get done by, I don't care when you're doing it, I don't care where you're doing it. I am very flexible with people. I don't need to know why you want this vacation day or this sick day. I just wanted to treat people like human beings.
Becky Mollenkamp:
We're going to end with the same things I always do, which is can you share a resource, usually a book, but it could be a podcast or anything that's been really beneficial for you in your own journey?
Bianca Jordan:
So every year I read “The Alchemist” by Paulo Coelho. I've read it, like I have the book, I've read it on Audible. I had my husband read it earlier this year. Every time I read it, I get something new. So I love that book. I also love the book “Shoe Dog.” I feel like every single entrepreneur should read “Shoe Dog” by Phil Knight. He’s amazing and very, very inspirational. Like talk about audacity, like this dude had like no connects really just kind of started it and you know he just was like I'm gonna do this and he did. So I think that those are my two resources.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Well, I've read “The Alchemist” many times also and love it. I've never even heard of “Shoe Dog,” so I'm very excited to check that one out, thank you. And finally, is there an organization that's doing good work in the world that you'd like to put the spotlight on?
Bianca Jordan:
I used to be a Girl Scout. And I love that they're really big on encouraging women to be entrepreneurs in any facet of the world. So since I'm a fellow entrepreneur, I say Girl Scouts.
Becky Mollenkamp:
I love that because they've been leading the charge and showing the Boy Scouts the way when it comes to being more inclusive and accepting of differences. And so, and I was a Girl Scout as well. And now all I want is some Samoas. Thank you very much. But I will make a donation to the Girl Scouts to say thank you for your time and encourage listeners to do the same. And we are going to take a quick break and go record three tips for people who are starting a business from nothing. And if you want to get that content, make sure you subscribe to Feminist Founders newsletter, the information's in the show notes, and you can also get all the information on how to learn more about what Bianca's doing in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for your time, Bianca.
Bianca Jordan:
Thank you, thanks so much for having me.
Thank you for listening to this episode of Feminist Founders podcast. If you like what you heard and want to learn more, or want to support the work I’m doing with this show, please visit FeministFoundersPodcast.com. There you can find out about becoming a paid subscriber, for as little as the price of one cup of coffee a month, which will directly support my work. You can also find the show notes, and find the Bookshop.org website where you can order any of the books mentioned in this or any episode, which will also support the work I’m doing. The link to all of that is in the show notes. Thanks again, and I can’t wait for our next episode.