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A podcast that explores how AI is transforming careers, businesses, and industries. Hosts Greg Boone and Erica Rooney deliver real-world use cases and actionable AI strategies to help professionals stay ahead of the curve.
Learn more about your hosts:
Erica Rooney, author of The AI Gap: Women, AI, and the Next Great Leap Forward
Greg Boone, author of AI at the Speed of Trust (available for pre-order)
Greg Boone: There's this wave that
hit in November of 2022, right?
The tsunami hit.
I said, you can I get the people
that run for the hills, right?
I get the weirdos like us, that
wanna figure out how to ride away.
I said, but what I don't understand
is all the people that are standing
on the shore just looking up,
waiting to get crushed, right?
Because that is gonna be a,
you know, a scary situation.
And what I said to my chairman,
he said, why'd you name it this?
He said, man.
I'm trying to make sure people
understand what's coming because I
don't want this on my conscience.
AI isn't the future, it's now,
and whether you're in hr, sales,
operations, or leadership, the
choices you make today will determine
whether you thrive or get left behind
today on ai, voice of Victim,
we're joined by Marc Sirkin,
former CEO of Third Door Media.
Which was acquired by SEMrush last year.
And congrats to the SEMrush team on
their recent, uh, acquisition by Adobe,
uh, and Chris Long SEO Mastermind.
I couldn't come up with
something better than
expert, uh, co-founder of Nectiv.
Um, welcome guys,
Greg Boone: and I would love for you to
just give the, the world a, you know,
a better picture of kind of who you
are, how you like to describe yourself.
Let's start with Chris.
Chris Long: Yeah, so I'm Chris
Long, co-founder of Nectiv.
Been in seo, been
Chris Long: in SEO for 10 plus
years, working on really everything
from mid-Marcet businesses all
the way up to enterprise brands.
Got to work on some pretty exciting
brands like Adobe FreshWorks,
um, Amazon throughout my career.
Um, and now spend a lot of my time
doing research around figuring out like,
Hey, what's happening with AI search?
How can we best as SEOs?
How can we all best position
ourselves to be set up for it?
And what do brands need to do to succeed?
As LLMs become more popular as Google
rolls out more LLM based features
directly under the search results.
Greg Boone: Awesome.
Thank you for that, Chris.
Uh, and Mr. Kin, what would
you like to say about yourself?
Marc Sirkin: Nothing.
Nothing good.
My, nothing, my th nothing my third
visit to, uh, ai voice or victim.
I'm, I'm, I don't know, victim or voice.
Both, I think at the same time, 20
plus whatever years, digital Marceting.
Uh, I remember before the internet,
I was in a workforce, so this is the.
The transformation of all transformations.
We thought the commercial
internet was the big one.
This might be the bigger one.
Um, and I'm trying to, how, trying
to figure out how to ride the
wave just like everybody else.
It is an exciting, scary, um,
invigorating time to be in business,
uh, and um, figuring out all this
AI stuff's important, but the
fundamentals are still important.
I think we're gonna get to
some of that today as well.
Greg Boone: I appreciate that.
Yeah, it's, it's interesting, you know,
I was in the, uh, Adobe ecosystem,
Chris, uh, for a long time on the, uh,
experience cloud side, right in delivering
a lot of work for, for top brands.
And now I've come back at Walk
West and I kind of have a broader
range of, of clients of all sizes.
So I wanna get into to
customer size at some point.
But, you know, as far as the topic here.
What I really wanna talk about is just how
fast moving everything is in the AI space.
Um, you know, why traditional, you
know, SEO has radically changed.
You guys are the experts on that.
And I'm trying to understand, I'm the
novice when it comes to that piece.
I'm the kind of all things Marceting
and digital transformation, right?
But I'm also very concerned about what
is happening in the Marcet for, uh.
Marceting leaders, revenue leaders.
Right?
The challenges that they're facing.
Um, so I wanna get into what I would like
to call the, uh, the lead flow crisis.
I know Marc Erkin is, has Herbie talk
about this talk is a, uh, a nice way.
He's Herbie rant about this so many times.
Sometimes I, I, I text him on the
weekend and, you know, and say
that he's my, uh, therapist when
it comes to some of this stuff.
And, uh, this is a true statement.
And, uh, but anyway, when I just to.
You know, kind of clarify my
position on the lead flow crisis.
I talk a lot about the changes in
SEO, um, zero click searches and
how that's wrapped up significantly.
The rollout of AI overviews, ultimately
going to, uh, AI mode within Google.
Um, the challenges around email, the cha
challenges around CAT going through the
roof and paid media costs going up, right?
And so.
I call the podcast AI voice of victim
for this reason is that I'm trying
to make sure that we give a voice to
people that need to figure out how to
break through, but also recognize there
are some folks that are gonna feel
like victims, especially coming into
the end of 2025 and going into 2026.
So, you know, I want to put this
out there to, to both of you, right.
And I'll start here with, with Mr. Serkin.
But how do you see the leaf flow crisis,
and do you see it different than I do?
Like, it's fine.
Like I wanna have an open,
honest debate about this.
Marc Sirkin: Yeah, I, I love the term,
uh, I mean, I don't love the term
'cause I wish we weren't in crisis,
but, you know, never waste, you
know, what's the, what's the saying?
Uh, never put a, never,
never let a good crisis go.
Waste.
Never waste a good crisis.
Never waste a good crisis.
I, and I think that's the opportunity and
the challenge that, that we're faced with.
Um, I have a post coming
out hopefully later today.
Um, you were speaking of texting.
We were texting this morning about the,
the Top Line podcast talking about, you
know, the turnover in the CRO space.
And really that conversation veered
into exactly what we're talking about
here, the lead flow crisis, which is
to say you've got a, a bunch of factors
that are crashing into one another.
Um, some of them are business related,
some of them are tech AI related.
Some of them are just financial
Marcet related in terms of,
you know, buyers buying stuff.
Um, but, but, but this moment in time.
If you don't have perfect Marcet fit,
for example, product Marcet fit, and
you're wondering why email doesn't
work anymore or it doesn't work as well
as it does, or you are, are saying,
Hey, our traffic is down 'cause you
know, we can talk about traffic later.
And yeah, there's a lot of brands like
HubSpot that have seen radical drops in
traffic, but there's also lots of brands
that are like skyrocketing traffic, right?
And, and so like product
Marcet fit, uh, I think.
Becomes a, a, a term that
we need to refocus on.
Because if you don't have something
that's sellable, there's no dressing
up that you can do to sell it.
There's no fancy AI tricks, there's
no wizards, there's no magic.
Um, and so I think that, I think
that that's the moment we're in
right now where it's a reckoning.
It's like we've, we've built a
bunch of stuff that, you know,
marginally has fit in the
Marcetplace, but we're seeing
Marc Sirkin: a huge separation of
who's being successful and who's not.
And I think that's, that's
part of the reckoning that
we're, that we're faced with.
Chris Long: Yeah, I agree with
the product, product Marceting fit, right?
And
Chris Long: then also kind of like
dovetailing that is like, one is just
like, I think to some level it's just
like with everything changing, it's like
people need to reassess like where their
customers are actually spending time.
And that's super basic.
But I believe that to be true, especially
with a more diversified ecosystem.
Like it's easy to say, Hey, I
want to go out and optimize for.
Chat, GPT and ai, but it's like, are
your customers using those platforms?
Right?
Because like a small per, like,
despite the hype, but still
a pretty small percentage of
people are actually using them.
If you're in the Marceting space, yes.
You a hundred percent wanna be if you're
in the manufacturing space or Right.
You build oil field trucks,
whatever it is, maybe not.
Um, so I think, I think it's,
you have to ask yourself like,
where are your customers?
I, I think.
One of the other big things, I think we're
gonna get into this later, but it is,
it's the concept of attribution, right?
Um, and I think that's also probably a big
part of the leap vote crisis, is people
are looking at their channels and being
like, Hey, like traffic is down, right?
Traffic is down, conversions
are down from X channel.
Whether it's search, whether it's
social, but like the reality is.
Especially when it comes to digital.
We live in a platform
based ecosystem, right?
So like your, your sources of where
you are optimizing your time basically
blows down to maybe five to 10 different
ecosystems, whether that's Google's
ecosystem, whether that's now chat
GPTs, whether that's email, social,
LinkedIn, Twitter, whatever it is.
In those ecosystems, like they
are inherently not incentivized
to give people data, right?
It's like, it's like, in fact,
we're just seeing the opposite.
More people are taking data away.
This isn't new.
Google's been doing this since like
2013 when I first started in this space.
When it's like they took away like
all the keyword data and Google
Analytics, it's only going, it's
only getting pushed further.
So I think.
The more people are reliant on like,
Hey, I'm tr like I'm reliant on
traffic data, direct conversion data,
attribution data to prove success.
That's gonna be a more uphill battle.
People are still searching for the
products and services they want,
but the attribution isn't there.
And you know, I just predict it.
So it's only gonna get worse over time.
Not better.
So that could also, that also
creates this lead flow crisis, right?
Where it's like, hey.
We're seeing the declining conversions,
but it's, it's a fundamental nature
of like how these platforms are
incentivized to even report on how
many leads, how much traffic, whatever
is coming from their platforms.
Greg Boone: Yeah, that's, uh,
you guys touch on probably two of
the, the top topics that I hear.
I was on American Marc, I mean, uh, the
A MA American Marceting Association,
uh, on a webinar a couple weeks ago.
And I was referencing something
that I heard James Quincy,
the Cee o of Coca-Cola, say
at Adobe Summit back in March.
I don't know if you guys attended, but he
basically said, stop, stop selling what
you made and start making what sells.
Right now, he was talking within
the context of how he had dropped.
Uh, they had, I didn't even know
if Coca-Cola had 400 products, but
they dropped down to 200 products,
you know, during the pandemic.
Um, but that was the point that
he was trying to get across.
So, to Marc your point about
product Marcet fit, yeah,
there's a lot of companies out
there that have something that.
May have been glorious two years ago.
Right.
But they're not AI first or AI native
and it's very challenging, right.
When the consumers don't want that thing.
And to, to Chris's point,
you know, absolutely.
The channels, you know, matter so much.
I use the same hyperbole all the time.
I tell folks I was like, in the
age of ai, you need four to six new
roles across eight to 10 new tools
to deliver 10 to 100 x more content.
Twice as fast across five new channels.
Like, I don't know how many organizations
are built for that right now.
And to Chris's point, which
one of those channels mattered.
So I'm gonna point this
to, to you, Chris, right?
You, you've talked about Google.
Google has dominated and continues
to dominate this space, right?
But it, you know, what are the challenges
and the changes that you've seen in
the last year, or even in the last
six months, whatever timeframe you
wanna put on this, right, that are
really going to impact organizations.
Chris Long: Yeah, I mean,
especially, I mean, Google, I mean,
so the, the timeline is right.
Chat, GBT comes out, um,
December of 2021, I believe.
I could be wrong, but, but they, they
come out, they, they come out and Google
basically immediately issues a code red.
And that's when all of a sudden,
like we all start seeing changes
like in the search result within
the next six months, right?
Like the release of tests and beta,
what's called search generated.
Shows generative experience
as Slater called AI overviews.
That's that basically a LLM
answer on the top, you know,
depending how familiar you are.
That's probably one of the
biggest changes you've seen.
Right.
And then also conjunction with that,
they also release AI mode and that
is basically their answer to chat
GBT Google's challenge, right, is
they have to keep up with, they
have to keep up with chat, GBT, and.
The Gemini three model that they just
released actually does that right?
Where like, their AI is getting better.
Before it was like, you know,
not great with a lot of like,
things like re like basically some
of its reasoning capabilities.
It's getting better.
An actual report by the financial times.
Like shows that, like even like chat
GBTs, Marcet shares, potent apps in so
are declining, geminis are increasing.
Right?
Um, I think what, what people
aren't aware of as much, um.
Not so much maybe in the direct SEO
community, but definitely maybe in the
broader Marceting industry is AI mode.
Right.
And that is, that is
Google's own LLM right?
Is their direct answer to chat GBT.
You can go into it in a separate tab.
Um, and basically it is an LLM and
not the 10 traditional search results.
And they are aggressively pushing
this, like I am convinced they're
going to roll it out, maybe not a
hundred percent, but very aggressively.
All their ag camp, all their ag campaigns
are literally around AI mode right now.
If you go on tv, um, it's in, it's like.
They're, they push it in AI overviews.
It's like literally like on the home
search box, you can click using AI mode.
Marceters need to like understand
like how that works and like if people
are asking questions like, I'm a
software, I want a certain product.
How are you optimized
against that experience?
Because like that is the
direction Google's going.
In my opinion, Google's gonna look
more like a chat GBT based full
LLM experience in the next year
than the traditional 10 blue links.
Marc Sirkin: So there's
a couple of things.
One, I wanna point out first,
the ironic nature of the code
red, uh, given what popped today.
Uh, so today's what, December
2nd, just in case this doesn't
come out for a little bit.
Um, Sam Altman invoked code red
if you, if you, if you look.
Um, and I just found it unbelievably
ironic this morning on the,
on the treadmill I was reading
this thing almost fell off.
I was like, okay, this is, this is
literally like, it's falling in on itself.
Uh, which is like really kind
of disorienting in, in a way.
Um, it's almost like
voice or victim, right?
Like it actually plays into the,
the title of the podcast here.
Like, who's the victim and who's the
voice in this case, because Chacha B
came storming on the scene, uh, disrupted
the heck out of, of Google, caused us
to question our sanity with, of SEO O is
dead or not, once again, which we'll get.
And now it's flipped again.
Um, which is just, just unbelievable.
And in terms, Chris, what you said
about, uh, AI mode, the reason why
ai, why, why, um, AI mode is gonna
roll out to everybody is very simple.
It's a better experience.
Like th this has been true since
the moment that chat TV came out.
I remember I had a magic moment.
The first time I used Chad.
I was like, oh my God, this is.
Unbelievable.
Like there's something magical
happening in the, in the interaction.
When you add multimodal and you add
voice, it's just a better experience.
And now we can argue over hallucinations
and the quality of the content.
But the reality is that like humans,
like water kind of run downhill, right?
We look for things that
have less friction.
And so of course they're
gonna roll this out.
It's a better experience.
Google's all about good
experiences, right?
How they monetize it, and the rest
of the nonsense is all about, you
know, the rest of the conversation.
But I just find the nature of Sam Altman
invoking code red today to be, uh, funny
and ironic and kind of concerning in, in
a couple of different ways, given we know
that they've already launched e-commerce.
You like to talk about Spotify and,
and the move that the Cee o made
Greg, and I think it was yesterday,
I read, um, ads are coming and
they're coming in like January.
And so it's like you start to,
you start to think about what
ads in an LM look like, right?
I was thinking about this morning,
like if I'm creating an image in an
LLM and I'm a brand, can I pay to show
up in product placement in that image?
Right.
We're not, we're talking about
like an extension of advertising
in an LLM driven world.
I mean, I, I think we're just
entering really weird territory here.
I think it's really exciting.
On one hand, on the other hand,
it's like very disorienting and it
feeds into the lead flow crisis.
'cause what the heck do
you do with this stuff?
How do you, how do you, how
do you navigate to your point
about, you know, 10 new pieces of
content, that whole rap, right.
It becomes very, very concerning.
Greg Boone: Yeah.
I mean, I think, I mean, you guys
are touching on the thing that
I talk quite a bit about, right?
I think the, uh.
You know, Chris, I, I appreciate you.
You commented, um, on a post a few
weeks back and you says, as Greg Boone
says, the stair step in the AI mode,
because I tried to explain this to
people like, you know, Chatt PT turned,
uh, three years old last month, right?
So it came out in November of 2022,
and uh, I registered a domain, what is
a EO, last November, November of 24.
And then I realized, I was like, oh, no.
This is very challenging, right?
It's like, you know, you gotta show up
in so many different places and how they
view authority and how they're doing.
All these are radically different.
And so what I did is I pivoted
and you know, I get joked a lot
of times in my circle because I
have uh, 33 gen AI certifications.
But what I was trying to understand
was how do these machines.
Think and talk and work, right?
So that can better figure out how to
get out of the lead flow crisis, right?
And so everything that you guys
said, I, I think is spot on.
You know, Chris, you, you put a poll out.
I want to talk about that, but I'll
let you tee it up like what was
the poll and what were the results?
'cause I, I have thoughts.
Chris Long: Yeah, so I
have to go back and check.
So the poll wa the poll was that I,
I basically asked people, when do you
think Google's rolling out AI mode?
I said, in the next month, in the next
two to three months, or the next six plus
months, most people, most people said six.
Most people said six plus months.
And I got a lot of comments
being like, they're, I'm gonna
fully roll it out at all.
They might do something hybrid.
That probably is an option.
I am, I guess I'm just more
convinced that they are aggressive.
Like basically to Marc's point,
it's a better experience.
It's more personalized.
They need to compete for Marcet
share with chat GBT it almost isn't
even an option for them to like,
not roll it out, in my opinion.
And Marc, to your point, it's like, I
think Google's kind of in this weird
part where it's like they, they have
to figure out how to monetize it,
but they have to basically having to
roll it out and then figure out the
monetization part later, which is
something I don't think they wanna do.
I think they would've rather out how
to monetize first, then roll it out.
Um, but yes, it, it's due to the fact
it's a better experience due to the
fact it's more personalized, like.
P and i, AI mode is coming.
Um, and it is, it's like people will
need to figure out how they need to
optimize against that architecture
because it is very different
than the Google search results.
Um, and the studies show, like
Kevin in Digg, who's one of my
friends, he's doing a lot of studies.
He's basically like running user tests
and, and showing like people when
they're using AI mode are not cliquey.
Like there are very few
clicks coming out of AI mode.
Um, except with the exception of.
Commerce based queries where like
Google can like literally not fulfill
the answer in the AI mode experience.
Greg Boone: When I was looking
at your poll, Chris and I saw
some of the comments, right?
And there was this reference, one of
the comments was referencing something
that, um, someone from Google said,
uh, they said it in June, right?
And it's like, oh,
they're not gonna do it.
Did you see what they said?
I was like, yeah, that was in June, right?
I say, I said that was
six months ago, right?
And so if the, if the line is six months.
If the line is six months of
when this is going to roll out.
That started already.
To you guys' point, they
have no choice, right?
It's not a matter of whether
or not they wanted to roll
this out in a different way.
I always tell folks, I'm like, there's
a blockbuster moment right now, and they
had to kind of meet the times, right?
When the co-founder comes out of
retirement at the beginning of, of,
of this year and says, yeah, I'm not
gonna lose Marcet share, like that
should have been a signal, right?
When the Shopify Cee o came
out in April said everybody's
gonna, you know, learn ai.
That was a signal, like whether we
choose to wanna accept these signals,
that that is the, the challenge.
And I think that for me, you know.
What I'm seeing it a lot is just
like, I feel like there's this, um,
and I hate to to to rant about this,
but I'm just trying to set this up
as to kind of how I think about this.
I'm seeing this kind of, uh, you
know, I, I view, I view Chris
Long as the Netflix 2.0, right.
The, the folks that are already about
the streaming, but then I'm seeing these
kind of Marceters, and not specifically
just SEO folks, but Marceters in general.
It's this blockbuster meets red box.
Right debating over DVD, should
they be in kiosk or should it be
in the store And Netflix is already
like, man, we're already off that.
We streaming.
Right?
Then I'm over here like, Hey man, I
don't know how to stream, but maybe
I can be Roku and set people up.
Right?
Wherever they are.
And it's just this weird paradigm.
The other thing is I don't think people
understand how fast these LLMs, how fast
these foundational companies will change.
I keep seeing people that are calling
themselves quote experts, and they keep
saying the same thing is, oh, I didn't
think it was gonna change so quickly.
Because you don't understand what's going
on and how these things actually work.
Like it is, it's gonna move so fast
because of the business expectations.
But anyway, I wanna give us some space
for you, Marc, to kind of follow up and if
Chris, if you have anything else on that.
Marc Sirkin: Yeah, I mean, I, you know,
the poll, I saw the poll too in the
comments and it's, and it is interesting
and I mean, you know, we can, we can look
at this through lens of a couple different
lenses, community lenses for one.
I mean, we know that SEOs,
uh, generally speaking, um.
You know, our str not they not, it's
not, they're, it's not that they're
struggling, it's that they're fighting
lang like there's semantics at work.
Right.
I think, you know, I think
we all agree on the call.
I think we all agree SE o's not
dead, but the, the implications
of SEO are changing very quickly.
You know, at search engine land,
we had real specific conversations.
Danny Goodwin, who's the, the, the
editor in chief over there and our team.
Barry Schwartz and the rest of
'em, like, you know, what do
we think what's happening here?
Like, 'cause we could play the game where
we go, oh, SEO's dead and get paid views.
Right?
Cheap paid views are always good,
especially these days, but the
reality is that no SEO's not dead.
SEO's, the foundation of everything
underpinning this, the, the, there
are changes, there's things you
have to think about, but that
conversation is one that I find to
be kind of boring at, at this point.
Right.
Because it's, it's, it's, it's
arguing over semantics and
not acknowledging the reality.
Uh, Greg, which you talk about,
which is the lead flow crisis, right?
Like you can argue over words.
But the reality is the businesses are
struggling 'cause they don't understand
how to connect the dots, the value
proposition with what their buyers want.
And that's, that's never changed.
The fun, the fundamentals of
like connecting with an audience.
And Chris, you had said something
earlier that sparked a thought
in my head, which is like.
You know, we, we can argue over
tactics, over attribution models.
First click, last click, you
know, linear decay, whatever.
We can do all the things, we can get into.
MMM.
What does, like, it
doesn't, none of it matters.
The reality is, if you have a good
product that has real customers and you
understand what they want and you know
how to talk to 'em, you have a business.
Now, your business might not
be as big as it once was.
'cause you're not getting cheap, you know,
cheap leads, cheap pipeline, whatever.
But I think that, that it's,
it's, it, it just continues to
me to be this moment in time.
I think the, the blockbuster Netflix
thing is a, is a decent proxy and, you
know, all models are useful and just
none of 'em are accurate kind of thing.
So I think we're all struggling for
like, what's actually gonna happen next.
I had a conversation with somebody a
couple, a couple weeks ago now where.
It was more a philosophical conversation,
but basically was saying like,
no one knows what's gonna happen.
It doesn't matter how smart you are, it
doesn't matter what you've seen before.
What's gonna happen next
is gonna be surprising.
So brace and so embracing for that,
it's a, it's a, it's a mental, um,
a mental exercise of being ready and
flexible to think about what's gonna
happen next and how are we gonna adjust.
If you're gonna insist on leaning
on what used to work, I just think
you're in for a rude awakening, right?
Like, and that's why we see
people taking money out of SEO
and putting it into things like.
Alternate media community build podcasts
like this, those kinds of things.
That isn't to say that SEO's dead.
No one's saying that.
Well, some people are saying
that, but you know what I mean?
Like, it's, it's, it's, it's a
reshifting of the priorities of how
you have a conversation with customers.
LMS are becoming one of the,
you know, quickly again, we're
seeing what doubling of usage.
You know, we're in an
exponential growth curve.
So yes, it's a small.
Portion of overall search today.
But to your point, um, Chris, when
Google, when Google fully rolls AI
mode out, which is coming, and we can
debate when, but it will, one day we'll
wake up and go, oh, it's done right.
It could be tomorrow, it
could be six months from now.
It, it's a complete game changer because
all of that 90 whatever percent of
searching now is going through AI mode.
Call it search, call it
SEO, I don't really care.
But the, the entire model is
now flipped over like that.
And if you're not ready for it,
you, you're, you're, you're dead.
You're basically dead.
Chris Long: And there's a difference I
think between arguing like ar, I think
there's a difference between arguing like
whether like people are using like Google
as a platform versus chat GPT versus
like whether LLMs are coming or not.
And sometimes, and I think that's an
important distinction because yes,
Google still has massive Marcet share,
but like, like you said, Marc overnight,
they can flip the switch and make.
Everything in an LLM
based experience, right?
And that, and then that basically
that causes an entire shift
on like how everything works.
And I think there's a lot of fear,
especially amongst the SEO community about
like, you know, is this replacing my job?
Like how, like whatever, like
is, you know, am I still gonna
have a role in a few years?
But like, I think SEOs, I do believe
are like in their organizations, are
one of the best positioned internally
to understand like how this all works.
If the Cee O or CMO is asking like, Hey.
How do I optimize against an AI search
experience like SEOs know directly at
the interplay between like content and
technical with this is this both very
much is SEOs are probably the most
likely in an organization to understand
like embedding and inquiry fan outs
and all these like kind of different
like tactical approaches, right?
Um, so I think SEOs are
very well positioned.
I think SEOs right now are kind of at this
pivotal po moment to actually internally
to be vying for like AI budget, right?
Because.
I think they are very, very strongly
positioned in order to get patent.
Marc Sirkin: This is
not simple stuff, right?
Like, like the moment you start looking
into what a query fan, fan out is, just
as an example, and I'm, you know, I'm
nowhere near where Chris's level is at.
It becomes very disorienting
and very confusing, right?
It's no longer like, I need a webpage.
Does this like.
Just at a simple level, if you were to
audit, let's say a hundred small business,
mid-size business websites, how many Chris
do you think would actually have effective
schema, for example, on those pages
Chris Long: to, yeah, very.
Depending on the infrastructure, right?
Maybe.
Maybe under 50%.
Marc Sirkin: Right?
And so, and I have data, I
saw data the day about email
authentication, for example, right?
Not enough businesses are even,
you know, DM authenticated.
Just like, and it's not that it's
hard, but it's like you don't
even know the question to ask.
And so what I like to describe as this
sort of scaffolding, right, the fancy
website, the email campaigns, the
newsletters, that's all front end stuff.
It's the scaffolding.
That sits behind it.
That's where the tech SEO
people and the, and the nerds
in our lives come to save us.
'cause it's like, look, I see
what you wanna do, but this
is how you have to do it.
Otherwise you will be ignored.
You will be forgotten.
Right?
And, and each platform
is slightly different.
The way you succeed on YouTube is
different than how you succeed on Substack
is different, how you succeed on Reddit.
So again, back to your point,
Greg, about, you know, 10 different
this, five different that, right?
Like, like you have to make hard
decisions about where to invest
your time in reaching your customers
and where and where they are.
Greg Boone: Yeah.
I mean, I think that's the,
that's the point that I, I try to
get to with folks all the time.
It's like.
I was telling Chris when we first met
earlier this year, I said, Chris, you're
like probably the top 5% of of SEO
folks, because you understand technology.
I'm like, I have a degree
in computer science.
I know how to write code.
Right?
So that's my saving grace.
I've invested my old time and energy
in understanding how LLMs work.
I don't see a world in which the majority
of SEO experts are gonna be able to do
those things because of two reasons.
One, the technical aptitude
necessary to do it, but then there's
the economic challenges, right?
So the other reason why I named
the podcast AI Voice of Victim, I
fundamentally believe that there's
a have and have nots, right?
Scenario, and I want to get into
that a little bit with, with you.
All right.
So can I see, A lot of times I say,
people say, well just get your brand
into this, and they brand and me working
in the Adobe ecosystem to Salesforce.
When I hear brand, what I really
hear is you're talking about the
top 2000 companies in the world.
You're not talking about the little guys.
And I don't think people
are like, that's my opinion.
So I'm, I'm gonna pose the question
when you guys say how brands show up.
I'm assuming you're talking about
bigger organizations that have bigger
budgets and, and stronger teams, but
Marc Sirkin: not necessarily, honestly.
I mean, I know what you're saying
and I know why you're saying it, and
you're right, but I, but I also think
that, again, it's a Marcet, it's
a Marcet product fit issue, right?
So if I'm, if I'm a, uh, um,
if I'm a donut shop in Durham.
Right.
And I don't have a brand and I'm a
new, like, I'm a, you know, new guy.
Like there are ways to
establish the brand locally.
That's the Marcet I play in.
That's the, like I can be a big fish
in that pond and I can run all sorts
of cool late night donut things.
There's tons of students, right?
So like, I think you have to be a
little bit mindful of like what we're
talking about, BRINO, Nike is not.
You know, the local flower shop, the
local flower shop can do the right kinds
of things by getting Google reviews
and doing, you know, local community
outreach and being involved with a local
charities, like you can build brands,
but tho but like the notion that like,
somehow you're gonna go on Google and
do like, write fancy content and become,
those days are just, they're just done.
I don't know if they ever existed to
be honest, but like it's, it's much,
much harder from a channel standpoint.
So I think.
You know, connecting your
brand, whatever your brand is,
known or unknown to the
Marcet you serve, becomes
Marc Sirkin: even more important.
And, you know, scratching the fluff
out and really focusing on like, these
are the three or four channels that
are gonna actually move the needle to
help me create my quote unquote brand.
It it, and obviously if you're playing
at the Nike level, it's a, that's
a different game, but not very many
of us get to play at that level.
Chris Long: I could not,
could not agree more.
Like I, I think overall I, I believe that
yes, like largely like the LLM impact
will probably favor, will probably favor
more enterprises just because they have
a stronger authority, more content.
They, they've, they already have
this like enormous ecosystem of owned
and earned content that basically
like are already influenced.
So like that, that alone is giving
them an infrastructure that's going
to be hard for other people to
surpass.
But like to Marc's point, like I think
Chris Long: it just.
Changes the way you position
and the way you strategize
in terms of digital Marcets.
Like, a good example
Chris Long: is, like I was talking
with someone, I was talking
with someone the other day.
They, they are a, um, they're manufacturer
in like the bamboo luxury space, right?
Um, and like part part of their SEO
and AI search strategy I was talking
to them about was like, you're
trying to have all these different
categories in your commerce site for.
Broader categories, right?
They were kind of trying to
move away from like their, their
longstanding position of bamboo.
And I was just like, just to let
you know, you're playing a game,
it's gonna be much harder for you.
Like you already have affiliate
sites, YouTube reviews, like Google,
like authority based on like the
technology and how this all works.
We know they, we know LMS and
Google score based on this.
So you're trying to play
in a different game.
You're gonna have a much bigger uphill
battle trying to expand these product
lines when really what you might wanna
do is double down on like what you're
already good in, what the LMS are already.
Showing you for, maybe we put
a longer term strategy toward
development in those other areas.
But like I think the big thing for
businesses, especially smaller businesses,
like find what you're a topical expert in.
If you sell down pillows, right?
Like Right.
Like focus on that area.
Right?
Because Google will reward that.
LMS will probably be more
likely to reward that, right?
But if you're trying
to expand outside of Marcet,
like what you were saying, your
product Marcet fit, it's gonna be
Chris Long: a much bigger challenge
because then you're gonna go,
you're gonna compete where someone
else either has dedicated like.
Like authority in that space, or
you're up against a bigger brand.
And
Marc Sirkin: Yeah, I, I mean, let me
just build on that even one more step.
I mean, they say riches
are in niches, right?
And I think that, that the
algorithms, uh, are punishing.
If you stray, it's just punishing, right?
Because like, I'm, I'm, I'm trying
to figure out how to build my YouTube
channel, and it's going badly to be
honest, because I talk about a wide
range of things in Marceting.
It turns out
Marc Sirkin: Google doesn't,
uh, YouTube doesn't like that.
The YouTube algorithm is trying,
its best to connect you with a
specific audience for your content.
And when you confuse it by talking
about, let's say AI Marceting
one day and leadership,
Marc Sirkin: the next day it
goes, I don't, I don't know
who to connect you with.
Right?
So the way that the algorithm,
the algorithms are actually.
For better or worse, by the way, um,
sitting on top of your brand decisions,
and that's what I mean by the scaffolding.
Like you, if you don't understand how this
all works, if you don't understand how
the LinkedIn algorithm works, and I'm not
talking about like at a computer science
level, just generally speaking, right?
So in this case, the example I have here
is with YouTube is like, if you don't
understand that YouTube is gonna punish
you for not being specific about what you
talk about every single time you post.
You will make a mistake and you will
hurt your brand and you will lose
visibility and you will lose business.
Right?
Like I think that that's, that connective
tissue right there is, it builds
on everything we just said around
focusing your product
Marcet fit and then just
Marc Sirkin: really going deep in that
versus like being all over the place,
which I think is just, it was never a
good strategy, but it's punishing now.
Greg Boone: Yeah, what, what
you guys are, are hitting on.
When I was back in May, I was speaking
at, uh, the a MA in uh, Chicago event,
and, uh, the Cee o Benny Johnson
asked me, he said, what is the one
word you want to tell
Marceters out there, Greg?
Greg Boone: And I said, well,
first you asked me a
Marceter to say one word.
Greg Boone: I was like,
that challenge accepted.
Okay.
I said, but learn.
I said, so many folks are, they
have these misconceptions of how
these things actually work, right?
Even the, like, the basics
of this is probabilistic.
It's not deterministic, right?
You can ask the l lm the exact same
question a. After you've asked it the
first time and get a different response.
Right.
That is radically different
of understanding or the
idea of, of a filter bubble.
I tell people all the time, I talk
to Chad gt, uh, Chad, GPT about
Nikes and Air Jordans all the time.
I said, if it shows me some
shit from Under Armour,
Adidas, we're gonna break up.
Right?
Like, like you have to understand
what what's happening, right?
I say to folks all the time,
in the age of AI growth has to
be both earned and engineered.
Right.
And to your point, and so when I
established the, uh, you know, what
Walk West was gonna do in 2025, I said,
we're gonna make sure you're seen,
heard and cited, C-I-T-E-D by humans
and machines alike for maximum results.
I was trying to get across to folks
what actually has to happen, right?
But then I realized, I'm like, all right.
No one wants to hear this, so.
Right.
And that's the part now I switched to,
like, I, now I start everything, uh,
Chris with this Upton Sinclair quote,
which is, it's difficult to get a man
to understand something when his salary
depends upon his not understanding it.
Right.
So getting people to, and
that's from 1934, right?
The challenge right now is if you
can't break your mental mindset,
it is gonna be damn near impossible
for you to understand, right?
To tell someone like, Hey, I know that
you try to, uh, to expand out, you know,
nationwide with your business, but if
you get tighter and focus on Southeast or
North Carolina, you're probably gonna be
a lot better off than what you're doing.
That's hard just conceptually for folks.
Right?
And so, you know, one of the things that.
I want to kind of bring this back to
is, you know, there's this like, um, I
keep seeing Chris people saying that,
hey, Google took 10 years or whatever
to figure out their, their search
algorithm and, and their model and
this and that, and I, I think they got
less than 10 months when it comes to ai
and the clock started six months ago.
Right?
Like, what do you, like
if you had to place a bet.
In your own, your, you know,
your heart of hearts, right?
When is the exact date did you
think the AI mode rolls out?
And then what would someone do with that?
Like, come on, let's
just get you on a record.
Gimme a, gimme a date,
I'll give you my date.
Chris Long: Yeah.
May, 2026 would be my hard date.
Right.
The next Google io Is that what?
Google io.
Okay.
That would be Google io.
So that would be, that would be
my, that would be my best guess.
Right.
And the reason I think, and Greg,
we talked about this and I, I, I am
a hundred percent in agreeance to
what we talked about stair stepping.
Like my Tim fo hat theory is they had
to roll out ai mo ai overviews first
because they were like, the general
public doesn't, like, might not know
how to understand how to use an LLM.
Yes.
Some people are more technically
inclined, but like right when we're
trying to run, we're trying to run
an information business, right?
Like across all different,
you know, all age, age ranges,
cultures, whatever, right?
We have to make sure this
is accessible to everybody.
So what's the answer to that?
Well, we build a mini LLM on top
of the standard search result.
So like, if you want the standard,
if you want the old experience,
just scroll down a little further.
If you want the LLM
experience, stay at the top.
But then what that does
is it trains people.
Right?
Now, all of a sudden it's like I,
my, like, my parents are like, Hey,
like I can type something longer.
Into Google, right?
I can ask it like a personal
question and it will like, you
know, it'll give me a response.
So they're showing people and getting
like a year's worth of data and a year,
a year's worth of data for themselves
and a year's worth of, you know, sta
stepping people into this LLM experience
After what, a year and a half-ish,
like, I think it'll be enough time.
The pressure, the that come that combined
with the mounting pressure of them being
afraid of people switching to chat.
GBT, I think will be enough for
them to switch over to AI mode.
So May 26th is my date.
Marc Sirkin: Hmm.
That's a good question.
I, I mean, I, that's a,
it's, it's a really good bet.
Uh, I'll, I'm gonna say sooner than that.
I'm just gonna, I, I, I just think, I
think the pressure's on, I think, uh,
you know, uh, Sam's red red alert or
whatever, like, I like the heat's turning
up and, um, you know, we're, we're in
this moment financially where everyone's
talking about is there an AI bubble?
Is there not an AI bubble?
I think the game, the game is afoot.
And I, I think, I'm just gonna say
before that I, I, I, I mean it could
be, you know, it could be January 1st.
I don't know.
I don't think so, but like, I think, I
think stair stepping is the right thing.
And I think, look, we also see data, I
think Lily Ray Pope has somebody like
that, has, we'll say occasionally,
Chris, you would know like, oh, this
percentage of AI mode is being shown
in these, you know, informational or
comm, like, it's just a stair step.
At some point you're, it's
gonna be a hundred percent.
At some point you're not even know it.
Right.
Like, I'm not sure it's a, I'm
not sure that Google's gonna do a
press release and go, it's done.
It's gonna be like, no.
We just see it all the time and frankly.
With 800 million weekly chat GBT users.
I mean, we're learning as a
society how to use LLMs already.
Uh, I think it's, I think
everything's faster than that.
But you know, I, that may's a good bet.
Greg Boone: What, what you're
saying, I think, and the reason
why I bring that back is because
again, it goes back to learning.
And if people don't understand
what's coming and how fast it's
coming, they won't be able to adjust.
Right?
'cause we can talk about all the
tactics all day, all the team
structures, all these things, right?
But.
They have to have time to have
put this stuff into, right.
And the other thing that people I
don't think really understand is
the companies that are investing all
this stuff now in getting out and
being cited and being authority are
training the next, you know, models.
They're training.
And so if you don't do it right now,
you're also getting to a point where
you're already kind of gated out.
Right.
And so my next, uh, question here for
you is one that I've been pondering on
for Alaska about 48 hours, which is.
A lot of people talk about Reddit, and
I remember seeing that and I was telling
people the same thing for the last
year about Reddit and Quora and where
chat GPT is kind of was pulling from.
But then I was like, well, perplexity
got sued by Reddit and Anthropic got
sued by Reddit earlier this year.
Right?
But what happens when you have 800
million active, uh, weekly active users?
You're building SOA two to be
a social, uh, media platform.
I gotta imagine at some point very soon,
they don't really need Reddit as much.
Is that, am I looking at it wrong?
Like, why would I need that?
Like Rock Doesn't, rock has X, right?
Like why would you need that?
Marc Sirkin: Yeah.
I, I think, I think, um, I
think the reason you need it.
Is because it's an un, the, the
stomach for more data is unending.
That, that's the only,
that's the reason, right?
And so what's interesting is,
I mean, we'll see if model, you
remember when we used to talk about
model collapse a few months ago?
Like that, that's like when, when
dead internet happens and it's just
all bots sucking each other, creating
automated content, and, and all
of a sudden the models collapse.
I'm not sure models will collapse.
I'm not, I'm not smart enough to.
Pre make a prediction on that.
But the reality is, I think the
reason why you still need Reddit,
Quora, and those sites are, are
variably good and bad, right?
Like there's good and bad stuff on there.
It's just content.
It's just, it's raw feed
stock to feed the thing.
And I think that's why a platform
like SOA is so interesting.
We can debate AI video slop or not,
but when I go on soa, I see incredibly
creative thinking coming together
with technology that's creating more
content that has insights that like I,
so I, I think the answer is you need
it because you need more feedstock.
But o other than that, I'm not, I'm
not, you know, from a, from a SEO or
like a surfacing content standpoint,
I'm not so sure like the quality
Greg Boone: is, but, but don't you
think, like, as Sam has already
said, like the thing we talk
about, the business context again.
He has to raise a trillion dollars.
Marc Sirkin: That's
right.
Greg Boone: So if he's not
getting more people to stay on his
platform to monetize it, that does
not help you get to a trillion
Marc Sirkin: dollars.
He look, I mean, the reality is he has a
better user experience than Reddit does.
Greg Boone: They just
expanded to like team model.
So you and I can all be
within the same thread, like
Marc Sirkin: That's right.
Greg Boone: You're gonna get to a point
where to you guys talk about AI mode.
I was using it quite a bit
yesterday to a point where I
forgot that I was still in Google.
I had started with a search.
Thats my point.
I was having a conversation.
That's my point.
And then I, I was like, let
me check on these sources.
And there was like 50 sources
on the right and it was
consolidating all this information.
I was never gonna go through
each and every one of those.
Marc Sirkin: It's a
better user experience.
Greg Boone: It's a better experience.
But Chris, what is your take on kind
of the like, the reason why I pose
this question is what happens if we
push everybody to say, leverage Reddit,
lever, Reddit, leverage, all these
other things, and then there was a
rented channels that they don't own,
and then either they decide to, I don't
want to be, you know, you leveraging
me or two, I don't need you anymore.
Now what happens?
Chris Long: It's a good question.
So I, I agree with Marc's point.
I agree with Marc's point for sure.
It's
Chris Long: like it's a
huge untapped data source.
My second reason for thinking that Reddit
is pretty strong in terms of both its
existence in Google, what traditional
Google searches, it stands today.
And LMS is like right now, one of the
biggest problems with an LLM from it's
an experience standpoint is like, it's
like, okay, a machine wrote this, right?
Some something, right?
Is ba it is basically predicting what
word most likely to come next, right?
It, it, it's, it's
never used this product.
It's never demoed this
free trial, whatever.
Reddit is an ultimate
data source of everyone.
Like, you know, assuming like a big
presumption but real world customer
experience that people who have so.
Integrating that is something that
an lm, that an LM cannot natively
integrate into its experience.
But if they pull from Reddit data, right?
If they're using whatever, Google,
Bing a search or, or whatever,
direct, Google's probably has a
more direct integration with Reddit.
They can, they can infuse a real
human first experience into an LM.
It's almost a shortcut for like, how do
we get the LLM to have human experience?
Well, you like have it train it or train
it or use it on top of Reddit data.
So I think for that alone, the fact that.
People still value, like content
written from, written directly from
people and not like just amalgamated
in this huge black box, right.
Of embeddings and all that.
Like I think Reddit and forums,
that's why they so are somewhat
irreplaceable in my view.
Mm-hmm.
Marc Sirkin: Greg, is the question,
is the, does the question come from.
How you're advising brands
to engage on Reddit and those
platforms to create brand.
Is that, is that some of where you're
coming from in asking that question?
Greg Boone: It's twofold, right?
I, I take from the lens of a lot of,
again, I understand the technology at a
much deeper level than, than most, but
I also understand the business context
as to why people have to change, right.
And the speed at which, that's
why I agreed with you on the,
the Google going to AI mode.
Like they don't have a choice, right?
And that's the part that people
were debating eight months
ago, eight, nine months ago.
That Google would never get away
from the blue links because it would,
it would destroy their ad model.
I said, what choice do they had?
It was Blockbuster me's, Netflix.
They were never going to pack up, right?
I said, what choice did you know the
Shopify Cee o have, but to get in
bed with chat GPT when the entire
customer journey could potentially
be owned inside of the LLM, right?
I say people miss the business context
in that lens, so that's part of it.
The other part of it is like, like I
always say, Nike gonna be all right.
They have the budget, they
have the technical expertise.
They can try these things out.
But what happens, there's twofold.
When I talk about the Reddit,
well threefold in the Reddit
comment one at some point.
I do fundamentally believe that
the large language models need
to own more of the conversation.
There's no richer data than how I'm
talking back and forth with my LLM.
I mean, that is the, and once you
start to bring in a team concept of
that, that's gonna be even richer than,
to my opinion, richer than even the,
the Reddit, you know, conversations.
Right?
The other part of it is.
You know, what about the LLMs?
Like perplexity and claw,
they're being sued by Reddit.
What do they do?
Right.
Okay.
That's a different topic right now.
The other part of though is
right, what happens though
for the smaller organizations?
Right?
I guess the fourth thing is Reddit
wants you to be authentic and people
are already trying to game the system.
How long before, like, 'cause
people keep saying, oh, just do
this and put this on Reddit, like.
You get in there, you gonna
end up getting blacklisted.
Like you get a bad brand in how you're
trying to stack in spam Reddit, it's over.
Right?
That community was going
to crush you, right?
And so that's me.
I'm like, Hey man, that's some,
that's some challenging advice.
And then how you go about doing it.
So that's kind of my, the
different lenses I'm looking at.
Chris Long: There was a fascinating,
there was a fascinating article, I'm
hoping I'm printed by Lars Lofgren.
Um, he actually found, he actually
found this one Reddit, where one of
the mod, one of the moderators was
actually like, was owned, owned a
business, and basically anytime a thread.
Came out about their
competitors, he bashed it.
He would bash it openly, but because
he was a moderator, he had the power
and that in that competitor business,
so like something like a 30%, 30 to 50%
business decline due to the activity
from Reddit because they were rank,
because they, they were bad things
were being said about them on Google.
Like they were probably trained,
the LMS probably trained on top of
them saying they were a bad product.
So like the, at least in that instance,
in the modern day context, like
Reddit has a ton of power to like.
Basically control the future of a brand.
And I think it also challenges the notion
of like, hey, like how authentic is this?
Like there's plenty of threads where
people actually like dive deep into
like the actual, like Reddit results
and like, yeah, these were all like,
these are all not impartial posts
that Google is actually surfacing.
Marc Sirkin: That stories are major,
major caution, uh, cautionary tale.
And it's, and it's scary because
these, you know, you're building
property on rented land.
You're expecting it to, to, to
yield and to, to provide ROI.
Um, but a platform like Reddit, uh, is
tricky to use, let alone as an individual
with opinions, let alone a brand.
And so that, that story, that's
like a, it's a code development
training website or something, right.
That got got destroyed.
So Yes, like it's an, it's
again, it's unprecedented.
Right?
And this is part of the challenge
is that, you know, I said earlier,
like, be prepared to be surprised and
live in a moment where it's like, we
don't know what's gonna happen next.
So like.
Put your, you know, put your head on
a swivel and get ready to go, because
anybody who's out there telling you,
I know what's gonna happen next is
doesn't, they can't, it's not possible.
Greg Boone: It's not.
I took a, a leadership, uh,
in the age of AI course at MIT
at the beginning of the year.
And, uh, Dr. Westerman said,
uh, he was talking about Moore's
Law and he was talking about
the speed and exponential curve.
He said, if anybody ask you what's
your five year plan, tell them
the time, the moment they ask
you, it was already 10 years off.
Marc Sirkin: That's right.
Greg Boone: Right.
He said, that's the
part that people don't.
Fully grasp and understand, and
I keep trying to get this across.
The speed of this is radically different.
And so people, your assumptions.
And, um, my, my final question,
and we'll wrap up here is that, uh,
there was a comment from, uh, Kieran
Flanagan, SVP, uh, Marceting at HubSpot.
You
Greg Boone: know, they've
been deep into ai.
I've been following them quite
a bit, um, over the last year.
And he, he posted something a few weeks
back and he said, all
Marceters in the age of
Greg Boone: ai.
Need to be able to write code.
And he was talking a combination
of vibe, coding and understanding.
And a lot of people were
like, ah, I don't know.
Right.
But when I think about Chris and I think
about myself and others, I'm like, I,
if you don't understand it, at some
level, at least this is my position.
So I posed the question to you guys.
How more, how much more technically
savvy do you think Marceters would have to
Greg Boone: be in 2026?
Chris Long: Uh.
Uh, and a lot more I think.
Right?
Because it's, it's getting
exponentially harder, right?
And like, I don't need to go into
full details, but like, even just
the concept of quarry fan outs, these
AI models just don't search one.
It's like, instead of one quarry getting
search, it's 10 quarries getting searched.
Right?
But like, the cool thing is, and this
is where AI becomes a voice in my
opinion, is like you can use the a,
you can, you can access it via the API.
I'm not a developer, my co-founder
actually is, but like all day, like
a couple weeks ago, he was like.
Here's how you set up clog code.
Clog code will create it, and here,
here you can u you can go ahead and
use clog code to create a Python
script, to get to query the API.
Then you can get 60 different
thou thousand fan out queries.
So
like, yes, I think
Marceters need to be more
Chris Long: technical because the way
the systems work is much more complex.
There is data available that's gonna
empower you to do your job better.
You could, in theory, you get all the api,
you could in theory get like thousands
of fake van out ques for your site.
Um, but you need an API to do that.
But AI becomes a voice and like
it requires a little, like, you
know, people who don't know how to
code like me to actually be able
to create technical solutions.
You know, whether you're doing something
simple like just asking chat GPD to
create you a Python script or you can
configure clog codes, you configure
it and then rework it and then test
it all completely autonomously, right?
So like in that, I think, yes, it's a tire
technical understanding, but the, the.
Barrier to B Tech to have
technical capabilities has never
been lower than it's been before.
Marc Sirkin: Yeah.
Full, full agree.
And I think, you know, even pulling it
out of the, you know, API world, um,
something like, how do you configure
your email authentication properly?
Right?
Well, you need to log in your
DNS you need to create records.
This is how you do it.
This is what I, I mean, I, I, this
is what I did literally last night.
I have a new Google Workspace.
I'm like, shoot, I gotta
get my D Kimm set up.
I, I, I'm not, you know, like I
know what D Kimm is, that's, I'm
ahead of most people, but like.
How do you set it up?
What's the exact way to configure
it and now how do you test it?
Like, like you're absolutely right Chris.
The barrier to technical
has never been lower.
Um, but the requirement now is on
the technic on the
Marceting people to sort
Marc Sirkin: of like set the
situation up correctly in the
first place and not say, well I'll
have my IT guy that doesn't work.
Like I'll have my IT guy is not a saying.
We're gonna hear very much in the future.
And what happens to the IT guys is
another conversation for another time.
But I think.
The technical capabilities that
are at our disposal for those
willing to learn is unlimited.
Greg Boone: You know, I appreciate
you guys so much for that I,
to, to both of your credits.
I said the same thing back in May
and in Chicago with the A MAI was
talking to a lot of
Marceters behind the scenes
Greg Boone: and they would all,
you know, a lot of 'em were saying,
well, my IT team is working on that.
I said, man, I said, I don't think
you understand what's coming.
I said, I would be.
All in trying to understand this, and to
Chris's point, I know how to write code.
I had to trace code using Notepad
with no IDE when I was in college.
Right.
To show my age.
Right.
But I don't think you necessarily
need that, whether you're,
you're embracing Claude.
I saw Will Reynolds, who I follow a lot.
I know you guys know Will.
Right?
I, I told, I, I messaged him one time.
I said, man, I really appreciate
how you've shown the things that
you know and you're honest about
the things that you don't know and
that you started to experiment.
Not, you know, and really start
to lean into this stuff, and I
think folks are gonna have to, to
lean in it to it more and more.
I started this podcast because I
always tell folks there's this wave
that hit in November of 2022, right?
The tsunami hit.
I said, you can I get the people
that run for the hills, right?
I get the weirdos like us, that
wanna figure out how to ride away.
I said, but what I don't understand
is all the people that are standing
on the shore just looking up.
Waiting to get crushed, right?
Because that is gonna be a,
you know, a scary situation.
And what I said to my chairman,
he said, why'd you name it this?
He said, man, I'm trying to make sure
people understand what's coming because
I don't want this on my conscience.
Right?
Like, 'cause it is gonna radically change
and it is shifting Marcets
and making changes.
Greg Boone: So I appreciate
you both for, for today.
Um, this has been a amazing conversation.
Thank you so much.
Marc Sirkin: Thanks for having us.
Greg Boone: Appreciate it, Greg.
Erica Rooney: Thanks for joining
us on AI, voice or victim.
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