High-impact Individuals, Fewer Jobs, and AI Impact with Brian Ardinger and Robyn Bolton

On this week's episode of Inside Outside Innovation, Robyn and I talk about the rise of the high-impact individual contributor, more startups and fewer jobs, and how AI is going to destroy our lives or not. Let's get started. 

Inside Outside Innovation is the podcast to help innovation leaders navigate what's next. Each week, we'll give you a front row seat into what it takes to grow and thrive in a world of hyper uncertainty and accelerating change. Join me, Brian Ardinger, and Mile Zero's Robyn Bolton as we discuss the latest tools, tactics, and trends for creating innovations with impact. Let's get started. 

[00:00:00] Brian Ardinger:  Welcome to another episode of Inside Outside Innovation. I'm your host, Brian Ardinger, and with me is Robyn Bolton. Hello, Robyn. How are you? 

[00:00:45]  Robyn Bolton: I'm good. How are you, Brian? 

[00:00:47] Brian Ardinger: We're doing well this week. We're excited to talk about all the new things that are happening in the world of innovation. I'm going to just jump right into the articles.

The Rise of the High-Impact Individual Contributor

The first article we want to talk about is from Alaina Verna. She has a blog post called IC Work Is the New Career Flex, with the subtitle of The Rise of High-Impact Individual Contributor.

We're going to talk about the individual contributor and the fact that it is changing the way that careers are set. She talks a little bit about the fact that, you used to build a career on, how can I become a VP and move my way up the ladder?

And now with the rise of AI and tools, et cetera, an individual contributor, maybe not managing a group of people can actually have a major impact in the world by, working with agents or building tools and having the tools to impact and build things themselves. So, it's a interesting talk about this new world and how maybe the rise of the individual contributor is going to change the way we do work.

[00:01:44]  Robyn Bolton: Yeah, so I love this idea. As soon as I saw this article from you, Brian, I saw Hi-C, like I flashed back to lunch in during my entire K through 12 and every day I had a Hi-C juice box, and I was like, "Yes, tell me more about Hi-C." But this article broke my brain in a way that was ... should've been expected because one of the early points she makes is that as a high-impact individual contributor, you probably are essentially running a team, but you've got a team of agents that are helping you.

How AI Agents Are Changing Career Paths

And so, you should actually be compensated and rewarded as someone who has a team, as a team leader, because you're doing the ... You're producing the value that a team is producing, and but you're still an individual contributor. And for some reason my brain went into HR mode and was like, "Gah, how is... that doesn't work."

But I think that's going to be the reality. There are today billion-dollar companies that have 10 human employees and, armies of agents getting the work done. So I think this is yet another disruption that we're gonna be facing of now with agents, now with AI and LLMs and all those things that we can have one person producing the value and doing the work of a whole team, and how do we adjust companies, org charts, incentive systems- all of that to reflect that? 

[00:03:14] Brian Ardinger: And I think the other important part about this is the fact that, individual contributors, you have to start thinking about what is my actual contribution? Where, what am I good at, and what do I have to... What can I lean on the AI to be good at?

And truly understanding what, where you can add impact is gonna be more important. It used to be where you're told, "Here's where your job is and this is where you're going to impact it." Now you have the opportunity to spread those wings, but you also have to be cognizant of where, what value you c- you can add and where you can leverage the tools and technologies that are out there to make you even better, and to maybe- Yeah add value that you hadn't been able to add before. 

[00:03:48]  Robyn Bolton: Yeah. And I will say there was one little kind of red flag in the article about midway through, where she talks about when she had a team, she's part of a, growth team essentially at her company. And she wrote I've always loved what I do, but a big part of my job was draining me, building decks for cross-functional alignment.

Why Cross-Functional Alignment Still Matters

And I get it, building decks is draining. But that muscle around cross-functional alignment and the need to have conversations with your peers and build cross-functional alignment and get support from other humans is a really important skill. And there is a there is a risk that if you are an individual contributor and you love being an individual contributor and you love doing the work, that you go all in on just doing the work, and you don't seek that alignment. You don't seek that input.

So there, there is that still little bit of you can't go all in on being the individual contributor because humans are still part of the organization, and you still need support, and you still need to be able to work with other people. So little bit of a red flag, but, still an interesting thought.

[00:05:02] Brian Ardinger: And it'll be interesting to see how this, again, how this plays out as more and more people start, learning and playing and with AI and agents and the future has not yet been written. 

[00:05:10]  Robyn Bolton: That is the truth. 

[00:05:12] Brian Ardinger: All right, the next article is More Startups, Fewer Jobs by Donna Harris. She has a LinkedIn article talking about for 15 years, the startup economy has operated with a relatively stable assumption that more startups equals more jobs.

But she goes on to talk about the newest Kauffman data suggests that relationship is changing. Yes, we have more founders, but we're producing fewer jobs per founder. And so maybe it goes back to the previous article, these individual contributors. Can you do more? Can you build a startup with fewer people?

More Startups, Fewer Jobs in the Innovation Economy

And that idea of startup job creation apparently it peaked in 1997 at 7.9 jobs per 1,000 people, and in 2025 that figure is now 5.3, so it's a decline of, roughly a third. And what is that impact for startups, for communities if you can build companies with fewer people? 

[00:06:02]  Robyn Bolton: This was an interesting article because it raised for me more questions than answers. And she seems to use startup and entrepreneurship synonymously, which I totally understand why you would, but I think they can, in the context of this article, have two different meanings. 

[00:06:18] Brian Ardinger: Right. 

[00:06:18]  Robyn Bolton: And it even begs the question of how do you define a startup? And she talks about how the definition of a startup has changed, and has become very much around VC funding, et cetera.

So it's one let's get clear of what we're talking about on what is a startup then versus now, what is entrepreneurship. But, ultimately it, it does come down to the fact that, yeah, with agents with the new technology we have, even with globalization and virtual employees and fractional employees You can have a startup that has, again, could be a billion-dollar startup that has very few humans working.

I think her main point around how the entrepreneurship economy has changed and evolved is a really important one, and she highlights a lot of things that systemically now are not aligned. And so I think it's very much the beginning of a conversation that we need to have, especially around the approach of, hey, if startups equal employment, and that's what we're funding and working against, that may no longer be true.

Rethinking Startup Funding and Job Creation

[00:07:24] Brian Ardinger: And the ripple effect that a lot of these systems have been, ecosystem have put in place, whether it's economic development incentives or venture capital, all those particular pieces that used to work in a system that was, designed around, creating value for the community by new companies adding more jobs how does that impact those the way we fund those things, the way we help those new entities get created and the way communities themselves grow?

I think for, state like Nebraska, which is fairly rural, do you really need job creation? Or is it- ... for some of these particular areas that are not gonna be able to instantly bring 2,000, 5,000 people into their city what is the impact and value of a person with a team of AI agents that can create significant market value but not necessarily is creating the jobs?

[00:08:10]  Robyn Bolton: Yep. It's interesting questions. It's fog, it's ooze. 

[00:08:15] Brian Ardinger: More fog. All right. Along those lines Kyla Scanlon has a great article titled, Is AI Going to Destroy Our Lives or Not? And I think going back to the fog, I think half the articles we read, it is going to destroy our lives, and half the articles we read are it's not going to destroy our lives, and obviously the answer is probably in the middle.

But she talks about how do you get through this fog, and is AI really going to work or not work? And she has a lot of different examples around what she's seeing in the marketplace. And one of the things that I think stood out to me in this article is she says that, we should be thinking about thinking of the jobs as a bundle of tasks.

Will AI Destroy Jobs or Redefine Work?

And so if we think about what is gonna be replacing AI or who's gonna be replaced with AI, if we can start thinking about it from a task perspective versus a who is doing that particular role, it may give us a little bit more insight into what's actually going to be the impact on these on these new technologies.

[00:09:08]  Robyn Bolton: Yeah. This was very thought-provoking with all of the data. This is incredibly well-researched, cited, sourced article, and there's a lot to think about here.

One of her other points that jumped out at me was what she calls the AI confusion problem opportunity, where she talks about lost cohorts because a lot of the tasks, you just said, think about a job as a bundle of tasks. A lot of the tasks that we give junior people, new hires, are things that can easily be outsourced- to AI. And yet those tasks are things that train people to think and train people for kind of the higher level work of developing judgment and discernment, and prepare them to think like future leaders.

And so while, yes, we can outsource the mechanics of the work to AI, we're getting lost cohorts of people who can do the thinking that results from learning that skill. And so it's a challenge and, it's one that I've heard companies saying, I've actually heard several companies say, "We no longer hire people with less than five years experience."

The Lost Cohort Problem in AI-Driven Workplaces

And you're like where are you supposed to get the five years experience?" So it's speaking to the disruption, the change that is happening, and we're gonna figure this out by through experimenting, whether we want to or not. 

[00:10:33] Brian Ardinger: And a funny quote at the end, she talks about how, the quote is, "My take on it is that AI is like freeze-dried camp food." Yeah. "It does a good enough job, it's filling enough, but it isn't something you wanna eat every day." And I think to a certain extent, that is true. If everything becomes commoditized, if everything becomes perfect and efficient from the number of calories, the fat, and the protein sometimes we just crave the home-cooked meal for a reason.

It's because it's a nice thing. How do you define value, and how do you define- ... value creation? It's not always going to be the same thing for the same person, and it seems like a lot of these tools are trying to or maybe not even trying to, but are kinda commoditizing the perfect which may not be exactly what people value.

[00:11:16]  Robyn Bolton: Yep 

[00:11:18] Brian Ardinger: All right, and the final article today is a LinkedIn post by Ash Maura. Conversations are experiments. We've talked a lot about this, and the importance of customer discovery the importance of experimenting and testing things at the early stages. And Ash has a great article talking about how we look at these particular types of experiments.

Customer Discovery Starts with Better Conversations

And a lot of times we often undervalue the fact that conversations themselves are experiments. How do we actually have conversations, understand what people are thinking, what our customers are needing, and actually being able to then track those particular conversations and quantify that as an experiment is an important piece of the early-stage process of launching something new.

[00:11:59]  Robyn Bolton: Yeah. First off, I'm willing to bet that this post was written by AI- because it has the hallmarks of written by AI. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't make a great point. And the idea of thinking about conversations as an experiment, I think is a really helpful framing because what he describes in the article of founders or really kind of any innovator, any, I would say, insecure overachiever, regardless of what kind of business they're in, tend to read all the books and absorb all the frameworks, and want to get things perfect before they go out into the world.

And I will tell you as someone who did read all the books on jobs to be done, did do all the training, all of that before I went and had the first conversation, my first jobs to be done interview was a complete disaster. Because you can read all the things, but that doesn't mean you can do it.

Why Messy Customer Conversations Create Better Insights

I found myself getting so in my head during that first conversation about "Oh, I did this wrong, I did that wrong," that I couldn't actually have a conversation. So yes, read up. Yes, kind of get smart around how you want to approach things and why some things work, why they don't, what your viewpoint is on it.

But don't obsess over trying to get everything perfect because I guarantee you the first conversation you have, you will be a disaster and you just got to have multiple conversations, and if you view that as an experiment so you can get out of your way, go for it. 

[00:13:31] Brian Ardinger: And the value of the conversation itself is the fact that it is messy, it's unscripted a lot of times, it's awkward, and that awkwardness oftentimes brings out the different human connection that you really need to- understand the customer. And founders oftentimes avoid those conversations because, they don't want to be pushed back on or, they think they know everything that they have insight into.

But I go back to I talk to entrepreneurs all the time and it's like customer discovery is not something you do and then check it off the list and say, "I'm done with customer discovery." It's always having those conversations with customers to understand that the world they're living in and the world that you are helping them live in and having conversations is probably the foundational piece of that. So build that into your business. 

[00:14:10]  Robyn Bolton: Yep. It goes back to what we talked about in a previous podcast of, focusing in a niche and really deeply understanding and having empathy for that niche. The best way to do that, the only way to do that, is to have the conversations and to have lots of them. 

[00:14:25] Brian Ardinger: Absolutely. Thank you for having this conversation. Thank you for the audience of Inside Outside Innovation. We appreciate it very much and we look forward to seeing you next time.

[00:14:32]  Robyn Bolton: See you next time. 

[00:14:35] Brian Ardinger: That's it for another episode of Inside Outside Innovation. Today's episode was produced and engineered by Susan Stibal. If you want to learn more about our teams, our content, our services, check out insideoutside.io, or if you want to connect with Robyn Bolton, go to milezero.io. And until next time, go out and innovate 

What is Inside Outside Innovation?

Inside Outside Innovation explores the ins and outs of innovation with raw stories, real insights, and tactical advice from the best and brightest in startups & corporate innovation.

Each week we bring you the latest thinking on talent, technology, and the future of innovation. Join our community of movers, shakers, makers, founders, builders, and creators to help speed up your knowledge, skills, and network.

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This podcast is available on all podcast platforms and InsideOutside.io. Sign up for the weekly innovation newsletter at http://bit.ly/ionewsletter. Follow Brian on Twitter at @ardinger or @theiopodcast or Email [e-mail]

On this week's episode of Inside Outside Innovation, Robyn and I talk about the rise of the high-impact individual contributor, more startups and fewer jobs, and how AI is going to destroy our lives or not. Let's get started.

Inside Outside Innovation is the podcast to help innovation leaders navigate what's next. Each week, we'll give you a front row seat into what it takes to grow and thrive in a world of hyper uncertainty and accelerating change. Join me, Brian Ardinger, and Mile Zero's Robyn Bolton as we discuss the latest tools, tactics, and trends for creating innovations with impact. Let's get started.

[00:00:00] Brian Ardinger: Welcome to another episode of Inside Outside Innovation. I'm your host, Brian Ardinger, and with me is Robyn Bolton. Hello, Robyn. How are you?

[00:00:45] Robyn Bolton: I'm good. How are you, Brian?

[00:00:47] Brian Ardinger: We're doing well this week. We're excited to talk about all the new things that are happening in the world of innovation. I'm going to just jump right into the articles.

The Rise of the High-Impact Individual Contributor

The first article we want to talk about is from Alaina Verna. She has a blog post called IC Work Is the New Career Flex, with the subtitle of The Rise of High-Impact Individual Contributor.

We're going to talk about the individual contributor and the fact that it is changing the way that careers are set. She talks a little bit about the fact that, you used to build a career on, how can I become a VP and move my way up the ladder?

And now with the rise of AI and tools, et cetera, an individual contributor, maybe not managing a group of people can actually have a major impact in the world by, working with agents or building tools and having the tools to impact and build things themselves. So, it's a interesting talk about this new world and how maybe the rise of the individual contributor is going to change the way we do work.

[00:01:44] Robyn Bolton: Yeah, so I love this idea. As soon as I saw this article from you, Brian, I saw Hi-C, like I flashed back to lunch in during my entire K through 12 and every day I had a Hi-C juice box, and I was like, "Yes, tell me more about Hi-C." But this article broke my brain in a way that was ... should've been expected because one of the early points she makes is that as a high-impact individual contributor, you probably are essentially running a team, but you've got a team of agents that are helping you.

How AI Agents Are Changing Career Paths

And so, you should actually be compensated and rewarded as someone who has a team, as a team leader, because you're doing the ... You're producing the value that a team is producing, and but you're still an individual contributor. And for some reason my brain went into HR mode and was like, "Gah, how is... that doesn't work."

But I think that's going to be the reality. There are today billion-dollar companies that have 10 human employees and, armies of agents getting the work done. So I think this is yet another disruption that we're gonna be facing of now with agents, now with AI and LLMs and all those things that we can have one person producing the value and doing the work of a whole team, and how do we adjust companies, org charts, incentive systems- all of that to reflect that?

[00:03:14] Brian Ardinger: And I think the other important part about this is the fact that, individual contributors, you have to start thinking about what is my actual contribution? Where, what am I good at, and what do I have to... What can I lean on the AI to be good at?

And truly understanding what, where you can add impact is gonna be more important. It used to be where you're told, "Here's where your job is and this is where you're going to impact it." Now you have the opportunity to spread those wings, but you also have to be cognizant of where, what value you c- you can add and where you can leverage the tools and technologies that are out there to make you even better, and to maybe- Yeah add value that you hadn't been able to add before.

[00:03:48] Robyn Bolton: Yeah. And I will say there was one little kind of red flag in the article about midway through, where she talks about when she had a team, she's part of a, growth team essentially at her company. And she wrote I've always loved what I do, but a big part of my job was draining me, building decks for cross-functional alignment.

Why Cross-Functional Alignment Still Matters

And I get it, building decks is draining. But that muscle around cross-functional alignment and the need to have conversations with your peers and build cross-functional alignment and get support from other humans is a really important skill. And there is a there is a risk that if you are an individual contributor and you love being an individual contributor and you love doing the work, that you go all in on just doing the work, and you don't seek that alignment. You don't seek that input.

So there, there is that still little bit of you can't go all in on being the individual contributor because humans are still part of the organization, and you still need support, and you still need to be able to work with other people. So little bit of a red flag, but, still an interesting thought.

[00:05:02] Brian Ardinger: And it'll be interesting to see how this, again, how this plays out as more and more people start, learning and playing and with AI and agents and the future has not yet been written.

[00:05:10] Robyn Bolton: That is the truth.

[00:05:12] Brian Ardinger: All right, the next article is More Startups, Fewer Jobs by Donna Harris. She has a LinkedIn article talking about for 15 years, the startup economy has operated with a relatively stable assumption that more startups equals more jobs.

But she goes on to talk about the newest Kauffman data suggests that relationship is changing. Yes, we have more founders, but we're producing fewer jobs per founder. And so maybe it goes back to the previous article, these individual contributors. Can you do more? Can you build a startup with fewer people?

More Startups, Fewer Jobs in the Innovation Economy

And that idea of startup job creation apparently it peaked in 1997 at 7.9 jobs per 1,000 people, and in 2025 that figure is now 5.3, so it's a decline of, roughly a third. And what is that impact for startups, for communities if you can build companies with fewer people?

[00:06:02] Robyn Bolton: This was an interesting article because it raised for me more questions than answers. And she seems to use startup and entrepreneurship synonymously, which I totally understand why you would, but I think they can, in the context of this article, have two different meanings.

[00:06:18] Brian Ardinger: Right.

[00:06:18] Robyn Bolton: And it even begs the question of how do you define a startup? And she talks about how the definition of a startup has changed, and has become very much around VC funding, et cetera.

So it's one let's get clear of what we're talking about on what is a startup then versus now, what is entrepreneurship. But, ultimately it, it does come down to the fact that, yeah, with agents with the new technology we have, even with globalization and virtual employees and fractional employees You can have a startup that has, again, could be a billion-dollar startup that has very few humans working.

I think her main point around how the entrepreneurship economy has changed and evolved is a really important one, and she highlights a lot of things that systemically now are not aligned. And so I think it's very much the beginning of a conversation that we need to have, especially around the approach of, hey, if startups equal employment, and that's what we're funding and working against, that may no longer be true.

Rethinking Startup Funding and Job Creation

[00:07:24] Brian Ardinger: And the ripple effect that a lot of these systems have been, ecosystem have put in place, whether it's economic development incentives or venture capital, all those particular pieces that used to work in a system that was, designed around, creating value for the community by new companies adding more jobs how does that impact those the way we fund those things, the way we help those new entities get created and the way communities themselves grow?

I think for, state like Nebraska, which is fairly rural, do you really need job creation? Or is it- ... for some of these particular areas that are not gonna be able to instantly bring 2,000, 5,000 people into their city what is the impact and value of a person with a team of AI agents that can create significant market value but not necessarily is creating the jobs?

[00:08:10] Robyn Bolton: Yep. It's interesting questions. It's fog, it's ooze.

[00:08:15] Brian Ardinger: More fog. All right. Along those lines Kyla Scanlon has a great article titled, Is AI Going to Destroy Our Lives or Not? And I think going back to the fog, I think half the articles we read, it is going to destroy our lives, and half the articles we read are it's not going to destroy our lives, and obviously the answer is probably in the middle.

But she talks about how do you get through this fog, and is AI really going to work or not work? And she has a lot of different examples around what she's seeing in the marketplace. And one of the things that I think stood out to me in this article is she says that, we should be thinking about thinking of the jobs as a bundle of tasks.

Will AI Destroy Jobs or Redefine Work?

And so if we think about what is gonna be replacing AI or who's gonna be replaced with AI, if we can start thinking about it from a task perspective versus a who is doing that particular role, it may give us a little bit more insight into what's actually going to be the impact on these on these new technologies.

[00:09:08] Robyn Bolton: Yeah. This was very thought-provoking with all of the data. This is incredibly well-researched, cited, sourced article, and there's a lot to think about here.

One of her other points that jumped out at me was what she calls the AI confusion problem opportunity, where she talks about lost cohorts because a lot of the tasks, you just said, think about a job as a bundle of tasks. A lot of the tasks that we give junior people, new hires, are things that can easily be outsourced- to AI. And yet those tasks are things that train people to think and train people for kind of the higher level work of developing judgment and discernment, and prepare them to think like future leaders.

And so while, yes, we can outsource the mechanics of the work to AI, we're getting lost cohorts of people who can do the thinking that results from learning that skill. And so it's a challenge and, it's one that I've heard companies saying, I've actually heard several companies say, "We no longer hire people with less than five years experience."

The Lost Cohort Problem in AI-Driven Workplaces

And you're like where are you supposed to get the five years experience?" So it's speaking to the disruption, the change that is happening, and we're gonna figure this out by through experimenting, whether we want to or not.

[00:10:33] Brian Ardinger: And a funny quote at the end, she talks about how, the quote is, "My take on it is that AI is like freeze-dried camp food." Yeah. "It does a good enough job, it's filling enough, but it isn't something you wanna eat every day." And I think to a certain extent, that is true. If everything becomes commoditized, if everything becomes perfect and efficient from the number of calories, the fat, and the protein sometimes we just crave the home-cooked meal for a reason.

It's because it's a nice thing. How do you define value, and how do you define- ... value creation? It's not always going to be the same thing for the same person, and it seems like a lot of these tools are trying to or maybe not even trying to, but are kinda commoditizing the perfect which may not be exactly what people value.

[00:11:16] Robyn Bolton: Yep

[00:11:18] Brian Ardinger: All right, and the final article today is a LinkedIn post by Ash Maura. Conversations are experiments. We've talked a lot about this, and the importance of customer discovery the importance of experimenting and testing things at the early stages. And Ash has a great article talking about how we look at these particular types of experiments.

Customer Discovery Starts with Better Conversations

And a lot of times we often undervalue the fact that conversations themselves are experiments. How do we actually have conversations, understand what people are thinking, what our customers are needing, and actually being able to then track those particular conversations and quantify that as an experiment is an important piece of the early-stage process of launching something new.

[00:11:59] Robyn Bolton: Yeah. First off, I'm willing to bet that this post was written by AI- because it has the hallmarks of written by AI. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't make a great point. And the idea of thinking about conversations as an experiment, I think is a really helpful framing because what he describes in the article of founders or really kind of any innovator, any, I would say, insecure overachiever, regardless of what kind of business they're in, tend to read all the books and absorb all the frameworks, and want to get things perfect before they go out into the world.

And I will tell you as someone who did read all the books on jobs to be done, did do all the training, all of that before I went and had the first conversation, my first jobs to be done interview was a complete disaster. Because you can read all the things, but that doesn't mean you can do it.

Why Messy Customer Conversations Create Better Insights

I found myself getting so in my head during that first conversation about "Oh, I did this wrong, I did that wrong," that I couldn't actually have a conversation. So yes, read up. Yes, kind of get smart around how you want to approach things and why some things work, why they don't, what your viewpoint is on it.

But don't obsess over trying to get everything perfect because I guarantee you the first conversation you have, you will be a disaster and you just got to have multiple conversations, and if you view that as an experiment so you can get out of your way, go for it.

[00:13:31] Brian Ardinger: And the value of the conversation itself is the fact that it is messy, it's unscripted a lot of times, it's awkward, and that awkwardness oftentimes brings out the different human connection that you really need to- understand the customer. And founders oftentimes avoid those conversations because, they don't want to be pushed back on or, they think they know everything that they have insight into.

But I go back to I talk to entrepreneurs all the time and it's like customer discovery is not something you do and then check it off the list and say, "I'm done with customer discovery." It's always having those conversations with customers to understand that the world they're living in and the world that you are helping them live in and having conversations is probably the foundational piece of that. So build that into your business.

[00:14:10] Robyn Bolton: Yep. It goes back to what we talked about in a previous podcast of, focusing in a niche and really deeply understanding and having empathy for that niche. The best way to do that, the only way to do that, is to have the conversations and to have lots of them.

[00:14:25] Brian Ardinger: Absolutely. Thank you for having this conversation. Thank you for the audience of Inside Outside Innovation. We appreciate it very much and we look forward to seeing you next time.

[00:14:32] Robyn Bolton: See you next time.

[00:14:35] Brian Ardinger: That's it for another episode of Inside Outside Innovation. Today's episode was produced and engineered by Susan Stibal. If you want to learn more about our teams, our content, our services, check out insideoutside.io, or if you want to connect with Robyn Bolton, go to milezero.io. And until next time, go out and innovate