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Leading Awake is where top executives, founders, and senior leaders drop the mask and get real about the human side of leading at the highest level. The high-pressure, high-stakes moments where leadership actually counts. The decisions, conversations, and responses that can't be taken back. Each episode brings three of them into the kind of unscripted, honest conversation that doesn't usually happen in public.
Leading Awake — Episode 4: Deciding When You Don't Know
Speakers
Gilan Gork — Host, Leading Awake / PeakAwake
Leah McCrae — Managing Director, Rand Capital Coffee / Starbucks South Africa
Eugene van der Merwe — Chief Information Officer, Tiger Brands
(At time of recording: CIO, AVI Limited)
Devandre Lawrence — Head of HR, Pernod Ricard Africa
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COLD OPEN
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Gilan Gork (00:00.12)
Here's a conversation I think every leader needs to hear.
Leah McCrae (00:03.072)
Is it okay if I don't know the answer?
Eugene van der Merwe (00:05.442)
When you're vulnerable in the right way, people around you open up as well. They become vulnerable. It becomes real.
Gilan Gork (00:05.442)
Listen to three senior leaders really get honest about what happens when you need to make the call but you don't have all the answers. The CIO of Tiger Brands, the MD of Rand Capital Coffee running Starbucks South Africa, and the head of HR at Pernod Ricard Africa.
Devandre Lawrence (00:05.442)
For me, my compass has always been the why.
Leah McCrae (00:27.362)
The only way out of a wrong decision is honesty.
Gilan Gork (00:30.254)
Three leaders and the kind of honesty that you rarely hear from people at this level.
Eugene van der Merwe (00:30.254)
It's your colleague, your friend that's in ICU on a ventilator.
Devandre Lawrence (00:30.254)
I went for counselling.
Eugene van der Merwe (00:30.254)
They will overcommit themselves and eventually they break.
Devandre Lawrence (00:30.254)
Leadership holds no title, it holds identity.
Leah McCrae (00:45.272)
I think it's balancing transparency with honesty. Not everyone can hold the information.
Eugene van der Merwe (00:52.64)
Making decisions under high pressure, high emotional states isn't easy and it's not always for the best.
Gilan Gork (00:52.64)
This episode is called Deciding When You Don't Know.
Devandre Lawrence (00:52.64)
The challenges are still there, the fears are still there, but the difference is my mindset.
Leah McCrae (01:07.478)
Just winging it.
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HOST INTRO
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Gilan Gork (01:12.994)
Welcome to Leading Awake. I'm Gilan Gork. I want you to think about the last time you had to make a significant decision and you didn't have enough information. Maybe you were looking around the room and everyone was looking at you, waiting, and part of you was thinking, I should know this. I should have the answer. But you didn't. And you had to do something anyway. That's what this episode is about. The moments where leaders have to act without certainty.
Where the pressure is real and where the gap between what people expect from you and what you actually feel is wider than anyone around you actually realises. And by the way, if you're new to the show, a bit about me — my background's pretty unusual. I started out as a professional mentalist working with the human mind on stages around the world. And that path eventually led me into the world of leadership, working with leaders and organisations across the globe on what it really takes to see clearly and respond wisely under pressure.
And that's what this show is about. It's about the inner game of leadership. The stuff that doesn't get talked about enough. And that's probably the stuff that matters most. And today's conversation is called Deciding When You Don't Know. For this conversation, I sat down with three leaders who've each been in that position and found very different ways through it.
Leah McCrae is the managing director of Rand Capital Coffee and the force behind Starbucks South Africa. She's the kind of leader who brought a company out of bankruptcy through COVID, through load shedding and supply chain chaos, and at one point during that journey sat in a boardroom and said six words that changed everything: is it okay if I don't know? And what happened next, and what it taught her about vulnerability and trust, is something that I think a lot of leaders need to hear.
Eugene van der Merwe is the chief information officer at Tiger Brands. At the time of recording this episode, he was towards the end of his more than ten years' tenure as CIO of AVI Limited. Now, during the pandemic, he was leading a team that had to keep essential services running while people literally feared for their lives. And he talks in this conversation about what it's like when the stakes are literally life and death. And the moment a close colleague ended up in ICU on a ventilator — that's when the decisions stopped being strategic and became deeply personal.
And Devandre Lawrence, who is head of HR at Pernod Ricard Africa. He came into the corporate world from a disadvantaged community and with an identity he thought would never be accepted in an industrial FMCG environment that expected a certain look and sound from its leaders. He shares something in this episode that I think takes real courage, which is how imposter syndrome led him to counselling and how working through his childhood trauma is the thing that ultimately made him the leader that he is today.
So we have three leaders, three very different journeys, and one question that they've all had to sit with. What do you do when you're supposed to have the answers and you don't?
Now, before we jump in, a quick word about my PEAK Practice programme. There's a formula I keep coming back to: performance equals potential minus interference. Now, for most experienced leaders, their most important leadership development is not about needing more skills. It's about clearing the inner interference that shows up when you're under pressure. And that's what the PEAK Practice helps leaders to do. If that sounds interesting to you, you can learn more at peakawake.com. And for now, let's get into the discussion.
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CONVERSATION
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Gilan Gork (03:30.08)
Welcome everyone. There is a question that I ask all the leaders who are participating in these Leading Awake roundtables. And your answer doesn't have to be within the main theme of today's discussion, but is there one belief related to leadership or maybe culture that you've changed your mind about, either recently or maybe over the course of your career?
Devandre Lawrence (03:30.08)
For me, the big thing is having a certain look and feel about leadership. I think growing up, we often have mentors and coaches that have led us and have shown and paved the way. And there's a piece of imposter syndrome — you kind of have a set picture of what leadership should be. And what I've come to learn is that it's so different from what I thought. You know, we are all uniquely built and authentically ourselves, and that influences how we lead and how we show up. And leadership looks different. But how we own that, how we identify that, and how we emanate the behaviours are uniquely ours. And I think that's special about leadership.
Eugene van der Merwe (05:26.842)
I think humility plays a big part in that. We're not where we are without those around us. Somebody gave you an opportunity at some stage. You kind of build from there, you build your own brand, you build your own unique style of management. There isn't a right or wrong necessarily in that. It's playing to your strengths, being authentic in who you are and what you want to portray. So the humility, and just accepting that it's not all about you — it's the people around you, the leaders that have allowed you to grow and mentor and coach you through the process. That's one of the biggest lessons I've learned the last couple of years.
Leah McCrae (06:26.53)
Well, I feel like I'm stealing what Eugene was saying, but it's exactly what I was going to say. I realised through the years that I didn't have to know it all. I, you know, exactly that sinking ship — I have to take control, I have to save, I have to fix the broken wings. But it's actually the people around you that actually want to be part of the solution. And if they come to the table and you confide in them, they're the ones that help you through it. So yeah.
Gilan Gork (07:02.126)
I'd love to hear from the three of you perhaps a time when the pressure was high and you chose to show that human side, and what happened after you opened up to your team.
Leah McCrae (07:14.338)
I think a few — not a few years ago, a few many years ago; I've been in business for many years. And I remember just sitting at a boardroom table. It was Exco, one of the top 50 companies in the country, and all these execs were looking at me and we were talking, and I think just being in my head going, I need the answer, I need to come up with something quick and fast. And I just sat back and I just asked — I said, is it okay if I don't know the answer? And the whole board just went quiet. I was like, my goodness, what have I just done here?
And actually, that is where I feel like I even brought my clients in closer. I think it built so much trust within that space, because I so could have easily just rambled on — because, you know, we all have the gift of the gab and we've got to show up. And that was a vulnerable moment that, thank goodness, worked out for me. But it liberated me to go, it's okay. It's okay. And then people, we can come back together and we can investigate. And that's when the collaboration and the trust comes in.
And I think when I really had to think about being this vulnerable leader — because I'm intentionally, I call myself an intentional vulnerable leader — and I work within my feminine space. Hopefully it's my healthy feminine space, and that doesn't come with any gender. So we all have this feminine and masculine energy and how we show up. I've actually shed quite a few tears in front of my teams, where I've just gone, I didn't realise the pressure's just been high. And then of course you see them go, okay, what just happened? And then you want to give context, you go, I'm okay. I'm okay. This is just me. Can I just bring my humanness to the office today? Because things are stressed.
Leah McCrae (09:39.618)
But the first time — when I first came into Rand and especially being in a more male environment — I just burst into tears and I had to pull the team together, because we had brought this company out of bankruptcy and obviously we had never worked in a normalised environment. We went straight into COVID, load shedding, water shedding, strikes, looting. Our supply chain, our ships — we couldn't get stock in the country. We had to keep all these people employed. And I just burst into tears and I said, the only way that I could bring my team together is if we did it together.
And I actually asked one of my team — my right hand — the other day, I was like, out of all the times that I've been really vulnerable, because there's been a few, which one stood out for you? And I really was expecting the answer to be that one where you went, and then actually what he said to me is: when you called us together and you said, guys, we don't know how we're going to get through the rest of the month — and it's not that there's no money in the bank account to pay salaries, but how do we get through this month? How do we get through the next few months? Because we can't feast today and then there's famine tomorrow.
And he said that was one of the most profound times of his career, just seeing me really just be honest. Because I think so many employees think that there's this ivory tower, and I can tell you it doesn't exist. And quite a few years ago, even with one of my creative writers, I wanted to write a book on this fallacy of the ivory tower, because I had seen big, strong men close the doors and actually collapse. So you arrive and you say your speech, rah rah rah, and you know in the background you have many retrenchments coming up. I mean, I went through a space where there were so many retrenchments after 2008.
Leah McCrae (12:00.928)
I saw so many execs close the doors and they were literally on their knees, and employees go, well, it's okay for them, they get the paycheck — and yet it isn't. So it's that balance of how do you be a strong leader to make people feel like you're in control, so that they feel like this ship's not sinking, and then just being honest.
Gilan Gork (12:23.658)
I'd love to know, Eugene and Devandre, what is an experience that you've had around opening up and showing your human side, and how did that turn out?
Eugene van der Merwe (12:23.658)
I guess there's something there that Leah mentioned, and it's when you're vulnerable in the right way, the people around you open up as well. And they become vulnerable and it becomes real. You can share your fears. And we're always seen in the leadership role as having to be absolutely strong, know what to do, know what to say — and we don't. These are challenging times.
And for me, one of the biggest wake-up calls, shall I say, was during COVID. It's an essential services company, so we had to work through the whole COVID process — understanding how to bring people into the office or in the factories while they fear for their lives to such a large extent. It's such an unknown. How long are we going to be in this process? How long is this lockdown going to last? There's no management manual that gives you insights as to what to do in a worldwide crisis of this scale. And how do you manage the fear when you yourself fear for some of these aspects?
And just sitting around the table one morning with the senior leadership team and just acknowledging that I don't have the answers, I don't know what to do — because asking people to come in and work and do what we need to do to provide food out there has an implication of death in some cases, and it has risk associated with it. So where's the humility? Where's the reality in some decisions? And there isn't a clear answer in that. You have to navigate it as best you can. But those things are real scenarios where anxiety runs high, you don't have clear guidance, and you kind of bounce off each other to understand what is the best — although nobody really knows. These are people's lives at stake, families' lives at stake. And it's a real thing that you've got to deal with, and it's an emotional thing.
We had a very close — one of our senior managing directors — fall ill, and it was a close call. It made everything very real. It wasn't something you read in the news. It's your colleague, your friend that's in ICU on a ventilator. Those kind of things really get you.
Eugene van der Merwe (14:46.056)
And it makes the decision process very real and very personal. And there's quite a significant emotional component attached to it. And making decisions under high pressure, high emotional states isn't easy and it's not always for the best. You've got to be careful how you approach those things. But it was challenging to go through that and know that some of our decisions led to this. And this is what we now have to deal with.
A lot of the discussions we had were around: how do we communicate? How do we make sure that our processes are transparent? And to also ensure that the people around us and the people that we lead know what's coming, when it's coming, and how are we approaching some of these topics? And being as consistent as you can be — because it wasn't consistent. We would have a full lockdown in one moment, then a relaxed lockdown and we shift up and down. We had stand-up meetings every morning discussing these things, doing our best to just keep up with the demand and the change in the macro environment, ensuring that those around us are comfortable and that we are comfortable with the decisions we're making.
The challenge ultimately was around how do you decompress after some of these events? Because it takes a significant emotional toll having to be the lead in some of these areas and having to make these calls. And I guess that's where family and private time comes in, where you can let it out — because you can only be vulnerable to some extent when you're kind of heading to lead in this kind of pressured space. But that became a priority: how do we decompress from these events? We had very close colleagues pass away during the pandemic. And those things hit hard. It was consistent. It was relentless. And it takes a toll, no matter how you look at it. It's not something you'll ever forget.
Gilan Gork (14:46.056)
Thanks for that. Devandre, what's your experience been?
Devandre Lawrence (14:46.056)
I think I share the same sentiments as my colleagues, but for me the biggest thing — and something that I hold true to my belief — is that leadership holds no title, it holds identity. And identity is true for each and every one of us. Sometimes there's a facade in terms of how we show up
Devandre Lawrence (17:11.256)
when it comes to leadership, or how we show up around the boardroom, or when the spotlight is on us, we feel that there's a certain look, feel and sound that we need to portray. And that's not true. So the moment you can unmask all of that and really show up and be present in that moment as your true self, I think that's when you break the barriers. And when you move from leadership not being title, but being identity, and being vulnerable through relatability, I think that brings about trust. So people are able to actually relate to you human to human.
When I have the opportunity to speak up, like in a moment like this, people that are leaning in and people that are looking for that hope are able to relate with the Devandre side of me, and not just look at what is taught to us and what we were taught to know, but actually what is reality. So for me, my compass has always been the why. Why am I doing what I'm doing? What has brought me to this point? And what is the legacy I want to leave behind? So I'm always thinking about, you know, a year from now, what is this conversation going to contribute to? And how do I show up as a better version of myself today that myself tomorrow would be proud of?
Through mentorship, through coaching, is where you see there's someone else that has gone through a similar experience to share — you know, I've been there as well. I've stumbled, I've made mistakes, I've sat and I've doubted myself. And there is no endpoint to the destination. It's a continuous journey. Every day I wake up, the challenges are still there, the fears are still there, but the difference is my mindset. I'm in a space now where I'm willing to tackle the fears and I'm willing to take them on because I've got the tools to help me and I understand what my why is.
And so I think leadership exists in each and every one of us. It's leading self. And if the opportunity arises to lead others, it's understanding there's a shift, because it's not only about me — it's about leading self, leading others, and then leading work and success. So that's the leadership framework that I go by. But I think what's important is that when we have moments in rooms that we don't whisper, we speak proudly, we speak loud, and understand that we're representing a whole group of
Devandre Lawrence (19:34.304)
of other people standing behind us and championing us and creating future leaders.
Gilan Gork (19:34.304)
I had such an interesting roundtable a couple of weeks ago. One of the leaders — Ivan Maroka, he's the CEO of Kantar South Africa — and it was so interesting, him bringing up some of the unconscious biases that he still has that he's championing. I wonder, how do you relate to that? So when you talk about dropping the mask and showing people your humanness — let us into the human side of Devandre. What's something that might come to mind?
Devandre Lawrence (19:34.304)
Yeah, I think, a lot. And the reason I'm so passionate about diversity, inclusion, belonging is because I've come from a disadvantaged community. I'm a person of colour. I'm gay. I'm part of the LGBTIQ community. So coming into the workplace and starting in the FMCG industry was tough. There was a persona that was expected that I needed to portray. Being in HR came with its own challenges as well — we were known as regulators of policy, of process. There was a position that we needed to uphold, and it wasn't as evolved as what it is today. So for me, growing up in the industry was tough. I worked in, as I said, the FMCG — it was a 24/7 operation, quite industrial — and I felt that I needed to show up in a certain way. And that deterred me from really leaning in and zoning into the leader that I was becoming. And I think that's where a lot of my imposter syndrome developed, where I had a lot of doubt around my own identity because it was in comparison to everyone else around me.
And so for me, diversity and inclusion is very close to my heart, because we all have something special and unique. We are all uniquely designed, and that is a gift to the workplace. So the fact that we need to conform and we need to be yes-men is something that I contest. I've met a lot of challenges and I've also needed to go through discovery of myself and understand who I was. And a lot of the employee assistance programmes through our workplace supported me with that. So I went for counselling. I understood what my childhood trauma was, what my triggers are.
Devandre Lawrence (22:00.202)
What did I go through that has led me to my thinking patterns, to my habits, to my characteristics? And how do I unlearn and reshape all of that, given the knowledge that I have now and the experience that I have now? And it took a community to get me. It took strong, strong mentors that were authentic themselves, that have helped me and held my hand as I progressed over the years. And my why today, and why I'm in the HR space, is that I can afford the same opportunity to others.
So the first thing I do when I get in the office — I set up my desk and I do my walkabout. It's the coffee conversations, the casual chats. There's no persona. It's the howzit, you know, it's the South African way — it's the howzit — and it's saying, how are you truly doing? And for me, the genuine connection is what sets us aside. And what ignites employees on that Sunday night coming to the office on a Monday morning, because that one conversation could have potentially changed their outlook, their perspective, their perception of their life, and could re-course them in terms of what their hopes and aspirations and their vision is. So it doesn't have to be something extravagant, but it's really a genuine care and connection for each other that makes us all feel that we belong and that we can truly show up in our best way, regardless of our own biases and our own traumas that have impacted where we are today.
And where that leads to is a level of self-awareness. So the more you become accustomed with your traumas, your triggers, and your biases, the more you can catch yourself in that moment. Because you're very self-aware, you're like, actually, I'm doing that again. And opposed to responding, you're being proactive and you're in control of how you respond. So you're not a victim of your circumstance — you actually curate the reality that you want to design. And I think that is something special.
And, you know, Leah spoke to this earlier on — it's consistency. So how do we then consistently show up that way? And there are going to be days that we're not our best selves. There are going to be days that circumstances have controlled our emotion, because there's a genuine care and passion for what we do, or we're just vulnerable. And the question is, it's identifying that I wasn't the best version of myself today, but
Devandre Lawrence (24:22.008)
keeping to the aspiration that tomorrow I will continue being a better version than what I was yesterday. And I think the consistency over time allows you to keep your authenticity. It's the discomfort in every moment, because we evolve as humans. So who I am today is not who I will be tomorrow and who I was yesterday. And it's acknowledging that and saying, actually, I'm okay being uncomfortable because I know tomorrow will be a different experience. And if I embrace that experience, that discomfort will yield authenticity. And once we are all authentic as a community, that's when there's a sense of belonging. So for me, it's not a diversity programme. It's a personal touch and it's the element of humanity and unmasking and understanding that it's evolution over time. It's not overnight.
Leah McCrae (25:11.078)
I identify with so much of what you said there, and for different reasons. We have our different upbringings. And I must say, the topics that are close to me are belonging, loneliness, and also people's anxiety, death by suicide. And that all comes from a space of when I grew up.
I mean, I was so loved, but I came from a divorced family. And for me, I was embarrassed about that. And I always felt like I had people looking at me and judging me. So I then came into the workplace with those childhood traumas, and actually that's why I never worked for a corporate and why I started my own businesses from a very young age — because I didn't know where I belonged. And don't get me wrong, I definitely had a great family. But I created those avatars of myself. And then having depression as a teenager — it's so hard. And then coming into business, and when you're a leader and a boss, it is lonely, because this is where you need to know all the decisions, you need to show up all the time. So you want to be your authentic self, but then you have to put on the mask to be brave for everyone else.
And I think just being human in itself is quite exhausting, because no doubt this podcast is going to go out and so many people have an opinion. And everyone's going to go, she spoke about feminine and masculine energy in the workplace and spoke about depression — oh my goodness, she must be falling apart. And then you've got people that go, yes, I relate to that. So we're constantly having to show up for different people that have their biases, their own opinions on everything. But I think the biggest thing for me — what I've learned — is we can only make decisions, or we should only make decisions, from our very core strong value base. When you have to make these decisions
Leah McCrae (27:38.302)
in stressful times, you've got to pull those people that support you. I think at the core, if you know that you have the values and you can trust each other and trust yourself, that is the way you make these best decisions. Because we come into the workplace — and I'm 50 next year and I believe we all need a coach — and I've been in counselling since I was 19.
And it's just, you think you're growing and you're developing, and just when you feel like you've got it, there's something new. You know, I remember thinking at 33, I was like, I've arrived. Got my kids, I've got my business, I've got a husband, you know, and we were still married at the time. And I was like, I'm now it — you know. As of this morning going, what happened to that 33 year old? I thought we did all this work. I thought I had all the answers. And then there's just something new.
And I say to my kids so often: we're all just winging it. And we do have to be calculated and we do have to be educated and we do need the data around it, but we are just all winging it. And no decision is a decision. So someone has to make the decision. And if you make it collectively and you make it collaboratively, then you can move through it and at least just try. You have to do something.
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MID-EPISODE CTA
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Gilan Gork (29:15.532)
If you're listening to this and something in what these leaders are describing feels familiar — you know, that sense of being the one who's supposed to know while privately wondering whether anyone else at your level feels this way or feels this unsure — I think it's worth saying that what you're experiencing isn't a weakness. It's just how pressure does its work on us. When the stakes go up, your perception narrows. And that's just a natural thing that happens. It's not some kind of flaw. It's just what the brain does when it's under load.
You start operating from a smaller version of yourself and you default to what feels safe or what's worked before, even when the situation in front of you is asking for something different. Your thinking might get faster, but less clear. You might get reactive and less considered. And the gap gets wider between what's actually happening and what you're able to take in. And that all happens usually without you even noticing.
So that's the interference side of the equation that I mentioned at the start of this episode. Performance equals potential minus interference. And the narrowing, the reactivity, the defaulting to a smaller version of yourself — that is what that interference actually looks like in practice. The PEAK Practice programme is something I built specifically to help you clear that kind of inner interference.
It's a 14-day guided audio practice designed specifically for leaders. And its whole purpose is to help you reduce that interference under pressure so that you can actually access the capability and the capacity that you already have, rather than operating from a reactive, narrowed place. The programme and the exercises take just 10 to 15 minutes a day. And the leaders who've been through it say that the biggest shift isn't just in those big crisis moments, but it's in the everyday decisions where they used to operate on autopilot. So now they actually catch themselves earlier and they start seeing things that they were missing, and the positive impact of that compounds over time. So if that sounds useful and interesting to you, head to peakawake.com to join the programme and our leadership community. But for now, let's get back to this fascinating conversation.
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CONVERSATION (continued)
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Gilan Gork (31:27.734)
I love how you brought in values there. I think what you've just mentioned also speaks to having those common values of transparency and trust and communication.
Leah McCrae (31:39.854)
Pre-decision. And Gilan, it's the pre-decision — and I say that to my kids. You know, if your kids have values and they have a pre-decision that they will never take drugs, for example, when they are offered drugs or alcohol or in a bad situation, they will know what their answer is. And that is the same for you in business and as a leader. If you're very firm — and I'm not popular for standing in my values, let me tell you. It also comes with a lot of backlash, because you come from a space of strength, and yeah.
Eugene van der Merwe (32:19.724)
In times of crisis, I think we kind of find ourselves in the position where we have to ground ourselves in our values and ensure that we make decisions that are sound for us and decisions that we believe in. We've been through — and this is probably top of mind at the moment — a cyber event about eighteen months ago. And I've got a team that is absolutely committed. They will work themselves to the bone to ensure that everything is restored and safe, back up and operational. We run a fairly large business. Having to get everything done as fast as possible is always critical. But these individuals work for 24, 36 hours at a time, and you have to balance that as much as you can between time off, time on, and that critical deadline. And it gets to the point where the humanity has to be there.
There has to be consideration for the individual, because as much as they're committed and they will work as long as you ask them to work and restore whatever they need to restore, you've got to put that boundary in place. You've got to make sure that you are comfortable that from a moral standpoint, an ethical standpoint, you're absolutely doing the right thing for them as well. Because they will overcommit. They will overcommit themselves. And eventually they break. And that's the last thing you want to do. You want that cohesiveness and that belonging to be for the right reasons. There shouldn't be fear, there shouldn't be an aspiration to work for 48 hours nonstop and to achieve something that's almost unachievable. It should be healthy.
Gilan Gork (32:19.724)
I speak a lot with leaders around what we call environmental mindset cues. And one of the mindset cues in an organisation are the norms that we observe in not just our own team, but in other teams as well, and what those norms communicate about what is valued. And so it just ties back to what Leah was saying around having values — so that, as you so brilliantly and aptly put, in the moment you've kind of dug the well before you need the water.
Gilan Gork (34:36.342)
I think there's always such a line between trying to be liked versus being respected. And if you overfocus on trying to be liked, how that can be self-defeating in many ways. But I think this theme of consistency is coming up — that consistency will develop that respect. Just in the theme of owning a wrong call, because these are also moments where we have the opportunity either to build our trust or to undermine it. What did you do when you realised that you made the wrong call, and how did you rebuild trust with your team?
Leah McCrae (35:05.774)
I think with me, coming from a world of production, my first go-to is always just pulling people together. And I think where my strength has been is to pull the team together. The only way out of a wrong decision is honesty. If you cannot be honest with your team and say, guys, I've messed up here and I need your help — I need your support and I need your collaboration — because in this fog, I often ask my team to keep me honest. I often say, can you just — I'm testing my thinking on you? This is what I thought, this is what I want to do. Can you please just think — and I really want them to be honest.
It creates corridor gossip if you are not honest as a leader, because they see through it — and they're all human. And you then get employees that nod and they go, yes, yes, because now they expect that you want them to be yes-people, because you haven't allowed them to voice how they feel you should have maybe gone about it. Then they're part of the solution and you work together. So I think it just brings you closer and it builds bridges. And if you want a strong culture, you want people to walk out of that meeting going, wow, that was brave. She really owned it. And she heard us and now we can make a difference. And all of a sudden, the problem turns into a solution and they amplify it. All of a sudden everyone's behind you and they're working with you.
So that is really culture and trust. Otherwise they will talk about you behind your back and go, yeah, whatever. And they'll be sluggish in helping you find a solution. They're not going to go the extra mile. They'll be like, she couldn't even just be honest with us, so why should we back her? I think it's balancing
Leah McCrae (37:28.27)
transparency with honesty. I think the transparency is in saying, this is where we are, this is where we need to be. And where I say the honesty comes in is that not everyone can hold the information — it can put them, if it's a real crisis, into a freeze or flight. So it's discretion, which is also aligned with discernment — understanding your crowd. And again, then it comes down to knowing who your team is, who you surround yourself with. Because if you know that, and if your team is close enough to you, you do actually read your crowd a lot easier and the conversation flows. But if you feel like you're constantly surrounded by strangers in your own business, I think that's more where a leader would be tripped up. Because if you constantly have those honest conversations or constantly have the transparency, those conversations are a lot easier.
And my leadership style is the balance of these opposites. So you want your team to know that you will have a candid conversation with them, and it's sometimes going to be tough and it's not going to feel comfortable. But it was a two-way conversation — which is also sometimes difficult for your staff, your partners. But it doesn't have to be right or wrong. And I don't have to be right for you to be wrong. So everything is about building relationships.
I don't think the relationship that you have at work is the same as the one with your partner — obviously you have a more intimate relationship with your home, your family — but at work you still have a different type of intimate relationship
Leah McCrae (39:50.452)
with the people you surround yourself with. And it's about having that strength and vulnerability. It's about the candour with respect. You shouldn't be in a room full of strangers when you are making these hard decisions. And that comes down to how self-reflective a leader is. How do they really lead? Do they have relationships, or do they have strangers around them?
Don't share — goodness, guys, there's no ways to pay salaries tomorrow. As a leader you've got to go find the salaries and you just have to lose sleep by yourself. That's where the loneliness comes in.
Eugene van der Merwe (40:36.674)
There's an important component there. As senior leaders, we can't always share all the information. There are components that are confidential and for very valid reasons. And building that trust with your team and having them trust in your decision-making processes is a big component of that. Share and be transparent as much as you can, not necessarily compromising the confidentiality of some of the stuff that we have to deal with on a day-to-day basis — some of that being personal to other individuals or to the business. Those things are difficult and it's a fine balance. And it's discretion. It's not always easy. The closer you are to your team, the easier it does become, and the ability to communicate that just becomes so much cleaner in the process.
And from a personal aspect, owning a bad decision or a challenging decision — I tend to believe in the good of people. I believe people want to be the best they can be. And having a challenging individual, I always lean towards seeing what I can do to make it better, or get them to improve — coaching, mentoring, working with them. And in some cases, those individuals aren't there. It's not their journey, not their place at that point in time to want to develop or maybe to reflect on behaviours. And in the past I might have hung on too long. And it's damaged the team. And just being open about the fact that it wasn't your best moment, it wasn't the best decision you made, and you should have maybe acted earlier with some of the changes needed — those are difficult discussions, because it's people's lives, the individuals that they manage and they have an impact on. And from a cultural point of view, those things have an impact. And you've got to be so careful to balance when people are not performing at their best versus when it gets intentional.
Devandre Lawrence (40:36.674)
And, to add to what Eugene said — know your people. We all deem safe environments differently. So whether it be I feel safe in a boardroom, I feel safe one on one in an office, I feel safe in a walking meeting, I feel safe at the barista station making a cup of coffee — understand what environment creates psychological safety so that you can have an open and honest conversation. And that's when you truly get the most out of that employee and you're able to make
Devandre Lawrence (43:00.706)
clear decisions as well. So for me it's understanding — be conscious of the environment — but also destigmatise the labelling of mistakes, because often a mistake comes with consequence management and there's a negative impact and stereotyping down on the mistake itself. So for me, I always look at how do I support. It's rephrasing the question — not are there any mistakes, challenges, or obstacles — and it's more around how do we support?
Know your people and the environment that gives them psychological safety. It's okay to ask: what environment do you feel safe to have a difficult conversation? And that could be unique to each and every employee. But I think the intentionality around it is observed and felt by that employee — actually, they've taken the time to ask and they care. So that creates a psychological safety where they're more prone to opening up and having the difficult conversation. And then it's destigmatising the labelling around mistakes, because there's a negative connotation with that. And so rephrasing it and saying, shared responsibility — we are in this together — and creating that affirmation that it takes collective effort. So what support do you need from me to make this a success? And I think it's step-changing that conversation that gives surety that I'm not alone, I'm not an island, and I've got the support and I can lean on it — which then opens for cross-collaboration. Know your people and the environment that gives them psychological safety, that then opens up communication and honest feedback, and then you can make clear decisions in terms of what needs to happen next, without all the negative connotation and the stigma and the labelling that comes with the mistake.
Gilan Gork (43:00.706)
I want to do like a rapid fire — a 30-second answer each on a question I ask all leaders to wrap up these roundtables. What is the one thing — it could be a habit, it could be a mindset, an approach to something, anything — that has most improved your leadership effectiveness?
Eugene van der Merwe (43:00.706)
Listening to understand. Definitely.
Devandre Lawrence (43:00.706)
For me, it's always been know your why and keep to it.
Leah McCrae (45:07.278)
Yeah, it's teamwork and collaboration. There's a difference between bringing emotion to work and being emotional. And that is part of our humanness. And we just are all human. I only know how to be the Leah I am. And that also has to be good enough for others and myself. And I think — trust yourself as a leader. When self-doubt hits, trust yourself.
Leah McCrae (45:36.812)
Because we've seen more and done more than we've realised. And it's that instinct that sometimes gets us through.
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Gilan Gork (45:44.024)
Yeah, well said. Well said. You know what stays with me from this conversation is something that all three of our guests circled back to in different ways. The idea that you don't have to have all the answers to be a good leader — you just have to be honest about it. Leah asked a boardroom full of senior executives, is it okay if I don't know? And it turned out to be one of the most trust-building moments of her career. Eugene admitted to his team that he didn't have a playbook for leading through a pandemic where people's lives were at stake. And Devandre went to counselling, not because he was failing, but because he wanted to understand what was actually underneath the persona that he'd been presenting.
And I think there's something in that for any leader who's listening to this. The pressure to appear certain — to always have the answer — is real. But it turns out that the moments where you drop that act are actually the moments where real leadership begins.
Now, one of the things that I'm building with this show is a space where leaders can actually talk to each other about this kind of stuff that usually stays behind closed doors. So if something from this episode stuck with you, I would really love to hear it. Drop a comment, let me know what's landed. Let me know if there was a moment where you thought, I've been there too, or a question that you would want us to explore in a future conversation.
And while you're there in the comments, have a look at what other listeners are saying and reply to another leader. Share your own experience — because one of the things that came through clearly today is how much leaders really need to hear that they're not alone in this. And so the comment section here is a space where we can develop that community and connection and where all of these conversations can happen. If you could please subscribe or follow the show and leave a rating wherever you're listening, that helps more people to find these conversations. And of course we're always listening to your input — it really does help shape what comes next.
I mentioned the PEAK Practice at the start of the episode. And if you're curious, here's why it connects to what we heard today. Every leader in this conversation had the potential, the experience, and the capability. What made the difference wasn't learning something new or getting some new skill. It was getting past what was in the way on the inside — the self-doubt, the pressure to appear certain,
Gilan Gork (48:06.306)
the narrowing of perception and bandwidth that happens when the stakes go up. The PEAK Practice is designed to help you clear that inner interference so you can actually access everything that you already have — all of that potential — when it matters most. It's a 14-day programme, just 10 to 15 minutes a day. And you can head to peakawake.com if that sounds like something that will help you. Thanks to the three of you and enjoy the rest of your day. We'll catch up soon.
Gilan Gork (48:36.044)
Ciao. Thank you again for listening to Leading Awake. I look forward to seeing you in the next episode.