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Ellen helps Derek and Reed understand how to balance the interests of the employee and the system through flexibility. She also provides advice to young employees on how to contribute to their organizations.
Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
And it's another day and it's another day of Essential Dynamics, the format that puts a perspective on our lives daily and our lives in the workplace. I'm Reed McColm, your very good looking host and here with a special guest today and as well as our regular guru, mister Derek Hudson. Derek, are you feeling smart today?
Derek:So we've had a number of episodes with guests, Ellen, and Reed and I recorded one that was just the two of us again, and my comment was, it was kind of strange because I was looking for where's the smart person. So you're now the smart person in the room.
Ellen:Oh, okay.
Reed:So Ellen is Ellen Hollinger, we should say.
Derek:Ellen Hollinger. Ellen Hollinger is VP people and culture at Explore Edmonton, which is super awesome. And, maybe before I jump I I have a story to tell about Ellen, she's she's grimacing now because she knows how I tell stories. But, Ellen, just tell us a little bit about, how you got to be VP people and culture at Explore Edmonton, which sounds like maybe one of the coolest jobs anyone could ever have.
Ellen:Yeah. Well, so let's just say I never set out to be in this spot. I think, if I kinda go way back, the only thing I ever wanted to be ever in my life was a teacher, an elementary teacher, which I actually got to do, which was exciting. So that's how I started out my career was, in the education field. And then, graduating from university in the mid nineties when the economy was not great, jobs were not really available, trying to find a teaching job in Alberta was almost impossible.
Ellen:And so I was kind of at that point in my life where I needed to move out of my parents' basement. I should do something productive. I just got into the world of everything from hospitality to telecommunications, and I was really involved in a lot of operational roles. And my real, starting point, I think, was when I worked in the telecommunications field for about ten years. I was just learning business.
Ellen:I was learning what it was, and I got, to participate in a significant growth of that particular industry and just happened to land on the people side of the business recruiting, training, coaching. And that's where I found the love of people in business and people in systems. And then from there, went on to, further my education in HR. Fast forward a few years, landed with what was Edmonton Economic Development Corporation, EEC, and just kind of went from there. It was an evolving organization.
Ellen:There was a requirement and need to evolve practices and processes and figure out the skill sets that we needed to become, you know, an effective organization. That's kind of where my path went.
Derek:And that's where we met and Ellen and I had the privilege of working together for the seven years that I was there. But Ellen, this is a story I got to tell. I sat down maybe about this time last year. So we're in lockdown. I'm restarting my consulting practice.
Derek:I had this conversation with Bruce Alton, which we referred to. Bruce was on a podcast a few weeks ago. And Bruce said, Derek, you need a framework. So I'm putting my framework together and I'm thinking, how do I solve problems? Because I knew I had tended to approach them in a consistent way, but I don't think I really had it laid out.
Derek:So I laid it out. I haven't come up with this thing. The name essential dynamics came later. But I have these essential elements of people, path and purpose and this idea of opposing forces. So I know drivers and constraints.
Derek:We that was that was the the part about the path or the system. I come up with this idea of two maybe maybe conflicting purposes, purpose x and purpose y. And then I knew the people side was the other thing. And all I could think of was I need Ellen. In order for me to understand the people side, I need Ellen.
Derek:And I knew at the time that you had your hands full at work and that you had kids home, you know, from schooling at home. Knew everything was crazy and I thought, well, I'll I'll do what I can on my own. So I'm this is a long overdue conversation. And what I came up with on the people side, we talked a little bit about it, is the inherent conflict is the needs of the individual and the needs of the group. And I'm what I'm thinking that Ellen can help us with is Ellen is all about the people, but she's always been on the side of the organization.
Derek:And so Ellen, what have you learned about, I guess, maybe two questions from the from the organization side. How do you deal with the fact that these people all are, you know, autonomous and they have their own ideas? And and so let's talk about that. And then I'd Reid helped me. I don't wanna forget to ask what Ellen's advice might be to people who have to work in those big organizations.
Derek:Mhmm. So
Ellen:Okay. Well, there's a lot there. So let me let me see if I can unpack some thoughts. So, I guess what I would start out with is my experience, whether it be in restaurants, hotels, telecommunications, or now in a not for profit, is that, the organization or the operations needs to run. They need it needs to do something.
Ellen:It needs to produce something. So there's a system. There's a system that's being developed. The real tricky part is the people within it because if it was just the system, it'd be really easy, but people are what kind of complicate everything. And that's just human nature.
Ellen:I think the last few years has provided me a lot of really great insight because I was able I was given the opportunity to expand my knowledge and learning and leadership beyond just HR or just beyond the people element. I was able to lead highly technical units like finance, IT, business systems that I didn't have any knowledge about. I was not a technical expert. That really opened my eyes to see it all. It's all the same stuff.
Ellen:You need people to follow particular processes in order for the organization to achieve something. But what we often forget is that people come into an organization with very different experiences, different learned behaviors, and then they show up and then we sometimes assume that they're bringing bad behaviors with them or bad habits. But really, it's what they learned before in a different system. And so I think what's really interesting then is, as an organization, how do you set the expectations with what you need in your system? And that's that's, I think, a really interesting conversation.
Ellen:What I've come to realize is that there is no one size fits all policy or process. And as soon as an organization or management team or whatever takes that approach, there's always going to be conflict. Sometimes it's hard to get away from that, But I think what we've experienced is the more you can actually build flexibility and some allowance for customization, then at least you're setting the bumpers with the organization and allowing some individuality and some opportunity for innovation without going so far out of the realm of focus. And I think with that, that then triggers employee satisfaction, employee engagement, willingness to participate. But because at a management perspective, you're setting up those policies or procedures or whatever, you want to make sure that we're still hitting and within those that whether it be risk or whatever levels of assurance you need to ensure in place.
Derek:Hey, Ellen. This is, this is fascinating. Do you have any examples that you could share of where you built in customization and flexibility and still kind of maintain the the system approach or at least the guardrails that you talk about?
Ellen:Well, we're doing it in a number of ways. So as an organization right now, we are our mandate our organizational mandate is changing. It's becoming a lot more focused. So it's it's a it's an opportune time to revisit organizational policies that were in place before. So an area that we're reviewing is everything from expenditure policies to purchase card policies.
Ellen:It's not we can't have these black and white if this, then that because we're in a different environment. We have different needs. We have different stakeholders. Probably the most relevant one that we're just embarking on is what does a flexible work policy look like? And so we're in the beginning stages of actually drafting what an organizational policy statement might be.
Ellen:But recognizing we have such diverse business units and bodies of work that takes place, we're not going to be prescriptive in terms of who shows up, what times, what days, what office. It's actually going to have to be determined at the business unit level.
Reed:Ellen, if I could jump in here and ask a question. You talked about employees and being well, what I heard was how do you instill dedication in your employees? But moreover, how do you get employees to appreciate the product of the business? Not all businesses even try to get their employees to appreciate what they're building. Not assembly line worker at Ford drives one.
Reed:So I wonder how you managed with that challenge.
Ellen:Mhmm. Well, I think I think there's a lot to that. I think I think most most people nowadays or the trend is changing where and it has over the last few years, where people wanna be part of something bigger than than themselves. We see that that comes up in almost every single interview we do for when we're recruiting candidates. So with that, people have to have a sense of your value proposition as an organization in terms of what it is that you're trying to achieve and whether or not someone feels that that's they're able to contribute to something bigger than just themselves.
Ellen:So I think there's kind of a purpose based approach here. In terms of, kind of that dedication, once once someone has made the decision that, yeah, this is something that I wanna be a part of, that's where the real magic happens. And I think that's the tricky balance of trying to find striking the right balance of open, honest, transparent communication in terms of where we're going as an organization and get getting everybody's feedback, kind of that two way communication, and balancing out, like, at what point do you make that final decision? I think people want to be part of the conversation, and knowing when to start that conversation, sometimes earlier than maybe we traditionally would have as managers. We've got to open it up sooner in terms of just to ensure that people understand the direction that we're going.
Ellen:I think that creates that dedication and the willingness for people to participate and have their voice heard. We are certainly seeing that in this this remote work environment where we can't gauge temperature by walking past someone's office and seeing if they're frustrated. We have to ask the questions explicitly.
Derek:Ellen, I was going to I do want to talk about millennials because I know that's something you kind of have studied. But I want to flip it around to the question the other direction. So what's your advice to people who are working in big organizations or even medium sized organizations or who are students and are aspiring to get a job. And if it's young people, then yeah, by definition they're millennials. One of the things that we know is that they have perhaps broader interests and different values than the people who just sort of joined the machine back in the day.
Derek:So I think they bring something great to the workplace. Advice do you have for them, particularly if they're working in organizations that may not be as progressive as the one that you're building? You can talk to your kids if you want, if you can get them to listen to this.
Ellen:Well, I think it's really important, first off, to establish the fact that an employee, an employer this is a relationship, so it's two way. There's an expectation that both parties participate in conversation. And I think when I think back to my first job, I just walked in not really realizing that I really had a responsibility in that relationship. So I think that's really important, particularly for young people and any age, really, for that matter. But I think joining an organization, I think millennials in particular expect to be part of a conversation, whereas maybe years ago, you just showed you just did what you were told.
Ellen:There's a different level of employee expectations nowadays, for sure. And I think as managers, we have to lean into that and not resist it. But it's finding the balance of what's the appropriate level of involvement. Because we certainly don't want to get to the point where there's a sense of entitlement of being in every single decision that because that can get really tricky. But I think for new people joining an organization or wanting to get involved, I think participating in conversations when there is an opportunity for feedback, use the opportunity for constructive feedback.
Ellen:But I think on that responsibility side of things, I think as employees, things would move easier if we ask the right questions to really understand the why of the organization. I think there's just as much of a responsibility for us as employees to do our work to understand the why, whether it be the direction of the organization or why a decision was made or why a policy was implemented as opposed to just sitting on the sidelines waiting for something to be done to you. Try and be a part of those conversations. And whether it's one on ones with your manager or an employee engagement survey where you have an opportunity for feedback, put it in there. That's your voice.
Derek:So, Ellen, one of the things I would pick up and share with young people I've worked with is if you wanna give feedback, start with understanding questions rather than criticism. Mhmm.
Ellen:So I really I from a a mentor and some learnings that I've, taken away over the last few years is, what did it say? Understanding is not the same thing as agreement or agreement is not the same thing as understanding. I forget which way it goes.
Reed:They do work.
Ellen:Yeah. Yeah. You know, so it's yeah. You may not like something, but if you understand it, you can work through the process a little bit easier.
Derek:So No, go ahead Derek. What that makes me think about is advice to an employee is try to put yourself in your boss's position or your boss's boss's position. I know it's not that easy to do, but what decisions do they have to make? What are stresses that they face? And then in understanding that, you can be a more valuable employee.
Derek:And then when you want to give input, you can give input in context. And then if you want something out of it, then there's a value exchange as opposed to, like you say, entitlement. Mhmm. And that's a great skill that you can learn at a part time job and then bring into the workforce. Go ahead, Reid.
Reed:Well I just wanted to say that I thought that was a great place to end with Ellen's thoughts for today. I appreciate very much your joining us, Ms. Hollinger. I would like to get to know you better through these podcasts. If you'd have time to join us again, I think that would be you'd be very welcome.
Reed:Derek, what do you think is Ellen's strongest point here? What is her greatest asset?
Derek:Ellen's greatest asset is like she said, it's that ability to balance the opposing forces. She said we need to control the process but we need to respect that the people need flexibility. And I just watched her over the years just have real wisdom in being able to apply that. It's not easy. I know she agonizes over some of this stuff.
Derek:Like Lindsay Osmond told us a few weeks ago, you have to do the work. Getting it right isn't going to be easy because you got to do the work.
Reed:You know I keep hearing this over and over, we've got to do the work. This is just not a philosophy that is familiar to me, but I do appreciate hearing it now, and I so appreciate, Ellen, your joining us today. Ellen, if people want to get ahold of you for further information, how would they reach you?
Ellen:Well, they can probably contact me through our ExploreEdmontonwebsite.com.
Derek:At exploreedmonton.com.
Reed:There you go.
Derek:And you should all exploreEdmonton.com, especially if you don't live in That's right.
Reed:Derek, at the same time they're looking for you. Where do they find you?
Derek:Derekhudson.ca. Certainly open to responses, reaction and ideas about what we're talking about.
Reed:Sure. Well, for Bring Griffiths in the Studio, I'm Reed McColm, your gracious and very handsome host. And until next time, consider your quest.