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The Moonshots Podcast goes behind the scenes of the world's greatest superstars, thinkers and entrepreneurs to discover the secrets to their success. We deconstruct their success from mindset to daily habits so that we can apply it to our lives. Join us as we 'learn out loud' from Elon Musk, Brene Brown to emerging talents like David Goggins.
[Music]
hello and welcome to the moonshots
podcast it's episode 64 I'm your co-host
might persons and as always I'm joined
by mr. Chad Owen who despite a little
cold is ready to bring the heat good
evening Brooklyn you know me Mike I
would never miss a recording session of
moonshot goals be damned those damned
codes those damned codes well I mean
where with 2/3 through our brené Brown
special but we haven't given up yet have
we Chet no we're taking a look at her
latest book called braving the
wilderness and boy have we got clips for
you I think we called it down from about
Toni clips today there's always way too
many clips to include on on the show we
could almost have three or four
hour-long episode oh my gosh you have
thrown such a surprise on myself and all
of our listeners Chad recommending brené
Brown who I had no idea existed in this
world until you recommended
Brene and boy I mean these first two
shows that we've done it's been about
authenticity it's been about fun
durability and it's been about all these
things that we never talked about at
work and maybe a little bit at home I
find it it's like it they're so dense
and they're they're so rich to discuss
to consider to reflect upon as you said
we're not holding back for this third
one where we're focusing on her book
braving the wilderness and it's all
about belonging and I I'd love to know
Chad before you read braving the
wilderness by Brenda brown and you know
you maybe had a sense it was about
belonging
how did reading the book change your
perspective of what it means
belong I'm really glad that I've been
able to share Brunei in her work not
just with you with but with all of our
listeners I'm always just struck at how
counterintuitive what she finds is you
know in her research I think she's got
very strong opinions you know as you've
heard and in the clips that we've
brought on the previous shows and it's
fun for me to kind of see her go into
and do a lot of research around a
particular subject and then prove
herself wrong and I think she was able
to kind of prove herself wrong a little
bit about what it means to belong and so
we're gonna get all into belonging in
this show she's got a really cool
acronym around this word braving and
even you know go into one of my favorite
topic areas social media oh yeah and in
the joys and wonderful things that it
brings to us in this world right Mike
yeah it's so funny that that we have
spent so much time looking at successful
leaders both inside and outside of
Silicon Valley and trying to decode what
it is that they do and asking ourselves
how might we do it but in the process of
doing that where we've definitely come
out with a starker and a view of social
media particularly if you take Cal
Newport and brave round together I mean
there is almost the case for seriously
tuning down our social media use it's
it's it's such a good conversation to
have right now and that's really the
context of her book of braving the
wilderness it's so very timely I wonder
if we were to Before we jump into it
Chad if we were to set ourselves an
interesting challenge which is to ask
the question why why does this book and
why do the thoughts around belonging why
are they so important to talk about now
whether you're trying to create a new
product build a company or just be the
best version of yourself why is this
important to talk about now what's your
thoughts Chad I think that Brene in all
of her books certainly the ones that
we've
files here on the show in all of her
books she gives us a really interesting
novel perspective on leadership so I
think if you just kind of sprinkled the
you know the theme of leadership on top
of the past two shows in this show
there's a lot that people that lead
teams or people to just leave other
people can take away from this because I
think often leaders the best leaders or
maybe sometimes too focused on others
and in serving others and I think Renee
is asking us to look inward and be sure
that we're taking care of ourselves and
you know we're in a good place so that
we can lead others mmm better and I
think it's also just about building
cultures and creating environments where
people thrive you know by taking care of
them on this kind of emotional woowoo
touchy-feely level that many of us don't
like to talk about so that's that's why
I find all of her work so refreshing and
so applicable to do you and I on what
we're doing and and hopefully to our
audience as well yeah I think you've
said it really well I think we are in a
bit of a shift away from the Industrial
Age command and control style leader
we've had themes in past such as servant
leadership humble leadership I think
we're definitely seeing constantly I
don't know if you've seen the recent
news about the CEO of the hot startup
called away luggage holy has been cooked
incorporating stuff on slack and
publicly shaming them and it's such a
perfect news item that fits perfectly to
this book because brené Brown says you
know nothing ever good good comes
through shame and the bigger point I'm
trying to make here is I think where
we've reached a point where I think all
leaders now know that they need to care
for the people around them and I think
we're brené Brown stands alone is that
her work tells us that if we want to
care for others we need to care for
ourselves first and that's being
yourself having the courage to be
vulnerable and belonging to yourself
first
before you try and fit in with everybody
else so I think her topics are wonderful
and we've been talking a lot about the
previous two shows Chad where should all
our listeners go if they'd like to check
in on an old show get some show notes
check out all our social stuff where is
the destination that would be moonshots
dot IO you can also email us at hello at
moonshots dot IO Mike and I both get
those emails we love our listener
feedback through the interwebs you can
also find all of our future episodes for
our next author we are going to be
diving into but you'll have to stick
around to the end of the show to figure
out who that is okay let's get this
party started Chad oh and where do we
want to kick off a journey a deep rich
journey into our third and last book in
the brené Brown series its braving the
wilderness
what's the clip to kick it off we're
gonna have a bit of an inception moment
we'll have a clip inside of a clip here
but one of Bernays sources of
inspiration is my Angelou and this
interviewer is playing a clip for Brunei
and getting her reflections and it's all
about you know the big theme in the book
and what it means to belong you describe
in the book that one of the things that
provoked you in this concept of true
belonging that kind of lingered with you
was an interview between Bill Moyers and
the late Maya Angelou here is the clip
from that interview that she referenced
in the book listen well at some point
you own a free when you realize you
belong no place you belong every place
no place at all and the prices is high
the reward is great that's Maya Angelou
speaking to Bill Moyers in an interview
on Public Television back in 1973 and
Brene you said in the book that when you
heard that for a long time you thought
well that's wrong how can somebody
belong no place in every place and
something about that just raped you as
not making sense
yeah I'm feeling very teary I didn't I
didn't know you had that clip um yeah
it's a very powerful thing you know my
Angelo has always been a constant guide
for me in my life I discovered her 30
years ago when I was a poetry major for
a brief period of time and I ever i-i've
hung on every word that she has said
written you know just sang and just I
love her work but when I came across
this quote it out mean it actually kind
of pissed me off I was angry like I
thought how can someone so wise say that
true freedom is belonging nowhere
everywhere because as someone who's
always struggled with belonging I I feel
like I could mark my life by night
belonging from the time I was in
kindergarten high school college even
now I I really struggle with belonging
because I don't I don't find a lot of
other people who think like me or their
jobs look like mine and I start so I'm
like you know dr. Angelou you're wrong
it's it's the free there's no freedom
and belonging nowhere we have to belong
and it wasn't until I I mean and I it
made me angry because I liked as
aligning a hundred percent on all things
um but then as I started digging into
this research I there was a moment when
I was sitting with my husband on the
couch and I was going through a list of
speaking requests and I came across one
that said come speak at our church we
really like you we know you're down home
but you cuss too much so we need you to
change the way you talk because you'll
offend the faithful and I kind of felt
bad and I thought oh my gosh you know I
thought I belong there because I kind of
think of myself as the faithful and then
like two speaking requests later in the
pile it said hey we're super excited to
have you come talk to our company it was
a fortune 100 company we saw you speak
at this Leadership Summit and you talked
about your two main values being courage
and faith and we really loved that but
you need to not talk about faith while
you're here we don't talk about that
here
and I was like I looked at scene I'm
like oh my god I belong nowhere I mean I
I don't like my a leadership person
except actually most people don't notice
that I spend 90% of my time kind of
doing leadership development and culture
change work and so I was like I'm not
really a real leadership person clearly
and I'm obviously not a faith person
because I cuss too much I belong nowhere
and Steve looked at me and he said you
belong anywhere where you just go and
you do your work from your heart because
every time you do that you nail it and
you speak to people in a real way and I
said yeah maybe I belong know where I
belong everywhere oh my god wait I was
like oh my god that's it belong
everywhere and I belong nowhere the
thing that's powerful Joshua about that
interview is that the clip you played
with the clip that I played for my class
I actually read the segment to them but
I had never finished watching it and so
when I had this kind of Epiphany moment
with Steve I ran to my study and grabbed
my laptop and found the interview on
YouTube and if you keep listening bill
Moyer says so you don't belong anywhere
you don't belong to anything and my
Angelou pauses for a second and she said
I belong to Maya oh and I like Maya very
much yeah and I was like oh my god
that's it our level of belonging can
never exceed our level of self-worth our
level of belief in self our level of
belonging to self and when we have that
we carry belonging with us in our heart
who we shed Owen did you lead stronger
yeah
oh god damn that was that's pretty
bitter sweet symphony' there on the end
of the vine gosh I relate so much to
what she said then like to give you an
example and when I think about place you
know I was born in Sydney and grew up in
Australia but spent 16 years of my
career ten in Europe and six in the US
so I come back to Australia and they're
like jeez you sound and look different
jeez you have a different point of view
so you know yeah they say your son has
an American accent he's not even talking
like an oddly yeah so well Who am I am
an Aussie American a Dutchman an
Englishman because actually every single
one of those cultures look at me as
being well you're not quite from here
who's where am i from
so I think that's just an example and
I'm sure Chad this is resonant figures
like you're a bore you you are a total
Brooklynite but you're not from Brooklyn
real from Texas right yeah you almost
got a little bit of Texas twine they're
like Tejas so well then who are you
where do you belong right what yeah I I
think this is a universal experience I
think if all of us look back you know
there was some point in our childhood or
adolescence or teenage years where you
know we were frustrated with life in the
world and didn't feel like we belong to
anywhere and this hour that Maya
Angelou's pointing to owning that I
think is really special what Renee does
through her book is really give us some
of the kind of practical ways of
thinking about things even like a little
bit of a philosophy and how we might
better belong and kind of paradoxically
it's like by
belonging we're we're belonging and you
know it's kind of like the snake eating
its own tail sort of sort of thing but I
just love how to me how much I relate to
that story but relate to Bernays
experience but also my angelos
experience of just feeling like you
belong but also don't yeah and as always
Brene brown what we have marveled at
with her she took our Newports research
and data informed approach she was
taking this to a whole new level we in
fact this next clip she's going to get
into some of the thinking behind it and
really defining what real belonging is
so let's have a listen to brené Brown
talking about the research behind
belonging and perhaps even giving us a
definition one of the things that we
should definitely get into as we as we
continue our conversation with brené
Brown on her book braving the wilderness
is some of what you've learned through
your research about some of these
principles particularly this idea of
true belonging
now you describe yourself as a
qualitative researcher rather than a
quantitative researcher meaning you have
people kind of tell their stories and
you draw patterns from their stories
give me your definition of what you call
true belonging as you learned from your
research I it actually surprised me I
mean my research has attempted just to
kick my butt for about a year and a half
and challenge everything that I'm doing
in my own life and then I write about it
once I can see straight again and so I
always thought Trubel
I always felt belonging with something
we negotiate externally I always thought
it was about being a part of something
bigger than us and as it turns out true
belonging is very much a spiritual
practice and it's about belonging to
yourself and believing in yourself so
deeply that you find sacred both being a
part of something but also standing
alone when called to do that and I think
the thing that I love most about true
belonging is
when we really belong we're never asked
to change who we are we're at we would
demands belonging demands that we be who
we are and so for me the big AHA's in
this research were the fact that
sometimes true belonging requires
standing alone and that assessing
situations and groups of people and then
acclimating to fit in is a huge barrier
to real belonging
the fitting in as the barrier to
belonging is really interesting because
I would almost have defined belonging as
fitting in
yeah and that's where you called it out
at the beginning Chad how there's
attention in her insights because they
disrupt what you know to be true and I
think what you're digging up here is
just a classic example of that which is
demonstrating to us is that we make all
these concessions on who we really are
to try and fit in who's been part of the
crowd but our whole body of where it
goes to show love yourself accept
yourself for who you really are and
you'll find that others will love you
for that and actually the big compromise
is the attempt of fitting in yeah and
it's interesting even as I'm like
unpacking the language in in my mind
right now
belonging is a much more kind of like a
state of being and fitting in is more
like an active sort of word and so that
near the act of fitting in and changing
who we are makes it not belonging and
she says belonging demands that we be
who we are which i think is really
really interesting because certainly in
the work of context we can often find
ourselves becoming someone else when we
go to work and then kind of reverting
back or so is when you know when we get
home and I think even at work with
different groups or clicks you can be
you become someone different to fit into
those different cliques and so I think
for me this is just kind of telling me
to be a bit more mindful about how much
I'm fitting in versus how much I'm
belong I'm I'm I'm sorry they're like my
life as I mentioned geographically has
been in four different countries so
already I'm so acutely aware of fitting
in and belonging I think when we arrived
in am Sam in 2000 I think I may have met
five or six people that can everyone and
all of them were related to my job of
course and so I'm sorry
and perhaps that's why I relate to it a
lot but also in my own attempt and it's
nothing more than an attempt I wouldn't
say I'm any master at this
that what I discovered some seven years
ago is that I wanted to just be the
person that I was and do the stuff that
I love most and I didn't want to end up
being some exact way up the totem pole
in some monolithic advertising holding
company that that wasn't the world that
I chose for that wasn't me
and that has brought to me so much
goodness in life because maybe it's just
I feel more comfortable in my own skin
than I ever have I'm not saying I've
reached the point of view topia but that
was a big turning point in my life to
say you know what I'm just gonna try and
be a little bit brave and just do stuff
that I know is what I'm I'm born to do
mmm yeah and I think now as we move into
kind of the middle part of the show
we're gonna kick it off with a clip that
is kind of an encapsulation of the
entire book in one acronym so bear with
us here is it's a lengthy it's a long
lengthy but I think she is she's talking
about all the important kind of
attributes and values that we can become
more mindful of as as we're becoming you
know aware of what it means to to belong
and maybe not compromise so much but
here's here's Renee breaking down the
seven parts of braving braving is the
acronym we use B is boundaries you set
boundaries when you don't know what they
are you ask you're clear about what's
okay or not okay which is as you know so
hard for people yeah boundaries are
really hard reliability is the are you
do what you say and you say what you do
the big hard thing about reliability is
you're not hustling for worthiness
so you're not completely over committing
and not delivering yes that's a
reliability issue a is accountability
you don't back-channel and blame you
hold people accountable in a
straightforward way v which i think is
really interesting is the vault the
vault can we talk about the block first
of all the vault is so huge because in
this culture and in this time I say this
with my friends all the time like I'm
going to tell you something and it's got
to stay in the vault right it has to say
my fault
and once that goes if anyone violates
that and I've had it happen before
something shuts down to me oh it does
it's it's hard to come back from it yeah
what people don't understand about the
vault that's really interesting to me
too is that you call me in and you see
notes I don't understand why I got the
position you say look we've got some
trust issues that we need to work
through specifically I want to talk
about confidentiality in the vault and I
look at you like Marie I've never shared
a single thing that you have told me in
the ten years we've known each other and
you look back at me and say yes but you
come in here on a regular basis and
share things with me that are not yours
to share it's the other side of
confidentiality it is not only do you
not talk out of school between us you
don't come in here and say hey look I
know what's going on with John Bob all
you know this is what's happening with
you know so because when I do that and I
I do that to get connection with you I
do that as a bid for connection let me
tell you what's going on that you don't
know about but when I walk out of the
office
you trust me less because I'm using
stories that are not mine is currency
yes so we've got the vault then we go to
I integrity which is choosing courage
over comfort practicing your values and
this is a big one I think we have this
in common I love this about you it's
choosing what's right over what's fun
fast and easy yeah you know we have a
culture of fun fast and easy we have a
culture of people who don't do
discomfort and that I've never achieved
a single thing in my career or life
comfortably absolutely 100% yeah and
then we go to not in for non judgment
you can ask for help without feeling
judge and I can ask for help without
judging myself and then generosity which
i think is probably the biggest hardest
one for me sometimes which is when
something happens
and I assume positive intent so if
things go sideways between us
I like damn it Murray I'm so pissed off
I go and say let me assume the best
helped me understand what happened
Murray I thought we had a plan around
this yes and I give you a chance the
benefit of the doubt before I launch
into my anger yeah I think that one's
probably the most difficult for me as
well the one I can see where I instantly
jump to conclusions or I can watch my
mind go right to the worst possible
scenario I do with my family the other
night mmm is the question Chad which one
of these boundaries reliability
accountability the vault integrity non
judgment and generosity of those
acronyms of braving that all help us
belong better which one do you struggle
with the most
I think I straddle the line between
reliability and accountability which if
you know me might sound a bit strange
but I think it goes to the fact that I'm
an over committer right and so I will
often over commit it in all areas of
life it's like oh yeah I'll see you on
Friday night and then I'll see you on
Saturday and then I'll see you on Sunday
and then before I know it I turn around
you're excellent life it's like what I
forgot it's been any time with her you
know scheduling new time with the most
important person it's like and yeah
being being held accountable to to that
over commitment so I think um I think I
have a little bit of an easier time with
some of the others how about you I'm
totally non-judgement totally one of the
biggest struggles all my life is jumping
to negative conclusions about the
behaviors of others so one of the things
that I found in my journey was a quote
from the Dalai Lama which was not to
assume malice upon others and that was
the first time I had like a whoa and
this is something that Brenna talks
about a lot
what if everybody is is trying their
best like you cannot you cannot assume
that they're trying to make a mistake or
they're trying to underperform I if you
assume everybody is coming from a good
place
and so therefore rather than jumping to
conclusions and being negative very
judgmental maybe to just take a breath
and go okay I know that I know that they
this person has good intentions this
this thing didn't work properly or we
didn't deliver the thing when we said we
would let's let's approach it from a hey
I know you tried right and there's
another great saying around this which
is never judge a man because you never
know the battles he is fighting the eye
what I think was at the heart of those
is compassion yeah and you said the dial
Ummah and that's like the first word
that it comes to to mind and we have an
interesting clip here actually that's
kind of talking precisely to both of
those things that you bring up Mike as
as Bernays kind of elaborating on what
she means when she says you know setting
boundaries one of the shocking findings
of my work was the idea that the most
compassionate people I have interviewed
over the last 13 years were also
absolutely most boundary
because most boundaries they I'll give
you a great definition of the definition
of boundary that I use in the book
boundary is simply what's okay and
what's not okay what I think we do is we
don't set boundaries we let people do
things that are not okay or get away
with behaviors that are not okay then
we'll just resentful and hateful mean
I'd rather be loving and generous and
very straightforward with what's okay
and what's not okay I did not that I
learned from the research I was the
exact opposite I assumed for the first
thirty five years of my life that people
were sucking on purpose just to piss me
off that's what I assumed that Yeah
right
whether it was someone who worked for me
or it was someone who family member who
was constantly like I was always
critical and judgy and I was like why
are they choosing these things why are
they making her choices they should know
better and then when this thing came up
for my therapist what if people are
doing the best they can I thought my
husband had the most beautiful answers
that question
he said I'll never know whether people
are doing the best they can or not but
when I assume people are it makes my
life better so now I think I am not as
sweet as I used to be but I'm far more
loving
hmm hmm well there it is I sorta I sorta
kind of set that one up pretty cool but
look I think the the thing with that and
get in tune if for our listeners is like
if there's a new habit that you can
build here is just don't assume the
worse than others and the way I would
try and sell this idea to people is it
just cost so much energy to get angry to
get judgmental and to get vindictive and
invariably people who are unable to do
the right thing or people who are having
a challenge what what I would pitch to
people is when you enter into that
conversation in a non-judgmental not
assuming the worst mode you'll find that
you're actually able you'll have
permission to get to the heart of the
issue a whole lot quicker and get to a
resolution and a positive way forward a
whole lot quicker because if you do go
into these conversations judgmentally
well then the first thing the the other
person is going to do is put up the
barriers aren't they they're just going
to put up the defense yeah when I'm
taking away from this around boundary
settings what is okay and what is not
okay
is actually quite practical I've sort of
started to do it I'd say like in the
last two months I want to give a shout
out to Daniel Stillman fellow
facilitator out there turn me on to this
practice where essentially anytime you
get together with a team and doing any
kind of work whether that's something as
simple as a meeting or you're taking on
a big project just simply go around and
set some of your boundaries like what is
okay and what's not okay so for me it's
not okay for someone to be on their
phone when I'm having a conversation
with them and I'll say that so that it's
not a surprise when I get irritated when
I'm having a conversation with you and
you have your phone out and I mean it
can be very serious or can be kind of
very interpersonal it's really up to you
and your team's working style but I
think
at the beginning of any kind of project
or endeavor that's actually really
helpful exercise because in what Bernay
is saying is like that it just builds up
resentment amongst the parties and so I
think you can short-circuit a lot of
dysfunctions in a team if you just are
really clear at the outset what is okay
and what's not okay and just kind of
come to in and consent to - what is okay
mmm
yeah it's it's what a great tool at home
or at work because you know if you are
to use brené Brown stepping into the
arena things are not going to go exactly
how you plan so there's going to be some
problems there's going to be some tough
conversations so not assuming the worst
and setting that boundary is fantastic
but it kind of leads us towards these
ideas of generosity and integrity and
and and how we want to conduct ourselves
and I think it's so interesting to add
isn't it we find ourselves with
everything that Brene brown brings it's
almost like it's a door into more
thoughts more ideas on how not only we
can interact with others but how we have
to almost sort ourselves out first
before we can really be our best with
others mmhmm yeah so she's going to drop
another acronym on us but I think it's
it's elaborating yeah on the idea of
boundaries and how it maybe touches on
some of the ideas that you talked about
in braving so my question is big b.i.g
what boundaries need to be in place for
me to stay in my integrity and make the
most generous assumptions about you the
generosity can't exist without
boundaries and we are not comfortable
setting boundaries because we care more
about what people will think and we
don't want to disappoint anyone we want
everyone to like us and boundaries are
not easy but I think they're the key to
self love and I think they're the key to
treating others with loving kindness
sustaining you can't nothing is
sustainable without boundaries
[Music]
nothing is to stainable without
boundaries I think that's my favorite
part of that clip mmm and um do you when
you think about these boundaries let's
set ourselves this challenge if what
would our listeners do differently now
knowing what we know so far which is
we've talked about belonging is not
about fitting in it's about being
yourself and there is this braving
framework and we've focused a lot on the
be the boundaries what's the habit or
the thing that they need to do to adopt
in order to make this boundary setting
come alive I'll go back to my previous
statement I think we need to talk about
the boundaries more and make them more
explicit in unknown so if there are
things in the interactions that our
listeners have with others that don't
make them feel good then rather than
then holding those in actually share hey
you know when we're chatting can you
please put the phone away when we're
chatting can you pause the television
you know yeah I mean those are very
simple things but it could also be when
I'm talking please let me finish and
listen to what I have to say I mean it
could it could be stuff like that oh
yeah I love that one and you know
another one that I've I've proposed but
haven't quite gotten the agreement to is
like when I'm with some of my family
members agreed to not talk about another
family member when or family member and
their partner Ron when they're not there
right because that's that's interesting
because she actually talks about that
when you get something shared with you
that shouldn't be shared with others
then when you when you share that that
confidential or that those thoughts and
they're not in the room actually what
you're setting is a message to others
that I'm going to be talking about you
when you're not in the room mm-hm
and so it actually should which breeze
that distrust yes and so unknowingly you
might think it
fine because the persons not in the room
to talk about them but anyone else is in
the room and you're talking about a
person not in the room you're sending a
message to those that are literally in
the room you're saying when you're not
here I'll be talking about you yeah but
I don't want to loss over the one you
mentioned though Mike that when we're
talking I want to be able to finish
before you interrupt me because I'm how
many interactions is that not the case
like most of them probably oh my gosh
and it is and and it's it's it's about
being patient and what I've also learned
in all facets of life is sometimes
process of just talking it through and
repeating some things is part of people
coming to terms with the idea or with
the implications so so differently I
know we've got to talk it through again
because this is your way of getting your
head round it mhm but I might be like
yeah I got it let's move on but for this
person they just need to talk it through
they need to revisit relay the
foundation of the thinking before they
can move forward and I have a temptation
to like skip and not let them finish but
what I've learned is actually if they
need to go back and restate what I might
be saying this is the obvious they're
just saying I might know it but I
haven't believed it or I haven't
understood it yet and that's why they
need to talk about it and that helps me
shut the hell up sometimes yeah yeah I
think I think there's so many things she
gives a great definition of boundary
what's okay and what's not okay so just
saying one thing that's okay and one
thing that's not okay in that
interaction that you're having what that
person can go a long ways and again kind
of bringing it back to the team
environment for me it's not okay for
someone to not get a voice when it comes
to that particular meeting so even if
I'm not leading that meeting I will
point to or call on someone who's not
been able to speak maybe because someone
else has been someone else has been
dominating that conversation so you know
again that's another way to set that
boundary and say it
not only for someone to be silenced in
this in this particular environment
exactly exactly so how powerful like if
there was one thing on the show today
that all of our listeners can take its I
love this like what's okay what's not
fitting the boundaries is something that
Brene brown brings to life for us she
sets the context the implications and
Chad I mean we've only done the be of
the brave this distilled the right hand
rest unfortunately we don't have enough
time nor the clips to go all the way
through but we're kind of moving into
the consequences of not living into
these values and these attributes and
she even calls it a spiritual crisis and
I'll just play this clip but you can see
how she's got a really interesting
interpretation of the current zeitgeist
if you will and kind of explaining why
everything is kind of broken up into
into so many different tribes there's a
line in braving the wilderness I read
the book and there's one of the early
things as you talked about in terms of
the spiritual crisis we're in you right
quote the world feels high lonesome and
heartbroken to me right now we've sorted
ourselves into factions based on our
politics and ideology we've turned away
from one another and toward blame and
rage we're lonely and untethered and
scared so damned scared
unquote what's the connection that
you're trying to draw between today's
lack of civility and this sense of true
belonging here's the thing that I found
shocking is at the very same time we are
sorting ourselves into ideological
factions and bunkers and the research
shows that shows us clearly not just my
research but everyone who studies social
science shows that we are in factions
literally the way we live worship go to
school at the same time we've sorted
ourselves into these factions we are
becoming increasingly lonelier like you
would think the factions would at least
deliver on some good connection with
like-minded people but the truth is
we are bunkered up and lonely because
the connection that happens between
those bunkers is not authentic
connection it's what I call common enemy
intimacy we just hate the same people
yeah I had no intention of writing about
this kind of polarized culture that we
live in right now but as it turns out
you can't write a book on connection and
belonging without being really honest
about how difficult it is today given
the level of vitriol and
mean-spiritedness and so as I started
talking about belonging the research and
getting into it I thought you know when
I interview people today they always
talk about they always talk about how
hard it is because imagine if part of
belonging is the courage to stand alone
and belong to yourself first not to
betray your own ideas and values when
you're with a group of people how
difficult that's become in the last year
hmm well does she sort of capture the
zeitgeist right now particularly in the
US where everybody's is either red or
blue Trump or Pelosi impeach or not
impeach I mean it is that lack of
civility has come from the that that
kind of the conversation has descended
to who are our common enemies and let's
build factions around what we hate very
powerful very very powerful observation
it was hard for me at first to
understand what she was meaning when she
was unpacking the Maya Angelou quote and
that in belonging is belonging to
everything and belonging to no one or
nothing I didn't understand like how
belonging connected to you know to
standing or being alone but when she's
talking about these factions and how we
split into these bunkers as she says
that's actually when the when she said
bunkers the visual that came to my mind
was the there's this great
film called joyeux noël I'm probably
butchering the French is essentially
Merry Christmas but tells the story of
the French and the Germans in the
trenches in World War one where one
soldier starts to sing A Christmas Carol
and it literally brings the soldiers out
of their bunkers so that was just like
the stark image for me is that when
everyone's broken up into their factions
I think the ability or courage to borrow
one of her words the courage of a single
individual to go out and kind of stand
on their own share their own ideas and
maybe their own perspective that's not
just kind of telling the party line I
can have a really powerful effect in
moving but maybe if not moving those two
factions closer together at least
actually forcing them to to actually
communicate and connect with one another
so that that's where that's where that
clip took me yeah I loved it and what I
also like is like when you take on board
some of her other thoughts around
generosity and non judgment is it
already orientates you towards finding a
common ground at some point we're all
human so there you go there's a common
ground let's build on that what else we
got oh we like to enjoy a clean and
civil society great alright let's move
on we want to take care of the world and
the environment in which we live in okay
sounds good we want companies to kind of
do the right thing okay hey actually
we've got quite a lot of common ground
yeah and so I think that's the power of
the non judgement that if you just lean
into that a bit more
avoid assuming the worst and giving
giving people a chance I think that's
the way out but at pinpoint I think
exactly where we've got to the lack of
civility people have got in those
bunkers and I think the work that Brenna
is doing is showing us whether an our
work environment so in the office at
home or in society I think she's kind of
setting up for us a pathway in which we
can we can just be better at the thing
called being humans yeah I loved her
academic term the the common enemy
intimacy I know just another way of
saying the enemy
if my enemy is my friend yes but it's
very true
like those connections ring very hollow
if all you have in common is that you
hate someone else and how real is that
connection with that other person
because it's so adversarial and focused
on the others you're not actually
turning to and speaking to one another -
as you said can find your common grounds
very true very true but it doesn't stop
there we've got a few more clips to
bring it home we it's not all doom and
gloom we've entered our valley of
darkness and we're about to ascend out
of it and we're going to start with
reframing I think is best said how we
might think about some of the tools that
we are as society a little bit hooked on
the dopamine effect is taking place
we're getting our social media hit but I
think Brunetti Brown has some powerful
thoughts on how we might think about
social media and how we might set it up
in our minds and in our lifestyle as a
tool that we use so let's have a listen
to Brenna brown on social media Paul
emailed us how much does social media
play in this bunkering and lowliness
reality is being made by the biggest
mouth with the baddest attitude lonely
indeed I jumped off of all social media
so that I can enjoy life the way it was
when I was a child we met people on an
even playing field
Renee he's right I mean we have we have
started to use social media as a place
to process pain and communication with
other people is not the place we should
be processing pain and so one of the
things that I write about in the book is
that social media is great if we use it
as a communication tool but it's not a
connection tool
hmmm social media as a communication
tool not a connection tool and could you
imagine if we had town Newport and
brennick Brown in a room together with
us we could say look you guys are so
connected in your thinking right check
it out yeah I never would have suspected
it's one of the joys of recording this
podcast and doing all the research with
you mic is too unlikely thought-leaders
coming to very similar conclusions and
reaffirming conclusions now I thought
listeners are wondering about Cal
Newport you can go and find all out Cal
Newport shows on moonshots video or in
your pod catcher but I do really want to
share this tip having done that show on
cow it has encouraged me I have actually
taken all social media off my home
screen on my iPad and on my iPhone until
buried away in a folder and you will not
believe chat I think I use social media
less now by a factor of 70% less just
because I think it's when it's sitting
there on the homepage how can you not
say I mean you say ooh dopamine hit
click right what's happening click so
yeah but Cal tells you to delete it
entirely I would challenge you to just
to get it get it right off that
definitely this is where you and you and
Cal are on your own chat you guys are
hardcore your monks you're the real
monks amongst us I'm just I'm just a
halfway house on that one yeah I what I
think I'm allergic to the factions yeah
me too I I have it's it's it's just it's
too much for me and on the other side
you know the the famous young girl Greta
I even find that traumatic even just to
listen to to all of that regardless of
the message it's just now just doesn't
work for me I just find it
such a polarized conversation but Brene
brown head doesn't stop at saying hey
reframe the tool
I think she's encouraging us to speak
out real thoughts isn't she yeah to help
us understand what she means by
belonging belonging to nothing or no one
she has this idea of speaking truth to
BS which is a fantastic kind of Texas
sort of way to frame something but it's
actually much much deeper than that in
how sometimes the way we communicate
isn't even really acknowledging our our
shared humanity
so here's Renee talking about speaking
truth to BS speak truth to BS but be
civil and so when I think when we see
hateful BS on social or in person we
need to speak truth to it while
maintaining our civility one of the
scariest trends that I see right now not
just here but globally is rampid
dehumanization of people who we you know
every genocide and recorded history has
started with dehumanization and every
dehumanization effort has started simply
with language what we call each other
the names we call each other and
dehumanization is an it is a tool and
I'll tell you why we use it we use it
because we're actually not biologically
wired for cruelty toward each other we
are not wired for hatred violence rape
murder beating were not wired for it and
so in order to allow ourselves to do it
to be cruel to other people the first
step is that we have to dehumanize them
so we can push people we hate outside of
the circle of protected humanity and
what you see from the right and the left
right now are people using language that
pushes people outside of humanity and so
when I see that kind of stuff
on social I will just delete you hmm
because it's not a political debate it's
a debate about humanity what side of
humanity are you on hmm she's swinging
she's swinging but it's so true I mean
this for me is like all part of how you
can lead how you can belong in the right
way which is you know a common thing is
you may have heard the saying you know
don't drop to their level and I think
this idea of dehumanizing people it's
sort of breaking some cardinal rule like
we should always respect each other and
find common ground around the fact we
are human hmm and it doesn't have to be
quite as Extreme as maybe the genocide
examples that she's bringing up obviou
those are very important lessons to
learn but I think as we go about our day
to day oftentimes we like to lump groups
of people together
it could be oh the engineers or Oh
management or oh you know we kind of
label yeah group of people and I think
what she's pointing to is like the lack
of the specificity of the individual and
the person and the human mm which can
get lost when you use labels like that
and so for me kind of what I'm taking
from this clip I mean aside from the
fact that yeah there's some really deep
lessons to be learned about the language
and how it's used to dehumanize others I
think a bit closer to home for me is
like just be wary of labels that you
apply to groups of people because that
is also you know maybe to a slightly
lesser degree that's so it's still a
dehumanizing and D individualizing sort
of thing to say it is it is so there you
have it so we've got like social media
think of it as a communication tool not
as a connection tool and speak truth to
BS you know we are all people humans
moving bodies and always elevate the
conversation with that that braving
framework of boundaries and reliability
and so on so what I what I think with
- now as a point that kind of reminds us
that if we want to belong that really
kind of starts with being present inside
of yourself and being the person that
you are and then when you think about
sharing you as the person with the world
there's really important things like not
assuming the worst
and how setting the boundaries of what's
okay and what's not okay can set you up
for a better conversation and
particularly when you respect the fact
that we're all human hmm this is where
things really get moving but we've got
one last thought don't be Chad from
Brennan Brown yeah in the interest of
leaving us with some very practical
advice things that we can all go back
and apply in our day-to-day Renee is
just going to share a practice that
comes straight from the book that that's
one of her favorites and we'll leave you
with that same practice there's this
part from braving the wilderness that it
really changed me it's the practice that
came from the book and it is don't walk
through the world looking for evidence
that you don't belong because you will
always find it yes don't walk through
the world looking for evidence that
you're not enough because you'll always
find it are worse and our belonging are
not negotiated with other people we
carry those inside of our hearts and so
for me I know who I am
I'm clear about that and I'm not going
to negotiate that with you I will
negotiate a contract with you I will
negotiate maybe even a topic with you
but I'm not going to negotiate Who I am
with you because then and this is I
think the heart of the book then I may
fit in for you but I no longer belong to
myself and that is a betrayal I'm not
willing to do anymore I spent the first
30 years of my life doing that I'm not
willing to betray myself anymore to fit
in with you I just can't do it
yeah don't try and fit in because you
end up becoming the person that you're
not that is I mean there's a lot of big
thoughts in this book but that's gotta
be fair that's got to be right up there
doesn't it yeah to not negotiate who you
are but you thought but you thought you
were doing the right thing because you
were just trying to say the right things
we're the right things listen to the
right music just know the right people
yeah powerful stuff oh yeah yeah I'm so
thrilled to hear the reaction both from
you Mike and our listeners to burn a
brown I've been a fan boy of hers for
quite some time ever since I saw her her
TEDx Houston talk it's got to be at
least six years ago now and
unfortunately we know we only we only
did three of her books but I think it's
it's more than enough to drop some some
excellent knowledge from from brunette
to you and the listeners it's so cool
too because she's like yeah I'm like
this researcher on you know
vulnerability authenticity and I'm meant
to be the expert researching about it
but all her research provoked not only
new insights about the data and the
science but she confronted herself with
her own behaviors like it evoked this
whole personal journey she wasn't even
expecting and she's so open about it
that's what's so great she's just like
well I realized I wasn't doing half the
stuff I should have been how great is
that that that someone in her position
and her her status now is capable of
saying you know what guys like this has
been as tough for me as I'm sure it's
been for all of you yeah yeah and I
would highly encourage everyone to pick
up any of her books they're fantastic
you can start with the books that we've
profiled here on the show or for all of
your Netflix subscribers out there she
has the Netflix special it's very good
it's kind of like an extended TED talk
it'll make you laugh it'll make you cry
it's it's it's very good and we're just
going to continue on the author train
aren't we here Mike well it's hard to
get off it we get a lot of a lot of good
feedback which we really appreciate
actually one of our listen
is Ryan here in Australia sent me a
message just with the Roosevelt quote
mmm the man in the arena speech and
that's all yet to send me and I was like
I hear your brother I hear you brother
yeah it was such a great note to receive
and as we said in the last show we've
been getting a lots of people reaching
out either about Brene or cow and we
still get messages from listeners about
Simon's in it the heavyweight champion
of the show most popular men shot all my
vote of all time I don't think we'll
ever break that if we record to the heat
death of the universe yeah 64,000 100
listens that one's a bit of a
heavyweight but Cal and Brene have
inspired people equally it's been great
but I think we're going to do a little
bit of a bit of a turn a bit of a pivot
in where we're going we're going to go
to undoubtably
the la classics come on Chad where we
gonna get Jim Collins who I'm sure
you've all heard of if not him you've
heard of his book good to great or built
to last
he he's another academic type like burn
a while he's not in academia like like
burn a his approach is very data-driven
and the you know the case studies that
he has across all of his books are just
really fantastic and very widely
applicable so I'm excited to bring some
some very applicable learnings from
these case studies and the kind of meta
learnings that he draws from those case
studies and again what it takes to build
companies that last how to make make
them into great companies and then how
to have more purposeful companies going
after big things to be great by choice
so we've got three great shows on three
fantastic books from from Jim Collins
coming up absolutely and I want to share
with everyone that Jim Collins was
is easily one of the most inspiring and
informing business leadership authors
that I have ever read I mean good to GRA
came to me at a time that I really
really needed it and I still use so many
of their the principles from Jenkins I
can't wait together I really like him
and I know lots of you liked our show
because we are getting a ton of ratings
and reviews on iTunes I actually haven't
looked on the Google store I should
actually so I want to encourage everyone
if you've got this far in the show
you're a true survivor and we would just
encourage you to jump on your favorite
podcast
give us or her review give us some stars
because that helps others find the show
and we'd really appreciate it and as
always Chad loves a good email so what's
the email address chad hello at
moonshots dot IO goes just right into
makes in my inboxes yeah so let us know
what you're thinking and feeling about
the show what we should do next it's
been fantastic to have you all on this
three-part journey into the world of
Brene brown Chad we owe all of that to
you thank you for bringing Brent aid to
us are you going to spend what what
happens next so you can have a nice hot
lemon tea clear up the rest of that cold
what's what's next in Chad's evening I
don't know I've got I've been revisiting
a couple of Rene's books so I might I
might cuddle up with one of her books
this evening and finish it nice nice
sounds good well I'm going to jump off
to the office you're going to jump into
bed and we hope all of you our listeners
jump into some more Brent a brown and
get ready for Jim Collins on the next
episode of the moonshots podcast thank
you all for joining us
that's the wrath of the moonshots
podcast
you
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