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The Fanfic Writers’ Craft is a podcast that discusses all things fanfiction with a focus on the art and science of writing for the enjoyment of fan communities. Every three weeks, Jo and Blayne (otherwise known in fandom as @pebblysand and @nargles15) sit down for a fun, multi-fandom, fanfic-related chat and delve into particular topics such as: the particularities of writing and reading fanfiction, monetisation, how to build a fanfiction plot, etc. Hope you enjoy!
You can find us and contact us at: https://thefanficwriterscraft.tumblr.com/
Hello, and welcome to the fanfic writers craft, a podcast that discusses all things fan fiction with focus on the art and science of writing for the enjoyment of fan communities. My name is Jo aka PuebliSand and I'll be your host for the next hour or so. My co host, Blaine, writes online under the name Nargos fifteen. You'll meet her shortly. We hope you enjoy, but for now, buckle up, get yourself a nice cup of tea and welcome to the fanfic writers craft.
Jo:Hello and welcome to the fanfic writers craft. This is Jo. I hope you're all doing well. It is February, and this episode is probably gonna come out around Valentine's Day. So if you are celebrating, I hope you have a great time.
Jo:How are you, Blaine? How's things?
Blayne:Oh, you know, another beautiful day at the collapse of empire, Jo. How are you?
Jo:Yeah. Blaine and I just, like, spent fifteen minutes just, like, ranting about the collapse of civilization.
Blayne:Another beautiful day in America. I love it here. I was not sad getting on my plane coming back here from Mexico.
Jo:Yeah. Yeah. You were you were in Mexico for a few of the worst days, I think.
Blayne:Oh, it was so beautiful. It was so good. I was like, you know, if if if that little fucker was ever gonna close the borders, please do it while I'm down there.
Jo:Yeah. And he didn't.
Blayne:And he didn't. Couldn't even do that one thing for me. Come on, ma'am.
Jo:Yeah. My friend I was talking to a friend of mine last week, and she is set to have a work trip into, I think, Chicago or something in a few months, and she was, like, hoping that Trump would close the borders before that so that she didn't have to go.
Blayne:Yeah. Don't go. It's not great here. We all are, I guess, the the the only the only good is that we are just, I guess, dancing merrily on the lip of the volcano. So any any fellow Americans out there, I I feel y'all.
Blayne:We're we're getting through it one day at a time.
Jo:And to be honest, like, to my fellow Europeans stop acting smug because we're not that far from it either. Like, the AFD is at is at our doors in Germany. The format is at our doors in France. Like, I am a little bit annoyed at the tons of Europeans on TikTok right now being all smug about it. I'm like, we're not we're not that much better.
Jo:Like, Nigel Farage did his best score in the last UK elections than he ever has before. Like, we are not immune to this, and we're heading in the same fucking direction. So
Blayne:There's a there is a concerning global trend towards fascism that it that none of us really feel immune to. So what a time to be alive. Let's talk about fan fiction. So
Jo:without further ado, this is the news.
Blayne:Breaking news from the exciting world of fan fiction. So first thing for the news, a little bit heavier, sir. Just kind of a trigger warning for anyone watching or anyone listening. This is a podcast known as watching.
Jo:We
Blayne:I'm like in sweatpants, just like chugging six waters right now.
Jo:This is why we don't have a TikTok account, Jack.
Blayne:We could not have a TikTok account. I, I am incapable of of not being gnarly. But, yeah, we, so I know that this was a bit of fandom news that broke in January, but we'd already had slated what we were gonna discuss for our January episodes. So we wanted to make sure that we gave some space to talk about it because it it, you know, rightfully so, shook the fandom world. We wanna mention the Vulture article that was released in mid January, about the allegations surrounding Neil Gaiman.
Blayne:I just wanna go ahead and say that if you haven't read the article, it is a very graphic read. I found it to be some of the best, most responsible reporting around a a sexual abuse and, a sexual assault allegation. There's some really incredible work done by the author, whose name is escaping me. I'm sure we can put the the link to the article in the notes, you know, because Neil Gaiman alleges that the main, victim who is focused on throughout the article that it was a consensual BDSM relation. And since BDSM tends to be, you know, a bit more of a marginalized community, especially, like, in, you know, the kink world, there's a lot of fear mongering and a lot of misdefinitions around kind of what it is.
Blayne:And there is a lot of responsible reporting around safe, sane, and consensual and how, you know, despite what Neil Gaiman is is counter alleging, that that is not what those dynamics look like and that, you know, powerful, usually men in these positions will raise that it was a a consensual BDSM relationship sort of banking on preying on people's, you know, apprehensions or or misunderstandings around that kink. So I thought it was just an incredibly well written article. If you haven't yeah. Again, I definitely recommend checking it out. A lot of just also really great bits around, the psychology of being in an abusive situation and why people do stay and how that that is not something that we should victim shame or victim blame around.
Blayne:That that's something that's, like, potential that is quite common. So, yeah, just really, really incredible reporting. From a fandom's angle, I know that there was then a kind of an eruption in the Neil Gaiman fandom community. Admittedly, not a community that I am particularly a part of. I am a part of a community with a from a different standpoint, not a a alleged sexual abuser, but an an alleged not great person.
Blayne:I am still a part of a fandom around that. And so I know that that this does kind of get into a sticky question of, you know, still supporting fan works and and, you know, not necessarily supporting direct IPs with where the the money would go directly into the author's pocket. You know, this this kind of sticky question of this being something that was a a really important work for the fandom, a really important work for the fans potentially, and and also similarly difficult areas of their life. Like, a lot of people talk about how, you know, they feel felt and understood by by works like this. And then when the authors turn out to be monsters, how, yeah, how that how that starts to to to change your relationship to to the work and the fandom.
Blayne:And so, Jo, I don't know if you had any thoughts around this whole situation.
Jo:Yeah. I think for different reasons, everyone on the Harry Potter fandom has been through this and and this kind of reflection in the past few years. I am a very big and I've said this on Tumblr. I'm a very big proponent of not telling people what they should or shouldn't do and like or shouldn't like. I think the policing of people's artistic taste is a slippery slope that I don't want to engage in.
Jo:Like, if you wanna continue to read and and watch and enjoy Neil Gaiman's work, I will not blame you, and I will not judge you for that. I think it is beyond the question of, like, separating the art from the author. It is a question of being able to engage with things that you disagree with, and and people and authors that you disagree with in a adult and reasoned way. But, yeah, I feel obviously very upset and sad for, first of all, the victims of this man who have come forward. And I'm you know, my understanding is that people are like, multiple people have come forward as well.
Jo:And and we may we will probably see more Yeah. In the next few months. And, you know, that is as someone who has written at length about these kinds of dynamics and sexual assault and and coercion, I, uphold, and at the same time not really surprised. I think it is like, I understand people's reaction because it's Neil Gaiman and he had this, like, reputation of being one of the good ones. And and when that is the case, it's even more shocking.
Jo:But, you know, I think I think we move. I think the thing that I need I really want to say is that if his work meant a lot to you and you want to keep a relationship with that work, you are valid. And I have a lot of sympathy and I understand what it's like and what he has done, allegedly, quote unquote, does not mean anything about you. It doesn't make you a bad person. You're not guilty by association.
Jo:And, you know, you can but you can also sit with it. But I also understand the people for whom that has sort of severed that relationship and it's a hard sort of relationship to grieve when you really admire someone and they turn out to be a horrible person. I hope that the victims get whatever form of justice they're hoping for, and that's not necessarily legal justice. But I hope, you know, their stories are heard and also not forgotten because I think in recent years and months since Me Too, we have grown more accustomed to these stories, to the fact that they accumulate and that we forget about them. And that is sad.
Jo:So, yeah, that those are my thoughts about this, I think.
Blayne:Yeah. Completely agree. I think I think the the point of, you know, you finding your own comfort level with engaging with that work. I know that, you know, from a purse speaking as a a you know, from my personal relationship with the Harry Potter series and I was a didactic, this is what people should do. You know, once JK really really started going off the rails there, it it complicated it.
Blayne:It really did. And, you know, I I used to reread the books every year, and and I haven't in a couple years just because it it does have a bit of that sting. I still love it. Obviously, still very engaged in the fandom. I think fan fiction's been a little bit more easy for me to engage in by virtue of, you know, this is not something that that she herself put out.
Blayne:But there is that kind of taint to it, and I I wanna hold space for y'all people who go this was a significant portion of my life. This is a significant work in my life. This meant a lot to me. And to whatever extent, this is a a a relationship that has been changed kind of forever, and and I think there is a grief there. And so I think be kind to yourself.
Blayne:If you're, you know, a Neil Gaiman fan, come chat with some Harry Potter fans. We get it. We're we're here.
Jo:Yeah. We get it. We're there for you.
Blayne:We're here for you. And I and I wanna say also on your point, Joe, of of, you know, Neil Gaiman was someone who really, I will say Josh Whedon himself where it's it's he, purported to be a feminist and and an ally in that sense. And I think you see this coming out. We're just gonna hot button all of them. Send us all the emails.
Blayne:I think you see it with the, Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni, lawsuits as they're continuing to emerge of people saying, well, you know, oh, he was this huge purported male feminist and and this kind of want to overcorrect and say, oh, well, all male feminists are, you know, secret abusers. And I think that that's a little bit too far of a course correction. I think that, you know, the feminist movement, we need male allies. We need masculine allies. We need, you know, allies who who are in their spaces, who can help to bring other people into the movement.
Blayne:But I do think that that there is something to be aware of that just because a man purports to be an ally, let's maybe not look at his his words and more so his actions because I get the want to kinda being cautious around that. So an incredibly sticky situation Yeah. All the way down. Life is so fun right now. We do have a bit more of some fun news to bring the vibe back up.
Blayne:For all of my hunger games girlies, we got a new book excerpt that dropped again later last month with some really fun little, tidbits, for people who might not be in the Hunger Games fandom. One, start reading them. They're great. I assume everyone's read them. But we're getting a new book, and it's dropping at the March or March, mid March, somewhere in March.
Blayne:What are days? And we found out that poor sweet little Hamish's birthday is on Reaping Day. So his life sucks as much as ours. So I am very much looking forward to this book. I have my copy preordered at my local bookstore.
Blayne:So, yeah, if anyone's gonna be reading it who listens, feel free to to shout. I'll be reading along and you know me, I'm gonna wanna talk about it.
Jo:Yeah. I, I haven't read the latest one. I only read, like, the main ones, like, the first she like, the first series. I haven't read the, like, kind of editions and stuff, but, yeah. I I liked The Hunger Games as a whole.
Jo:I just found Katniss unbearable. I just I hate I hate her so much that
Blayne:I felt that
Jo:the the books were unbearable to me because her her narrative voice was just, like, unbearable. I hate her. I hate her so much. I am so glad to never have to read about her again.
Blayne:I'm done. I I find her, like, naively charming. Like, she's so and I think that I think she's such a good representation of, like, what it really is to be, like, a 16 year old girl. Like, I love when you go back and you reread as an adult and then, like, her little, like, oh, yeah. I don't like PETA at all.
Blayne:And then she's like, and his gleaming blonde hair. And I'm like, oh, sis, you're so gone. Like, I just I really enjoy the way that she is authentically a 16 year old girl and not the way that some You, most You, try and write from that perspective and either have them be, like, predator naturally precocious, like, oh, fucking annoying, or, like, so dumb and ditzy. Like, I I find she rides a nice, you know, a nice middle ground between being smart and also being 16 and, like, being aware and also being completely unaware. But I feel I feel she's our our girl's struggling in the narrative.
Jo:But it's not like, for me, it's not that. It's, like, her complete reluctance to ever understand that she's the symbol of a rebellion. I could say I
Blayne:could not understand that.
Jo:From day one, homegirl is, like, the symbol of the rebellion, and she just refuses flat out, like, the entire like, I'm sorry. She's a fucking coward. Like, every time she has every time she has a choice to make, she makes the, like, safe choice for herself and does not care does not give a fuck about anyone else.
Blayne:I love that.
Jo:Like, I just
Blayne:I fucking hate that. I think I think it's so, like, realistic, though. Like, I think that that Oh, yeah.
Jo:It's realistic. Like, that's why I'm saying, like, I enjoyed the Hunger Games books. Like, I think it's a good I think it's a good series, and I think it really shows something and it has something to say that the other books like that and the other, like, You dystopias don't say because that is a trait of character and that is a type of character that does exist in the world. And she is representing these people, but these people, I don't wanna read three fucking books in their heads. Yeah.
Jo:It just oh my god. I wanted to fucking slap her in the face. It's it's the entire time.
Blayne:I do find it so funny how many people are like, alright. We just need to be Katniss Everdeen and, like, go in the streets and fight Trump. And I'm like, truly, Katniss didn't even wanna be there. Like, okay. Like, yeah.
Blayne:You're like, get your bow and arrow, bitch. You're really gonna go do bloody revolution in the streets and you don't know your neighbor's name? Why don't we try and build some community first, and then we can start talking revolution? But, yeah, some new new Hunger Games book is gonna be coming out. The excerpt is online if you wanna read it.
Blayne:It's quite short, but it's very good. And then our last little news bit, Americans still have TikTok, sort of. So booktok lives on, which means that we get still a million and one hot takes, but also sexy death eater TikTok lives on, which is a terrifying place to be. And I'm afraid of my algorithm. It's if you are not on sexy death eater TikTok, I feel like my algorithm understands that, like, I am a nightmare, and I really like Harry Potter.
Blayne:And so it it dips me in and out of sexy Death Eater TikTok, which is, if you have not been to Harry Potter World in, Universal Studios down in Orlando around, Halloween, they'll do, like, spooky Death Eater night. And so it's all of these people, mostly men, who dress up as Death Eaters and prowl around and try and act all intimidating. But the BookTok girlies are, like, extremely turned on by this. And so they, they video the Death Eaters, like, prowling around and, like, asking them to get on their knees, and they put, like, sexy music in the background. So happy Valentine's Day, y'all.
Blayne:Go watch some sexy Death Eaters TikTok. They, we are not here to yuck anyone's yum, but that is my yum, is yucking other people. So go enjoy sexy tap eater TikTok Americans because for now, we still have it. So speaking of sexy, happy Valentine's Day season. I know Joe said that, we're not sure if this is gonna come on come out on Valentine's Day, around Valentine's Day, but, you know, our fat little Cupid can can be with us for the entire month.
Blayne:So in honor of Valentine's Day, let's talk about fighting. Because if your partner hasn't killed themselves because their earthly lust for you is so all consuming that they yearn to ascend to the spiritual realm to worship you like the immortal being that you are, I think you should start a fight this Valentine's Day. We were trying to pick a topic for this episode, and I saw that it was falling, like, right around here. And I was like, oh, we have to do we have to do writing arguments and fights. And so I am so excited to talk about this because this is something that I have been in my original fiction, I am, like, wading through, like, a million and one different fight scenes and, like, like, argument scenes.
Blayne:And so I have been thinking about this, like, ad nauseam. So I'm so interested to hear your opinions, Joe. So just off the bat, like, what do you think around you know, why do we include fights in our stories, and what do you think we should keep in mind while making the choice to include a fight scene in a work?
Jo:Yeah. Well, I think it's like I think it's like everything. Right? Fights fights are unfortunately part of our lives and, you know, who has never been in an argument before. And so I think
Blayne:Not me. I Everyone agrees
Jo:with me. I'm so great. And so I think, like, generally speaking, you know, that's probably why we have and we do include it in fiction is because, you know, it's part of life and and fiction is not a necessarily a realistic, depiction of life, but at least it strives to include all aspects of life. And so I think that's probably where, you know, the need for arguments and fight scenes come from. To me, one of the things that I try to keep in mind is that a lot of people are conflict avoidant, and so, fights might not always look like what you think it looks like.
Jo:Like, a lot of fighting that occurs in real life is not always this kind of, like, screaming match. And so, you know, you kinda have to think about that and kinda sit with that and think what's best for your characters and what's best for their personalities. So I think that's the first thing. And I think the second thing that I always try to keep in mind and I think a lot of people forget is that fight is not the tension. It's a result of tension.
Jo:A fight must happen once the tension has already existed for a while and you have, you know, a situation that's been brewing because people typically it's not that people don't talk things out right away. Like, a lot of people we have a lot of conversations that don't end up in fights, but a lot of times, like, those conversations don't end up in a fight because there's better dialogue, there's better communication, like, whatever. If you're going to end up in a fight, that means that there's been tension rising for a while. And so I think, yeah, that's also something that people need to keep in mind.
Blayne:Yeah. I think I absolutely agree. I think if you're if you're writing a fight just to have a fight, and by that I mean to insert tension into a work, like, your point that a fight is not tension, it is a release of tension, like, you're not like, the fight itself is and and we'll kinda get into this a little bit a little bit further, but, into the episode. But I had a great, you know, writing lecture that I I got to witness, a bit ago in my in in grad school where it was all about writing, sex scenes and writing arguments and how, like, similar those things are with, like, the building and release of tension. And, oh, it was it was a great, great workshop.
Blayne:But I think that, yeah, in in the same way that, like, in fiction, like, everything is about sex, but sex is about power. Like, when you are doing the fight, like, kind of the pre fight should be very, like, everything is about the fight, but the fight itself needs to be about something else. And I think that that kinda gets into the question of, like, what do you want to accomplish in this fight or in this argument beyond just the fight itself? Like, is there something that a character needs to learn, something that needs to be revealed? And I also do think that the kind of question subquestion from that is, is a fight the best place to reveal it?
Blayne:The whole, you know, like, and, you know, I slept with your brother. Like, does that need to happen in the middle of the fight? Do they wanna go into it knowing that? I think I think kind of playing around with how those two characters, because it's generally two, how those two characters are relating to each other and why you are selecting a fight for this part in both of their evolution. Because I don't think the same two characters that go into the fight should be the same two characters that come out of it.
Blayne:This is really a spot for for character development and for challenging, you know, their wants and their beliefs and not just, like, you know, in the in the way that, like, all good musicals, like, a song will, like, move the character and the story forward. I I it's not you know, the less successful ones are a bit like, well, we kinda needed a song here. Like, I think making sure that you as the writer aren't going, well, it kinda feels like there should be a fight here. Like, what what in the characters and what in the story and what in their development has really brought them to that point.
Jo:Yeah. I agree. And I think also for and this goes with fighting, like, with argument scenes and stuff, but I think that this goes a lot with, like, anything that has a lot of drama in it. So if it's, like, a character death or, like, a, you know, fight scene or anything like that. There's always this this quote that has been, like, permanently ingrained in my brain from Michelle and Robert King who were the, show runners and writers, main writers of The Good Wife.
Jo:There was a very big dramatic event that happened in The Good Wife in season five and they released after that episode came out, they released a letter kind of explaining their decision and why that decision was made. And there was this quote in that letter that said, we've always taken the stance in this show show that drama is not in the event, it's in the aftermath of the event. Oh, yeah. Obviously, The Good Wife is a very good example of that because the show starts for anyone who hasn't watched it, it's a political scandal and this woman is married to a politician and a politician gets arrested having sex with a prostitute and stealing public money from the government. But the show starts after that has happened and it's kind of following her life after that.
Jo:And I think that is a very good element to keep in mind and that's always something that I keep in mind and that's how I see a lot of my stories is like, okay, what is the event and what is the aftermath of the event and, you know, sometimes the character evolution doesn't have to always be straight away and it doesn't have to be in this, like, dramatic scene. Like, you need to really think about whether or not that dramatic scene is opportune in that moment. And if it is if you do need to have a dramatic scene, like, maybe the sort of aftermath of it is every bit as important as the fight itself. The kind of sitting alone on your couch playing it on loop and thinking of, like, the stuff that you should have said or didn't say and stuff, that that moment can be very, very important for your character as well. So I think another thing that you shouldn't quite, you know, discard is this idea of, like, okay.
Jo:What happens after my main fight?
Blayne:Yeah. Completely. So kinda and we're we're sort of already talking about this, but I think a lot of, like, what makes a strong fight scene in itself is, you know, how is it structured. And I don't know, Joe, if you have kind of a way that you like to structure, you know, not to take it from aftermath to, immediately back to the fight itself, but how you like to structure arguments and fights when you're writing.
Jo:Yeah. So I think, like, I'm I'm really a coward in this because I don't really like I obviously like everybody else. I mean, a lot of people thrive in it. I don't really like writing fights, because I always feel like my dialogue lines come out a bit stupid. So I like, if you read my world, you'll notice this.
Jo:Like, I I I I always just, like, focus on, like, one or two lines that the characters throw at each other which are, like, the main sort of argument. But then it's like they had to fight because also that's the way that I write. It's very declarative. Right? And so I kind of use the way that I write of, like, that they they have a fight.
Jo:And then I will, like, focus on, like, the one detail of the fight that I'm interested in, and I don't have to focus on, like, the whole escalation and the whole dialogue and everything because I don't wanna. Yeah. So I I mean, I'm probably not the best person to give advice on this, but that's that's kind of my technique is to, you know, not not not everything has to happen on screen. A lot of times I will actually write out the fight or I will write out a much larger chunk of the fight, and then when I'm editing, I will dial it down to the essential of what I really want the characters to argue about, and then I will just, like, have the narration sort of take over the rest.
Blayne:But I think that's that's such a good bit of advice and this idea of, like, use your writing style to your advantage. Like, you were saying that you are a writer where you're more, like, declaratively narrative. And so I think
Jo:Yeah.
Blayne:To read a, you know, several lines and lines and lines of a fight or paragraphs and paragraphs of a fight, like, that's not gonna feel as authentic to the work that you've written. Yeah. Whereas, you know, you can if you're someone who is like, I don't know how to get them to this fight, but I know that there is this line that I really want them to say. I do think that, like, that's the beauty of fiction is, like, in the same way that the, you know, the ubiquitous fiction, you know, advice is always, like, don't have your character, like, wake up in the morning and get their keys and drive to work. And then at work, they get fired.
Blayne:Like, just have them, like, sit and be fired. Like, you can just jump straight to the meat of the fight if if what we need out of it. And that's where I think the ask yourself, what do we need out of this? Is the point of the fight to be a you know, the characters are like, it is a character exploration. And one thing I think that does fighting really well as character exploration and by virtue of the medium that it's in, you know, you get all of it, is if you've not seen the movie, Revolutionary Road with, Leonardo DiCaprio and the fabulous Kate Winslet, it is basically just, like, two and a half hours, and these bitches fighting, like, on and off because it's just they're in this just, like, completely dead marriage.
Blayne:But but the thing that I think makes this movie so successful in its writing is how, in a sense, the whole movie is, like, one argument because it's one, you know, marriage completely collapsing in on itself. But it doesn't it has those contours throughout it, and each of the fights have these contours. Like, I think that you if you wanna do a longer fight scene, don't go straight to a 10. If you start immediately at a 10, you have nowhere to go. And so kind of in that same idea of, like, everything is about sex, sex is about power, like, there can be some foreplay to your fighting, like, in the same way that, like, fighting can be foreplay in itself.
Blayne:Like, look at Robin Hermione. But, like, I think that, you know, in the way that, like, good foreplay starts at, like, the beginning of the day. Like, know, are you paying attention to your partner? In the same way that I think, like, good fighting foreplay as a writer, like, are the characters kinda picking in each other? What are some little barbs they're putting in and out?
Blayne:Like, give you know, they're if they're hanging out at, like, a one or a two, they're really not fighting. Can you throw in a couple threes, maybe a seven, maybe a five before we really get to that big 10 when, like, things explode if that's if that's what you're looking for? Because I think it is a, like, you know, you don't wanna jump immediately to, like, caps lock Harry in order of the phoenix. Like, you wanna you wanna build it a bit. I think that there and that's that is Yeah.
Blayne:Kinda part of the part of the, like, pleasure as a reader is is getting to see how those characters respond and how they either escalate, deescalate, don't respond. Like, there's a lot that you can do with character in that.
Jo:Yeah. Agreed. And I think, you know, that kind of goes to my point about tension. Like, you don't have to have, like, the two characters together to build tension. You can also have, like, you know, someone kind of stewing on their own.
Jo:I I know I did I did that in chapter 19 of castles. Harry is injured. Both he and Ginny are kind of stewing apart and they're kind of like but they're not talking to each other. But he's kind of stewing because he is angry, because he can't, you know, he's in pain and he doesn't know how to deal with it. And then she is stewing because she's trying to hold it together and she doesn't wanna tell him to fuck off, basically.
Jo:And it's just like, so, you know, you don't you you can have also tension in other ways. You don't have to always have two characters, like, spat at each other. You can also use, like, different plots, different things that happen in your story to kind of build the fight up so that when it explodes, it explodes.
Blayne:Well, even to that scene in chapter 19 in castles, you take us to, like, an eight or a nine, and then you drop us down immediately to a five when Ginny leaves. Yeah. You know, she, like, can't pick him up. She's sobbing. He's upset.
Blayne:And then she walks out and you get this, like, beautiful, like, you know, when Ron comes in later and Harry's kind of resigned himself to just lying on the bathroom floor. Our poor boy. You get that, like, beautiful moment of, like, a lot of the the aftermath of the tension being off page and, like, the choice to not have that, like, be on the page, I think, adds a lot to it because we get to sort of, as the audience, fill in what that conversation really looked like. Like, you know, obviously, like, Ron, like, talks to us about it a bit. But, like, yeah, I I I think that you can really play with, like Yeah.
Blayne:What you include, what you don't include. To write a fight scene does not mean that you need to start at the very beginning of what starts the fight and take us all the way through and into to the very end of it. And they don't need to, you know, automatically the characters don't need to automatically jump in and start calling each other, like, bitch, bitch this. Like, we can we can we can build it a little bit. So kinda on building, one of the things I always think about is, like, what is, like, kind of what is, like, a spat?
Blayne:What is an argument? And what is, like, a full blown fight? And how do you kinda navigate those?
Jo:I think they're siblings, but they're not the same. I think the thing with, like, little spats and stuff is that, like, maybe one or two lines kind of exchange like that. A fight is maybe longer and maybe has more content that you need to get to and it has more of, like, a flow of conversation. Whereas probably the difference between a spat and an argument and a fight is that, like, the fight, I think you have to have some sort of resolution of it or if it's not a resolution it it has to find an end. So even if it there's not a resolution where like everything is okay and and I, you know, they they ride off in the sunset.
Jo:I think it has to find its end. Like, it has to find a climax and it has to find an end. Whereas like a spot, again, is kind of a build up to a bigger fight and it it's a one off and it doesn't really end. It just kind of subdues a little bit until the next one, if you know what I mean. I don't know.
Jo:How how do you feel about it?
Blayne:Yeah. I think that you could, like I I think that one can build to the other, which can build to the kind of final. But what I I love that you said that they're siblings because I think of spats as, like, what siblings do. Like, for all the people, who are good people on this world and have watched Severance, one of the one of the notes that, like, everyone talks about is how well Mark, Adam Scott's character, the main character, and, his sister are written. And there is oh my god.
Blayne:The writing for them is, like, the most real sibling dynamics, like, I have seen in media. There's that, oh my god, like, infamous screenshot that, like, goes around the Internet every once in a while where it's like, this is what it's like having a sister. And it's and it's, you know, the text conversation of, like, did you take my favorite shirt? Like, fuck you. That's my shirt.
Blayne:And then it's like, do you wanna go see a movie later? And they're like, yeah. Okay. Like, that's, like, I feel like that's so siblings, because there is that sort of comfort of, like, yeah. You're always gonna be around.
Blayne:But I love in one of the most recent episodes of Severance, the two siblings who, like, kinda spat and, like, have this sort of jokey relationship, like, actually get into a, like, fight at this diner, where, you know, Adam Scott's character basically just is like, we're shutting this conversation down and, like, really kinda comes at her. And then in the next episode, they're back to working together, And the sister makes this kind of snarky comment around, like, oh, you left me with the bill at that diner, you fuck.
Jo:Yes.
Blayne:It's and I think that that's what I mean by, like, you can gear shift through those to show dynamics. Like, again, throw it to Ron and Hermione. Like, they're not like, when are they spatting, spatting, spatting versus when are they, you know, fourth movie, fourth book after the, Yule Ball, like, fighting? When are they sixth book after Ron kisses Lavender fighting? And, like, what what does that show about their character and how they they, you know, choose to navigate between all of the the three of those?
Blayne:So when we talk about, like, fighting, we're obviously talking about, like, arguments. But I think we also have to talk about the thing that writers hate the most, which is, like, writing a physical fight. So why do we all hate writing physical fight scenes? Like, why does every writer be like, oh my god. I have this action scene.
Blayne:I have to write it, and I hate this. Why do I why do I do this to myself? Why do you why do you think we all hate
Jo:it so much? Well, I think your point about writing sex is a little bit the same. I think it's very right because I think we hate writing fight scenes for the same reasons a lot of people hate writing the sex scenes, which is that you have to describe physical movement. And a lot of the time, it's, like, very awkward and you don't and also, like, I think a lot of writers have never been in the fight before. So you're not writing from experience.
Jo:And so and so
Blayne:you're doing Hey, fanfic writer's craft writing tip. Go get in a fight and then go write one. We write what we know here at the fanfic writer's craft, and so get in a fight. Punch a Nazi. Write about the experience.
Jo:But yeah. So I think I think, you know, there there is that aspect of, like, god, I have to, like, write people moving and stuff. And and I think, you know, my advice is always the same, which is I always kind of focus on, like, one or two sort of big movements or big things that happen. I'm trying to think you know, in castles when there's this scene with, Harry who gets into a fight with Mia's dad. I usually kind of get ahead of the narration a little bit and say like, oh, they get in a fight or like he punches him and then kind of get to the detail of it.
Jo:I think that kind of helps me frame it because you kinda tell the reader from the get go what is happening and then you kind of dial it down to, like, the detail and, like, how does the punch land and what happens and then, you know, what happens in the aftermath. That's kind of my technique. I know that I found the sort of magical fight, the kind of magical battle with, when Julia dies very difficult to write because I don't know. I'm not a magic person. I'm just like, I don't know what the spells are.
Jo:Like
Blayne:Listen. Neither does JK. That's why Harry only used one of them. She forgot all of them.
Jo:And so, yeah, I think I think it's hard. But again, you kinda have to get through it. Like, I think you just need to kind of take yourself by the hand and be like, okay. We we need to get through this one way or another and just accept that it's not gonna be it's probably not gonna be your favorite scene in what you're writing, and that's fine. You know?
Blayne:And I think that, like, I do think that there is an element of, you know, again, going back to an old writing adage of, like, if you're bored, the audience is bored. Or, like, if you don't like writing it, the audience doesn't like writing it. I don't think that applies to fights because, like, I thought that the, you know, the the big magical battle scene where Julia dies was incredibly well done. But, like, I know you hate it right. And so I do think that there is an element of, like, because it is something that is so utilitarian, it might not necessarily be the most, like, incredibly fun thing for a writer to write.
Blayne:But I do think some things that can make it a little bit less painless are, like, if it's big action, keep it to simple language. Yes. Like, now is not the time to really be, like, you know, in florid language describing, like, the way the blood sheened on the cement. Like, unless you're really doing something specifically, like, I think that's it's a kinda get us through that action quickly. And what we all really remember about, you know, the Julia, fight scene and Julia dying is the aftermath is is Harry's reaction to it.
Blayne:It's not necessarily we're going, wow, the beautiful prose when they're, you know, firing spells at each other. Like, that is the utilitarian function. Yeah. I think of it as, like, dialogue tags. It's like the fight is the, like, there are four people talking, and I have to write, you know, Remus said, even though I'm allergic to writing dialogue tags.
Blayne:Oh my god. I hate them so much. That's a whole new episode. But, yeah, I think I think to your point of, like, blocking out a fight scene is give me, like, one or two big movements. And, like, in the same way as writing a sex scene, like, I don't need to know I don't need to know where, like, everyone's feet are at all time.
Blayne:But if we move from the bed to, like, the kitchen table or something, like, I'm gonna be confused if they're laying down and now all of a sudden they're standing up. You gotta you gotta give me, like, a couple like, we're rock climbing here. They don't have to be close together, but, like, you have to give me a couple footholds of, like, they're if we're doing, like, a magical battle, like, you know, the the the scene with Julia is, like, they're behind the desk. Now Harry's not behind the desk. And had you not given us that, it'd be like a, well, how did he almost get hit?
Blayne:Like, we're really just looking for kinda clarity here. And so how do you trim out any of the excess fat? Because I think people always forget that, like, at least me, readers, like, really read fight scenes, like, very quickly because, like, they're they're tense. And so you want to you wanna aid in that as much as possible. I think it's Tolkien who was, like he doesn't use any word in a fight scene in Lord of the Rings that, like, has an etymology before, like, the seventeen hundreds or something because that's something that, like, Tolkien knows off the top of his head because he was insane.
Blayne:But, like, but this idea of, like, simplistic, quick language, get us through the blocking, and then, yeah, what is what is that character aftermath? Because those quick little, a punch is thrown, a slap is given, a magical spell is fired off. That's not what is interesting. It's what built up to that and what comes after it.
Jo:Yeah. And, again, to my point in drama is the after if this is in the aftermath of the event. And it's funny the Julia scene, I was just thinking about it. I also do the thing where I give you the end before the thing actually happens. Like, I tell you that she's dying and then we get we get the details of how she dies.
Jo:And so, yeah, like, that's always what I do, basically. I'm I'm here involved, like, devolving all my tricks. But yeah.
Blayne:But I think I think in the in the POV that you write castles, it really allows you where, like, as if you look at we're a throwback to Hunger Games. If you look at Hunger Games, which is first person present tense, you don't have the luxury of, like, which I love the line of, like, Julia died that day. Like, oh, it's so and it sets it up and, like, you have that really beautiful part of, like, why we read tragedy, which is, you know, we're watching Titanic going, like, oh, maybe they're not gonna hit it this time. Like, maybe the boat's gonna miss it. Like, that is the beauty of tragedies and, like, a tragic event in fiction that that is set up for.
Blayne:But, like, I do think that, you know, how Suzanne Collins navigates action scenes in Hunger Games, if you are really looking for a, like, how to write quick, tight action where then the focus is very much, like, what the effect on the characters is after. That's something that can be
Jo:really good to look at. Yeah. One thing that I wanted to bring up and I wanted to kinda get your take on is Yeah.
Blayne:What's up?
Jo:The line where the argument becomes physical.
Blayne:Yeah. Yeah.
Jo:What do we think about that? That's uncomfortable sometimes.
Blayne:No. I think it really, really can be because it's it's in the same way of the, like, resist the urge as a writer to take everything kind of immediately to a 10. I think it really is a, like, you have to earn it going physical or it has to be a, like, really big part of the character. Like, think to, like, think to the scene in Prisoner of Azkaban where Hermione slaps Malfoy. That is something that, I mean, arguably, JK built from the scene where, you know, Malfoy taunts Buckbeak and Buckbeak attacks him.
Blayne:You know, Hermione, we are constantly hearing, is is spending all of her time that she doesn't have because she's taking, like, 82 classes at once. And, like, she's exhausted, and she's, like, trying, trying, trying. And, you know, she's she's it's her first time really bucking up against the legal system, which is insanely unfair and this, that, and the other, and the way that money and power and influence are, like, against her. She's incredibly young and idealistic. And it all builds to that tension point, and you kinda think she's, like, not gonna do it, and then she does.
Blayne:And I think that that physical violence, understandably so, makes people incredibly uncomfortable. But I do think that there are moments in fiction where it is, if deployed, you know, sensitively and intelligently and with a care, that, like, it is a part of our lived reality, like physical violence is. And I think that there is, you know, coming from kind of a righteous anger physical violence, like you see with with Hermione and prisoner of Azkaban. I think that you can then kind of get into, like, abuse dynamics, physical violence. That's something that's, like, incredibly difficult to write about and that cause you know, is is cause for a lot of need for careful consideration.
Blayne:You know, you don't wanna write the Colleen Hoover domestic violence book where we're what like, what a a sexy airport paperback about domestic violence. I know. What a great world we live in. But yeah. I think I think that it is it is something where and this is gonna be something we also discuss in the same way of, like, caps lock and exclamation points in an argument on the page.
Blayne:They can't be just hitting each other every other fight, or they can't just be, like, you know, physically engaging in something every other, like, every other page. Like, it's it's the same as, like, using fuck in an argument. Like, if they're just all, like, oh, fuck you and fuck that and the fucking fucking then we're just watching A Star is Born with Bradley Cooper and Lady Gaga, which is, again, great movie. But, like, oh my god. All they do is say fuck every other every other word when they're fighting, and it starts to lose its narrative power of, like, showcasing what like, who these characters are and what this argument is about and what this argument is doing for their character in the same way that, yeah, like, not being judicious with including when to include and when to not include physical violence, I think, could have that same dulling power.
Blayne:It starts to read a little, like, wump festy, which, like, we don't wanna get into.
Jo:Yeah. I think it's a conversation that you have to think about as well in terms of, like, who your character is and what you're trying to say. Like, when I was writing castles and, kind of thinking about Harry's arc. You know, I I had just reread the books, and I was kind of struck by how I'm sorry to say this, but Harry's a violent kid. Oh, he's incredibly violent.
Jo:And and with an understanding that part of it is due to his upbringing because, you know, the fact that he, you know, was probably, you know, shouted out and screamed at all the time by the Dursleys. Like, even if you don't think the Dursleys were, like, physically violent with him, there was a lot of unspoken violence in in the home. Yeah. And also the fact that, like, you know, he's constantly at risk of getting killed. But he is very violent in the books, and and his first method of conflict resolution is often getting his wand out.
Jo:And so, you know, I kind of had I I did a lot of thinking about that, and and that informed a lot of the decisions I'd later made about even, like, his career choice, his the the whole kind of arc of him, you know, finding a way to use that violence and, like, Hawk kind of seeing that and and using it a little to his own benefit. And that kind of culminates with the argument with James later on. But I think, you know, it's something that you need to think about. It's like, what is your character's relationship with violence? Are they a violent person?
Jo:Is that is that something that they use as conflict resolution? And as much as you feel uncomfortable or disagree with it, it's an important space to kinda sit and think about. And if you come out to the other side being like, oh, my character is not a violent person, then that's fine. Like, you don't have to write physical violence. But I think it's something that you need to think about, especially if you're writing a character who, you know, in canon has violent tendencies, and you kinda have to think about it and be like, okay.
Jo:How do I integrate this or don't integrate it in my narrative? And and where do we go with this? Yeah. I I completely, completely agree.
Blayne:I think that, again, it it all kinda comes back to to character and, like, how you see your character responding, like, in that moment and not just necessarily going with, like, what is going to be the biggest event in a fight or, like, what's gonna be the most kinda quote unquote shocking, but, like, always always always keeping it back to character. So kind of on a similar ish note, we've been talking about this a little bit. But what do you think about the case for leaving unsaid things unsaid? To fight or not to fight? That is the question.
Jo:You know, how do
Blayne:you know what to include and what to leave out Yeah. When you're talking about either a physical fight scene or an argument or or anything kinda in between?
Jo:Yeah. So as I said, like, I think that's kind of where I live.
Blayne:I do love it.
Jo:It's kind of like deciding what I wanna say and what I don't want to say. And and I know that Lanny and I have said this before in in different episodes in different context, but I do think it applies to fights fights as well, is silence is your best friend. Don't underestimate the way and the value of silence instead of a fight, instead of screaming. Because a lot of the times, like, if you think about it, times when we're angry as humans, we kinda go quiet and especially women. And I think and obviously that's a social, like, social environment kind of thing, but it is something to think about.
Jo:And I always have this, like, scene for anyone who's read it. Beautiful World, Where Are You by Sally Rooney. There's this scene that is that I cannot forget where I can't remember the name of the characters, but there's the scene where the main character, the main female character is visiting. So there's a house party. She's at this house party and her romantic interest, she sees him flirting with someone else.
Jo:And they have been kind of on and off for a while and she gets obviously very angry at that. And instead of having a full blown fight, which I think is, you know, your kinda knee jerk reaction as a writer, instead she just has this scene where wordlessly without even acknowledging the anger of the character, she describes the character, like, putting her beer down and then going down the stairs and then grabbing her jacket and putting her scarf on and leaving the party without, like, saying goodbye, without saying anything. And this kind of silence because I think we have all been there of, like, this kind of silence when someone makes you really angry either romantically or otherwise, and you just kinda walk out and steam angry, try not to think about it. And it's I always the scene is so brilliant, and I remember reading it and literally having, you know, feeling feeling like I was breathtaking by this. Yeah.
Jo:And just because you're kind of, you know what she's feeling and you but it's just actions. There is no reflection, no thought. It's just describing the action of her leaving the party, basically. And it's so brilliant. And I, you know, that was I didn't love Beautiful World Where Are You, but that scene is, like, absolutely brilliant.
Jo:And I think that kinda taught me that sometimes you don't need the fight. Like, sometimes the fight is the silence, is the leaving, is the kind of walking out, and and that is the fight. And and then they don't talk for, like, a period of time.
Blayne:Well, having not read that scene, but, like, I do think that in the hands of a less confident writer, that scene might have ended with, like, her slamming the door or, like, something. And I love Yeah. I love the idea of the pain and the betrayal and the the anger of that stillness because I think stillness can portray a ton of anger. To take it back to Revolutionary Road, which, oh my god, everyone please watch this movie if you've not seen it. It came out in, like, 02/2007 or something, but it's still one of my favorites.
Blayne:Where it's, you know, throughout the entire movie, it's this kind of constantly evolving marital argument. And spoilers for Revolutionary Road, which came out in 02/2007, so I'm not sad about this about spoiling it. And the final quote unquote fight, I love that you brought up going quiet as a woman, Joe, because the final fight is April Kit Winslet, her character going completely silent and acting like nothing is wrong and making making breakfast for Leonard after this huge explosive, like, she runs out of the house. He follows her. She's like, can't you just give me a moment to think?
Blayne:Like, she tells him that, like, she doesn't love him. She finds out she's pregnant. She says that she wants to have an abortion. And, you know, he's yelling at her about that. Like, it is this knock down, drag out.
Blayne:We are we are basically at a nine or a 10 for the entirety of this scene, and the whole scene just kinda comes to this. Like, it just dissolves. Like, they don't ever come to a resolution. It dissolves. And the next morning, she's just quietly making scrambled eggs and, like, asking him about his day, about, you know, the work that he does at his job.
Blayne:And he leaves, and she goes to give herself a home abortion, and she dies. And that's, like, how the movie ends. Like, it's a feel good film. Anytime I, like, text my best friend that I'm watching that, she's like, do I need to do, like, a check on you. And I'm like, no.
Blayne:No. I'm fine. I just like dark shit. But it's, again, too character and too theme. It's this idea of, like, marriage being especially nineteen fifties marriage being this, like, suffocating element and and the need to fit in in society being this suffocating element.
Blayne:And so the way that they that that the arc of this story brings us to, you think it was at a full 10 with the the loud, you know, raucous fighting that we're used to. The full 10 is the silence, and it's so brilliantly, brilliantly done. So, yeah, I think that you can't there are moments where, like, yes, I want that fight on the page. And, like, there have been instances where, like, reading that is really satisfying. But, like, I love to make the the case for, like, doing something stranger.
Blayne:Like, do something that doesn't isn't your immediate first thought. What would that look like? So we kinda mentioned caps lock Harry in order of the phoenix. Speaking of, you know, kind of pulling things back or leaving things unsaid, what are your thoughts about, you know, like swear words or caps lock or exclamation points, like, on the page in fighting scenes?
Jo:Yeah. So I think, like, swear words, I think it kinda depends your region of the world and your tolerance. I know there's a lot of lore about how, like, people in Europe swear more than Americans and it's less taboo. I don't really know if that's true or not.
Blayne:Not my friends. We swear like sailors. But I
Jo:think it's more frowned upon. Like, you know, I I've heard of people getting comments from Americans being like, oh my god. You wrote you wrote, like, fucking this scene and, you know
Blayne:Why are such Puritans? What is wrong with us? Guys, as an American, let's all just, like, loosen the fucking panties a little bit. Like, Jesus.
Jo:But I think so I think the swear words, I'm very liberal about it, and I don't think it's a big deal at all. And I do think, you know, in a fight sometimes, fuck is a punctuation almost, you know, when you're angry. I think the caps look thing, you do earn them but I also think, again, depends on your character because a lot of times, like, when you're writing teenagers, it's fun.
Blayne:It is.
Jo:It's really fun to use the cap locks because you know, like, when you're a teenager like, angry teenagers are caps lock people.
Blayne:Like Okay. Just just for caps lock Harry in order the Phoenix because there are, like, one or two instances where I'm like, most of the times, I'm like, I think he earns it. Like, I I think of I think of the the you know, where he's destroying Dumbledore's office, rightfully so. And you get the all caps lock where, you know, Dumbledore's like, this pain is a part of being human. And I still like, I can see it on the page of his, like, all caps lock, then I don't wanna be human.
Blayne:Like, what a painful thing to say. And, like, he's 15. Like, it's it's he caps lock in that moment. And I think that that's a moment where it's incredibly earned.
Jo:Yeah. No. I agree. And I think, like, you know, the the anger of teenagers and especially teenage Harry is very earned. And I think also you can kind of I mean, I was I was rereading, The Fault in Forge Manufacturing today not out of ego but because but because I, I have said it's on Tumblr so I can say it on the pod, but I am writing or planning to write the follow-up and the sequel to, to The Fault in Fold Manufacturing.
Jo:And I was reading and there's this moment where Aoife, Seamus's sister, screams at their mom and she's like, I am so sick of you. And I put that in cap block and then it says Aoife shouted back all caps and feet 15 mad and hurt and threatening to move in with Steven, her new boyfriend of the day. It's so And it's so teenage. Right? And it's like, of course, she's caps locking this.
Jo:And of course, it's like, I am so sick of you because That's
Blayne:so 15. You're not my real mom and you never will be.
Jo:And at the same time, there is an underlying truth to it that there that because you haven't read The Fault in Fortified by Shrink, but, you know, Seamus
Blayne:I know. I never will.
Jo:But Seamus's mom is obviously being a bit difficult, and and she's trying her best for her children, I think, but, but, you know, there there is a reason why Aoife is like this. But also, you know, she is caps locking in 15, and I think obviously, like, I can acknowledge it because that's the way I write as well. Like, there's this kind of double and tender with, like, the narration being a little bit self aware. And so because of that, I'm allowed to, like, be, like, caps lock and 15, which you are not necessarily if you are writing in a more conservative kind of tone and and kind of traditional form of sort of storytelling. Mhmm.
Jo:But I do think it's something to think about is sometimes stuff happens that is a little bit cliche or a little bit over the top. And sometimes acknowledging it in the narration is the way to go because you're kind of making a point. And here it's this point of, like, she's a 15 year old girl. I think she's 15 then. And she's just angry at her parents.
Jo:And that's, you know, that's the way 15 year old girls behave.
Blayne:I think that there is a way to if you're if, you know, the way that you're writing the story where the narration doesn't allow you to do that wink and nod, I think that, like, one of the characters can. So, like, again, bring it back to caps lock Harry in order of the phoenix when he first gets to, Grimmauld place and he's yelling at Ron and Hermione. And Fred and George come in, and I can't tell you how often I quote this. The line of, like, oh, Harry, we thought we heard your dulcet tones. Like, that's where, like, the, like, the narrative, quote, unquote, like, the capital n narrative is, like, kinda winking at it because the character's like, Harry, you're being a little ridiculous right now.
Blayne:Like and that diffuses the the kinda tension of the moment and, like, allows for, like, a little bit of that excess. Because it's like, oh, I as the writer, I'm kinda putting in these little, you know, winks and nods that, like, yes. I I am not the writer being in excess. It is the characters who are. And I think that that finding little ways to communicate to your readers that, like, if you are gonna do something where it's, you know, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck every line in an argument or a lot of exclamation points or a lot of caps lock, and it's not kind of big, large pivotal moment that you really feel like you earned if it's, you know, you're you're doing it for that little bit of, like, kinda wry character development.
Blayne:There are ways throughout the narrative that you can you can kinda wink at that. So any other thoughts on on writing fights or arguments, Jo?
Jo:No. Happy Valentine's Day, everyone.
Blayne:I'll say first something and this kinda gets into recommendations so we can we can seamlessly transition. Yeah. One of the things I find really helpful when I'm like, okay. I know I'm gonna be writing an argument, like, out on the page. I like to study plays because it's all dialogue, and it and I think it can really get because a play by by virtue of being a play has to sustain you through, you know, a long period of time.
Blayne:And one play, I think, that is, you know, essentially, like, one argument over the span of, I think it's, like, you know, an hour and ninety minutes is Blackbird. It's a Scottish play. It is I am so mad. I did not see this on Broadway because it was, Michelle Williams and, oh my god, Geoffrey so and so, who's on newsroom, the the Jeff newsroom. It was it's it's supposed to be incredible, and it is the story of a young woman who confronts the man who groomed and sexually assaulted her when she was 12.
Blayne:And it is them in one room for the play. And so it's just this constantly evolving power dynamic and fight. And it's it's the dialogue is so sharp and messy. And I think if if you wanna kinda get get the idea of what a texture of an argument can look like, I love looking at plays. Another, like, fight.
Blayne:I I again, I really like to go visual mediums for for studying arguments. A fight I think is done really well is on Friends, the TV show. It's season three episode 16. It's the one with the morning after, after Ross cheats on Rachel. They were not on a break.
Blayne:He cheated. Controversial opinion. Hot take. Hot takes on the podcast. And it's so well done, not just the way that Ross and Rachel's fight actually, like, plays out because it's a comedy.
Blayne:And I was I was watching some, like, you know, director's, you know, narration around it. And they were talking about, you know, how do we write two characters over that people will love over the course of, you know, twenty something minutes breaking up and have it be a comedy because this is a comedy. And so they they really intelligently have kinda two story lines, like, two prongs of a story line going at once. So you've got Joey, Chandler, Monica, and Phoebe all trapped in Monica's bedroom while Ross and Rachel are breaking up in the living room. Yeah.
Blayne:And they don't wanna leave because they don't want you you know, it's like, oh, it's kind of gone on for too long. We can't, like, go out there. They're gonna feel, like, really embarrassed. And then there's a moment where, you know, Ross is like, well, I was gonna tell you that that I cheated on you, but Joey and Chandler convinced me not to. And Chandler's like, Joey, whack the door shut.
Blayne:We're never leaving. And so it's it's their constant character motivations for them to be in these two different spaces. And so you get, you know, four characters listening to and reacting to their friends and or siblings breaking up. It's so well structured. It's incredibly funny when it's funny, and it is so gut wrenching when it's not.
Blayne:And it's they sustain basically one argument for an entire episode. And so I always found that one to be a good exercise in how you can kinda gear shift through an argument and the way that when you are having a large complicated conversation with someone like a breakup, it's not always one conversation. Like, you know each other really well. It tends to be kind of messy. There's this odd intimacy to it.
Blayne:So I always love studying, yeah, plays and and visual medium for that. So those would be my my recommendations for if you wanna do some case studies and studying arguments.
Jo:No. That's good. So I have to confess something. I am not a friends person. I have seen
Blayne:I so am.
Jo:I've seen I've seen some of it. Like, don't get me wrong. You know, it's always on TV. It's always on reruns. Like Oh,
Blayne:it's a bit gross.
Jo:Definitely I've definitely seen some of it, but I'm not the kind of person who's seen everything.
Blayne:My family, we owned all ten seasons on DVD, and we would watch. We'd start at season one episode one, and we would watch all the way through to the last episode of the tenth season, and we would start it back over again. I think I've seen Friends, like, each episode. No exaggeration. North of fifteen, twenty times.
Blayne:Like, it's it is it is My my it came out right around when I was born, and my mom's like, I used to nurse you to this show. Like, she's like, I I have watched it since the cradle. You know, like all comedies, it is aged, better in some regards than others. But, like, oh, I do have a deep love of it. But, yeah, I always found that to be one of their best written episodes.
Blayne:Like, it's it's really well done.
Jo:That's good. Yeah. I'm gonna recommend this is a recommendation that is that has a very small audience because, she's French and I understand if people don't wanna listen to French music. But Solange's new album, if you're French, if you know, you know. Oh my god.
Jo:It's so so good. And in terms of, like, righteous anger
Blayne:Is this the French Paloma? Yeah. Paloma?
Jo:She's kinda like yeah. She has Paris Paloma vibes, but yeah. It's a lot of a lot of stuff about the world that we live in and she has she has this, like, beautiful song song called Dwezo which is it's the story of a bird that gets killed by a cat and it's kinda like a reflection on its life. But it's just it's so beautiful. And it made me think I don't know why my mind went there, but I listened to that song and it made me think of, like, Ted Tonks.
Jo:And so now I wanna
Blayne:write a
Jo:Andromeda Ted fic.
Blayne:Oh my god. Please.
Jo:So, please. So, yeah, it's like it's like this song about, like, how the bird is like, I don't my my end, I don't regret it. I live to the kinda like I live to the fullest and the cat got me. Oh. And it's just, it oh my god.
Jo:It's so good.
Blayne:But anyway please write this.
Jo:For everyone to who speaks French, Solange's album is fucking amazing.
Blayne:We have one more recommendation to keep our Apple TV plus, sponsorship going since this podcast is brought to you by Apple TV plus. If you are not watching Prime Target on Apple TV plus, it is the greatest TV show I've ever seen in my lifetime. It is it is so perfect. I have no notes. It's like, what if Jason Bourne was, like, a sexy gay math nerd who did math too hard, and so now all of the governments and banks of the world want to snipe him.
Blayne:It's it is the most fucking insane thing I've ever seen with, like, the biggest budget. Like, I they are they are in, like, beautiful like, is it is it South Of France, Jo? Like, beautiful Yeah.
Jo:It's it's, like, South Of France, and then and then there's, like, it's supposed to be Iraq, but I think it's Morocco.
Blayne:It is the it is absolutely Morocco, and they're calling it Baghdad. They
Jo:No. But I'm like, I don't know if it's Turkey or, like, Morocco or, like, Tunisia. Like, it's one of it's it's somewhere in the Middle East, but, like
Blayne:because they are filming in the most like, whoever wrote this cocoa banana show to get Apple TV to fucking pay for them to go to the South Of France, you are my hero. Like, this show is in it is literally like this guy is trying to, like, count prime numbers, arrange prime numbers, discover he's trying to verb prime numbers, and no one really knows what the verb is. And there is a there's he goes to his, like, professor at Cambridge, and he's like, I wanna verb prime numbers. And he's like, no. Don't do that.
Blayne:That's silly. And then he gets this shadowy email in teal from the keepers at the keepers dot world that said, why are you not staying away from prime numbers? We had an agreement. I need every Joe and I are gonna make the prime numbers fandom. Like, I'm gonna start writing thick for this.
Blayne:I need every person on Beyonce's green earth to go watch this show because I need approximately seventeen more seasons of this bullshit. This is incredible. These actors are never allowed to leave. They are they are under fucking full contract. I need them at Camp Prime Target.
Blayne:They have to they have to only make me new seasons of this perfect, perfect
Jo:show. No. Yeah. It's one of those where it's, like, so bad. It's really, really good.
Blayne:It's so bad. And I
Jo:don't understand. Like, I I said this
Blayne:to you the other day, but
Jo:I was like, I don't know if it's, like, consciously bad. If the writers were, like, purposefully writing something that was meant to be so bad it's good. Or if it's, like, first degree, like, we meant this literally.
Blayne:I don't see yeah. I don't know if it's low camp or high camp. Like, I want it to be high camp. I want them to think, like, we got the next winner. We've got the new Jack Reacher on our hand.
Blayne:Like, Jason Bourne who? We have a like, there is a there is a part where, like, a woman who works for the NSA is, like, the greatest weapon in the new war will be mathletes. Like, it's just it's oh, god. Guys, I please, please watch this show. You're already you already have your Apple TV plus login because you heard last episode, and you're currently diligently watching Severance and Silo.
Blayne:So just add Prime Target to it. You have to see this show.
Jo:And and also, I need to add this. For any of the Europeans listening, there's Tsitsa Baden Knudsen. He's, like, an incredible actress. She was in this TV show, Borigan, a few years ago that, like, is one of the best political TV shows ever made. Why is she there?
Jo:I don't know. I'm like, Sitsin needed money. They
Blayne:got money, girl. Bitch was like, I want a boat. I wanna do this weird ass number show. Mama wants
Jo:a boat. But anyway, because she she's always in these, like, really deep sort of dramas that require, like, a lot of skill and a lot of acting acting and stuff. And I and I saw her and I saw her. It's like, oh my god. How is she there?
Blayne:I'm sorry. Prime Target is a deep show that requires a lot of acting. It is It's
Jo:a show that requires a lot of acting. That's just
Blayne:If it if it does not sweep next year's Emmys, I'm gonna make January 6 look like a parade. I need it to dominate. It is the greatest show. I need I need I need eight more seasons of shit. This is the only thing getting me through.
Blayne:This is my emotional support bullshit math show. Oh my god. So, yeah, watch Prime Targets and come chat with us about it because god knows we can.
Jo:Okay. Well, this was this was a really fun episode, to do. So, Nargos, where can we find you online?
Blayne:You can still find me an a f three at Nargles fifteen. The squib did get an update, so everyone buy some lotto tickets. Everyone buy some lotto tickets. I had a moment where my original fiction was frustrating me. So we went and rage did that instead.
Jo:And it was so good.
Blayne:Oh, thank you. We I felt so bad. It was such a long it was such a long gap. No idea when any new updates will come out because now I'm back to working on the original fiction. But when I inevitably ended up end up sending it out for for agent pitches, I'm gonna be going crazy.
Blayne:So expect more updates around then.
Jo:Yeah. It's time to catch up with the scribble while you still can.
Blayne:Exact yeah. Right. Before I file the serial numbers off and publish all seven chapters. Random house, I'm coming for you. All seven chapters.
Blayne:That's exactly what I've been doing, actually. My original fiction is just the squib. I've pre filed the serial song. But, yeah, you can find me at, Nargos fifteen on a o three, Be Telling on Tumblr, and then I am still on x. Come chat.
Blayne:I'm tweeting about the severance. So come chat with me there.
Jo:And I'm Pavly Send on Tumblr and a o three. You can find the podcast if you had any feedback, suggestions for topic for next episode. Our ask box is open. You can find us at thefanficwriterscraft.com. And if you want to help finance the podcast, you can head to co-v/thefanficwriterscraft.
Jo:This helps us pay for our hosting fees. Well, thanks, Emile. And Yes. Until next time.
Blayne:Till next time. Happy Z day, y'all. Bye. Bye.