The Honest Money Show | Fiat Is Economic Slavery: The Moral Case for Bitcoin

🎙️ Welcome to Episode 6 of The Honest Money Show

In this episode, Anja is joined by Neal Flesher, author of Modern Chains: The Invisible Shackles of Economic Slavery, for a wide-ranging and thought-provoking conversation on the moral and philosophical foundations of money, the destructive nature of fiat currency, and the liberating potential of Bitcoin.

Neal’s philosophical background shaped his understanding of economic systems, while his military experience instilled a deep sense of duty and discipline , both of which fuel his mission to expose the invisible chains of fiat and advocate for a more ethical, decentralised alternative. Together, Anja and Neal explore the ethical implications of currency debasement, the true nature of value, and how Bitcoin can serve as a path to individual sovereignty in a world built on economic control.

This episode digs deep into the essence of economic freedom, discussing how communities, relationships, and individual responsibility play vital roles in breaking free from systems of control. As Neal says, “Reality reasserts itself”, and that truth becomes unavoidable when one examines the failures of fiat and the promise of Bitcoin.

From the ethics of money to grassroots adoption, this is not just a conversation about finance, it is a call to reimagine the future of our monetary system through values, responsibility, and collective action.

🔗 Featured Links:

Neal’s book Modern Chains: modernchains.com
Neal’s X account: https://x.com/NealFlesher

🔑 Key Takeaways:

Neal’s military experience shaped his view on systemic economic control.
Modern Chains breaks down complex economic ideas through a moral lens.
Fiat currency operates as a tool of economic slavery.
Bitcoin represents a moral and ethical solution to fiat’s failures.
Currency debasement causes societal decay and loss of personal autonomy.
True economic freedom begins with understanding the ethics of money.
Building strong communities is essential for Bitcoin’s future.
The path to sovereignty requires personal responsibility and grassroots action.
Economic systems are built on intention — and Bitcoin offers a better alternative.

⏱️ Chapters:

00:11 – Introduction to Neal Flesher and His Background
02:54 – The Philosophical Journey into Economics
05:42 – Military Experience and Its Influence on Economic Understanding
09:03 – The Case Against Fiat Currency
12:05 – Understanding Bitcoin as a Solution
14:41 – Philosophical Foundations of Slavery and Money
17:54 – The Nature of Value and Money
20:43 – Debasement and Its Impact on Society
23:30 – Intrinsic Value and Bitcoin’s Superiority
26:50 – The Challenge of Orange Pilling
29:44 – Moral Philosophy and Bitcoin Advocacy
32:40 – The Role of Community in Bitcoin Adoption
35:42 – Conclusion and Future Perspectives
45:28 – Breaking Free from Chains
51:20 – The Ethics of Economics
57:48 – Bitcoin as a Tool for Sovereignty
01:00:22 – The Role of Intentions in Systems
01:04:18 – The Fight Against Fiat
01:09:25 – Building Community and Relationships
01:15:11 – The Power of Individual Agency

📌 About The Honest Money Show:

The Honest Money Show explores the forces shaping our financial world, from monetary expansion and policy to Bitcoin. The podcast features in-depth conversations with thought leaders, economists, innovators, and everyday people who challenge mainstream narratives and offer grounded, actionable insights. It is built on the belief that understanding money is key to understanding power, freedom, and the future, and that financial literacy can empower people to take control of their lives in uncertain times, offering a sense of agency in a world that often feels out of their control.

🔗 Connect with Us:

Subscribe for weekly deep dives into the world of Bitcoin and financial literacy.
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Disclaimer:

This podcast is for general information and educational purposes only and is not financial, legal, or tax advice. The views of the host and guests are their own and do not represent any organisation or regulatory body. Cryptocurrencies, including Bitcoin, are highly speculative and volatile. You should seek independent professional advice before making any investment decisions. By listening, you accept that all decisions are your responsibility, and neither the host, guests, nor the podcast accept liability for any loss or damage.

#Bitcoin #FiatCurrency #Sovereignty #EconomicSlavery #ModernChains #FinancialFreedom #PhilosophyOfMoney #NealFlesher #HonestMoneyShow

What is The Honest Money Show?

The Honest Money Show is your guide to understanding what money really is — and why today’s system isn’t working. Hosted by Anja Dragovic, this show cuts through the noise to explore how money shapes our lives, where it’s gone wrong, and what a better future could look like. Along the way, you'll discover how Bitcoin fits into the bigger picture — not as hype, but as a serious response to a broken system. Whether you're curious, skeptical, or already down the

Hi, Neal.

Welcome to the Honest Money

Show. Yeah.

How’s it going?

Good, good.

So, Neal, today,

Neal fisheries joining us.

He's the author of a book

called Modern Chains

The Invisible Shackles

of Economic Slavery.

And before we get into

the book, Neal, I wanted to,

start with you start

let let's learn

more about the man

I can see

at the back of your book.

You're a former army

officer and an age

64 pilot,

which I had to Google

to see what that is.

And you have a background

in art,

literature and philosophy

from the United States

Military Academy

and a master's in philosophy

from Holy Apostles

College and Seminary.

So let's let's

start with you.

I want to know a little bit

about your background

and what motivated

you to write this book.

Yeah.

So, I mean,

this I'm not actually

that interesting

and just, do the likes

philosophy likes to think

about how we think

and critical

thinking and, logic.

That's something

that's always been,

I don't know,

just kind of, of my interest.

And it was drawn me to that.

So, I mean, that's

why I studied,

but it really

wasn't until I, after

I got out of the Army

that, I started

to really have

to contend

with economic reality.

And I quickly

realized, you know, my,

my duties

and responsibilities

as a husband and a father.

It it made me

it made me realize

just that my level

of understanding

about economics and money,

just

it wasn't

sufficient to,

for me

to actually

fulfill my duties.

So being a philosopher,

I just was like,

okay, well,

I'm going to start attacking

this philosophically,

and I need to understand it,

you know, at, at a deep,

you know, metaphysical level.

And, it just, it just took

off from there

because, like,

I mean, I don't know.

Every day you transact,

you know,

you buy things, you,

you know, you use money

to, you know,

get the things that you need

to actualize your needs

to fulfill

your needs in life.

And,

you know,

being able to use that

tool effectively

is, was really important.

And,

I don't know, it's

it's just like it

really becomes this, like,

all consuming

kind of endeavor

where you realize, like,

the money's connected

to every part

of, like, human life,

in some way, shape or form.

And, so it's just like,

it's, it's a bond.

Philosophically,

I was just chewing on,

forever.

And,

the stuff

that I, you know,

came to realize,

about what

economic reality was,

that we're living through,

I mean, it hit me hard,

you know,

when we get into the

the basement

and all that stuff,

but, like,

being a leader in the army,

understanding that,

you know, you have to,

you know, direct action,

to get where you want to go

and, and

and bring people

along with you.

It just kind of like it.

This is like

the fight, you know?

And so I just

I wanted to share

my journey,

from basically

going from, you know,

not very,

I wasn't up to speed

with all the economic stuff.

And then through,

you know, the hours and hours

and the hard work of me

digging through,

you know, this

economic surface

to get at the roots.

I wanted to

I wanted to save people

a little bit of that work,

and and make it easier

for them to unearth

and to to under to grip

those roots themselves.

So that, like,

that's the whole

purpose of the book is to,

to try to,

you know, I, I, like I said,

I was digging

with a shovel like,

this book is

I hope to kind of

create this backhoe

type of a tool

that any person could just

hop into

and start, you know,

get at those,

those roots that what

drives,

our economic reality.

So that's kind of the, the,

the why

I wrote the book and what,

what I hoped

to accomplish with it

is helpful.

Yeah, absolutely.

I was quite surprised

because I've been trying

to get my dad to read

several Bitcoin books.

And finally,

the one that he's reading

is this one.

So it's it's really lovely

that, you know,

there's different,

things that appeal

to different people.

And my dad obviously likes

the philosophical lens.

So that's his

maybe his pathway

into Bitcoin.

But throughout your book,

I was reading,

as I read that,

you were in Iraq twice,

and if especially

like the second

part of the book,

I kind of feel

that your maybe Army

experience comes through

a little bit.

I can even now

speaking to you using words

like duty.

Do you think that

also influenced the book

quite a lot?

Yeah, I did,

because,

I mean,

so being in the military,

you have to,

you know, contend with

and understand

your mortality.

You know what

does it mean to be alive?

What does it mean to die?

And when you

put your life on the line

for something,

you know, I,

you want it to be

bigger than yourself,

you know, like,

that's kind of the step

you have to make logically.

So it's just like, I

understand sacrifice,

and I understand

that pain and suffering,

and it's worth it

when you're

when you're working

towards the right end.

And,

you know,

I did that.

I went and, you know,

I deployed

twice and,

it's like,

what did I risk

my life for?

My country, all these values,

these ideals.

And like, you come back home

and then you start

looking at the

monetary system

and you're like,

I got to provide

and protect my family.

And I got to make sure that,

you know, I'm

doing my part

to give them a better world.

And you realize

that the,

the monetary system

itself, this, you know,

and as we'll get into later.

But like this,

you know,

it's this, this

mechanism of control,

this extractive,

enslaving system.

And it's like

you talk about,

like a cause

bigger than yourself.

Like, what is the fight

like this?

This is the fight.

And it was kind of

came to this point

where it was like,

all right.

I mean, I was willing to die

for my country

and these things, but

what am I willing

to sacrifice

for this fight?

And it just kind of like

it was like, not even,

I don't know,

it just made me feel

so small.

Like, why am I not

at the front?

Why am I not leading

the charge?

Why am I not

trying to give everything

that I have to this cause?

Because this is,

in my opinion,

this is way, way

bigger than than

any of the know

the forever wars

and all that stuff is just.

I mean, it's

a symptom, really.

It's a

symptom of this

monetary system.

So I,

I want to, you know,

in a sense,

like, I,

I need

to do my part

to help destroy Fiat,

because fiat is the thing

that is doing the damage.

It is abusing us all.

And it's the thing

that I do not want

to pass on

to my kids.

Like I don't want my girls

to have to deal with

this problem.

And,

you know, it

kind of as you grow

from like young adolescence

and then you kind of

come into your middle life,

it's like everybody kind of

has that chance

where they're like,

they're they

pass the buck to you.

You know, where it's like,

oh, we'll just

go along with it.

You know,

let's just let's all

just keep pretending

that this is not

this is fine, you know?

And when it comes to me,

like, I just I'm not

I'm not going to pass it on.

I'm not going to say

this is fine.

I'm going to call it

what it is.

I did

the analysis in the book

to make

the philosophical case

for why this is not death.

This is not some,

you know, inefficiency,

economic inefficiency

like this is formal slavery.

It and it

we need to treat it

the exact same,

like in our normal

day to day lives.

You know, your neighbor

had some slaves

that would calls

that would cause

call you to action.

Like that

is something that is,

I mean, everybody recognizes

that as this abhorrent evil.

And you would reject it.

That,

like the money,

like our monetary

system,

it it warrants

that exact same

response, you know, so

it's like a lot of people,

when they hear, oh, slavery.

It's like

they think it's

like hyperbole

or it's

just like some clickbaity.

You know, analogy,

but it's like, no, it's not,

it's not a metaphor.

You know,

when you when,

when you dig down

and you look at

this thing philosophically

and you strip away

all the accidents

and you

look at the essence of it

like, what is its function

like the whole point of

of fiat

being able

to print the money,

you know, from nothing

is to extract the value

out of every dollar,

extract the productive

energy, extract

the work

of another human being,

and then direct it

for your own aims like that.

That is the

that is the essential formal

definition of slavery.

And it's like once

that clicked in my head,

I couldn't unsee it.

I could not unroll that

like I once

I had the category

in my mind,

I could not unroll

that consciousness.

And,

I'm just not I'm

not going to pretend

it's anything different,

you know, like, and that's

what it's for is just to

to make that case like, hey,

you know,

call it what it is,

you know, like,

and you can look at all

these different,

you know, fantasy novels

and stories and stuff.

There's like,

there's power to

naming something,

you know,

you call it by its name.

And, I mean,

I think that's true,

you know, like,

this is slavery.

This is the fight,

this is evil.

And, you know, we

we are the ones

that enable it.

Like, that's the

and I don't know,

like,

when you know,

the problem, like,

I didn't know

anything about bitcoin,

you know,

until I arrived here.

So like, I did all the things

the philosophical analysis,

I was diving into

all the economics

and doing all that stuff.

And I hadn't known

anything about Bitcoin.

So I was like, once

I had that,

once I had this, this

crystal clear,

you know,

understanding,

deeply

philosophical level of what

the problem with the basement

is and why,

that's

when I got to Bitcoin

and I just instantly,

you know,

I recognized it,

like for the solution

that it is,

you know, I didn't,

I didn't calculate,

you know, I'm not making

an economic calculation.

I'm not deriving

some formula.

Just say

Bitcoin is the solution.

It's like it's just a

it's a moral recognition

as a rational,

you know, moral agent

that every human being is

like we

see in those terms

and we recognize it.

So it's like, you know,

you don't have to calculate

when you look at your mother,

you know,

you don't have to calculate

that. That's mom.

You just you recognize it

and it's like,

that's what

I'm trying to

to to ask, you know, like

I want to orange

I want to orange peel

people like a node,

you know,

I want you to just validate

the logic, validate

the problem, validate,

you know,

small amount of work,

but you're still doing it.

But it's just like

you just validate

and you know, but

it's like

I feel that

what we've been doing

in this community a lot is we

we just hit the macro,

we hit people

with the economics.

Oh, invest in this

and in all the rates

and returns and numbers.

And it's just like

we're asking

people to calculate,

you know, so it's like

we're currently orange

peeling like a miner.

It's just brute force.

The this there's

this asymmetry

between

trying to convince

somebody

that Bitcoin is good

through an economic lens,

and trying to

convince somebody

that bitcoin is good

through this moral lens.

And, you know,

think

going back to

this military experience

like I think

strategically tactically like

how do you

how do you want to fight.

How do you,

position yourself,

so that you have

the biggest advantage

and your opponent

has the, the, you know,

the biggest disadvantage,

like you're

trying to maximize

that asymmetry.

And it's like,

that's it.

You know, you,

you hit from the moral

angle,

because it's the least

amount of work

from the highest point

on the battlefield.

And it just like,

you know, it essentially

makes them

it makes any, any opponent,

justify debasement,

justify slavery.

Like, that's an that's

an indefensible position,

you know, so it's just like,

that's that's how

I want to try to

convince people like,

this is how

we should really go about,

you know,

advocacy, Bitcoin advocacy.

I want to

rally the pitchforks

so we can go take down

this fiat beast.

And it's like,

so we have to orange.

But like that's part of

this strategy

is like

we have to get

people on board.

So it's like, yeah, I just

I don't want to do things

the hard way.

And that was like

the hypothesis of this

book was like, hey,

I'm going to leverage

this asymmetry.

You know,

just like

the Bitcoin network does.

I'm going to leverage this

and it's going to

move mountains.

Yeah.

I absolutely loved,

in the beginning

of the book.

You do a great job

of setting the scene.

And throughout your book

are really felt

that you were calling a spade

a spade

and not mincing your words.

You you call it

for what it is,

but you also do

a really good job

of explaining what you mean

so that people who hear

terms like slavery,

which you know, can get

a visceral reaction

in certain people,

you do a

great job of explaining,

what you mean by that.

And, and also you touched

on, like, chattel slavery

and how,

the essence of slavery is

the same no matter what form

or severity takes.

There's like an underlying,

things that

that makes all forms

of slavery,

slavery, essentially.

So do you

maybe want to, like, explain

that a little bit

better than just try to.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I mean,

so philosophically,

like going like this,

I went back to Aristotle

because that's kind of,

you know, what I studied

and what I know

and what I feel

comfortable with and what

a better place to start

than, you know.

You know, he he's

talking about these things

thousands of years ago.

And it's just like,

because he's talking

about human nature

and what is

the nature of reality.

And these things are,

you know, immutable

and kind of in

and of themselves,

like these principles.

So for Aristotle,

when we're going to define

something,

we're, we're

stripping away

all the accidents.

An accident

is something

that could be more or less.

It's not accidental,

as in like a whoopsie,

like a classic

example is like my height,

you know, it's like I'm 511.

I could have grown,

you know, there's no there's

no principle

that could have kept me from

being six feet tall or 510.

How tall

I actually am is an accident

of my being,

you know, or.

But then I have a height,

you know, that is

that is

an immutable principle

that is part of my being so.

Well, when we are

looking at something,

when we're trying to,

you know, define its essence,

we're we're stripping away

anything that could

be different.

And,

when you do that,

with,

we'll just take

chattel slavery, you know,

so it's like when you start

stripping away

all the accidents, you know,

like, oh,

they're in chains or,

oh, they're treated bad

or they're beaten or they're,

you know, they're sold.

They're just property.

Like, these things

can be different.

It's like, well,

what is the thing

that what is the essence of

what is happening?

What's that function?

And the function is

the extraction

of the productive energy

of another for,

you know,

you know, is

it's just like so

okay.

Well, when we look at,

our monetary system,

you know, we have,

this is also helpful

distinguishing here.

So when

we're talking about money,

we often talk about

value and money, and we,

we use them

kind of interchangeably.

And what was really helpful

for me was

this is also going back

to Aristotle,

like differentiating

between the matter

and the form, you know, so

this is kind of his

like idea of high

level morphism,

which is that

all of reality is a composite

of both form and matter.

So what the takeaway of that

is that

if you do not have a high,

low morphic answer

for something,

then you're

not actually addressing it

for how it is in reality,

you're addressing it.

You know,

just some like speculative

fantasy or something

like that, you know,

like it's just in your head.

It's not in reality.

So I need to have

a high, low morphic

answer for everything.

So when

we're talking about money,

we say, okay,

well what's its matter

and what's its form?

Well, the form is like its

immaterial functions.

It's a, you know,

that Aristotle,

thousands of years

ago, was talking

meaning of exchange

Store of value,

unit of account

like those or money

is primary functions

with the medium of exchange

being like its essence.

Like that is the thing

that brings it

into existence.

Like it's

the act of two people

using a object

to transfer value

between themselves.

That creates money, you know?

So it's like money.

Is this weird?

Also kind of

subjective, objective thing,

like it is an object,

that has to have

the potential, the power

to carry out

those monetary functions.

But it takes people

creating it, you know?

So it's like,

if we didn't have any people

on the world, there would

be no money like it.

So it's like that.

And that's something

that kind of confuses people

when they're talking

about money and economics,

because there's a

there's a value

and they'll say dollars

and they're talking

about the object

or they're talking

about the value

that's inside of it.

So it's like,

it was really helpful for me

to just

be able to understand, like,

am I talking about the OP,

the monetary object,

this capsule, this thing

that I can store

energy inside?

Or am I talking about

the creation of that value,

the creation of the

productive work?

You know,

the that

I'm putting into the money?

So it's like

with those two things

kind of together,

it makes it real.

It makes it really easy

to see

what's happening

with the basement.

So I with my

life, with my work,

I am creating value

in the world.

And then I can store

that value

inside that monetary

object.

And it's to preserve

and protect.

And let me transfer it

between, well,

what debasement does

is when they're

creating more monetary

objects, they're empty.

They have no like

that's not

creating more value

in the world,

but they're creating

these monetary objects

that are empty,

but they're treated

equally as to the objects

that are already

in existence.

So what that does

is that equalizes

all of the value

throughout

all those new monetary

objects to.

So it's extracting value

out of the monetary objects

that exist

into the newly created ones.

So like that's, that's the

like the technical mechanism

for why

this is exactly slavery.

It's the extraction,

you know,

like when,

when they debase the money,

they are enslaving

every single

holder of a dollar, you know.

So it's like, well,

how do you

how do you prevent

that from happening?

When you pull the siphon

out from your

monetary object,

you find a new

monetary object

that they can't debase.

And that's,

you know, when

you see, like, oh,

that's the problem.

How do I solve

for debasement?

How do I protect myself

from being debased

from being enslaved

into Bitcoin?

And it's just like, duh.

Like there's like that

is the thing that

and if you can just

that's like

the smallest

little recognition

that like that's

what Bitcoin does.

It prevents

you from being enslaved

or whatever value

I create in the world.

And I put into Bitcoin,

no one can siphon

that out from me.

Like that's mine forever.

That slice of,

you know

the 21 million is

is mine.

Yeah.

No one can take it

unless I give it to them.

Yeah,

like true property

ownership in that sense.

I love the part of your book

where you were talking about,

like,

economics, essentially,

but through

a philosophical lens,

because the various

different books

that I've read from,

like little in olden

and Soviet in a moose,

they talk about,

all of these things, but

from like a different lens.

And I found it

very interesting

to read your take

on things like,

quantitative easing or,

fractional reserve

banking or all of those.

And, and one thing

in particular

that I remember blew my mind

was, the section

where you spoke

about, debt

being both a liability

and an asset,

and that is just like,

I mean, I knew over,

but I never thought about

until I read the book

as deeply as I have.

And it just it's it's

absolutely crazy.

Like, it's wild.

I feel that

this whole century

is a century of gaslighting,

almost.

Yeah.

Like nothing seems.

Yeah, it's it's really hard

to separate truth

from reality.

Sorry. Sorry.

Fiction from reality.

So, yeah,

you on that chapter

where you speak

of the different types

of the different methods

and the different ways that,

the current monetary system

extracts energy from people.

Do you want to explain that

a little bit?

Yeah.

So just to the point of,

like, the,

the liability and asset,

like this idea of

a credit debt

based money,

you know,

it's like all

the money is

lent into existence.

It's, you know, again, it's,

it's it's

created from nothing,

you know, from

this debt obligation.

It's put into the world.

And, you know,

when we think of like a loan

or we think of,

of, of liabilities

and assets,

for me,

I often I would just kind of

like relate it to like some

I have,

you know, $20

and I'm giving it

to my neighbor or

something like that.

Like I think of it

in, in like my terms

at my level,

but like,

that's not

what's happening

at the origin of the dollar.

When they're creating

these things,

it's not like that.

It's it's really important.

Just when you

go back to like, hey,

we're looking let's

follow the value,

the created value.

Because a debt

and a liability is more of

a, it's a directional marker

of saying where

where is value

supposed to flow

like who owes

what value?

When you think of it

as like this directional,

the value

if I, if I'm giving something

to you,

you have it.

But you owe the value

back to me, you know,

like I gave you the value

and you owe it back.

But it's like

when there's

actually no value

at the point of creation.

I've.

I've created no value.

And I'm giving you

a monetary object.

Like there's

no value in that.

So it's like there's

no actual,

there's no actual

like, direction.

Like it doesn't

even make sense.

Like, it's a, like

if you,

you know, in the book,

I try to explain, I was like,

it's a it's

a contradiction,

you know, it's it defies

the principle

of non contradiction

that like, this thing

can be, you know,

both the

liability and an

asset in terms of value

because there's no

value on both sides.

So you can't actually

differentiate

values owed

to one versus the other.

Like the flow of value is

is there is none.

So it's just like but that's

the whole foundational

premise of, of debt

based money.

Because it's, it's

I guess, you know,

when I'm, when I'm

thinking of that example

for myself personally,

I've already assumed

it's been created

and there's value inside.

But at the point of origin,

at the point of creation,

there is no value.

So you can't have it.

You can't have it.

You know, either way.

But I mean, that's a

I only in the book,

I only

touch on to

the economic stuff

and so far

to prove the moral point

like that, this is,

this is not,

this is, you know,

to just even pass off

debt based money as real

is a type of fraud.

You know, it's a I'm

trying to convince

you of a lie to buy

into something

that's not real.

Why does it have value?

Well,

because I said it has value.

You know,

the government said

this is valuable,

so you better value it.

And it's like.

But you didn't

create anything

that you didn't create

any value in the world.

You know,

when the when the fed,

you know, clicked $6 trillion

and injected it

into the economy for Covid,

you know,

before they hit enter

and after they hit enter

the world was the exact same,

you know, like

as far as terms of

how much value,

is in the world,

we just have a whole bunch

of more empty

monetary objects

that, you know,

people are going

to shuffle around

and pretend as if,

you know, it's fine

and it's normal.

You know,

I don't know, it's,

it's kind of silly.

Yeah, it's

interesting because

one of the key,

criticism of Bitcoin

is that it it's,

it produces no real value

and that it doesn't

have any intrinsic

value

and all of those things.

But then when you look

at fiat,

by comparison,

that's the real one

that has no value.

Well, but I'm interested.

You talk about

intrinsic value,

you know, in a section

specifically in there.

That is another thing

I just constantly

heard people get wrong.

Like just

because if you don't underst,

if you're not separating

the monetary object

from the value,

the creation of value,

you really don't

even understand

what intrinsic value

even means.

So when we say

what is the intrinsic

value of money, of any money,

it's like we're looking

at the monetary object

and it's material potency.

It's material power

to fulfill

those monetary functions.

So it's like

it's not an accident

that gold

became the top

performing money.

It's the most

it was the most

powerful money

the world had

because

of its material attributes.

So all the

all the measurables,

the things that can be more

or less.

And this gets into

all the scarcity,

durable transfer

of like that, that list of,

of attributes,

of characteristics

that the material possesses.

You know, those

those are the things

that the power

it's function as money.

So gold was the most

powerful money.

Well, it's like

bitcoin.

So it is it

does have intrinsic value.

You know, like

the idea

that there is no intrinsic

value is kind of silly

because value is tied.

It's basically,

for any domain in your life,

value is the measure

of motion towards

an end.

So it's towards

a purpose.

Whatever

actualize is a function,

actualize is a purpose,

achieves an end.

That is what value measures.

So what does that mean?

It means it takes a person,

a rational agent,

to identify

a function, identify

a purpose.

What is the value

like if a rock rolls down

the hill?

Like is that valuable.

Like, well,

that it just happened.

You know it's not done

for a certain thing.

But if a person

lines up that rock

and like trying to,

I don't know, smash a house

or something, you know, like

when they let that go,

the same thing

can have value to that end.

So without the end,

without the function,

you don't have

the ability like

you can't have value.

So you have this person

identifying the end.

And with money you say,

I want those.

I want to be able to store

my value

that I create in the world.

I want to be able to exchange

it, and I want it to,

you know, be able

to price things

like how much

something is worth.

So, you know,

money is have

intrinsic value,

based on the extent

of how powerful

they are to fulfill

those monetary ends.

So, Bitcoin,

which is maximally potent,

it has maximal potency.

Basically

every single aspect

that you can,

all it's measurables,

you know, so it's like

that's why

Bitcoin is objectively

a more powerful money

than gold.

It's a more powerful money

than she's seashells,

you know, like

it's more powerful money

than the monopoly money in,

you know, the

board games like,

it's the

material characteristics

and attributes that,

that it possesses

objectively

make it better money,

I don't know, come on.

Like hitting

all these different

little things.

So I don't know if people.

Yeah.

That was,

that was one of the

critical things for me

when I was learning

about Bitcoin

and learning about money,

just understanding

the functions of money

and the, the,

the attributes of money

and how Bitcoin

is essentially better

than both fiat and gold.

And once you sort of

say that and understand that

and come to the conclusion,

you can't really think

anything else

like there's otherwise,

yeah, you'd be

denying reality.

But I also want to know,

in your community

because you spoke about,

how you came to Bitcoin.

But in your community,

are there many Bitcoiners

have you had

like luck, orange

pulling people

because

I also wonder as well.

My perception

is that

the easiest way

to orange build

someone is to,

appeal to the,

self-interest.

And once they sort of,

you know, see the gains

that they can

potentially get in Bitcoin,

they might

then be a little bit

more interested

on some of the,

I guess, the revolutionary,

the moral, the philosophical

aspects of, of Bitcoin.

How do you

find that to be.

Yeah.

Like your approach to

do you think. Yeah.

The other way works better.

I, I'm just really curious

to know

that that's,

that's essentially the,

the approach of the book

is to show,

hey, you are already

being abused,

you are enslaved,

you have chains around you,

even though you

may not see it or feel it.

You might be

doing really well.

You might be

some CEO of some,

you know, big, you know,

big company,

and you think you're doing

so awesome.

But it's like,

yeah, you might

you might be winning

this game.

You might be better

than, than everybody else,

but you even

you are still enslaved,

like you are still

being debased.

You know, like this idea

that, you know,

I mean, we we did it.

We effectively,

with debasement

just destroyed savings.

Like, you can't just

save money.

In the book,

I had an example

where it's like, you know,

if you are rummaging through,

you know, your,

your grandmother's house

or something

and you find some

your great, great great

grandfather's treasure map.

And he was like some,

you know, huge, rich,

wealthy, well-off person.

And like,

you go and you find it

and you dig up

the treasure chest

and you open it up

and it's full of cash, like,

that's the most

depressing thing ever,

you know, like $10,000,

you know,

would have been worth,

you know,

I don't know, millions

and millions

and millions of dollars

in today's terms.

But he put it in cash.

So now, you know, you can,

you know, maybe get,

a down payment on

a, used car.

You know, it's

just like,

it's just kind of a no.

You would want something

precious, something

you would want a highly,

highly

powerful monetary object

in that chest.

You know,

if if you

if we fast forward, you know,

200 years or whatever,

and, you know, my great,

great, great or I guess,

my, my,

some kid and I'm the

great, great

great grandfather.

And I buried a Bitcoin

in there for them,

you know,

like that's what they like.

That's the, the dynamic

that you would want

if, you know,

in that

discovery of the treasure

because I was like that's

something that's immutable,

something that is perfect,

that will store and preserve

that value

forever.

And, I mean,

I think that's really hard

for us

to wrap our brains around

because, I mean,

my entire life,

all I've ever known is fiat.

All I've ever known

is debasement,

that the cache just

loses value.

Why does it do it?

Because they make more of it.

You know, it's just.

Yeah, absolutely.

And it's a system

were all born into.

And now we have a tool

where we can really start

to question the system

and opt out of it

if we want to.

And I think see,

I can't see

why why someone wouldn't.

But yeah, like

in your experience, do you,

do you find that

if you take this approach

by you trying to

just really go for the,

the big picture thinking,

and you're

trying to appeal to someone

by helping them understand

that the current system

is really not serving them

the best is that it's been

very like successful for,

you know, orange

pulling people.

I mean, I would say

most people that I sit down

and talk with, you know,

they they actually get it,

they'll see it

and they'll be like,

oh, because like, I'm

not I'm not

creating anything.

I'm just asking them

to open their eyes and look

and use their own rational

faculties and,

and validate

reality themselves.

Like, this is true.

Like what is happening to us.

What this system is, is

just objectively true.

Like, and

I think if you said

that in the book, you know,

like I'm not providing you

any opinion,

I'm not providing you,

a subjective hot take,

you know,

like I'm

just literally laying out

what is.

And I'm asking you

not to trust me,

but just validate yourself.

Tell me where I'm wrong,

look at the logic

and and say,

oh, you made a

mistake here, but

I didn't make a mistake.

This is true.

This is what is happening.

So I,

I start, you know,

with the people

that I love, like,

I care about, like,

I don't want to see them,

be abused.

I don't want to see them

be debased.

I want what's best for them.

So, you know,

trying to talk

to these people,

and it's like,

you know,

I've been successful,

this the

the outcome is,

is kind of an accident.

It's it's really

all I can

control is the message

and how I'm

talking to people.

But whether or not

they get it,

like I can't orange peel

somebody for themselves.

Like they have to do

the work themselves

to understand

what's happening.

They have to

do the proof of work.

But again, like, that's why

I said

the whole point of this book

is to try to maybe

lower the threshold

for how much work

they have to do.

I'm, I'm trying to

to guide I'm

trying to kind of

coax and encourage.

They're like,

hey, let's take this journey

like,

let's let's

think about these things.

You can do this too.

And some people are just not

they don't care.

Like some people are

completely like

it would break

their brain to

to have

lived their entire life

thinking a certain way,

a certain thing,

and they just aren't capable

or willing to,

to consider

that maybe it was wrong.

Like,

and I understand

how hard that is,

because even in my own

like coming to terms

like it's, it's difficult

because it's like

it's something

that I don't want to look at.

I don't want to

look at the reality.

I don't want to say,

wow, I'm actually getting

like siphoned out.

I'm being

they're extracting,

I'm working my my ass off

and they're just

taking it from me.

You know,

it makes me feel small.

It makes me feel,

you know, just

I mean, it's not good.

It's not pleasant,

you know, but it's like,

that's kind of the

the motivating

and encouraging thing,

though, is

because I allow that

to happen,

you know,

it means I can

I also have the power

to stop it.

And,

I think that's that's

really cool.

So I'm just

I'm trying to advocate,

you know,

to the people

that are near and dear

to me, and,

you know,

with writing

this book was my,

you know, I didn't want to

just show up

to the fight with nothing,

you know, like,

I wrote this book to arm

myself,

to try to help arm

other people

with the moral language,

to talk about Bitcoin

in a different way.

And, you know, so now I'm,

I'm getting involved,

you know,

with, in the local community

the go

to some bitcoin meetups.

You know we'll be talking

you know

at the end of the month

at our local

we'll do a presentation

and like

my, my idea is

kind of just

most people

that have gotten bitcoin

have gotten it

through the macro

economic arguments.

And I think that the like

the number of people

that are left

that could be persuaded

that way are basically

like put a different way.

Everybody

that could get bitcoin

through the economics

probably already has,

you know, so it's like,

how do we service

all the rest

of the people, you know,

like bitcoins

for anybody?

Maybe not for everyone

because you have to want it.

But you know,

all those other people

that just don't

get the economics, like

when they start

the because

and it makes sense why

somebody would have that

like deer in the headlight

kind of prey reaction.

Like here you are

talking to me about something

I know very little about.

I'm going to

just not move,

you know,

like I'm going to not move.

Pretend I don't know,

not take any action.

Because it's confusing.

I don't like

I think maybe you're

just trying to,

you know, scam me.

Maybe you're trying to

get me down, you know, a road

where you can take advantage

of me.

Like I understand people's,

adversity

or they're not

their hesitation

to someone

trying to sell them

on Bitcoin.

You know, it's like,

I'm not asking.

I'm not asking anybody.

I'm not selling anything.

I'm not asking

anybody to trust me.

I'm just

trying to

walk them

through the same steps

so that they'll see

and understand themselves.

So I don't know.

We'll see where this goes.

I think

it's again,

like I,

I couldn't

write another

Bitcoin standard

because it's already

been written.

And if I wrote the Bitcoin

standard two,

it would just be

a really crappy book.

You know, like the world

doesn't need that book.

But, you know,

no one's made

just the strict

moral case yet.

Like why this is at,

you know, at that level.

So it's just like, it's

what I could offer

to the fight, you know, it's

what I do.

I I'm the philosopher.

I'm the moral philosopher.

So it's like,

I'm just going to do

moral philosophy

for Bitcoin and,

and see if,

if it's something that, that

people want or use.

Yeah.

And the book

is so recent as well.

Like I just realized

like, it's

pretty much hot off the press

because in the book

you mentioned,

the big beautiful

bill had already been passed.

So that's how

annuities, right?

Like it's,

and that

was one of the

last little ads,

like I have to add it.

It's it's too perfect.

It just proves

just how absurd like,

this is what we're

literally doing.

And we're supposed

to just pretend

that it's fine.

It's just

laughable.

It's laughably absurd.

What we,

What we pass off

as normal,

what we pretend is like.

Okay, it's like, no,

think about it

for five seconds.

Like, this is.

This is insane.

This is absurd.

And I'm just not going to go.

I'm not going to go

along like you're asking me

to play along,

and I can't.

I cannot do it.

I will not. Yeah.

One of the reasons

that I started my podcast was

because I do

want to bring that,

early mainstream

majority on the journey

and help them understand

the benefits of Bitcoin

and just

look at it

a little bit

more deeply because

everyone's heard of it.

Everyone already

has an impression

in their mind

as to what it is

and what what

the point of it is.

But,

you know,

if we take 100 people,

I think both you and

I can agree that about

97 would not

really understand

or have have the right

understanding of what

Bitcoin actually is.

So there's

a lot of opportunity

to bring people

on the journey and always

wonder as well.

I don't know

if you've recently seen

and this isn't

the most scientific thing.

Whether you've seen

the Myers-Briggs

personality test

among Bitcoiners

and then so obviously

like science aside,

I know in psychology

that particular test

is not that

very well respected.

Like not as much

as the big five.

But there is an element

of truth to it.

Like we can all

read it

and be like, okay,

I can sort of see why

someone who's more intuitive

in abstract thinking and,

thinks about

the possibilities

might be more likely

to adopt Bitcoin.

But I also got very curious

about the the majority of

people who

there's no

there's like zero exposure

to to Bitcoin.

I got curious

about those personalities

and I looked into them

a little bit more.

And as you can imagine,

they are people

who value stability,

they value tradition,

they value

known systems.

And something

that's, you know,

been trialed and tested

for for many, many years.

And it's not that they can't

be come

on the journey

of Bitcoin,

but they really need

to understand that,

a lot better before

they just willy

nilly accept it.

And I've recently

also been

speaking to this girl

who is is one of those,

I think, I guess f-j,

personality type.

And she studied Bitcoin

for six years

before ever

getting into it.

So that just goes

to show how,

cautious she is to big

changes.

And,

I guess we'll

face my question going here.

I also wonder

if if there's,

I forgot what the question

was going to be.

Neil.

First. Fine.

I was thinking like,

so in the book,

one of the things

when I was doing

kind of researching

the slavery aspects of AI,

I really kind of,

was captivated

by Frederick Douglass

because he was a slave

and he lived it.

That was his life.

And he wrote about it, too,

and he talked about this,

you know, this kind of

psychological distinction

between,

you know, the house slave

and the field slave.

And I love that thought.

And I think that you're

what you're explaining

is that exact same dynamic.

You know, people,

some people

tend towards just

stability and comfort.

They don't want any change.

And it's like, you know, the

I mean, the comfort

like it is to, to

to break free

from your chains

to, to escape

slavery is a,

is a bold move.

It is.

You know,

it's you're

thrusting yourself

into the unknown,

into the wild

in a kind of a sense.

And it's that

unknown is scary.

And, you know,

it does take

a certain type

of person to really want it

and to just go for it.

And another one

takes a little bit

more coaxing, but it's like,

you know,

I can't I can't

remember the exact quote,

but the essence of

what he was talking about

was like, you know,

the the person

that knows the lash,

you know,

like they,

they understand the truth

of their condition,

you know,

with like a searing clarity.

Whereas like

the comfortable house slave,

you know, that gets to eat

at the master's table

and gets to sleep

in a nice bed like

they might be a little bit

more like,

oh, this is a pretty good

deal.

Like, I'm okay with this,

you know, I'm

within a level of comfort.

They're given a

level of status

that, actually

makes them,

you know, for Douglass, like,

they were like some of the

the best enforcers

of the slavery.

You know, like

they would defend the master.

They would, you know,

when someone would get

a little out of line,

they would be the first

to pounce and say, hey,

don't rock the boat like.

And it's like

we see those same dynamics

playing out today.

And it's just like, again,

I think

that's not an accident.

You know?

It's like it's

the same extractive system.

Some people intuit it

like something's off.

Some people really get it.

Then like,

I can't even get ahead.

I can't,

save any money

to get, a down payment

for a house

or any of these, like,

you know,

can't afford a family.

I can't afford anything.

Like, they feel it

in a very real way.

And those are probably

the people

that are the first

to really like.

Yeah, I want to get out

of this thing, you know, but

I, I don't

I don't want to,

like even those

that kind of enforce

this system today

and and defend it.

It's like

I still feel for them

because, yeah,

they are equally as enslaved.

They're equally,

you know,

victims,

so it's like,

I just don't want to pretend

like they don't matter

and just leave them behind.

Like,

one of the things

that I do get

and I understand is like, it,

we all exist

in this reality together,

you know,

we live in

and we share this

concurrent moment of

the present.

And we exist in it.

And that shared

connection,

you know, as human beings,

I can't deny that.

And I understand

that.

I, I need

I need everybody else to

just as like I am

part of this, you know,

going back to this kind

of high, low morphic

guilt part and whole like,

yes, I am an an individual,

but I

also am a member of society.

I also am a member

of this collective,

you know, human race.

And it's just like

putting those things

together.

You know,

it makes me care

about my fellow man.

It makes me care

and have empathy towards

you know, their

suffering, too, and

and understanding

that, like,

if I it's one thing for me

just to to exit stage left

and take care of myself

in the short term.

But if I'm really going

to want to give my daughters

a, a world

without fiat,

like I have to

help them out too, you know?

Because as long as this

Fiat monster

is, is fed enough energy

and it keeps itself

churning and going, like

I really can't rest.

So,

that's that's why

I really do want to help

in the bitcoiners

that have it, like,

I, I probably wouldn't

have got it earlier,

you know, like, I,

I needed to have all,

all of my life experience

and I needed to have,

you know,

my philosophical training

and for me to do that

proof of work

to where when I did see

it, I could get it,

you know, like

if I would have

got introduced to Bitcoin

five years ago, ten

years ago, I mean,

I would

bet a lot of money

that I probably wouldn't

have got it.

I probably would have

sloughed it off

as it was stupid or dumb

or a scam or something

like I would have fallen

those same

tripped over

those same obstacles.

And I'm grateful

that all the people who came

before me

kind of helped

clear that path.

So, you know,

when I did start

looking at it,

I could see it clearly.

I want to Orangeville people.

I wanted to at least

give them the opportunity

to say no.

You know,

maybe not like

I ask,

I try to Orangefield

by asking questions.

I really don't

want to tell people things,

because I want them

to walk themselves

through the logic.

And, you know, even

if they don't have a,

even if I ask

a question

and it just like

the tiniest little seed

kind of falls in that crack

and they don't get it

right away.

And I may never

see them again, but maybe

that's like

the little thing the

that they're like,

wait a second.

Like,

how do how does that work?

That does

that doesn't make sense.

You know, maybe they

it turns around

in their brain for,

you know, a year

or two years,

it's like eventually

that little seed,

when it sprouts, like,

it can break that

rock, you know, it

can bust that crack

right open

and then they'll be ready

for it.

So yeah,

I, I don't

I don't measure success.

By how many people

are actually orange pilled.

It's just,

am I putting

the right message out

that maybe,

you know,

I take care of

the input, and,

the outcomes

will take care of themselves.

Yeah, I, I

love the analogy

between the house slave

in the field slave,

because you kind of see

those dynamics play out

in all sorts of different

environments, even at work,

you know, people

who are close

to sort of senior management,

they might think

that they, yeah,

have more privilege

and illusion of privilege.

And same thing.

Yeah, happened

during Covid as well.

A lot of people,

you know, that that

were behind the vaccine

mandates at work.

Witness didn't

necessarily

think it was the morally

right thing to do, but

they went along

with it as well.

And unfortunately, a lot,

a lot of people

lost their job.

But what I want to go back

to is like,

Bitcoin in my mind,

aligns with most

people's core values.

You know, if you speak to the

average person on the street,

everyone wants to live

in the world where,

people don't have to live

paycheck to paycheck,

where people don't

have to think that,

you know,

working

more is not necessarily

going to lead

to a better life,

which is very much the case.

I read somewhere a statistic

that over 50% people

believe that,

so it really aligns

with most people's values.

And, and I guess that journey

to help people on understand

how they can get, how

we can get back to a system

where you can afford

to feed

a whole family

on a single income

without, you

know, necessarily

having mortgage

stress and financial stress

that that we

experienced today

in Australia.

But you know

who's particularly bad now?

People who are earning over

like 200,000

and don't have any kids

in a double income,

have mortgage stress.

So it's really, concerning

to think about

how everyone else,

is living

in surviving out there.

Yeah.

The, the thing that I

kind of

guess goes back to

Aristotle is like,

so if you,

if you read

all of basically,

Aristotle, what he has to say

on economics, it's, it's

actually not that much

because he's, he's

writing it in the ethics.

For Aristotle

understands that

without ethics,

without moral,

a moral foundation

for justice,

you can't have an economy.

No one will ever exchange

anything with them,

with another person

if it's unfair,

like so.

You have to presuppose

this ethical fairness

and like so what?

What does that mean?

It's like so

economics

is driven

by the

by the ethics.

Like the ethics

comes before the economics.

So if you understand

the ethics behind the money

behind exchange

like that,

that's going to tell you

what type of economic fruit

will come

from that ethical tree.

So it's like

when when we come at it

from just economics

and we divorce.

Because a

lot of times people,

this is my problem

with the whole idea

of a broken money.

Right?

I understand why

that is a powerful,

you know,

it's powerful rhetoric

because it grips

really hard on this,

like intuition

that something is off,

you know, like something,

something bad is happening

with the money.

So we want to say it's broken

and it's like,

okay, well,

that that makes sense

from a purely economic

like surface

level analysis.

But the problem with that

is if the money is broken,

that that means

we're severing it

from from ethics.

It's just this amoral tool

that sits there

and it's but it's like

the money is it's

literally between two people.

It's two people or what

create the money

in the first place.

It's forming

how people connect

with each other

on a societal level.

Like,

I mean, Aristotle

even says this like,

that's the money

is essentially the glue

that kind of holds it.

It forms the bonds.

So it's like, well,

what is the nature

of how we are connected?

Are we connected through,

you know, this ethical,

cooperative relationship

or are we connected

through this,

you know,

extractive,

coercive

controlling mechanism.

And it's like, so

like money is a tool.

It is either a tool that

that creates

a healthy relationship

or a, you know,

in like link,

like I

asked, I it's just,

you know, if I chain you

to a plow,

you know,

are those chains

broken?

It's like, no, they're not

they're fulfilling

their function like that

money is fulfilling

its function as as forming

the bonds

of how we how we relate

and connect to each other.

So I don't want to sever

the moral,

the moral

from the macro.

I don't want to

sever the ethics

from the economics,

because the ethics

is actually

what is creating

the economics.

So it's like

you look at the price chart

of Bitcoin

and it's all crazy

and it's everywhere.

But you look at the log log,

you know, and it's just this

45 degree line.

And the economist is like

I don't know how to explain

that.

Like that's

such a odd phenomenon.

Like how is it

that this,

that Bitcoin

is this crazy

ultra performing asset.

And it's like,

that's a really complicated,

answer

if you're trying to model

the what

and trying to explain it

away that way.

But when you

understand the ethics

and you say, oh,

valuable, my,

ethical money

is more valuable

than unethical money,

that's it.

That's literally why.

So if you want to know

the why to the price action,

like why does it perform

the way it is?

Well, when you understand

the ethics,

you don't have to care.

Like you

don't have to

care about the macro

if you understand the moral.

So it's like

I'm trying to keep it

as simple as possible

so that it hits

the broadest range

of all people

so that if they can,

if they can,

you don't have to understand

any of the models.

You don't have to understand

CPI and,

and all these different rates

and all this craziness like

if you understand that it

and that's enough

to get you into Bitcoin.

Like you can start

your journey,

you can save yourself,

you can shield yourself

from debasement.

And like that's to me

that's success.

You know, I care more about

onboarding

a million families

than I care

about million dollar bitcoin

you know and it

and if you understand

the relationship

you were even like oh

the former drives the latter.

And even the amount of nodes

we have

you know,

we have like

20 some thousand nodes.

There's 8 billion people

in the world.

If we were

able to,

you know, add

a million nodes,

20,000

just seems so small.

What kind of a message

does that even send?

You know, it's like it's

empowering the individual to

to reclaim their dignity

as a moral agent,

to assert themselves,

you know, as a, as a,

as the actual force

that they

are, in this world.

And you can do that

with Bitcoin by reclaiming

your monetary sovereignty,

you're reclaiming

your political sovereignty.

You know, you're

you're you're

you're even reclaiming

your rational sovereignty.

You're saying,

I see the world

for what it is,

and I'm not going to buy

your, your, your fantasy

little Lala story that

that value

comes from nothing.

You know, I, I just,

I reject it

whole whole cloth,

you know,

like that's in the book.

I talk about

monetary gnosticism

as like the idea that it's

just some magical spell,

this speculative fantasy.

And if I just

go along with it

and believe it,

like I can

change the actual structure

of reality.

And it's like, no,

you can't like that's,

that's that's not

how reality works.

Reality is

what it is.

I am what,

you know, a human being.

I am a human object.

In reality, I have

a, you know, a

subjective experience,

my consciousness.

And it's like

that human object

with this subjective

consciousness together is

what is the whole answer

of what it is for me

as a human being.

I'm just like,

I don't know, it's

just kind of

for someone to say,

you are not that

and ask me

to go along with it is just,

it's beyond the pale,

to just

reject it.

Yeah, absolutely.

This is another reason

why I love

Austrian economics as well,

because I feel like

it's based on reality.

But I wanted to.

I just remembered

something else

as you were speaking.

Another part that I really,

really liked in your book

was when you were

talking about the fed

and the section

where you were

explaining that

it doesn't matter

what the intention

was behind

the design of the system,

which again,

I love how you said it.

It's not broken.

It's working exactly

as it's designed.

So it's working

perfectly well.

But,

do you want to explain

a little bit about that?

What you mean like

when you said, like,

outcomes

are the same regardless

of what the intention is?

Yeah.

I love that part.

Yeah.

I mean, so, like,

and this again, this is,

you know,

all this is coming

from this, like,

deep philosophical,

you know, foundation,

in, Aquinas talks about this

where it's just like,

you know,

what are we as a human being?

What are we

capable of judging?

You know, and we

we judge observable,

you know, action.

We judge observable reality.

I can't it

he says it's not

that we're bad at it.

We're incapable

of judging

the hidden interior.

So, like,

I can't judge

what you're thinking.

I can't judge

what you're feeling.

I can't judge

why you're doing

the things you're doing.

I can just judge

your actual

observable behavior.

Like what?

What what

is actually happening

in reality?

That's what I have access to.

So a lot of times

when we're talking about

the monetary system,

it's like, oh, well,

we have to do this

because, you know,

we're trying to help

everybody out.

You know, we have to

we have to print the money,

because the whole thing

would crash down.

And we're really doing it

to help people.

And it's like,

you know,

I don't care

if you're

trying to help people.

I don't care about

your intentions.

You might be

the most benevolent

good hearted

person in the world,

but what you're doing

is evil.

What you're doing

is enslaving people.

You are extracting

objectively the value

people put into their money,

and that you know it

because you can take it

the other side too.

You could say,

oh well, you're

really sinister.

You're the evil genius,

and you created this

perfect mechanism

to, you know,

extract all the wealth

and value from the world

just for you.

It's like, you know,

some people might argue

that and say,

oh, you're evil.

And for that,

for your intentions.

And it's like,

or you can say, oh,

I'm good because I'm trying.

It's like, just push

all that off the table.

You know, just look at

objectively

what's happening,

you know, like that's

why in the book I started off

it just like

everything

is to answer this question

about what is debasement?

What's happening technically,

what's happening morally

throughout the whole book.

Like that's the

that's that's the one

central thing that everything

is feeding into.

And at the end,

you know, answer

that question

for yourself honestly.

And if you don't understand,

keep digging.

You know, keep doing.

I try to show,

you know,

and provide you

with enough stuff

that you can validate

and come up with your own

answer to that.

But like,

if you

can't answer that question

and you just brush

it off as like,

yeah, whatever, it doesn't

matter, you know?

Well, you're

literally just

that comfortable house slave

denying, you know,

what's being like.

You're seeing

everyone in the field

get abused

and, you know,

kind of in your heart

that it's bad.

And you, you just

you don't want to look at it.

You can't

acknowledge it, man,

for whatever reason,

you know, it doesn't matter.

But like that's

what you're doing.

If you if you look away

from that question

and you don't answer

that honestly,

you are looking

away from the abuse.

Yeah,

yeah.

Very true.

Do you

have any other books

on the horizon, or did you

any really

ever plan to write one?

I mean, it's kind of funny.

It was like,

I didn't really want, like,

I didn't

want to write this book.

You know, I

this is not a fun.

This was not a fun.

Like, yay!

I'm writing this.

You know, this this fun

loving, awesome book is like,

no, this is like,

it's heavy

and it's hard.

This is the book that I

had to write because this is,

it just like

once I saw it,

I had to take action,

and this is how I could

contribute it.

But I, just

with talking

with my publisher,

you know,

we started getting talk

about, like, The Wizard of Oz

and how, like,

that kind of

monetary allegory,

you know,

was how

it correlated to today

and how it didn't.

And it was just like,

he was like, well,

just do that.

You know,

update the allegory,

you know, so,

I, I have the, the,

the allegorical companion

to, To Modern Chains,

which is this basically

the Wizard of Oz plus

modern chains together.

But, I mean, it's,

that's the fun,

light, lighthearted,

kind of take, but it's like,

it's kind of funny

because when you're

doing an allegory

of an allegory,

I mean, it's

it it it it invites laughter

because it shows

how absurd

things are

that we take serious,

but they're the same.

And it's like, I don't know.

So that

that kind of was this the

the last little side

piece, there, but

I don't know.

I'm, I'm going to just

this is my fight

now, like,

this is what I'm doing.

Until until it's done.

I mean, even if

I don't see the end,

the end of this fight

like that, this is the fight

that's bigger than myself.

That's worth it.

And it's worth all my effort

and all my energy

and all my time.

You know, because,

you know, every day

when I was, was writing,

you know, I'm thinking like,

this is for my kids.

This is for my grandchildren

that aren't even born yet.

Like this.

This is for like,

that's why I'm doing this.

Because I have to

take action today.

Like, this is my,

you know,

I'm not even my.

This is our burden.

Like says, I said,

you know, we

we do share this moment.

We all are in this together.

And this is the fight.

So we either come

together and,

you know, in fiat,

I mean, it sounds such

like a lofty,

like stupid thing,

but it's like,

that's why

I'm so grateful for Bitcoin,

because we actually

have a tool

that is designed to in fiat.

So it's like

it just takes us

picking it up

and wielding it.

And you know,

in the Army,

you know, you take

a, an 18 year old kid

and you train them

to be proficient

with weapons

systems

within a squad,

working with others,

employing tactics to

to achieve victory.

And it's like, we'll just

replicate that, like this.

It's the same type of fight.

Like,

how can we take anybody,

you know,

show them, hey, here,

look at react,

look at reality,

look at your life.

Look at where you want to go.

Here's a tool that

will really help you,

you know, achieve those ends.

Get proficient with it.

You know, understand

self-custody understand

running a node.

Understand all these things

and then

and then do it,

you know, and

kind of back

to what you're saying about,

you know,

even if we're not

advocating this through,

if we're not orange

peeling people

through the message,

living

a good life

like that

is going to draw attention

to, you know, like,

what are all those free

people doing over there?

They look like they're,

you know,

they're doing really well.

They they love life.

They're having kids.

They're having families.

They're having you know,

they're building communities,

like they're

filling their lives

full of meaning and purpose.

And I'm sitting

over here in fiat land

getting, you know, debased,

miserable,

like I'm going to start.

Well, what what do they got

that I don't like, you know.

So it's like even

even if they're not

getting it

through the message

just by like by living

a good life

that will attract others

to start paying attention.

Yeah.

You're so right about that.

I have, good friends

that have retired

thanks to Bitcoin.

And they still,

I think, like in their late

30s potentially,

I don't know, the real age.

But yeah,

they, they've retired.

They,

they're having a family.

And you know, I can't help

but think how lucky

those kids

are to have

two parents at home.

Thanks to bitcoin.

So, so yeah.

Is, is,

trying to draw

as many people out

so they can tell

their stories as possible

out of the community.

So that other

people can see,

you know,

what is it, Bitcoin?

How do they live their lives?

It's probably not

what most people think.

Most people

might think that

a Bitcoin, or is

someone who's into crypto

wants to get massive

gains, wants to, you know,

essentially get more fiat.

And and it's like, no,

no, no,

Bitcoin is a trying to have

less fiat.

That's the whole point.

So yeah, I'm kind of

not trying to do too

in the book was show

how the

the costs,

the consequences of fiat

are way beyond

just the monetary, economic,

social capital.

That is a huge,

I think you say in the book,

I mean, social capital

is actually

the most sovereign

of all wealth,

like the relationships

you have in your life

are the most important

things beyond even money.

It's like a trait

kind of saying that

people will say,

but it is true.

Like true joy and happiness

does come through

other people.

And having

those relationships

and doing things

for others, you know?

And when you have

both parents, you know,

working 80 hours a week,

throwing their

kids in daycare,

they tuck them in,

you know,

at night for five seconds,

and then they throw them off.

You know, it's like,

I don't even know

my neighbors.

I can't help somebody

across the street,

you know that,

they're moving.

I don't have time

to help them

unload their truck

because it's like I'm

just on this rat

wheel, you know?

I'm just.

I'm just running

my little Fiat race,

and,

like,

I have time for nothing else.

Like, just.

And then it's like,

why is society crumbling?

Why is there

this meaningless crisis?

Like, why does everyone,

you know,

on all these antidepressants

and all these?

It's like you can just like

those are the

real consequences.

Fiat doesn't

just drain the value

from the money.

In doing so.

It also just like

brushes

your soul.

It just degrades

your human dignity.

It makes you,

I think

was the quote

in the book, it's like

it makes you

less than what you are,

and it keeps you

from becoming

what you ought to be.

You know,

it's like it's kind of a two

fold thing, like it's

this oppressive weight

and it's like, that sucks

in and of itself, that abuse.

But what's even worse

is that, like,

prevents you

from actually

getting anywhere,

and being somebody in

somebody else's life

that's like that,

like when you, when you,

when I wrap my head around

just the enormity

of the abuses.

Like it,

it kills me

like I it,

I mean,

if that doesn't fire you

up about like, hey,

this is something worth

my time and energy

to fight and combat this.

And it's like, I don't think

it's like,

are you even human?

Like, I don't even know, like

it's that type

of a question, like,

are it lit a fire in me?

It actualized me

and it challenged me

to become

more than I was.

And,

you know, so I'm.

I'm very blessed.

I'm blessed to

for that

reason.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm fired up.

My mom keeps

telling me to fire down

because she's like,

you're burning out

because of this cause.

But I'm like, it's

that important to me

because I can see,

how it's ruined.

Not just our economy,

but our relationships.

It ultimately incentivizes

nihilistic behavior

in people.

And and that's what.

Yeah, I don't

I just want to go back

to a world we once had.

With the technology

that we have today.

But you have those,

you know,

communities restored,

relationships restored,

the nuclear family restored

because, yeah,

it incentivizes

people not to have children,

not have relationships.

It's yeah, the

I can't it's so funny

because you're right

in saying that

once you see it,

you can't unsee it.

So now when I'm not,

when I'm reading a book

that has nothing to do with

Bitcoin

are related back

to central banking somehow,

and you can just see

so many different.

Like I was reading a book,

on narcissism

of all things and,

and I found a

pathway to central banking

because one of the causes

of narcissistic behavior

in people is,

if you

if you have a child

that's, you know,

I guess that

their nature is,

they quite needy

because some kids

are an idiot and others

some cry more,

some, you know,

need more time

to settle down.

And you combine that

with a parent

that's absent or,

neglectful,

then that is

like the perfect

breeding ground

for narcissistic behavior.

And if we have a society

where parents,

not as present,

that's potentially

going to breed

more narcissistic children,

and that's like, you just

it's it's amazing.

I relate everything back to,

money printing essentially.

Yeah.

It's it's

creating these little

these bad feedback loops.

It's just like it

just gets worse

and worse until,

you know,

like reality

will reassert itself.

Like we can play these games

of Imagination Land.

It until reality

reasserts itself

when we smack into it

and it

it's going to hurt like,

you know,

the illusion can't hold

off reality forever.

It's just like, I don't know,

I totally,

completely resonate

with like, like what enables

the system is

just going along with this.

And when you,

it kind of burns

the candle from both ends

as like

when you think of

yourself as less than,

you know, this dignified,

human, rational moral agent

and you don't think

you have any power

and you don't think

you have any say,

and you think your

choices don't matter,

and you just have.

You're just this floppy sail

and the wind

getting blown around

like, well,

you're you're

easily manipulated,

like so it's like

the system

degrades you in that way.

And then it makes you easier

and easier to control

and to keep,

to keep moving

in that same,

that same line.

So it's like

it's really just

breaking out of it

and seeing yourself

for what you are,

you know, understanding

what a human being is,

understanding why

rationality and free

will put together

create this like

immense dignity

within you

and that you are worth it.

You are,

even, even

like you

are worth the effort.

Like you talked

about burning out.

And it's like the thing

that I've experienced with

this is

this has been more energizing

than anything.

Like,

I have been burnt out at work

where the drudgery

and you have to just

pick yourself up

and drag yourself in like,

that's horrible.

I don't have to do that

when I'm working on

these projects.

My output is

the I've

been more productive

in in these endeavors

than anything I've ever done.

And it just is like,

you know, it's

the positive feedback loop

in the

in the other direction.

The success.

I know,

you see, the more

I work, the harder

I work,

the more

the the more I see,

accomplished.

It just fuels me even more.

So, you know,

I, I, I don't

I hope I don't burnout

in that sense.

Yeah.

It's a different kind of,

you know,

it's a different kind of

burnout

because I'm not

burning out like,

I was burning out in fiat

because I felt like

a sense of hopelessness.

And and you know what?

What is the purpose of

all of this?

It's more burning out

from just a constant

cell, like,

feeling of,

am I doing enough?

Am I doing enough?

And and just

trying just.

Yeah, I spend a lot of time,

even, like, on social media,

trying to create content,

sometimes hours

to post something

that I think

might help people, but

then it doesn't really

get much engagement,

but it just goes to show

as well

how early we are in this,

not that many conversations

out there that are trying to,

I guess,

tell this story that I am

a lot of Bitcoin