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Creating a design concept for a kitchen or remodeling an outdated bathroom requires an understanding of the products and services available to those looking to undertake such a project. The ProSource Podcast breaks down the home remodeling industry and highlights the merchandise and experience that it requires to achieve your vision. Join ProSource Director of Digital Marketing Content Kevin Devine, as he speaks with those who facilitate the ideal project and offer valuable information for how to choose the ideal products and services that transform your ideas into reality.
In each episode, we’ll
be talking to industry
Welcome back
to another episode of the Pro
Source podcast.
Today we are talking all about
the finishing touches of kitchen design.
We also have some very special guests
that will be able to talk about
all aspects
of finishing a kitchen remodel.
First up, we have Prosource
Trade Pro member Walter Miller.
He is the owner of O'Bannon construction
and he does a lot of home
remodeling work down in Florida.
We will also have on Matt Nicola from Top
Knobs to chat all about kitchen hardware.
And then Greg Payne
from Engineered Floors.
he chats all about
flooring in the kitchen.
So let's go ahead and dive in first,
starting with our trade pro member Walter.
Hi, I’m Kevin Devine,
and this is the ProSource Podcast.
Walter, how are you doing today?
I'm doing well. And you? I'm doing great.
Thank you.
if you don't mind just starting off
telling us a little bit about O'Bannon.
what you do
and your role within the business.
so I'm that. I'm actually the owner.
I, I actually have two,
two businesses, one one here in Florida.
And I also have a business
in Pennsylvania.
we do roofing windows, siding
and also remodeling.
Not as much now
that I'm down here in Florida, up north.
we've been in business
for roughly 32 years, I think since 1992.
okay.
It's a family owned business.
I'm the last of the family.
Except for the little bit of family
that's running the business up north.
I came to Florida about four
and a half, five years ago.
and started remodeling mainly kitchens
and bathrooms here in Florida.
What made you want to move to Florida?
My father in law.
I actually moved my father in law here
during Covid.
And, up north, it was a little slow.
So I did a little few things down here and
and actually,
if Florida, Florida allows you,
if you're been in business
longer than ten years, Florida
allows you to start a business here
without all the crazy paperwork that you
normally have to do to start a business.
So I figured I'd give it a shot and do it.
You know, occasionally.
But it it's blown up.
I mean, it's, so busy. It's crazy,
which is good.
I'm not complaining.
Just explaining. It's it's been good.
Good to hear.
So today's episode is all about
the finishing touches of kitchen design.
I know you work with homeowners a lot,
and I'm sure they come to you.
They have either
they have a huge vision for what they want
or sometimes
maybe they rely on your expertise.
Yes, to help drive them on
what direction they want to go, to say
they do have this big vision.
And if you're seeing some roadblocks or
potential obstacles, or how do you balance
maybe your ideas with their vision
when you're working on the project?
I always start off by listening to what
they have to say and what they want,
and normally, you know,
depending on always their pocketbooks.
you know, their visions are always bigger
than their pocketbooks.
so I try and balance that
with their visions and what we can do.
So I listen to what they have to say,
what they're looking for,
and then I take a look around
and walk them through some things and,
you know, some things
that we could possibly change, move around
because they're kind of fixated on
what's there and the design that's there.
So it's hard for them, for some of them
to see what we can actually do.
and that's good with 3D design
where we can actually move things around,
we can show them different designs.
so I kind of take in what they want.
Give them a little feedback
on what we could do
and try an upgrade because,
a lot of folks that I deal
with are older
and they're a little tough to change.
so once you start showing them things
and you start showing them in,
especially a 3D, configuration,
they kind of like it.
And you can kind of move them
a little bit.
And there's they're kind of
they get unstuck on what they have now.
And yeah, they're open to some change.
Well yeah, I'm sure them seeing the 3D
all the new technology that's coming out.
Yes. People probably are blown away.
Yeah it's great
especially you can open doors
and open doors and they love them. Yep.
So with homeowners there may be elements
to an existing kitchen they wish to keep.
but may interfere with the new kitchen
vision, that they're wanting
besides just showing
them, you know, the new technologies,
the 3D renderings.
how else have you navigated
some of those issues,
or do you have any specific stories
that you could share with
how you came to a closure
with a specific decision of a design?
So, yeah, it's funny
because just last week I had
I have a client, just last week
we were walking through a design
and they were fixated on this wall
that was there and the refrigerator
that was actually in a door in a walkway.
they just had it stuck in their head
that this refrigerator had to stay there.
And I didn't really know why at the time.
I figured I figured out
that it was because of the water line
and of course, water lines are.
It's like electricity.
We'll pull it out,
we'll move it to the other
side of the room, will take the wall out.
And it was a, it was a
I think it was about a 31 inch wall
and it was a non bearing wall.
And I listened to them
listen to them and I said
but we can move, we can move this,
I can put your refrigerator over here.
We can do a nice building
with pantry's around it and
they just kept saying,
no, I don't think we can do that.
I don't think we can do that.
So finally I just said, why?
Why don't you think we can do that?
And that's when it came out.
Well the electric it's going to be
too much to run the water.
And I said, forget about all that.
I said, we're not talking about
a huge amount of money to reroute water,
a water line,
because all their water is in the ceiling.
I said, we're not talking about
a huge amount of money.
Like, forget about the cost of the water.
Forget about the cost of the electric.
Let's talk about design first
and then we'll go.
Then we'll worry about the water.
We'll worry about the electric.
Let's get this thing designed the way
it's it's going to function.
Good.
We'll take out that little piece of wall
because it's not doing anything there.
We can extend your kitchen
a little bit into the dining room
and imagine what this place
is going to look like.
Opened up.
then their eyes lit up and then they're
like, okay, that sounds really good.
So that's kind of how I navigate that.
I feel like it's good.
communication is key, right? Yes.
You having the expertise
and even just having the confidence
because if you didn't have the confidence,
they'd be like,
oh, does this guy know
what he's talking about?
but obviously you do.
And so that really helped
change their minds on that.
Yes. And I hear
from so many clients before,
they're actually my clients
when I go in to see them,
and they've had other people
in ahead of me
how the contractors
just don't talk to them.
They don't give them any ideas.
They hear what they want.
They say, okay, then
write it down on paper and they leave.
I'll get an estimate like
nobody wants to give any feedback.
I've been doing that
stuff forever, giving clients
listening to
them is really important, but giving them
what they don't think they want
is really important too, because yeah,
and I want them to come in and say,
wow, I'm glad that I spent all this money
and did all of this work.
It wasn't just for a new, updated
kitchen, it functions better.
I used to work with a lot of, older
people up north.
I had a,
I used to work with a lot of disabled.
so everything was about function.
So even down here, like,
folks are getting older, we want them to
be able to stay in their home
and, and grow old in their home.
So functionality is a big thing,
wasn't it?
we want that's also kitchen to function
for them for the rest of their life
so they don't have to worry about,
getting old.
I'm going to have to move out
because I can't get a wheelchair through.
Take out a wall, move it.
Refrigerator, move it.
It's it's all it's water
lines and electric.
That's it's not a big deal.
Functionality
is definitely most important for sure.
Absolutely.
Speaking of functionality, when people
are thinking about kitchen flooring,
what are some recommendations
that you automatically think
of when discussing with clients
what kind of kitchen flooring
they should be looking at?
So it really depends on what what
they have in the rest of the house.
if they're trying to match
what they have in the rest of the house,
if they have ceramic
tile in the rest of the house,
if we can split it and again,
it goes back to functionality.
I try to not have, tripping hazards ever.
So if their kitchen is connected
to the rest of the house,
but they just want to change the kitchen.
and they have tile
in the rest of the house,
but they don't want to tear up the tile
that's in the house.
So of course, or the and they don't
want to tear up the tile in the kitchen
because they don't want a mess.
Of course, we take every precaution
on wrapping people's homes up
so that they don't get dust
in the rest of their house,
but still, people have this thing about,
oh, great,
my house is going to be full of dirt,
dust.
yeah. It's
sometimes you can't change that.
Vinyl flooring
is, you know, LVP is the best
I try and push them for,
especially for kitchens.
It's soft on the feet.
If you drop something on the floor, it's
not going to break.
It's not going to shatter.
it's just a good all around floor.
and I tell them, depending on how
we run it, if you then decide
to do the rest of the house,
we can connect
and we can do the rest of the house,
and it's all going to look cohesive
to the rest of the house.
So moving into cabinet hardware,
kind of a thing that people overlook.
They get the whole kitchen done,
and then maybe they're
looking at their cabinet
hardware like a week later and things
just don't seem as right for them.
They didn't even think about, you know,
the pools and the knobs on the cabinets.
It's not always top of mind.
why do you think cabinet hardware
is an important topic for a kitchen?
That's often overlooked?
Well, and it's funny you say that
because there's there's been occasions
where I, I'm so fixated on Kat's
design that I'll have to say, oh, wait,
I have to go back and do cabinet hardware.
I do it myself. Yeah.
But then there's people that are
so fixated on these big giant handles.
And you, I'm like, snow.
So it's like it's too much.
You're going to be you're taking away
from your whole kit kitchen. Yeah.
With this huge like okay
I know what you like.
Let's size it down a little bit.
Like your jaw.
Your jaw is only 12in wide
and you want a 14 inch handle on the jaw.
It's like it doesn't make sense.
So, yeah, depending on the cabinet,
I mean, if shaker shaker style
cabinets are huge right now,
I mean, that seems to be probably 90%
of what I'm putting in right now
or shaker cabinets in my eyes.
Simple looks best on shaker cabinets.
Some people are going with stuff
that's a little fancier.
Then you get into something
a little fancier.
But hardware
definitely finishes out the the cabinets
and you don't want to overwhelm it
with crazy oversize hardware.
And I try to match.
So if you have an appliance
that has a simple, simple handle, you can.
You can match all that stuff.
So I have one client
that she didn't want to see any hardware,
so she had us put those metal tops
where you just pull and she loves it.
I had another client that wanted
square knobs that hated them
because they hurt her fingers,
so we had to change them of Ram.
So it's like they want what they want
until they get it,
and then it's like, well,
maybe so it's hard.
I cabinet hardware is
one of the hardest things to deal with.
It's so different for everyone. Yeah.
Before and sometimes
even after after they're installed.
Gotcha.
So I like when cabinet hardware
comes in multiple sizes so that we can do.
I have no problem doing the same hardware
in multiple handles in multiple
multiple knobs here.
Handles here, smaller handles here.
So it's all the same.
It all looks the same
but it's not all big handles everywhere.
And yeah so it all looks good in the end.
And it all matches perfect. Yeah.
You actually just answered
another one of my questions.
I was wondering if you thought
it would be better for cabinet hardware
to stand out or blend in.
It seems like you're more
of a fan of blending in
and not being such a statement, right?
Right.
Not having such a Bam type of effect.
Yeah,
and that again depends on if you have a
if you have a cabinet
that is just so fancy.
yeah. Depending on the colors.
And I don't run across that
a whole lot here in Florida anyway.
but then you want something
that's going to stand out then.
Yeah, some people wanted to,
some people wanted to stand out.
So you just you don't want it to blend in
with the cabinets so you can get
a little bit of pop with the hardware,
depending on what it is, hinges.
People don't really want to see hinges
anymore.
It's really hit the hinges.
It's the big thing right now.
I'm sure that's going to change again
at some point,
and people are going to want
to see hinges again.
But it's a trend.
Yeah. Luckily.
Would you say that cabinet
hardware is very easy to interchange?
I've seen a lot of people DIY
different, cabinet hardware options
if they just want to like,
touch up their kitchen, but
maybe they don't want like an installer
or contractor to come in.
They'll just kind of go on Pinterest
and look up different ways
they can change out their hardware
from a DIY perspective,
are you seeing people do that a lot? Yes.
Are you talking about hinges
or are you talking about,
like pools,
just knobs, like little things like that.
As long as you have the center,
as long as you have it definitely pulls
single hold pulls or you can change out.
And handles are easy to change out
as long as you have the center
hole measurements.
they come in standard sizes.
So as long as you have that measurement
you measure from the whole center
to center, it's really easy to order
handles and change them out yourself.
It's not hard for a Phillips
head screwdriver.
And you're you're good to go.
Yeah, maybe a YouTube video
if you really need help, right? Yes.
Absolutely. Yes.
How can homeowners best compliment
their flooring choices
when they're selecting cabinet hardware?
Are you seeing people maybe
match their flooring to their hardware?
I don't see a whole lot of people worry
about matching hardware to flooring.
I'm seeing I'm seeing a lot of people
are trying to bring in a lot of light
flooring down here, and I'm
trying to talk them out of the yeah,
I just and it's funny
because the same customer
with the same client
with the, with the refrigerator,
they had these white
this white Florida they wanted
and they wanted white cabinets,
white floor.
And then they were going to pick a darker
counter and I'm like, please
go to a darker,
go to a darker floor and.
My thing is,
is with hardware like look around
at the bigger, bigger picture
if you have your appliances
are the biggest thing in your kitchen.
So if your appliances are stainless steel,
then you don't want to put black hardware
or gold hardware.
So if everything around you
is stainless steel,
then maybe you want to go with a brush
nickel,
something that's going to go with that.
And then if you do that flooring
it is tough with floor
to try and match hardware to flooring
because my thing is like I want
the whole house to kind of tie together.
I don't want the kitchen to be such a
stand out away from the rest of the house.
So I try and match it so that later on,
hopefully
they're going to do the rest of the house.
If they're
if they're just doing the kitchen,
hopefully
they're going to do the rest of the house
and we can tie in the rest of the house.
That's my thought, always is later
on doing some more work in the house.
So the biggest thing is like,
let's make everything
so that it's cohesive
with the rest of the house
so that later on, again,
if we do the bathrooms,
we're going to be able
to tie in the hardware from the kitchen
into the bathrooms with the floors
into the rest of the house,
into the bedrooms, into the bathroom.
So I don't really see a lot of people
worrying about trying to tie
in the hardware to the floors.
it's more the hardware with the
my thing is the appliances,
the lighting fixtures, that kind of stuff.
Yeah, I've never, you know, even myself,
I've never thought about,
I guess, just all the appliances
and how at the end you want those to go
with the rest of the kitchen too, right.
So I could definitely see how homeowners
would overlook that.
Right.
because I didn't even think about that.
Yeah.
If you have all stainless
steel, appliances and you have something
that does not go with that, it's
going to look a little funky.
And if you think about don't think of that
right now.
If you think about it, that's the most
metal in your kitchen or your life. Yep.
Yeah. and you don't want to ignore that.
I mean, some people, some people are still
buying white appliances, which yeah,
there's one I just want to get cuz I,
I hate white appliances.
But yeah, some people still want the,
just be like childhood nostalgia.
It's white appliances. The white fridge.
Well,
yeah. Well, I'm a little older than you.
I'm sure, but I'm thinking
back of the oh, wait, from the bring back
the lime green and, whatever.
Or avocado green they used to call it.
Yeah. Yes.
That would actually be kind of cool.
I think I would like that for a day or so.
And then I think, oh,
maybe this wasn't a good decision.
Exactly, exactly.
How do you think designers can help
their clients best
when choosing have cabinet
hardware in the kitchen?
Are there any other?
We've talked a lot about cabinet hardware.
You've given a lot of good recommendations
on what people should do.
is there anything
I guess we haven't touched base on that
maybe homeowners should think about,
or a designer should think about
when they're giving recommendations.
So I always so my thought is always
whenever especially hardware,
I try and find out what they like,
what the homeowner likes.
And I bring them a few choices.
So I always think my thought
is the less choices, the better,
because the more choices you give them,
the harder it's going to be.
Yes. yeah.
Just like bring
you bringing them into the showroom.
I bring them into the showroom
and they get their eyes opened, her mouth
dropped, their jaw drops, and it's like,
oh my gosh.
And then I forget I'm in for the long haul
because it's going to be a long day
and it's going to be many trips
back, you know?
So I always try and find out, okay,
what do they like?
And then okay, let's pick some samples
and then let me bring it to you.
Don't keep coming back to the showroom.
Let me bring them to you.
And then
I have a small group of samplings.
And then here's 3 or 4.
What do you like out of these?
And okay, you like this,
but you don't like this style.
Let me bring you 3 or 4 more.
Because when you overwhelm them
with a whole rack of hardware.
Yeah, that's
when you're going to run into trouble.
In my eyes, less is more.
The displays we have in the showroom,
it's like, absolutely. Yep.
A whole bunch of them.
So like I said, when I first went,
I was like, oh, that's a lot.
Yeah.
And they and they stay in there
and they just spin them
and they just spin them and spin around.
They're looking and looking and looking.
And I was just like,
this is going to take forever.
It's going to be forever.
So yeah. But yeah.
So I always trying okay. You like that.
You like that.
Okay. I'll bring them to you.
Let's let's move on to let's
go get tile or
let's go get cabinets or let's,
let's take a couple samples.
I'll bring everything to your house
and then we'll go over everything.
Let's get the design out of the way
and that's that.
Yeah, that that's a great idea.
Yeah. That always seems to go the best.
Well, thank you so much for your time
today, Walter.
We appreciate you taking some time
out of your busy schedule.
I know you're probably super busy
with everything down in Florida.
You have a great rest of your day.
Thank you, thank you. Bye bye. Thanks.
Hi, I’m Kevin
Devine, and this is the ProSource Podcast.
about a variety of topics within home
and commercial projects. Enjoy!
We're going to switch things
over to Matt Vecchio from Top Knobs.
thank you, Matt,
for joining the podcast today.
If you don't mind
just introducing yourself and what you do
for top knobs
and a little bit of background
on what top knobs is, that would be great.
Well thank you Molly,
I'm thrilled to be here today.
I love the pro source, franchises.
I love doing business with you guys.
And will be invited.
about me, I've worked at Top Knobs 17.5
years on senior
director of national sales.
spend the majority of my time
out on the road traveling with sales reps,
visiting customers, especially pro sports
franchises around the country.
And, you know, doing everything I can
to grow the top most business,
around the U.S. accounts.
So that's what I do.
And I'm perfect.
I am based, in Branchburg, new Jersey,
which is where the top notch home offices.
And that's where that's where
I'm sitting right now is at Tottenham's
HQ here in Branchburg, new Jersey.
Awesome.
well, today's
episode is all about the finishing touches
of kitchen design, and I think
it's perfect for top knobs. Why?
A lot of people, when they think about
the finishing touches,
they think of, you know, the door handles
and just cabinet handles, hardware,
things like that.
When homeowners
are remodeling their kitchen,
and they turn their attention
to cabinet hardware,
what are they typically considering?
Have you noticed?
So when they're remodeling their kitchen,
a lot of times people fall in love with
like a centerpiece part of their kitchen,
whether it be the faucets, the a lighting
fixture, or something on the appliance
or even something within the cabinets
that they want to match.
So usually they take inspiration
from a centerpiece
within the kitchen that they want to
kind of model their cabinet hardware ever.
So whether that be a textured faucet or,
you know, gold light fixture
or anything like that,
that seems to be where the, designs
that they select with on top,
not for driven focus from plumbing,
lighting, hardware, appliances.
Do you ever see anyone just throwing
in very random styles of cabinet
hardware that doesn't necessarily
go with anything else in the kitchen?
Not really.
I mean, people are pretty by the book
when it comes to cabinet.
You know, it's not something
people want to take a risk on.
it's.
Yeah, usually something that just kind of,
you know,
the big investment is the cabinets.
You don't want put something crazy
on your cabinets.
That's going to make take away
from the beauty of your kitchen cabinets.
You know, the cabinet hardware.
We kind of equate it
to putting really nice rims on a car
or something like that, you know,
just kind of want to blend it in
and make it look nice and not stand up.
So to something
to be the jewelry of the cabinet,
that's a good way of saying it. Yes.
what do you think drives the popularity
of a specific type of cabinet hardware?
So really kind of trends in the industry,
whether it's, you know, we're seeing
a lot of textures and knurling
designs and faucets and lights, fixtures,
which is what's inspiring
our new collections.
you know, driven by the trends
and prominent lighting,
I think is what, you know, drives
the popularity of, of our hardware.
So, again, kind of piggybacks
off the first question you asked me.
Yeah. You know, same kind of thing.
Do you find that those trends impact
what like how it's manufactured
or does it have a big impact
on the manufacturing of cabinet
hardware at all?
Yeah, absolutely. So every year
we come out with new designs.
So that's one thing about top
knobs is every single year
we come out with about 5 or 6 new looks.
Usually we, you know, cater those based on
what's going on in the industry.
And we get a lot of feedback
from our customers, designers, work
and trade shows and things like that.
And, you know, people
kind of hip us to the trend that even just
maybe in the eyes and ears for the company
out in the field and our local sales
team and our customers, they,
you know, let us know what's trending,
what's popular.
And you need hardware to match X
or you need a finished
that looks like this and things like that.
So, you know, we are
we have our ears to the ground,
and we're always trying to stay current
with what's going on
in the kitchen of both industry
and what's trending.
And that's what we drive
our new designs off of for sure right now.
What metals and colors
are you seeing seeing that stand out above
all the others?
Which ones are super popular right now?
So right now, we have a French called
Honey bronze, which is a gold tone that is
far and away our number one French top
names has been in business over 30 years.
so brush that nickel's always been
our number one finish.
Last year, honey
bronze surpassed that nickel.
and it was actually my third most popular
finish.
Now matte black
also grouped into the top three as well.
So black and gold
are what's trending right now.
So all the finishes
we were just talking about
seeing if people go kind of crazy
with what kind of cabinet
hardware they have, if it matches
the rest of their kitchen or not.
Most people,
when they're looking at their kitchen,
they just want to simply change out
the hardware.
It's an easy switch out. I know my mom.
She's obsessed with just changing out
little things like that.
It's super easy.
What feedback
have you heard from homeowners
that are looking to make
that kind of adjustment?
So one thing that's a little bit
tricky is you always have to match up
the existing center to center.
So if you already have cabinet
hardware screwed in, sometimes it's,
you know, three inches
and the piece you want from
whatever Cabinet Harbor supplier
might be three, three quarter inches.
So it might not fit.
So I referenced a collection
called the Garrison Collection,
which we just launched, the top notch.
And what we launched with
that was universal back plates.
So you can put it back plate over
your existing center to centers.
And you know, if you have a three inch
center at the center and you wanted to add
even a larger piece like a five and one
sixteenths cover up, the existing
screw holes had a longer length.
And where we go.
So, that's one way to do it.
But even just someone who, you know,
you're
you're renting a house,
you just want to have maybe some old,
I don't know,
ceramic knobs from 30 years ago on there.
And they just want to swap out
and put some, you know, nice
upgraded,
gold hardware on their cabinets.
Just, really upgrades
the entire look of the entire kitchen.
So, it's just it's an easy, inexpensive
add just to upgrade
the look of what you have.
Yep. I agree, and anyone can do it.
You don't have to be a a trade pro
or really know how to work any
specific tools besides,
like a screwdriver.
Most of the time
it's probably the SDI project you can do.
So yes, exactly.
What kinds of stories or experiences
do you hear from trade pros?
that will help shape
the future of Top Knobs products.
Do you take any of their feedback
and move forward with it?
Always?
I mean, people can tell us about,
you know, we we've launched some
some tables which you install
and they kind of fade away
into the cabinets and some they were just
saying, look,
we just want a, clear and concise way.
Just so people can, you know,
they don't want to have the cabinet ever
so much in your face.
So we launched some temples
a few years ago, which is great,
but really, all of our trends
and all of our designs
and everything that we do
comes from the trade process.
I mean, that's that's the feedback we get.
We want to do
what makes their life easier.
We want to do when they're doing installs,
when they're doing
whatever trends,
they're doing anything like that.
You know,
we want to make their lives easier.
You know, everything we do
is driven by feedback from the field.
So obviously today's main
focus is about the kitchen.
But cabinet
hardware is place throughout the house.
is there a place in the home that
maybe unexpectedly rising in popularity
that you're seeing?
I'd say laundry rooms, mud rooms,
and you oftentimes
you see these boot benches
that people that a lot of the cabinet
manufacturers are doing as well.
you know, we have cabinet hardware.
We also have decorative hooks as well,
which people are using within pop ups.
A lot of people are doing that
in mud rooms and places like that.
And then, believe it or not,
you know, with obviously Covid shifting
a lot of people to remote work
and working from home, oftentimes
people are putting cabinet
hardware on their,
you know, office furniture and things
like that, which we've never had before.
So, yeah, people are spending more time
in their home offices.
They want a really nice piece of furniture
in their office.
And oftentimes
you put no hardware on there as well.
So probably a lot of outdoor
living type of situations too.
I know that's been a
couple of years.
Yeah.
We have some stainless steel
hardware that,
that we, that we use all the time
that outdoor cabinet manufacturers use.
And people do an outdoor kitchens use.
obviously bathrooms is a huge place
as well outside the kitchen to
so, you know, even just on a vanity piece
for a couple of knobs
on there to dress it up as well.
So that's another DIY project
for people to swap out for Roman.
and so, yeah, lots of places
outside the kitchen, they use top notes.
How often do you find kitchen designs
where homeowners choose to have more
matching cabinet hardware, as opposed
to, cabinet hardware that stands out?
You talked
you talked about it a little bit already,
but you're seeing most
people are just playing by the book.
Maybe there's a few odd jobs out there
that want to go crazy.
And I mean, it's super easy.
You can always switch it out.
If it doesn't work right.
You can always put it out.
But you know, we we don't see people
taking too big of risks.
Yeah.
And Top Knobs is, you know, a
pretty mainstream line.
You know,
of course we have some pretty designer
driven looks, but most of our stuff is
pretty mainstream, pretty transitional,
doesn't fall too contemporary
or too traditional.
We're right in the middle
and people are just looking for
something that blends into the cabinets
and not stand out too much.
You know?
Maybe they'll take a risk on a gold
finish, when maybe they would have gone
with a brush that nickel
a couple years ago.
Yeah, that's kind of where we see
people taking risks is on a, you know,
a trending finish with gold or black,
which might stand out a little bit more.
Whereas,
you know,
ten years ago
everything was past that nickel
and maybe a traditional oil
or a bronze look.
But that's where people are taking that
risk is when the finished, not so much
the design. Gotcha. That makes sense.
I'm sure durability plays a factor
in choosing the right kind of cabinet
hardware, the right brand.
How does top knobs help themselves
stand out in that regard?
And maybe even talking to
about outside, where you definitely want
to have something that can with hold
the elements of being outdoors,
but even inside as well.
Hey, look, at the end of the day,
it's pretty simple.
Yeah, we have a lifetime warranty,
so any issues that you have,
we stand behind our product and something
that effect the finished flakes off.
Something breaks.
we have a
no questions asked lifetime warranty.
So we stand behind our product.
That's great to hear. As simple as that.
Yep. Exactly.
We talked a little bit about trends
desktop
knobs as far as going out in the field.
Do we also do you guys also look at
I guess a lot of people
bring up Pinterest
and looking from like a DIY standpoint,
do you ever touch base on
just like the online community of DIY or.
Yeah, we have a whole design community
within top notch.
We have a whole designer blog
that we have,
you know, we actually have a whole product
within our product management team.
We have a design team, in-house designers
and things like that.
So they actually just returned
from the Saloni conference
in Milan, Italy, a couple weeks ago.
just to see what the trends are in Europe
right now.
So, yeah,
I mean, we have our ears to the streets,
whether it's on the social media
outlets, Pinterest, you know, traveling
to international trade shows.
we actually we just at a trade show
in New York City, the ICF conference,
yesterday and, yeah,
we're we're all over the place.
We got our ears
to the streets on everything
trending in the entire industry.
So, our in-house design team was for each.
so what's next for Cabinet Hardware?
What do you see happening?
Maybe in the next year or two with trends?
Do you see it staying the same?
Do you see anything going
a certain direction?
Well,
I think we're going to continue to see
texture on cabinets, texture on hardware.
I can't really give you
a definitive design style that might drive
more sales, but, you know, warmer wood
tones in their kitchens, more texture.
that's kind of what we're seeing.
And that's what they saw, overseas
in Milan a couple weeks ago as well.
So we'll see.
yeah, I expect more of the same
for the next couple of years.
but you never know.
I don't know, do you think that,
I guess, like cabinets and hardwood,
the trends that are in those markets,
is that influencing
top knobs and cabinet hardware at all?
Like, I know we're kind of getting away
from the gray flooring
and going more into those Golden's like
you talked about Golden being the number
one seller right now for you guys, kind of
just more going towards that probably.
Yeah, I think I think a lot of that
and I think a lot of the finishes
that have been popular
the last couple of years and cabinets
like the the crazed greens,
the blues, I think those are going
to kind of fade away.
Those have the finishes. Nice. Yeah.
You never know.
Whatever it is, whatever it is,
we'll have some cabinet hardware to match.
Okay. Perfect.
Do you have anything else
you want to add about top knobs
and what's in the future for top knobs.
So the future for top knobs is more of
the same.
We're going to continue to innovate,
come out with great new designs
with multiple lengths, multiple finishes,
matching appliance pools, quality
that's unmatched in the industry.
Back with a lifetime warranty.
excellent customer service.
You know, the other thing about Top Knobs
is we have everything in stock.
We have an over 99% water flow rate place
in order in the morning ship, same day.
We have, you know, warehouse out
on the East coast, one on the West Coast.
Usually you have everything
within 2 to 3 business days max.
So, you know,
you continue to see top notch.
Just be as strong supplier for you
and one that has your back and, yeah,
we're we're thrilled to partner
with Prosource love
doing business with you guys and, yeah.
Look forward to continued sales
growth in the future.
So, it's
it was a privilege to be asked to be
on this podcast
and really, really excited to be here.
this is actually my first ever podcast,
so I can't wait to see.
Oh, great.
Thank you so much for your time.
No, thank you for inviting us.
It's this was a lot of fun for sure.
So have a good one.
I’m Kevin Devine,
and this is the ProSource Podcast.
We're going to switch
it over to Greg Payne
with Engineered Floors.
Greg, thank you for joining today.
If you don't mind introducing yourself
and introducing
what you do with engineered Floors
and your position in the company.
Hi, I'm Greg Payne, with engineered
floors, director of buying groups.
I handle, CCI corporately,
as well as hopefully
working with every,
prosource showroom in the country.
I think I've been the most,
if not, I'm sorry.
I we'll be there shortly.
so, I'm good.
we've been doing business with you,
quite some time.
Me personally,
through shot and through tough techs
and now through, engineered floors.
I've been doing this for probably a little
longer than I've always been around. So.
But, All good.
love, the relationship we have.
I love the relationship I have, with
Prosource, and, the Prosource family.
it's awesome.
And we've got some wonderful things
in the works, and,
a lot of things that are going to happen
as we move forward in the future.
This episode's all about kitchen design
and, engineered floors.
is perfect for this episode, actually,
because flooring is a huge part of
the kitchen.
It's literally
the homeowner's foundation for the space.
Why do you think that kitchen flooring
keeps itself in such a high position
when it comes to homeowners and trade pros
making decisions on their kitchen floor?
You know, it's
I'll share something personal with you.
We're actually in the process
of remodeling our kitchen.
There you go. Yes.
So I've been going through
all the steps, you know, to,
get this project started in June.
So coming up very shortly.
but, you know, the interesting thing,
you know, when you think about a kitchen,
you know, I always refer to it
as the living kitchen,
you know, because everybody
wants to spend time in the kitchen
no matter what's going on,
whether it's celebrations, family events,
friends over.
It just seems to be a magnet
to attract people.
But the interesting thing,
from a flooring perspective,
you know, a lot of rooms in your house
may or may not have that much
flooring exposed.
So flooring in a kitchen
has a lot of exposure.
All right.
So it really makes a bold statement
in the floor of a kitchen.
And if you think about it,
with most appliances
most cabinets are on the wall, you know.
So there is a large space there.
And so it becomes, a bigger portion
of the visual of a kitchen.
And I think it's very important.
And if you look at any type
of illustration from magazines
to digital to whatever,
every time you look at one,
they really have to focus in on cabinets,
because if they do a kitchen shot,
you see a lot of flooring, right?
They are an island.
Those are the two things
that seem to dominate, the view.
And I think with a lot
of what we were seeing
as new trends, Island
seem to be kind of waning a little bit.
And so that exposes even more floor.
So I think those are really key to,
you know, the foundation of the kitchen
is finding the right flooring.
And I can tell you
from a personal perspective of,
it's the one area
my wife is most concerned about.
Yeah. I'm sorry.
Yeah, probably because of those reasons
you just touched.
Based on it, I feel like
it is like the first thing people say.
The first people say, you know,
and so it's it
is, important aspect
of designing a kitchen, know for sure.
And you talked about just how much traffic
is usually in the kitchen.
usually kitchens are near
the front of the house,
or at least the doorways,
whether that's back or front.
How has engineered floors
help develop floors that remain durable?
To withhold all of that traffic
that's going in and out.
you have large family gatherings,
you have pets in some homes.
How has engineered floors
kept up with just the durability
and the high quality of the flooring?
Well, one thing,
that we have, recently done and,
if you ever get down this way, Molly,
I'd love to give you a tour of our plant.
we have a new, plant,
making luxury vinyl.
And it is direct
digital printing right down to the core.
And, we do not put layers on it.
You know, one of the concerns,
with luxury vinyl number one, scratching.
Right.
And we are now, making our product
with aluminum oxide,
which gives us, an AC four
rating on the two styles
that we just launched
with Prosource atmosphere and nurture.
Not ugly scratch proof,
but it's more scratch resistant.
it's more dent resistant.
We have a high density, core,
that we're very, very proud of.
we make every aspect of the product
right in our plant.
All of the materials are sourced
right here in Georgia, Tennessee.
And I think a little bit out of Kentucky.
So, it's truly a US made product
and one of the few domestic products
currently being made and also
one of the few true digital luxury models.
Speaking of vinyl,
is there a call for certain
wood appearances
more than others right now?
Are you seeing
which trends are definitely more,
in favor by trade pros and homeowners?
I would say, just in general,
people want wood, you know,
that's when you're like, clear.
I want wood.
And, you know, there's
there's some aspects of wood, you know, if
if it is a, a gourmet kitchen
you're building with a chef that comes in
and cook, maybe you can put wood in there
because you probably have a crew
to clean up your house and maintain it.
but if you're like the rest of us,
you know, you want to serve,
that gives you that performance, right?
That that makes those standards.
And so, you know, with, you know, having
a wood visual in digital,
it's is five times
clearer than anything in the marketplace.
Right.
That's that's number one.
So the visual is outstanding.
And back at convention,
people remember I had a microscope.
I mean,
the only person you ever heard,
showing flooring with a microscope, but,
it was used to point out
the fact that it is digital.
Now, there's one important thing
in any digital aspect,
whether it's a TV or whatever
you're looking at, could be digital.
Print are the pixels.
You know, that's
what makes the photo realist.
And so, if you laid out real wood
next to our product,
and I would highly recommend
the account manager steer this
because it really shows
the product extremely well.
When this happened, it looks more like
wood than it looks like a luxury model.
So when someone comes in requesting
that wood visual,
they have a, an opportunity
to give them a product
that meets the water requirements,
that meets their performance
requirements, yet
gives them this incredible visual.
And, Molly, there's one additional thing.
And this is really cool
because it's digital.
Our repeat of planks is 35.
So what happens.
The industry average is seven.
So if you're in a big room
with a lot of exposure
where most kitchens are, you're going
to start seeing repeats, right?
Yeah.
Lead your meter to go
oh that's fake right.
because you just keep seeing the repeats,
in real wood.
You don't necessarily see that. Right.
So with our product with 35 plank repeats,
you avoid those type of situations too.
So we just think we have the right answer
for a lot of questions
in this environment.
And like you said, most common people
aren't going to have actual hardwood
floors.
No, those people don't have the budget or
just, access to keep it
clean and maintain it.
So, yeah, I mean, we
we have the in our house.
So, Yeah, yeah.
Let's say you want something
a little more durable.
Wood's wonderful.
We have wood in our house, too, but,
anyways, no,
it's, Paul scraped wood that we have.
Yeah. You have to be very careful with.
With that.
I have a dog, and we have hardwood.
And just one part of our house,
but we have an older dog now,
so when we leave,
we have to keep them off of that
and put them in a different room,
because cleaning the hardwood is just.
It's a nightmare.
If you have pet is a nightmare.
So a lot of work
talking about the
the wood look with vinyl.
What where do you see that
gray is comparing in popularity
to the more typical brown?
What look is that going out.
So so here's the thing with, visuals.
And we're working on a lot of need,
of course,
but I'll just talk about the current
two day course that we have.
We have 12 SKUs in each right.
So so there's a lot of variables and
colors in that, which includes some grays.
it's really interesting.
You know, as I travel the country,
you know,
middle of the country is real wood
visual, right?
Yeah.
and, if you're on the coast,
it gets much lighter.
Right? Interesting. Okay.
where I'm seeing a lot of gray is kind
of, western Texas
all the way to California.
So it's kind of in that, southwest area.
I'm seeing gray
still maintaining a lot of popularity.
Now, once again, going back
to personal experience,
one person pick up marketing survey.
But we found gray and almost everything
we were looking at, right.
Mean.
Whether it was the countertop,
whether it was the backsplash,
I mean, there was a hint of gray
everywhere.
So, you know,
I think gray has integrated itself
as a neutral color,
within all types of flooring.
I don't think it's predominant gray,
meaning,
you know, it takes over everything.
Your walls are gray.
You know,
our cabinets are gray, etc., etc.
I think there's still a lot of flexibility
to work around
gray with many colors,
but there are grays, in our products.
And I do see, areas of the country
that love gray as interesting to here too.
just, you know, with different cultures
across the United States,
which one is leaning more gray?
Which one's leaning more towards,
like the Browns and the neutrals?
We've talked about kitchens
being that high traffic area
with pets, moisture spills.
How has engineered floors elevated
the concept in homes across the country
when it comes
to combating against moisture?
So, one thing, Molly, and this kind of
ties into this a little bit,
but I think it's important to mention,
you know, in developing this product,
basically, from the,
the ground up, you know,
we changed,
our locking system,
you know, we saw a lot of issues with tap
and lock and, so we went to the
the angle angle, for our product.
And I have personally,
put boards together, not an install solved
by any stretch of imagination,
but it shows I have put more together.
it goes together very easily.
I think the locking system
and how that, operates
within the system of being waterproof
is important.
and I think we have the right
locking system for that, aspect of it.
Certainly.
you know,
with, stone, plastic composite,
you know, you have a, foundation
that is essentially waterproof,
there, you know, and I think
potentially back in the
pandemic days,
some of the manufacturers of these cores
started trying to reduce cost
and changed a few things in their corners
that maybe cheapen the product
a little bit, maybe lessen some of the,
performance characteristics of that.
And I think it's given us a chance
to have a fresh start on, developing
something from the ground that that was
probably a very cool to be a part of, too.
Oh, it's great off the tour coming here
that.
Yeah.
always really shocked, to see what
what have you heard from trade
professionals that are installing flooring
and helping homeowners
with the selection process
that has helped shape the engineered
floors selection of flooring.
Do you get any feedback where you're like,
I, we need to go in this direction
because most of our trade pros are well,
the first thing was the locking mechanism,
okay.
That was feedback that we got.
was the locking mechanism.
But you know, as
we were developing the product and,
and by the way,
you know, it's
not that, you know, we have something
that someone could go out and acquire.
All right.
Yeah.
But, you know,
we had to spend about 80 million and,
they're not going to get the equipment
overnight, maybe a couple of year
to get it up and running correctly. Right.
Because it is a true, learning process
as you make it.
And so some of our feedback came
when we first started working on it
was, some of the, performance issues
from making it to dance, like dancing,
you know, all those things.
And I was told by one account,
yeah, to take you about 100,000ft²
to get things right.
Right.
So there's a lot of things that you test
in the lab aren't necessarily
going to respond the way you expect
when they're actually in the field.
So we've had a chance to go through
all of that, you know, starting back
at the end of last year.
And, and now the product
that we have launched out to the pros
or showrooms, is what we feel
is a high quality product that,
you know,
will meet all of their expectations
and hopefully exceed
all of your, members expectations
and, and give them a high quality product,
well designed and
and meet the waterproof meet,
you know, more scratch resistant,
but most importantly, look like
they want it to look right, because
ultimately, when you buy a product,
when I buy a product, you know, it's it's
what appeals to me, right?
And and a lot of times you're looking at
something that has a visual appeal.
That's part of the value equation.
Right? It's that visual, you know.
So we think we've given a great value
equation
with performance,
with the characteristics that we have,
with the fact that it truly does
look like real wood.
we've even had
some people who have told us
it looks like a sanded
and finished piece on the floor.
And one of the cool things, Molly,
is because it is a digital file.
We actually do a digital file of 35
planks.
It's how we get the 35 points.
So we take real wood, the 35,
files.
Now, the cool thing about that,
because it's digital,
going online with our products, it's
not a picture of a picture of a picture.
Yeah, yeah.
That's true.
Online we look so much better.
I've had so many people.
Oh, what are y'all doing to this? Why?
You know what?
Y'all are digitally enhancing this.
No, it's a digital.
It's true.
Right? It's the real thing. It's digital.
You know, it's not like,
you're having to manipulate sales
since most of our competitors are film
or some type of, paper film base, or
there are some
that are printing onto paper digital,
but it's still not quite
the same as direct digital printing.
so I think that's one thing
that, really separates us
and one thing that we got
a lot of feedback on, on moving forward
with what excites you the most about vinyl
in the home from our perspective.
And we've been importing for a long time.
Right.
but, you know, making a domestic product
and knowing that it is a,
a large percentage of the business
and being able to participate in that
with a product made in the US,
sourced in the U.S., that excites me
and that excites us, you know,
because we're doing something, that,
you know,
people haven't done at this point,
you know, most of this is imported,
and, you know, it's coming in containers
and, you know, we have a few supply
chain issues every once in a while
for different reasons.
we're not going to have that.
And we can ship out very quickly,
and ship it right from vault in here.
And, and that excites me
from the aspect of, providing,
you know, our base in North America,
a quality
US made, us sourced product.
That's awesome. Yeah.
It does feel like just listening to you
and hearing about engineered floors that,
engineers floors is doing a lot of things
that nobody else is doing right now
in the industry.
When did engineers floors start?
So, engineers
floors, floor started 13 years ago.
Okay.
And, literally,
we have a plant called Sam.
And you'll appreciate
this is named after someone's dog.
Oh, yeah. It's a hunting dog. They had,
Sam plant
and, it is over 3000ft² under one roof.
Now, let me explain how Dalton works.
Okay. Yeah,
it's kind of weird. Especially.
Have you ever been here?
No, I have it. Okay.
So this is kind of interesting.
So if you ever drive around, like,
I just went out and got some latch, right?
and you see all these trucks from all
these manufacturers driving everywhere.
Okay.
And, people always ask us,
why don't we see your trucks?
Now, there's a simple reason.
So an average square foot,
from our competitors,
their trucks drive 250 miles
for one square foot.
That's just involved.
Yeah.
So they have to move it
from this plant to this plant,
to this plant, to this plant 250 miles.
We average
five miles per square foot. Wow.
So it's a green story.
It's a hard one to promote,
but it's truly a green story.
Yeah.
Sustainability passes
and less gas used on top.
Yeah.
so when engineer for started,
it was the only flooring, company
in the business that was under one roof
and at one time is one of the largest,
manufacturing facilities in the world.
I think, Tesla now, has passed,
but we do have.
Yeah, and we do have. Yeah.
I used to expand it, quickly if needed.
And, so we're very happy about,
you know, our manufacturing process.
Very proud of it.
And,
we think we make a high quality product.
and,
you could ask anyone, about our service,
and you'll hear from everyone.
Our service is second to none.
When did you guys introduce
digital digital flooring?
Okay, so, I started in October, right?
Okay.
And, we had people
in, prior to that,
and they saw the equipment
and they saw some mock ups,
and it really seen anything.
Truly. Right.
until literally when I was in, in October,
we were really starting
to, run inventory, right?
I mean, I know a lot of things.
There is another green story
to, our manufacturing there.
That's also one
that's really hard to relate,
to customers,
to consumers, to members, to whoever.
But we can, literally take a product,
run it through the entire process.
And before we put the attach pad,
we can actually recycle it,
re grind it and make it back into core
because there's sale
literally, we're printing
right onto the core so we can do that
and put it back into the process,
go through the whole extrusion
process again and make another core,
without a single waste.
We've had a lot of people.
Well, we know you're,
you know, starting this thing.
So, what are you doing with your seconds?
Really? Know how. Yeah, yeah.
You know, because
once we get to that last step and,
you know, we're kind of committed.
I know we've
we've talked about a lot of things
that, Engineered Floors
is going to be having in the next year.
I mean,
the digital concept is still pretty new.
Like you just touched base on.
Is there anything else on the horizon
with engineered floors
coming up in the next year
or two with vinyl and particularly
anything we haven't touched base on?
We are working on some,
very interesting things.
we actually have the,
CSA hard surface buying team back here,
and we showed them some of the new,
the cores that we're working
on, some of the new visuals,
some of the things that we're learning
as we use the equipment more and more,
some unique things that we can do,
one we refer to as bold,
where you're actually bringing out
or the graining
because of how you process the image.
so you're adding more ink.
So it creates a bolder look.
So it brings out the graining
a little bit more.
We also have what's known
as a digital embossing process.
It's spot on
because it's kind of like a 3D printer.
You know, you're not manufacturing.
You have slides, you know, shipping.
it's right spot on.
So, our digital embossing is,
quite unique,
to the industry really giving a
not so much the feel because, you know,
once a consumer fills in the sole,
they'll probably never feel it again.
Once they fill it up, it does,
but it's primarily for the visual effect.
Right.
So you can, you know, see that,
not you can see, medullary.
Right. You can see,
mineral streaks.
You know, all those things are enhanced
by other digital embossing.
So there's a lot of things we're learning
there.
We're also learning with aluminum oxide
how to move into a five.
Even potentially a C6 for even,
you know, more stringent, requirements.
and so in some of the visuals,
you know, because,
you know, you can take
a, a digital image of anything, right?
So we, we,
you know, looking at some really unique,
wood sources, to continue doing that and,
you know, maybe sometime in the future,
which, strangely enough, it's
an easier process to make tiles than it is
what we could,
potentially make tile at some point.
And also, you know, it's not going to
happen right away, but we can also make,
longer
water planks as well, in the future.
So, and so a lot of opportunity
and, and, you know, just starting it's
kind of just getting that flavor.
yeah.
Marketing and understanding
that market better.
And, what,
you know, our equipment can do.
That's another big part of it.
Our engineers, learn almost every day
some unique things that we can do.
Yeah.
I can't even imagine with how quick
the world's
changing to just with technology in 2026,
this might look entirely different.
Yeah, but you just said you never know.
You never know.
I mean, you know, who knows?
You know, I mean, you know,
I look back, ten years ago,
I would be shocked at what we do today.
Right? Yeah, that's very exciting.
A lot of fun and exciting things
happening with engineered floors.
It sounds like.
Yeah.
Well,
thank you so much today for your time.
Greg. I know it's nice to see you, too.
And maybe if I'm down there
sometime, I'll take a tour.
we'd love to have you down.
You're welcome to tight.
Awesome. Thank you so much.
Have a great day. You, too.
us today on the Progress Podcast.
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