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A movement founded by doctors, for doctors, dedicated to empowering medical professionals to reclaim control over healthcare decisions and advocating for their fair share of the industry's resources.
00:00:04:00 - 00:00:06:01
Justin Nabity
This is the Doc Nation podcast.
00:00:06:04 - 00:00:27:12
Justin Nabity
We are a movement founded by doctors for doctors dedicated to empowering medical professional to reclaim control over health care decisions and advocating for their fair share of the industry's resources. Please note the views expressed are those of Doc Nation and not necessarily those of our Guest or Reference Health centers.
00:00:27:14 - 00:00:30:02
Reid Lancaster
Hey, Matt, thank you for joining us. We appreciate it.
00:00:30:03 - 00:00:30:12
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Thank you.
00:00:30:13 - 00:00:44:01
Reid Lancaster
And we appreciate it for a couple of reasons. But number one, can you explain what your last 24 hours was like as we were talking off off camera there? It wasn't the typical last 24 hours for a human being.
00:00:44:03 - 00:01:02:11
Dr. Matt Mazurek
No. Exactly. First of all, I would like to go ahead and make a make an announcement here that anything I say here, all of the opinions and and anything I say here are just expressing my own opinions don't reflect the Yale School of Medicine or Yale New Haven Health. So that kind of gets me off the hook a little bit.
00:01:02:13 - 00:01:29:08
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Anyway, yeah. Last 24 hours. Now I show up at 630, 7:00 in the morning, typically do, a full load of cases throughout the day and then any add ons throughout the evening, and then stay in the hospital for any intubation and other procedures, any emergency cases that, you know, arise throughout the evening. So I've been doing this for 25 years and have done in-house call for a majority of that.
00:01:29:10 - 00:01:39:10
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Anywhere from one night a month to I'm currently doing about three nights per month, which is the average here. So.
00:01:39:12 - 00:01:41:21
Reid Lancaster
And you, but you slept at the hospital last night.
00:01:41:23 - 00:01:43:15
Dr. Matt Mazurek
You get lucky.
00:01:43:17 - 00:01:47:23
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
So that's a good night. And a very comfortable bed right?
00:01:47:23 - 00:01:49:03
Dr. Matt Mazurek
It is, it is.
00:01:49:03 - 00:01:52:18
Dr. Matt Mazurek
That's a that's a good night. But I will tell you as I'm getting older.
00:01:52:20 - 00:01:52:24
Reid Lancaster
Yeah,
00:01:53:00 - 00:02:07:21
Dr. Matt Mazurek
I'm in my mid 50s now and this, this whole, this whole concept of staying overnight in the hospital is it's getting a lot tougher. You know, it's one thing when you're in your 20s and 30s and you have a lot of energy, it becomes a recovery mode if you haven't gotten much sleep.
00:02:07:21 - 00:02:36:01
Dr. Matt Mazurek
But I think this is kind of a, you know, a good segue into what we were discussing prior to this is, I think, the number one problem right now facing health care, especially with regards to physicians, is continued burnout. I know that, you know, Covid really exacerbated the the rates and prevalence of burnout, a lot of physicians, I think somewhere on the order of 100,000 physicians retired or left practice in the last 3 to 4 years,
00:02:36:01 - 00:02:38:01
Justin Nabity
100,000?
00:02:38:01 - 00:02:39:16
Dr. Matt Mazurek
nearly 100,000 physicians, yes.
00:02:39:19 - 00:02:40:05
Justin Nabity
Which is what
00:02:40:05 - 00:02:41:22
Justin Nabity
percentage of the total would you estimate?
00:02:41:22 - 00:02:45:24
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Well, oh, shoot. What? The total workforce is a little over a million.
00:02:46:01 - 00:02:48:22
Justin Nabity
So in ten years, if that continue to happen.
00:02:48:24 - 00:03:15:16
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Right, it's going to get worse. Right. So I think, you know, burnt burnout leads to lower quality outcomes, it leads to more absenteeism, productivity issues. I mean, it's just a whole laundry list of of consequences of burnout. And we really do know what the causes are. But systems have a difficult time trying to address them. And that's because now while 80% of doctors are employed.
00:03:15:18 - 00:03:37:20
Dr. Matt Mazurek
So what have we lost? I mean, I was originally in private practice in Tucson for 12 years, and I did have agency and autonomy. And also when I was a medical chair, chair of anesthesia and the chief of staff down in Tucson. When you are independent and you, you are part of a private group that's contracted in the hospital, the voice at the table is a little bit louder.
00:03:37:20 - 00:03:59:13
Dr. Matt Mazurek
And I believe, in my opinion, people pay a lot more attention to it. Now that physicians are employed, I think in some systems, some physicians may see some things or have some issues, but they're a little bit more wary about bringing those issues up to the front. Because you don't want to bite the hands that's now feeding you, if you will. So...
00:03:59:15 - 00:04:05:21
Justin Nabity
How much different has it then shifted for you from having the autonomy back then to now and just in general?
00:04:05:21 - 00:04:36:06
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Well. I've had four different employment arrangements in the last four years. So I went from, you know, leaving my practice to joining a large national, you know, group. And then we lost the contract in the middle of Covid. Then I became an employee of a large regional health system. Had tried to renegotiate or negotiate some of my leadership responsibilities and, compensation time to actually do those duties wasn't really particularly happy.
00:04:36:08 - 00:04:53:03
Dr. Matt Mazurek
So what's happened to me is Yale basically cold called me and recruited me out of the blue. And this is the one thing that I don't recommend people do, but I did it anyway. I had a zoom interview over an hour and a half. One Tuesday evening. An hour and a half later, I got a phone call.
00:04:53:03 - 00:05:17:01
Dr. Matt Mazurek
We'd like you to come to Yale. And I said yes, send the contract. It was the fastest interview to contract. 72 hours, sight unseen. Yeah, it was just one of those. I kind of pulled the trigger, and the only reason I did so is because my interview was was superb. I had there were four physicians. I'm at Saint Rafael's campus, which was excellent and I can I can tell when someone's, not telling the whole truth.
00:05:17:01 - 00:05:24:14
Dr. Matt Mazurek
And I could tell that they were actually telling the truth, and the stories were consistent. So it's, back to academia. So...
00:05:24:16 - 00:05:43:09
Justin Nabity
Wow. So this burnout issue, what what would you say if there were some specific things that could happen, some changes that could be made? What what do you think are those big drivers that could lead to an environment much better for doctors?
00:05:43:11 - 00:06:05:05
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Well, I think there are two things that could happen across the board. First of all, all the boards of directors for health systems and hospitals should have at least 4 to 5 physician representatives. And I believe that the burnout metric should be discussed on an annual basis and real efforts made to try to improve some of the systems and processes.
00:06:05:07 - 00:06:36:09
Dr. Matt Mazurek
You know, for example, I think that, you know, emergency room physicians, anesthesiologists and ICU doctors and hospitalists in particular, we're experts on operations management. We see the patient workflow through a hospital. And I think that there are a lot of initiatives sometimes that end up falling flat because there's not enough input by the physicians. So I think that that would again, restore some of not the autonomy necessarily, but I think that what we really can do is restore some more agency.
00:06:36:11 - 00:07:17:07
Dr. Matt Mazurek
In other words, give physicians a voice back into the system that we once enjoyed. But I think that there is, a resistance to do so because physicians first of all, we're smart. And sometimes, you know, we don't exactly want to necessarily toe the line, if you will, if we see an initiative that would work, and especially with the economics of many health care systems being impacted by lower reimbursement rates across the board, any initiative that would not increase revenue or would slightly, you know, impact revenue in a negative way, even if it was good for the physicians, it's not good for the financial health of the system.
00:07:17:07 - 00:07:37:22
Dr. Matt Mazurek
So that leads to what I call moral injury. And that's the other, you know, aspect of all of this. The other coin, if you will, from the agency autonomy, is are the decisions being made in the best interest of our patients? And are these decisions really being made in the best interest of creating robust health care systems that are supportive of the physician?
00:07:37:24 - 00:07:42:06
Dr. Matt Mazurek
So it's out there and it can be done, but it takes a lot of work.
00:07:42:08 - 00:07:56:24
Justin Nabity
So in a way, you're saying that the leadership should be listening to the doctors on the team in the nation. Giving the recommendations to leadership and leadership should be figuring out how to take those recommendations and put them into action.
00:07:57:01 - 00:08:23:04
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Yes, I totally agree. And that's one of the advantages of being back in academia, having physician representation across the board and across the organization. It's already baked into the system, if you will. So and, you know, a system like Yale here, I think, you know, we do have that exceptional leadership. And people do listen. And the the initiatives are a little easier to actually implement.
00:08:23:06 - 00:08:37:24
Dr. Matt Mazurek
And I think a lot of the academic centers as a result, and the community systems and some of the larger national health care systems that have a huge footprint across the US, it's much, much more difficult to to to get some of those initiatives across. So.
00:08:38:00 - 00:08:40:22
Justin Nabity
Anthony you were going to say something,
00:08:40:24 - 00:08:49:06
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
Well I think one of the big things is not just the leadership listening to physicians, but the leadership being physicians, I think that that matters the most. We really lost
00:08:49:06 - 00:08:50:07
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Absolutely.
00:08:50:09 - 00:09:05:15
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
representation in most C-suite and most leadership. I mean, we had another, doc on a few weeks ago that spoke about that, how at his hospital, there are zero physicians that are in leadership at the whole hospital, and it just doesn't make sense, I think, Reid you went into it.
00:09:05:17 - 00:09:33:17
Reid Lancaster
Yeah I bang on this drum all the time. And it's true, 95% of administration is is made up of business people like Justin and I. And, when I played baseball, I played baseball for a very long time. I never played for a coach who didn't play themselves. And it just asinine to me that, you know, in the most important, sector of our economy, we have people who've never played the game, running the game.
00:09:33:19 - 00:09:37:00
Reid Lancaster
And, this is where this is where it's gotten us.
00:09:37:02 - 00:10:00:12
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Well, it has, but there's a real reason for that, too. And, you know, it's a numbers game. So, you know, a lot of the boards of directors, for example, in many hospitals, if you look at the composition, at least half of the members of the board of directors either own small businesses or are, you know, parts of larger corporations and have, you know, higher level executive type positions.
00:10:00:12 - 00:10:21:04
Dr. Matt Mazurek
So, you know, when I was on the board of directors, for example, down in Tucson at Saint Mary's, I was an ex-officio member as the chief of staff, and I learned a lot. But conversely, what was nice is being an ex-officio member on the BOD, I got to participate in a strategic plan, along with a couple of other physicians who were sitting on a board.
00:10:21:09 - 00:10:51:03
Dr. Matt Mazurek
So our perspective was very, very valuable. And I think having that as a balanced perspective on, you know, what may look good on paper without physician input will absolutely flat fail because the initiatives just don't align with either the doctor's workflow, their moral compass, if you will, or a host of variety of issues. Plus, there's a huge message when you don't have physicians in the C-suite.
00:10:51:05 - 00:11:13:15
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Physicians don't matter, nor does your voice matter. So it's also a symbolic, carving out, if you will, and leaving us kind of left in the dark. So it it almost becomes what I call the Wizard of Oz effect. When you're going down the hall at the end. And there's the, you know, gentleman behind the drape kind of yelling at everybody, and that, that just doesn't, doesn't help morale at all.
00:11:13:17 - 00:11:19:08
Dr. Matt Mazurek
So, and chief medical officers, of course, are getting caught in the crossfire
00:11:19:10 - 00:11:19:21
Reid Lancaster
That’s right .
00:11:19:21 - 00:11:25:15
Dr. Matt Mazurek
I was I was originally, wanting to pursue a chief medical officer job. I decided not to
00:11:25:17 - 00:11:26:03
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
The worst.
00:11:26:03 - 00:11:27:00
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
The worst. job.
00:11:27:02 - 00:11:45:13
Dr. Matt Mazurek
No, I decided not to. In the middle of Covid, I found out what it was all about. You have to try to balance physician interest, and you have to try to, represent what the hospital wants. And at the end of the day, whoever is writing your check for your for your pay and compensation is, you have to kind of, bend to whatever they want.
00:11:45:13 - 00:12:05:23
Dr. Matt Mazurek
And the bottom line is you're going to end up making decisions that are going to absolutely irritate and and make it make some, physicians quite unhappy. So that's not a fun place to be. So your shelf life is 3 to 5 years and you've burned enough bridges you have to leave town and start and set up shop somewhere else.
00:12:05:23 - 00:12:10:21
Dr. Matt Mazurek
And I'm sorry, that just doesn't sound like a good time to me. I didn't I didn't sign up for that.
00:12:11:01 - 00:12:25:21
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
It shouldn't be that way. The reason that happens is because I think anyone that takes on a CMO CMO role wants to help the physicians. So that's why they started. But like you said, the people that sign your check are not the physicians.
00:12:25:23 - 00:12:26:03
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Correct.
00:12:26:04 - 00:12:29:01
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
So you end up having to talk to both sides of your mouth unfortunately.
00:12:29:01 - 00:12:35:20
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
And you end up breaking promises to the physicians because you have to bend the knee to the corporation.
00:12:35:22 - 00:12:36:03
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Right.
00:12:36:04 - 00:12:45:24
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
And believe me, it's not that I've talked to many CMOs. I've looked at wanting to go that route as well. It is a thankless job and you have no friends at the end of it on both sides.
00:12:45:24 - 00:12:46:10
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Yeah,, right.
00:12:46:12 - 00:12:52:17
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
because you're not toeing the party line for the corporation and you've pissed off all the physicians at the same time.
00:12:52:22 - 00:13:14:15
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
But the reason for that is there isn't an alignment of the corporation and the physicians that is the key problem here. And that person gets put in the middle of this. These tectonic plates going in the opposite direction. That's why that person get’s pulled apart. Right. And we have to fix the key problem of the interest of the corporation should be the same as the interest of the physician, which at the end will help the interest of the patient.
00:13:14:17 - 00:13:17:08
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
And that's where we're missing it.
00:13:17:10 - 00:13:32:09
Dr. Matt Mazurek
And that's it. I think that the mismatch really is the partnership is gone. Now, when we were independent and when we were contracted to hospitals and got privileges, you know, hospitals used to court business from physicians.
00:13:32:11 - 00:13:32:19
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
Yeah.
00:13:33:00 - 00:14:00:23
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Okay. Because there were there was competition for resources especially, you know, you're you're a surgeon. I'm an anesthesiologist. Both you and I are keenly aware, you know, if you take your spine surgeries or if you take your total joint arthroplasties, for example, to the shop across town. Well, you're going to lose that business. So the unfortunately, the old adage one of my partners used to say is, hey, Matt, throughout your leadership journey, remember, money is the answer.
00:14:00:23 - 00:14:01:23
Dr. Matt Mazurek
What's the question?
00:14:01:23 - 00:14:02:24
Reid Lancaster
I was gonna day..
00:14:02:24 - 00:14:22:03
Dr. Matt Mazurek
but keep that keep. I always keep that in mind that a lot of decisions are going to be made around a table based purely on finances, so you have to kind of keep that in mind. Now, are those finances being used for a whole self interest in someone's, you know, self serving, or is this for the greater community good.
00:14:22:03 - 00:14:44:12
Dr. Matt Mazurek
So it is a blanket statement, but that's just it. And I think that the chief medical officer role is evolved. I, you know, used to be a physician who was long standing in the community, earned respect for their peers, had already been chair, and then they kind of sailed off into the sunset and they were respected. But now you get most chief medical officers.
00:14:44:12 - 00:14:58:13
Dr. Matt Mazurek
If, for example, if I was to apply for one of the jobs in the large national outfit, I'd end up moving to Colorado, California or wherever. So you dropped in. You're a stranger. Everyone's staring at you, wondering if you can be trusted or not.
00:14:58:15 - 00:14:58:20
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
Yep.
00:14:58:20 - 00:15:05:01
Dr. Matt Mazurek
And it's just it's a whole different ballgame across the board. So, you know, I've been staying clinical.
00:15:05:01 - 00:15:17:09
Dr. Matt Mazurek
I've been full time clinical. I've been one FTE my entire career, and I've still managed to pull off some things, which I don't know if it's from energy or what.
00:15:17:11 - 00:15:36:18
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
So what so to, to kind of go back to burnout, do you think there's less physicians or less people, less intelligent college kids going into medicine because of what they're seeing in the ecosystem of medicine right now?
00:15:36:20 - 00:16:00:24
Dr. Matt Mazurek
No, I, I do think that the the motive for going to medical school for some of the students is, is changing, as opposed to when I did 27 years ago, there's new data to suggest that some medical students have no intent to practice. They're going to get their MD, and they're either going to use their engineering background or business background to either join startups or other companies as consultants.
00:16:00:24 - 00:16:26:15
Dr. Matt Mazurek
So I think some of these students, they're entrepreneurs. I mean, the as much as other generations want to pick on the younger generation, they still have brains and they see the environment. And unfortunately, I think too, what's happening is some students are going into their clerkships and are witnessing what the attending physicians are going through, and their point blank saying, I do not want to be a part of this.
00:16:26:17 - 00:16:50:24
Dr. Matt Mazurek
And so I'm not necessarily saying that's true in academia so much, but in some of these programs that are out in the community, I think they're there at the impact there is very, very real. So, and again, it's very competitive, though. I mean, I'm doing some advising for premeds and med students, and there's an overwhelming number of students right now applying to medical school.
00:16:51:05 - 00:16:53:02
Dr. Matt Mazurek
I mean, it's competitive.
00:16:53:04 - 00:16:58:24
Reid Lancaster
I mean, you do we blame them though, like, do we blame the New Age physician at all?
00:16:59:01 - 00:16:59:07
Justin Nabity
How can you? They’re smart!
00:16:59:07 - 00:17:19:08
Reid Lancaster
They’re playing the game. That is okay. I can either go this direction and be miserable. And you talk about physician suicide, right? Talk about physician suicides are real thing. That's insane. That is what used to be the most. I remember when I was young and and, one time my dad went and paid the, the bill for someone.
00:17:19:08 - 00:17:30:23
Reid Lancaster
I didn't know who it was at this time. He's like, oh, that's our family physician. And paid the bill. I'm like, well, why'd you do that? You know, I just didn't know I was young. Well, why did you do that? That's what it used to be like
00:17:31:00 - 00:17:32:00
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Right?.
00:17:32:02 - 00:17:36:17
Reid Lancaster
Now, you get the young, smart people who are coming into this trying to make money and not be burnt out.
00:17:36:17 - 00:17:37:01
Reid Lancaster
Like.
00:17:37:01 - 00:17:37:10
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Right.
00:17:37:10 - 00:17:48:17
Reid Lancaster
That’s the choice that I would make. That only makes sense. And it's all it's all being pushed down from top, top to bottom by the almighty dollar. That's what it comes down to.
00:17:48:19 - 00:18:05:18
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Oh, it is absolutely. And I think the younger generation does seek and value work life balance. You know, I just did a keynote speech down in South Carolina for some of the nurse anesthetists. And I said, the millennials are getting picked on. I said, but you have to realize that boomers and Gen X, we're working ourselves to death.
00:18:05:20 - 00:18:26:21
Dr. Matt Mazurek
And and at the end of the day, you know, I, I even told them, I said, you know what? You know who's not going to be at your funeral? I can tell you this CEO of your organization won't be there, and a majority of your work mates won't be there, but your family and friends will be. And no one's going to say, gee, I wish they spent another day in the operating room or the office seeing patients.
00:18:26:23 - 00:18:49:06
Dr. Matt Mazurek
So, you know, unless that really floats your boat. And again, the work life balance for some people that maybe a 50 hour work week, for some it might be a 30 hour workweek. But they want flexibility. They also want they really want that agency. And they also want to, have a voice, make a difference. So I'm optimistic, really, about those who are sticking in, sticking it out.
00:18:49:08 - 00:18:49:21
Reid Lancaster
Okay.
00:18:49:21 - 00:19:09:06
Dr. Matt Mazurek
You know, and I just I'm working alongside these kids and they’re super fun. They're excited. They're smart. They get it. And they're listening to what I have to say. Like a sponge taking up water because I'm one of the older generation now who kind of gets it. And I also don't I just don't candy coat it, you know.So.
00:19:09:06 - 00:19:11:09
Justin Nabity
Thank you.
00:19:11:11 - 00:19:13:05
Dr. Matt Mazurek
I do not candy coat anything.
00:19:13:05 - 00:19:14:03
Dr. Matt Mazurek
I tell them it's a jungle out there.
00:19:14:05 - 00:19:30:24
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
I really appreciate that because because I think they need to hear this. Because I think as they go through medical school, they don't hear it. And, they're kind of just taught, “Do your thing, keep your head down, take care of patients.” And then they get out and they're like, wait a second, this is not the picture that I was painted.
00:19:31:01 - 00:19:42:22
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
That that leads to the burnout, too, because they aren't informed early. If they can be informed early and then they can decide what they want to do that makes them happy, they'll have a happier trajectory of the career. I think you know.
00:19:42:24 - 00:20:06:01
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Yeah, absolutely. I think that that's just it. You know, I tell them when once you get done with the learning the nuts and bolts of medicine and you get comfortable with the clinical work, I said the things that are going to impact you are, first of all, your schedule and your workload. And then you know whether or not you have that agency autonomy and whether or not you're being compensated fairly with with the rest of your peers, that's it.
00:20:06:01 - 00:20:26:02
Dr. Matt Mazurek
You know, at the end of the day, if any of those things are kind of out of balance, you're going to be seeking other employment or you're going to be ripe to be plucked from wherever you're at. And that's that's the other thing, too, that's impacting these students and residents, especially the new residents getting new jobs. I tell them the days of joining a practice and staying for 20 or 30 years are done.
00:20:26:02 - 00:20:44:13
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Just get that out of your head. You're probably going to be in your new job for maybe 3 to 5 years. Maybe they're less if they haven't told you the truth. Have an exit strategy as soon as you start and hire an attorney to look at your contracts and make sure you have out clauses that aren't going to burn you economically or professionally.
00:20:44:15 - 00:20:51:04
Dr. Matt Mazurek
And again, it's I have to say this, you have to really start acting more selfishly than you ever used to in the past. So.
00:20:51:06 - 00:21:03:10
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
That's where DocNation tries to come in and help those physicians out there is to look at all that before you sign on the dotted line, because right, there is a lot of people that end up having to move their whole family because they didn't read a part of their contract.
00:21:03:10 - 00:21:23:17
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Oh, right. No, absolutely. And I and I've been encouraging a lot of the residents now to kind of stay in academia for a while and continue to get more experience amongst a peer group that's supportive. And, you know, just academic medicine is just I had a feeling I was always going to circle back to it. I didn't know when exactly, because I love to teach.
00:21:23:19 - 00:21:48:04
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Like the environment, it's kind of ripe for a whole lot of interesting things, not just providing patient care, but, there are some real advantages. I mean, I always tell people too, and academia, you can hide a little bit, if you will, from. So, you know, I'm I am somewhat insulated. Not completely, but I feel somewhat insulated from a lot of the factors and, you know, economic impacts outside of these systems.
00:21:48:06 - 00:22:01:09
Justin Nabity
So that's one of the things when you get to your stage in life, you have the most experience and more knowledge. Most likely people are in better financial position than they were when they're younger.
00:22:01:11 - 00:22:01:24
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Yeah.
00:22:02:01 - 00:22:18:16
Justin Nabity
Socially connected, they know more people. You have so much more to offer. Your value is through the roof at this stage. And so for you to be there to to circle back and be a mentor and help the next generation, I heard through all the things you were saying about the doctor's voice has been lost.
00:22:18:22 - 00:22:33:16
Justin Nabity
And that's the big thing at Doc Nation, is we want to do everything that we can to empower that voice to come back. And so whether it's the board of directors or like Doctor Nichol, a few podcasts back, he's like, doctor can't own hospitals anymore. Like,
00:22:33:18 - 00:22:34:01
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Right.
00:22:34:06 - 00:22:42:10
Justin Nabity
What you said, Anthony, the the leadership or the, the stakeholders here don't align with the doctors because doctors are not the stakeholders anymore.
00:22:42:12 - 00:22:49:19
Justin Nabity
When in reality, as Reid was saying, they're the star player on the field like they there's no game, there's nothing to show up to watch. If you're the.
00:22:49:19 - 00:23:05:09
Reid Lancaster
Only one that truly knows how to go from home base to base, right? Only want like literally, they, the people call the shots, do not know how to round the bases. Now, they might be very, very good. We got to have business people helping run a business. We have to
00:23:05:11 - 00:23:06:00
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Absolutely. Right.
00:23:06:02 - 00:23:09:00
Reid Lancaster
Not at the rate of 95%. I want to say one thing real quick.
00:23:09:00 - 00:23:28:04
Reid Lancaster
I have a there's a young doc that just moved into my neighborhood, and he he heard about me through the grapevine and what I've done for, for a very long time is built a career supporting physicians. And he said, I just got to say something. I've been listening to a few of your podcasts and, and, I feel like you're, like, calling us out, like we wouldn't strike.
00:23:28:06 - 00:23:43:04
Reid Lancaster
And he's like, I got to tell you this right now. I'm not going to be doing what I'm doing today for 30 years, and I know a whole lot of other people who feel the same way, and we would be okay doing that. Obviously, I'm not going to put his name out there right now. One time, one day I want to have him on the podcast, but I do.
00:23:43:05 - 00:24:06:15
Reid Lancaster
I do see something with working for physicians over the last 15 years. The older generation that they don't even like sometimes to have the conversation about striking the younger generation the next 30 years of their life, seeing some of their, their peers commit suicide or at a minimum, be extremely depressed for a very, very long time, saying, I'm just not going to do this for 30 years.
00:24:06:15 - 00:24:30:08
Reid Lancaster
What's another option? And here's an option. And so that was a really enlightening conversation and encouraging. And what brought that up is Matthew, you you're you're spending so much time giving back to the next generation. If there's anything we can do, maybe host a monthly meeting with that group to help them with individual representation. I love that you said, hey, we got to start getting a little more selfish, and it's sad that we even have to talk that way, but.
00:24:30:08 - 00:24:30:14
Reid Lancaster
But
00:24:30:18 - 00:24:31:07
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Well it's true.
00:24:31:13 - 00:24:50:07
Reid Lancaster
DocNation exists to do just like a professional athlete has has an agent. That's what we exist to do and to get every individual doctor to have real representation and real knowledge, there should be no question marks. Realistically, there should be no research. Come to us, let us educate you. And that's one pillar. And the other pillar is obviously the conversation I have with that young doc.
00:24:50:07 - 00:25:01:02
Reid Lancaster
I mean, he was fired up. He's like, I love what you guys are doing, but don't get it twisted. There's a new generation who isn't going to be doing this for the next 30 years. And so tell me where to sign on the dotted line.
00:25:01:04 - 00:25:22:12
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Well. And see, you know, think to ask. Well that's then that's just it, you know, and I think too, the other thing, I mean, we didn't really touch on this, but the DEI efforts and the and the blowback, well, it's going to come boomeranged back with the younger generation. They're not going to tolerate, a lack of DEI and addressing some of the social determinants of health and everything else.
00:25:22:14 - 00:25:50:01
Dr. Matt Mazurek
You know, there's this there's a segment still of the younger generation. And I've told them, I said, I get this from you guys. You are, in a way, social justice warriors too. You are seeking equity, access, and you're you're wanting to view the health care system ideologically in that way. Unfortunately, boomers are retiried, and retiring. So that segment of the physician population definitely won't do it.
00:25:50:03 - 00:26:12:19
Dr. Matt Mazurek
I'm Gen X, we're kind of the oddball feral children that we're latchkey kids running around the neighborhood until the lights went out or the lights came on. Sorry. And so we're we're just in a different category as well. And we were taught by the boomers. So we have more in common with them both, work ethic wise, etcetera, than we do with the younger generation.
00:26:12:21 - 00:26:36:24
Dr. Matt Mazurek
But I'm really, really looking at the new Gen Zs and the Y's and the millennials as they come up, because each generation has something unique to offer. And they've been through something unique. And I just don't find the generational bashing to be helpful, even from a burnout perspective either. You know, there's and calling them lazy because they don't want to work hard.
00:26:37:01 - 00:26:39:07
Dr. Matt Mazurek
That's how is that helpful? You know.
00:26:39:12 - 00:26:39:20
Dr. Matt Mazurek
I mean?
00:26:39:21 - 00:26:44:18
Reid Lancaster
Well, they're getting paid a heck of a lot less than people who've been in practice for 30, 45 years.
00:26:44:20 - 00:26:45:11
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Well, they are.
00:26:45:13 - 00:27:08:18
Reid Lancaster
They're looking at they're looking at straightforward, factual numbers and saying, listen, this is so abusive. I don't care what anyone thinks of us. We're willing to fight. So, I'm just encouraged by that. You know, the truth is, Doc Nation shouldn't even exist. This company is successful, and it shouldn't be. There shouldn't be even a reason to have this company in terms of at least the second pillar of creating a union like.
00:27:08:20 - 00:27:09:17
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Right.
00:27:09:19 - 00:27:20:22
Reid Lancaster
Medical professionals shouldn't have to break an oath basically to, to strike, to, to give up their, their, their moral value, if you will.
00:27:21:01 - 00:27:21:06
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Right.
00:27:21:08 - 00:27:23:19
Reid Lancaster
Just to get treated right, you know,
00:27:23:19 - 00:27:24:09
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Correct.
00:27:24:09 - 00:27:36:23
Reid Lancaster
And so the the guy I was talking to yesterday said the smartest guy in residency, is in a hospital right now and has been for 30 days, and he never talked about suicide once, but he can't eat.
00:27:37:01 - 00:27:52:19
Reid Lancaster
He so he he so he's hooked up to a feeding tube because he's so broken. He's so broken because he's so stressed out. And it's like Anthony says all the time. You don't hear of a doctor, quitting medicine and and excited to step up to something else. You don't.
00:27:52:24 - 00:27:53:14
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Right.
00:27:53:16 - 00:27:57:04
Reid Lancaster
It is. It is the creme de la creme, profession.
00:27:57:06 - 00:28:03:16
Reid Lancaster
And it's always going to be a step down whether the money is is a step up or not.
00:28:03:18 - 00:28:22:22
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Right back to what you're saying, though. Are physicians now professionals or employees? If you look at the if you look at the other, you know, top box profession, if you will, engineering. But more importantly, I look at law and I look at attorneys, first of all, are attorneys talking about unionizing? Absolutely not. Are attorneys,
00:28:22:22 - 00:28:23:23
Dr. Matt Mazurek
That’s a good point!
00:28:24:00 - 00:28:26:01
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Are attorneys owned by private equity?
00:28:26:07 - 00:28:56:00
Dr. Matt Mazurek
No, they are not. Are attorneys being told how to practice law? No, they are not. Okay? So they are true professionals in the sense of the word, and they preserved it. But when physicians become employed and then they're punished for not following protocols, or they're punished for speaking out, what are we know? Are we professionals or are we just an employee that needs to toe the company line?
00:28:56:02 - 00:28:58:15
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
We're a cog in the machine. Yes.
00:28:58:17 - 00:29:23:16
Dr. Matt Mazurek
You know, that's and that's part of what's exacerbating burnout. We want to be treated as professionals. And, you know, Congress and state's attorney generals view us as professionals. Are we entitled to overtime? No, no. But if you ask an attorney, hey, you took your phone call every 15 minutes. That clock's running or every minute the clock runs. Yep.
00:29:23:16 - 00:29:26:10
Dr. Matt Mazurek
You know, they're a very expensive taxi cab.
00:29:26:12 - 00:29:28:16
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
Just an email that they send you,
00:29:28:18 - 00:29:29:13
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Of course,.
00:29:29:15 - 00:29:32:00
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
can cost you a hundred bucks.
00:29:32:02 - 00:29:33:19
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Exactly. That's. You know.
00:29:33:21 - 00:29:37:09
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
I tell them not to respond, I go, “Don't respond. Just read it. Don't respond.”
00:29:37:21 - 00:29:38:05
Reid Lancaster
(laughs)
00:29:38:06 - 00:30:06:09
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Exactly. No. So the thing is, I mean, the playbook, it's not that we can take, take the playbook from attorneys, but when we were independent and we did own ourselves, we did have that same professional image. And I think, too, when you're a business owner, when I was in Tucson, for example, as a shareholder partner for my own group, it was our business and it was our business to take care of our business.
00:30:06:09 - 00:30:28:23
Dr. Matt Mazurek
And of course, our business was the patient, but our business, too was the surgeon. Our business was taking care of the hospital, and it was mutual. And we shook our hands and we got the job done. But if we're going to be brought into the fold as employees and then not treated as professionals, forget about it. That's where unions are going to end up becoming a reality.
00:30:28:23 - 00:30:29:09
Reid Lancaster
That's right.
00:30:29:13 - 00:30:31:13
Dr. Matt Mazurek
And I had discussed this.
00:30:31:15 - 00:30:36:22
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
One thing I want to end with is when you had that business, health care was better than it is now.
00:30:36:24 - 00:30:37:18
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Yes it was.
00:30:37:18 - 00:30:57:11
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
The patients had better care 15, 20 years ago than they do now. And everyone in America can agree on that. And that's why I keep saying Doc Nation or anyone needs to come to get the physicians need to come together, no longer just for the physician, but for the patient, because health care is dying because of the system that physicians are getting put into.
00:30:57:13 - 00:31:01:03
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
That's that's where I'll end it. But it's the truth.
00:31:01:05 - 00:31:03:07
Dr. Matt Mazurek
I agree.
00:31:03:09 - 00:31:04:13
Justin Nabity
Thanks, Matt.
00:31:04:15 - 00:31:06:12
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Thank you very much.
00:31:06:14 - 00:31:07:12
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
Great to meet you.
00:31:07:14 - 00:31:08:15
Reid Lancaster
Thanks, Matt.
00:31:08:17 - 00:31:08:21
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
Yeah, you bet.
00:31:08:21 - 00:31:10:14
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
really appreciate your time.
00:31:10:16 - 00:31:11:06
Dr. Anthony Giuffrida
Thank you.
00:31:11:08 - 00:31:13:14
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Thanks. Thanks for inviting me. I really appreciate it.
00:31:13:19 - 00:31:16:17
Reid Lancaster
Absolutely. We appreciate you. Thanks for giving back.
00:31:16:19 - 00:31:17:20
Dr. Matt Mazurek
You bet. All right.
00:31:17:20 - 00:31:18:10
Reid Lancaster
Bye bye.
00:31:18:12 - 00:31:20:20
Dr. Matt Mazurek
Bye bye.
00:31:20:22 - 00:31:37:17
Justin Nabity
This has been the Doc Nation podcast. If you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe, rate and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you are listening to us. Your feedback really helps us reach more listeners like you. We'd also love to hear your thoughts and any topics you'd like us to cover in future episodes.
00:31:37:23 - 00:31:45:07
Justin Nabity
Don't forget to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn for updates, behind the scenes content, and join the conversation. Thanks for listening.