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The environment around us is a swirling vortex of chaos, but you can navigate it when you have an anchor that can keep you steady. Each episode, Liz Herl dives into data driven strategies and real world tactics with Dr. Tim Caldwell to help you become more grounded and centered in a world that is constantly shifting and changing. Learn to effectively navigate family strife, career challenges and handle the anxiety of the unknown that the news is constantly bombarding us with. Liz is a Licensed Clinical Marriage and Family Therapist and Dr. Caldwell is a retired primary care physician and personal trainer. You can lean on their decades of experience to find stability and peace without having to control circumstances or people around you. You can be anchored in chaos.
AIC_Ep29
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[00:00:00]
Liz Herl: Hello everyone. Welcome back to Anchored in Chaos podcast. Today I am here with Dr. Calwell once again. Today we come to you a little bit more sobering, I would say.
Tim Caldwell: Yes. Yes. This is a pretty heavy topic, but it's, it's been a heavy week. It's been a very heavy week. It's been a
Liz Herl: heavy week.
I'm gonna speak to that a little bit more, but I'm sure our listeners probably are aware of where that's [00:01:00] going. But today I wanna talk about, I really wanna call it, you know, the name of our podcast is called Anchored in Chaos. And the idea behind that is understanding how to anchor yourself in a chaotic vent of self-awareness and humility.
And being able to interact fairly with yourself and others and do so to the best of your ability. So I think sometimes when they hear the name of our podcast, it seems like that life should be chaotic. Well, life is chaotic. And that kind of leads into the world right now is in a upheaval, in a state of significant chaos.
Everyone is very confused and not sure what's going on and where to go and maybe what's happening.
The Assassination of Charlie Kirk
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Liz Herl: And we are gonna speak significantly to the assassination of Charlie Kirk. And, but the events leading that we've had not leading up to, I don't wanna say that, but we've had this young woman being slain [00:02:00] in, I believe that was, a train, correct?
Tim Caldwell: That's correct, yeah.
Liz Herl: Yes. And the mass shootings that have now taken place in the Catholic school and the crime that we're seeing, the intensity of hostility is it's kind of, altering us all. Would you agree with that as well?
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, well put Liz. So, just a brief recap on the last events.
On nine 10, so just two days ago, Charlie Kirk was assassinated at a col on a college campus doing what he had always done. And that is he'll go out and do public encounters and he would invite people who disagreed with his opinions to come up to the mic first, which is a very common and appreciated approach towards having a discussion with the people who want to have it most, in this particular event on a college campus, he was assassinated by somebody who shot him from a distance. And [00:03:00] as a result, the whole world is thrown into turmoil. Charlie Kirk, if you don't know who he is, I welcome you to go look at his thousands and thousands of hours. Was a brilliant man, and I admired him greatly.
I too am been, have been touched by his death as I would with any great leader I was. I'm touched by the loss of Martin Luther King and many other people. They were completely misunderstood for what they were standing for. And right now what we see is we see people really conflicted by what do we do now?
Are we now at a turning point, ironically put which was the name of Charlie Kirk's organization. He employed thousands of people. He had hundreds of thousands of people and with Turning Point, but as you and I were discussing earlier, those people who have conservative values who are, biblically [00:04:00] schooled and anchored in their beliefs, have a sense of loss that such a good man was taken from us.
And then we also have those on the other side that would oppose who Charlie Cook or Charlie Kirk was, or who they believed him to be. And that that was somebody who spoke with a bunch of hate speech and tried to rile people up and cause division. And that's what we want to talk about today, because you and I have.
An agreement that regardless of what side you took this affects the whole world. I've seen, I've seen vigils in New Zealand mm-hmm. Australia. Absolutely. All around the world. He was an amazing man. So let's talk about that.
Liz Herl: Well, and we, yes. I wanna get into that.
Reflecting on Charlie Kirk's Legacy
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Liz Herl: I also want to, I want to encompass this, that this is the current extremely unfortunate highlight right now in our social media.
But Charlie Kirk's assassination [00:05:00] comes. After what we are experiencing in our world, where I'm talking about mass shootings, I am talking about people just trying to get home from work and horrific things happening to them. Mm-hmm. And so the state that we're in back to, when I say the state of chaos, that this kind of comes to a head when it is such a public assassination.
And it's just on our differences. And I wanna speak non-politically today to the best of my ability because I am, really agitated. I'm so tired of the political stance. I don't care. To be honest, and I know that's not a fair statement to some of our listeners or viewers, I do care.
But this isn't about right or left in my opinion. I'm speaking for myself here. This is about our humanity. This is about how we are. Looking at one another through human eyes of that we are a people. who have can Be Very [00:06:00] outspoken and we can differ in our belief systems.
We should be able to do so fairly without our lives being taken. Mm-hmm. And that's kind of the frustrating, I think there is a sense of, when I talk about hostility, there's a lot of anger right now. There's lot of confusion and there is most significantly a lot of fear.
Tim Caldwell: Sure. Agreed. I appreciate it and I'm glad that we are taking a non-political view on this.
We will pepper in some beliefs. We'll pepper in some, maybe even some language that. Touches on ideology, but most importantly is we're not gonna, we're not going to label things with a big R for Republican, big D for Democrat and big L for liberal. What we hope to do is embrace true objectivity. And that is correct.
The idea is that I can see both sides. I hope that I can try to [00:07:00] understand both sides. I can reason through both sides. I can even anticipate how some people would act from both sides.
Addressing Hostility and Fear
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Tim Caldwell: However we need to arrest the hostility and fear. Yes, because that in itself is so detrimental that it will either leave us toothless and blind, or it will leave, lead us all into complete and utter chaos.
Mm-hmm. Because we will never heal this divide. And quite frankly, politics is a cesspool. I've sat city councils, I've sat school boards. I've been directors in different positions. I can tell you that politics is a real bitch and it's really confusing how some people think that they are doing good and the ultimate outcome is really, really bad.
Liz Herl: Right. At times. Absolutely. Yeah. So I think this for me versus a political verbiage is this comes down to our belief [00:08:00] systems. We all have a set of understandings of morals, values and belief systems that can be spiritual and we. Act on those, act in accordance to our belief. in whatever that may be.
And one of the things that is frustrating for me is that is exactly what Charlie Kirk was doing. He was acting in accordance to his belief system to encourage others to maybe be more open-minded to what he's saying.
I was already a follower before, but now we are inundated with Charlie Kirk videos. That really kind of show his work. But there is points where it maybe appeared antagonist a little bit like I'm trying to but one thing that I just want us to understand is back to our humanity, is that we should be able to have speaking.
Engagements and speaking effectively for ourselves in a productive manner that yes, it might light us up, it might give us some edge and maybe not [00:09:00] sit very well for the other person who's maybe feeling offended at the time, but to the fact that we get it to a point of this level of hostility and violence.
That is, that's the
Tim Caldwell: agreed what we both had discussed earlier, and we always find this interesting in the conversations that we have, is to embrace the objectivity is not just fair, but it's scientific, right? It's, let's look at all possible answers all possible solutions, all possible causes, and let's decipher from fact not fiction.
Let's remove the emotional components. It's not easy. Especially when you're. Intimately and passionately involved with a cause. But quite frankly, you and I have made the same point that Jordan Peterson would make. At some point you'd hope you can ask yourself the question, why does it matter so much to you?
Mm-hmm. Because you have Right, you have some, you have some [00:10:00] baggage there. Yep. And that baggage becomes very irritated and somebody along the line comes along and whether intentionally or unintentionally tears off a bandaid or makes a fresh cut and you thought that you were kind of over that, or, or that has been a discussion that just hasn't come up, but now you're wounded again.
So, Dr. Peterson, who we are very much. Huge admirers of his work asks the question, why does this bother you so much? Mm-hmm. And in there you're going to unearth all of these personal components, all these personal items. And I think that we've heard way too often, if you don't like what I have to say, just move on, turn the page, swipe right, swipe left change the channel.
Mm-hmm. When Charlie Kirk would go to these activities on campus, he was open forum. He just set up a tent, had some microphones, let everybody [00:11:00] speak. And you kind of wonder why, why would you go to something that just made you upset? Why would you stay? Why would you not want to engage in a conversation and why would you even
Liz Herl: go?
Well, and I would tell you a lot of people's feedback to that could be for the protection of other people. Sure. Like, I'm there speaking on the behalf of myself in multiple millions of other people. Sure. Or thousands. And if I don't stop your rhetoric or shut you down, then I'm not doing my part for my people, which in some sense, people would say that Charlie Kirk was doing the very same thing for, and it isn't about your people.
It is about a belief system.
The Power of Belief Systems
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Liz Herl: And that's just one of the things I, I work with individuals with this all the time. I call it speaking effectively for self and how, and what that looks like. And that is something that I think Charlie did so very effectively to the point that it agitated other people that he wasn't very emotionally responsive to people.
That was. [00:12:00] Becoming emotional because he could get I would say have authority, but not fall into name calling and things of that nature. Right now, he would call someone, he would just say to someone, well, you're this part of this party. And again, I'm not trying, trying to remove the political people.
Sure. He is. And he would just point out, and this is why I believe that to be the case, because of what you're sharing with me now. So he was clear, and I, I know people would disagree with this, but I think he was incredibly respectful to try and give you Sure. A moment to kind of share your feedback.
Sure. And so the point of this topic today is what do we do to address the fear, the uncertainty, and the chaos as people, as human beings towards one another? And how do we come together? We've been trying to. Address that multiple different ways in this podcast of coming together and unifying in a healthy way and interacting with one another even when [00:13:00] we don't believe the same thing.
Tim Caldwell: That's right. And, and to try to find a solution without having to abandon all that I believe in. Or take on things that I don't believe in. I wanna take on a position because this is how it affected me. I was very emotional. Still am it's kind of a fragile thing because I view Charlie Co as a warrior, and I know people may not understand that, but I come from an all military family.
I come from an all military history all the way back to the Civil War. The people who I've known and. Been made aware of in my life have all been people who've believed in fighting for what they believed in. That's literally how I was steeped into my adult life. And having been in the military wearing two different uniforms for my country, I wanted people to understand that I'm willing to do what many people never will.
And as a war fighter, [00:14:00] I want people to understand that. I don't really expect people to understand why I do it, but I don't appreciate when people disrespect why I do that.
Liz Herl: You fall in, if I can challenge you there. Yeah. To the very same thing that Charlie had to interact with people disrespected him.
That's for his belief system.
Tim Caldwell: But the difference was that Charlie had a really great ability to. Take a very humble stance. Did he
Liz Herl: phenomenally? Yes.
Tim Caldwell: Now there you'll see lots of times when Charlie could throw, he could throw some barbs every, so I Sure. Some very sophisticated barbs.
He's human. But the interesting thing about how he did that was it never devolved into name calling, which he frequently got and never got into an assumption of party affiliations or radical thought or anything like that. But he was careful not to sabotage his position or to attack theirs.
Right. He would do what [00:15:00] I admire very gr very much is just simply ask questions. Why do you think like that?
Liz Herl: Mm-hmm.
Tim Caldwell: That's a, and then
Liz Herl: he would challenge the thought
Tim Caldwell: and then he would challenge the thought. Right?
Liz Herl: Or the belief, I should say. And
Tim Caldwell: I would dare say most who encountered him, either thought he was so irritating.
That his, his statistical knowledge, his ability to, he's a bib, a file a guy retains information like a computer. Yeah. He's great at it. And sometimes it can sound like he's just beating you over the head. He's just defeating you. That's, that's a media thing. Mm-hmm. That's what we see in these encounters.
We're always looking for the gotcha moment. We're always looking for the Watergate Perry Mason moment where a person breaks down and says, you're right, I'm wrong, I'm wrong, I'm wrong. You caught me. That's not how Charlie Kirk worked, and he was really good at what he did, and I think that was an irritating quality.
But the point I wanna make more as being somebody [00:16:00] who is a war fighter and somebody who would now take the sight of, well, you killed one of mine, so I'm gonna kill 10 ears. And I don't mean to. I know that sounds really ss and brutal to say, but I was touched by the fact that I get so angry that I'm, I'm literally cleaning my guns.
Right Now, this, this isn't, I didn't actually do that, but this is, these are the things as I know people that are radical this, and I know people are radical that, but I need to talk those guys off the ledge. Right. And that's
Liz Herl: where I'm wanting to deescalate the host hostility, find the common
Tim Caldwell: ground.
Liz Herl: Right. That we can, we can all operate together. Right. So I don't think it's, we can all get along. It's, we can operate beside one another. And how we do that is imperative to our mental health and our way of life. Absolutely. In my opinion. And being able to. [00:17:00] Navigate that I think is really challenging.
So when we're talking about anytime we're challenged so we're in a, we're in a conversation with someone and we're kind of feeling like, did they kind of mean that as a jab or, and there's now in these situations, if we were to ref reference back to the car, Charlie Kirk, forums. That's not what I'm referring here.
I'm trying to narrow it down to everyday life of our interactions. So what I'm saying is we're having an interaction and we're starting to feel a little maybe picked at or, you know, well, I think that was sarcastic or rude. And then our response immediately has a highlighted area of defense.
So maybe our tone changes we're a little bit more edgy. We become sarcastic. We make light of something that they're saying or about that person. And so when those little elements start to change, everything changes in the dynamic. Everything starts to break down because the other person, if there is a misunderstanding then picks up on all of that.
And then now we're starting to engage in more of a hostile encounter. Sure. [00:18:00] And now, in these instances, it was very heated, it was very lively. People knew that they were going into share their opinions and but. We can do that. I'm not saying that we can, we won't be able to interact with one one another without having heat into it.
But when we walk away from conversations do we walk away feeling humiliated, shamed, belittled, berated. And I will say that you also have an accountability here. You hear us always talking about accountability and responsibility, but you have an accountability here.
Especially again, I'm talking about to this specific form, you are putting yourself in a spotlight.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: So to feel that maybe someone really, got you. In the encounter of that conversation that they walked away looking at appearance as the winner of that, and you walked away feeling defeated and then more humiliated because you're surrounded by thousands of people.
Yeah. [00:19:00] And now you feel really low. And then that just sits in this level of anger of this was not right, Liz, because, and that's brewing something.
Tim Caldwell: I couldn't agree more, Liz. This is exactly the Dr. Phil forum thing that I object to completely, is that if you're going to say you're gonna bring somebody or invite somebody into a program and help them, show them that they're wrong, you don't go after them and make your point and let the audience cheer.
Mm-hmm. Because there's nothing worse than being not only called on something. And being proven wrong. But now the whole crowd now, now this embarrassment is just piled on me. Oh, now I'm a fool in front of not just all the people here, but the entire world, because there's cameras everywhere.
Liz Herl: Right. But my pushback to that is when I'm talking about accountability and responsibility to people, you are putting yourself yes.
In that position. Yes. You stand there in whatever light, whether it be this mic or any other light, whenever you stand in your belief, you'd [00:20:00] better be standing as strong as possible and you better feel like you're on an island, because that's something that kind of leads into where I wanna go here of You have to be able to stand in your own belief system strongly. Yes. And that's just it.
Tim Caldwell: Yes. But the, the caveat to that is you can be as passionate as you want, but you can't tilt at every windmill and think just because you think this is this way that it's Right. Right. And that's, you can be one.
Look, Liz, you've heard me say this a thousand times. Whenever I engage in some type of contentious debate or even arguments, which doesn't happen very often, I am 100% open to the fact I'm 100% wrong. And I have had eye opening moments in my life mostly 'cause I gave you those, but yes.
Okay. Whatever. But my point behind all that is if you're going to step up, know that you're now on the world stage and what you say is, going to be immortalized and your image. If you're gonna step up and you're gonna encounter [00:21:00] somebody like a force of Charlie Kirk, Matt Walsh.
Ben Shapiro. Jordan Peterson. Jordan Peterson, you better have your A game. Yeah. And you have be, you had better have real information and evidence and you the problem able to have the receipts and cite your work because that's something I can hold you to here. You're
Liz Herl: absolutely, so what I have in what I see, and this is something and I relate back to our mental health in our society, is I have a feeling of self-righteousness.
Mm-hmm. And that is my belief. That is my evidence. That is my facts. And I have a whole army of self-righteous people by the way. And I am of any, this ends, I'm gonna. Keep saying this is not political. This is emotional in the fact that I feel this way, therefore it should be validated for my feeling and you're putting me down.
You're belittling me. You are causing harm to other people. You feel that way. Okay. [00:22:00] That's you. Everyone can believe whatever they wanna believe. You do not have to believe what I believe. That's right. And we can argue that, I guess I would say, and I would rather it be a conversation than an argument.
Sure. But whichever way we can do that without violence. And here's the thing I wanna say, obviously right now there's a lot of alleged, I don't know if these are the facts, gen, I mean, it looks factual, but you know, with social media, that's like, and I wanna speak to the fact that they have apparently allegedly found the individual that caused this attack to happen to Trump.
Right? Right. And i'm going to stand in something that I might get a lot of of hate for and that's fine and I, I am willing to take that on. And that is this apparently this 22-year-old young man is the individual that fired the shot and then they found the weapon and then the casings and they had rhetoric on there of their belief.
I would say that way. And I'm not, I wanna be clear, I'm not trying to dance around what we all know, because you can look up everything I'm talking about. I'm trying to [00:23:00] remove all the names, stuff off of everything. I'm trying to bring it back to humanity and that we're people, so I'm not trying, they're like, oh, she's in there dancing around what it all is.
Well look it up online. You know what I'm talking about. But I'm trying to make a point in that we are people and we are human beings and I have a level of sadness for this young man in his family. Yes. Because there is something. That went terribly wrong somewhere. Yes. Without question. And that led this young man to make this decision
Tim Caldwell: now as an example, being both military and being EMT certified, and I have been around first responder positions almost my entire life, and as a retired primary care physicians, I've seen horrific things, horrific accidents. First on scene four, horrific accidents.
Liz Herl: Well, I wish I could unsee what I saw.
Tim Caldwell: I know, I know. That's, that's absolutely the truth. Is we, if we could that just, that just that [00:24:00] is PTSD. Absolutely. It literally rapes your innocence. Mm-hmm. It takes it from you. Don't go see stuff like this. But what I want to make a point of is that I was a part of the XL shooting. 17 people were shot.
Four people died where I caught some. Grief was during the memorial and during the sessions of mourning prayer that I would have in my area for my, for the workers of the plant is that I would mention the death of the person who committed the crime. And people thought that was not right. Yeah. But I would venture very, very much argue that that young man, Sedgwick Ford, who is now passed and not part of this earth, something broke.
Mm-hmm. Or something had been so pushed in his life that the critical mass just couldn't support his own, his own ability to hold back. And he left work, [00:25:00] got high, got guns and shot people all the way back to the factory and people in the factory. And as a result, there are people whose lives will never be the same.
And there are people who will never go home to dinner to see their families. Including. Cedric Ford, correct? I'm not gonna speak to his affiliations. I I'm not gonna speak to any of those things. I'm just gonna tell you, you have to be really broken, either long term or short term to go to those extremes.
And it is a shame because his mother will never see him again, right? Their family, their friends will always have questions. How did he get like this?
Liz Herl: Well, and this is where I'm going to cases that you're just speaking of there, but I'm actually going into the fact that when we say, you know, something went terribly wrong.
I cannot impress upon anyone hearing me or anyone, I engage with the power of our words and our insight is incredible. [00:26:00] Mm-hmm. And it is incredible to our young people. And that is something that obviously I really, truly believe Charlie Kirk knew more than anything because that was his stand, that was his whole point, was to reach young people.
From his belief, PO belief stands on what he wanted to encourage them to do. That's it. And it's powerful. But the opposite of somebody else's viewpoint is just as powerful. And whatever you are taking in, regardless of your age, but significantly are young people. I've shared with you that I have, I've seen individuals that had horrific in incidents of incest happen to them that they did not realize was not common.
And yeah, because it was so normalized in their interaction that they did not discuss, they could not understand why. Not every family operated this way because that brain training of how things are normalized and how you are justified and how it's the correct thing is installed and then we respond accordingly.
Tim Caldwell: Yes.
Liz Herl: So [00:27:00] then, you know, when I wanna speak to the other half of what we're talking about here, because perhaps you're like, well, Liz, and what does that mean that there's all these people going around? No. It means that we have to do better as human beings when we're talking to one another.
Yeah. And I, that's
Tim Caldwell: really what it comes back to. And just, I'm gonna backfill just a little bit with that in the conversation, was this particular young female was at some point in her lifetime approached about her lifestyle at home. Mm-hmm. She was in an incestuous mm-hmm. Relationship with the father.
And when questioned about that, she thought it was totally normal that I have sex with my father.
Liz Herl: Correct. and, and very normal tones, normal body language, absolutely. Language. It was all very normal. It was confusing. As strange as, as as anyone else listening and the law enforcement and, provider as myself being there, there's the shock of like, how are you thinking this is normal?
It was abnormal that her friends did not do that.
Tim Caldwell: Right. She interpreted that as being normal. She actually interpreted the other view is why in the world don't you guys do that. Correct. [00:28:00] Because this is, this is my loved one saying he, this person loves me and that they should be doing this, and this is like me doing my homework and then I can go
Liz Herl: play.
And to many, I, I'm sure the reason I speak to this and it's very. Horrific. And it breaks my heart. And that is, it is, it's grotesque
Tim Caldwell: and
Liz Herl: dark. Well, that this young man that took Charlie Kirk's life had no doubt think he had this back, this support potentially. And of course, I am making a level of assumption of, of small amount of knowledge.
To be clear, I'm not gonna act like that, but I will, I will speak to what I'm aware of. And that is if you feel like you are going to be justified or even a hero mm-hmm. In some people's eyes. Mm-hmm.
Tim Caldwell: Yes.
Liz Herl: People are gonna really think this is a big deal. Well, it's a big deal. All right. That's right.
And it's life alter. It was life altering for our country. It was, and it's, it's life altering for our country. And this young man and his family and Sure. The Kirk's family [00:29:00] and our country.
Tim Caldwell: I went to school with one of the teachers at Columbine during the first Columbine shooting.
An amazing. A woman forever scarred by the fact of loss of life. But those gentlemen began forming a cookbook for people in these types of shootings, is that they thought that they were doing good. Right? Right. They, their manifestos spoke to the evil that they would undo and they would take their lives as martyrs.
Most of us know rationally. That is not only not the answer, it's absolutely the wrong answer. The wrong thing to do. The wrong thing to do. Right. And yet they think they're doing good. Mm-hmm. And are they trying to just justify this in their own minds or are they trying to convince you that I'm right and you're gonna see that I'm right.
Right. I'm gonna make you see that I'm right. Mm-hmm. And a lot of these situations, these young people, I think secretly they. If they don't honestly [00:30:00] think they are gonna get away with it, they're happy to be caught for doing it. They're happy to be potentially be accused of doing it. Right. Because
Liz Herl: there is the idea, a new
Tim Caldwell: celebrity,
Liz Herl: right?
If, if you will. But I, I believe that there is in everything, and again, these are just pictures that you see online, which tell you very, very little. But there's something in my spirit that I speak to for the person that I am, that when I see the picture of this young man, that there is something very lost in there Absolutely.
In that picture. And those eyes are something very vacant and not necessary. You know, it's just very empty. And it's really, really unfortunate. These are evil acts. These are. These are harsh acts.
Tim Caldwell: Liz, now I want to, and we spoke to this only briefly, but I now want to speak to the simple fact of the family he came from.
Is that so many would anticipate that he's part of a [00:31:00] crazy group of this or he must have been raised in a house full of this, or just crazy lunacy, living life like wild dogs. That isn't true. And very much to the credit of brilliant men like Thomas Sowell and Larry Elders. They will bring, quite frankly, these facts to light.
And that is, you could have twin brothers, and this has been known. You could have twin brothers raised by the same mother and father in the exact same home, same food, same daily routine, and they could diverge on paths that don't, you would never guess that they were even related. One could be a pastor, the other could be a failed drug user.
The makeup of what happens is literally biblical. It is literally biblical. It's absolutely, it's it's Cain and able, and to try to understand it is probably beyond us. Right. But I want people to recognize simply is that he came from a [00:32:00] family where his father was in law enforcement.
Yes. 20 over 20 years. Over 20 years. Yeah. And his father was and a pastor mm-hmm. Were two of the people who finally made the identification, turned it, turned his name and identification and even the son over into custody too. Correct. Yeah. And
Liz Herl: this is all, we are getting all this information from social media and so the evidence to that we're not really certain, but with what we are receiving, that is all what we're reading.
That's what we're reading. And yeah. And I think that is, it's in impactful in its nature. I guess I would say it that way. But, but,
Tim Caldwell: but you know, the, the, the purpose
Liz Herl: of us bringing up the Yeah. This individual. 'cause I wanna make sure people are not feeling like we're highlighting this. 'cause this isn't about making this this horrific act.
Anything other than Nate calling it what it is, which is beyond a tragedy. I wish there was a different word to, to use. And that is, this is all wrong. It's just all wrong. It's wrong for this young man. It's [00:33:00] definitely wrong for Charlie Kirk and his family and his beautiful daughters. It's very hard for me as a mother.
My heart is beyond broken for Erica.
Heartfelt Reflections on Family and Loss
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Liz Herl: Mm-hmm. Like, I, I watched her his wife. Yes. Erica Kirk. Make her for first public address, which I think is phenomenally strong. Yeah. Amazing for her to do. But it's, it's heartbreaking because I am a mother and I have three almost grandchildren.
They're beautiful. They're my whole world. And it's something I will speak to that Charlie talks about all the time, or God bless him, he had talked about. And that is, there is nothing more beautiful than having a family and having children. And my children are the light of my life. It is the greatest gift that God could give me to be a mother.
Tim Caldwell: Sure.
Liz Herl: And I take that gift very seriously. And as a mother knowing that she has a one and 3-year-old child, children, I should say. I don't know. And, and we saw the beautiful, of [00:34:00] course moments that Charlie had with his daughter and he. Raved about his family and everything he did.
Tim Caldwell: Yes.
Liz Herl: So it's not that that is anything new.
And he loved he loved God in his, in his family. And, and that's pretty much the direction that he, he went in, which was beautiful. But for her to have to move forward, this is gonna be, I pray for her. I pray for that. I pray for all of them. I pray for all of us. Yes. The,
Tim Caldwell: the tragedy behind all this is so deep and so immense.
The Impact of Misunderstanding and Anger
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Tim Caldwell: The cause is what I want to focus on, the impact is irreversible. For instance, his family was standing just feet away. His baby daughter ran to his father, Charlie Kirk, who is now, has a hole in his neck and dying because she was startled by the noise. Those things impact me. Really, really strongly.
The problem is, and this is the one we [00:35:00] may never get an answer to, is people are angry at people for who they think they are. Correct. They really don't know that person. Right. And I will e equivocate that to committing suicide. I used to think
suicide was a very cowardly thing to do. Mm-hmm. A very, very selfish thing to do. Because if you're not able to cut it and you kill yourself, you're just weak. And look at the people you hurt until. You meet people who are in real pain. Right. And as a primary care physician, I can tell you, I've met people who are, they will gladly pay you for a handful of pills.
Mm-hmm. To kill to, to, in the suffering, to silence The pain and the suffering may not be physical. The suffering may be day postpartum has destroyed more lives because it's misunderstood. Misdiagnosed just overlooked. Not even [00:36:00] considered. But that pain and suffering does not have to be a physical trait.
It is a mental, spiritual state too. And that what really irritates me is that people don't even know the person they're mad at in today's societies because it's. Soundbites and 30 seconds Correct. 32nd takes. Mm-hmm. And after somebody says somebody, there's somebody there to give this editorial on.
How wrong this guy is and how this guy's obviously looking to whatever.
Liz Herl: Yeah. Right. And that's, that's what it appears to have come down to is that this just comes down to our differences. When people would call Charlie names or state aside, or a belief that he had, he would say adamantly, I I'm not that.
I'm just not that.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: And then he would give an understanding as to why he was not that, why he believed whatever the name was and, and things of that nature. But that just rattled people [00:37:00] because their belief of what a fascist is, is this, and his belief of what a fascist is, looked differently.
Yeah. And that's where they clashed heads. Yeah. You know, and that's where we would get lost.
The Parasitic Mind and Societal Divides
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Tim Caldwell: This is part of the parasitic mind. Dr. Gad said, speaks about this, wrote a book about it, a really good book. You've read it? Yes, I've read it, yes. Yeah. And this is how society plants a seed and the seed grows and most, most horribly it's absolutely false.
Everything about it is false, but it's been pushed into society now that it has to be an acceptance. We could discuss philosophy, but he covers quite clearly historically how these things actually started fostering themselves.
What I want to add to that is that the people don't even understand what the word fascism is. And we, you'll see in interviews on the street, people yelling, FU fascist, FU fascist, and then they'll be interviewed. Do you know what a fascist is? Well, I'm not really sure [00:38:00] what that Well,
Liz Herl: a lot of people that's, that's exactly okay.
Whether it be fascist, whether it be, what other word? Right. When you're called out on saying something that you're angry about and you can't speak to it. Sure. Which is what made, this is what Charlie got everybody riled up about, because this is the point I make. He would say. What is that? And then when they could not speak to it, they got more angry.
'cause here comes shame. That's right. Humiliation. That's right. Belittlement. And that's not really, I mean, the shame I can get, but the belittlement and all that, this
Tim Caldwell: is part of the mentality of the mob. And you've heard me say this many times before, I have this philosophy that the biggest cowards in the world are the man, three people deep in a mob.
Right. They're not on the front lines getting pepper sprayed. They're not getting poked. They're not up against police shields. They're not up against police bears. They're three feet back screaming, kill 'em. Break the barrier or show them. Mm-hmm. But when the lines are broke, those people run like cowards.
They just run like cowards. I find that detestable. I come [00:39:00] from a world again, of athletics and confrontation and you know, in the military there, there was a time in the military you wanted to solve something. You put on some of the loves and your instructor, your CEO or commanding, they'd make, they'd find a way to, we're gonna iron this out if you guys feel like you need to fight, put on some gloves, but we're gonna have some rules to this and when we get done, there'll be a clear winner and you're gonna accept the winner.
And I know that that isn't gonna happen in society, but you know, there are plenty of times when it just seems so simple to me is, you know, maybe we should do. Like they used to do. Instead of all of these armies fighting, why don't you pick your best?
And I'll pick my best. And they can fight. And for one year we'll live under that kind of rule is that our modern day democracy kind of seems like we're going that way. I, yeah. And it certainly isn't feasible. It certainly isn't rational. But those people knew, typically, the people who made those decisions were, let's not all kill each other.
Let's just [00:40:00] have your best and my best have at it. And we'll live under that rule for a year, and then we'll revisit it in a year. And see if it's viable. Now that's very simplistic. I know that that's caveman mentality and that's
Liz Herl: all the things I would completely disagree with as a therapist.
I know I would like all the things I completely disagree with because
Tim Caldwell: but I'm trying to express my side of the coin. Coin. Absolutely, absolutely appreciate it. Is that male? Sure. Is that military? Sure. Is that discipline? Sure, there are plenty of things, but that's not, but
Liz Herl: we're in that, in that realm you're talking to.
Yeah. Many things have been resolved with that kind of interaction. Absolutely they have. So I want to be
Tim Caldwell: clear. Many lives have been saved that way.
The Importance of Standing for Beliefs
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Tim Caldwell: However there's always this scream of our democracy being in jeopardy. Our democracy has to fall to our leaders. Those are the political people who we are supposedly elect Supposedly they go up there and they're going political.
I know, I know. But they're supposed to be, they're supposed to be representing us with our best intentions. Here's the thing, here's the rub about [00:41:00] elected politicians. If you're standing in a crowd. And a, a man or a woman is standing up there and he's pointing at all of us and he says, I'm fighting for you.
Mm-hmm. Well, you're fighting for him and me. 'cause I don't believe, I don't agree with him. Mm-hmm. That's what politics is so murky. It's so how can they possibly, that's why it's up to us to be involved. It's up to us to voice our opinion. It's up to us to have a conversation.
Liz Herl: Right. And I'm going nonpolitical, but I understand, I understand all things have politics in 'em.
I'm not against that understanding at all. I to my core beliefs of the person that I am. And I do want us to be able to be reasonable with one another. I saw this and I thought, that's exactly when you can live and die for something that's a.
Whew. It's a pretty big stance, but if you believe in something, you need to have the courage to fight for those [00:42:00] ideas, not run away from them or try to silence them.
Tim Caldwell: I, which is
Liz Herl: Charlie Kirk.
Tim Caldwell: I love the sentiment. Yes, I love the sentiment, but I, I have been saying this for, I don't know, at least 25 years.
We live in a society where nobody will stand for, fight for or die for anything.
Liz Herl: Well, few will. I don't think nobody will. I think that it's a hard, we went away from, and why did, and that's a whole other, I don't wanna spiral into another conversation, but that, how did we reduce. How did our morals and values and belief systems change in the last two decades?
That's a whole other topic for another time, but that speaks to what you just said there when you said nobody will stand or fight for anything. What are we standing and fighting for and what are our morals and value systems therein?
Tim Caldwell: My point to that, my counter to that is quite simply it's things have become too easy for us.
It's been 60 years since we've had a conflict, [00:43:00] a real war. And I used to cringe at the lectures given by one of my high school teachers who said one of the best economic fixes for any society is war. And as I've gotten older and you start to watch, yeah, lots of people prosper in war the downside is lots of people die in war.
I think the point. Which may be lost on anyone listening to this is we are through the last, at least two generations. We've had a softening in our society and we've been contacted by an individual who might wanna speak to us a little bit about that. But that the softening of society has taken us to a point where what comes into our heads is poison fruit.
What comes into our lives is tainted and skewed by opinions. That you really don't share, but you've never had an opinion [00:44:00] and all your friends like what he has to say. So pretty soon you like what they have to say, and pretty soon you're part of that club. You don't want to be outside the club.
So we embrace these types of things. And Liz, the one thing I want people to understand is you need to be strong in your own beliefs. You need to be able to do your own research. You need to be educated in the fact that your education won't come from a college, it's not gonna come from school, it's gonna come from experience.
And you may take parts of that information, but you have to experience life. And until you do, you need to be a student of
Liz Herl: it,
Tim Caldwell: Of the world, student of the world, right.
Liz Herl: And I think that there's a lot of things in that, in your response there that we have to. When we talk about our softer engagements in our society.
We are heavier on being careful with our words not to offend. And so I [00:45:00] talk a lot about, why are we shouldering everyone else's feelings? And how is that our responsibility? I think we have a responsibility as an individual to speak clearly and effectively.
And that's something that I think is being lost and able to articulate in debate with being able to diffuse ourselves later. Right. Like we might, get like, well, hey, what happens is the jabs become harder to respond to. So then that amps you up and then You get completely Yes.
Dysregulated and you can't think of your thoughts and then you're like, I don't know what a good comeback is to that. Sure. And then whatever it is then we walk away feeling defeated, be belittled, but we should be able to engage one another in healthy debates and disagreements or, you know, misunderstandings, whatever you wanna call 'em about anything really, without, of course, it leading to some horrible, violent act.
Not just a mass shooting, but even, even coming down to fighting one another, [00:46:00] pushing one another. You see it all the time on social media. The screaming back and forth at one another. Like, we don't know how to regulate ourselves, you know? I'm big on that. Yeah. Like I'm huge on emotional regulation. Yeah.
Like, you need to chill out. But when we get to. A point I'm making here is that we are not teaching anyone, in my opinion, that's a pretty big statement, but how to control themselves. That's right. How to understand people are gonna hurt your feelings and you are gonna not, and you are gonna not agree with everybody.
That's right. And people are not gonna agree with you. That's
Tim Caldwell: right.
Liz Herl: And that's okay because that is a part of our humanity, that is part of life. And you've gotta learn to manage all of those feelings around, like what, why is that happening? And do so in a healthy manner. Now we are not teaching that we are, we are leaning into whatever you feel you are justified in.
This is a detriment to mental health. This isn't about politics. I keep saying that, that absolutely this is our mental health. We're impairing because [00:47:00] we're the level of resiliency and understanding how to respond to hardships because we have to know how to do that well, nonviolently and to take care of ourselves and not be so, you know, I'll, I'll tell you, and again, kinda all over the place today, so a little amped up.
Finding Light in a Heavy World
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Liz Herl: But I mean, I'm, I'm a mother, as I said earlier, and obviously you're a father, my children look to me in all of this and mom, like, what is going on? And they know what I do in my professional life and they know of course as their mother and I'm sometimes lost for words for the inhumanity of it all.
Sure. Like, and trying to instill in them values, morals, beliefs, systems, and speaking really clearly for yourself. And I say this a lot on other episodes, sometimes when you are speaking up, you might be on that island all by yourself. You better be cautious with your words and your engagements.
Because remember, people sometimes die on the wrong mountain.
Tim Caldwell: Yep.
Liz Herl: And so you have to be cautious in all of that and [00:48:00] be considerate. And I do appreciate what you said. Am I, it's not about being wrong. I think when you say I'm 100% ready to be wrong, it's am I, can I be open-minded? I'll tell you all the time, I am a big, I watch and listen to everything.
Like I, I read everything. Sometimes I'll read, I'm like, well, this isn't for me, so I'll just turn away from it or something. I'm like, no. But I do love to consume knowledge to the best of my ability, and I try and compute it. Same the best way I can. Same because sometimes my brain doesn't kind of, you know, same, do all those great things, but it is not my understanding that someone has to do the exact same thing that I do.
Tim Caldwell: That's right. And
Liz Herl: I'm offended if you don't. So if I say, Hey, you know, Tim, I'd love you to read this book. Oh, I'm not really interested in it. Why not? And that's where we go, right?
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: Well, this is a really good book. I think you'd really like it.
Right? But now I'm offended. Right? Like, why are you so offended? Well,
Tim Caldwell: it's not just offended. You're flipped it. See, you hate people who read books, right? It's like, no, no. I just don't. It's such a drastic. Don't read. Yeah. I don't care if you know Liz. All of [00:49:00] that is absolutely true. And I want, I want people to understand this.
The only way you can accept the very fact that you may be 100% wrong, is for you to be humble and to show some modicum of respect or gratitude to the fact that the person you're having this interchange with, they may know something you don't, and that's what's lost.
And that Dr. Peterson was saying his 12 rules of life. Number 10, be precise in your speech. And that is not to challenge but to propose and then let them ruminate, let them think. But before we end this conversation, I want people to understand that most people don't understand each other anyway.
Even the people who you feel most closely affiliated to family. Mm-hmm. Friends, lovers. You can confess and proclaim your position and you should [00:50:00] stand on it for your own, on your own volition. Absolutely. It should be absolutely your choice to do these things and. You are not subject to be ridiculed or impacted.
Can you have conversations? Yes. I have always loved a term that was brought forth by the members of the Intellectual Dark web. And these are Eric Weinstein and there's Brother Brit and Jordan Peterson Matt Walsh, Ben Shapiro. These guys have, they're powerful, powerful people, especially on the intellectual, conversational side.
Well, Eric said, I can have these conversations without doing what he called Jesus smuggling. Mm-hmm. I confess to you and everybody who can hear my voice that I am, I try to be a good Christian, but I'm just a man. I'm trying to do what I can to be a good Christian man, but I'm [00:51:00] just a man. Mm-hmm. And I'm full of flaws and I'll make mistakes and I'll get angry and I'll be hurt.
I'll do all of those things. But I'm still trying to get back to the tenets of, as Jordan Peterson says, living a life like I believe there is a God. And I can do that and not have to sacrifice anything.
Liz Herl: And actually I would challenge you in that I think in this day and age you could have the potential to clearly sacrifice perhaps your life.
So there is that. And being able to say that, I think we multiple times have talked about our beliefs mildly on this podcast. And that was something I wrestled with after the passing of Charlie Kirk. I think it's important. How we share with one another our belief systems.
Regarding Christianity or regarding your relationship with Christ. And that is something that can really be a deterrent of other people. And I think people, some people did not like [00:52:00] Charlie's way of addressing that, but that still isn't right or wrong or indifferent, it's just something you don't care for.
Again, that just irritates me that people, so you don't care for it. Sure. Okay, that's fine. However, in saying all that I had a amazing opportunity. My daughters are amazing, my son is incredible. I've got the best children in the world. So sorry for your luck. But 'cause they're all mine.
And my daughter who is a 17-year-old senior is a very strong Christian Young woman and. She has strengthened my relationship with Christ, through her belief, through her faith. I had stepped away from my faith for a number amount of years after the passing of my mom due to my anger over the loss of that.
And that's why I think you mentioned earlier when we were discussing getting ready for this episode, a turning point. Do we turn towards or turn away from God during this time?
Tim Caldwell: Right.
Liz Herl: In the ironic point of using that language, turning point,
Tim Caldwell: right.
Liz Herl: Because when I had my loss of my mom at 23 years old, I turned [00:53:00] away.
I was angry at God because I knew the, I knew what I grew up in the church in a Pentecostal faith that I knew of my belief in, in Christ that he could heal my mother. Sure. And that didn't happen. So then I said, all right then if you don't wanna, that really worked out poorly for me, FYI, but the point is I got to see my daughter.
Last night on a football field with approximately maybe 20 other young people ranging from probably 14 on up to 18 years, young adults
Tim Caldwell: and a stadium full of people.
Liz Herl: They had all left. They had all left, but they sang praise and worship music and they each said their testimony.
And listening to my daughter's testimony is such a humbling experience and, listening to all the young people going up there and sharing their experience of what brought them back to Christ and brought them towards Christ, there's no time like the present for that, I guess is where I'm going.
That's right. Um, For whatever journey you're on and, this person, I'm, I don't wanna say this person, Charlie Kirk. That is absolutely part [00:54:00] of the process of his assassination was his belief in Christ. That's true. And and I will not shortcut that at all. I think that you have to be able to stand in whatever you believe in and know that you might be chastised for it.
Absolutely. That's just, at the end of the day, that's just where you stand. And I think it is important. I'll tell you in my upbringing, the way I would say Christ was shown to others was very shaming and belittling. And I have very big, strong deterrent of that as a woman of my own faith that I don't think that's helpful.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: And how that was done. And I think that that's where we have to understand how we choose to share our relationship with Christ or our belief system or whatever it is, is from your point of view. But that does not mean you kill somebody over it.
Tim Caldwell: Absolutely. But there's no butts, right.
There's no butts to any of this. Something I want to add is I am completely the fact that I get to sit across from you and we get to talk about these things and other people may find what we have to say even modestly interesting. Right. Is [00:55:00] amazing. It is amazing. It's, it's fun and it's something we want to do.
But I will say in your defense and in defense of all people who walk a professional career, is that you could be, you could be shunned, you could be blackballed. Sure. You could be all of of these things because of the way that you think. Mm-hmm. And I think that that's tragic. Because we should be able to do what we want to do in our own capacity mm-hmm.
And have a stance. Mm-hmm. And know that professionally you're not gonna, you're not gonna see a bunch of religious ornamentation in my office. You, I won't even speak about it unless you bring it up. But quite frankly, I find it exceptionally hard that people in the mental health realm and medical for that matter, can't express that without a fear of [00:56:00] their own community passing judgment on them.
As an example, I had all of my degrees in science. I remember when I revealed to certain people of my life Sure. That I was about to be baptized. And you could read on their face that my IQ had dropped by 200 points. And the question was never posed, but the questions changed. Mm-hmm. Because there was almost this undertone of why do you believe that nonsense.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I, and, and you know, is it, is it just me being personal? No, I'm pretty intuitive. Yeah, yeah. No, no. You
Liz Herl: can read a room, you can, you can read a
Tim Caldwell: room and, and you can tell that people, wow, that's, I didn't expect that of you time too bad.
Liz Herl: Right. And, and that's where I say that. Yeah. That's where you have to stand your, your ground there and just let somebody experience you.
What I mean by that, let them experience whatever they're experiencing and you not back down from your truth. Yeah. And that is the, the end of it.
Tim Caldwell: And you know [00:57:00] what, I'm not gonna go down to this Oprah Winfrey. My truth thing, I don't believe in that. I believe in if you have, if you have faith, if you have strong conviction towards things and they are based on what you know to be factual, you plant your flag.
Liz Herl: No, no, I'm saying the truth, not my truth. No, no. Good. The truth good. Because like you stand in the truth. That's what I'm saying.
Tim Caldwell: Yes. Because I, for the longest time was conflicted by all of this. Love for these celebrities who would talk about my truth, my truth. Follow, follow your bliss. Don't follow your bliss.
Right. Follow what you're good at. Follow what you're needed. So I have
Liz Herl: to, you know, I have to kind of, take a moment there and, and as we come to a close here, but that was you saying that last night that I hear these young people saying that's exactly what they were doing before they discovered this emptiness and that they were looking for, they didn't know they were looking for Christ, but they were following every nook and cranny that this world could offer them.
And they found no fulfillment in it. And so it was beautiful. And that's, very, important that we continue to be who [00:58:00] each and every one of us are as individuals, whether you're a believer or a non-believer or it you have to be able to get along. We have to be able to be considerate to one another.
Tim Caldwell: You know what, Liz, I, I want to just, we'll pull back the curtain here just a little bit, is actually our production person, Brian. Mm-hmm. He's the one who actually has made it relatively known to us, is that people are gonna believe what they want anyway. they're either gonna listen to you or they're not, and
you need to take, you need a stance. Sometimes you need to take a stance. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And it's okay because there's an audience for everyone. If they don't like you, it's unfortunate. There's nothing intended towards us, just us expressing our own opinions. And no offense, I'll listen to yours.
If you listen to mine. That's all I ask for.
Liz Herl: Yep. That's all we all ask for, and that's what I'm hoping for. Anyone listening and you know, moving along in this world, my encouragement to you today is, the world feels really heavy. Our relationships might feel heavy, our interactions, but I pray, I do pray, I, that you [00:59:00] find kindness in your delivery to someone today, to anyone in your interactions.
Try and bring in joy when there's so much heaviness and so much, darkness around our interactions, like trying to bring in the joy there is. There is beautiful. And I told my girls this, I said, there is beautiful things in this world. I know it's hard to see sometimes, but there are beautiful people in this world.
I see great things. Social media is a very toxic, toxic sometimes Yeah. Mess pool if you are, if you will. But I see really beautiful things on there too. So I just want you to remember that this world does have light in it. It has beauty in it and to love on one another, appreciate what you have.
Be grateful every single day for just the, even the minimal things. Trust and believe. Having the minimal things in life, getting you by and moving you forward sometimes is all it takes to care for one another to the best of your ability. Yep.
Tim Caldwell: Good words, Liz and I, mine is having that attitude of gratitude.
I appreci. Your [01:00:00] strength. Today is Saturday that we record this. Tomorrow I would ask everybody go to church. Mm-hmm. That's just for me, but that uh,
Liz Herl: we're all hurting
Tim Caldwell: your, everybody's hurting. And that to him, your being there isn't just for you. Mm-hmm. Your being there is because someone may be looking for you.
They may really be looking for you. And when I tell people all the time, take care of themselves, it's not just for you. It's for other people. People need you. You don't know what part you play, but people need you. Thanks Liz for this.
Liz Herl: Thank you everyone. Take care of yourselves and until next time, we'll just see you then.
Tim Caldwell: All right. Bye-bye.