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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
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Email anytime at podcast@ohhmaybe.com and follow us @mischiefpod
Mishu Hilmy (00:03)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life and that steady and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big bold
risky moves. So if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com. Hello everyone, this is Misha and welcome to Mischief and Mastery. Today I'm talking to Shelby S.B. Gamble, who's a Chicago-based filmmaker and cinematographer who blends scrappy indie spirit with commercial polish, shooting brand campaigns by day and greedy heartfelt.
films by night. Shelby is a former first AC turned director and is known for making small-budget projects look big and bold. Whether he's workshopping scripts in his basement or crafting reels for major hospitality brand, his work is always rooted in curiosity, character, and craft. So that's Shelby for you.
So we talk about how to get scrappy, making room for joy, especially when there's a lot of challenges on set and why every client shoot can be a chance to sharpen your skills, develop your voice. We also get into resources when it comes to filmmaking, how to be mindful and intentional with resources, letting go of characters when it comes to writing the first draft and the difficult love of getting those 10,000 hours, even if you are in the midst of weird client commercials. So if you're into that, please.
Listen in. You can learn more about Shelby on his website, SBGamble.com, as well as follow him on Instagram at SB Gamble. Also check out Good Fight Films dot com for more of his work and stream Dream Boy, his feature film now streaming on Tubi. So here it is me and Shelby. Hope you enjoy.
Shelby Gamble (02:04)
It was about it was about a year and some months ago. Yeah. No, as I was trying to just do like experiments, you know, I think that one of the things I try to do, I'm like, what can I get away with? Can I get away with making this almost a feature just about a feature? Right. OK, now I've made it. Yeah. Can I do self distribution? Let's see what that looks like. Yeah. It's constantly putting myself in situations where I'm like, oh, let's see. Like, no one's telling me no. So I might as well.
Yes.
Mishu Hilmy (02:33)
I'm it. Right. You know, because like it's about an hour long. So like, how are you? Were you just like comfortable? Like this is technically a short feature length. Like, was there a head game where you're like, man, I just like add a 20 minutes. So it feels more like a.
I mean, yeah, of course I wish I did. But like I think as as a very indie, low budget, no budget type of filmmaker, we're always trying to navigate our limitations and trying to like and I always try to think of my limitations as OK, this is an opportunity for me to be creative. Right. And I try not to ask myself what can't I do? I'm always like, OK, what can I do? What is available to me? So I was trying to think that.
way. Yeah, that's yeah.
It was, it was just an experiment. didn't, I like, I was just like, we'll see what happens, you know? And it's, it's, it's made it on Tubi. Um, it's, it's been watched and that's, and that's crazy. Like you look at the analytics and you're just like somebody in the UK is watching what I did.
Right. Yeah, it's kind of a trippy. Yeah.
Shelby Gamble (03:35)
Yeah, it totally is. know, I have really good collaborators, really good artists who I enjoy working with, who I'm always trying to be like, OK, like, they available? Let's let's let's hang out. know, yeah, I love my actors. They're always always think of them as collaborators and, you know, have a good time.
Yeah, Brian was actually a PA for a short film I did years ago. And I think I took an on-camera acting class with Kyle. So like I saw both of them. know these folks.
Yeah, no, they're they're pretty they're the leads in the film. They're pretty amazing people, people like great human beings. And, you know, I'm grateful they let me just like throw a camera in their face.
a treat. I also think like the you can always pitch it as like, it's an hour of a limited series. This is the pilot episode of a limited series, the dream boy series. It's an anthology of every episode follows some sort of a dreamy couple.
You see, like how that's the producer. I got to I got to do that. No, I'm I'm trying to. Well, I've been writing. I wrote a couple of scripts and I'm still writing scripts, right? I'm thinking about what I have access to. And so I'm I was like to call it I'm sure someone said this, but this is how I think of it is resource filmmaking, like really taking a good stock of what you have available to you, what resources you have available.
Shelby Gamble (04:53)
what people will collaborate as you have available to you and really trying to crash a story around those resources so you can do something and you can execute on right. You know, especially if you're doing low budget, you can't pay people like thousands and millions of dollars to be a part of your project. So I think it's important to think about what you can do and be able to produce work. So they have something to show for the time that they spent with you.
Yeah, yeah, I think it's a beautiful sentiment I don't know if it was maybe like a kind of a duplass brothers type thing or if it was a speech by market around like, you know, think about the the resources you have access to but I've never heard of any like resource filmmaking, but even that I think is sort of special like to take a inventory or take stock of what you know, the connections you have and the the access to things you have like even just like creating it I've never thought about this until you just set up like creating I love spreadsheets, but like creating a spreadsheet of like
These are all the locations I'm familiar with. are all the locations that people would be willing to, you know, donate for maybe one day and to go, right, how can I write like a 25 minute thing or a 90 minute thing that uses as many of these?
Yeah, that's totally it I think that know I think that when you do this type of filmmaking you kind of have to be a little bit of a producer you have to start taking stock of schedules and Resources and who's gonna be there and you kind of have to you know I think that it's it's part of the challenge, but it's also kind of fun to write, know Yeah, there's a joy in it at least for me
That's great. Yeah, I think sometimes it's hard for me when I'm starting a script to take off that producing hat or and go like, shoot, I've already written like eight locations in the first five pages. So do you ever struggle with that when you're writing where you're like, this is too creative. This is too filthy.
Shelby Gamble (06:43)
Yeah, I recently just wrote a script and it was using a lot of locations I have access to but then I was like how many days is that how many outfit changes are gonna be? Yeah, maybe I should write something that happens in one day. You know what I mean? So yeah, I have done that and I have this script and I'm just like, okay Well, I'm just gonna set it aside and when I have those a little bit more resources I'm gonna come back to it, you know, so yeah
Do you find that you predominantly you spend your time thinking about writing and writing and then when the writing gets to a level where you might want to make it, then you direct or like how's the balance been at least lately since releasing your feature around what how you're spending your time?
I think, I think what it is right now, because, you know, we like, have to kind of like pay the bills, right? So I've been working as a video content producer for an agency, which is great because that means I get to have a camera in my hand. get to produce stories. get to be in the craft and like really getting my 10,000 hours out. Right. So it's like balancing that day job with my creative pursuits. And generally it's with me when I sit down to write.
Right. When I sit down and I have these characters and these scenarios and this, I, this plot in my mind, when I finally sit down, it just flows. Okay. The characters, their voices, because you start, because you know what they want and their voices kind of take over. I think that sometimes, and I'm kind of trying to be mindful of this. Sometimes their voices take over too much and, they're monologuing and I'm like, okay, pull back, pull back. You know, like it's, it's very fun to just kind of like.
start putting these characters around and discovering them and letting them take over and have fun with the plot. yeah, it's just, mean, honestly, it's about balancing the day, balancing the day job and then making time to make sure that I'm following my own creative pursuits to get that, that sort of, you know, that energy back and that kind of like that, that satisfaction back. You know what I mean?
Mishu Hilmy (08:38)
Yeah, yeah, I think that makes sense. And like, yeah, you know, I try to trust the revision process of like letting characters run their mouths and go, all right, this is an eight page monologue, but I'll save one sentence from it and that'll be good enough. But at least in the moment on those earlier drafts to let it fly. But I'm curious when it comes to like the day job energy, given that you are sort of mercenary doing something that is quite close to the creative industry, you'd like to be doing more maybe organically or creatively. Like how do you kind of deal with
I don't want say burnout, like the spirit of like, this is mercenary, this is commerce. Like I'm doing, I'm doing really producey sort of this is for lubricating the exchange of money and goods to buy stuff. Like I don't want to the ethics of it, but like, how do you deal with like the, maybe the more punk rock element of making art versus selling, know, selling your skills?
So what I think is like everything that I do is for me, right? So even if I'm like, even if I'm shooting like a commercial or I'm shooting like content for a brand, it's I'm sharpening my skills. Yes. Like every time I pick up a camera and I always do this, right. You always have to listen to the client. You have to figure out what the client wants, but you always do one shot.
for you, whether it be a shot, whether it be a piece of content, you always find a way to do it for you. Or if you're doing technical stuff, right, like I'm producing technical stuff, I'm trying to like light a particular location. I'm like, that was a very cool shot. That was a very great way to light that that that space. How can I take that into my own work? Yeah. Right. You know, to be to to be a part of this, everything that you do like to me, I think about it as I'm a craftsman. Yeah. And a craftsman is never done.
Learn right right every time I pick up a camera every time I pick up a script every time I have to go on on a set every time I have to do guerrilla shooting or anything like that It is an opportunity for me to sharpen that knife and I think about in doing that sort of like, you know mercenary work that sort of commercial work the skills and the things that I've been able to learn and get paid Yeah, so when and that's kind of why I'm anxious to go back and to do some of my own stuff because it's like I've leveled up
Mishu Hilmy (10:52)
Yeah, yeah,
I've been able to like level up. And so when you when you're doing those things, you're doing your 10,000 hours, you can then bring that back to your work, right? Bring that back to your own personal work. You know? Yeah. So it's the 10,000 hours, man. Yeah.
Totally.
think that's like a real sort of honestly like a healthy attitude to have versus, know, my cynical take would be like, this is going to corrupt my spirit, my soul and my creative ability because then I'll just be thinking, you know, spending more and more time trying to get, you know, that money and like bigger, better clients versus like seeing it more of a holistic way. Like, yeah, sure. It might be a little bit mind numbing and you're doing a diapers commercial or whatever, but
if you at least have the spirit of like, this is contributing to like my skill set and helping me clock those hours. Ridley Scott's like the best example of being a commercial producer for X number of years before going into features. like, how do you actively prepare or create mindfulness for each project to have those one or two moments where you can try and steal something for yourself or make something for yourself? Like, you prep? know, do you like, I'd love to like sneak in this shot.
Shelby Gamble (11:59.374)
I think what it is, it's about one, what I always think, one, I'm going to always try to have a positive attitude because I feel like one, you're coming, and that's when you have Pollyanna, right? I'm not always happy. I might get annoyed.
But anytime I'm on set, anytime I have an opportunity to learn or to do something, I try to approach it with a positive attitude. Just for me in particular, I find that when I keep my mind open like that, that's when I have my best ideas. That's when I have my most inspiration, right? Like if I'm mad or if I'm irritated, you know, but if I keep my mind open and I keep my attitude positive, if something goes wrong.
I'm not working at a deficit. Right. Right. Right. And before I was doing filmmaking, I was working in business. I managed a bank, you know, like so like looking at spreadsheets, PNLs, counting ATM machines, managing customers like retail. OK, so I think I used to sit in that break room and I used to sit there and stare right. There's a little slot in the room where you. Right.
You got your 15 minutes.
Yeah. And so I'm sitting there looking at the sky saying, I'm going to get out of here somehow, some way I'm going to be able to be a filmmaker. I'm going to plot. I'm going to plot and sneak out because it's like a pride. I'm going to get through the front door, but I'm going to sneak into the back door to this. And so I never forget that maybe in an alternate universe, there is a Shelby that's still miserably counting that ATM machine. OK.
Mishu Hilmy (13:29.858)
Right. Yeah.
And I used to think about how desperately I wanted to be doing the things that I'm doing now, even if it's like commercial stuff. Yeah, I get to I get to be I get to sharpen my skills. Yeah. You know. And so I always try to practice. I always try to practice gratitude. So even if it does get crazy, I'm like, yo, I could be counting 80. I could be worrying about an audit. Yeah. We used to get audited all the time. It was the most like I could do with a crazy set any day. Yeah. Like a C-Stan could be falling.
You know, maybe something burning in the background to be audited in a bank with other people's money. No, I've been forged in the fires now. So I look a bad day on set is a good day to me.
Yeah, yeah, it's all perspective, right? Gratitude and perspective because I relate, you know, I spent five years firefighting and working on an ambulance and it's like there's no emergency that's like big enough for me to like lose it over. So it's like similar to like it's an emergency if you f up someone else's money. So like that that creating that perspective, I'm just curious, like what how what was the sign for you to cross the threshold and go, all right, I'm out. I'm done with this bank gig. I know the money's all right. Like, was it an acute thing or did it just chronically build where you sort of worked up the courage to say, you know what, I'm going to
I'm gonna take a swing.
Shelby Gamble (14:42.67)
So I'm so I knew a bunch of creatives at the time and I would look longingly at these creative people, you know, you in a day's I knew a one friend, she was a photographer, I had another friend, he was a music producer and I just would support him and I would just was kind of obsessed with the fact they're able to be creative. And I wanted to do that for a long time. I wrote books because I'm like making a film is too hard. So I wrote like novels and stuff.
Yeah, right. Like published three of them. And I'm just like, OK, I got this story. I'm fine. I should be satisfied. Right. Try to tell myself I'm to be satisfied. And then at the bank, there was a shooting and I worked downtown at the Thompson Center, which is no longer what it used to be. Right. This bank has now been ripped apart as they're like building it up, which is crazy to think that I've lived this life in this place and it's like gone. But a shooting took place. This guy, this cop was like pursuing this guy who stole something. And it was like literally three feet.
from my branch door. I'm like in the bank, calming down customers, telling my employees, don't look at it. And I'm purposely not looking at the dead body and keeping it totally keeping it together. Cause if you're the manager, when you're like the leader, if you freak out, everybody brings up like calling and every fiber of my being and strength that keep it calm and going home, like literally going home, writing them.
bus getting off the bus, walking over my condo and then realizing like, I don't have to be calm anymore. And just like breaking down.
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Shelby Gamble (16:15.148)
Which I say, if you lived in Chicago and you haven't like had a break, a breakdown of pride in the public, you're not doing it. You're not, you're not living in Chicago.
Yeah, the CTA catharsis.
Yeah. And it was that moment where I realized how finite life is. Yeah. Right. Like we're only on this planet for a certain amount of time. You know, I've already lived so much of a long life, not doing the things that I want to do. And it's just like I at that moment, I'm like, I decided that I can't I have to try. Like even if even if like and this is at the time I was like, even if it didn't work out, I'm going to try because life is finite. I found this guy who my first short film
Like I found this dude online. I talked to a bunch of people, but I met this guy. He was younger than me, right? Younger dude. And he ended up being, he ended up being my mentor.
Totally. Yeah, the most part. Yeah, get that reverse mentorship.
Shelby Gamble (17:06.889)
Yes, love this dude. He taught me how to hold a camera. We did. We had like a few summers where we did weddings together, where I got to just learn the learn the craft. And he just like, you know, he like he bought me. I think, you know, we started shooting on Panasonic cameras. So I'm loyal to that because that's like what I was taught on. You know what I'm saying? But yeah. And I just like I put together a short film for the weekend and I literally shot it in a day. Love that. like five minutes long.
And just said, OK, I did it. And then at that point, I'm like, well, let me just throw it into some film festivals and see what happens. Right. Right. Always experimenting. Yeah. Let me just see what happens. You know what? Whatever. So I put in a film festival and it got into film festival. And I was just like, wait, wait a minute. You mean I could you mean I could do this? Yeah. And at that point, I was like, bet.
Be be
It's over. And at that point, I became upset. All right. Learning everything I could. went to the Chicago, I think was the Chicago filmmaker.
Like the fire station or they move to the fire station. Yeah
Shelby Gamble (18:10.7)
Yep. Right there. I was in there. I was probably the most annoying student at one point they had me on the website. I came in there because I learned so much. I came in there to kind of reinforce what I learned. Right. Right. And it was just like, I just became obsessed. So I was still working at the bank. I was buying everything. I was I was having C stands, cameras, lenses, lights shipped to the bank. Like it was ridiculous. Like in my office, I was just like piling up.
film gear. Yeah, cuz I was like, don't know if I'm gonna have this corporate job. Let me get everything. Yeah, jambles. Everything got a little mini studio.
Yeah. So, so like, yeah, you had some kind of like acute shocks to the system and then you just F this, you know, I'm going to transition out. So you're sort of like learning while at the bank building up an inventory of gear. And then you go, all right, like, was it a cross fade of you're slowly getting clients as your production company? Or did you just kind of rip the bandaid off and go, I'm done with the bank. I'm going to go for some clients now.
So I was doing stuff on the side, shooting films on the side, and then the pandemic happened. So I'm just like, this job is trying to kill me. Yeah. No, not me. No, I'm an essential worker. I'm over here fighting for not my life, but my life and my team's life. Like I'm at the front door, right? I got two masks on and one of them face shields, trying to coax people into wearing a mask so they don't get people sick.
P
Mishu Hilmy (19:42.648)
Right, right.
And now, so at that point I said, I can't, this job is trying to kill me. gotta get the hell out of here. So, but I, I used, mean, by the thing is like this, you know, at first I was just like, you know, I should have did this long time ago. made the jump a long time ago, but the thing is learning how to manage people, learning how to talk to people, understanding customer service, understanding how to like have a relationship with the client, understanding business principles, knowing how to open up at LLC, knowing how to get insurance, knowing how to operate a tax ID.
knowing where to go to, do taxes, like all of that, all that business information. I literally said, okay, well, I need a business plan. So I was able to like cobble together a business plan based on that experience. And that's how I got to where I got to. Right. And doing everything, every time I do something, it's all, it's all like, okay, what can I get away with? How can I push my craft forward? How can I push my title forward? You know,
Like one of the first jobs I had, I was just a video editor, right? I was a video editor at this company. It was like a stock company or something, which was somewhat connected to banking. Right. And so I was a video editor there and they were shooting something because they were changing up some new process. And I'm just like, what camera are you shooting on? Some raggedy old camera. I'm like, if I got to edit this, I'm not going to be adding this on some raggedy camera. So I was like, well, let me bring in my stuff.
Because I got a bunch of stuff. had like Lavalier Mike. Yeah. Boom, Mike. I'm hooking it up, you know, bringing in lights and stuff, setting it up. And so by the time I left that job, I was able to walk away with videographer. Right. So video editor videographer. Right. And so every time I'm in a position, regardless of where I'd be at, it's like, how can I leverage this position to move my craft, my real move it forward? You know,
Shelby Gamble (21:38.894)
And that's just how I approach it. know, like it's just like even the film, it's just like, OK, I'm going to shoot this film. Now I have this film. How can I leverage it in a way that's going to move my career forward? And also not just me, but just the team, the people that I collaborate with. Right. How can I help move them forward? The people that I've collaborated with, they've been able to leverage the stuff that we shot to get bigger and better things. And so it's about trying to be positive and do things that are like thinking about growth, thinking about that sort of business structure.
So it's kind of, I used to be like, man, I wish I did this when I was like younger, man, I wish I would have dedicated this to myself, but I wouldn't have learned some of the foundational business stuff. And I realized that that is the stuff like that organization process, that dedication to writing and applying business, like resource filmmaking. That's just a, that's a business model. Like, okay, what do I have access to? Right. And thinking in that sort of way, I was forged in the fire of corporate.
banking, right? And on how to like, understand like profit and then also managing people. And I was, I was a manager that really prioritized people's humanity. No one got fired. People got promoted. I would advocate for folks. so bringing that to filmmaking, a place that's already rich with collaboration and communication, it's been the things that you think are.
a sort of liability, right? The things that you're like, man, I wish those are the lessons. Those are the very things that are strength as an artist that lived experience. That's a strength, though. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I think there's like a fetishization of youth and pre-cosity or precociousness if pre-cosity isn't a word. And I think, you know, people underestimate A, late blooming and B, trusting that the master wastes nothing. So it's like I, you know, of course, yes, early success would be great. And at same time, I'm like, if I were 20,
Mishu Hilmy (23:33.248)
and were doing the things that I'm doing now, they would just be so like toxic and bad and like idiotic. Yeah, yeah. It would be so like I'm grateful that none of I wasn't in sort of situations or higher stress scenarios.
at a less developed area because I don't think I would have been as generous or patient or even articulate when it comes to visions to express themes to explore. Probably would have been just a bunch of short films about not getting laid enough. And I'm like, I don't want to make this. I don't want this out there. So yeah, there's that twin kind of sense of like a bit of remorse and regret. And then also kind of being in three frame and go, actually, no, it's.
it's probably for the better to like go on my own journey and my own path versus like someone else's that would have probably not been the healthiest. So yeah, it's solid that we're able to recontextualize that. But yeah, I'm like, I really like the spirit of experimentation. think that's underrated, especially when it comes to an industry that's so like fear driven.
Like, you know, it's risky, it's high risk, it's expensive, it takes a lot of time, takes a lot of creative energy, takes a lot of sweat. So it is, it is scary. But to like contextualize it as like, this is an experiment rather than this is, this is my one shot, you know, my one opportunity. Yeah. So yeah, that's pretty, a pretty solid approach. So you have this experiment under your belt and you're, you're working on this current script. Like, how are you finding, you know, time to like, well, how are you feeling about just momentum?
when it comes to like you release something and now you're working on something like, you think about momentum or are you pretty like gentle and try to avoid thinking about, you know, next step.
Shelby Gamble (25:08.174)
I try to be kind to myself. Um, but not lazy. I think, I think that one of things that I try to do and I haven't been as good at it lately, but one of the things I try to do, it's like, have to, like, I, I am, I am grateful and lucky enough to be able to work as a video content producer. Lucky enough that I get to, I get to, have like, I don't know, like two shoot books this week. Yeah. Right.
So I'm grateful that that is that is what I get to do and I get to sharpen my skills. But I also have to take out even if it's like 30 minutes, even if it's like a minute, I always take a minute to invest back in myself, whether it be learning a new skill, whether it be spending time to write. So it's like I always think for myself, I have my own business. Yeah. Right. So I have to pour back into my business, pour back into myself in order to create the art that I want to create. And because I'm creating commercial work.
when it comes to the stuff that I want to create, I'm like, OK, it's time to do something weird. Yeah, they never go. Let me play with this lens. They're never going let me play with RGB lights like I want to. Right. Yeah. Then I can let me do it. I'm drone tricks. So it's just like, it's just like, honestly, keeping a list of stuff that I want to do and also being inspired by collaborators. Right. Like I know a couple like a couple of actors. They wanted they want to do something meaty. There there was a.
He was a dream boy, sweetest individual I have ever met in my life. I had him play a drug dealer and him play against a drug dealer. Yeah. Completely opposite of who he was. And he played the hell out. He was he was kind of I was like, damn, OK. You know, and just like having fun like that, doing stuff like that where it's just like, OK, let's do the stuff that we're not allowed to do. Yeah. I mean, ethically, OK. Yeah. And if I try to die. Right. But, know, like artistically explore places that we necessarily could.
Yeah. Right. Get different types of shots. And I think for me, I want to play with some more genre stuff. I think what I'm trying to learn is that the beauty is in the experimentation. Right. Right. When I look back at my work, the moments where I held myself back or I was like, I don't know if this is, you know, this might not be appropriate or this might come off wrong. Those are the things that I regret. Yeah. It's not, you know, and I think that if I want to do this as an artist and really
Shelby Gamble (27:22.316)
beginning to look at what artists do, whether they be in anything, they truly let themselves go. And I think that as an artist, you have to you have to be OK with being uncomfortable. You have to be OK with sucking, you know, like there's some stuff that I shot even in my current film. And I'm just looking at that shot like, good God, why in the hell did I put the light there? Yeah, I'm saying. Yeah. And but that's part of being a craftsman. Right. Right. Like you're going to continue to whittle away and whittle away until you
Yeah.
Shelby Gamble (27:51.096)
to really get good at crafting that art and learning how to suck less. And that's that's part of the process. Like, you know, the good thing is, is that the work that I currently do, like you produce something for a client, they they crap all over it. Right. Like this was terrible. Like, don't like this. Can we do this shot? This looks messed up. But that's a part of the process. And that's actually like, that's the gift. Right. Like, that's the learning. That's where the learning happens. That's where you close the gap of your skill.
and your taste level, right? That tension right there, that critique, that's a part of it. And if you're too sensitive, you ain't gonna get too far. So being open to that and that process.
So yeah, I remember learning about about expertise and deep learning and like, you know, it feedback is like critical feedback is totally necessary. And if you don't get that deep work, deep learning, that iterative feedback, it's easy to just end up at a plateau where you're sort of like, well, this is my comfort zone, wittingly or unwittingly, and you're just sort of like doing the same thing over and over again. So the benefit of having like high volume of client work is whether they're right or wrong, you're getting
input, you're getting data, you're getting signals of information that like, well, this type of person or these type of people, they don't understand why this would have this aesthetic look. So maybe that's something I can caution myself against. But if I don't want to alienate this type of audience. And yeah, I think it took me maybe like 10 short films to like create a rule on set for myself, like don't shoot anything ugly. For coverage be damned. Like if I don't like how it looks in the moment, like I'm just not going to shoot it because I know I won't use it in the edit. I'm like, oh, no, right. It took a while to be like
stop wasting everyone's time. Like do not shoot this coverage. It does not look good. Stop.
Shelby Gamble (29:35.904)
Right. Right. It's, it's just little, it's just little stuff. And it's just like, the more you do it, the better you get. So, you know, I really, I really think about that. One of the things that I think about, right. Like I think it's important for me and my journey is to appreciate the journey, right? It's not a destination. Right. And if I think of it as, I have to be here by this. No, I'm not saying not have goals, not having that have a place to go, but like, once you get there,
Then what? It's the, it's that from where you are to that location, that that space in between that's, that's the beauty. That's where life happens. That's where the lessons happens. That's where magic can happen on that step on that journey. So I always try to approach this with that in mind. So I don't get, you know, tripped up wanting something like, I have to get here. It's like, I will get there, but while I'm getting there, let me learn what I need to learn in this moment. What can I learn in this moment?
Totally.
Mishu Hilmy (30:33.654)
Yeah, it's fixating on the strategy versus the underlying need. Because to me, the underlying need is a life of growth, discovery, and challenges. That's a beautiful universal need versus the strategy is like, need to get an Oscar by the time I'm 28. That strategy is going to break you if you're just fixating it or whatever. I need to get a Marvel movie under my belt or I need to do this. Yes, those are interesting things to strategize.
toward and make goals toward. If you focus, I think, day over day more on the underlying need, which is like, what did I do today that helped me grow as a cinematographer, a writer, director, actor? That'll probably do you more mental benefits and serve your mental health better than being like, I need to be an Oscar winning actor or actress or whatever. It's like focusing on growth and other needs rather than the singular way to achieve that. Yeah.
And I think the good thing about the stuff that we do now, especially with it being so democratized, you can make up your own rules. You can make up your own rules. You know what I mean? There is no one thing that I'm beginning to understand. is every like you can talk to everybody. You can talk to cats who went to film school. You can talk to cats who didn't go to film school. Everybody got nobody just walked in the front door. Some people fell in on the side door. Some people crawl through the roof. Somebody busted up from the basement. We all got here.
Yeah.
Shelby Gamble (31:57.134)
all different types of ways. And, you know, I also try to be, I also try not to forget where I came from. And I think about what I think about if I could go back in time, show me from back in time to see what I was doing right now. He would be, he would be blown away. Right. You know? Right. And so I, yeah. Yeah. So I know. And I think to myself somewhere in the future, I'm going to be, I'm going be thinking about who I am now saying, yeah, he'd be happy.
Right. So yeah, I think I mean, I struggle with that, though, because it's like I know if it's ambition or just being more present oriented that like the laurels aren't satisfying. And I don't spend much time reflecting on like the past. Like I just once I've done something, I just don't think about it like it's done. Like I let it I generally either accept or let it go. But to like at least be gentle and go look at that moment and go, actually, I can be kind to myself, you know, like I just did. I just finished this.
two months ago or six months ago or a week ago, I can take a beat. can reflect and not chase the next thing all the time.
But I do think like your perspective, like to me, is like more, I imagine like process oriented as like a motivator, like to be with the process, right? Then I think some folks are really motivated by impact. Like I want my movie to like help my cause, a cause that's valuable to me, or some folks might be, you know, focused less on impact. And people, think people's also like a big motivator for me. It's like process and people. Those are the two things that'll get me to do it. And I think the last one is like objects. Some people are like motivated by either the wealth or...
the stories that come from that kind of success. But neither is right or wrong. I just know what sustains me more is like if I'm just focusing on the joy of writing or directing and the people I get to serve, like that'll, that's more nourishing than any kind of accomplishment.
Shelby Gamble (33:38.89)
Yeah, yeah, I did the money thing. I try to be broke. Don't get me wrong. Yeah, but like I did that as a chief motivator and I'm grateful I did it because I got to learn things. And so, you know, yeah, so, yeah, I want to play with genre next. I think I'm going play with horror genre.
Yeah
Mishu Hilmy (33:56.066)
Where's your head kind of floating around your world of playing with horror?
I think I think horror is all about it's like it's I mean, like there are so many like when I think about it, I'm like, OK, there's a technical aspect. OK, I some of my favorite movies have four elements in it. And I love I love I love a good jump scare guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, homie, like I love I love watching a movie and I love just like I love like I'm I'm I'm that cat that will literally be yelling at the like girl run.
Don't go upstairs. Why are you going upstairs? Run out the front like and there's that sort of like there's that sort of like fun that happens there. just think that it would just be something that I like to explore. I think for me, when I when I do a film and someone has an emotional reaction behind it or like these characters, right, these characters, this this film, it lives in my brain, right? It lives in here. And when it comes out and it gets to
and watching it play with other people. Yeah, that that that is a that is that is joyous. And I personally want to write something and I want to scare a few people. want to literally make somebody yell out and I want to let that's going to be fun. And I can't wait for that to happen. I can't wait to have that moment. And I'm a cracker like I'm going enjoy it. That's going to be wonderful. It's about kind of just crafting something that people can feel. And that's just that's that's that's so much fun.
Yeah, think horror is like maybe a step-sibling or a cousin to comedy. think they're very, they're very related in that like you're, they're kind of technical to a degree in terms of building tension. And I don't if it was like Hitchcock or Truffaut around like the exercise of like, what is tension? And I think the easiest explanation was like something like, if you're watching a shot and it's just like a bunch of people sitting on a bus and then all of sudden that bus explodes, there's no tension.
Mishu Hilmy (35:52.93)
but if you're looking at that scene, you know there's a bomb there. Yeah, so it's like that's the easiest way to describe or define tension. Similar to horror, it's like we as the audience member know something's upstairs or because of the pact we made with the audience by way of genre and knowing what they're about to watch, they know there's something there. So the question is like, how do you get to play with tension that's fun? Like I'm not like a horror snob, so like I'm a sucker for a jump scare or even a cheap unearned jump scare.
But I also think horror is one of those genres where people do have a lot of opinions on it. And there's also like any genre. There's so many sub genres, niche and nuance to it. But I do think it's like things where like I personally don't like confusion. Like I don't like an audience sitting there confused and intellectualizing their experience. Like that just doesn't excite me. So it's like things like comedy or horror where you can physically feel a shift in energy. Yeah, yeah. that's like.
Yeah, so I did it like I've done a lot of drama I've done a lot of romance. I just I just want to just I want to experiment I'm like I need to experiment I need to do something strange something outside of the normal So that's kind of that's kind of what I've been doing I recently bought a two-flat and it has a crazy basement and a crazy and a creepy garage and I'm like, I bet I want to do horror anyway Yeah, I got resources
That's it.
Yeah, no, the the basement or the the the garage, the light, because it's like an older building. You know, it was like it was like built in 18, like late 1800. So it's seen everything. Yeah. Like I think Harriet Tubman was around when this joint was built. OK, it's old. Right. And so the garage, the light went off in it. And me and my partner had to go out and I have a baseball bat. We have to go out and investigate. And I'm just like, yeah, I have to use this.
Mishu Hilmy (37:43.896)
This is the opening. That's the opening. Yeah. In terms of experimentation, because I know a buddy of mine would like listen to really creepy music while writing. So like what are ways you're experimenting to access writing in a different way that might help you tap into like the vibes of horror that might be different than, your usual writing process or your usual outlining process?
I think that I do that too. Yeah. But also I, I try, I try to scare myself. Yeah. You know what I mean? I'm like, how would like, and I think that like, it's like, I'm not feeling it, then the audience won't feel it. Right. So I try to be my critical audience. You know I'm saying? Like, that's a whack or no one's going to feel that. Yeah. And I really, I really try to like, like really get in touch with what I feel. Yeah.
Right. And I think that years of like writing novels and reading pieces, reading tons of books really practices that empathy muscle. Yeah. And I kind of leave, have that kind of lead when I write. Right. Right. Who is this person? What are they feeling? You know,
Yeah. Yeah. I also think there's a degree of integrity to be unapologetically honest and go like, this is bullshit. Like this, I've seen too many shorts, horror shorts that I'm like at the, at the script level, like they just, there isn't an emotional integrity or, or it's not scary. It's like, like you got to see this on the page. Like when you read it, like what is scary? And I think horror.
is like maybe drug, a drug. Same with comedy. Like you need the audiences habituate to the newest gimmicks. So it's like, I think it takes even more efforts, like reaching the depths of your guts and your heart to think of something that is like hand tremblingly scared.
Shelby Gamble (39:24.558)
And I and I think that like I think that I think that I think that if you lead with humanity first, so take hereditary or even take right. Ryan Coogler's centers. Yes. Right. It's one's a haunted house and the other one's a vampire movie. Yeah. Right. And what really makes those things pop is that you care about the people that's in them. Like, it's not scary if like you don't care anything about, know, you don't care about these characters.
And so, you know, I really, have a good time and I've been told that like, I'm good at crafting characters that people care about. have, people always have some sort of emotional response to a character that I've crafted. And so I feel like I'm going to have fun. like, I'm going to focus probably a little bit more on it. Building this person that we care about this person that has desires and hopes and you know, things that they want. Right. And then you shake them up.
Yeah
Shelby Gamble (40:22.614)
And then that that's what throws people off. It's like, I like so and so they could.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean like the Aristotelian equation is pathosphere catharsis, right? You start you open with pathos How can we as quickly as possible if it is a short film and get the audience to see themselves in the the character they're about to see to have Pathos for them and then you get to play in the fear and then maybe there's catharsis but I think like I'm sure you've seen it but it's in the act it's in the directing in the casting where like
Sometimes I'll see a horror, just like you directed this person or casted a person whose performance style is like snarky shithead and no one relates to like a snarky shithead. So I'm just like tired. You'll be glad. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I just, I'm always shocked. Always shocked.
That they get it.
Shelby Gamble (41:06.638)
It's like they'll be on the monster side. Yeah, I'm on the monster side. Get him. He's a jerk. Yeah, you know, yeah.
Like it's like, even like, you know, it's one thing to like craft character with the scenario and the dialogue, but it's also like finding the right casting of the person who has like a point of view or they embody something that you want to love them or you can see yourself in them. And I think that's also like the magic of what separates a strong.
casting director or a strong director as well from someone who's just like, don't know, this person looks interesting. They're good. Let's take it. Like, I just think it's underrated the degree of sensitivity one needs to have when it comes to choosing actors to play role.
Yeah, it's like, like I did this one film like, like, so 2020, like literally the weekend of the 15th, the last thing I did was shoot a film and I there is this guy who like I was casting this one part of this dude who was kind of be the romantic lead and I'm on a
backstage and I have all these people coming through and you're looking at the reels and you already have an idea. You're like, oh, I like this. I think they're going to be great. And they read and they just you just don't quite see the character like. And then there was this dude, he came in and he read for the part. And I'm just like, like he was like when he left. I a lot of times I cast in like shifts. I'll cast my lead and then I'll like do chemistry reads and the audition to try to find who was vibing.
Shelby Gamble (42:36.77)
So he left and it was me and the other actor and we're looking at each other and we're just like, so it's him.
Yeah, yeah,
So we found the guy because we all were like, so I always appreciate because I have like you have these characters in your mind and part of the casting process is it's like you're meeting this person that you already know. You feel like you that's that's her. know her. There she is. And I always love that. That's such a that's such a forward feeling to like, yeah, you're like, my God, it's you.
Okay
Mishu Hilmy (43:04.622)
Holy f-
Yeah, honestly more often for me it's also like it's better than what I could imagine that's usually why I'm shorter more experimental works I do gender gender neutral writing because it's like our gender race or whatever this sort of identity identity markers I'm more interested in like the the point of view and like willing to work with a cast to like all right let's work together and like rewrite this because I you know
I'm comfortable with my writing and I think that's more enjoyable of like an ensemble process than to like, I think certain functionary roles it's like, no, this has got to be a certain vibe.
We have to tell the story, but...
Yeah, but for us later ones. Yeah. Yeah
Shelby Gamble (43:44.366)
I work with, you know, Kyle. Yeah, he is a he be he improv. So fantastic. And I let it slide because I'm like, I'm entertained. Yeah. Yeah. That's funny as hell. I'm entertained. Like, OK, like, I'm never too precious about the exact words. Yeah. Especially if the emotion is sincere and it's genuine and it's moving the platform. I'm like, all right. Right.
Totally, yeah. think, yeah, very rarely is there, like there's, certain like plot lines, word hard jokes and punch lines, but in general, it's like, if you hit the subtext and the arc and can make it more of your character, do it fine. Like I'm not, like I've written thousands of scripts at this point, like literally thousands. It's like, okay, that's, you're doing it better. You know, you know the character better.
Right. Right. No, I have so much respect for actors. I would never want I would. I did it like years ago when I was in high school and I would never want to do it. Yeah, I did it just enough to respect it, just enough to respect my actors. But it's not I'm having much more fun behind the camera anyway.
Is there a part of process that you find that you prefer, you seem like you have a love of the onset energy? Do you love pre-production, production, post-production, de-singlish-ing? Lately at least, is there a certain part of the process that you find that you're like, I just wish I was doing this more often?
production. Yeah, come on, The energy on set. And it's like it's because the way that I shoot and like, you know, I write direct and I shoot my stuff. But I also like I've also done first AC work. And it's basically it's basically moving. It's basically taking heavy gear and moving it from one location to the next. And it's like the thing about it that I find so fun about it is that it is it is a humbling process. Right. Like
Shelby Gamble (45:34.902)
You you're moving stuff, you're sweaty, you're physically exhausted, breaks you down to where all that is left is creative energy. You're not worried about how you look. You're not worried about the rip in your pants. You're not worried about like your vanity. It strips away everything and you are just left with a pure creative. You feel like a pure creative force. Yeah. And there are things that are happening and you're solving problems.
And if you have like a good creative, like group of folks, like it's amazing, you know? So.
Yeah, yeah, it's like I think that's what makes it so so intense and that's why sometimes I lean away from it because it is kind of it's it's physically exhausting. It's not only project management, but it's manufacturing. You're like you're trying to capture the Ross shots. You're trying to capture all these shots. Yeah, physically moving gear lifting things exerting sweat and breath. Yeah, it's like it's a really intense, you know, eight 10 hour day.
It's it's it's hard. Yeah. And I'm tired. And by the end of it. But there's something there's something that feels so like I feel so alive. Totally right. I'm not sitting at a desk. I'm not like I'm I'm I'm interacting with life. And it's just like you take this camera and you and you're like you're like, I have a plan. And the world is like, no, you don't. I'm going to rain. Yeah. This you're plugging it in there. Guess what?
You blue please like, yeah, and it's it's that sort of energy. And the thing about it is it's like, like you can find like a few if you're open. Right. I'm always positive. I'm always open. If you're open, you can find a shot or something amazing that will happen that you didn't plan for. then and then it can take your your your film in a completely different direction. Right. You know, so yeah, it's it's it's this it's that cathartic sort of like
Shelby Gamble (47:32.27)
It just felt alive doing it. The sweating, the aches and sometimes and the pains and the being there and the adrenaline rush, you know, right. It's just like, oh, I'm going to. Oh, oh, oh, you're you're your first AC. You're going to have to pull focus on an anamorphic lens. 85 millimeter. And it's wide open. You've got like a hair spin of focus. And they're super emotional this scene.
And if you mess up, like all these people are counting on you. Look, is that sort of like very much alive? This will energy that it just like it makes you feel alive. Totally. It's it's worth all of the pain. It's a high. Yeah, it really is. I'm doing it for like commercial work. I'm like, no, we've got five minutes to get this. We don't do it. And then you do it you're like, damn. Yeah. OK, that look good. You know.
So yeah, I think it's like the closest thing to a collaborative sport that like us nerdy artists who don't, you know, haven't played. mean, I like I like sports, but who don't don't like, you know, do it. It's I know it's that feeling. Yeah. I mean, I generally don't like sports, it's more like I like athletics. You know, I like playing tennis and running and going to the gym. But yeah.
No, it is definitely it's definitely that that sort of that energy. So I mean, but it's important. All processes are. Yeah. And I realized this. It's like you're going like I can't think of I think what's his name. Ron Howard. Yeah. He said the film your film is going to break your heart. He says no matter what your film is going to break your heart. So I always know that. Right. Yeah. And it's like a bit as a beat my ass in pre-production. Then it's going to be my ass.
in production and we don't beat my ass and pre-production or production is going to my ass and post. I swear to God, it's going to be my ass somewhere. So it's like, where is it going to be? Is it going to be pre-production? Is it going to be a production? Like I literally like one of the films I did called Bittersweet pre-production was easy. Production was fine. And post-production, I literally I was just like, what did I do? There's no way I like like.
Shelby Gamble (49:33.742)
was off the lights were messed up I was just like what am I gonna do with this film and then I was just like wait turn it into black and white but it took it took a couple of breakdowns like breakdowns staring in front of the screen yeah a little bit drunk
Right.
Mishu Hilmy (50:03.211)
Yeah, totally. Yeah, I think I had like a clean pre clean production clean post production that I got my ass whooped and in releasing no festivals want this. Okay
It's gonna break it's gonna like that's why I always try to be be positive because this is this is a wild and crazy way to live and so you kind of have to be positive because You're gonna need to build that as a buffer because you're gonna get your ass beat right and you're gonna be broken down if you don't
I mean, I think it's a sign of mastery to have a sense of humor versus like a sign of sort of not being quite there is like you're so precious about the mystery of it, right? Like I think of Steven Pressfield in the War of Arts. Like, yeah, if you're obsessed with the mystery of it and the magic of it, like you're not quite at the level of like proficient craftsperson or master rather than like you have humor because you know you're with the best, you know, like your colleagues, your peers, people above or below you are.
experience the same thing. So it's like we have a collective sort of humor about it rather than like, Whoa, is well is me my vision, my precious vision cannot like your vision is never going to happen. It's just impossible.
And like, would you produce things like regardless of maybe a little tick tock or a little piece of content or a feature film? It's like you throw this camera up and you are you are taking images from the world. Right. Like you are in conversation. And it's and that's why I love it, because it's a very it's a very like rooted physical thing that you're interacting with. Yeah.
Shelby Gamble (51:31.51)
Like the world, like you're dealing with light, you're dealing with like the space, you're dealing with sound, you're dealing with all of these physical things to try to craft an image and a story. Like, you know what I mean? So it's not going to go perfect, but I think learning to work with the broken plan or are being adaptable. That's, that's the craft. That's the key right there. Like that is how you become good at it.
Right. Is getting your hours, finding new ways to suck it like, well, this was an awful mistake. Let's not do that next time. Yeah. Well, let's be mindful of this, you know. Right.
Yeah, I think with comedy, it's like learning to love the bomb. think that's Stephen Colbert, just like loving, loving bombing. Similarly, was like, yeah, just like loving, loving as much of it as possible. And I'm curious, like for, I think maybe a couple more questions, like how conscious are you of like taking risks? Like what level of playing with risks do you sort of actively think about project over project? Like this is a risk. This is kind of putting me out of my comfort zone. Like how have you integrated risk taking in your creative process?
I think what it is, it's just like, I mean, like we call it risk, but like I said, I think of it as experiment, right? It's fundamentally like, okay, I never got a shot like this, or I wanna shoot this, I wanna shoot something, like I wanna sneak my camera onto the CTA and go shoot some stuff. But then you can get amazing sorts of shots, right? To me, I think of the risk or the experimentation, it's about
Finding the limits and like you said getting that information about my skill set about my writing about my ability to tell the story and Like if you don't if you don't push your skills if you don't like and we're not talking about taking like illegal risk or unethical risk You were you you value safety. Yeah, you respect your actors you respect their autonomy you you cover your people and I'm really good at
Shelby Gamble (53:30.574)
covering and leading people through this because that's what I used to do at the bank and I was good at it and I don't even love, I don't hate, I love working at the. Yeah, right. So loving your people, right. But also like making sure that you do things as a creative that pushes your skills. And if you remain doing things that you know are going to work, like you can do that. That's what you can do for your job. But as an artist, that's where you push. Right. And if you want to do this work.
Right, but you love people?
Shelby Gamble (53:59.948)
You have to you have to like push, find new ways to tell a story like find, you know, and give yourself limitations. When I when I was writing, I wrote I wrote multiple books, but I published three of them. The first one was to see if I could do it. The second one was like, OK, I want to write this book in parts like, you know, like part one, part two and part three. want to write a book with a thoughtful structure in mind. And then the third book was like and I was writing on. So I was writing ensemble cast. The last book was like, I want to write a book in one person's point of view.
see if I can do it. Yeah. And then I found out that I could do it right. Like my first film was like, me see if I can do a short film. Five minutes. The next film, 18 minutes. The other film 30 minutes. Like my feature 60 minutes. This one's going to be 70, 80 minutes. Right. So you're as you push, as you experiment, you're getting data, you're getting information, you're learning new things, you're learning new techniques. That's like that's how like that that journey, that process. Yeah.
That's the joy. That's the that's the pleasure. That's the fun stuff, you know.
Totally. Given how uncertain the industry is and how it kind of consistently changes and how high cost it is in both time, money and mental health, like how do you stay motivated given the uncertainties?
Well, I think that I think that certainty doesn't exist. Yeah. No matter where you are, the bank that I managed, right. The building has been bought out and that branch no longer exists. That was supposed to be a stable job. I got shot at and had to work through a pandemic. OK, so it's uncertain. If you breathe. It will be uncertain. You may not. You may die in your sleep. You know what I'm saying? So I think you have to embrace the uncertainty and you have to be.
Mishu Hilmy (55:16.078)
Mm.
Mishu Hilmy (55:30.86)
Yeah, period.
Shelby Gamble (55:40.12)
flexible. You have to be adaptable. That is part of experimentation, right? That's part of pushing it to learning things. So when things happen to be adaptable and looking for opportunities to make yourself valuable, having just a little bit of business sense, like I know we're creatives, but we have to understand business on the most fundamental level because it costs money to exist. Food ain't free. You know what I mean? So, and that's it, right? Always trying to push to not only to push as an artist,
but it makes you valuable as a creative. makes you define a brand. It pushes you to the next level. I got to where I'm being paid for this work. The first stuff that was in my reel was stuff I did for free, was stuff that I experimented in my condo. And there's this one beautiful shot that I have in my reel. Dude, that was in my closet, some art. Look, do know the GMV lights, the cheap GMV lights?
No, no, no, are they just like LEDs? These are-
These are the cheapest lights. They got better. But back in the day, five, six years ago, they'll laugh. If you blew on the light too hard, it will fall over. OK. All right. I'm doing that with a small little Michael for thirds camera footage, noisy as hell. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But like, but like that that beginning process is how I built my career. And so everything you do, look for ways to advance, you know.
Yes.
Shelby Gamble (57:04.142)
And that's how you're going to get through this uncertainty. Look for every opportunities. The things that scare you are probably, you need to look at it. You don't need to resent it. You need to look at it. need to understand it. cause AI is coming, figure it out, understand what it's going to do. it's like, it's a people going to use it, be the first one to understand it. know what I mean? So I think that that, that is how you deal with uncertainty. You don't run from it. You know, it's part of the journey. Yeah.
S.P. Well, thank you for sharing and thanks for chatting. This has been fun and you may have convinced me to enjoy production. I usually don't like being upset, but this is lovely and I look forward to the next time we get to hang out and chat.
Yeah, thanks for letting me go off.
Mishu Hilmy (57:52.29)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed the show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your likeness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief Motivation.
Let's play around with the prompt. This one is inspired by the conversation around inventorying. So yeah, here's inventory before inspiration, before starting your next short or script. I don't know. Take 10 minutes to write down everything you currently have access to. Locations, props, gears, friends with skills, et cetera. And then build a one paragraph scene, story or idea using only the items from that list. The nice thing about using
constraints, helps you be a little bit more creative when it comes to problem solving. So give that a shot, spend five, 10 minutes listing a whole bunch of resources you have access to, and try and make a story off of that. All right, have a good one. I'll see you at the next drop.