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Welcome to Earth on the Rocks, a show where we get to know the person behind the science over drinks. Each episode will highlight a new scientist in the earth and atmospheric sciences to learn more about their journey, what interests them, and who they are outside of their science.
Host: Shelby Rader
Producer: Cari Metz
Artwork: Connor Leimgruber
Board Operator: Kate Crum, Betsy Leija
Funding for this podcast was provided by the National Science Foundation grant EAR-2422824.
Hi, folks, and welcome back to Earth on the Rocks, the show where we get to know the person behind the science. I'm Shelby Rader, and we have a special episode today for our season two finale. So we actually have two guests that are joining us. We have Nora Gauss and Kaylor Jasiak, and I wanted to welcome them to the show. Thanks for coming on, you two.
Kaylor:Thanks Shelby. We really appreciate it. Thank you for having us.
Shelby:Of course. So before we sort of get into how this episode may be a little different from others, we're gonna get to know you two over drinks. And so what would be your drink of choice or non choice if you have one?
Kaylor:I think my drink of choice would be anything that's super citrusy. So I love sours, especially like Emiratto Minori. And then I've recently tried Paw Paw Revival
Shelby:Yeah.
Kaylor:Out at Upland, and it so good.
Shelby:I am also a big Centrus fan, and I have mentioned on the show before that there was a Paw Paw flavored LA that came out that I enjoyed, but I don't know that I can have many of them. But Paw Paw is is a unique fruit and a unique flavor, so I'm glad you got to try some.
Kaylor:Yeah. That was really good. I also really like anything passion fruit flavored and lemonade, always.
Shelby:Lemonade's perfect this time of year.
Kaylor:Mhmm.
Shelby:Nora, how about you?
Nora:Like, I prepared an alcoholic and a non alcoholic. Perfect. So if I had a drink of choice, like an alcoholic one, it'd probably be we go to the vid a lot and the vid has a sweetheart drink that is so good. It's very sour. It's like a little candy.
Nora:And then also non alcoholic, I am just always been a hot chocolate drinker. Like even in the summer.
Shelby:Even in the summer.
Nora:It's not
Shelby:weather dependent.
Nora:No, it's not. And I I didn't really grow up drinking coffee, so that's what I would drink in high school.
Shelby:Yeah. When I was an undergrad, there was a restaurant in town that had a frozen hot chocolate. And so during the summer, it was really good to get the frozen hot chocolate.
Nora:Chocolate milk's also good.
Shelby:That's Oh,
Kaylor:Oberweiss?
Shelby:Oh, yes. Was that?
Kaylor:Do you know Oberweiss? Like, in the glass bottle? No. They have this really good chocolate milk. They have other milks too.
Kaylor:But it comes in this glass bottle so you can reuse it, basically. You can turn it back into the wherever you got it. Right. But their chocolate milk is just really rich and creamy, and it's so good. Good.
Kaylor:I always had it after swim practices. Okay.
Shelby:I'm putting it on my to drink list. So Kaylor and Nora, can you tell listeners a little bit about your role in the departments? You're both students. And what the plan is for this episode.
Kaylor:Yeah, absolutely. So we are both here from the GeoClub. Yes. And I'm the treasurer.
Nora:I am this year's president.
Shelby:And what is GeoClub?
Nora:Yeah, so GeoClub is our department organization. It's the geology club. And it's largely aimed at undergraduate students, though we do accept kind of anyone to come in. And we just do mainly social events. It's targeted on outreach as well as just fostering community in the department.
Nora:So we have events. We have fun things like movie nights, study nights, but also we do trips. We have outreach events like this and also Picnic for the Planet on Tuesday. So really just trying to get people to know about geology and part of our department.
Shelby:And I know that you all do a lot of fun events, and you mentioned some of those. And so the idea for this show is that you all are coming on as representatives of GeoClub, and I guess sort of more broadly, maybe representatives of some of the undergrad students in the department. And so you all have some questions for me, think. So we're
Kaylor:we're sort of
Shelby:flipping the roles a little bit.
Kaylor:Flipping the script.
Shelby:Yeah. Know. I'm getting a little nervous now.
Nora:Oh
Shelby:goodness. So, yeah, that's how how we're gonna lead things off today. So I kinda will will let you all take it from here if you want to. Oh.
Kaylor:Yeah. Absolutely. Well, just to do a quick introduction first. I said I was part of the GeoClub, but I'm also a graduate student in the department who, at this point I'm not in a master's program and I'm not in a PhD program. I'm just taking graduate classes because I'm applying to PhD programs currently trying to get into a particular grad school in hazards and volcanology.
Kaylor:I want to combine the two and come up with a really interesting project if possible. And so is Nora Yes. But not with hazards.
Nora:So I'm an undergraduate. I'm a senior graduating in, like, less than a month now.
Shelby:Exotic.
Nora:And I'm also looking to pursue graduate research and graduate education. And I work with Doctor. Kenduras on also a volcanic processes project, where I look at specifically the interactions between volcanic eruptions and climate change for my senior thesis.
Shelby:Here I said we're going flip the script. It's a And I'm going to jump in and ask questions anyway. Can you all talk a little bit about what your undergrad experience was like? And then what things have been like as you have been applying to graduate schools.
Kaylor:Yeah. Absolutely. So I think we both had kind of a crazy undergrad experience because I started the year of COVID.
Shelby:So 2020?
Kaylor:Yes. In 2020, 2020. And I started out in New York in Poughkeepsie. And that was absolutely the worst place to possibly be in a program as a starting out, like, college student. So after everything that happened with COVID, essentially, our school, it didn't shut down on the books, but students weren't allowed to go to class.
Kaylor:They were kinda told stay in your room, like don't talk to people, which is the worst for someone who's trying to bridge out and find new things to do. So I started out as pre med and after that that didn't work out at that school, I switched back to Indiana because I'm from Indiana and it was just nicer to be closer to home and closer to my support system. And then I went to Marion for a year and I did art school there. And then I transferred again because I wanna do a study abroad. And so I came to IU and I've been here for the past like three or four years.
Kaylor:Three years to do finish my undergrad and a fourth year to do this extra work. And I started out in anthropology and I ended up getting a minor in anthropology, but I also was able to do a study abroad and my first study abroad was out in Italy for a semester and one of the courses we took while we were out there was a geology course on hazards with Professor Michael Hamburger. It was amazing and I And loved also, I had never really thought in a real way about doing volcanoes as a job as a geologist. Yeah. It was just something that I was in my mind, I was like, that was so cool.
Kaylor:I heard about all the history with Vesuvius and volcanoes around the world because my mom is a pilot as well. And so she would always talk about volcanoes because it related to her work. Had to things.
Shelby:Yeah.
Kaylor:Yeah. So I was always really interested from that perspective. And so then I was like, you know what? And I had also taken an introductory geology course with doctor Elizabeth Ganderas. And after those two experiences, I was like, I'm gonna do geology.
Kaylor:This is what I wanna do. Like, I can be outside for my job and have a great time. Say less. Sold. Yes.
Kaylor:Yes. I'll study volcanoes. I'll study hazards. I'll study people. Fantastic.
Kaylor:So I finished out having two majors, one in geology, and I did a BA instead of a BS because I didn't wanna take all those hard classes because I might as well just take a higher level like geochemistry and I'll figure it out because it's applied, you know? Right. I don't have to take Orgo or whatever. And then I also had a Polish language because my family is loosely Polish and we're from the Chicago area. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna connect to my roots and now my brother will only speak to me in Polish because he likes to gossip.
Kaylor:And I had a minor in anthropology. And now, I'm trying to continue on and we'll see how it goes. But unfortunately, the process of going and trying to do grad school has been challenging, I suppose, which I didn't think it was not going to be challenging, but it hasn't been challenging in the ways I expected. I thought it was just gonna be more rigorous in terms of like, oh, like your grades didn't make the cut or something like that, which it wasn't a problem for me. But most of the feedback I've received this year when I've been going through this, like even when I met several months earlier with potential advisors, they were like, we don't know about the funding.
Kaylor:Like, we cannot tell you about the funding, like, apply but we can't give you any definite. You're a great student. We like talking to you. We like the fit, the vibe, but we don't know about the funding. And so I've learned about the funding for many, many universities now.
Kaylor:And I've started getting replies back and I should have gotten more but that's another point. The ones I have received so far, I've had an acceptance but it was an acceptance without funding. And they were like, we're really sorry, none of our grants have come back yet. We don't know. We can't give you a definite.
Kaylor:So we'll accept you, but we can't promise you any sort of funding. And then they also were like, we will try to open up a TA spot. We'll try to open up an RA spot. But even for, like, the highest qualified candidates, there might not even be those opportunities for them either, depending on the department. And at some of these universities, are geology departments in whatever form they take.
Kaylor:They're just not at the top of the list for who gets funding from the school. Yeah. So it's been pretty difficult, to be honest. But it's a good learning experience, and I'm not gonna give up.
Shelby:So Yeah. I mean, I think I wanna hear Nora's experiences too, and and then maybe that would be worth us sort of collectively at least mentioning about how funding works for grad school and and what that looks like from both sides of the coin. Yeah.
Nora:So, well, I feel like I just learned a lot about Kaylor. Yeah. I I knew you were a transfer. I did not know you had a little stint in art school. Yes.
Nora:I I'm a transfer student as well, so I went to University of Colorado for three semesters and then took a gap semester to kind of figure out what I wanted to do and ended up coming to IU because I'm also from Indiana. So that same kind of idea of being close to home. But also, my experience in the department has just been, like, amazing. It's a big part of my life. It's a big part of my friends and my community.
Nora:And I, you know, I work there. I also do geology clubs. So a lot of my day to day life takes place at the Geology Building. But it it was really great, and I think coming to IU was the right choice in getting to experience the department because everyone has just been so like, this faculty faculty and the staff, but also the students have just been great. And it sounds like we are a uniquely tight knit group of students and group of faculty.
Nora:So it's been a very good experience. And then yeah, so I'm a senior. I'm graduating in May after actually, I guess in August after field camp. So also that process of trying to figure out how to continue on, rather if that's pursuing grad school or something else before going to grad school.
Shelby:Yeah. I think right now, like Kaylor mentioned, the funding situation federally, which is where a lot of funding for graduate programs comes from, has been really tough. Know, there's been cuts to federal programs, there's been a lot of delays even once budgets are agreed to for different programs for those funds to be released to them, and if they're not released from Congress to those programs those programs can't release them to universities. And on this side of things when we're looking at graduate student recruitment we're having to balance our sort of needs in terms of teaching because we do have AI or TA positions depending on where you are that help with teaching and some of that funding helps cover student support. But a lot of it also comes from these these federal funds and we and I think a lot of geoscience programs, earth and atmospheric programs, don't like to extend offers to students unless we can guarantee support for the entire time that they're a student.
Shelby:And so if you're a master's student, that might be for two years. If you're a PhD student, that might be for four to five years depending on the program. And used to, you could plan those things several years in advance because you had a better sense of what research grants were coming through. And now it's so slow and it's so up in the air that it is really hard to plan even sometimes for the next year, much less, you know, three or four years down the line. So it is a really tough time, and anybody that's listening that maybe has applied to grad school and is waiting to hear back or has heard back things like, we'd love to have you, but there's no funding.
Shelby:It's not a reflection of you as a student by any means. It's just an unfortunate reflection of the federal funding landscape and and how slow that has been the last few years.
Kaylor:Yeah. That that makes sense. And it reflects a lot of what I've heard from potential advisers and especially at R1 institutions. That's where they make you have the full funding upfront. And so I was only applying to R1 institutions just from advice.
Kaylor:I had heard from my different faculty mentors. And, yeah, it is what it is. But, so I'm interested in anthropology and this time in my life and also this time in the world and in The US is incredibly interesting with anthropology. So even though, like, personally, I might be feeling the sting from my own, like, mind, I'm having a great time. I'm picking this apart.
Kaylor:I'm like, oh, how fascinating. Okay.
Shelby:Yeah. So one, for people that are listening, Kaylor mentioned mentioned this idea of an R1 institution. And so a lot of times, universities are ranked according to research productivity and sort of the highest ranking. So that equates to some of the highest research productivity and that measured in grant dollars and things like students that have graduated through graduate programs and publications is referred to as an R1 . So that's the, you know, number one tier of research.
Shelby:But two, you know, you said you started during 2020. Nora, you probably would have started
Nora:I started 2022.
Shelby:Okay. But maybe still feeling some lingering effects. But you definitely experienced it through high school. Like, you're all's generation, not to make myself sound really old, but you all have lived through some really, hopefully unique, times. And so I think your perspective of trying to embrace that in ways that you can is a positive way to try to look at that because I can find that pretty challenging, I would think.
Kaylor:Yeah. Well, it's come to a point, especially with all the challenges that have happened to just students in general during the last few years, you have to have a mentality of this is just an interesting thing that happened to me this year, next year is gonna be different. Because no matter how you slice it, really horrifying things are happening worldwide and also with like COVID and stuff in a way that hasn't been experienced before in many people's lifetimes. And so we don't have anything built in. There was no framework for you
Shelby:all before that to like know how to approach these sort for anybody to know how to approach these sorts of things.
Kaylor:Yeah. So we had to work through a lot of failure. Yeah. Like at many stages, many levels. Failure, loneliness, isolation, all of these things while trying to be in a environment which we're actively learning, we're actively working.
Kaylor:Like personally, I have several jobs and so we're doing all these things at once and you just have to make it through or else you're gonna be in a really bad place. And and thankfully for me, especially in geology, academics, like it gave me a chance to go outside. It gave me a chance to question the world in a way that removed me from the human study. So I was able to find my own footing again because I could take my experiences out of context and take a step back and basically touch grass.
Shelby:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think like, you all are a resilient group. I'm saying this collectively for your your generation, but I know you two specifically too.
Shelby:And, you know, you all are here as part of GeoClub, and I think the community that you all have been able to build for GeoClub is so nice to see. And I love when you all talk about it because I can tell that everybody who is a member of it, you know, just really gets a lot out of it. And I think that it's important to highlight that that's driven by you all. You all have been able to make that happen. So kudos to you.
Kaylor:Yeah. Well, honestly, think it's the confluence of Nora said, we had a really unique situation in our department where it's just for whatever reason, everyone gels really well and all the grad students, all the faculty members, all the undergrads, we're in a good place. The department is the right size, we have the right people, it's the right time and so we're hitting our stride. And at least in the GeoClub, it's really nice because we'll have grad students come in and they'll watch movies with us and they'll also answer questions, give advice, and we'll also be able to do all these different outreach events for people, for students who are thirsting for this, who are thirsting for knowledge, who are thirsting for a different purpose. And through our interactions, we're able to advance ourselves as well because, like, personally, I didn't know anything about the Crossroads Conference that IU holds in the geology department, but because I was doing the GeoClub already, I was able to make connections with a lot of the grad students who were running the show and they had an open position so I was able to jump in as a presenter liaison and that was an amazing experience.
Kaylor:So it is a beautiful time to be in the department. And also just, I really do love all the personalities that are involved. It's a great time.
Shelby:We'd love to hear it.
Nora:Yeah. I I would agree. I mean, I love the support of the department that we've received because I I do think geo clubs are very rewarding, but it was also a bit of a uphill battle where trying to get people interested and then hold that interest. And coming in this year, we didn't have a ton of information. We didn't have really any leadership going into the year, which did get things started a little bit later.
Nora:And then also, like, I've never done this before. I don't think Kaylor's done this before. So trying to come up with ways to be creative and inventive with what we can do in the club while also trying to balance like, you try to look at a geology related activity. And in many cases, it's not exactly geared for college age students. So it's like, what do people our age want to see?
Nora:What do we want to do? And how can we tie it back to creating this community in the geosciences? And I think we've been largely pretty successful. I definitely feel, at the very least, that we've set a basis for future iterations of the club that hopefully improve on what we've done.
Shelby:Yeah. I think you all have done a great job of building this community just from what I've been able to see this So with that, I know GeoClub has questions or things you all want chat about. So yeah, what do the people want to know?
Nora:Yeah. So for, I guess, the listeners, we were thinking about doing a podcast episode with Shelby that included the entire club and kind of a q and a session with her. But you you only get us, you know. Just limitations of the Space. Yeah.
Nora:The space.
Shelby:Yeah. You all are you all are great representatives.
Nora:Thank you. So, yeah. We've we've brought some questions of our own and also some questions from people in the department and in the club that kinda wanna know about you as well. Mhmm. I know, Kaylor, you were really excited if you do you wanna start?
Nora:Sure.
Kaylor:Okay. So honestly, Shelby, you must have thirty hours in the day for everything that you do. But on that note, can you just tell us about what you do on a day to day basis or even per month that gets you involved in your community? Like, I just saw you were accepted into a showmaker.
Shelby:Storymaker. Storymaker. Yes. Yeah. So, I mean, I don't I don't wanna be super long winded, but if if I get off track, you all wrangle me back.
Shelby:Yeah. Mean, grew up in a small community and, you know, in a place that I don't think that that geology was necessarily, like, something that was on the the forefront of anybody's mind, which I feel like is probably pretty common.
Kaylor:Mhmm.
Shelby:And so as I've, like, found my place in the the geoscience community as a student and then as I've gone on in my career, it's always been really important for me to try to, like, find ways to to open up space to make that community bigger because it like you all have talked about, it's such a fun group of people to be with. And I think we are really lucky in our department that we have the sort of collegiality that we do across faculty, student, staff. But I also think broadly, like geosciences is a really fun field to be in and people tend to be really welcoming and interesting and, you know, unique personalities. So yeah, like some of the things that I try to do to sort of have those connections like this podcast, for example, has been, you know, like a passion project of mine that was lucky enough to get partially funded by an NSF grant. And it has been this really great opportunity to get to know people that I that I already know, but I learn new things about them whenever I talk with them here.
Shelby:So I have genuinely loved being able to do this. And like this season having students come on, having you all here for example has just been really exciting and I've loved it. And the story makers program that you mentioned is a really amazing program that I had found out about and applied to and was lucky enough to be recently accepted to where it's folks who who are, like, professionals in different forms of media, of storytelling, that work with people in environmental sciences to better communicate their work or for specific, you know, goals that they have in mind. And so, yeah, my aim with that is is to, like, learn from the best for how you can improve something like this podcast, how you can reach a bigger audience, how you can better frame stories that you're trying to tell so that they're really approachable for different groups of people. And I think that's a really important aspect of what we do as scientists is being able to communicate to different groups what we're working on.
Shelby:Is that answering the question?
Kaylor:Yeah, absolutely. And also just on like the practical side of these things, how do you find these opportunities? And also, obviously you have many, many students. How are you getting this funding? Like it's amazing because I am friends, like we are friends with a lot of the people who work in your clean lab.
Kaylor:And also, like, you've got a nice swanky spot in MSB two. And how do you organize all this stuff? Like, it must be incredibly complicated.
Shelby:Well, you know, I think it's it's interesting in some ways. If you go through graduate school, a lot of your training is research, research, research. So like, how do you come up with a research question? How do you come up with methodology to test that research question? How do you then put your data together in a way that you communicate it, whether that be in figures, a talk, or ultimately what you write up as your thesis or dissertation?
Shelby:I think most programs, not all, you get zero formal training in teaching. You get almost no formal training in grant writing. Maybe you're writing grants along the way, but it's usually just with sort of the assistance of maybe your advisor or your committee and you get no formal training in managing and that could be like managing budgets or managing lab spaces or managing people because ultimately as a faculty member with a research group that's a big part of what you're doing is like learning how to work with your research group and students that are coming and going and like to me finding ways to empower them. So you have almost no actual training in what ultimately becomes, I don't know, like maybe 80% to 90% of your job. So a lot of it is sort of, for me, learning on the fly.
Shelby:And so I really try to be sort of malleable in my approach and vary that with different students. And, you know, a big part of a lot of that I view is networking too and not just networking across similar levels like faculty to faculty, but I view like interactions with students as opportunities to network too because I get to know about them. I get to learn from you all. I think that's one of the best things about teaching and getting to do research with students is I'm always learning new stuff from them. So I really feel like it's a very collaborative sort of process.
Shelby:But there is there's been a learning curve for me. There's always a learning curve. Like, I I always try to continue to learn and and change how I approach these different things so that hopefully things are are sort of organized in a way that students feel like they're supported and, like, they have guidance that they need and want, but not so much that they feel like, you know, they're not independent scientists because that's ultimately my goal for anybody that I get to work with is to give them the confidence and the skill set for them to to, like, branch out on their own and, you know, go do amazing things. So, yeah, it's sort of a a back and forth of of me figuring out what works, it's different for each person that I've interacted with. So I just try to be flexible and, yeah, and find common ground.
Shelby:With that part of it is also fun too.
Nora:Yeah. I wanted to go back to the podcast and ask, you've obviously had a very rewarding experience with this outreach. Was this always part of your plan to do a podcast? Did outreach come in different forms? How did you arrive decision to start this?
Shelby:Yeah, think that's a great question. I've always been really invested in outreach even when I was a student just because, like I said, I think probably a lot of students, you go through you know like middle school and high school when you're thinking about careers for most people things under earth and atmospheric sciences are not the things that first come to mind you know and even when you're getting trained in in like STEM films it's usually things like, oh, if you go into the job market or into graduate school, there's these clear paths in chemistry or biology or physics that lead to these sorts of jobs and at least where I was, and I think in a lot of states because earth sciences isn't necessarily a requirement for high school students to take, that sort of, like, clear trajectory isn't made. And so I wasn't thinking about it. So I've always thought that outreach was important for that aspect just so people know, like, hey. We do really fun stuff.
Shelby:Like, you can be outside in these really beautiful locations. You can be in these really strange clean labs that you would never think of when you're thinking about rocks and minerals. You can work on computers. You can fly drones. I mean, the the umbrella of things that you can have exposure to is really wide, and so I have always been passionate about that.
Shelby:I also was a first generation college student, and so outreach has been important to me to show people, like, there's all these opportunities. Most of them are paid for. There's really great experiences out there where you wouldn't have to take on debt or a lot of debt at least and and like really get a lot out of those things. And so when it came time to think about sort of outreach that I wrote into this NSF grant that was funded, like, one, I, and people who listen may not believe this because I did start a podcast, but I hate to be the center of attention, and I I hate being, like, on camera. So at least with the podcast, there's no video component.
Shelby:People have asked me, like, are you ever considering doing a video component? And I'm like, no. I don't think I could handle that. It's bad enough having to hear my voice back whenever I listen to these for editing. And, like, the podcast felt like a really approachable media, you know, that people could listen to at any time and, you know, I I hope feels casual when people come on.
Shelby:You all can speak to that a little bit. Yeah. It's just like a way to make the whole thing and the people involved more approachable. And when I set out to do this, kinda had ideas for what I wanted it to look like, but it's also sort of evolved along the way. And it's just been so much fun.
Shelby:I have have really loved it. And so I hope we get to keep doing this for for a long time.
Nora:Yeah. So that's a great answer about outreach, by the way. It is very approachable to be on this kind of environment on the other side of the microphone, so to speak.
Shelby:Well, and you all are great at it, too. Oh, you. Yeah. Everybody just come on. Honestly, the guests make the show.
Shelby:And it makes my job really easy.
Nora:I did want to ask about your research. So you work with the Clean Lab. Was that something you came into IU knowing that you were going to be doing, the metal isotopes lab, or did that evolve during your career?
Shelby:Yeah, that's also a great question. So for folks that are listening, if you haven't ever seen or thought about what we're calling a clean lab, I work in a trace metal clean lab. So it's as metal free as you can possibly make a space. And the idea with that is you want the area to be really, really pure and have very low exposures for any sorts of metals because that's what we're measuring. And we're really interested in metals that often are in pretty low concentrations.
Shelby:And so if we had contamination from things like sinks or faucets or even metal fume hoods, that could impact our results. And so when I was a grad student, I started working on a project looking at basically metal isotopes. So how very small changes in mass of the same metal can impact different geological or biological processes and how we can use that to sort of track what's happening within the Earth. So like where are these metals coming from? How are they being moved around?
Shelby:Are they entering the food chain? Are people being exposed to them? We can use these isotopic systems to help answer some of those questions. And I'll at the time was sort of work. Some of my work was in a clean lab there.
Shelby:I was at University of Arizona, and some of it was in, like, a semi clean lab, and we had areas within the lab that were clean. And so to have these, you know, technical clean spaces, you want no metal and you also want it to be HEPA filtered. So like the highest level of air filtration so there's no particles coming into the space that that you don't want there. You know, I was really excited by the work I did there. And so as I was thinking about what was next and applying for postdoc positions, I knew I wanted to stay in that same realm.
Shelby:So I did a postdoc also working in heavy metals, but in different ones than I had done as a grad student. And so when I came here to IU, it actually was sort of a really lucky way that it all worked out. There was a clean lab that had already been built here, and there was instrumentation for measuring these metals, and the previous faculty member had left for another institution, and so they needed somebody to come in and and basically make sure that the lab was still functioning. And so I got hired here as a research scientist. And so as a research scientist, my whole job was research focused.
Shelby:So 50% of my time was dedicated to making sure the lab and instruments were running properly, and the other 50% was doing my own research or helping facilitate research for other faculty members and students. And then that was in 2019. So in 2020, as Kaylor mentioned, you know, COVID happened, and there were several people in our department that retired a little earlier than they had originally planned because of that, which I don't I don't blame them. That that was a, you know, a tough adjustment to go from in person, especially for geology classes where you look at rocks and minerals and thin sections to virtual and to have to do it really abruptly. So anyway, then the department needed somebody to teach classes that were already listed on the books.
Shelby:And so I ended up starting to teach that year and did that for a couple of years and loved it. Like, got to, you know, work with students and talk about really exciting things in classes and see them get excited. And then that developed into some research projects that they were interested in, and and that was really, really rewarding. And so then I was converted to a tenure track faculty position in 2022 and, yeah, have gotten to continue in the clean lab since then.
Nora:That's great.
Shelby:Yeah. Can
Nora:you give the listeners a little bit of a visualization of what it looks like before you go into the clean lab?
Shelby:Yeah. So the lab itself again, we try to have no metal in there. The only exposed metal, and it's not technically exposed, are the sprinkler heads. And they are metal because I don't know that they make nonmetal sprinkler heads, but they're coated in wax. So so that also is at least covered up.
Shelby:But everything in there is plastic. So the fume hoods are plastic. The lot fixtures are plastic, and they're sealed up so that there's no exposed anything. The sink is plastic. The faucet is plastic.
Shelby:Plastic. The The eye eye wash wash is is plastic. Plastic. The paint is a special epoxy based paint because typical paint has zinc in it, and we don't want zinc because it can contaminate. Zinc is actually really hard to keep low backgrounds of, and so any way that you can eliminate it, you even have to use special gloves, and you try to avoid some latex gloves because they have zinc in them.
Shelby:So it's it's totally I mean, as much as it can be, it's totally plastic. The cabinets are plastic. The countertops are not plastic. They're more of like a resin based, but some form of that. And so before you go in, you don't want to bring in any contamination from outside because even things like dust on the bottoms of your shoes can have a surprising amount of of metals, not anything that would be dangerous, but things that if we were to introduce them to our samples, could really skew our results.
Shelby:And so before you go in, you take your shoes off and you put on a clean suit, which is the epitome of high fashion. I know, like, Claudia talked about fashion when she was on the show. I think she probably would love these clean suits. They go from ankle to neck to wrist, and they zip up the front, and they're these big, white, billowy suits. You kinda look like the Michelin Man,
Kaylor:if anybody
Shelby:Then has seen you put on gloves, you put on goggles, you have to put on a hair net. And so that way if there's any dust in your hair, it doesn't come off. Then you put on shoes that have only ever been in the lab and were cleaned before they went in the lab. And so we have this whole host of Crocs that are different sizes that people slip on. And then we have a sticky mat in front of the door into the cleaning room where you step on the sticky mat with your Crocs and get any, like, potential bits of dust off the bottom, and then you go in.
Shelby:And so, yes, very, very fashionable, genuinely very comfortable. And so that part of it is nice. But it it is a very different environment and one, again, that I don't think when you think of geology and rocks and minerals and soils that you would envision needing a space that is that clean and that free of anything that could come into your samples.
Kaylor:To be honest, geochemistry blows my mind at times.
Shelby:Mine too. Still does.
Kaylor:The clean lab is definitely one of those places. But how do you get all these materials, all these plastic components without any metals in them? I feel like in the production of a lot of these, it wouldn't be considered whatsoever. So do you have to get these from, like, a special place?
Shelby:So it's it's special types of plastic that are used. And, yeah, a lot of them are sort of manufactured with this in mind, which also means that they're very expensive. So, maybe that's one aspect of running a lab that again you don't ever get training for, but running any sort of lab is expensive to maintain. But a clean lab especially, the air that comes into the clean lab is HEPA filtered and we have to replace those HEPA filters every so often and they're really expensive. The last last time just to throw out numbers that we had to replace them and I think there are maybe seven or eight of them in the clean lab.
Shelby:Do you all want to guess actually how much it would cost to replace seven to eight HEPA filters in a clean lab?
Kaylor:$20,000.
Nora:Woah. Okay. I don't know. I was gonna say closer to $3,000.
Shelby:It was $18,000. Oh, wow.
Nora:Okay. Yeah. You were very
Shelby:close. So it is it's really expensive. And, you know, I think this is maybe getting off on a sidebar and definitely not on a soapbox. But sometimes people will hear about the dollar amounts associated with grants and think, like, oh my gosh. This is a waste of taxpayer dollars.
Shelby:And the vast majority of grant funding goes to student support. It goes to pay for graduate students to be able to live and to be able to do research. That is by far the biggest portion of any grant that I've ever been associated with, even the ones that didn't get funded, and there are many of those. But then you also have to account for the infrastructure of these sorts of things and for us to do the work that we're doing, which I think, again I'm gonna be really biased, has really important implications for people and their health. You have to be able to have a clean lab and that means you have to replace, you know, filters every few years, and it is expensive.
Shelby:And, like, that sort of thing actually doesn't go into grants at all. I have to find other ways to cover those costs, but but it is just an expensive way to to work, but it has really, really positive payoffs that that impact a lot of things in people's day to day lives. Right.
Kaylor:Yeah. Absolutely. And you also are able to do collaborations with, like, the greenhouse, correct? Yeah.
Shelby:A lot of the work that we're focused on now is looking at how these metals that are moved around geologically then end up in the food chain. So a lot of these metals move into plant material either because they're essential nutrients for plants, but at some concentration they then become dangerous or they're non essential but they are the same size and the same charge as essential ones. So plants can't tell the difference. They think this is something I need when in reality they don't and so it ends up in plant material. Then those plants can get eaten by animals or by us and so that's a really effective way for these metals to enter the food chain and so there's obviously lots of human health implications with that.
Shelby:And so a lot of the work we're doing now is trying to figure out what controls that. Are there ways that we can actually use that to our benefit to clean up areas that maybe are contaminated in a cost effective way or to figure out where these metals are coming from so we can stop the outflow of them into the environment. And so to do that, we're doing some greenhouse work where we have a research greenhouse here on campus, which is another great resource that we get to use. And we can you know, mix up pots of different material, grow different plants, and see how those plants respond. And so I really enjoy that because it's this really tangible part of what we do.
Shelby:It also makes the work really accessible because because the greenhouse is here, you can start a research project basically any time of the year. You don't have to wait for a field season to go out to the field. You you don't have to time it with spring break so that you don't have to miss classes. You can just go to the greenhouse. It's right down the street off of 10th Street and start an experiment or check-in on things.
Nora:Yeah, I'm glad we got around to talk about your research. So you're currently looking at specifically one of the metals you look at is thallium, correct? Yeah. Can you talk a bit about the significance of thallium for people who might not know?
Shelby:Yeah, and I'd say almost nobody knows. There are very few people who care about it. But I like to think that that group of people is growing. So thallium is this heavy metal that has very few actual purposes. There are some areas that are mined for a thallium, mostly for things on the industrial side, so manufacturing of small amounts of different materials.
Shelby:But for the most part, it's not something that we really care about. I was interested in thallium in grad school because I was working with an economic geology group. So a group that was interested in in metal deposits and how they form and how we can find more resources of those things. And and we need a lot of that material for, you know, our current way of life with electronics, but also as we move to things like lithium ion batteries and wind turbines and solar panels. So, yeah, thallium ended up being this element that a lot of mining companies had been interested in for decades because it tended to have these really high concentrations in rocks that were near gold deposits.
Shelby:So while the companies didn't wanna mine thallium, they did wanna mine gold, and it was easier to find geochemical blips of thallium than it was to find geochemical blips of gold, which might have been further below the surface. And so that's where I started being interested in it. And then it also has a very similar chemistry to potassium, which we we as humans need for a lot of biological functions. Plants, animals need a lot of potassium, but we can't distinguish between the two because they're so chemically similar. And so thallium can very easily move into things like plants and then enter the food chain and result in human health impacts.
Shelby:And there are very few places globally where thallium poisoning is an issue, but the places where it is, you know, finding ways to help remediate that can be really important.
Kaylor:Yeah. Absolutely. On more of, like, an outreach side of things, Nora and I mentioned earlier that we know a lot of the people you do have in your lab, either as undergraduates or as graduates. And how do you find these people to work in your lab? Or do they come up to you?
Kaylor:Or is there some sort of outreach that you are already doing that are drawing these people? Because you've got some really great grad students. I know you've, like, recruited.
Shelby:So I mean, I How do you do this? I have been so lucky to just work with so many amazing students. Like, all the things that they have been able to do, I'm so grateful for and just feel really fortunate at every level, like, undergrads and grad students both. And so sometimes it's been, you know, like students that I've had in class. There have been some undergrads who have worked in the the lab, and, like, they've approached me after class and said, hey.
Shelby:You mentioned this really weird lab. I'd kinda like to see if I could work in there. Sometimes I'll have positions that have funding available, and so I'm actively looking for folks. And so I might, you know, send out emails to the department or I might send emails out to different listservs online that that are targeted towards, you know, people that might be interested in geochemistry. Lately, I've had some people that have reached out and said, hey.
Shelby:We heard the podcast. Really? Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. It sounds like you're doing some cool stuff.
Shelby:Are you recruiting students this year? And yeah. So that that has been a good part of it too. But yeah. I mean, the short of it is I just have been really, really fortunate to get to work with really great people, even just teaching people who haven't come through the lab, you know, getting to teach some of the people I've gotten to teach has just been such a great experience and is the highlight of what I get to do.
Shelby:Well, thank you both for coming on. I have not felt like I've been on the hot seat, which is great. And even though I don't like to be the center of attention, hopefully great. Hopefully, this is for a good cause. It is.
Shelby:We always end our episodes with our yes, please segments. And I wanted to let you all have the chance to go first for your one minute to talk excitedly, passionately about something that interests you in the moment. Ugh. Nora, you were you were put on the the
Nora:hot seat to. So I need a thing. I believe I've been delegated going first. Well,
Shelby:Then if you're ready
Nora:I can be ready.
Shelby:Okay. This is Nora's one minute, yes please. Take it away.
Nora:Yeah. So I'm gonna be talking about the books I've been reading recently. So the one that I just finished is it's actually a non fiction book. It's about geology, which I think fits perfectly. It is called Salt Lakes, an Unnatural History that is about salt lakes, which is something I'm not, in my research and in my education, I don't really get to learn about.
Nora:So it was really cool. It was a book that went over eight or nine different salt lakes. And part of their experiences, it talked about not only the remediation of places like Lake Mono, but also why we need these systems. So it was very interesting, as well as something that wasn't what I usually am interested in. And I think one of the reasons I love reading so much is because it brings me into new, different, interesting disciplines and fields.
Nora:Even though that this is geology, it's something I didn't know about. So it was very good. And I care lot about Salt Lakes now.
Shelby:That's amazing. I won't spend much time here, but on the way back, I'll have to tell you, I have done some work at Mona Lake. Oh, really? And this summer, I'm going out to the field to do some work around the Great Salt Lake because we have a research project going on there.
Nora:That's so exciting. Yeah. It's beautiful.
Shelby:Alright. Kaylor, have you had you had your time to think?
Kaylor:Yes, I have.
Shelby:Okay. This will be your Yes, Please segment taken away.
Kaylor:Alright. I'm gonna describe my favorite type of vacation. So I really love when I have field camps anywhere in the world, like I've had one out in Utah, one in Tanzania, one in Italy and it's my favorite type of vacation because I get to be in a place and have someone explain everything to me and we also sometimes have like special permissions to go to places that people don't normally get to see and usually travel is covered and everything is inclusive in like, I don't know, you'll pay a certain fee or the department will pay a certain fee. And it's amazing. You get to learn and be in a place and be engaged and also for geology especially, you get to move around.
Kaylor:It's fantastic. 15. So I don't know. That's that's my my take.
Shelby:That that's I agree wholeheartedly. Geology field trips are that's what got me whenever I was an undergrad to really be interested was a trip that we took. Yeah, they are all inclusive. We should start advertising them that way. Yeah.
Shelby:Like a resort.
Nora:Yeah, that first field trip is always a really good highlight of a freshman year in geology. Yeah.
Shelby:So we're also gonna have Betsy do a Yes Please segment. Betsy is the one who makes us sound even halfway decent behind the scenes. I owe everything to Betsy. She has been such a great help and is graduating. I'm so excited for her, but I'm gonna be so sad
Betsy:I'm so sad already To just thinking about it.
Shelby:To lose her. And so I'm so happy that you will do a yes, please, for
Nora:us.
Betsy:Yeah. Of course. I'm just I'm really feeling really honored that I was asked. Okay, so, oh gosh, I was thinking about this the entire show, but yes please to wearing jewelry made out of things that you don't really think about. I was looking at my ring.
Betsy:I have this spoon ring that I just bought a couple weeks ago. And I've always wanted a spoon ring. I've always thought that they're really interesting. And there's this girl here in town who her name is Katie, and she makes spoon rings, and spoon necklaces and spoon earrings. So, yes, please.
Betsy:Start wearing spoons and other interesting things. I have safety pins that sometimes I wear as earrings. I have, I also have buttons that I have turned into headbands, and I wanna turn some into bracelets and rings. And I have, like, this string of ribbon that I use as a choker sometimes. And maybe I'll string a little button on there.
Betsy:But, yeah, let's all just wear really random stuff on our bodies and call it jewelry.
Shelby:Yes. I love it. Used to make jewelry pretty consistently. I did metalsmithing and it was through a class and the instructor was like one of the most unique people I'd ever met. He could take anything and turn it into like the most amazing beautiful piece of jewelry that you've ever seen.
Shelby:He also did miniatures and did like woodworking and leather. He just was really incredible. Alright. This will be my final yes please of season two, which honestly is a little bit of a relief because coming up with 16 of these is a tall task. Yes, please, to student organizations.
Shelby:I think that what you all have been able to do as part of GeoClub has been so rewarding. It feels like for you all, you know, seeing it from this perspective, it's also been so fun to get to see what you all come up with. You all have done an incredible job this year. For folks that are listening, we have different get togethers over the course of the year, including sort of winter and holiday GeoClub was a really integral part of putting pieces of that together and giving out awards to faculty that were really amazing and some of them were really hilarious. And yeah, you all have just created this really great community for each other, but also through different levels of the department.
Shelby:And I think that we as a department are a lot better for it. And so I want to encourage other folks to, like, build this community too where you can through these student groups. I think this is great that you all been able to do that.
Kaylor:Yes. And I think it would be remiss to leave out that Shelby was crowned as our Screwball.
Shelby:Oh, yes. That is true. Yeah. It was this year's screwball. And in like ten seconds, can you all tell what that is?
Nora:It is a it's been around since, I believe, the sixties. It's our award created for our most silliest, screwiest faculty. And each year, the students will paste voting posters and try to get people to vote. Last year, they did a Google Form that I believe received 20,000 bot responses from somebody coding. So this year we did an analog style and then I was stuck counting all like 2,000 votes that someone printed out for you.
Shelby:Well, I wear the screwball with sincere, genuine pride. I'm so happy to have received that. I don't know if you all have come into my office, but I have bought a rotating mirror platform that I've put it on.
Nora:Oh,
Shelby:good. And so it sits in the corner of my desk and rotates. If I find time maybe this summer, I also wanna build a platform around the mirror with up lighting so that it is given the dramatic impact that it deserves.
Nora:Has Kaj seen it?
Shelby:Oh, as soon as I did it, I sent a video of it to Kaj to let him him see what it looked like. So, yes. Absolutely. But, yeah, I'm I was very excited and proud and and humbled to have received that. Thank you all for coming on.
Shelby:This has been such a great season finale, and I hope that we can do it again sometime.
Nora:Thank you for having us. You've been great. Yeah. Thank us with all of the answers to the questions.
Shelby:Happy to do it. And hopefully, we'll have folks back next season. See you then. Earth on the Rocks is produced by Cari Metz with artwork provided by Connor Leimgruber, with technical recording managed by Kate Crum and Betsy Leija. Funding for this podcast was provided by the National Science Foundation grant, EAR dash 2422824.