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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, where we dive deep into the heart of staff wellbeing within the education sector. In each episode, we bring to the table a diverse array of guests, including experienced teachers and leaders, experts in psychology, health and wellbeing, as well as thought leaders in the sector.
[00:00:16] Whether you're looking for practical tips, inspirational stories, or innovative approaches to wellbeing, our podcast aims to support, inspire and [00:00:25] empower those dedicated to nurturing the next generation. I'm your host, Julie Liddell, and today I'm chatting to Diana Osagie with 26 years experience leading secondary education, including headship in a London secondary school, and subsequently as an executive head.
[00:00:41] Diana works at the cutting edge of leadership development. She's known for her resilience and skills in urban leadership under challenging [00:00:50] circumstances. Diana couples sound strategic vision whilst giving clear operational direction. Diana also led school inspections for nine years with Ted and develop.
[00:01:00] Expertise, scrutinizing operational systems and leadership competency. She founded the Academy of Women's Leadership, specializing in supporting women to grow the leadership cultures of their organizations and to flourish a supremely confident [00:01:15] leaders. Diana has written four books on leadership, focusing on the truth of leading others with humor, love, and strength.
[00:01:22] It was gorgeous to talk to Diana. This conversation was inspirational and honest and all delivered in good humor. In this episode, we discussed courageous leadership, meaning and purpose, wellbeing and responsibility, as well as being introduced to the wellbeing [00:01:40] dog. Why you need to celebrate like Tottenham fans and Marks and Spencer's classics.
[00:01:45] Enjoy
[00:01:50] Diana, or should I say Aunty Di? Um, a. Feel like I'm sitting with educational royalty today. I'm not gonna lie, I've been so excited about this conversation. So thank you so much for joining [00:02:05] us. Most welcome, Diana. You've got a long career, around 26 years of leading in secondary education. Um, you are now a leadership, a coach, a trainer, keynote speaker.
[00:02:17] You are an author. Um, I wonder, can we start with just a little bit of a potted history from where you started to where you are now? Oh my goodness. So science teacher, so my [00:02:30] first love, so science, you're going back into the nineties now. Science teacher head of year. Then I skipped the stage, so I didn't do what we would now call assistant headship.
[00:02:40] In those days it was called senior teacher. So I went straight from head of year to deputy head. Of a secondary school in North London, deputy head for 10 years. Key stage three for five, key stage four for five. Then I became the head [00:02:55] in 2010 and I was head teacher for six years. Left there, set up my company's, um, courage, leadership and so on.
[00:03:03] Um, whilst I was doing that headship and for another four years afterwards, I was a lead inspector for Sted and I did a executive headship through the COVID sort of period. So from early 2020 through till 2022 as well. So [00:03:20] that's the very potted history of, uh, what I was up to from when I left university reading.
[00:03:25] Am I right, St. Diana, um, that maybe is a younger Diana would be quite surprised about where you are now, or, you know, I've had lots of leaders on here who sort of explained that they're sort of accidental leaders or they're accidental teachers. Does that kind of ring true a little bit for you in your journey?
[00:03:43] No, no. [00:03:45] I, I, I knew, I think that's, that came from my parents. I knew that I would do big things, do great things, um, and I would lead. In what field? Wasn't sure I'd, I'd originally wanted to be a doctor then I wanted to be a midwife and all sorts of other things, but actually teaching came along quite early and, you know, that was a, a real start of my career.
[00:04:06] So, but no, there was no accidents at all. It was [00:04:10] a divinely planned I think enough, I felt very much, it was orchestrated and, and each move, although they were big jumps sometimes between what I was doing and what I went on to next, it very much felt like the next step, the next step. It wasn't a, there was no coincidence or accident of birth in that regard.
[00:04:28] Yeah. So the first book of yours that I read was Courageous Leadership, an Hour to Quash The Tummy Flies In Your [00:04:35] Butter. Um, and that kind of is a book about the highs and lows, challenges and triumphs of leading in difficult and challenging settings. Um, so a couple of questions about that. First, why the subtitle?
[00:04:48] And second, can you explain what you mean by courageous leadership? But I absolutely wanna start with Tommy Flies in your, but that came about, I had a, a, a young student who was [00:05:00] apprehensive of going into her exam, and I saw her standing outside the hall and she said, oh, you know, miss, miss? And I said, come on, we, we we're going together.
[00:05:08] She goes, oh, miss. And she said, she said, miss, I've got tummy flies in my butter. And what she obviously meant was, I've got butterflies in my tummy. But English was not her first language. So she, she got it slightly the wrong way round, but I knew exactly what [00:05:25] she meant. And I said to her, I've got tummy flies too.
[00:05:28] You know, we all get scared, but we've gotta go and do these things. Let's go crush this exam. And we held hands according to the exam hall together. So that's where the subtitle comes from, um, courageously This Year. What is that? My goodness, at its heart, it is answering the call on your life no matter [00:05:50] how you feel.
[00:05:52] So if the call on your life that week is about doing something difficult, answer the call. If the call on your life that week is about caring for someone else, answer the call. If the call on your life is about being humble and eating humble pie, 'cause you got it wrong, and you know it's kind of obvious that you got it wrong, then do that.
[00:06:14] It's [00:06:15] about moving through life, not depending on how you feel, but depending and responding to the call, to the, to the, the calling, the vocation that's within all of us. And responding to that no matter what. Looking for the opportunities to respond to that. And those opportunities are always there, but they may be hard to [00:06:40] grasp.
[00:06:40] They may be just out of reach. They may be three steps out of reach, and you've gotta wait your turn or you've gotta go through people you wouldn't normally talk to or you wouldn't normally be connected with. But you've gotta be courageous. There's a vocation I need to answer. There's a call I need to respond to, and I think you might be a support for that.
[00:06:59] I think you might be able to help me with that. I need to go through you. I need to go round you, but I've gotta answer this [00:07:05] call. And so for me, it was certainly the call was answered through teaching, first of all. Did that for four years. PGCE, baby Science teacher. Then I became second in the careers department, which is the department of one sort of thing.
[00:07:23] So it was me and and another lady, penny, and that was my first leadership [00:07:30] recognized post. But obviously you are always leading in your own classroom and all that kind of thing. Answer the call, the next call came quite quickly, ahead of year, you know, and you start to move up in influence or down or wider in influence.
[00:07:46] But each time there was certainly another level for Diana to answer, did I want to become a head teacher? [00:07:55] No. No, that wasn't my, my feeling. I'd seen, I'd heard what happens to head teachers and how difficult it is and how challenging it is and, and so on. I, and I'd seen those parts of headship. 'cause obviously I was watching my head teacher when I was his deputy and I said, nobody in their right mind would want that for themselves.
[00:08:16] It doesn't, it doesn't make sense to put yourself in the lion's den [00:08:20] until the call became just overwhelming in my ears, in my heart, in my life. And now I'm having to try and escape the call. I'm trying to have to navigate round what I should be doing. So I've, I'm made up all sorts of things. Oh, I wanna be a key stage three consultant.
[00:08:36] There was no such thing. I don't think there is a such thing, but I made up these titles of grandeur. To satisfy the going up [00:08:45] part, but to get around, going into headship, you know, and then I sat, um, at the feet of head teachers on what was called MP QH plus, and you sat at the feet of head teachers just to ask them questions about the truth of what it is to be a head teacher at the end of that weekend.
[00:09:05] I was absolutely just, yeah, I can do that, that I can do. The [00:09:10] myth of headship, no one can do the loneliness. The you are the guru, it's all on your shoulders. All these phrases that were out there, the buck stops with you. So I became terrified of the buck, this imaginary thing. When I sat with leaders and spoke to 'em about the call in my heart and on my life, and they people who had the [00:09:35] same calling over their life, but they told me, this is how you handle this level of leadership.
[00:09:40] This is how you handle the call. The truth will set you free, sis. That was only the truth. I was going to go, I was going to go, you know, and from then I, I was fine start applying. I couldn't do this. I knew I can't do it alone. So courageous ship is not about going big, going home and [00:10:00] going alone. No, you need to build a tribe.
[00:10:04] You need to build your alliances. You need to be intentional about building the support for the level where you're going to operate. But it is about doing that intentionally and going, not just building support and having great networks, but never actually rising up to the call on your life. Because for me, in education, young people's [00:10:25] lives.
[00:10:26] Rely on me, on you, on others answering the call. So there's a, there's a a, a purpose and a reason outside of myself for answering this call. That's why I do it. That's why I keep doing it. That's why I hope to influence others to do it, because we hold the cradle of society in our hands. These are [00:10:50] young people.
[00:10:51] That's why I encourage those who are in early years, don't you dare give up because, you know, we start with you and if you give up, they get to me at secondary and we've lost time. We've lost gain time, we've lost the, we've lost the, the charts to put in the framework and the strategies that will help them to grow into citizens.
[00:11:13] When you think about the call in those [00:11:15] terms, it's something you cannot avoid. I don't wanna go to my grave and take my potential with me. I need the potential to be spent in the earth and to literally go out and accomplish what it's supposed to do. That's courageous leadership. I love that. It's like, you know what I'm hearing there?
[00:11:36] It is kind of around that connecting with you why, and that really [00:11:40] sort of importance around reminding yourself of meaning and purpose. I think particularly maybe when time so difficult. Yes. Yes, absolutely. And you don't need to be courageous if your context is cozy. You don't need to be courageous. If your context is comfortable, then there's no need for courage is there?
[00:11:59] You just, you just perform, get paid, perform, get paid. But if there is more to you than [00:12:05] cozy and comfortable, then you might need to develop a courageous muscle and courageousness it. It needs to be practiced. It's not something you do once, it's not a her effort once a week or once a year. It's a consistent mindset that.
[00:12:20] Yeah, I don't feel like it, but I can get up today. I don't feel like it, but I'm gonna go to the gym tonight. I don't want to, who, who wants, I'll stay at home and watch strictly come dancing. [00:12:30] But no, I'm, I'm going to read 10 pages of a book when actually I just wanna sit here and watch Game of Thrones. I'm having the courage to choose the better choice.
[00:12:40] It's a lifestyle, you get used to it, but it is a lifestyle. Yeah, and certainly when I read that book, kind of what came across was it's, it's kind of about being brave while still kind of feeling the fear. At the same [00:12:55] time. You might be having those conflicting feelings, but you kind of working on those behaviors, you work on the behaviors.
[00:13:02] And as a sentence in the book, 'cause I have these seven statements and one of them is I will always feel fear. But I will limit the influence that fear has on my actions and on my thoughts and on my speech. You have to be intentional about that emotional fear. [00:13:20] It is human to feel it, but it's your choice as to what it's allowed to do in your life.
[00:13:26] And when you get intentional about, okay, fear, I recognize your presence. You are here. I, I, I can feel my heart beating. My stomach is flipping. I'm not sure of my next move. I recognize your presence, but I limit your power. So [00:13:45] I recognize your presence. I need to go and talk to my coach. I recognize your presence.
[00:13:49] I need to go and talk to a veteran of leadership or to a veteran of, of the field. I cognize your presence. So I need to slow down so I don't make a mistake by mistake. If I'm gonna make a mistake at, let me, at least let me have planned my route. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But let me not just go into and make an accidental.
[00:14:07] You know, implosion or catastrophe. [00:14:10] So I limit, and again, you practice this, it is a practice. I limit the power, I allow fear to have over me. I'm very intentional. I hear it in my mind. I can hear it in my, in my voice, you know, in my ears. I can feel it in my heart, but I, I limit what I allow it to do. I suppose that practice starts with that self-awareness, doesn't it?
[00:14:32] That ability to listen, [00:14:35] because I think we are all very good at tuning out from those feelings, so we distract or we kind of, you know, squash down. But, you know, I think what you are saying there is that you have to kind of listen to it first and then be able to distance yourself to be able to move away from it.
[00:14:53] Yeah. I mean, I, I often teach a thing about the, there's a gap between what is true and what is truth. [00:15:00] The, the two things are not the same. And in that gap is fear. And all, and solutions and all sorts of things. But what is true, what is true is I'm in a challenging situation. It is true. What is true is I am scared.
[00:15:16] I acknowledge that it is true. These things are true. I'm not talking about positive speaking and making them go away. If it's true, I'm absolutely petrified of going [00:15:25] to that meeting. I dunno how to handle this situation. These things are true. But what is truth? What is truth is that I know how to do hard things.
[00:15:37] That is truth. That doesn't change because the situation that is always constant, I know how to navigate when I'm unsure, I know to get advice [00:15:50] and support when I'm in a land of uncertainty, these things remain as truth no matter what is true in front of my eyes. You know, I know no matter what, no matter how bad it gets at work or in leadership, I am not going to die because of this situation.
[00:16:08] That is the truth. Nobody dies because they have a difficult meeting. [00:16:15] You know, you, you don't, oh, I could've had the ground swallow me up. Yeah, but it doesn't do that. Does it? Really? You know, you, you, you can't die from embarrassment. It can feel intense, but no matter what, let's get it into perspective here.
[00:16:31] I am gonna come out of that meeting alive. So what's important? What, what really matters is still gonna be truth. You know, I'm gonna be [00:16:40] alive at the end of the governor's meeting. Okay? It's gonna be difficult, but I'm gonna be alive, you know, so let's get it in perspective here, right? But what do I need to do to mitigate this anxiety that I'm feeling, or, you know what?
[00:16:55] It's discomfort. Life has discomfort in it. It's uncomfortable. Get used to that. I, I feel anxious. Okay. You don't need [00:17:05] diagnosis. You feel anxious. That's all right. Humans have a whole, you know, rainbow of emotion and you can't stay in the silver end. There's the, the difficult end and there's got anxiety and discomfort and I'm cold, I'm hungry.
[00:17:22] There's, there's, you've gotta, you know, if you're gonna be human, you're gonna experience all of them. You know, you don't have to medicate to get rid of just the I I feel a [00:17:30] bit discomfort. Yeah. Sit with it. You'll be all right. Diana. I feel like what you're talking about here in any other guys is mindfulness.
[00:17:37] Like, I'm a huge fan of mindfulness. I dunno whether you'd use that term. Um, but maybe it's what we need is, uh, your next book is Diana's Guide to, um, Diana's version of mindfulness, which is about letting those emotions in, sitting them, but not getting swallowed by them. [00:17:55] I, I don't use the term and I think it's my aversion to things that are fluffy and I'm sure it's got a fluffy thing, but what people say to me, we're gonna do, we're gonna do mindfulness.
[00:18:06] I imagine, you know, you have to sit there, you know, and hold a lemon and, and our FFA being, and, you know, and get in touch with your inner meercat. I, I can't be doing any of that, you [00:18:20] know, I'm sure, I'm sure it's not that, but that's what I conjure up when I think of the term. And I saw, um, these mindfulness coloring books, I'm like, really?
[00:18:31] So I've got the situation at work, the unions are going crazy. My staff are up in arms and you want me to do some coloring in really? You know, so for me it doesn't, doesn't quite work. I'm sure it's lovely and [00:18:45] useful to others, but I can't imagine myself feeling calm and peaceful 'cause I've colored in pictures.
[00:18:52] But I can see the Diana, the Diana, the Courageous Leadership Guide to Mindfulness. I'm laughing because I'm, I know what I'm gonna say in it and it's not gonna be very mindful. That's a I'm gonna, [00:19:10] I'm gonna write that book. I like that one. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like you need to, 'cause actually at it's very core is exactly what you are saying.
[00:19:19] It is that ability to feel your range of emotions, ability to be self-aware that you are feeling them would ability to choose different, and that's like at the core. So I think there's definitely a book there. You can put your own spin on it, [00:19:35] um, be your bestseller. Um, but kind of going back to that sort of courageous leadership, and I know that one of the things you talk about in the book is a part of that courage, um, is about leaders showing.
[00:19:49] Vulnerability. And I think maybe the worry for some leaders is that in doing so, they're gonna undermine their authority or that it's a weakness. [00:20:00] What's your thoughts around that? There was certainly a place for vulnerability, but vulnerability with some intellect. You don't lay out every mistake you've ever made because you wanna be transparent.
[00:20:14] But I do lay out, I, I do lay out my principles. These things, these situations make me feel uncomfortable, [00:20:25] sad, reflective, remorseful. I will, my team will know what it is that hurts Diana's heart because I'm not a, I'm not a robot. I'm, I'm not a, I'm not a, you know, I'm not, I'm, I'm not an AI machine. I'm, I'm Diana and I'm human.
[00:20:40] I'm human first leader. Second, I remember the importance of love and family and grace and compassion. So I, if that's my stance in my courageousness, [00:20:50] you will know because of the way I, I just live and lead. I don't, I don't lead separate to living, but I don't lay out my vulnerabilities without being mindful that you, that some people have nefarious intent and that's just, you know, that's human nature, right?
[00:21:12] They will use your truth, your [00:21:15] vulnerability, to try and get one over on you to try and get one up on you. And I've, I've had, I've experienced that and I have said aloud, maybe it's not a great leadership style. I don't do this one, but I have said aloud because I've shown you love. Don't take that for weakness because I've shown you compassion and grace.
[00:21:37] Don't take that for me. Being weak or [00:21:40] shy or not competent. Don't mistake my grace for incompetence. You know, and the member of stuff who I was talking to was like, you know, taken aback. But, um, I had to explain grace is where you get favor, which you didn't deserve, but you get grace. Anyway, I've given you grace, but don't mistake that for me, not knowing [00:22:05] the level of what you've done or the, the, the, the poor performance that you've brought.
[00:22:10] But I will not hold that against you when you need support, when you need love. So I'm not gonna say, no, you failed performance management. Therefore no, you cannot go and, you know, and have a day off to put your 5-year-old into nursery for the first time. That makes sense. I'll always show you grace and compassion, but don't mistake that for we, I will still hold you to account the day you [00:22:30] get back.
[00:22:31] I don't, so don't mistake my love for inaction or for a lack of leadership awareness, then, then you'll be making a mistake. But I will, I will give you my vulnerability. Because we are human and because we are in a matrix of relationships and that's my core leadership strength. I know how to build [00:22:55] and nurture relationships.
[00:22:57] This is what leaders are supposed to be good at. And in relationships you need love and fairness and forgiveness and, and grace and compassion. Because a relationship happens at work doesn't mean those things. Those things are not needed. So if we were at home and you are a member of my family of, or you, you came around my house for a Christmas dinner or whatever, [00:23:20] you'd get all of that 'cause we were at home.
[00:23:22] 'cause we're at work. I don't deny that to you. It's still a relationship, but it might come in a different guise. You know, the way I love my family's not gonna be the way I love the head of mass. You know? For sure. For sure. You know, so it might, you know, my sister, she needs a kidney, have one of mine head of math needs a kidney.
[00:23:43] Nah, I ain't [00:23:45] gonna apple. You get me. So, but I will, I will always be human first. Lead a second always. But don't mistake that for weakness. No, we'll have a problem and uh, you know, interestingly, they are the two quotes I pulled out of the book. It's been two of my favorites. I'm human first and leader second, and then the second one, lead with love, [00:24:10] compassion, and Grace.
[00:24:11] I thought they were just beautiful words and I think, you know, there is an, an element to some eye rolling a little bit like around mindfulness if, if you don't understand what the premise is, that you've just kind of so beautifully explained that you can lead with those things whilst still being authentic and, and have that knowledge and, and understanding of the situation as it is without kind of [00:24:35] dressing it up.
[00:24:35] So, yeah, lovely. You also talk about the emotional load of leadership and maybe we've already kind of covered this, but I think, you know, often when I'm working with staffing schools, anybody working in the schools, but particularly leaders, leaders, some days it's just relentless, that emotional Lord holding space for students, for staff, for parents, and pulls on your emotional strength.
[00:24:57] Any thoughts around how leaders can [00:25:00] build this strength? I think you need to have great clarity in what you are for. So if I go back to the pandemic, and I was coaching heads, I mean, I mean the pandemic was just such a, such a unique worldwide situation. Let's pray. We never have anything like that again.
[00:25:19] But it, it was so unique that some of the heads I was coaching lost [00:25:25] what they were for and became all things to everybody, you know? And I remember one situation where the head teacher, he, he missed his coaching session. It was an online coach session. He, he, he came in, he was late, you know, and I'm sat in the zoom room waiting like, oh, I'm so sorry.
[00:25:40] I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I've just finished deliveries. What do you mean? Well, I was, I was delivering the food parcels to the families around on the, um, on the estate. [00:25:50] And I'm like, what? And he had loaded up in his Volvo, so I don't know who, whomever had dropped the food off at school for school. Well the head to put it in his car and then start dropping it off around to the different families.
[00:26:08] I just as a, my friend. Okay. Put COVID aside for a second. [00:26:15] What is your role? You are the head teacher of this school. What are you for? He stopped. Yeah. Let, let's, let's just, let's unpick this. What is the head teacher for lots of ways of phrase it, but let's phrase it simply, you are there to create the culture and the structure for a phenomenal school for local children to attend.[00:26:40]
[00:26:40] Yeah. Okay. That's what you are for. COVID has come, so now everything's gotta go online. Whatever, whatever. Have what is what you are for changed? No. It's not changed. That's what you are off for in a different way. Now we're doing it online and so on and so on. But when did your job description become delivery man of the food bank [00:27:05] stuff, because now he was overwhelmed emotionally and physically taking on this pseudo role of delivery, delivering stuff, doing that till eight o'clock at night, coaching with me and then gonna start his headship work.
[00:27:26] I'm like, why did you leave your [00:27:30] purpose to fulfill the purpose of the delivery man? What stops the parents from coming to collect their food parcel or doing? Why have you taken on all this emotional load? I tell you why you are not clear as to what you are for. So you have now easily become [00:27:55] rocked when a new gospel presents itself as a new truth.
[00:28:00] The head teacher now, well, you are there to support the whole community. You are now the delivery man. You are the social worker. You are the crche person. You are. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Stop. Just stop. If you don't deliver those foods, what will happen? Oh, I suppose they'll come and collect it from the playground.
[00:28:19] So, [00:28:20] so you know, will the world fall down because you didn't answer the email straight away? Will the world fall down? Because you didn't go to every single borough meeting. You sent a deputy twice and they said, SBM wants a no. Will the world fall down if, just think about what would be the worst case scenario and work back from there.[00:28:45]
[00:28:45] We take on as leaders, mantles and purpose. That is not ours because we're the head, because we're the deputy, because we have the, the title that is elevated. We pick up the emotion that doesn't belong to us and we wear it and it crushes nobody thanks you for wearing their [00:29:10] crown. Does that make sense? So take off other people's crowns, put it back on their heads, wear your crown and do what you are for and do that well.
[00:29:22] But we pick up these mantles and robes and crowns that belong to others. They walk free. Well, I told the head about that so that, you know that's okay then. [00:29:35] Well, I sent her the memo, the safeguarding incident. I, I said I, I put it on C poms. I left it so you know. And we pick it up and we put on other people's robes and their mantles and their crayons and the, it crushes us and no one says, thank you for wearing my responsibility.
[00:29:57] No one ever says [00:30:00] that. So don't do it. Train people to handle and hold their responsibility rather than you handling and holding it. Because then of course, the danger of carrying that emotional load, both mentally, physically, cognitively, you know, and that capacity, and I, and I think you're so right, you know, it can then leak out [00:30:25] of us and, and actually that is about having that discipline around that boundaried ability to say, this is not mine to hold.
[00:30:33] I think that is really important advice. So. As a leader then, and I, I'm thinking kind of a little bit broad then around staff wellbeing and maybe sort of the questions are, whose responsibility is it? Just thinking about what you said there about the role of leadership, whose [00:30:50] responsibility is staff wellbeing and, and kind of what does that, what might that look like in practice?
[00:30:55] So the obvious answer is not the wellbeing committee and my central take and I I do wellbeing very differently, right? Very differently. My central take is this, you cannot abdicate [00:31:15] the responsibility of your wellbeing to your spouse, to your friend, to your partner, and to your employer. You cannot, the responsibility of wellbeing for yourself is yours.
[00:31:30] Always. Always. The only time you can abdicate it is when you are three years old. I mean, I've got a niece who's seven, [00:31:40] she now has to take a little bit of responsibility for her wellbeing. She brushes her own teeth. I don't brush her teeth for her or help her. It's just her own hair when she's three months.
[00:31:49] Yes, we, we take full responsibility for your wellbeing when you're little and then we begin to give you back your responsibility. And then when you are 18, the law says you're now an adult. Might hold, might help you a little bit more. You know? 'cause we all know that, [00:32:05] you know, 20 year olds are still a bit silly, right?
[00:32:08] Oh, I've got a 20-year-old, you're not 20 anymore, you're 45. Get a grip, you know, get, get a grip enough, your, your discomfort doesn't become a whole issue for the whole department. No, no, no, no. See, I, I do, well, I do wellbeing very differently and I, I describe it as the [00:32:30] wellbeing dog. So everyone has a dog imaginary.
[00:32:35] Wherever you go, you take the dog with you. It's the wellbeing dog. It's always with you. If you think about a dog, right? If you own a real dog, it is your responsibility to wash the dog, cut the dog's toenails, comb the dog's head. Whatever you do to dogs, [00:32:55] right? Take it to doggy hospital. Get it doggy checked out.
[00:32:59] Give it shots and food, and it's your responsibility. It's your dog. You can't say, this is my dog. Go to work. Give your employer your chihuahua. You look after my dog. No, it's your dog. Take your dog outta my office and go look after your own. I've got my own dog for the employer. The employer's not supposed to shoot your [00:33:20] dog.
[00:33:20] You know, goes around the staff room shooting people's dogs. It's not supposed to lay out poison and traps for the dog. The employer's supposed to create an environment where your dog can thrive. But now, and again, you know, dogs get dirty. Work can be uncomfortable now and again, the dog cannot go out to play when it wants to [00:33:45] Work can be uncomfortable now and again, the dog's gotta sit still.
[00:33:48] Whatever it's nails trimmed work can be uncomfortable, but the general culture of the workplace is one where the dog can thrive, but it's always your dog, your wellbeing. Me having a wellbeing committee,
[00:34:08] nice coffee in the staff [00:34:10] room, a sweetie in your pigeon when it on your birthday, all of that is just being human. That's not wellbeing, that's just being relationship building. Human leadership. True wellbeing is when you realize, you know what, I've knackered my dog. My dog is absolutely shattered, gets no sleep, gets no water, [00:34:35] gets no exercise, gets no fun.
[00:34:37] I've stressed the dog out. The dog's in a poor relationship with other dogs, right? It's married to a dog he doesn't like. Do you know what I mean? This is all your responsibility, but it plays out in your workplace how you feel, what you do to your wellbeing. You come to work with a knackered dog. You're not watching Game of Thrones [00:35:00] all night and scrolling TikTok till two in the morning gets two hours sleep.
[00:35:05] Then you come say, oh, workplace is toxic. You know, oh, my workload is too much. That might be true, but you've knackered the dog. You broke the wellbeing. The dog's given up on its hopes and dreams. The dog is a [00:35:25] people pleaser. It will say yes to anything. The dog doesn't even know its own limitation. It doesn't know what's good for the, it will eat anything.
[00:35:34] A good dog owner will make sure the dog doesn't eat anything. It eats the food it's given on purpose. You've gotta take care of your own dog. You cannot abdicate that responsibility to somebody else, especially to your employer. [00:35:50] If you've got a a, a, a diagnosis, cancer has come something and you need support with your dog, of course, a good employer will support and signpost and again, create conditions for your dog to begin to thrive once again.
[00:36:10] But it is not my responsibility. It is not my [00:36:15] responsibility to take care. Your wellbeing. I support you as you take care of your wellbeing, you know? But because you're a bit discomforted, because things are a bit, you know, oh, it's a bit working a bit late night. It's a bit tricky. A bit testy. It doesn't mean that the wellbeing in this workplace is [00:36:40] broken.
[00:36:40] No. It means that there are real people here doing real work. We have become so anesthetized to the idea of being just a bit uncomfortable. I can't possibly do that. It's bad for my wellbeing. Well, that is your job. So less of a conversation then? Are you [00:37:05] saying that you can't, I can't do that. I've gotta work from home.
[00:37:08] Okay. Well the chi, the children are in that classroom, right? So what do you wanna do here? Do you wanna all come home with you? Because that's where they're at. And I, I, I do wellbeing very differently. I will love you, I will help you to thrive. But remember why we are here. [00:37:30] Young people's lives, their citizenship, their wholeness is in our hands.
[00:37:36] You know what? We've got parents even tonight, okay, there's coffee on, there's pizza there. Tomorrow morning, we've got a late start. But come on, there's a reason why we are here. Let's get it done. You know, so I, I, I, I see [00:37:55] wellbeing for me is not about, you know, having a nice bath, incented water, burning candles, all of that is hygiene.
[00:38:05] That is not wellbeing. You're supposed to bath. If you wanna burn, smelly fire, go for it. None of that's got anything to do with wellbeing. Wellbeing is when your soul sits at rest. When you are at peace with who you are, [00:38:20] what you do, and why you do it, that when you have that, I can handle anything when I'm at peace and I'm at peace when I know my purpose.
[00:38:32] When I know why and what and where for. And it's a bit uncomfortable today 'cause you know it is raining, we've got a wet play time and all the kids are inside, they're all gonna be nuts. I don't pay it any great attention. That can't [00:38:45] rock me off my wellbeing. My dog is well groomed. Does that make sense?
[00:38:52] Yeah, I love that. And you know, it is aligned with the way that we approach it and you know, obviously, um, our company's called still human and, and it is about that kind of human element. But, but actually staff wellbeing is. An individual's responsibility first and [00:39:10] foremost, nobody, I always say, nobody can put me to bed.
[00:39:11] Nobody can make my tea. You know, nobody can make me go out for a walk. But you know, those things are within my responsibility. But as you say, the organization need to create culture where people can thrive. That's their kind of contribution to wellbeing. So we are absolutely aligned. But I love your analogy of the dog.
[00:39:30] I usually use a race horse, but I, the dog works way better. Yeah. I think if I [00:39:35] Nick that, I will obviously attribute it to you. 'cause I just think that's such a great analogy. I think it kind of ties in this idea of creating this culture. I heard you, I think it was on a video clip and it was a football analogy you said Can't remember whether it's it Tottenham or US, or maybe it was both.
[00:39:52] And you say, you know, they nearly score and 40,000 fans cheer and I think you said, but when [00:40:00] school staff get to the end of the year, they get some roasted meat and Cole Law. Now as a vegetarian, I remember you also said that I think the vegetarians get a carrot, but like carrots. Yeah, a carrot. So I'm up for the carrot roasted meat and clothes lot, and I laughed out loud because it's painfully true.
[00:40:18] That is what happens. Why, you know, why should we be celebrating more? How could we do it better? Again, [00:40:25] because we are human and in relationship, that doesn't change because we're at work. When you're at home, I mean, I'm married to the, um, my husband is, is lovely. He is not brilliant around the house doing housework.
[00:40:39] It. So he is got two responsibilities. He cleans the cooker stove because he is really good at that and he, he, um, he does the washing. The [00:40:50] washing. He loves the washing machine because it, it's a machine and he is a fell. Yeah. So he likes putting it in washing and he does all that and he'll put it on the washing rack on the, um, drying horse.
[00:40:59] But that's as far as he goes putting it upstairs. No, he is not into that bit. So he is got these two responsibilities. Right. But even when he does those two, two things in the whole house. When he is done them, it's like he's waiting for me to say, well [00:41:15] done. Yeah. Yeah. And I put it, he's human. I've done a good thing, say well done.
[00:41:24] And I do, I I I'll come and say, oh babe, the cooker top is gleaming. And he goes, yeah, yeah, I've got his special. And it, it will go to the, the shop and it'll get ho hob clean or whatever, I dunno what it's called. And he goes, I've got a special one. It's got lemon in it and it's got, it got, it's got a whole [00:41:40] section in the cupboard of all these cleaning things.
[00:41:41] Just, you know, the, the oven, just the top bit right? But a little sugar makes the labor sweeter and you don't wait for the hurt kaan effort. If I wait for him to clean the whole house before I say well done, never gonna happen, never gonna happen. [00:42:05] But as he makes his little consistent efforts. It's not a great big, oh, I'll cook you a meal, take you out shopping.
[00:42:13] It's just a babe. I appreciate, thank you so much. I noticed it and it, it, it makes a difference. I'm grateful. You know, so with, same thing for our staff. If you wait until the results come out, if you wait until, until it's the end of [00:42:30] term and you know, until I still have been, or whatever it might be, whatever the, whatever the KPI has been met.
[00:42:36] If you wait, you miss the opportunity to bring advantage to the organization because people thrive when they feel loved. It's just a human thing. Humans, when humans feel loved, they [00:42:55] throw. If you give a toddler a clap and a well done for putting something in the bin, they, they go and put everything in the bin because they just want that Well done again.
[00:43:04] You know, if you give a teenager a well done for doing X, they will repeat the action. We're human. We can't help it. We respond to positive reinforcement. Why would you do that once a year at the end of term, or [00:43:20] twice a year? Why? It doesn't make sense. So if you think about people, leadership is easier. Now.
[00:43:27] You've, to them, hot spur champions of Europe at the time of this recording, but have to them hot spur. When we score a goal, 40,000 people celebrate for 30 seconds. Don't tell me you can't find a [00:43:45] way of celebrating with your staff as they score goals. If I, if we can get 40,000 people to cheer at the same time because one fell, has kicked a ball.
[00:44:01] We can get a hundred staff, 10 staff to celebrate a goal. One, you've gotta know [00:44:10] when the goals are going in. They don't. They don't just going in at the end determine when the results come out. They go in daily, weekly, just getting seven J to sit still, right? For a whole hour for a new teacher. That's a goal.
[00:44:25] That's a goal. Do you know when your organization is scoring goals? Do you know when your people are scoring [00:44:35] goals on your behalf? On your behalf? It's your team. You know Daniel Levy, the chairman of Hot of Tottenham, Harry Cas on the field. But Daniel Levy gets the money, you know, because we get into the Champions League and 130 million comes into the account when we get into the Champions League.
[00:44:53] So he'd scored the goal, but he gets the glory. Come on now, Mrs. You know, [00:45:00] Mrs. Valier, she's, she's teaching French up there in Na Taric to nine F who can't stand French. But each, you know, each week she's getting through this, the syllabus, the curriculum, and they're there and they're learning. And they can say, you know, Jean Mapel, whatever, whatever.
[00:45:16] She's scoring goals for you, but you only reward her at the end of the year when the results come out. No, that's not fair. [00:45:25] No, that's, that's, that's not a relationship that I wanna be a part of. And you reward her with roasted meat and coleslaw on a dusty barbecue that Terry, the caretakers dragged out from under the stairs in the hall, you know?
[00:45:43] And the chicken's not even done properly. Nah, nah, nah, nah. And anyone who's gluten-free, well God [00:45:50] help you. Do you know what I mean? Bring your own gluten-free and vegetarian free. Vegetarian, vegan. Don't eat mushrooms. You're gonna starve. Bring your own food. We do roasted meat, baps and coleslaw. We can do better education.
[00:46:09] We can do better. I completely agree. Um, [00:46:15] and I think, you know, in teachers and, and classrooms, you know, at that top 26 years, you know, as teachers managing and leading our teams in our classrooms, we automatically do it. You celebrate the newly you, you know, you champion, you encourage, but it's, it's about expanding that out and recognizing that as humans, our staff need that as well.
[00:46:37] And, and that genuine feedback because we [00:46:40] don't say, what do we do in schools? What went well even better if there's nothing more discouraging. Then say, you are really good. But that went really well. But leave the, but there's a time for feedback that will help them move forward. There's a time for just appreciation of effort.
[00:47:02] That's brilliant. Well done. [00:47:05] End of sentence, not that's brilliant. Yeah, well done. But if you had written it with capital, what does the human brain do? It takes on the negative and that's all it will hear if you're not careful to come on. When is the time to appreciate the goal, how it was scored, and could he have done a back flip and could it?[00:47:30]
[00:47:30] That's on the training field today. We celebrate. Love that. Diana, you've kind of, or maybe I'll pick this up, maybe it's from some of your social media posts. Um, and this is probably true of maybe as many leaders that you not, haven't necessarily put your own wellbeing first or your own sort of health goals.
[00:47:50] What would that be? Right. And, and if so, what sort of shifted for you? Early in [00:47:55] my headship where I was leader first, human second, where I was still under the myths of you've gotta be the guru, you've gotta be all knowing, all seeing, all powerful. You've gotta be like a mini god that just knows everything is everywhere, all at once.
[00:48:11] And I was trying to be this, this ridiculous mythology of a head teacher. No one had told me to be that way. I just picked up, this is what head [00:48:20] teachers are like, this is what they do. Doing that for more than a week, a month, two months, a term is detrimental to you as a person. It shows up, you know, in small ways.
[00:48:37] Put on a little bit of weight. You miss gym one week, two weeks, it's been a [00:48:45] month, you know, so you're losing your fitness, your physical fitness is just beginning to edge off a bit. You're beginning to eat just a bit, a little bit more poorly, you know, 'cause you're not cooking as much. It's a bit more processed food, you know, Turkey, twizzlerss, whatever the equivalent is.
[00:49:01] You know, uh, the Waitrose equivalent of Turkey, Twizzlers, it's still processed food. It's called a Kiev, isn't it? Or whatever. I dunno. When it [00:49:10] goes in the oven, it's quick. Now. Goes in the air fryer. Air fryer even quicker than you know. And nobody wants a salad on a Friday night, do they? You know, you, you, you want a, a takeaway and, but the takeaway a Friday, then you have it again on a Sunday night, then you go again on a Wednesday.
[00:49:27] 'cause you came home late from governor's and you didn't prep the meals. You all just deliver something from the Indian takeaway down the road. And before you [00:49:35] know it, you are five, 6,000 calories a week over. Then it becomes 10,000. But that's easy to do. That's easy to do. That's just an extra two or three, you know, um, kit Kats, you know, and you're getting that extra Starbucks on the way home because you're trying to comfort and soothe yourself, aren't you?
[00:49:53] Do you want cream? Yeah, I want cream. I want sprinkles and an extra shot of caramel. So what was just [00:50:00] a black coffee is now become this great big fluffy latte that's, you know, 500 calories. And you just got that down on the way of, on the way. Oh, I have another Starbucks. Oh, I deserve it. I found such a hard day.
[00:50:14] And then you wake up one morning as I did, you go to Marks and Spencer's because that's the only place you know where you can, where you can really get trousers that fit [00:50:25] because next do those slim trousers, which you can't get your backside into, you know, so you go Marks and Spencer's and you're trying the classics range, and you're like, these are Marks and Spencer's classics, and they're elasticated at the waist and they still don't fit.
[00:50:44] And then you realize that, okay, something's going on here because you get dressed in the dark, but it's [00:50:50] wintertime, so you don't really look at yourself too much, you know, but you're in Marks and they've got these big mirrors with his lights on, and you can see yourself and your manifestation of the decisions that you've been making day after day, not realizing you've sleep, walked, you've sleep, walked into a a, a pit.
[00:51:12] But you made yourself at home in the pit. 'cause your [00:51:15] trousers, you know, you, you just don't do the button up or you wear a looser top so you don't see what you've done to yourself. But, so something happens and you marks and Spencer and the light comes on and you see it and you kinda escape it and it hurts.
[00:51:33] And you start crying in Marks and Spencer's. Croydon. Yeah, that's me. That [00:51:40] was me. My wellbeing, my dog, she was, my dog was now 18 stone size 24 eczema patches, thinning hair. She, she could barely get upstairs without, you know, she'd drive and try and park right at a supermarket [00:52:05] door because she doesn't wanna walk the length of the car park.
[00:52:08] She had found ways to comfort herself while she was hurting herself because she was so overwhelmed by the crown of leadership and by putting on other people's crowns on her shoulder 'cause she wanted to be head teacher, that's, she didn't [00:52:30] realize that the crowns were crushing her and making her make choices that were not good for her.
[00:52:37] And I was making choices about what I ate, what I drank, what I watched, what I listened to, that were not in my best interest. And your choices, just like as all humans, whether you make those choices at work or you make [00:52:55] them at home, your choices have consequences and you will live out those consequences.
[00:53:02] There's no escaping. You will reap what you have sewn. There is no escaping. You sow to the wind, you reap the whirlwind. There is no escaping because you're called head teacher. You don't, you think you've got an escape card? No, no, [00:53:20] no. You may get the grace to reap in private or like what happened to me.
[00:53:28] You've been year 10 assembly. Year seven assembly. And someone says to you, can you take assembly please? Yeah, sure. Someone's dropped out. You, you, you, you fill in. Just read this story. Got a story. Year seven are there, they're all brand new as a starter [00:53:45] term. They're all new hair's, combs, blazer's too big.
[00:53:48] They're all there. In comes the head teacher, they're all, and they're like, come, I'm powerful. And Jason, the AV technician, he starts playing the music that goes with the story. And then you realize, oh my God, that music was what was played at the first dance when I first got married, but now I'm divorced and I went through a [00:54:10] hellish divorce and, and that music, it comes on and my heart starts to swell and my stomach churns and my, my eyes start to water and I, and I can feel the emotion that I've been pushing down because of leadership.
[00:54:25] And I've been busy leading and not gone to the counseling that was booked for me. 'cause I was busy leading. And I, it starts to well up and I'm like, oh God, not [00:54:35] now. Not now. And Jason, I'm going to him like this. He thinks I'm saying play it louder. So he makes it louder and now it's overwhelming and all I can think of and all I can see is that first dance at that wedding and.
[00:54:50] I'm like, what do I do? I start crying and I, I'm, I lean over the lectern and I'm, I'm sobbing and it's caught up with me. The, well, the [00:55:00] humanness has caught me, but I'm in assembly and it's year seven. The tutors, and then they're like, oh. They're like, what's going on year seven? They're brand new. They don't know what to do.
[00:55:12] The head teacher's crying, so they start crying. They think it's supposed, that's what's supposed to happen. Someone finally, 'cause I'm just sobbing. I'm a mess. One of the tutors goes and gets my deputy head. [00:55:25] She comes in, she sees me, she scoops me up and takes me out, puts me in an Uber, sends me home. I'm sobbing all the way up the motorway.
[00:55:36] I'm a, I'm a mess because the, I didn't look after my wellbeing. There was no bathing or candle that's gonna solve this. My heart was still broken, but I pushed it down 'cause I was leading. [00:55:50] And then she goes, she tells me later on, I went back in and said to them, Ms. Sogi hurt her foot. That's why she was crying.
[00:56:01] Glos is over it. Ms. Sogi is a mess. But I come in the next day 'cause I'm the head teacher and she sees it. She says, when you go home, go home. I will run the [00:56:15] school. I don't wanna see you until next week. And for once in Diana's stubborn life, I relent for once and I go home and I cry and I cry and I cry.
[00:56:28] Those tears that I've been bottled up, locked away and labeled. I'm a leader. I don't do that. Two days of crying, [00:56:40] two days, and then it's the weekend. And I'm a Christian. I go to church. I'm crying hard because there doesn't seem to be an answer for this, because this is life, because what is it? I'm human first, a leader.
[00:57:01] Second, I remember the importance of family, love, [00:57:05] compassion, and grace, but I hadn't been compassionate to myself. I hadn't loved myself, and I hadn't been graceful to myself. In years, I've been hard-nosed and courageous, and I've been excellent and I've been dynamic. All the things the job description said when they put out the advert for the head teacher, I was doing all of that, [00:57:30] and I wasn't doing human.
[00:57:34] I was doing human on rote. I wasn't being an intentional human. I was being an automatic human. An intentional leader, those decisions caught up with me and I paid the price, unfortunately, or looking back now, you know what? Fortunately [00:57:55] I paid that price publicly, turned it into a book. Now I teach and, and, and help others navigate around those contexts, those challenging situations where if you're not careful, you will reap and the price you pay won't be the one that you intended to pay.
[00:58:18] It'll be heavy. There'll be interest [00:58:20] on that price. So that is what I'm talking about, courageous leadership. You got divorced and it hurts. Have the courage to deal with the emotion of it. Have the courage to face it. Have the courage to say, I am broken, this hurts, and I dunno how to recover. If I'd said that, then I would've [00:58:45] saved myself all the overeating, trying to soothe myself over drinking, trying to soothe myself.
[00:58:53] Starbucks, I don't drink alcohol, but you know, the, all the angst, trying to put myself right without dealing with a true course. That's courageous leadership. When you, you [00:59:10] lead, you lead your life from a place of truth. Sometimes we're not going to face our authentic self, my authentic self. She's messy.
[00:59:18] She's a messy girl, but hey, she's who she is. Thank you, Diane. I love that, honestly. Um, and you know, that vulnerability that you've just shown in sharing that, that authenticity, I'm sure everybody will kind of really appreciate listening to. [00:59:35] 'cause it's exactly kind of what you said there, that lack of self-compassion, which was at the heart of it.
[00:59:40] Yeah. That lack of feeling. Like, you know, you needed to look after yourself, you deserve to look after yourself, you, you know, and, and extending yourself that you know, good grace and, and love and you know, I'm so pleased that that's not where you are now and that you're in that different space. Diana, it's just been [01:00:00] gorgeous.
[01:00:00] We always finish with a few words of wisdom, although I feel like all you've done is given us words of wisdom all the way through. Um, but if you were to offer our listeners a suggestion of one kind thing that they could do for themselves today, what would it be? Oh, can I give them two? One, a physical one.
[01:00:21] Drink water. [01:00:25] Your body will thank you for it. Not a herculean effort. You drink a gallon of water on a weekend, just sip through three bottles of water a day. By the end of the week, your from the, literally from the inside out, you have shown your body a great kindness. [01:00:50] Two, be intentional and find your tribe.
[01:00:58] Refuse to do leadership, a life alone. You don't have to be married. You can choose to be single, but you don't have to be alone in your life. We are not designed as creatures like that. We are designed as social [01:01:15] relationship based beings. That's just who we are. Don't do leadership on your own. That's suicidal, that's dangerous for you and for your organization.
[01:01:27] You need a coach. You need veterans that you can call on. You need peers that you can talk to. They don't have to be in your organization, but find your [01:01:40] tribe. Veterans of leadership. We are here. We will answer the phone, we'll answer you on LinkedIn or whatever. Contact and join forums and groups where you can speak your truth.
[01:01:53] You can speak your silliness. You can ask your Muppet question without shade or judgment, and you can provide support for someone else asking their [01:02:05] Muppet question. Be intentional and find your tribe. Build your alliances. Don't do leadership alone. That's a dangerous endeavor. You are lucky to step into arrogance if you do that.
[01:02:19] Nobody wants an arrogant leader. Diana, thank you. I think this has been equal parts. I inspire, inspiring, uplifting, um, [01:02:30] authentic and honest, and, um, just a sort of conversation I think we all need. So thank you. Most welcome.