PJ and Dr. Robert Pippin discuss how art can uniquely understand significant truths.
Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.
[pj_wehry]: oh and welcome to chasing leviathan i'm
here with dr robert pippin robert pippin is
[pj_wehry]: distinguished service professor at the university of
chicago and we're
[robert_pippin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: talking about his book philosophy by other
men
[robert_pippin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: dr pippin wonderful
[robert_pippin]: my
[pj_wehry]: to have you here today
[robert_pippin]: thank you thank you for having me
[pj_wehry]: uh so just before we get into
the book which for those on youtube you
[pj_wehry]: can see it there we'll have a
link down below
[robert_pippin]: a
[pj_wehry]: tell me a little bit about your
journey how did you get into philosophy and
[pj_wehry]: what led you i know you've ritten
several books that's kind of apparent
[robert_pippin]: ah
[pj_wehry]: at the beginning like this has been
a lifelong project for you why this project
[pj_wehry]: why
[robert_pippin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: philosophy r and that intersection
[robert_pippin]: well i started out in college as
an english major quite seriously interested in literature
[robert_pippin]: especially international literature um and i was
preparing i thought i was going to be
[robert_pippin]: a writer short story novel writer poet
but by my senior or in college i
[robert_pippin]: had taken a lot of philosophy courses
and you know i sort of had to
[robert_pippin]: face the fact that while i was
okay i wasn't good enough to be
[pj_wehry]: oh
[robert_pippin]: a serious professional writer
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: so you know rather than spend ten
years waiting on tables in new york and
[robert_pippin]: staying up late writing stories that would
get rejected um i had
[pj_wehry]: ah
[robert_pippin]: formed especially in the end of my
junior year a deep attachment to philosophy especially
[robert_pippin]: the history of philosophy greek and german
philosophy in particular
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: at the very last minute in sort
of october my senior year i applied to
[pj_wehry]: ye
[robert_pippin]: graduate school and i had a teacher
i respected great deal who i said i
[robert_pippin]: wanted to study basically the history of
philosophy and especially the european tradition m content
[robert_pippin]: german idealism post kantian post idealist philosophy
in europe like nice and hidiger and at
[robert_pippin]: that time this was fifty years ago
at that time american philosophy departments were not
[robert_pippin]: terribly interested in either the history philosophy
or european philosophy so i went to kind
[robert_pippin]: of second to your graduate program by
the standards of the profession um at penn
[robert_pippin]: state working there with a man named
stanley rose and i mean i kept a
[robert_pippin]: very strong interest in literature in the
intersection between literature and philosophy but you know
[robert_pippin]: once you once you go to graduate
choo and you get a credential and you
[robert_pippin]: get a job and you have to
teach your specialty i wasn't able to pursue
[robert_pippin]: what i thought i was various ways
of osphyand reflective high culture literature intersecting with
[robert_pippin]: each other but in nineteen ninety two
i was teaching then at the university of
[robert_pippin]: california in san diego and in nineteen
ninety two i got an offer from the
[robert_pippin]: committee on social thought at the university
of chicago which is your your listeners can
[robert_pippin]: sort of google it and see what
kind of a program it is it's a
[robert_pippin]: ph d granting program that is explicitly
inter disciplinary
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: we don't have the usual kind of
program of a graduate school students come and
[robert_pippin]: take whatever courses they want they don't
have to take a series of field requirements
[robert_pippin]: or something like that and they're encouraged
to right patients that don't fit into the
[robert_pippin]: standard academic departments to the intersection between
greek literature and greek philosophy you are the
[robert_pippin]: history of stoicism and its relevant to
cant or the bearing of of philosophy on
[robert_pippin]: literature for example um so that gave
me kind of permission to teach and write
[robert_pippin]: about whatever i wanted to which was
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: like the mount olympus of philosophy i
mean i sort of arrived in academic heaven
[robert_pippin]: no
[pj_wehry]: uh
[robert_pippin]: no assigned courses
[pj_wehry]: h
[robert_pippin]: no repetitive courses i could teach something
different each year and it was a collection
[robert_pippin]: of especially when i first came there
were people like sal bellow and less call
[robert_pippin]: co ki and france fur and all
kinds of very luminous incredibly famous people and
[robert_pippin]: i was just tremendously stimulated to start
doing what i want so the first for
[robert_pippin]: into this was a book in two
thousand called henry james in modern moral life
[robert_pippin]: which was an attempt to show how
james in his novels was raising questions about
[robert_pippin]: the status of moral life in a
late modern world in which the conventional assumptions
[robert_pippin]: about the basis of morality had collapsed
there wasn't a consensus of so i tried
[robert_pippin]: to explore how the novels could show
us a way to think about it moral
[robert_pippin]: life in a way that contemporary philosophy
wasn't doing i continued to write about german
[robert_pippin]: philosophy wrote a lot of books about
con hagel a german german idealism in general
[robert_pippin]: but i started drifting more and more
towards this question of how to do philosophy
[robert_pippin]: you know without without conforming to the
convention standards of the discipline since i didn't
[robert_pippin]: have to i had permission
[pj_wehry]: ah
[robert_pippin]: not to really the most fortunate event
in my life was coming here to chicago
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: being able to do that so a
little later on i got invited to give
[robert_pippin]: a series of lectures called castle lectures
at you know i could have done standard
[robert_pippin]: a standard kind of account of hegel's
olitical thought for example but you know for
[robert_pippin]: for a general audience which is what
this was hegel is not a very friendly
[robert_pippin]: topic i mean is extremely difficult the
language is difficult and so forth so i
[robert_pippin]: decided really to again given permission to
do these sorts of things by the committee
[robert_pippin]: i decided to write a book on
hollywood westerns and the way in which hollywood
[robert_pippin]: westerns offered a mode of reflection about
things like legal authority the transition from a
[robert_pippin]: pre legal to a legal system emergence
of is what a lot of great westerns
[robert_pippin]: are about
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: bushi civilization in a hostile environment railroads
banks schools family security how does the ideal
[robert_pippin]: of that kind of life get a
grip in a situation of complete lawlessness what
[robert_pippin]: what prompts people to give up that
situation and cultivate the virtues necessary not not
[robert_pippin]: for a kind of honor society which
was what the pre legal situation of the
[robert_pippin]: of the west was in in the
post civil war era but but the virtues
[robert_pippin]: necessary for a comfortable bougeite life so
forth anyway i thought they would say no
[robert_pippin]: we don't want that we we want
to
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: donor of the series is going to
be there and we want to but they
[pj_wehry]: uh
[robert_pippin]: did
[pj_wehry]: uh eh
[robert_pippin]: they didn't they just they just said
okay fine if you want to write you
[robert_pippin]: know so the series is published as
a book
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: so i did i did these lectures
at yale on hollywood western in then i
[robert_pippin]: began to think well this is really
fun
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: this this allows one to illuminate um
issues in philosophy that we can't get a
[robert_pippin]: grip on especially issues that i called
political psychology that is to say what is
[robert_pippin]: necessary in the world
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: or a certain kind of claim of
normative authority to get a grip on people
[robert_pippin]: does that happen it doesn't happen political
life philosophers tend to have the illusion that
[robert_pippin]: reason people obey the state because there's
a very good argument for why they should
[robert_pippin]: nobody
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: experience is allegiance to a regime having
been
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: convinced of an argument suitable for an
academic philosophy journal so actually the way in
[robert_pippin]: which normative life moral life political life
[pj_wehry]: oh
[robert_pippin]: the way in which it works you
know somewhat surprisingly is not really accessible to
[robert_pippin]: conventional discursive analysis that is the
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: read and butter of philosophy so i
thought well this this might be true of
[robert_pippin]: a variety of things i got another
series electro series invitation from the university of
[robert_pippin]: virginia and i was at that time
working in higgeleon problem of agency and responsibility
[robert_pippin]: i mean how do we know what
differentiates an action that i perform from a
[robert_pippin]: mere event that happens to me so
i thought well you know that's what really
[robert_pippin]: the classic nineteen forty film noir is
all about so i said you know would
[robert_pippin]: you would you let me give lectures
on
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: agency and fate you know the experience
of not being able to pick one's own
[robert_pippin]: future feeling in a way consigned to
a future so they the world of let
[robert_pippin]: me know if i'm just running on
too much or if you'd
[pj_wehry]: no
[robert_pippin]: like
[pj_wehry]: the only thing i want to say
is i've had a lot of people on
[pj_wehry]: here talk about how exciting philosophy is
and how important it is and how inspiring
[pj_wehry]: it is you might be the first
person who like the word
[robert_pippin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: fun keeps coming up and i love
it i love that your journey is like
[pj_wehry]: philosophy as fun also
[robert_pippin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: a huge fan of you know i
enjoy westerns especially like near i grew up
[pj_wehry]: with a lot of old time radio
detectives
[robert_pippin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: i read a lot of raymond chandler
and so this is a lot of fun
[pj_wehry]: it's really
[robert_pippin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: it's over fun approach and i'm enjoying
this
[robert_pippin]: actually very amusing there was a very
famous literary scholar in virginia after the first
[robert_pippin]: lecture i was on jack tenors film
out of the past first question i got
[robert_pippin]: was what are you doing
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: what is this
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: is not philosophy this is not film
studies this is not literally annalise what are
[robert_pippin]: you doing so
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: you know i tried to give an
answer
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: and you know
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: continued and the university of virginia also
publishes these lectures as a book so then
[robert_pippin]: i had a book come out on
show more so then you know i got
[robert_pippin]: increasingly more interest still writing about philosophy
but i got particularly more interested in writing
[robert_pippin]: about philosophy and film so i wrote
a book on hitchcock called a philosophical hitchcock
[robert_pippin]: i wrote a book i put together
a collection of a lot of essays i
[robert_pippin]: had written on film called filmed thought
cinema has reflective
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: form and then i got really interested
in melodrama an american melodrama and way in
[robert_pippin]: which i thought the great melodramas were
actually not not sentimental stories of love and
[robert_pippin]: despair but intensely critical of the form
of life emerging in the late modern west
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: i wrote a book about douglas sir
i think it's the greatest melodramatist in the
[robert_pippin]: nineteen nineteen fifties
[pj_wehry]: forgive me actually i don't know what
is he written
[robert_pippin]: well now this is a filmmaker who
wrote
[pj_wehry]: oh
[robert_pippin]: great melo dramas who directed great melodramas
in the nineteen fifties like all that heaven
[robert_pippin]: allows written on the wind imitation of
life
[pj_wehry]: okay
[robert_pippin]: the as
[pj_wehry]: got
[robert_pippin]: these are these are these are films
that you know were immensely popular at the
[robert_pippin]: time i mean this was extremely provocative
as a philosophical enterprise because these are films
[robert_pippin]: that start hudson jane why man they
were just written off as was then called
[robert_pippin]: women's films or of sentimental love stories
with an enormous overwrought emotionality to them i
[robert_pippin]: thought they were incredibly subversive critical
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: doctors about the aridity and sterility of
late modern bourgeui life especially sort of suburban
[robert_pippin]: life that kind of thing the corrupting
effects of consumerism and consumer capitalism so uh
[robert_pippin]: that's basically the story of how i
drifted from being an english major to being
[robert_pippin]: a philos the professor being
[pj_wehry]: yea
[robert_pippin]: in the committee on social thought released
into
[pj_wehry]: yes
[robert_pippin]: this realm of what is now become
a kind of sub discipline of philosophy film
[robert_pippin]: philosophy film
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: as hilossophy not philosophy of film what
is it what kind of esthetic object is
[robert_pippin]: it but that film is a mode
of reflective thought and literature
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: is a mode of reflective thought that
philosophy by attempting to understand can actually illuminate
[robert_pippin]: areas of human life i what it
is like to be a human being that
[robert_pippin]: discursive analysis of concepts can't give us
and you know what is philosophy except an
[robert_pippin]: attempt to understand ourselves if we really
wanted to understand ourselves we have these documents
[robert_pippin]: i sense portray ourselves to ourselves in
a very thoughtful reflective way illuminates part of
[robert_pippin]: human experience that can't be illuminated otherwise
which gets to your remarked before about the
[robert_pippin]: problem of truth literature which is a
problem i'm working on now
[pj_wehry]: really that's awesome um well i would
hope you'd come back for that book as
[pj_wehry]: well but the one of the first
things that kind of comes to mind you're
[pj_wehry]: in chicago i'm sure you this name
how does your work interact with dr martha
[pj_wehry]: nuts mom
[robert_pippin]: well you know mars has been a
colncere for thirty years or so and she
[robert_pippin]: has her own approach to literature as
as contributing to philosophy her book loves knowledge
[robert_pippin]: or in her book on greek literature
the fragility goodness so i consider myself a
[robert_pippin]: kind of fellow traveller that field the
difference between us is that she she tends
[robert_pippin]: to think that the primary function of
literature it's philosophical dimensions is kind of educative
[robert_pippin]: you think that it kind of can
make us better persons at it's a kind
[robert_pippin]: of form
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: of moral education contributing to a certain
kind of humility about our practices and the
[robert_pippin]: confidence we have in them that's that's
fine but i don't i myself don't think
[robert_pippin]: that literature makes us better people um
[pj_wehry]: uh
[robert_pippin]: think care
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: it can illuminate something that isn't illuminated
otherwise but i have a much more ambitious
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: sense that if we
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: think about this seriously it changes it
should change our conception of philosophy itself
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: i don't think martha thinks that
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: but she's over in the were both
members of the philosophy department but she's like
[robert_pippin]: i'm also in the commitee on social
thought she's also in the law school the
[robert_pippin]: law school keeps her s are pretty
busy so we've been on some panels together
[robert_pippin]: years ago but we don't have kind
of continuous
[pj_wehry]: oh
[robert_pippin]: interaction she she does her thing i
do my then
[pj_wehry]: yeah for sure i was just curious
because there's definite cross over i've read some
[pj_wehry]: of her work as well um
[robert_pippin]: hm oh
[pj_wehry]: so i was just curious like artly
because of the location now that you're at
[pj_wehry]: the same spot
[robert_pippin]: m
[pj_wehry]: so what does film give us that
discursive philosophy or literature for that matter give
[pj_wehry]: us that discursive philosophy doesn't
[robert_pippin]: well to go back to that question
of truth it gives us a kind of
[robert_pippin]: nother another access to truth philosophy
[pj_wehry]: oh
[robert_pippin]: raditionally has been very skeptical of claims
going al the way back to plato
[pj_wehry]: right
[robert_pippin]: whose argument was that though poets convince
us by stirring up our emotions by creating
[robert_pippin]: a kind of passionate response say greek
tragedy or epic greek literature that is very
[robert_pippin]: very untrustworthy according to plato the poets
are just one step away from sophist that
[robert_pippin]: they can manipulate people's emotions to get
them to believe things that aren't true um
[robert_pippin]: but i don't myself i don't think
that's that's the right way to look at
[robert_pippin]: but it's just way too simple to
think that great literature for example or film
[robert_pippin]: works on us merely at the affective
or emotional level it inspires as you watch
[robert_pippin]: a great film or read a great
work of art literature poetry inspires a form
[robert_pippin]: of reflection why why is human life
being portrayed this way what's the point what
[robert_pippin]: is the work of art attempting to
show us now as i said philosophers are
[robert_pippin]: very skeptical about that because they think
you know truth is a matter of propositions
[robert_pippin]: is we claim in assertoric judgments to
be true and that there must be truth
[robert_pippin]: conditions ways of knowing whether it's true
or not for it to have the status
[robert_pippin]: of a truth bearer and the
[robert_pippin]: he so the problem with that is
it limits possible truth say a notion of
[robert_pippin]: correctness or correspondence that if i say
um m you know the yeah the melting
[robert_pippin]: temperature of copper is a thousand seven
hundred degrees i understand that before i know
[robert_pippin]: whether it's true or not by understanding
what it would be if it were true
[robert_pippin]: and the problem with say let's just
stick with literature or novels they don't assert
[robert_pippin]: anything don't claim anything to be true
their imaginative fictions about imagined fictional characters how
[robert_pippin]: can that be true i mean in
a literal sense it's false he never was
[robert_pippin]: a hamlet never was a charles foster
kane the stories are false that's quite symplistic
[robert_pippin]: because of course literature doesn't pretend to
be about real things in the strict literal
[robert_pippin]: sense sometimes real characters show up in
fiction but they're fictionalized they're not meant to
[robert_pippin]: be asserted and the truth of literature
is not that the story is true it's
[robert_pippin]: something else so the question is what
is something else what what is it that
[robert_pippin]: literature provides us that can't be done
by philosophy as in your in your question
[robert_pippin]: i mean the simplest thing is what
it is like to be a human being
[robert_pippin]: facing
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: dilemmas and situations that are typical of
the kinds of things human beings face especially
[robert_pippin]: in different historical worlds but worlds that
overlap because of the kind of commonality of
[robert_pippin]: experience of the human qua human so
the notion of a form of illumination or
[robert_pippin]: revelation or disclosure there's a wonderful phrase
by the philosopher bernard williams said that said
[robert_pippin]: we ought to distinguish between what we
think we think and what we really think
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: one
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: one function of literature is to show
us that what we really think might not
[robert_pippin]: be what we think we think and
then it raises a kind of critical question
[robert_pippin]: of whether we ought to think that
way so as i say philosophers are skeptical
[robert_pippin]: of this because how do you know
that what a literature literary object purports to
[robert_pippin]: disclose it's true h just pushes the
question back to shouldn't it be formulated in
[robert_pippin]: a proposition we can then investigate another
way i mean in up in simclaire's famous
[robert_pippin]: novel the jungle we could say well
that depiction of factory conditions under under capitalism
[robert_pippin]: it's true that's that's the way it
was but then we've translated the novel into
[robert_pippin]: a discursive proposition the conditions are these
and these and these and these and then
[robert_pippin]: we know how to figure out whether
that's true in one way figuring out whether
[robert_pippin]: it's true it's not by reading the
novel again we have to go somewhere else
[robert_pippin]: so the novel isn't say anything true
it just provokes us wonder if the depiction
[robert_pippin]: is true and then we switch to
the mode of truth bearers propositions assertions judgments
[robert_pippin]: evidence correspondent but that doesn't tell us
what it was like to live under those
[robert_pippin]: conditions there's no way to translate that
into discursive prose if we try to do
[robert_pippin]: it we get something incredibly clumsy if
you there's a famous shakespear sonet sonnet one
[robert_pippin]: thirty called whose first line is my
mistresses eyes are nothing like the sun son
[robert_pippin]: to say her lips not anywhere near
as red as beautiful coral and i said
[robert_pippin]: well what's what's shakespear trying to say
nd somebody says well you know what a
[robert_pippin]: saying is my love is not very
pretty but she's okay with me you
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: know you can sort of see the
problem right way or even more general thing
[robert_pippin]: like love is not a function of
physical
[pj_wehry]: ah
[robert_pippin]: beauty
[pj_wehry]: right
[robert_pippin]: that just misses the whole tonality and
ora of meaningfulness communicated in the poem deep
[robert_pippin]: love communicated in the poem not
[pj_wehry]: what
[robert_pippin]: a concession or anything go ahead
[pj_wehry]: i mean that makes total sense like
i mean the function of the poem like
[pj_wehry]: if you if i say if i
said that to my wife you know and
[pj_wehry]: i said the version
[robert_pippin]: right
[pj_wehry]: of like hey um if
[robert_pippin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: i gave her a poem and then
i said by the way what this means
[pj_wehry]: is you're very beautiful i would literally
kill the function of the poem right like
[pj_wehry]: i mean unless the poem
[robert_pippin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: was just as bad that explanation um
[robert_pippin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: and so there's something else there are
you familiar with the rule of metaphor by
[pj_wehry]: paul record so he has he has
a lot to
[robert_pippin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: say about this in terms of um
he uses the the metaphor as kind of
[pj_wehry]: this discussion of these kinds of things
it still didn't give me a full answer
[pj_wehry]: but it helped me i helped i
think put me on the right path the
[pj_wehry]: idea that when you talk about he's
as he's like a lion and so it's
[pj_wehry]: like oh he means he's really brave
and it's like if i if you can
[pj_wehry]: fully paraphrase something then the metaphor is
debt what that extra something is is the
[pj_wehry]: is the hard part and it's precisely
the fact that we can't always explain what
[pj_wehry]: extra something is is that what may
makes literature valuable in and of itself
[robert_pippin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: um so i don't
[robert_pippin]: that's
[pj_wehry]: know
[robert_pippin]: it
[pj_wehry]: go head
[robert_pippin]: yeah that's a famous old problem is
called the paradox of paraphrase and there are
[robert_pippin]: many writers who move written about it
but the challenge that philosopher s then sam
[robert_pippin]: is well how is it that we're
on to something that we can't paraphrase what
[robert_pippin]: what would it mean to be on
to it
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: to be to be if we can't
formulate it determinately discursively not only how do
[robert_pippin]: we know what it is because we
know we haven't really distinguished it from what
[robert_pippin]: it is not we can't give it
determinant boundaries say in a very general sense
[robert_pippin]: of the meaning meaningfulness the significance of
the general experience of reading the poem how
[robert_pippin]: are we on to it and how
do we get anywhere near the question of
[robert_pippin]: its being true if
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: it can't be re formulated so in
this regard i've been working lately on the
[robert_pippin]: way in which the philosopher martin hediger
tries to express this kind of problem we're
[robert_pippin]: not
[pj_wehry]: ah
[robert_pippin]: on to meaningfulness by any kind of
cognitive grasp of it it's not nothing either
[robert_pippin]: in hydregar's word for how we're on
to it is a tune met even one
[robert_pippin]: stem and it has that same kind
of musical residence be in tune with something
[robert_pippin]: that that's that's a very unusual kind
of experiential relation to work of art or
[robert_pippin]: to meaningfulness in it human life if
we ask somebody what did it mean to
[robert_pippin]: you to go through that war we
don't
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: expect the list of propositions very often
we expect to kind of narrative well let
[robert_pippin]: me tell you a story and we
hope by telling the story someone can get
[robert_pippin]: a sense of what it meant to
us without being able to give a determinate
[robert_pippin]: paraphrase of what the sense of it
sense of it is there's these these sort
[robert_pippin]: of co ordinated notions of illumination disclosure
attunement truthfulness the credibility and genuineness the disclosure
[robert_pippin]: of a kind of deep meaningfulness that
also we tend to think of is not
[robert_pippin]: just the meaningfulness of what happens to
one character and what it's like for that
[robert_pippin]: character we tend to think of it
as typical as having a universal or more
[robert_pippin]: general significance and just what it meant
for this character and what it means for
[robert_pippin]: me personally to read it we tend
to think something is illuminated of a very
[robert_pippin]: general nature about the human experience so
meaningfulness is not the kind of thing that's
[robert_pippin]: subject to strict by vail and sinpropositional
assertions and so forth but nevertheless it would
[robert_pippin]: it would be a very crude thing
to say therefore it doesn't exist there isn't
[robert_pippin]: anything there other than what could be
paraphrased and especially if the question is truth
[robert_pippin]: if
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: you can't if you can't say it
you can't show it either show and saying
[robert_pippin]: distinction is crucial to this kind of
kind of discussion but i think that's a
[robert_pippin]: very impoverished way of looking at it
it doesn't it doesn't explain for example the
[robert_pippin]: unbelievable hold that sophocles or shakespeare hamlet
to or war and peace for example have
[robert_pippin]: on the human imagination and the way
in which we're gripped by it revealing something
[robert_pippin]: to us couldn't be revealed any other
way
[pj_wehry]: yuh and one i want to make
sure we do talk about your book but
[pj_wehry]: forgive me i
[robert_pippin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: can't avoid this
[robert_pippin]: yah
[pj_wehry]: this question what do you think about
the fact that
[robert_pippin]: oh oh
[pj_wehry]: is part of this discussion
[robert_pippin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: yeah the fact that while we are
acted
[robert_pippin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: upon and we deal with the
[robert_pippin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: truth as it's presented to us we
also act upon the world and we create
[robert_pippin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: and we create truth in the world
[robert_pippin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: with with the
[robert_pippin]: yes
[pj_wehry]: power like when we act upon the
world we make things true right
[robert_pippin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: and so is there something about fiction
and about these kinds of things that help
[robert_pippin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: us in that creative ass etive truth
[robert_pippin]: well not quite sure you mean but
it is certainly true that that literature can
[robert_pippin]: have a powerful effect on
[robert_pippin]: not just for individual
[robert_pippin]: individual orientation let's say to the world
put it that where the literature can both
[robert_pippin]: reveal create an orientation way being pointed
in life in a certain direction rather than
[robert_pippin]: another that we wouldn't have been able
to do uh we wouldn't have been able
[robert_pippin]: to achieve otherwise it can be transformative
not not in the going back to what
[robert_pippin]: you were saying about martha nisbumit it
doesn't necessarily make us any better but there
[robert_pippin]: is we can
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: be changed maybe this is what you're
getting at we
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: can be changed by the experience of
great great great art for example i come
[robert_pippin]: from the south and when i read
in college just about everything by falkner my
[robert_pippin]: my sense of what it was to
live in the south to be haunted by
[robert_pippin]: the sins the shells oh
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: sins that have never been expiated we've
been acknowledged properly in south just the opposite
[pj_wehry]: m yeah
[robert_pippin]: that that sort of gave me much
different sense of he what it was to
[robert_pippin]: live in an areo haunted by so
many ghosts who were still quite in the
[robert_pippin]: ghostly sense alive and and permeating the
experience of living in the south maybe maybe
[robert_pippin]: that kind of thing one could say
but literature that it can reorneent this in
[robert_pippin]: various ways so
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: take the issue of film melodramas we
it's true a lot of films there's a
[robert_pippin]: kind of first view it in what
you just follow the plot and get emotionally
[robert_pippin]: involved in the then you finished the
film but then you think well wait a
[robert_pippin]: minute there's something weird about this aspect
or that aspect of it then you go
[robert_pippin]: back and watch it again and you
find going back to you think you're thinking
[robert_pippin]: what you think you find well what
i was taking to be just a kind
[robert_pippin]: of straight forward information a certain romantic
form of life in late bourgeois modernity is
[robert_pippin]: actually wait a minute quite ironic about
it quite critical of it quite quite seriously
[robert_pippin]: subversive and you know it's funny in
this regard because the reception of many melodramas
[robert_pippin]: like circs the perception of them it
is only a first viewing reception the people
[robert_pippin]: don't people don't often have same thing
with western same thing with filmar same thing
[robert_pippin]: with many holly was genres like the
thriller something like an hitch coke i don't
[robert_pippin]: really realize that there's kind of a
trap door in the bottom there there's another
[robert_pippin]: film another novel
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: inside the novel people read flobear's man
bovary and they just they
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: read it for the plot then they
don't they don't quite realize the tremendously subversive
[robert_pippin]: nature of it or the uh the
enormous literary experimentation of the novel that sort
[robert_pippin]: of trying to change our view what
art is which is a kind of crucial
[robert_pippin]: problem modern art it was called modernist
art in which the value and function of
[robert_pippin]: art is now not taken for granted
and is up for grabs there's a whole
[robert_pippin]: series of artistic works after the eighteen
fifties or so in which we get re
[robert_pippin]: oriented with respect to the question of
art and its function in the world
[pj_wehry]: and what's interesting is that when you
[robert_pippin]: ah
[pj_wehry]: have like this
[robert_pippin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: these well made novels and well made
[robert_pippin]: m
[pj_wehry]: movies
[robert_pippin]: my
[pj_wehry]: that people often internalize the trap door
without knowing it's there
[robert_pippin]: right
[pj_wehry]: is
[robert_pippin]: right
[pj_wehry]: the power
[robert_pippin]: true
[pj_wehry]: which is the power
[robert_pippin]: ye
[pj_wehry]: of one criticism
[robert_pippin]: eh
[pj_wehry]: to reveal like this
[robert_pippin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: is what's actually happening to you but
also
[robert_pippin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: just the power of the medium itself
which is probably more to
[robert_pippin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: plato's point that it's sneaky but
[robert_pippin]: yeah well
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: you raise also the interesting question of
if you if you take this you of
[robert_pippin]: literature and this truth inimaor even you
know painting si what is criticism supposed to
[robert_pippin]: be like if it's not paraphrase
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: how if what's this one of the
chapters the first chapter in the book
[pj_wehry]: i was
[robert_pippin]: what is
[pj_wehry]: just about to ask you about it
so this is perfect yeah
[robert_pippin]: what is philosophical criticism of the arts
right as we were saying before it can
[robert_pippin]: just be a kind of discursive paraphrase
what truth claims are implicit in the the
[robert_pippin]: work of art so what do you
write about well it's very very difficult actually
[robert_pippin]: to do it at all well or
authentically because you have to both pay attention
[robert_pippin]: to the details very close attention to
the details how they illuminate something like the
[robert_pippin]: form of self reflection any literary object
embodies i mean by that that it's kind
[robert_pippin]: of a funny way of anthropomorifhizing works
but
[pj_wehry]: ah
[robert_pippin]: they're they're actually quite self conscious that
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: they set out to portray things in
a certain way for a certain point to
[robert_pippin]: make a certain reason and it's you
know to illuminate that without botlarizing it simplifying
[robert_pippin]: it or all the rest of that
stuff
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: you have to try to re create
in your attentiveness to the details something like
[robert_pippin]: the experience of coming to attend to
those details have to try to embody in
[robert_pippin]: a critical account which is sometimes can
be quite detailed you still have to try
[robert_pippin]: to illuminate what it was like to
be brought to attend to these details what
[robert_pippin]: it was like to experience them suddenly
salient in the second or third viewing of
[robert_pippin]: the film or reading of the novel
so criticism has this task of not only
[robert_pippin]: okay trying to show you what you
already know as you say without knowing it
[robert_pippin]: but to
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: do so in a way that attends
to the dimension of experience one has notion
[robert_pippin]: of attunement again being on to the
meaningfulness of the work which isn't a function
[robert_pippin]: of you know kind of cognitive self
reflection it's a much more deeply experiential odality
[robert_pippin]: of attentiveness and that requires the critic
to try to bring that out in the
[robert_pippin]: reader of the criticism so that's that's
quite a large topic what
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: is philosophical point of literary criticism i
mean until until the dominance of theory and
[robert_pippin]: literary criticism in the sixties and seventies
the old idea was just sort of philological
[robert_pippin]: you know to whom is this author
indebted what was the context historically at the
[robert_pippin]: time of the production of the work
what do we know about the various drafts
[robert_pippin]: of the work and the changes that
were made what are the literary sources that
[robert_pippin]: the author used or the synematic resaroyou
now really just
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: kind of logical explication but once we
asked him more radically what literature was doing
[robert_pippin]: in this in this case philosophically we
have to have a different mode of criticism
[robert_pippin]: as well
[pj_wehry]: m and then so you have philosophical
[robert_pippin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: criticism in that first chapter and then
you have philosophical fiction and what makes fiction
[pj_wehry]: philosophical
[robert_pippin]: m well it has to do with
this notion of literary form m you know
[robert_pippin]: the this is a function both of
the structure of the plot and the nature
[robert_pippin]: of the characters but also the decision
an author makes about how to present the
[robert_pippin]: material how to actually eh organize and
show us the various elements that say make
[robert_pippin]: up a realist fictional novel and then
try to present them in a way in
[robert_pippin]: which the implicit reflectiveness of the work
is it's always also being about itself being
[robert_pippin]: about why it is presenting the material
this way rather than that way this this
[robert_pippin]: dimension of of literary orsytematic form is
that key to now i should say i
[robert_pippin]: mean sometimes if you if you raise
the question i well you know it's one
[robert_pippin]: thing for the follow the plot and
understand what's going on it's another thing to
[robert_pippin]: ask why is it being presented this
way rather than that way the answer can
[robert_pippin]: sometimes be to entertain us to
[pj_wehry]: right
[robert_pippin]: thrill us to scare us because you
know literature and film are also commercial products
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: they're made for audiences and even in
the
[pj_wehry]: very
[robert_pippin]: cast
[pj_wehry]: much so
[robert_pippin]: even in the case of hir like
henry williams he wanted the books to be
[robert_pippin]: sold to be read so sometimes you
can say well that's that's the main point
[robert_pippin]: and there's nothing wrong with it means
sometimes the point is to make something beautiful
[robert_pippin]: sometimes the point is to experiment with
literary form sometimes the point is to comment
[pj_wehry]: oh
[robert_pippin]: on other literature intertextuality at great works
many of them not all we certainly admire
[robert_pippin]: great great works of art without any
interest in whether they have a philosophical dimension
[robert_pippin]: or not some of them don't many
of them don't but
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: in the case of works that that
seem quite philosophically ambitious we get a sense
[robert_pippin]: that we're being shown something in order
to reveal something we might not have attended
[robert_pippin]: to that is a truth about human
experience is of course raises the question well
[robert_pippin]: if they're not universally qualified propositions what's
the nature of generality in this illumination by
[robert_pippin]: a fictional object i mean you've got
a story about a man who goes to
[robert_pippin]: europe to rescue boy who's been trapped
or whose relatives think he's being manipulated by
[robert_pippin]: a married woman who's with whom he's
living with an affair and then the man
[robert_pippin]: stays long enough to real so that
actually the guy is better off than he
[robert_pippin]: would be going back to this boring
town
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: that he came from we when you
know well that's just a really interesting story
[robert_pippin]: or you could say well isn't james
in his novel the ambassadors isn't isn't he
[robert_pippin]: kind of trying to make a point
about the the experience of a kind of
[robert_pippin]: european culture whose value system is fading
lapsing and unattractive american context
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: which the kind of self consciousness and
moral self righteousness the american experience of itself
[robert_pippin]: is actually not a suitable counterpoint the
the decadence and collapsing value system of the
[robert_pippin]: europeans and you realize what were something
very quite typical of being said about emerging
[robert_pippin]: form of moral life in modern capitalism
um and so you know you realize as
[robert_pippin]: you read the ambassador this is not
meant just to entertain us or it's trying
[robert_pippin]: to say something general about the state
of our sense of how we ought to
[robert_pippin]: be living in a world in which
many of the common assumptions about that have
[robert_pippin]: collapsed and we don't we don't really
find incredible anymore we don't really we don't
[robert_pippin]: really have our parents yet in this
world that's emerging and pre world right right
[robert_pippin]: before the where one sort of exploded
the illusion that we did have a kind
[robert_pippin]: of common solid moral foundation
[pj_wehry]: uh
[robert_pippin]: but that raises
[pj_wehry]: would that
[robert_pippin]: the question of of generality of how
how a singular work about a singular character
[robert_pippin]: can have general significance
[pj_wehry]: ah is there something almost phenomenal logical
about about that generality and that kind of
[robert_pippin]: a
[pj_wehry]: in the great works of art this
is why you have certain works of art
[pj_wehry]: that seem to go beyond
[robert_pippin]: what's
[pj_wehry]: time
[robert_pippin]: at
[pj_wehry]: you know look at people recognize themselves
in hamlet and king lear these sorts of
[pj_wehry]: things and i think that there's a
the generality
[robert_pippin]: a
[pj_wehry]: comes from recognition right that people continually
over and over again recognize their own selves
[pj_wehry]: and specifically their own subjective consciousness is
as represented is that a fair way
[robert_pippin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: to think about it
[robert_pippin]: sure yeah yeah sure i mean i
would put the problem this way as well
[robert_pippin]: since plato and aristotle there have been
two general ways of thinking and philosophy about
[robert_pippin]: universality or generality one is abstractive you
try to leave out particular elements and keep
[robert_pippin]: abstracting to a commonality that gives you
something shared by all of the particulars so
[robert_pippin]: questions like human nature you tried it
exclude things that are particular to various cultures
[robert_pippin]: and experience s until you get something
that's shared by all of them a very
[robert_pippin]: abstract notion of generality least common
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: denominator or most common denominator that kind
of thing but
[pj_wehry]: the essence
[robert_pippin]: yeah but but plato clearly is interested
in that's more an aristotelian conception of generality
[pj_wehry]: hm
[robert_pippin]: of inductive generality but plato clearly thought
with his theory of ideas that there's another
[robert_pippin]: kind of generality which has more to
do with a kind of concrete typicality something
[robert_pippin]: influenced haglquite a lot i mean the
idea is very simple i i might say
[robert_pippin]: to you for example now take michael
jordan that's
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: basketball player
[pj_wehry]: oh
[robert_pippin]: that's what a basketball player is
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: embodies by being the particular he is
more perfectly any other player i play basketball
[robert_pippin]: but i'm not typical of basket book
i'm a
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: shadow faint
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: faint shadow michael jordan who is the
idea of a basketball player but in a
[robert_pippin]: concrete particular so that's not abstractive universality
that's not inductive universality
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: that's a way in which a singular
instance can be it's perfection representative of a
[robert_pippin]: kind of
[pj_wehry]: uh
[robert_pippin]: typicality
[pj_wehry]: uh
[robert_pippin]: and that is
[pj_wehry]: okay
[robert_pippin]: what i think yeah go ahead
[pj_wehry]: i was gonna say first of all
all chicago wins are very proud of you
[pj_wehry]: for
[robert_pippin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: referencing michael jordan and not another player
of
[robert_pippin]: my name my name my name is
pippin
[pj_wehry]: yes you have to m would this
be similar is this kind of where you
[pj_wehry]: think can is going with his idea
of exemplars
[robert_pippin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: the
[robert_pippin]: i mean
[pj_wehry]: the
[robert_pippin]: it
[pj_wehry]: creation
[robert_pippin]: is
[pj_wehry]: of judgment of categories i'm sorry go
ahead
[robert_pippin]: yeah i mean it is esthetic theory
i mean cat was really interested mostly in
[robert_pippin]: the beauty of nature but he does
have a theory of the role of beauty
[robert_pippin]: and art but he thinks he has
a much more restricted view
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: he thinks that the greatest achievement of
a kind of typicality and hart works is
[robert_pippin]: the the capacity of an art work
um to interest us create a kind of
[robert_pippin]: passionate involvement with it that isn't self
interested or a
[pj_wehry]: ah
[robert_pippin]: mere matter of pleasure that this is
this is his famous claim that beauty works
[robert_pippin]: of art for example is a symbol
of morality to say
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: the experience of art works or especially
the beautiful in nature compells us in a
[robert_pippin]: way that and help us understand that
our vocation in life it's not just pleasure
[robert_pippin]: seeking because where we're not interested in
the esthetic object as a means or enjoyment
[robert_pippin]: i mean if the work is genuinely
artistic it's quite an interesting point kamak its
[robert_pippin]: effect on us is not to think
of it like a good glass of wine
[robert_pippin]: or a good meal or whatever kind
of pleasant experience where an object is a
[robert_pippin]: mere means we feel the object has
a certain kind of authority over us and
[robert_pippin]: demands a mode of attentiveness that is
pleasant but not self interested pleasure it's a
[robert_pippin]: way of what kant calls our super
sensible nature we have to get into the
[robert_pippin]: metaphysics of that but just to say
are or we get a sense that we
[robert_pippin]: this is in general and what what
you thought about the kind of most awe
[robert_pippin]: inspiring feature of human beings sensual animals
though they are they are capable of acting
[robert_pippin]: for the sense of a moral ideal
in a way that would injure or destroy
[robert_pippin]: all of their sensible self interest even
their love for their family
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: could be sacrificed for the sake of
what's right we have this capacity and i
[robert_pippin]: thought well that's one of the things
i stand in awe of second
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: film with all the starry heavens above
and the moral law within and art can
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: play into that by showing us that
we have a capacity or an involvement in
[robert_pippin]: comportment with objects in the world that
create a kind of pleasure that's well beyond
[robert_pippin]: particular self interested pleasure but has a
kind of intellectual
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: or you know a dimension of purity
that connects with our moral moral vocation to
[robert_pippin]: art works can
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: exemplify that in a way that and
convince us reassure us that our general vocation
[robert_pippin]: in life is not a self interested
pleasure seeking beings but we have the capacity
[robert_pippin]: of actually suspending all of that the
sake of something it isn't merely self interested
[robert_pippin]: pleasure and in art works say it
can be a kind of pleasure that distinctive
[robert_pippin]: in the fact that it's not it's
ennobling pleasure kind of self elevation and convincing
[robert_pippin]: us that we can attend to things
in a way that doesn't doesn't actually have
[robert_pippin]: anything to do with our purely sensible
natures
[pj_wehry]: m yeah um so i want to
be conscious of your time uh
[robert_pippin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: do you mind kind of as we
wrap things up just talking a little bit
[pj_wehry]: for
[robert_pippin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: a concrete example of what you're talking
about with phil ophical criticism and philosophical fiction
[pj_wehry]: your chapter on prose a shadow of
love or is it the
[robert_pippin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: shadow of love
[robert_pippin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: they said that
[robert_pippin]: it's about jealousy so
[pj_wehry]: shadow of love excuse me
[robert_pippin]: yeah the first great novel involves basically
for
[pj_wehry]: oh
[robert_pippin]: crucial love affairs over the course of
its three three thousand pages m and uh
[robert_pippin]: and all of them what plays an
enormously powerful role is jealousy
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: a character a lover beloved mostly lovers
anxiety that the person they love doesn't share
[robert_pippin]: the same dimension of love that they
do and so actually that typifies is the
[robert_pippin]: tremendous uncertainty all human relationships we want
to be taken by others be the way
[robert_pippin]: we take ourselves but if we if
we actually work trying to sure the other
[robert_pippin]: takes ourselves so it's the way we
take ourselves we end up kind of creating
[robert_pippin]: a fictional self we a kind of
persona we present
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: to the world which then creates the
anxiety that we're not being loved or attended
[robert_pippin]: to for ourselves but for the the
character we've created in order to be attended
[robert_pippin]: to as ourselves
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: so jealousy typifies a great deal of
general unknowingness and in human
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: social relations and just trying to i
mean people find it sometimes when they first
[robert_pippin]: read the novel kind of strange that
price thinks that love is really always a
[robert_pippin]: matter of jealousy i mean we tend
to think of jealousy as a kind of
[robert_pippin]: character flaw you don't trust me i
mean i've given you no reason to think
[robert_pippin]: i'm betraying you but actually a much
more deep level in proof that i try
[robert_pippin]: to bring out in that chapter in
which the problem of jealousy is unavoidab it's
[robert_pippin]: not because people are pathological and they're
possessive they don't want the person to be
[robert_pippin]: with anybody else it's that they don't
know if they play a role in the
[robert_pippin]: person's imagination they think they do that
they would like to
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: play so they're constantly searching for reassurances
in a way that can be actually quite
[robert_pippin]: destructive of the relationship it's very hard
to avoid this problem people say well these
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: people are just pathological or not they're
not really interestin characters because they're all neurotic
[robert_pippin]: they just can't but you know this
is again a first reading second reading kind
[robert_pippin]: of thing you know you you the
first way through you think you got these
[robert_pippin]: corrupt decadent people that just
[pj_wehry]: ye
[robert_pippin]: can't relax and enjoy each other
[pj_wehry]: oh
[robert_pippin]: but second or third time through you
realize something else is going on here there's
[robert_pippin]: a really big huge philosophical problem in
the relation between self knowledge and knowledge of
[robert_pippin]: others that the dynamic involved in being
taken to be who won wants to be
[robert_pippin]: taken to be actually however unavoidable complicates
things a great deal and prose also you
[robert_pippin]: know shows us there is something about
this that's that's not just destructive but quite
[robert_pippin]: important it accounts for this uncertainty in
romantic relationships accounts for a kind of constant
[robert_pippin]: tension it actually makes the relationship much
more important does it take it for granted
[robert_pippin]: actually way of enhancing the and making
the relationship more honest by acknowledging to one's
[robert_pippin]: self one's own uncertainty about this and
how limited the ways are you know asking
[robert_pippin]: asking the person do you do you
really love me do you do you think
[robert_pippin]: you really understand me well that's not
going to get you anywhere the general
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: problems we've been talking about you can't
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: discursively convince somebody by an argument they
don't have anything to worry about we always
[robert_pippin]: have
[pj_wehry]: therefore
[robert_pippin]: something to worry
[pj_wehry]: i love you yeah sorry
[robert_pippin]: they're kind of saying yeah right exactly
[pj_wehry]: oh
[robert_pippin]: we always have something to worry
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: about but that's not unexpected because human
interaction these self knowledge and knowledge of others
[robert_pippin]: of us and our knowledge of them
has a kind of dynamic i mean henry
[robert_pippin]: james is good at this as well
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: he's always her trying scenes in which
the question is does she know that i
[robert_pippin]: know she knows that i know kind
of thing
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[robert_pippin]: um
[pj_wehry]: oh
[robert_pippin]: and we don't really notice that in
every day life it's much too complicating a
[robert_pippin]: relationship but when we sort step back
have a literary expression of it our own
[robert_pippin]: sense of what we've taken for granted
in our relationship since our lack of self
[robert_pippin]: knowledge about the sort of underlying anxiety
involved in all close relationships gets illuminated and
[robert_pippin]: we learn something we learned something
[pj_wehry]: m
[robert_pippin]: true
[pj_wehry]: m well i think that's great place
to wrap up dr pippin thank you so
[pj_wehry]: much if he is there one last
take away you'd leave for our listeners
[robert_pippin]: the book
[pj_wehry]: there you go h appreciate it thank
you so much for coming on today it's
[pj_wehry]: been a real pleasure
[robert_pippin]: my pleasure take care of