Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Every Friday, join us as we dive into the latest in real estate multifamily with David Moghavem, Head of East Coast Acquisitions at Trion Properties. David invites top experts who know the ins, outs, and trends shaping the real estate multifamily market across the nation!
Whether you’re a seasoned investor or just curious about where the next big opportunity might be, Deal Flow Friday brings you the weekly inside scoop on what’s hot, what’s not, and what to watch for in today’s ever-evolving real estate scene.
Paul Schon (00:17)
All right. Welcome to another episode of Deal Flow Friday. I'm your host David Moghavem. Today we have Paul Schon Paul is a established developer in LA, been developing for 15 plus years doing multifamily over 30 projects and
single family homes. So Paul, it's great to have you in the L.A. office. I know you had to maneuver a lot of traffic with the flood we just had in WeHo today. The sinkholes that are forming things like I've read like two people fell into a sinkhole this morning. So yeah, I don't know. I don't know how we're going to fix all that. think L.A. has enough issues, but now we have another one. But thanks for making it out. I appreciate it. And good to have you on.
Thanks for having me. I enjoy what you do and I appreciate the opportunity. Yeah. I see you're a fan of the pod. You're liking the content. I like that. And we were just talking earlier how, you know, I think it's good. got to talk operator to operator boots on the ground, what we're seeing out there. And I'm sure for LA development, it's not easy. I mean, for everyone, it's not easy. If anyone's telling you otherwise, it's. They're lying to you. but for LA development, man, it's.
It's been tough. actually was looking at a few deals that are bank owned that were developments, I was looking at like a failed co-living deal. I was looking at a lender that a bridge lender that took out the construction loan that now owns it. And I think you're just seeing whoever kind of went vertical during that time. It was, it was hard to get out if as a merchant developer. So
I kind of want to hear your take and hear like the details of how this has been versus, know, the 15 plus years that you've been in the industry. What's different. And we'll just love to hear your take to start there. Yeah. Well, I'll start with this. I've waved the white flag on ground up development at this time. Yeah. So I love developing. It's my favorite part of the business. That's tough. Like just to, sorry to cut you off. LA needs housing, LA needs development. And here you are sitting here.
Waving the white flag. need a white flag to wave it. rates, mansion tax, or like we've talked about it dozens of times. It just, it doesn't make sense. Costs are so high, uh, permitting costs, getting through the time delays, just multiple things that just don't make sense to do ground up podium buildings, which is mostly what I've done. So podium, mid rise, five, six, seven story buildings.
They just do not make sense. I wrote a pretty interesting art, post on, LinkedIn the other day on a building we bought. And I deconstructed that building because there was a newer building. If we were to build that building today, it would have cost significantly more than what we bought it for. And today in the market, I'm sure you've seen it. You can buy buildings for significantly below the cost. It costs the developer.
It just doesn't replacement costs. Exactly. I do. I do want to say type five, two story buildings, three story buildings might make more sense in a better, in a good location where you can get a high rents, but you're what we were building a lot does not make any sense at all. So that's why I waved the white flag. I said I'm on pause, even though I love to develop. So the type five, are you waving the white flag on the type five stuff? Yeah. If I see, yeah, I'm more focused on buying existing at the moment. I think it just makes
It's that time of the cycle. I think it's like, you got to look at the cycles. I think there's a time of the cycle where it makes sense to build and there's time to cycle and make sense to buy. think absolutely when the time of the cycle would make sense to buy versus build. So let's get into the numbers a little bit. If you saw a development deal that would make sense, what kind of metric would you be leaning in on? Like what kind of yield on cost maybe that looks like? would cost is the main metric we look at and
you have to be over a seven and you just can't get over seven with real numbers and real assumptions today. Right. And what's factoring into that seven is obviously costs, but more specifically construction costs, timing costs, financing costs there. And then also, I guess to get to a seven, you're reverting maybe like out of five or something, but a lot of that, that spread is
maybe someone would say doesn't need to be that much of a spread, because of ULA, then you you have to be at a higher spread than maybe other markets because of that transfer tax. Yeah. And the, the, the time value of money, because these projects, like I'll share the first building we built was in 2012. took us a little more than 24 months from purchase to refinance once stabilized. now that same building would take
four to five years to build. Yeah. And that's by right. And that's by right. Yeah. So that equity is just sitting there. So yes, you have to have a good spread because of your time value of money. What's the biggest delay when you're developing deals? when you're saying timing, like what is causing that? Two things actually entitlements and permitting has gotten better. Okay. Surprisingly in the last year, year and a half, but
I remember during COVID that was like an issue. Yes. But I think right now the biggest delay like, and there's, there's multiple that like, it's still hard to bring in laborers to the job sites. So the crews are, you got to convince your plumber and electrician. It's like, Hey, send more than four guys. We need more of an army here. So that's been consistently challenging, but ever since COVID building inspectors have been so difficult.
You call usually before you would call in for an inspection and the next day the inspector would show up. Now it's, it's sometimes they show up the next day. Sometimes they wait till let's say it's a Monday. say I'll come in on Friday and then they don't come in on Friday. So now you're just sitting there. can't really advance and you're losing weeks just waiting for building inspectors and don't let me get going on DWP because then you have a mafia. Yes. Completed building.
you're paying interest on the entire, on your entire loan amount, because the entire loan amount's been funded and you're, you're sitting empty. this no income, this exact, this happened, this exact scenario happened to us at try on. we were developing deals. started dabbling into development in LA pre COVID and we had a deal that was completely done and we just need to hook up to water and power and we were
waiting on DWP. were just going through the normal channels in the beginning. Then we're like, why is this taking so long? We're paying interest on our construction loan. We need to get it to lease out. We need to just connect. And then we hired a lobbyist for DWP just to get an appointment with DWP to show can provide housing for this city that needs housing. That shouldn't happen. That shouldn't happen. So that obviously not only kills returns, but it increases
The cost increases the, the timing for us to solve the housing shortage. Developers will say, I don't want to deal with this because it's so difficult to add new housing. And we're that's why a lot of us, a lot of my friends who are also developers, we're all waving the white flag. We're like, until things improve, we're just not going to develop right now. Now I know you're mentioning you were doing some single family stuff. Are you still doing any of that? Yeah, I'll dabble in single family. was pre.
Like from 2009 to 2012, where we did a lot of single family homes, I'll dabble here and there and do a home here and there, but the main focus is multifamily. Yeah. mean, single family has its own, you know, headwinds too, and it's not income producing. could be tough. You don't get the benefits of being a real estate investor, right? The tax treatments, the depreciation, the, yeah, you're charged ordinary income.
I remember leading up to this, you're saying, uh, you're, you're getting, you're pretty busy with the deal. Maybe you want to talk a little bit about what you, what you are busy with if it's not development. Yeah. So I think right now, as I mentioned, we're in the time of the cycle where it makes sense more to, to, to buy than build. So this is a, a, a fun deal. We're an escrow. We're closing at the end of the month. Um, so we built this building and sold it and sold it in 2021. So, and we didn't.
get a crazy price, but we got a good price. We made money or we hit our promote well, our investors made money. And now I'm buying that same exact deal from the, the, the, the seller I sold it to the buyer, I guess that I sold it to. So he's just selling it. was an opportunity zone deal. He was first on the market, like a new to the market and just
got tired of LA's bullshit on managing property. So was just tough managing for him. Yeah. And he used a third party and I think you have to manage in house in the city. I agree. Yeah. You have to do it in house. he had a third party management company and just expectations in reality. They just didn't care. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I'm excited. I'm buying it. It's funny. I'm buying it for around 30 % of what I sold it for just under 30%.
30 % below or 30 % of? % below. Okay. What I sold it for. And I'm even buying it below what I built it for back in the... Below replacement costs. Below replacement costs. And then it was less expensive than it is to build now. This was, I built it pre-COVID. Right. Basically I was wrapping up during COVID. So it was significantly less expensive to build then than it is now. So... Can you share metrics like door per door and... Yeah.
So I sold it right around 500 a door. I'm buying it for 340 a door 2021 vintage non rent control. just, just above a six cap. Wow. And my debt terms is a 6.1. So I'm getting positive leverage day one. There's not much upside, but I don't see any downside. Well, is that, is that, I agree with you. Is that six cap?
Um, like true in place, cause you were saying like the third party management, didn't manage well, so, yeah, yeah. So it's off my expense. Okay. Okay. So, um, it's, so I, since we self manage, we have a company ST living that we manage around 500 units across LA. We, we self manage our buildings. know our expenses pretty well and, and it's off our, our expenses and adjusted property taxes. Yeah. The property taxes are going to come down. Right.
or purchase price. So let me ask you, you know, getting into management and self managing, what do you think is the difference between some of these third party managers that are struggling versus yourself that self managing that you have an edge in managing in the city? I, I get calls here and there we selectively take on third party management clients. Uh, because I don't love the business, but I think it's a necessary business. If you're going to own an
properties in LA. And man, I see what these third party management companies charge and how inefficient they are. And I tell these owners, I'm like, I wish I had the capacity to take on your properties, I would save you so much money. Yeah. And operating expenses, because they just charge so much to the property. They the way they staff it, though, their vendors are so expensive. It's I just got I was looking at a
Uh, owner who was sending me his operating expenses and he was paying, um, think like five, 25, 550 a month for their landscaping. was a small property, a small building. And I called my vendor. I'm like, Hey, how much would you charge for landscaping? This property goes 150 to 175. Right. So, that's across the entire, like most of the operating. Right. They don't have an incentive to save on that. Right. don't.
So, so I just aren't aligned in that regard. And then if you, because we've done some, we've had some third party managers and we've managed ourselves. And you end up, if you do want to get the cost savings, you end up managing the manager. And so at that point it's like, all right, if I'm going to run it efficiently, I might as well run, manage it myself rather than just micro managing this third party manager. Yes. Yes. But now you're dealing with the people and hiring in California, which is,
can get a little complicated. But if you get the right people on your team, I think it's definitely the way to go. Yep. Yeah. So are you still looking just in LA? Are you looking at any other markets? Just in LA. This is where I live. This is where our property management company is, where they're a construction company. We built all of our buildings ourselves. So this is where just
I know my pen advantages, so I don't want to be going to other markets. I just want to be great at what I do and what I do is Southern California. I'll look at, at, at projects in Ventura, Orange County, San Diego, but that's it. I don't want to go to other markets. Let me tell you, we're in a lot of different markets, a lot of different States. we have, you know, office in Miami office in LA. I like LA right now.
It's funny enough, you know, think back to the basics. think there's a good supply demand story here. when you're comparing it to some of the Sunbelt markets, think there's a little bit of a COVID bounce back happening. Anecdotally I moved back, right? from Miami, but I do feel like taking a step aside, there was a lot of people who moved out of LA, out of California, capturing the growth in other markets, but
Now we're entering a time where there's a little bit of a economic just sluggishness, right? With the economy we're entering in, it's a little tight for a lot of people. And naturally I feel like there's, as a result, people are kind of bouncing back to where they were maybe pre COVID, maybe it's like help with families also in particularly people that are in the younger sector. Right? So I do think that the man kind of shifting back.
to what it was pre-COVID from household formations. And then also the fact that LA didn't have as crazy of a development boom as some of these other markets, relatively speaking, with the exception of a few sub-markets, right? I just like the supply-demand story here.
and I'll add to that. I, I agree with what you're saying. think we lost. everyone rips on LA. So easy. It's so easy. Anyone that lives here. Yeah, I agree. I go to conferences across the country and you're like, what are you doing investing in LA? Right. I agree. I'm bullish in LA. I think we lost around 200,000 people since COVID and I'm hopeful that they start coming back and you start, we, our rents have been flat.
I don't know for our portfolio, basically since 2020, they've been pretty flat. And, but then I see inland empire and I see Phoenix and I see other markets and their rents have been have gone. Obviously they're going down now, but they went up so much. I think during COVID when LA was shut down, it did not make sense to live in LA. Why are you going to pay this expensive rents? All the amenities are shut down. But now that LA's amenities are back,
I think it's a bargain to live here. You got a lot bang for your buck. And then especially why I think it makes sense to invest in LA. The cap rates that you're getting here are better, you're a buyer.
Then the cap rates that you're getting in the inland empire and in Phoenix, which makes no sense in Texas. makes no sense to me because it's so hard to build here as we were discussing. a six, you're buying a six cap for a newly built deal that you built formally. Right. Exactly. So I'm like, okay, but I think I'm getting a pretty solid deal, but let's say even you're buying five and a half caps from newer five and a quarter, five and a half. That's still like 50 bips wide of where maybe something in the, in IE is trading. Exactly. So it's like.
I'd rather live here. I think the fundamentals are much better here. There's no land. We have an ocean and everything's built out. Well, it's clear it's because of the mansion tax. It's because of ULA. That's, that's clear. think ULA has completely decimated the three to five year buyer in LA. which, you know, Trion we're one of them. We're a three to five year holder and it's hard to make your promote when your profit and your promote is going towards a transfer tax.
And there needs to be a correction. that obviously prices have corrected? Has it been in the full extent where the three to five year holders can come back? I don't, I don't think so. And that's why you're seeing the yields and less transaction activity. but if you're holding longer term, which is mostly our strategy. Exactly. think you're getting incredible asymmetric yields for that product in this type of market. Yes. And many of the markets in the country right now. Yes.
I completely agree. I see not much any of any downside. And I would always tell my friends, is LA going to be when during COVID? I'm like, is LA going to become the next Detroit? Is the Exodus going to continue? it won't be a Detroit. I I just went to Detroit three weeks ago just for an event. I'm like, LA will never. Yeah.
Detroit, I had a good diet, but it's not, it's not a great city. mean, there's, there's a reason it's expensive to live here, right? There's a reason people want to live here. and it has great fundamentals, despite all the political headwinds, things like that. Do you think there's going to be any turnaround with these, with the political headwinds? Do you think it's more of a pendulum that's swinging back or do you think this is as someone who's investing at light, this is what you're dealing with?
may even get worse, but Hey, this is just the risk of playing in this market. Yeah. I, we saw it in San Francisco soon. San Francisco turned around and I'm hoping that it happens to LA, but even if it doesn't happen, people still need a place to live. And yes, the city makes it a little harder on us to be owners and property managers, but don't you'll, you'll still be able to rent your, your unit.
I don't think it'll go full socialist. So I think we'll be fine. And it and it there's a barrier to entry. If you know if you understand the rent control laws and dealing with residents here versus another that dealing with evictions. So I even though it's a pain in the ass. I like the barrier to entry. I think every market has its own risk. And LA. It's this it's the it's the political risk, which is
maybe harder to quantify, but you know, we diversified in all these other different markets and we're finding that there's other types of risk with those markets. Supply insurance can be, you know, can run the gamut. So I think it's just important to acknowledge like, Hey, this is a market that has its risk, maybe harder to quantify, but for instance, in the deal you're buying a six cap for new construction in a strong market, I feel like
despite the political risk, you're getting a good return risk adjusted. Yeah. Agreed. I know you don't want to talk too much about co-living, but I just got to ask like what, what happened? Was it just a doomed idea from the start? People jumped on it. It was, it had a lot of hype. It was a, could have been a good affordable alternative to the housing crisis we had. think there was a lot of hype around it, but it flopped clearly.
We were some of the, we got super excited about co-living. We built two co-living buildings and at first it was actually pretty good. We were renting at, we built one in Korea town, East Hollywood. We're getting around 1600, 1650. A room. A room and we're building five rooms. You could just rent your own studio for that, no?
But it's an an older, like a 1920s studio. That was then. Now that same building we're getting 1350. Okay. So there was a glut of supply because a lot of people got excited for co-living and now there's, there's quite a big competition. And so we had to bring our rents down and the part that we knew that didn't, I don't think anyone really underwrote correctly is the occupancy. is much harder to keep a.
Our portfolio runs around a 95 % occupant, occupied, non co-living portfolio, non co-living, but the co-living portfolio, it's, it's, it's hard to get it continuously above a 90. Like our goal is to just be right always above 90. And because there's so much turnover, because people come, they're usually people that are new to LA, which they, they want a place and they want to build a community. So in theory, made a lot of sense that there's a lot of turnover.
And you have to keep, you have to keep it clean because there's five people sharing a kitchen in the living room. So the operating expenses is higher. So I, in theory, it still makes sense because you're renting it on a way higher rent per square foot, but the operating expense and the occupant and the vacancy rate on them is, is what kills kills the numbers. And there wasn't enough data or any type of, yeah.
Like there's also comps to support that. Like what it would run at the wrong time during COVID. Right. So when a lot of waiters, bartenders that moved to LA, they want to break into entertainment. That was a renter pool. And when COVID happened and everything got shut down, they stopped moving. So everyone had to lower their prices. Will it come back? Will we get up hot? Maybe, but I wouldn't.
I wouldn't do it. And also financing. It's tough to finance. I have a funny story. So I had a intern. This was before this was like when co-living was, when was that like 2018, 2019? Yeah. Around that time. It was, I had an intern. were looking at some co-living deals. It was one we were getting into development, trying to make sense of it. And I had an intern who was living in one of these and he was in one bedroom of like a five bedroom, one of the like that you were just talking about.
But the fifth bedroom and he became friends with the other like, like three others. So it was like four out of five or occupied. the fifth bedroom, they couldn't rent out. And the reason was these four would like kind of like gang up and try to like, make sure that room was vacant because they didn't want to have like the, like another person in there just to have like extra space. Like that's something that like you can't, it's like hard to underwrite or hard to, like that's something that just comes up in there that.
You don't have enough data points to extrapolate like how these deals run, what the turnover looks like, what are the, Factors that are beyond the numbers. And so like that was a, that was an interesting, know, psychological experiment. Yeah. And like, because we, manage our co-living buildings sometimes roommates fight and you, have to separate of it. You, and then some have
ESA dogs and some are allergic to dogs. So you're dealing with all these other. if traditional multifamilies hard to manage, like I can't even imagine how co-living is exactly. as a manager, it's a, it's a lot more intense to manage than traditional. Right.
Let me ask you a little bit about ed one. Yes. I would look first of all, for you to maybe give like a high level of what it is for the listeners who don't know and talk about, have you guys done like ed one deals or yeah. So I'll start.
you probably know that technicality is better than I do. But when mayor Bass came in, she started this ed one program, which at the time I'm like, this is a pretty solid program. And I think it has been successful. There's been a lot of permits that have been issued. And I think some people have gone vertical on them as though it is adding new supply to the market, more of an afford. So it's an affordable product. get
Basically unlimited density. get reduced parking, you reduce setbacks. So it makes a lot of, for a developer, you're building cheaper. You get, because you get a lot more units and you don't need the parking and parking is private. is the most expensive part of a construction. Subterranean too, right? Yeah. Yeah. You get to avoid all that. so in theory it made sense, but I, we actually bought,
a site in Hollywood to build 97 units, you do one. And I, at first I was really convinced by it, but then I started struggling with the same similar to co-living operationally without parking. Yeah. How do you rent those? So I think we ended up entitling it and selling it.
to, to, and it's, it went vertical. So, so at least we're getting 97 more units in Hollywood, but we're, I had it financed. had the equity, I had the debt, I was ready to go. And my investor kept asking me, Paul, what are we going to sell this for? And I couldn't give him an answer. And that's why we didn't do it because I was not convinced on the exit price because right now let's say new construction is selling between five and six in LA.
What does an affordable product because there is a covenant. You have to keep it at 80 % AMI an affordable product with no parking going to sell for. I didn't know. And I couldn't, I couldn't look at my partner in the eyes and say, we're going to sell for X even though it is significantly less expensive to build significantly. Just not, not enough data points, not enough data points. Have those data points come about at this point?
No, no. Okay. Yeah. And, just being a buyer myself in today's market, what would I pay for an ed one completed project? I don't know. Yeah. Similar to co-living to it's smaller, smaller units, right? Yeah. Just naturally from the density and then no parking. You're going to get naturally more turnover to the occupancy. I think for all the ed one developers, should not underwrite a 95 % occupancy. You're right. Right. 90 % Yeah.
And that kills, that kills. That's a lot. probably higher turnover. And then there's probably a cap rate premium, like a higher yield than a traditional new construction deal, just given the durability of those tenants and the income. Right. Yeah. And leasing velocity, like as a developer, one of the things we look at is like, okay, how long is it going to take us to lease up on a completely empty building? Yeah. And takes three months, six months, a year at most for a
for an ED1 deal. How long is that going to take? Now does ED1 when you sell it, do you get hit with ULA or is it waived? You do. You get hit with ULA unless you sell it to a nonprofit. Okay. But to your market rate to a, even though it's an affordable deal, if you're not a 501 C three, if you're not a nonprofit, then you're going to get hit with ULA. Yes. Wow. Okay. Yeah. So
To me, those were the main things on why we just couldn't get comfortable with doing ED1. So then you have to be like a seven and a half, right? If you're going to expand the exit cap, then a typical, I'm going back to your, uh, the beginning when you said you need to be, be at a seven for traditional multi pony be a seven and half because you're going to expand the cap rate. You're gonna, and your, and your rent roll is not going to come out to the same analyze traditional because of the turnover, the occupancy, all that. So that's, that's tough.
That's tough to flip out of. And there are some completed ED1 deals just sitting on the market. Yeah. No one wants to buy them. I, what kind of Capri do they, like, if, do know what the Cabra is? have no idea. But yeah, like if they offered you guys, would you guys buy a seven and a half cup? Edie one deal, a seven and a half is interesting for new construction, but it's yeah. The devil's in the details, right? The management of that, because every year you have to, uh, do the.
the, you might get some good financing from it though. No. Right. Like with like, given it's affordable, it might have some good, financing from the agencies. So like it could be a good cashflow play, right? Maybe not again, like you can't flip out of that. That's, that's going to be tough. So, yeah. Okay. But in theory, I like the program and if LA does become a little more transit friendly where not everyone needs a car, it might work. Yeah.
We're just not there yet. so Paul, mean, I guess maybe to wrap it up, as you said, you've waved the white flag, but maybe some advice for people that want to get into development, get into your shoes. What would be some advice to them besides
Don't do it right now. No, I think I think it does make sense to do it. If you're doing type five, two, two, three story buildings, I think SB nine makes a lot of sense right now. What's that? So Senate bill nine, where basically you could get to buy a house and add three to 4 units. is that the ADU Yeah, yeah. I think that makes sense to to get started to to start building a portfolio. I think it's it's
way faster to build than what we build. It's way less expensive to build. And, and you can do it in a, in a good neighborhood. And so I think someone get really getting started. It's like, buy it, like buy your home, do some units in the back, become a landlord, rent them out, understand the fundamentals. do think understanding operations and property management is probably one of the most important things that
everyone should should study. Yeah. It's I think it's so important to understand the expenses and the rents. So I think that makes sense. I think Senate Bill 1123 where you can build up to 10, 10 townhomes and for sale, I think that makes sense too. So and then so I would say explore those I think those those are new bills that came out that make a lot of sense in California right now or in LA.
And then, also if you can control a deal, whether it's a future development deal where you can get a long and long entitlement, long as grill in a good pocket where it would pencil and bring it to a developer and say, Hey, I want to be part of this deal. I'm bringing you a solid deal. Let me be part of the development team or the, if you own a piece, you're saying if you own a piece of land control or you control, can tie up a piece of land.
And then bring it to a developer and say, I want to be part of this deal. And, and more like a mentorship program and get part of the promote and part of the upside. I think that's one way to do it or, or an existing apartment building and existing apartment building with upside. If you can control it and bring it to an existing operator and say, Hey, I want to, I want to learn. And this is, bringing you something of value. Let's, let's, let's figure out a way to partner together. think that's good start to, know,
going back to the, the ADU play, what is it calling it? SB nine SB nine seven hill nine. I didn't know the like the formal term for it, but my family, we, we have like a, a 15 unit and we were thinking of doing some ADUs on it and it penciled really nicely. Then when we got into the weeds, we saw that we had to upgrade the main panel. Then we talked to the city and they said, well, if you're going to upgrade your main panel,
I might be getting this wrong, but like, you update the main panel, then you have to also upgrade the electrical for the street. Then if you're going to upgrade the electrical for the street, we are actually moving all the electrical underground. So you have to go trenching. then it's like, what am I paying for right now? Which is, not shutting down the plan because not every property is in that position. Some already have it upgraded and things. That was just a specific thing I into. were right in that, like once you start getting from.
close to 20 units, you have to upgrade to a higher panel. It just kills the deal. But if you're in a house and you're adding three, four units to the back, that will never happen to So it's different when it's like a single family or like a duplex that you're adding a unit. Exactly. Once you get to high density, 20 plus units with an elevator, that's when you got to upgrade. Yeah. Because obviously more electricity pumping through the building. Right. Right. Have you done any of those on like the smaller deals? No.
No, I've looked into them, but I think right now my time is better spent looking at. You scale. Yeah. You need scale. Yeah. All right. Well, Paul, I really appreciate you hopping on. Uh, it was, was a pleasure and, thanks for having me. Yeah. I know you're, you've been a fan of the pod. So to actually have you on and give your perspective, despite everyone ripping on LA for whatever reason, I actually think it's,
We're at the bottom and it's only going to go up. actually really feel like that. to be laughing at them at 20 and 27. Yes. When they're still going to be struggling with oversupply and we're going to be like, we don't have oversupply here in LA and we're going to start seeing rent growth. So I think we're going to be or 28. Everyone talks about Olympics 28. That's like when it's going to all come. So, uh, we'll see. I mean, we'll see. I'm excited to see what this next few years happen in LA. Yes. Well, appreciate it. Cause I have you on. Awesome.