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What’s the story you can’t stop telling? Fran and Bethany are here to help you write, sell, and launch it.
Literary agent Bethany Saltman and bookstore owner Fran Hauser—also both critically acclaimed authors—host Bookbound, the podcast for non-fiction writers who want to learn how to transform their ideas, expertise, and obsessions into successful books and publishing deals. Fran and Bethany interview accomplished authors who share the strategies and surprises behind their bookbound journeys. These how-I-did-it conversations will inspire listeners to claim their own “author-ity” mindset and turn the story they can’t stop telling into a book the world needs to read.
To connect with the hosts and more, go to www.bookboundpodcast.com/
[00:00:00] Kate McKean: I just tried hard and with an agent. I have an agent, and it didn't work. Until this one, uh, Write Through It, which is nonfiction and based on my newsletter, uh, Agents and Books. And part of me was like, oh, well maybe I just actually can't write fiction. Like maybe I'm not good at it. But I don't know. We will find out.
[00:00:20] Kate McKean: But I had built a platform with this book and I think that really, really helped. And I also think my previous novels were not that good. So a little bit of both, and then seven years later, I got a deal.
[00:00:31] Bethany Saltman: Hi, I'm Bethany Saltman, a literary agent and award-winning author.
[00:00:38] Fran Hauser: And I'm Fran Hauser, a bestselling author and independent bookstore owner.
[00:00:43] Fran Hauser: And this is the Bookbound podcast.
[00:00:46] Bethany Saltman: On this podcast, we talk to women writers about their nonfiction. Books, but instead of talking about what their book is about, we focus on the process of getting their book into the world.
[00:00:58] Fran Hauser: These “how I did it” conversations will help you pitch your big idea, write killer proposals, find the right agent and publisher, and live an amazing Bookbound life.
[00:01:12] Bethany Saltman: Welcome to the show everyone. I'm so excited to introduce you to our guest, Kate McKean. Kate is a literary agent in Brooklyn, New York. Her first book, Write Through It: An Insider's Guide to Publishing and The Creative Life was published by Simon Element and she writes the very popular Agents and Books newsletter on Substack.
[00:01:31] Bethany Saltman: This conversation was meta to say the least. We got to talk to Kate not only about her personal journey of becoming an author, but also about what it's like to move through the publishing process as someone who knows it inside and out, both the challenges and the joys. She also shared what she looks for in a query letter, and her advice on the editing process is pure gold.
[00:01:52] Bethany Saltman: We can't wait for you to listen. You're really in for a treat. Hey Kate, welcome to Bookbound. We are so excited to have this conversation with you. I'm so excited to be here too. Yay. So, wow, this is a gonna, this is gonna be a very meta conversation. We have two agents, three authors, a book about writing books.
[00:02:16] Bethany Saltman: So we're so excited to hear your story. You tell it a little bit at the beginning of your book while you tell it completely at the beginning of your book. But can you tell our listeners about how you, um, finally got to this book and your, your backstory as a writer and an agent?
[00:02:31] Kate McKean: Yeah, it was a long road and, and I love to tell this story to show writers that it's okay if it's a long road.
[00:02:38] Kate McKean: 'cause if someone on the inside. That takes seven years to get a book deal, then it's okay if you do too. I knew I wanted to be an agent really young when I was in my twenties, when I was working at a university press, and I also knew I wanted to be a writer. I mean, that was first and foremost before I even learned about being a literary agent.
[00:02:56] Kate McKean: I also knew I would never be a starving artist 'cause I just like. Chopping in food. So I was gonna be like, how can I have this career at the same time? And I, I just knew I was not gonna like, write one novel and strike it rich. Like I knew that was never gonna be my path because it's almost nobody's paths.
[00:03:13] Kate McKean: I built my career as a literary agent and didn't have any time to write. And when I finally had some time to write, I wrote like four or five books that never sold. Like a couple picture books, a couple novels, a middle grade novel, a YA novel, an adult novel. I just tried hard and with an agent. I have an agent and it didn't work.
[00:03:33] Kate McKean: Until this one, uh, Write Through It, which is nonfiction and based on my newsletter, uh, Agents and Books. And part of me was like, oh, well maybe I just actually can't write fiction. Like maybe I'm not good at it, but I don't know. We will find out. But I had built a platform with this book and I think that really, really helped.
[00:03:52] Kate McKean: And I also think my previous novels were not that good. So a little bit of both. And then seven years later, I got a deal.
[00:04:00] Bethany Saltman: Oh my gosh. I love that we really don't hear much about fiction because we really focus this book. This podcast is about nonfiction writers and their book journeys. I'd love to hear a little bit more about, you know, the differences between writing fiction and writing nonfiction.
[00:04:15] Bethany Saltman: And then, and then maybe you can tell us how you got your agent in the first place. Oh, sure. I
[00:04:21] Kate McKean: guess I actually approach writing fiction and nonfiction pretty similarly. I am a huge advocate of outlines. I love an outline. I write many outlines. I write reverse outlines to see what I actually wrote, uh, which was very helpful in editing, uh, Write Through It.
[00:04:37] Kate McKean: And I, I gotta know where I'm going. Like I, if I sit down at the, at my desk, the small amount of time I get to do it and I don't, I have to like come up with the whole thing. I won't write anything. So I spend a lot of time both in fiction and nonfiction, plotting, outlining. And then of course in fiction it's, it's fun.
[00:04:58] Kate McKean: 'cause if you kind of paint yourself in a corner, you could just make it up and to get yourself out of it. Oh, which is not true in nonfiction. And I think in both you. It's really key to have the reader in mind, a specific reader, and that was so easy with Write Through It because I knew I was talking to people who wanted to get published.
[00:05:16] Kate McKean: Yeah. And people who are confused about the process because it is just silly and confusing. Okay. Michael Bourret at Dystel, Goderich & Bourret is my agent. And I worked very briefly at Distal and Godrich, uh, before it was and Barrett, uh, a bajillion and a half years ago. So I had met Michael there and I wrote query letters just like everybody else.
[00:05:38] Kate McKean: And I first queried a picture book that didn't sell until seven years. Later. That's actually part of the seven year story is we sent out this picture book, it didn't sell, and then about six months after my nonfiction book deal, I talked to an editor and she's like, oh, you should send me that. And then she bought it and it comes out in May 26th.
[00:05:56] Kate McKean: So, yay. Oh my God. When it rains, it pours. I know. I was like, oh, okay. I hope that continues. Um, Aw, but I, I actually put the query letter that I wrote Michael, in the book, in Write Through It. I read it, yes. And, and, and I will tell you all the mistakes I made. In it because I made plenty. Yeah. Oh, I, I, you know, I, I explained the book I wanted to write.
[00:06:19] Kate McKean: It was then called Bright Lights, Big Kitty, which I maintain as the single best title in the world. And, um, it's so good. I am in love with it and I, uh, the book is not. Called that in the end. 'cause I, it changed so much in the revision process. It's called Pay Attention To Me. Mm-hmm. Great. About a cat who wants to be famous.
[00:06:38] Kate McKean: Thank you. And I, you know, talked about the book and then I spent like this huge paragraph talking about all the other books I wanted to write from board books to novels. And I was trying to show Michael that like I didn't only just wanna write picture books, which should have been a red flag even to me as a writer, being like, why am I making all these excuses?
[00:06:57] Kate McKean: And I am very proud of this picture book, and I do wanna write more, but I never envisioned myself as like a picture book author primarily. And I just went on and on and I was like, wow, I didn't need to do that. He probably skipped it and it's fine. Oh my God. I
[00:07:10] Fran Hauser: love that. I also, I love in the book, when you talk about making a big, messy list as you're approaching the whole, like, okay, finding an agent, te tell us about that.
[00:07:22] Kate McKean: I make these lists for like everything because I can get so caught up in the organization of it that it, it really is like perfect getting in the way of good. And, um, when you're researching an agent, there's so many different little threads of information that you're following. You're not just like literally looking at one database and having it spit out answers for you.
[00:07:43] Kate McKean: So you've got a, a mass that data somewhere, however you like it. My big messy lists are often on paper 'cause then I can make it even messier. Um, and, and then in the refinement it usually goes, uh, digital, it's, you know, Excel or Google Sheets or whatever. Um. And it just gives you the freedom to make mistakes and not be perfect so that you can learn more and make a more educated
[00:08:12] Bethany Saltman: decision.
[00:08:13] Bethany Saltman: I love it. Yeah, and going from the messy to the tidy is part of the process.
[00:08:17] Kate McKean: Yeah, yeah,
[00:08:18] Bethany Saltman: yeah.
[00:08:18] Fran Hauser: You have to start in the mess. You lay out kind of the approach to finding an agent, you know, and, and you say in the book, and you just mentioned now that there is no central. Database. Like, wouldn't that be amazing?
[00:08:30] Fran Hauser: Right? If there was this database that was organized where you can like search by genre and location and that doesn't exist. Um, but there are all of these, these other. Channels that you can use, whether it's Publisher's Marketplace, or whether it's looking at acknowledgements, you know, in the ba in the back of books.
[00:08:47] Fran Hauser: Can you just share a, a little bit about like what are the, the most common paths to, to finding an agent? There's a long list in the book, but just share it. Share a few.
[00:08:58] Kate McKean: Sure. You know, it usually starts with the author reaching out to the agent. Occasionally it can be the other way around. If you're putting yourself out there in the world, it's possible an agent will knock on your door.
[00:09:07] Kate McKean: I would not. Way by the phone. There's millions of writers and only a couple hundred agents, but I like to suggest to people go to publishersmarketplace.com where you can get even a temporary subscription to look at the deals section. And that's where agents like me will post the deals that we make that say, you know, so-and-so's book about this topic sold to this editor by this agent.
[00:09:31] Kate McKean: And you can search by genre and keyword and look at, look at a book from all different angles. Like maybe you're writing historical, maybe you're writing romance, so you could look. Under both of those terms, or you could be looking at fit, uh, business or current affairs and kind of look at both of those directions.
[00:09:46] Kate McKean: I also like QueryTracker. I use that as my submissions manager. So you people will query me through that portal. But you put agents, put their information up there so that you can find it, and there's definitely free options for that. And then enhanced extra special stuff if you subscribe. You don't have to spend money on this.
[00:10:05] Kate McKean: And also lots of libraries might have these subscriptions, so you might check that out. And then I think that the acknowledgements in the back of the book of a book, yes. Is one of the best places to look. Yeah. Because you, you've got that book and you're like, okay, well this business book is just like mine without stepping on its toes.
[00:10:23] Kate McKean: Who sold this? Yeah. And you just add those names to the big messy list. And then once you start seeing the same things repeated, that's when you, that's a key to be like, okay, I have, I'm covering the same ground again. I can then stop and then organize that list however you like, and then you go look at those agents' actual websites and the agency websites, because those should be the most up to date.
[00:10:45] Kate McKean: If they are not, it's the agent's fault, not yours. And you can actually say, oh, like, oh, you know, is this person closing to queries? Is this person on maternity leave? Is, did this person move to a new agency? Like you can get the most up-to-date information there.
[00:10:59] Bethany Saltman: Yeah. And it's great. The acknowledgements trick is so good because then you know.
[00:11:03] Bethany Saltman: And on your big messy list, you can write down the books that they have represented, which is very important in your query. You want people to know that you know who they are and why you're reaching out to them.
[00:11:17] Kate McKean: You know, it's funny. Um, I kind of don't care about that part as an agent. Oh, okay. And like, I think it's fine, you know, where if someone's like, oh, I saw that you represented this book.
[00:11:27] Kate McKean: I'm like, cool. Yeah, I know. I did. Cool. We are on the same page and like I know, you know, cool. I just assume if someone's emailing me, uh, that they, they figured out a, a reason why and if people are blanket querying, I can probably tell. Yeah. 'cause that book is not great. And it's like an easier be like, oh wait, I don't actually represent that genre.
[00:11:49] Fran Hauser: Goodbye.
[00:11:50] Kate McKean: So I don't, I don't put too much stock in the like, personalization part of a query unless you have something very specific to say, oh, I heard you mention this really important thing on the Bookbound podcast. Or I, I met you at a conference, or, you know that something that's very specific and true.
[00:12:09] Kate McKean: Usually if it's like you're fishing. Just to prove that you did your research. Like that's not important. But if they're like, oh wow, I independently read this book. I looked at the back, I saw your name. Oh my gosh, I loved it. Right? Like that is more meaningful than for sure. I see. You represent business books, whatever.
[00:12:26] Kate McKean: Yes, absolutely.
[00:12:27] Fran Hauser: What are the things that get you excited in a query letter?
[00:12:30] Kate McKean: When I forget, I'm reading a query letter and I'm just kind of sucked into the story and, and I don't think that that happens with like any kind of. Verbal, linguistic, you know, artistic tricks. I think it's just an interesting concept that will makes me go, oh, oh, what's that?
[00:12:47] Kate McKean: Wha Tell me more. Yeah. And then directness, you just get right to it. Please tell me what the book is about. Tell me the crux, tell me the, the thesis. Tell me the plot. Yeah. Tell me the heart and the rest of it I can fill in.
[00:13:07] Bethany Saltman: Yeah, I love it. You know, one of the things that I was thinking about when you were talking about fiction and then this book happening, um, you know, you had all those, those tries with the fiction, and then it's almost like you found your audience.
[00:13:20] Bethany Saltman: Yes, and we talk a lot about your muse, like who is the, and we talk about it as like one person that you're writing for, just to really get you specific and thinking about that person and writing to that person, and that will help you use more concrete language, et cetera. But even setting the muse exercise aside, you discovered through your Substack that you had an audience of people who was really ready for you, and then you wrote a book for them.
[00:13:47] Kate McKean: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it kind of came out in some of the teaching that I've done over the years. Like I've taught at NYU and I have done a bajillion webinars and I've done workshops at conferences and I've taught writing workshops. And I have an MFA, I mean, so I've, I was thinking about a person who would be sitting in my class.
[00:14:07] Kate McKean: Mm-hmm. A person who wants to be there, who has a goal. 'cause they had, they want something. They have a goal that they wanna learn. They're like, I need to learn about agents. I need to learn about queries. I need to learn about publishing. And they are hungry for that information. And that's the kind of person I think about.
[00:14:26] Kate McKean: I don't need to recruit anybody. I'm not gonna convince anybody to write a book because if you do not want to write a book, you should not write a book. It is not required, it's just homework. If, if you wanna have more homework, go right ahead, but I really want to think about that person who wants to be there and who wants the information, and I want to give it to them too.
[00:14:48] Kate McKean: Yeah, because I, I know it and I think everybody should know it, and I'm a nerd about publishing, and I think it's fun.
[00:14:57] Fran Hauser: Yeah. And that comes across. Yeah, it's, and it comes across. I love the title. Write Through It. Was that always the title?
[00:15:04] Kate McKean: No, it was not. So in the back of, of Write Through It is the book proposal that I sent out for the book.
[00:15:11] Kate McKean: And it has a, a very purposefully. Incendiary title and it is Forget The Cat, Save Yourself, which is a reference to Save the Cat. The screenwriting book, and forget was not the word I actually Yeah, I saw that. A different F word. Yeah, A different F word. And uh, that wasn't even the original title. It was, there was one, it was Ask An Agent There.
[00:15:33] Kate McKean: I just, I hadn't quite landed on the title. It might have been called Agents and Books at one point, just 'cause that was the newsletter. I hadn't quite landed on the title. And there was another title. Oh, when we announced the book, we all kind of brainstormed. 'cause we knew that forget the cat was not gonna do it, and that was fine.
[00:15:51] Kate McKean: We announced the book as write on and I was like, okay, cool. I'm fine with that. But as I was writing the book, write through, it came to me. Mm-hmm. And so when I turned it in, I had that, the title that was like, hi, sorry, change the title. Hope you like it. You know? And I was fully prepared for them. If they did not like it, we would, we would then come up with something everybody liked.
[00:16:11] Kate McKean: Yeah. And it would've be fun.
[00:16:13] Fran Hauser: You know what's, what's so interesting too? I love the part of the book. Well, there's so much in the book that I'm actually, I can see myself using. I'm working on my third book right now. My manuscript is due at the end of. August. Ooh fine. So the editing, you have this like whole part on editing and like the reverse outline and I literally like put a little post-it on this page where I'm gonna go through and like do everything that you said.
[00:16:39] Bethany Saltman: Hey there, Bookbound friends, if you're loving this interview, we've got something special for you. Our Read Like A Writer book club is back and we'd love. For you to join us. This isn't your typical book club. Each month we'll gather on Zoom to study one of the books we'll talk about here on the podcast.
[00:16:55] Bethany Saltman: Not just what we liked, but how it's written and why it works. In other words, we'll help you read like a writer, so you can write and publish your own book. It's $179 for. Five monthly sessions. You'll get the book list related podcast episodes, a simple reading guide, and then we'll meet to discuss. That's it.
[00:17:14] Bethany Saltman: We're so excited to dive in with you because we love books, we love you, and we really love doing this amazing work with other women like you. Sign up today at bookboundpodcast.com/club. We can't wait to see you there.
[00:17:32] Fran Hauser: One of the parts that was also really interesting to me was you got into why do we need a proposal for nonfiction? Or actually I should say, why can we get away with a proposal for nonfiction and for fiction, we have to write the whole thing. And I'd love for you to talk about that. That's not something we've really ever talked about here on, on the podcast.
[00:17:54] Fran Hauser: Oh yeah. It's
[00:17:54] Kate McKean: not exactly like equitable. And I think it has a lot to do with just practice like the, the, the industry standards, the way publishing has done it. Publishing is slow to move, but I also think that there are things inherent in nonfiction that you discover along the way. So if it's a reported book, you have to go out in the field and do the stuff and you don't know what's gonna happen yet.
[00:18:17] Kate McKean: And that is nice that the authors who work that way get to just write the 50 pages of the proposal and not 300 pages of the book. But also the reading experience of a novel is so different than the reading experience of nonfiction because you could read a nonfiction book and the ending often is a little fizzle out.
[00:18:38] Kate McKean: Mm-hmm. And you're like, cool. I still loved that book. That book was great. I learned so much. But if the end of a novel fizzles out, you just, you're like, I liked everything but the ending. And when you go to tell your friend to read that book. No, you're gonna be like, oh, it was great until the end. And then no one, no one will read it.
[00:18:54] Kate McKean: Right. AKA don't read it. Exactly. So you got it. The, I think the fiction editors and agents need to see you stick the landing.
[00:19:02] Bethany Saltman: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:03] Kate McKean: That makes
[00:19:04] Bethany Saltman: so much sense. So what happened? So you, you, like you said, you included the proposal in the book, which I encourage everybody to read. It's really interesting. So you got the deal and then what?
[00:19:17] Bethany Saltman: I had to write the book. Yes. Oh my God. What a paint. But how did that go and how was it, how did it go, you know, in relation to the proposal?
[00:19:27] Kate McKean: Oh, it went great. Honestly, I, I often say, so goes the proposal, goes the book. So when I am working with a client, if the proposal is pulling teeth, then the book will be pulling teeth because something isn't working and I.
[00:19:42] Kate McKean: Didn't have a hard time writing this proposal though. We went through many rounds of edits with my agent. 'cause that's just normal. It is very normal to go through several rounds of edits on the proposal with my agent, just because I needed other eyeballs on it. Yeah. And also I as an agent, you know, generally do book proposals the way I've always done them and I benefited from Michael's point of view on the way that he does them.
[00:20:05] Kate McKean: Yeah. And both of our ways are correct. Mm-hmm. But they are. Only additive to each other. I had written two sample chapters for the proposal, and then my editor, Stephanie Hitchcock, edited them. And said, okay, here's the stuff to think about as you're going forward. And they were so good. And her notes on that, like that in her final edit letter of the whole manuscript made me like really sit up and pay attention to the editorial letters I send my own clients.
[00:20:34] Kate McKean: I was like, oh wow, she's so nice. I think I need to be nicer. Interesting. So I, you know, I went off the outline and I'm a decently fast drafter, and so I had the full manuscript. Around Thanksgiving and I guess I, we sold it in like May, June of that year. I can't remember. That's pretty fast. And then was, yeah, I had adjusted, I had gone to a residency at the Spruce Inn in Catskills, New York.
[00:21:02] Kate McKean: Oh. Oh my gosh. I'm, I'm, I live in the Catskills. I'm there right now. Fantastic. It is the best place. I love the Spruce and Inn and I. Gotten a residency there to finish the book there, and so I finished it and then started editing it and the book wasn't due until the end of January and I had planned it out to finish a couple months ahead so that I could then edit it myself.
[00:21:24] Kate McKean: And so that's what I did over the next couple months. And turned it in at the end of January.
[00:21:29] Fran Hauser: Okay. Can I just say though, that is so smart building in the time to edit it yourself? I did not do that. I don't think most people do. I'm literally like, I, I still have two chapters to write and I have to get this done by the end of August and it, it will happen.
[00:21:43] Fran Hauser: But literally like I wanna be able to have that time to go back. Yeah. You know? And this is the first draft and it will go through editing, but that is so smart. I just wanna make sure that everybody really heard that the building in the time to edit it yourself before you turn it in.
[00:21:59] Kate McKean: And I don't think it's necessarily required, and I don't think that like.
[00:22:03] Kate McKean: Editor would've been mad at me if I had not done it, but I knew that the way that I draft is there's just lots of tk, tk, tk, like, which means to come like, uh, fill it in later. Stuff that I didn't want to turn in that way. There was a couple things that I was like, oh wait, I'm still waiting to interview this person, or blah, blah, blah.
[00:22:23] Kate McKean: And that was fine because I knew it was gonna go through another, at least two rounds of edits. But I, I write enough just a weekly in my newsletter and have been writing for so long that I know that I have to put it away for a little bit of time to forget what I wrote. Yeah, so that I can read it a little bit fresh.
[00:22:42] Kate McKean: Oh, such a good point. And just be like, oh, that doesn't make any sense. Yeah. Or like, hi, you have switched tenses. You know, whatever the thing is. Yeah, yeah,
[00:22:52] Bethany Saltman: yeah. Oh, that's so smart. So the book comes out, and then how has the marketing been
[00:22:57] Kate McKean: going? Great. I mean, it's really. Been fun to do, especially things like this because I just kind of get to nerd out about both writing and publishing.
[00:23:06] Kate McKean: Yeah, it's very convenient that I wrote this book about this thing that I really like. It really is, I suggest people do that, but that it is also my day job to talk about and, uh, I've done a bunches of podcasts. I've done a bunch of writing. I did a, a, a few author events in person and it's been. Super fun.
[00:23:25] Kate McKean: It's my, my client, Maddie Lipsky, she just had her book come out yesterday. It's called Simplicity. It's a really wonderful graphic novel is Bonkers and wonderful. And she said that promoting a book is like having 10 birthday parties in a row. And I was like, yeah, that, that's it. That's what it feels like.
[00:23:44] Kate McKean: It's so
[00:23:44] Fran Hauser: true. And you're feeling the love at every one of those parties. Yeah.
[00:23:48] Kate McKean: Yeah. And it's a little bit stressful. I did not really concentrate. On there being this huge push where it's just like I'm gonna explode upon on the market and be saturated and be on TV and radio and all this stuff for the two weeks after the book kind came out.
[00:24:04] Kate McKean: I, I think this will have a long tail. Sure. And just be, it'll come to readers when they need it, when, you know, when they're not done with their book yet, they don't need this book. And I plan to, uh, into the fall into, into next year, go to MFA programs and talk to writers and things like that.
[00:24:20] Bethany Saltman: Oh, I
[00:24:20] Kate McKean: love that.
[00:24:21] Kate McKean: I love that. Yeah. I'm excited. That's really
[00:24:23] Fran Hauser: smart.
[00:24:23] Bethany Saltman: Yeah. So, so talk to us about Substack, because this is something everyone is talking about and writing in and about. Mm-hmm. And you are really crushing it there. In fact, that's the genesis of this book. Yeah. So tell us about Substack and any advice you have for
[00:24:40] Kate McKean: authors.
[00:24:42] Kate McKean: Yeah. Before Substack came onto the scene, I was. Considering doing something that was, uh, with then calling like an online magazine and with a different company. And I had already been thinking about, okay, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna do interviews and I'm gonna do like, what does a option clause mean? And all that kind of stuff.
[00:24:58] Kate McKean: And then Substack came out and I started Agents and Books in 2019 and I was like, oh wait, this is just really easy and it is direct to eyeballs and it's a very simple platform. And I just took to it. I was like, oh, this is great. And I do think that there are. Other, uh, newsletter platforms that are just as good.
[00:25:17] Kate McKean: There's Beehiiv, there's Ghost, and I think, and Buttondown. There's a, there's a lot of ways you can tailor the experience to what you want and need. And I just liked writing twice a week about publishing and I felt very free doing it. 'cause it, it felt impermanent even though you can go read them all.
[00:25:37] Kate McKean: And I had a whole lot of fun and I had a very clear. Goal, which was to tell people about publishing to like interesting, convey knowledge to people the best I could. So it was out there, and I think that that has been key to my success is that I have a lane and I'm in it and I can do whatever I want, so I don't feel hemmed in.
[00:26:03] Kate McKean: Yeah. Readers know what they're gonna get from me. And I think that's the biggest stumbling block to people who are like, well, I have to start a newsletter. That's what everybody's doing these days. And then they're like, here's random thoughts from my brain, and like, nobody cares. And that's okay. Like, why would anybody care about your random thoughts?
[00:26:20] Kate McKean: Do you care about your random
[00:26:21] Fran Hauser: thoughts? Kate, I'm curious, are you, so on substack, you know, there's the, the newsletter posts that you're doing every other week, but then there's like the social part. Are you active on the social, like the notes, the notes
[00:26:34] Kate McKean: and all that jazz? Yeah. I only recently became a little active on notes, mainly because.
[00:26:40] Kate McKean: Other algorithmic news feeds like Blue Sky and I mean I'm off Twitter completely, that are kind of depressing. Uh, or not kind of are incredibly depressing 'cause they're about what's going on in the horrors of the world outside. So I found that the new, the notes feed was just really kind of, it's mostly talking about substack, which is also kind of annoying in a different way.
[00:26:59] Kate McKean: I
[00:27:00] Bethany Saltman: know, that's what I'm trying to a clue. Talk about meta. Yeah. It's
[00:27:03] Kate McKean: like, wow. Yeah, so I, I do dip in there more than I have in the last five years, but, uh, it's fine. It's just an, it's just another feed and we don't need another feed. Yeah. Yeah. I. It's fine.
[00:27:18] Fran Hauser: Yeah. It's, but it's nice to know that you don't have to Yeah.
[00:27:20] Fran Hauser: Like your, your posts are doing fine, like from an engagement perspective. Mm-hmm. Even without the posting on the notes.
[00:27:27] Kate McKean: Yeah. That's good. There, there's plenty of discussion about substack in their politics. There hasn't been great news about them this week. They, they apparently sent a push notification that platform a Nazi.
[00:27:39] Kate McKean: Substack that are on there. It, it's not great. And I think a lot of people want to put their money where their ethics are. And I, I, I think about this every single day about whether I'm gonna stay on the platform, but I don't think that the notes part is integral to my success. And I'm not sure that's true for everybody.
[00:28:00] Kate McKean: And how has Substack changed since the book came out? Definitely had, because I had so much to talk about, like, oh, I'm here. And, and I was in the news quote unquote, for, especially in literary circles. I did see a bump, but not, it didn't bust through the stratosphere. Take me to a next, the next level. Uh, it was a bump.
[00:28:18] Kate McKean: And I find that substack iss pretty cyclical. Mm-hmm. So it goes up, but it goes down and up and down. I think, I mean it certainly helped, but it's given me a lot of stuff to talk about. I bet there's a decent percentage of my readership that's like, okay, can you go back to talking about the stuff that we can use and not adjust your book?
[00:28:34] Kate McKean: Thanks, uh, but no one's emailed me that yet. Do you have a
[00:28:37] Fran Hauser: sense of what's moved the needle in book sales? Like when you look at all the different marketing, it's so hard to know, right? No, absolutely not. Nothing.
[00:28:46] Kate McKean: I can't tell nothing. I have no idea, and I don't think it's the things that people think it is.
[00:28:52] Kate McKean: I don't think. Uh, the only thing that does it is word of mouth and you can't tell when that's gonna happen. Yeah, it's so true. It's so true. True.
[00:29:00] Bethany Saltman: Oh my gosh. So for our listeners who are working on their books, what advice do
[00:29:06] Kate McKean: you have? Keep going. If you are discouraged because it's hard or scary, then that's fine.
[00:29:12] Kate McKean: You can listen to those feelings. It's normal. Everybody feels that way. And you do not have to write a book. You don't. No one's waiting for it, which is sometimes depressing for people to hear, especially if it's something very personal, like a memoir or something like that. But nobody is waiting for your book, and that's normal too.
[00:29:31] Kate McKean: And if that makes you mad that something is standing in your way, then that's a really good sign. You should keep working. But if it makes you want to give up, you can just give up. Like you can, like that's an option. And if the giving up doesn't make you mad. Or energized, then that's the sign. And that's kind of what I felt when, um, I wrote an adult novel in 2020 and it didn't sell.
[00:30:02] Kate McKean: And I really had a, like a dark night of the soul just saying like, I'm, I might never achieve this goal for myself that I want, that I know so much about and that I, it just might not happen because I am not promised anything and nobody is, and I don't have magic publishing beams to grow myself a book deal.
[00:30:21] Kate McKean: And that made me mad. I was like, Uhuh, no, I'm, I'm gonna do this. And then threw myself into other projects and this project and that is the energy I took from that I could have given up and Okay, great. I'll move on to something else.
[00:30:37] Bethany Saltman: Yeah, I love that. I always ask people is giving up an option? 'cause if it is, you should take it.
[00:30:42] Bethany Saltman: Yeah. And if it's not, then you have no choice. Yeah, then you have to write through it. Write Through It through it.
[00:30:49] Kate McKean: And it's also okay if it's not this book.
[00:30:52] Bethany Saltman: Yeah. That's so important. I love that
[00:30:55] Kate McKean: there could be another book. And I, and that's hard, I think, especially in memoir, um, when you're like, but I only had the one thing happen to me.
[00:31:01] Kate McKean: You know, or whatever. But like, you just don't know it yet. Maybe I'm not saying hopefully something else bad happens to you, but like you, you may have other ideas, other ways to approach this. Yeah,
[00:31:13] Bethany Saltman: I wrote three proposals before my, my fourth one sold. It's a lot of work. But I had no choice. There was no way I was gonna give up.
[00:31:22] Bethany Saltman: I, I was like, incapable. Yep. So that's just the way
[00:31:26] Fran Hauser: it is sometimes. Oh my gosh. I love it. Well, this book is amazing and we'll include the link to buy it in the show notes. And really for our listeners, this is the perfect book. It is so good. I mean, I am learning so much going through it. I'm, I'm already starting to use some stuff in here, which is.
[00:31:45] Fran Hauser: So amazing, but we can't recommend it enough. Buy the book. Follow Kate on Substack. Yeah. Any other way to stay connected with you Instagram? Yeah.
[00:31:55] Kate McKean: I'm on Instagram @kate_mckean and I'm on BlueSky at Kate McKean. It's pretty easy to find me. There's only perfect. There's only one Kate McKean except for like this doctor in Scotland or something.
[00:32:06] Kate McKean: Hi. Hi, Kate other Kate McKean. I hope you're well.
[00:32:10] Fran Hauser: Oh my gosh, this was amazing. Thank you so, so much. So, so inspiring.
[00:32:15] Kate McKean: Thank you.
[00:32:16] Fran Hauser: Thanks, Kate. Bye bye.
[00:32:21] Fran Hauser: We hope you enjoyed this episode. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcast and consider leading a rating or review to help other writers find us. And don't forget to check out our Read Like A Writer book club and our downloadable Bookbound proposal guide, both designed to support you as you bring your book idea to life.
[00:32:40] Fran Hauser: You can also find us on Instagram @bookbound_podcast. Happy writing.