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Conversations with business founders, leaders and experts, examining the changing landscape of leadership, purpose, business growth, Scaling Up, resilience and change with business leaders and owners in mind. We cover a mix of topics designed to ignite (or re-ignite) your spark one conversation at a time.
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SPARKS BY IGNIUM — EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Guest: Dana Theus | Executive Coach & Leadership Consultant, InPower Coaching
Topic: The Secret to Getting Further, Faster (and Having More Fun While You're Doing It)
Host: Phil Rose
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CHAPTER MARKERS
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Use these timestamps to navigate the episode in Transistor, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts.
00:00 Welcome & Introduction — Dana Theus, Executive Coach at InPower Coaching
00:40 What Brought Dana into Coaching — From Marketing Consultant to Coach
01:58 Dana's Career Journey — Change Management, Branding, and the Shift to Coaching
02:43 Two Types of Entrepreneur — Contractor vs. Business Builder
04:44 The Dramatically Different Journeys of Scaling vs. Selling Your Time
05:50 Phil's 22-Year Journey — From Contracting to Building a Business
06:24 Scale-Up Businesses and Building Value Beyond Yourself
07:15 Scaling Human Systems — Dana's Sweet Spot
08:25 The Threshold Point — When Founders Have to Get a New Job
09:56 Founder Syndrome — The Identity Shift Nobody Warns You About
11:07 Ego, External Success Definitions, and Draining Your Energy
12:41 Do Men and Women Think Differently About Building a Business?
13:27 Different Success Frameworks — Achievement vs. Caring for Others
15:30 Energy Burdens and Why Women Have Less Entrepreneurial Bandwidth
17:24 The Leisure Time Gap — Men Have Up to 5x More Than Women
20:14 Why Women Don't 'Dump Things' — The Story in Their Heads
22:17 Old Stories Meeting a New Economy — Social Shifts and Confusion
24:39 The Inner Work of Leadership — Confronting the Stories We Tell Ourselves
26:45 How People Wake Up to the Need for Coaching
28:33 The Inner Game — The Investment You Need Isn't Outside You, It's Inside
31:13 The Best Coachees — Ownership, Accountability, and Calling Out Your Own BS
32:34 Compassion as a Core Coaching Ingredient — The Hero's Journey
34:22 Purpose and Authenticity — The Energy Multipliers
36:21 What Truly Lights You Up? — Dana's Practical Guide to Purpose
39:29 Translating Your Purpose Ball of Energy into the Business
40:43 Imposter Syndrome Reframed — You're Not an Imposter, You're in a Stretch Zone
43:01 Making the Stretch Zone Your New Comfort Zone
45:43 Why Coaches Accelerate Your Growth — Less Stumbling, More Guided Progress
48:11 Remember You Are Mortal — The King and the Jester
48:38 Advice to 11-Year-Old Dana — The Book She Never Published
50:20 No Mentors in Grad School — The MBA Dana Should Have Done
51:28 Parenting and Mentorship — Making Sure Kids Hear the Right Things More
53:01 The Importance of Mentorship — Opening Doors You Didn't Know Existed
54:47 Dana's Closing Advice — Let Go of Beliefs That No Longer Serve You
56:06 You'll Get Farther Faster with Someone Outside Prodding You
56:10 Where to Find Dana — InPower Coaching
57:13 Phil's Outro — Purpose, Authenticity, and Stretching Yourself
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KEY MOMENTS — EPISODE SUMMARY
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A curated summary of the most important insights from this conversation.
Two Types of Entrepreneur — Contractor vs. Business Builder (02:43)
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Dana Theus draws one of the clearest distinctions in entrepreneurship: the difference between externalising value (building a scalable business) and internalising value (selling your time as a contractor). She argues that too many entrepreneurs begin without clarity on which model they're building, which leads to confusion about hours, pricing, and growth. You'll recognise yourself immediately in one of these two archetypes — and Dana explains why knowing the difference fundamentally changes the journey ahead.
Founder Syndrome — The Identity Shift Nobody Warns You About (09:56)
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The threshold point when a founder has to stop doing the work they love and start running the business is, as Dana describes it, getting a completely new job. Founder syndrome, she explains, is what happens when leaders don't make that shift — when the person who invented the idea can't become the person who needs to lead it. It's not a character flaw, it's an identity shift, and it requires a deliberate decision: do I want this new job, or do I hire someone who does? This moment offers a frank, empathetic frame for one of the most common growth blockers in entrepreneurship.
The Leisure Time Gap — Men Have Up to 5x More Than Women (17:24)
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Dana shares a striking statistic: men tend to have up to five times more leisure time in their week than women. What makes this so relevant to entrepreneurship is that leisure time is where big ideas are born. Dana connects the dots between care burden, mental depletion, and the reduced capacity many women have for the kind of relaxed, expansive thinking that generates entrepreneurial breakthroughs. This isn't a complaint — it's a structural observation with practical implications for how we support women who are building businesses.
The Inner Game — The Investment Isn't Outside You, It's Inside You (28:33)
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Dana articulates the core case for coaching with unusual clarity: you can't buy your way past a ceiling that's inside you. More consultants, more systems, more AI — none of it addresses the real limiting factor, which is the leader themselves. When someone finally reaches the point of recognising that the investment they need to make isn't external, that's when they become coachable. Dana describes the two profiles she sees most: those who've hit a wall and those who can see where they want to go but don't know how to get there. Both need the same thing — someone to help them find the best version of themselves.
Calling Out Your Own BS — What the Best Coachees Have in Common (31:13)
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The best coachees don't expect their coach to do the work — they retain full ownership and accountability for their own change. Dana shares a favourite testimonial from a COO who came to her saying, I want someone to call me on my own BS. She knew she was great, but she also knew there were blind spots she couldn't see. That kind of self-awareness and appetite for honest challenge is, Dana argues, the hallmark of someone who will get exceptional results from coaching. The caveat: those blind spots must be approached with compassion, because the stories we tell ourselves exist for a reason.
What Truly Lights You Up? — Dana's Practical Guide to Finding Your Purpose (36:21)
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When asked for the dummy's guide to purpose, Dana gives a remarkably clear answer: ask yourself what truly lights you up, then trace it back to the earliest moment you can remember feeling that way. Go forward through your life and identify three or four moments where that feeling was present — there's a theme in those moments, and that theme is your purpose. Dana's point is that every entrepreneur is already driven by purpose; what coaching helps you do is zero in on it with enough precision that you gain the power to say no to things that don't serve it.
Imposter Syndrome Reframed — You're Not an Imposter, You're in a Stretch Zone (40:43)
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Dana offers a genuinely fresh take on imposter syndrome. Coined in the 90s to describe a specific class of high-achieving women who felt their success was undeserved, the concept has since expanded to describe something universal: the self-doubt that arises when we enter territory we've never navigated before. Dana's preferred reframe is to treat that discomfort not as a flaw but as a reliable signal that you're in a stretch zone. The goal isn't to fake it till you make it — it's to make it. And the trick is to identify the one specific thing you're actually stretching on, master it, and move to the next stretch.
Advice to 11-Year-Old Dana — The Book She Never Published (48:38)
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Dana's answer to the question of what advice she'd give her younger self is one of the most moving moments in the conversation. At 11, she wrote a book her teacher said should be published. Her father said no — she was too young. The story she internalised was: your creative mind has no value. It took her until her forties to recognise that wasn't true. The lesson she draws for parents, mentors, and coaches is simple: kids will always hear the wrong thing sometimes. Our job is to make sure they hear the right thing more.
The Importance of Mentorship — Opening Doors You Didn't Know Existed (53:01)
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Looking back on graduating with no mentors to guide her direction, Dana reflects on what good mentorship actually does: it gives people a stronger, wider vision of themselves and the opportunities available to them. Without that outside perspective, most of us stumble into opportunities and only recognise them in hindsight. Dana's call to action is for everyone — at every age — to mentor others, because the gift of having someone illuminate your strengths and point you toward doors you didn't even know existed is one of the most powerful accelerants of human development.
Beliefs Are Enabling Until They're Not — Dana's Closing Message (54:47)
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Dana's closing advice to entrepreneurs at every stage is to stay in a constant state of curiosity about the beliefs they're carrying. Beliefs are enabling — until they become no longer relevant to the life you're living. The practice she recommends is simple: keep asking what belief is it time to let go of? Replace it with something more empowering before it becomes a ceiling. This applies to individuals and to businesses: the leader who gets out of their own way is the leader whose business can grow. Her parting line — you'll get farther faster with somebody outside you prodding you — is the distilled case for coaching in nine words.
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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
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Lightly edited for readability. Filler words and false starts removed.
Phil Rose:
Welcome back to the Sparks for Growth podcast. I am Phil Rose, the host, and today I'm delighted to be welcoming Dana Theus to the conversation. Dana and I talked a month or so back to talk about some of the content that we believed we could bring out of this. And I know this conversation is going to be exciting because some of the things we talked about revolve around empowering women, driving entrepreneurship, and actually the benefit of coaching in business. Dana is an executive coach and leadership consultant at InPower Coaching. And from my perspective, there's lots of conversation here. So we're going to struggle to limit it to 45 minutes, but let's see how we go. Dana, welcome to the Sparks for Growth podcast.
Dana Theus:
Thank you, I'm so happy to be here.
Phil Rose:
Thank you. Now, I hear about executive coaching. I've been coaching for a long time and so have you. I wonder if we can just start in terms of what was the thing that brought you into coaching right at the beginning? Why did you end up where you are today?
Dana Theus:
Well, I had a long career in marketing and then I went out on my own to be a brand and strategic marketing consultant — branding, strategic planning, et cetera. And I was talking to all these executives about their brand and I ended up doing more coaching to them because, particularly in an entrepreneurial setting, their brand and their business is kind of an extension of who they are. And so I would hear a lot about both why the company was struggling, but also where they were personally with their identity and their attachment to the company. And I just found myself much more interested in that story and wanting to help them as human beings. And I was kind of done with marketing. So I just said, I'm going to be a coach.
Phil Rose:
I love that. And it's interesting, I think, about human beings, because everyone says, you know, an executive coach or a business coach — I say I coach human beings. And at the end of the day, we're all the same. We all have the same issues and problems and worries and imposter syndrome issues. I love that. So bringing in to coach those individuals — you've obviously spent some time doing this. When did you get into it? How long have you been doing this?
Dana Theus:
I've been doing coaching full time for at least a decade. I've been coaching longer than that. As I said, I came through change management consulting. So I was doing strategic branding, change management, again working with executives at their business strategy level, and then transitioned into coaching from there.
Phil Rose:
Yeah, I love that. And I think that's interesting, because a lot of people do end up transitioning into the world of coaching at some stage in their career, because they see the benefit of what it brings and how that transforms people — whether they're a manager or a leader in a company, or they step out and do it into those companies. That's the key to it. So one of the things we talked about is this word entrepreneur and understanding that people worry about what entrepreneur means, whether you're a business person. Just describe to me your view on the type of business people you coach. Who are they?
Dana Theus:
Well, let me say this about entrepreneurship, because we talked about this. And to me, this is one of the core distinctions in terms of how I help people — but also, I think the journey into entrepreneurship faces you with some version of this question, which is a function of motivation but also vision. So what kind of entrepreneur do you want to be? Do you want to be the kind that builds a business that's standalone? It's a thing that you are creating that has value in the world that you can scale and maybe sell and it's apart from you at some level — versus it's an extension of who you are. And this is very tied up in your identity and your vision for yourself. In general, that distinction leads to business people who are running a business and can almost sell anything — I could be a dry cleaner, I could be a real estate person, I could build widgets and go into technology — versus I am a contractor, it's me that people are hiring. They're paying for my time. And those are two extremes: the externalisation of value or the internalisation of value. And there's a lot of things in between. But what I noticed, for myself first and then with the people I support, is that the business model — contractor versus building a business — is so dramatically different. And at the beginning, some people aren't really clear. They struggle to figure out what the business model is and how do I support myself. How many hours do I need to work? Am I billing for my time or am I externalising the value and investing my time upfront to create value that will scale? So when I think about entrepreneurship, one of the things I talk to entrepreneurs early on about is which direction are you going and why? Because those are dramatically different journeys, personally and for the business.
Phil Rose:
Yeah, and it's really interesting. And I think I was about to say it's interesting because lots of entrepreneurs, lots of people call themselves entrepreneurs now. I've been doing what I do for 22 years, and when I set up I didn't call myself an entrepreneur. I was in that effectively contracting market, selling my services as a consultant, moving into the coaching world but working through others. And it's only in the last 14 to 15 years that I've been building a business. In the beginning it was about how can I find people to hire me and put into clients. It fitted what I needed at that time, and it's only latterly that I thought, actually what I'm trying to do is build a business because that's about value. And I think the key bit that I hear, and it'll be interesting to get your view on this, is when you can see how you can build value above and beyond yourself. It's not just about you anymore — it's about you and others, and therefore you're selling the value as opposed to selling your time.
Dana Theus:
Yes, exactly. And so my journey has been different than yours in the sense that I started out contracting. I did play in a couple of different business models and I realised that even though I was starting to make money that way, I was not enjoying the work I was doing as much. And so for a variety of reasons I said, you know what, I make a good living selling my time and I enjoy it so much more personally, and the value I bring to people — and so I kind of went back, and I've been very happy ever since.
Phil Rose:
That's interesting. And one of the things we want to talk about is this gender issue in terms of entrepreneurs and bringing energy to it. But before we delve into that, I think it's really interesting how you've gone through that journey as well. And I think a lot of people listening to this — I work typically with scale-up businesses now, and I say scale-up is a business that's gone beyond the startup phase. They're into that next phase of growth and they're looking to scale for whatever that means. And that to me means creating value in the business so that there's something that's saleable at the end potentially. And I always say to people, growing the value of a business, even if you don't want to sell it, makes it a better place to work. Because if you've got value, you've got processes, you've got systems, you've got people around you — but it's above and beyond me. It's about a bigger team and doing something bigger for society and the community around you as well.
Dana Theus:
Yeah, and you know what's funny — I totally believe everything you're saying. When I was back in corporate, I was all about scaling. I was in technology companies, all about scaling. Now that I'm in leadership consulting, I'm about scaling human systems more — I love that. But when it came to me and my business, the work I had to do to scale was just less interesting to me. So actually I think I bring more value to people who are scaling their businesses, because I'm not trying to scale my business. I'm really zeroed in on them. And I know that does give me the opportunity to scale my business, but I don't care. I've made that choice. I went there and I turned back.
Phil Rose:
Yeah, and you know, I love that — there's a bit of freedom in that, because you've made that choice, you've made that decision. And interestingly, if you've now made that choice, you can give your all to it. It's only going to be a one-person business, but you're going to live a real value for the client you work with. I see a number of people struggling with this decision about how to grow to the next stage. I used to joke that most entrepreneurs could get up to 80,000 — whatever 80,000 meant — and then they might take on other people and suddenly find themselves dropping back to 50,000 or 40,000 take-home. So they'd say, I've tried employing people and it didn't work, I'm going back to do it on my own. Because there's a real market there that as an individual you can get to without too much stress. You have minimal processes but there's less people to manage. And that's why they drop back to the good old days when it was just me and my rucksack going in to do what I do best.
Dana Theus:
Well, and if you think about it, that turning point means you get a new job. So to a point, you're doing the work you know how to do and love — that's why you're doing it, you're getting paid for it, it all feels good. You may have some other contractors or people with you, but you're all in the team. And then you get to that threshold point, and you have to stop and say, I quit that job, and now I have a new job, which is running this place. And that means I have to think about systems. I need to think about financing. I need to think about scaling. And by the way, I have to think about the human systems — the tribe gets bigger, I've got all these personalities and I've got to develop people. And that's a whole different job. And a lot of founders — this is kind of the definition of founder syndrome — they don't say, I'm going to become the best leader of my company I can be, which is fundamentally different than the person who invented the idea. I don't blame people for not wanting to do that. What I think people struggle with is: do I want that other job? And if I don't, how do I partner or hire the people who can build that scale for me? I still have to let it go — it still has to get bigger than me. And that's a really hard set of decisions. It's a fundamental identity shift.
Phil Rose:
That's interesting, isn't it? Because that word identity comes in a lot in our work as coaches, where you're dealing with individuals' identity or their own identity. But I think there's something there about the ego as well. Because some people choose to work on their own and that's what they're really good at. Other people have this ego saying, hey, you've got to build a bigger business, you've got to be out there bigger than that, because that's what entrepreneurs do. And then they're struggling because actually that's not what they want. So there's this internal tension I often see between wanting to do what they do really well and building a team — because they feel that's what they should be doing. They see it on TikTok, on Instagram, these people saying, build a business. But actually there's a key thing here: you can build a great business as a one-person business. Just let your ego go and do what you do really well.
Dana Theus:
Yeah, and that idea of ego is interesting because it all comes down to what your definition of success is. The people who are stuck in that place have two definitions of success. They have the one that brings them joy with what they do, and they have the one that's been given to them from external sources saying this is what you should do. And if those two things are out of alignment — and this is true of everybody, not just entrepreneurs, but for entrepreneurs that is the success of your business. And if you're in conflict around that, it just drains your energy from the work you're doing.
Phil Rose:
Yeah, I think there's a really interesting thing there. And I think for a lot of these one-person businesses, entrepreneurial businesses, there's that differentiation between them and the corporate person who's worked through whatever corporate means. They're in a bigger business, they're employed, they get a salary at the end of the month, and they can leave at some stage. I see this a lot of my friends who graduated with me in 1993 — we've all gone into a world of careers. I've chosen one route but a number have chosen that corporate route, and they've got a pension fund and they can retire between 55 and 65. And there's a nag in my mind about when are you going to stop? And actually I'm thinking I don't need to stop because I do what I do. There's that conundrum I think a lot of people face as well.
Phil Rose:
Do you see a difference in the way men and women think about building a portfolio career or a solo business or an entrepreneurial business?
Dana Theus:
Yes and no. Men and women have different expectations placed on them in our cultures — let's start from there. And I think those expectations also shape how we show up in life and in work. For purposes of gross generalisation — we can all find exceptions to everything I'm about to say — men are given a picture of success that's very much about achievement and wealth and accomplishment and being in charge. And women are given a picture of success that's about making sure that their life is under control and supported, and that the people around them are supported — whether they're people working for them, or children, or parents. Those two frameworks of what makes a successful woman or man end up creating different challenges for men and women that they respond to differently. And I think one of the biggest distinctions — again, these are gross generalisations — when it comes to people in business, men understandably say the value of my business that I build is a reflection on me. When I can sell my business for a big multiple, or show year-over-year growth, or take a lot of money out of it, that's how I know I'm successful. And for women, some can step into that story and they often want to. But there's another script in their head going, yes I do want that, but I also want to know that everybody in my life and in my employee base is cared for in the process. I'm not saying men don't say that — I know many men who care very much for all the people that work with them — but I think the willingness of the man and the woman in those two situations to sacrifice people for value is different. And there are other elements: the burdens that women bring in terms of their time and energy into work also leave women with fewer energetic resources to solve any business problem, because they've got more care work at home. A lot of women don't opt into that big business story because they just don't have the energy for it, and they don't perceive that they want to make that trade-off between value and people.
Phil Rose:
Yeah, it is that trade-off, isn't it? There's a choice that comes in and people are making it either consciously or unconsciously. And as you say, it's a gross generalisation, because I know there's lots of men who also want to get that balance in place. I admire all the women I work with because they have to put a lot more effort in — they've got more to carry on the energetic side at home as well. In our business, there are lots of female-led businesses we work with, either as one-person businesses or as business owners. And from a male perspective, we have to see the women running the business but acknowledge all the other things they're probably having to carry as well.
Dana Theus:
Yeah, and to me, there's one stat that's really the most interesting when it comes to entrepreneurship and running your own business. Men tend to have up to five times more leisure time in their week than women. And if you think about that — yes, men and women both are doing things at home and in life to take care of things. But leisure time is a really interesting way of looking not just at how human beings can self-actualise in a creative way, but as an entrepreneur, where do you get your best ideas? Where do you get that big idea? Well, you're doing it when you're on the golf course or you're relaxing — you have a relaxed mind. And women just have less time and energy in that sort of creative mental state. So even when they are entrepreneurially engaged, they're mentally drained in a way that inhibits them from that kind of big-idea time. Which isn't to say they don't have big ideas — they just really struggle to find the space to be in that area more than men.
Phil Rose:
Yeah, that's a fascinating fact — men having five times more leisure time. Because I think the best ideas come when you're not thinking about the business, when you're doing something else. And I'd never considered the fact that different people have different amounts of that leisure space. I'm part of an organisation called Strategic Coach run by Dan Sullivan, and I'm in London tomorrow. And if I think about my Strategic Coach group of 30 to 40, there's probably only one woman. And that's an interesting thing — we're taking time out to think away from the business. But I've never thought about the fact that actually, maybe we make time to do that because we can just dump everything else and not worry about it. Maybe I need to ask the group: why are the men there and why aren't the women joining us?
Dana Theus:
And honestly, I would not be surprised if the women who aren't there would say — they wouldn't say it this way, but — I have a story in my head that if I just dump things, A, all hell will break loose and B, I will look terrible because it will reflect on me that I let everything fall. Whereas a lot of the men are like, no, this is part of my job to think big. Some of this goes back to how we raise girls and boys. How little boys and little girls are encouraged to spend their time and to prepare for things and what they can get away with. Little boys can fall down and you say, pick yourself back up, you can do it. And little girls fall down and you say, be careful, be safe.
Phil Rose:
Yeah, it's interesting language. I had a long conversation with my father last night — he's 80 now, a product of the 1940s and 50s in terms of his upbringing. We were talking about my mother who's got severe dementia now, and about her leaving school aged 15 because her father told her she needed to. She finished school on a Friday and started work on a Monday. And you think about that now — that was the early 1960s. He said, oh, that's just the way it was. And I do think that's something about being told, don't think big, you've just got to do what you're told. Whereas now I come forward to my daughters who are 23 and 20. Probably because I've done what I do for the last 22 years, it's about encouraging them to grow big ideas and be different. But I also want them to have a life. So I can see that balance being a conflict at some stage for them.
Dana Theus:
Well, we have these historical stories about what success looks like — not just for men and women, but different classes of people, different backgrounds, religion. Each one comes with gender influences. Plus we just have a different economy today. Today women have to work and they have more choices. There are fewer children being born, fewer marriages happening. There's a lot of social shift, and these old stories about what men and women should be come into this new reality and just get mixed in a new way. And it's very confusing, because the environment has changed but those original stories are changing much more slowly.
Phil Rose:
Yeah, and as coaches, we will always deal with the beliefs and values that people are holding and those being passed down generations. There's something around having the ability to go and try something and step out of the corporate mainstream to do your own thing — whether that's a portfolio career or you're running an entrepreneurial business with intention to scale. I would love to see more female CEOs scaling businesses. I think there's something that we as a society need to look at — how do we encourage people to have that mindset that you can have both? How do we help female entrepreneurs think, okay, what can I do to systemise my business so I don't have to do it all? What can I do to bring in other people? How can we bring female entrepreneurs and female CEOs together to tell the story about how they do it?
Dana Theus:
And you know, it's interesting — the vast majority of my private clients are female leaders. My corporate business is much more mixed, but my private clients are almost all female entrepreneurs and senior leaders in organisations. And here's what I think is interesting: the work of leadership is constantly challenging yourself to look at what is the story I'm telling myself and what part of it is getting in my way that I can shift and change. A lot of that is what is my definition of success and is it what I really want, is it achievable? So if you're in that state of inquiry as a leader of any gender, you will stumble over these stories. I think I'm the linchpin. I can't do this or I can do that. And it doesn't matter what gender you are — you're in that space of redefining yourself constantly. Which is why I think leadership and entrepreneurship are so powerful: they give us this daily feedback mechanism to become our best selves if we want to. And for women specifically — I know women who have built great systems, they have great people, they rely on them, and they still have the story in their head that they're the one, they're indispensable, they can't step out. They still have to retell that story even though they've built the systems to support them. And I know men who don't really want to make that sacrifice between people and success, but they have to step aside from the story that says if I don't sell my business for a gigantic multiple, I'm a failure. So we all have these stories. And when we're in that state of inquiry to find and confront and shift our stories, that's when we are successful.
Phil Rose:
So how do people wake up to the need for coaching? I first engaged a coach in around 1996. Coaching wasn't really a thing in business then, but I was lucky — I was working at Rolls-Royce and they employed some consultants from AT Kearney. One of the ladies on that group, Sally, trained me to be a coach in 1996. She took me aside and gave me some coaching, and I was only 26 at the time. The question on my mind is how do we encourage more people to open up to the idea of coaching — to recognise they have a choice and that you need somebody else to ask you questions and hold you accountable? Because it's all very well doing it yourself, but it's like having a personal trainer — you'd do better if you have the personal trainer rather than saying I can just do it on my own. So how do we find more people who want to be coached?
Dana Theus:
I look at the people who come to me and there are two or three different profiles. One is they just hit a wall — they're exhausted, they're burned out, they realise whatever they're doing isn't working and they need to get to the next step. The other is they're not there yet, but they can look forward and see where they want to be and they're like, I don't know how to get there and I need guidance. And I really think that when it comes to coaching, when you understand that either way it's the inner game that you have to shift — you can't go buy more consultants to build more systems and get more AI — the investment you need to make isn't outside yourself, it's inside yourself. When you begin to realise that you're the limiting factor, that's when you go, if I could do it, I would have done it. I need someone outside me who can bring out this inner shift, these inner resources I'm not using as well as I could. And that's when I need an expert who knows how to reach that inside me and help me make the inner shift. Those are the people that come to me ready for a coach — they're like, I need someone to help me find the best me to make this shift.
Phil Rose:
Yeah, I love that. I need someone to help me find the best me. And I always think of Eric Schmidt, who said the best investment he ever had was hiring a coach. And there's a great book called Billion Dollar Coach about the coach who coached the guys at Google and Apple in the early days. He was simply a person who coached individuals. And as you said, some people hit a brick wall and they realise they need help. Others have a vision of where they want to go and they don't know how to get there, so they're looking for help in advance of any problems. As coaches we can do that — how can I speed up my journey? How can I get there faster? I coach a lot of women as well. A lot of my clients have been or are female CEOs or female leaders. One of my best coachees — if that's the right word — I've coached her since 2016. She's a CEO. Every year we re-contract to do more coaching. So for ten years I've worked with her. And she's trying to grow what she does, she's passionate about what she does, and I think it's amazing.
Dana Theus:
And I think there's a difference — it is asking for help, but it's not expecting the external help to do the work. Because this is the other thing about coaching: the best coachees retain the ownership and accountability of their own change, and they invest in external resources that are able to stimulate that change, bring knowledge to it, challenge them. One of the best testimonials I have is from a COO who said, you know what I love about Dana is she calls me on my own BS. And when she came to me, that's what she said — I want someone to call me on my own BS because I realised I've built this story that I'm great, and I am great. But there's something I'm not getting right. I need someone to just call me on the pieces of what I'm doing that I'm not seeing and help me address those blind spots. Now we also have to approach them with compassion because we have the stories we have for reasons — we have the defences we have because we're vulnerable. So the good coach is going to call you on your BS, and they're going to recognise when they're in delicate territory and handle that with compassion and strength. Because that's what we as leaders are doing — navigating that kind of tricky territory. And when we come out the other side, it's like the hero's journey: we go in all brave, then we kind of get broken down, but then we get built back up, and now we're ready to take on the world from a new place — a new mindset, a new heart set. And that's really exciting.
Phil Rose:
Yeah, step into that dark cave in terms of the hero's journey to find out what's beyond — that's the key thing. And interesting you said about heart and mind. Because a lot of people might intellectually think they need a coach, but actually it's in embodying it with their heart. That's the transformation. Years ago I bought a book called The Inner Game of Tennis by Tim Gallwey. And he's also written The Inner Game of Golf and various other things. But it's about that mental side — and also that heart side, because you've got to believe it. Business owners, CEOs, entrepreneurs — they have to believe their value. And therefore, to bring in a coach is how can I increase my value as an individual? Because what coaches do is increase someone's value — they build them into a better asset, but they make them better human beings in the same way as well.
Dana Theus:
Yeah, and along with heart and mind, the other dimensions I end up playing with a lot are purpose and authenticity. Because when we get to the point where we don't have any more hours to give, we're giving everything we can give and we need to make a shift of some kind — the thing that guides you through that is a clear understanding of success. But in terms of what's the motivation for you to get over that hump — that comes from your purpose. The purpose that connects with you in your heart really deeply, and your mind. And then being able to do it in a way that's authentic to you, not necessarily authentic to what everybody tells you you should be doing — because that's where you're putting energy you can't afford. The place you buy back the energy is by finding out: here's what I'm doing and it's not authentic to me. Let me let that go and cleave to what's authentic to me. Let me let go of success definitions that just aren't central to my purpose. And when you interpret those things in the context of someone building a business, that's when they begin to see: this is the business I really want to build because it's so meaningful to me and therefore I must let pieces of it go. Because achieving that goal in the world is so important to me that I'm willing to change and let pieces of myself shift — and let go of things I've held onto that I don't have the energy for — so that it can grow beyond me and do it in a way that feels authentic, that isn't me failing because I couldn't do it all. So you put purpose and authenticity in the mix and it really gives people a lot of things they can do to get to that next level in a completely new way they didn't even envision.
Phil Rose:
Yeah, and it's interesting pondering on those words — purpose and authenticity. I say strongly that I love working with businesses that have a purpose above and beyond making money. Because if you want to build a scaled business and engage teams, you need to have a business purpose that people really want to come to work for. Otherwise they just come to work for the money. But I'm then thinking — when you're talking about purpose, how as a coach do you go about bringing that subject up with individuals? Because they may not know about it. What's the dummy's guide to purpose in 30 seconds?
Dana Theus:
I actually have an answer. So the answer is the answer to this question: What truly lights you up? And some people will hear that question and they will know the answer. And some people won't, but they'll think, I want to know the answer to that question. And the way to find it — the main one — is just go back to the first time you can remember being lit up and excited. You might've been like seven. I was 11. You know, I remember it very clearly. But then you go forward in time through your whole life and note just those moments where you were lit up — what was happening. You may only identify three or four that really stick with you, but in that three or four is a theme. And pulling that theme out and then looking at how does that theme express itself in what I do today in the business that I'm running — it's there, I promise you it's there. And no one who's an entrepreneur is not already driven by purpose, but zeroing in on it and getting really precise about it gives you the power to start saying no to things that are just becoming unnecessary for you, or the business, or both. So the question is, what lights you up? And that will unfurl a whole bunch of meaning and take you places.
Phil Rose:
Yeah, I love that. And if I combine that with authenticity — what lights you up and having your authentic true self to say, this is what lights me up, truly. Because often we say things that we think other people might want to hear. So it's trying to say, okay, what's the real thing behind that? What's my real passion? Because I remember years ago talking about the Japanese philosophy of Ikigai — one of the things there is what are you truly passionate about? Because if you can then make money from that and bring your real power to the world, that's the key. That passion is the thing that lit you up. So whatever it was when you were aged 11 and then you see that thing popping up over time — connecting back to that is a really inspirational thing.
Dana Theus:
It is. And going back to coaching and why we need coaches — a lot of people will get to the point where they'll say, well, what lights me up is irrelevant to what I'm trying to do in the world, or if I really admit what lights me up I'll tell people and they'll think I'm bananas. And the point is, what lights you up, and that centring in on power — which a coach can help you do — gives you a ball of energy. How you spend that energy, how you communicate that energy, how that translates into the vision of your business and the pitch you're giving to investors and the motivation you're giving to your employees — that's a different process. And the ball of energy that's your purpose, the words you use may not make it into that process. It has to morph and change and be relevant to employees and investors and customers. But when you, the leader, can take that ball of energy that is your purpose and translate it without losing the energy that it gives you — that's when you bring your real power into your professional life and self.
Phil Rose:
Yeah, and I love that. There's a whole lot of things there, aren't there. It's interpreting it so you can make sure the audience that you're talking to understands it and being true to yourself as well. And this will lead me on to the next question we talked about before — imposter syndrome. Because I think people will notice if you're not on purpose, if you're trying to give your own BS to other people. They're going to sense that you're not on purpose. So I wonder how do we help people with that? Because there is something there — I'm on purpose, I'm doing what I want to be doing, but I'm just not sure if it's right. There's that age-old word, imposter syndrome, which we hear bandied around a lot. People stepping out to do one thing but feeling they're on the edge and they're going to get found out — but actually they're on purpose. So how do we help people with that balance between purpose and imposter syndrome?
Dana Theus:
Well, imposter syndrome was coined, I think, in the 90s, specifically about a class of female leaders that were studied. They found these women had all the external definitions of success — they were making money, they'd gotten promotions, they were accomplishing things. And yet when you talked to them as human beings, they felt like this was just luck. Pretty soon everybody would realise they weren't really that valuable. That juxtaposition between their external accomplishments and their internal dialogue was dubbed imposter syndrome. And there's a whole gender-related story around that. But it's gotten picked up by men because it turns out human beings have self-doubt. It's seeded in all of us as children because we aren't capable as children and we're told that on a constant basis. And we have to grow into a definition of ourself that's less doubtful. But I think in the professional world that we work and coach in, what really is happening is we keep getting to thresholds where we get into a stretch zone where we really are imposters. We have never done what we're trying to do. We ran a company up to 15 people and now we want to grow to 50 — we've never done that. We are faking it. And that brings levels of self-doubt that are new to us. So I prefer, when we feel imposterish, to say: wait a minute, I am over my head, but I'm in a stretch zone. I have an opportunity to really learn and change and become the leader and the person that's necessary to get this next thing done. And I'm going to figure it out. I've always figured it out. I wouldn't be here if I hadn't. I'm going to make some mistakes and I'm going to fake it till I make it. But my goal is not to fake it — my goal is to make it and get into that mindset. And then guess what — you succeed. And if you're growing as a person and as a business, you will keep coming to that place. And that's a great place to be.
Phil Rose:
Yeah. So it's literally inch by inch moving yourself forwards into that stretch zone. If I'm on purpose, I'm in my business, I'm driving it forwards, and I'll find points where I'm being stretched. And I use that term imposter syndrome, but actually what it is is I'm just out of my comfort zone. And as you said, we've done this for 20, 30, 40, 50 years before, so there's no reason why we can't keep doing it and stretching ourselves.
Dana Theus:
Exactly. And what you want to do is make your stretch zone your new comfort zone, and then go into a new stretch zone and make that your new comfort zone. And part of the trick there is identifying: what am I really stretching? Let me focus on figuring that out, become confident in the thing that's the real stretch for me, as opposed to being so overwhelmed that I feel all stretched in every direction. Zero it down into one thing you can master and move on. Then you'll move on to the next thing.
Phil Rose:
Yeah. And I think there's something there — coming back to my Strategic Coach workshop, there'll be relatively few women in there relative to men. Maybe there's something there, that as coaches we have a duty to help people recognise that this so-called imposter syndrome is just normal — it's not imposter syndrome, it's just stretching yourself to progress and develop. You've just done this all your life, so you can do more of it. And one of those things might be: if you're on purpose as a business owner, how can you build that into something bigger? There's always a way of doing it, even if you've never done it before. And that's a great story that we can start educating people on.
Dana Theus:
Yeah, exactly. I think going back to why coaches — coaches bring perspective, and some of that is because of our knowledge and experience, and some of it is just because we ask really good questions to help people get perspective. Because one of the things that's really hard to do when you're in your stretch zone, especially if you've never done it before — your perspective is not really fine-tuned and you're going to learn by doing. But wouldn't it be nice if you had somebody there who could say, okay, this part of your perspective is right on, this part I'm not so sure about — let's play with that. It's just more efficient. It gets you through faster. You're still going to make mistakes, but you're there to process the mistakes more quickly with somebody who can help you. I think of it as accelerating the stumbling around to do a little less stumbling and a little more guided growth, and then move on to the next challenge more quickly.
Phil Rose:
Yeah, I love that. I think that's where that combination of coaching and mentoring comes in — we can give pure guidance, we can help them. We may not have been there in exactly their shoes before, but we've got some view on what the world might look like because we've seen it in different angles. And interesting — from a coaching stretch point of view, we've got to hold them accountable, as you were saying about the female CEO making that comment about you calling her on her BS. Because actually you don't hear it sometimes. I was interviewing Jeff Woods, an AI-driven leader yesterday, and he said, you can't read the label when you're in the bottle. And I think there's something in that — if you're surrounded by something, you just can't see what's going on and you get accustomed to doing your own thing.
Dana Theus:
Well, as leaders, powerful people don't see the world the way the people who are following them do. We tend to think that because we're in charge and we're successful, everything we did got us here, so obviously what we've been doing is right. And we just get into the habit of being a little less open. It doesn't matter how open we think we are — it's just a human thing. And so the king that brings in the jester, the leader that brings in the coach — it's kind of like, keep me honest here, tap on my ego a little bit and let me remember that I don't know it all.
Phil Rose:
Yeah, that's interesting. There's a great phrase which I often hear from Rowan Halliday about the emperors in Rome having someone standing beside them whispering, remember you are mortal. And I think that's the same thing — keep yourself authentic, keep yourself true. And we forget those things sometimes. So if you could go back in time — you've been doing what you do for a decade and more, and you've been in business for a long time. If you could go back and give the young Dana some advice that would accelerate your growth or change your direction, what would that advice be? That young 11-year-old when you had that first spark?
Dana Theus:
You know, that's always the hardest question because we are who we've become because of the challenges we had. There's really very little of my life I would want to do differently. But there were two points where I would have liked to have given myself advice. One is when I was 11, I wanted to be a writer. I wrote a book at 11. My teacher said it was great and I should get it published. And my father said, no, you're too young. And I was 11 — there was no internet, I didn't know what getting published meant. But the story I interpreted was: your creative mind has no value. I'm not creative. It took me until I was in my forties to say, I am creative actually. So I would have gone back to my 11-year-old self and said, this isn't a great time for you to publish a book, but that was really good writing. You should keep writing — because when you're 18 or 19, you should totally try to get published because you're good. I would have liked somebody to just say, you're good. You've got possibility. You've got potential. And then the other thing is when I was graduating college and going into grad school — looking back on it, I had no mentors. Nobody gave me any advice. I picked a grad programme I felt I could accomplish. I should have gotten an MBA, because I spent the next 15 years of my life effectively getting an MBA in work. And at the end I went, I'm actually pretty good at this business thing. But in 1986 I said, MBAs — that's too much maths, too much finance, I don't even understand what that is. And then I got into real grad school and realised I'm good at spreadsheets. I like spreadsheets. Shoot, I should have gotten an MBA.
Phil Rose:
I think there's two really interesting things in that. It's really interesting that that 11-year-old Dana was told you're not going to get published, and you internalised that as I'm not creative — and then recognising you could have been, but it took you another 30-odd years to see it. And there are a lot of kids out there today being told those same things. And there are also a lot of big kids in their 30s, 40s and 50s who are still thinking like that because dad or mum or a teacher said something to them and they're still believing it's true.
Dana Theus:
Well, kids are always going to hear the wrong thing because kids are kids. Our job is to make sure they hear the right thing more. So yes, they can hear I'm not creative, but it's up to us to tell them, actually you are — this is you being creative when you sit down and build that house with blocks. You did it differently than your brother, and that's being creative. When we don't give those positive words to kids, that's when the negative ones stick. So it's up to us to give them the positive ones that are true and show them evidence in their life that they are these things and they can believe in themselves. And that's what we don't do enough.
Phil Rose:
I totally agree. And I think even in business now, we need to do more of that. As coaches, our job is to encourage people to step up and notice those things — when they're feeling like imposters, saying it's just stretching yourself, it's just another brick you're building. So we don't trap those 11-year-old authors into thinking they weren't good enough, creative enough, bold enough, old enough. There's something there. And then coming back to the MBA — there's that little bird on your shoulder telling you, you're not good at maths, don't do this thing. But actually, looking back with hindsight — amazing.
Dana Theus:
Yeah. And I think really that's the importance of mentorship — because I didn't have anybody giving me alternative views of myself or the world or opportunity. And I think when I look at people I coach who have had good mentors through life, they just have a much stronger vision of themselves and the opportunities that are available to them. Because other people were helping them interpret the world through the lens of: here's where there are opportunities, here's where you have skills and abilities and talents that could leverage those opportunities. And so the rest of us, without that mentoring, we just stumble into the opportunities and get into our forties and fifties and go, now I could mentor me — but why didn't someone tell me sooner? That's why it's so important for all of us to mentor everybody, at every age, about what we see their strengths are and where those might open doors for them in the world.
Phil Rose:
Yeah, I love that. And it comes back to that word authenticity and purpose — because actually what we can do as coaches is help people recognise what their authentic self is and also recognise what their purpose needs to be. So Dana, we said we'd talk for 45 minutes and we've almost talked for an hour. I make no apologies — it's been a fascinating conversation. If there was one message you would want to give as a final closing to those female and male entrepreneurs, portfolio career people, people moving into a bigger role — what's the piece of advice from a coach or mentor you would give? The one thing someone could practically take away and do something about right now.
Dana Theus:
I think it really comes down to — at every stage of growth and every transition, and even when we're not feeling like we're growing — to always be asking ourselves: what is the story I have in my head that I'm ready to let go of? I need to outgrow it. Because we have this idea of limiting beliefs. The thing is, beliefs are enabling until they become no longer relevant to the life we're living. And no matter how old we are or what our challenge is, we're always growing. And if we're always aware of: what's that belief that it's just time to go? If it's not holding me back now, it will be holding me back soon. And I need to replace it with a more enabling and more empowering belief. If we're all in that space of curiosity about that question, we'll never stop growing, we'll never stop getting better. And if you're running a business, that's one of the ways you enable your business to grow too — by getting out of your own way to grow yourself to the next step.
Phil Rose:
Yeah, and the word I heard there was: just be curious and keep asking how can I expand? And that's what coaches can do — they can hold you accountable, they can hold you curious. But actually you can do it yourself if you really want to. It's always better to have a coach alongside you to give you that bit of guidance when you need to.
Dana Theus:
You'll get farther faster with somebody outside you prodding you.
Phil Rose:
Yeah, I love that. Dana, thank you. Obviously you're in the US. We'll put your details in the show notes here, but where would people find you if they wanted to, having listened to this?
Dana Theus:
So I'm on LinkedIn at Dana Theus. And my website is inpowercoaching.com — I-N-P-O-W-E-R coaching dot com — because I'm really about that internal game and getting people set up for mastery of their internal game. So inpowercoaching.com is where I live.
Phil Rose:
Love that. Brilliant, thank you. And that's Dana Theus — D-A-N-A T-H-E-U-S — if you're wondering about the spelling. So we'll put that in the show notes as well. But thank you, Dana. It's been a lovely conversation. We should do it again. I appreciate you just having that conversation with me. We had a loose agenda and we've gone off track and come back on track lots of times. So thank you. I really appreciate it. Look forward to doing it again soon.
Dana Theus:
We did great. Take care, thank you so much.
Phil Rose:
Thanks, Dana.
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HOST OUTRO
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Phil Rose closing remarks, recorded separately.
Phil Rose:
What did you take away from this conversation with Dana Theus? I took away the word purpose, authenticity, and actually it's not imposter syndrome — it's about stretching yourself. Because we've all been there before. We've all done things to stretch ourselves. And we bundle it with this word imposter syndrome. But actually what it's really about is just pushing ourselves forwards. So find what you're passionate about. Find the thing that lit you up when you were a young person and look at how you can bring that to the world today, because that's your purpose. That's the thing that brings you alive. And then look for ways you can make money from that if that's what's needed. And if you don't need to make money from it, just go and do it because that's the key thing. But often we need to make money because that's how we work. And maybe there's other things you can do with that power, that passion. And if you're a female leader, look at what you can do to let go of things. How can you step into that world and drive your business in the way you want to? Because often as a man I can see one way, but actually as a woman I can see other things. So how do we balance that? How do we help ourselves look at what needs to be done to help us develop our business and actually bring our true authentic self to the world? I always say I cannot hold you to account as a coach, but what we can do is offer you questions. If you do want coaching, remember that through Ignium we work with people like you who want to develop their business. We're scale-up coaches, we're leadership development experts, and we are coaches. We ask questions. We have a great team of people. We work with lots of organisations. We've just been working with a very large PE firm who've got a purpose above and beyond making money. We've worked with all their CEOs, helping them understand how they can step up and scale their individual businesses. So if that's you, give us a call. If you're just an individual business owner, give us a call. If you're a female business owner, give us a call. If you're a male business owner, give us a call. If you're young and aspiring to build a business, give us a call. We can talk about these things. You can find us at igniumconsult.com or you can find me on LinkedIn at Phil Rose — and there are two Phil Roses out there, so make sure you're looking for the Phil Rose from Ignium. Or you can check out Kerry Jarred — K-E-R-R-Y J-A-R-R-E-D — business partner at Ignium.
Phil Rose:
Look forward to working with you. And remember to pass this message on to others who you think will benefit from it, because at the end of the day we can all benefit when we share this. We've been running the Sparks by Ignium podcast for six years and we've just rebranded it to be Sparks for Growth. And that's the key — it's about helping you grow. We want to rekindle your passion, we want to ignite your passion, we want to help you grow. That's what we do. Please give us a call, please pass it on, share the love. Have a great day.
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SEO & DISCOVERABILITY
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For use in episode pages, blog posts, show notes, and publishing platforms.
Keywords
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Dana Theus
InPower Coaching
Sparks for Growth podcast
Sparks by Ignium podcast
Phil Rose podcast
executive coaching
leadership development
feminine leadership
scaling a business
founder's syndrome
imposter syndrome
limiting beliefs
coaching ROI
mentorship
business growth
AI-Optimised Semantic Keywords
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- internal game mastery for business leaders
- overcoming limiting beliefs in entrepreneurship
- feminine power in leadership and business
- coaching as a business growth catalyst
- reframing imposter syndrome as a stretch zone signal
- founder identity and the cost of not letting go
- self-compassion in high-performance leadership
- gendered definitions of success and how they shape business decisions
- mentorship and blind spot awareness
- purpose-led entrepreneurship
- shifting internal narratives for business growth
- the leisure time gap and women entrepreneurs
Long-Tail Keywords (Great for Blog Posts, Episode Pages, and Social)
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- how to stop being your own limiting factor in business
- what is founder's syndrome and how to overcome it
- why women entrepreneurs have less time to think big
- how coaching helps you scale your business faster
- how to find your purpose as a business owner
- is imposter syndrome actually just stretching yourself
- how to get out of your own way as a business owner
- why beliefs that once served you can become your biggest obstacle
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END OF TRANSCRIPT DOCUMENT
Sparks by Ignium Podcast | sparksbyignium.transistor.fm
Host: Phil Rose | igniumconsult.com
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