APIs You Won't Hate


 

Creators and Guests

Host
Mike Bifulco
Cofounder and host of APIs You Won't Hate. Blogs at https://mikebifulco.com Into 🚴‍♀️, espresso ☕, looking after 🌍. ex @Stripe @Google @Microsoft
Guest
Mang-Git Ng
CEO @Anvil

What is APIs You Won't Hate?

A no-nonsense (well, some-nonsense) podcast about API design & development, new features in the world of HTTP, service-orientated architecture, microservices, and probably bikes.

Hello and welcome back
to APIs You Won't Hate.

I am

mike Biko, one of the co-founders
of APIs You Won't Hate here

sitting down for a chat with my
new friend, Manu ing from Anvil.

Manu, thanks for joining today.

Why don't you tell me a
little bit about yourself,

and I'd love to hear the
elevator pitch for Anvil too.

Awesome.

Thanks for having me on the podcast today.

Mike, it's.

It's always a pleasure to do these.

So a little bit about myself.

Like Mike, Mike mentioned
my name's Span ing.

I am a founder, the founder of Anvil,
and prior to that I worked as a

software engineer for many years.

So previously I had worked at companies
like Dropbox Style Pad Flexport, and

then also a small company called Loom.

Not the video recording one that everybody
knows about, but it, they did own loom.com

and then that was acquired into Dropbox.

So been in the startup
space for quite some time.

My background that kind of led me to
Anvil was both personal and professional.

I will say in my personal life I
was just, dealing with adult stuff,

like applying for a mortgage and
getting infinite numbers of PDFs to

fill out that I had to then send.

Over email to bankers so that I could
get a quote for a mortgage rate.

So that was painful.

And then in my professional life
working at Dropbox, there was obviously

a lot of documents at Flexport.

What you don't realize is that
most shipping is just generating

documents along the way with
some data that you have.

Flexport system was essentially
a system of record for the data

and it would generate the correct
documents as your shipment, cross

borders and got onto different ships.

And every time there was a PDF that needed
to be created somebody had to hand code

a template of that PDF in HTML, and then
we'd render it and then generate the pdf.

So that's why we created Anvil.

Anvil is, frankly speaking the.

Easiest way to build software for
documents, whether that's generating PDFs,

filling out PDFs, collecting e-signatures,
or the entire document process where you

gotta collect information, generate a
certain set of documents based on some

rules, and send it through E-signature.

And the nice thing is that Anvil's
completely embeddable white labeled

and has a very robust API, which
is why we're on the show today.

right on.

Lots to get into there.

Really interesting.

I know Flexport does a lot of

Wild logistics stuff.

I guess it totally makes sense
that you're generating PDFs left

and right 'cause there's bills of
record the whole way through for

shipping that are really important.

That's fascinating.

So you were,

I guess in, in the world
before Anvil existed,

I'd imagine you felt the pain of

Those PDFs in one way or the other.

What was the thing that made you go

Hey, like I'm a smart engineer,
I should really dive into trying

to make this a better thing.

Smart engineer might be an overstatement.

I was an engineer.

Fair enough.

Yeah.

I've met very many engineers
that are much smarter than I am.

Let's put it that way.

I think it was just, I knew I
wanted to work on my own startup,

my own project at some point.

So that was always in the cards for me.

I had been a part of many startups
before starting Anvil, right?

Like Dialpad, I was like number
seven Lu I was number seven as well.

And then Flexport and Dropbox
was there during the growth stage

is when it was like 500 people.

So gotta see that spectrum.

Sure.

so that's maybe the starting point.

And then I was really looking for a
problem space that I felt was both.

Large enough and painful enough, and
also impactful enough that really

would be something I'd be willing
to commit to for the next, five,

10, however many years to tackle.

So I think those are probably
the two driving forces.

And then it was just really happenstance,
like I was going through a period of my

life when I was starting a company, where
I just had a lot of documents to do.

Like I was doing all the life
stuff that you don't do when you're

working, 'cause you put it off.

And so it just was like an aha moment
where everything clicked together.

I think hindsight's 2020 always, but

Sure.

I.

In my experience, I've been
lucky to meet a lot of founders

by way of podcast interview and,

having friends

With similar,

Mental states to my own,
who found themselves in

The founder seat one way or the other.

And

There are a

Few buckets that founders
tend to fall into.

And,

There's always something interesting
talking to people who've like really

felt the problem that they're trying
to solve before, before solving it

because it's so much more deeply.

Like

You feel it to your core, but you
know when it's success because

past you would've loved this,

To an extent.

Yeah.

That's really cool.

I,

I'd imagine a lot of the folks listening
to this, I'd imagine virtually everyone

on Earth has touched A PDF in some way.

I'd imagine some of the people listening
to this have tried to do what you

described before with PDF templates or
pulling structured data from a document or

putting structured data into a document.

my experience

Is somewhat limited.

But I can tell you that,

I still have nightmares about
trying to deal with some of the

Biggest company in the world, like

Their APIs and tools for building PDFs.

Tell me about

What the process is like.

What's the hello world for someone,

Onboarding with Anv look like

Yeah.

So typically the first thing
you do is just sign up.

You go grab a PDF form that
you're trying to automate.

So typically it's a blank form, right?

We actually ask you to upload blank forms.

And you upload it into Anvil.

Anvil will automatically run through
the PDF and use computer vision

to find all the blanks for you.

Does a pretty good job.

I'll say not perfect,
but does a very good job.

And then we'll run it through an LLM to
label and tag all the fields for you.

So it'll do things like.

Give each field a readable name.

It'll give each field a specific type.

So we have address types, social security
number types, short text, long text,

all that kind of stuff, check boxes.

And it will also associate
the fields together.

So address fields typically
are compound fields.

There's line one, line
two, city, state, zip.

Anvil will associate those
together so that when you go to

populate this PDF, it's like a
data structure that makes sense.

It's not just a bunch of fields
that are not interrelated,

even though they should be.

So that's pretty much it.

If you have a schema already that you're
trying to map to A PDF, you can pass

along the keys and we will also try
to associate your schema to specific

fields on the PDF automatically.

That just makes it easy for you to
normalize data across multiple documents.

And then you make an API request.

We automatically generate a restful
endpoint for you to fill this out.

There's a payload of data that gets auto
generated and you just make a request

to that endpoint with your API key.

And you should receive a filled out PDF.

I'm a little,

Gobsmacked right now.

Having had tried to build something on,

DocuSign,

APIs in particular, like

The complexity that large companies
can inject into a process like

this can be pretty mind numbing.

And it's hard to see when you're that big.

I've worked for great big
corporations, I've worked for

n equals one corporations, and,

No fault in either direction.

But like that, what you've just
described sounds like the dream I needed,

When I was working on this the last time.

And

It's a really interesting tool.

Like that is something that I think
fundamentally, anyone whose business

has some overlap into the real world
where a printer might be involved,

Can use this

And has some value for it.

I'll actually maybe give you
an example from my world.

Outside of APIs, we won't hate or
run a startup called Craftwork.

We're a vertically integrated home
painting company, and one of the things

we deal with a lot is we get invoices
and receipts from a paint supplier.

So a paint store.

We go and order paint for a project.

It'll have

The associated.

Project that it's with.

So it might be like Mike's house,

And here's the 10 gallons of paint
we ordered and the four paint

brushes and the primer and all the
other stuff that's needed there.

Those per company are
generally pretty standardized.

However, that's like another form
of oddly unstructured data in that

it's an invoice that can have,

One or 10 or 50 rows.

And I don't necessarily
have, let's call it like

A blank version of that.

In, in your world, is that

Should I go

And find a way to regenerate that
sort of template with a blank?

Is there a story for
that with Anvil as well?

Is that something that,

Is a use case you're interested in?

Yeah, absolutely.

I think when it comes to
extracting data out of PDFs, we

don't actually do that today.

Our thesis has always been, and I
said we don't actually do that today.

Actually, I don't know if we'll
ever do it, let's be honest.

Our thesis has always been
that we already live in a world

of a lot of structured data.

And instead of destructuring it
and putting it into a PDF, and then

having somebody pull that unstructured
data out of a PDF with OCR and lLM

text extraction methods it should
just be structured the whole time.

Like the PDF becomes an
artifact of the process.

And so one way that I would think about
your problem in this ideal future is

when an invoice is generated as a PDF
the actual data that went into generating

the PDF should be attached in the
PDF as metadata that is structured.

And so if you're like receiving the PDF
instead of parsing it out with computer

vision and whatnot and overcomplicating
it with this Rube Goldberg machine that

you've created you just go read the
data out and parse it into your system.

And so this is actually like a hack week
project that I did, which was I really

wanted to take that structured data.

Concept to the next level with PDFs.

And Anvil does a lot with collecting data.

We have a workflow tool, we call it.

It collects data on the
front end with a web form.

It's dynamic.

There's lots of logic, and then
it generates the corresponding set

of documents that you need, right?

But really what I want to do is
embed all that data as metadata

alongside as the PDF, so that anybody
could go pull it out if they knew

it was a anvil generated document.

Or hopefully this becomes like
an open standard, and then PDFs

literally become packets, right?

It's like it's, there's like the
internet packets and then there's

like the packet that like the average,
normal lay person would think of.

It's like a packet of PDFs that
then get passed around and the

data can just be extracted.

So that, that's our take on it.

But we live in a messy world
and there is a lot of a lot of.

Unstructured data living in PDFs today,
and I think there's lots of really

great companies that are tackling it.

From the, the legacy OCR companies and
RPA companies to the newer crop of 'em

that came along in this gen AI world.

The idea that A PDF might have
structured data embedded in

it right now makes me wanna go

Dive into my hex editor

And figure out what I've
been missing this whole time.

Like genuinely, that's
never crossed my mind

That's even possible

they, the funny thing is
they don't, most of them do

Yeah.

it was really, actually, I, as far
as I know, nobody, the, all of the

metadata that gets embedded into the
PDF is not the data that's on the PDF.

It's it's oh, this person
signed the document.

It's that kind of information.

But why not take it a step further?

I don't understand why nobody's
really done it that way, but

That's

No different than putting
an image in a document.

That's crazy.

That's such a good idea.

I really like that.

You also mentioned documents,

Signing as well.

That's something that you serve.

So it feels like you've got a

Pretty complete picture for

Populate this thing and
then go ask for a signature.

Is that right?

Yeah, absolutely.

We found that was like a very natural
point for Anvil to move towards after

building the first version of Anvil.

We really think of paperwork as.

Both a mechanism for data transport,
like moving data between individuals and

organizations, but also a mechanism for
describing a business process, right?

A lot of times a business operates
on a set of documents and they

have to be completed in a certain
manner, in a certain order.

And that essentially is a codification
of what that company does and

people leave, people come, but
like the process stays the same.

Yeah.

It sounds like you've been
through a few different phases.

I don't know if you mentioned
before, how old is the company?

We're about seven and a half years
so been around for a hot second.

Back to the statement earlier about
something I wanted to work on for five 10

or maybe even longer in terms of years.

Yeah.

I'm curious then, like

You've evolved over the past seven years.

What did your first crop of customers
look like and how did you find them?

And then what do they look like now and

How has that changed?

yeah.

Our first crop of customers we were
really targeting non-technical people.

The whole premise was, Hey, we're
gonna create a set of tools.

We actually, so we actually
built the workflow tool first.

A set of tools that where
you can take documents.

And upload it into Anvil and Anvil,
then automatically create an online

form for you that you can then share
with people to collect the data.

So the premise was TurboTax, anything.

So our first customer was
actually they're a great customer,

still a customer of ours.

First Ascent.

They're now part of geo wealth.

They are a giant, kinda
like wealth management.

Back office firms.

So wealth advisors would choose
them to manage all the documents and

paperwork and they would handle the
account opening documents, they would

handle the transition, all that stuff.

As well as like investment
strategies and stuff like that.

That's, that was our first customer.

We effectively built Anvil
around their use case.

They were like a design
partner, which was.

Honestly a really lucky
first experience, right?

There was just so much about the way
paperwork works and the way companies

manage documents that, was so much more
complicated than what we had anticipated.

I think the most telling thing
for me is like there's just a

lot of tribal knowledge that
lives in individual's heads that.

If you're trying to codify it and
translate it into a workflow you really

need to like, pull it out of 'em.

Oftentimes they don't even realize
it's tribal knowledge and because

it was such a complex use case, we
actually built a pretty robust system.

Fast forward a couple
years, what we realized was.

A lot of our friends were building
companies in these legacy industries and

they were running into this problem where
they had to generate documents and they

kept coming to us asking us for an API.

So we just decided to productionize
our own internal APIs, expose

'em, make it easy for kinda like
technology customers to use us.

And nowadays the vast majority
of our customers are actually

like early to growth sage
technology customers that find us.

Read our APIs may maybe the lms
the agents read our APIs and then

implements us into their system.

So yeah, we're pretty deeply
embedded into organizations and

we generally power like a pretty
important stack and their business.

Yeah.

I will say, yeah, definitely.

As someone,

Building tools for a old industry
that's a early to growth stage

company, I think that's like.

I can draw a lot of circles around things
I need that are document driven right now.

It's a really interesting
problem to solve.

And I can imagine many types of
companies that would be into that.

I'm curious what you can tell me
about how the software is built.

So from architecture to,

the types of engineers that work for you.

What are, how are you building this?

And,

I dunno, what does your team look like?

Yeah.

So from a technology stack perspective,
it's a pretty standard stack.

It's no js.

GraphQL endpoints and
react on the front end.

We also have a fairly robust like
PDF library that we it's an open

source library that we've then
wrapped in this nice web experience.

So there's a lot, a fair amount
of Java in our code as well.

For better or worse, and.

Yeah so that's the joke is always
oh, it makes sense that the

ultimate enterprise file format
is also written in the ultimate

enterprise language, which is Java.

Of course.

And so that's the stack.

In terms of our team,
we're a very lean team.

We're a team of seven and it's
about half engineering and.

Half non-engineering.

Everybody's fairly technical,
I will say on our team.

And I say half engineering 'cause
I count myself as half an engineer,

so that makes it exactly half.

And yeah and so it's, we run pretty lean.

The nice thing is our product is,
generally speaking, very self-serve.

We tried a heavy sales motion early
on, but just given our ICP, which

is engineers and product people.

didn't want to get on sales calls.

We just, they just wanted
to have access to the docks.

They wanted to have a dev sandbox.

They wanted to kick the tires.

And that's how a lot of
our customers come to us.

They start paying us 5 cents, 10
cents, a hundred dollars, $2,000 a

month, and then it just becomes like
a real, it becomes a real account.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I,

Am guilty of diving into your
docs and looking at things,

as I've been like preparing
for this interview.

And,

A few things stood out to me that

are very bright green signals for me as
a developer is, I'll start by saying that

if you're listening to this podcast, you
should go check out Anvil's docs pages.

'cause they're so well organized.

They're beautiful, they're like in

Thought out.

They have nice API reference.

It's like whoever worked on those,
give them a high five for me.

That's,

What I would say is do that and then
think of any other PDF, like API you can

think of and go look at the difference.

And

As an engineer, I feel like
you can feel the difference.

If you're selling to engineers,
in my eyes, that sells itself.

I've, I'm also like
really happy to see that,

Your pricing is pretty transparent.

Do you wanna talk a little bit
about the pricing strategy?

Yeah, absolutely.

It is pretty much pay as you go.

It's 10 cents A PDF generation.

It's a dollar 50 for a
completed signature packet.

And I say completed because.

All of the other, or not all, but
99% of the other e-sign providers,

they charge you on send regardless
of if the signatures were completed.

And so we really want
to align value there.

And then it's a dollar
for a workflow submission.

So a workflow is a web form that can
be pretty complex or multiple web

forms that then populate multiple PDFs.

We do also have some kind of like
platform fee type fee pricing.

Specifically if you want like white
labeling or some high, more advanced

features, those are a monthly platform
fee or an annual platform fee.

And then enterprise is similar.

It's a larger platform fee.

You have more advanced features, you get
more support, and then of course, as usage

scales, you're able to buy discounted.

Usage.

So overall we want to scale with you.

We wanna make it easy for you to start
and not pay a bunch up front, but

if you do start using us a lot, we
don't want to be nickel and dimming

you at retail prices, essentially.

What I like about that is,

It's predictable.

If you can look at that and
understand how it fits into your

world as a team, building something,

But also accessible enough,

If I want to test it and see if,

My first a hundred documents,

Makes sense and work and fits
my team's use case, that's

not a insurmountable thing,

The first a hundred documents
will actually be free.

'cause when you plop on a credit
card, we give you a bunch of

free credit for production usage.

So I believe it's don't quote me on this.

I believe it's a thousand
PDF generations and.

Like 50 workflows or 50 signatures.

I'll have to double check,
but it is pretty generous.

We do want you to I think we want
you to build as a developer and use

the dev keys and all that stuff, and
that's pretty much the full experience.

You get access to pretty much everything
When you flip into production, we remove

the watermarks and stuff like that.

We do want to give you
enough credit to actually.

Run it into production in a meaningful
way so that you have confidence that you

can build your business on top of this.

Yeah, I like that too.

I walked right into

Your free tier as well.

I,

Promise I

Didn't try to do that, but

That's true.

And so from what I remember,
looking through your docs,

You are GraphQL and rest endpoint

Driven, right?

So there's like

Our API,

Homies listening to the podcast will
be really interested in what that all,

Looks like.

Do you have,

is it,

Primarily like rest endpoints

In GraphQL?

Do you have,

Client SDKs in, written in,

Java, whatever c

Node languages Or is it,

Or documentation around

Send a request that looks like
this and this is what will happen.

Yeah.

So we do have client sks that
we've written and we publish.

They are, I believe there's a JavaScript
one, a C one, there's a Python one.

And we generally try to be pretty
good about maintaining them.

Occasionally we do get some people writing
in and then we dive in there and go fix

it, and we do ask if somebody has a fix,
please feel free to open up pull request.

So we do have a lot of
pre-written libraries.

They're mostly just like client wrappers.

Our API is pretty hopefully pretty, pretty
simple to understand and integrate with.

And so I think that.

If you're just making web
requests it's pretty easy.

The client libraries do nice things
like handle multi-part uploads for

you if you're uploading a large
PDF to be templatized or handle,

like automatically handle rate
limiting four, two nines for you.

And using your encryption
keys and stuff like that.

So it's really just like nice helper
functions to, to get you started faster.

One of the other things I wanted
to mention too is you have quite

A broad list of like open source
things published on Anil's,

GitHub, which is really cool to see.

And also nice that

You're,

Open to and willing to like,
accept community driven,

Changes and whatnot.

Especially,

Keeping up with lots of
languages can be a challenge and,

getting the, like
developer flavored change

Is often.

Really useful, especially,

If it's like not your
specific native language,

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

And I'll say, actually
just a quick call out.

If anybody out there is looking for a
documentation reference docs generation

system for GraphQL check out spectacle,
that's S-P-E-C-T-A-Q-L that is the

system we use and we op, we open source
for generating our reference docs for

very cool.

It was a fork from a previous project that
kind of got abandoned and we updated it.

And yeah.

Now whenever we push a new endpoint
or change something it just

automatically compiles and creates a
new reference stocks for our endpoints.

I will make sure

That shows up in the show notes.

So if you're listening to this, you
can scroll down to the description of

your podcast and get right to that too.

Can you tell me like

Where your team is headed?

What are the kinds of problems
you're looking at next?

Oh man.

So many.

I think there's one to start maybe
revisiting the pricing question earlier.

One thing we did last year was.

Make any usage of Anvil from
our online experience free.

The goal is really to
make Anvil accessible to

non-technical people as well.

So your ops team can send out a
signature packet and have that be free.

And so that kind of plays into
what we're thinking about in 2026,

which is we want to bring anvil
to places that people do work.

And this is I think, a pretty
strong counter position

against other e-sign providers.

Other e-sign providers think of
themselves as the platform and then

say, Hey, come to us and we will be
your one place to manage documents.

And the fact of the matter is like
nobody's working out of DocuSign.

They're working out of Salesforce,
they're working out of HubSpot.

And so what Anvil's trying to do
is make it so they can connect

Anvil to your Salesforce account.

And then from within Salesforce, let's
say you can just say, generate us a sales

contract and automatically generates it.

You review it with our embedded
components all within Salesforce,

and then send out for signature.

So we wanna do this for Salesforce,
HubSpot, all of these like touch points

where teams generally get work done.

And a big one of, for the, for
that in the, forward looking

is really MCP UI apps, right?

Yeah, sure.

chat, GPT, Claude Cowork where
somebody can say, I need to get this

document signed, upload an anvil's
system automatically tags and labels.

And they say here's a payload of data.

Go fill it out.

Send it out for signature.

That's one aspect.

The flip side of that is how do we
prevent agents from just randomly

signing a bunch of stuff like
we need to know it's a human.

So we got some pretty fun stuff fun
projects up our sleeves to create

a frictionless way to identify an
individual as a human, not an agent.

More on that to come, but that's
something we're working on

probably in, in Q1, Q2 this year.

And I think we'll be the first ones to
really tackle that problem beyond like a.

Hey, set up a video camera, a
video call and notarize and have

a notary or do one of those like
crazy face scan things, right?

That nobody seems to like doing.

So that's another one.

And then the last project, which
is the bid project is goes back to

how thinks of ourselves as a data
company, not so much a PDF company.

Like the data, just the PDF is
an artifact and it just happens

to be how the world operates.

But one thing we do today is again,
you can upload your keys when

you're tagging A PDF, and we will
automatically match your key schema

to the schema of the document, right?

So that makes it easy for you.

Then create data payloads that are
easy for you to manipulate in your

code and have that rendered onto A PDF.

With.

new project, what we're trying to do
is go beyond mapping a schema to A PDF.

Imagine a world where you could
grab a payload of data in any schema

and tell us the target schema.

And an and anvil just
automatically translates that

data into your target schema.

So you can use it in whatever system.

It could be a PDF, it could be
another application database,

it could be your snowflake.

So we already have this
general concept in Anvil.

It's just very PDF oriented.

Sure.

The goal is to build it out so that
you can effectively install anvil

in front of your application or,
wherever and just use it as a pass

through for transforming data on the
fly to be consumed in another system.

So that, that's really what
we're looking to, to work on

in this year and in the future.

It's a really cool use of the tools and

Expanding your borders a little bit.

And becoming the translator between,

Adjacent,

Namespace is a really interesting idea.

I have spent a lot of my career, and
I'm sure a lot of people listening

to this have spent a lot of their
career doing exactly that, where it's

I don't know, we just get this.

Garbage format from some COBOL
program from 700 years ago, and

We need to convert it into this new thing.

And so I'm gonna spend the next,

Nine weeks writing a, an
intensive like JSON schema thing

to translate things around.

And,

A lot of the world we're living in now
makes that easier and more interesting,

And more capable for

Everyone to do.

That's super cool.

I really like

Yeah.

Did I say the words AI
yet, or the word AI yet?

The part of the reason of doing this is
actually, if you think about is actually

really good at these types of matching
problems where it's you have this thing

here and you have this thing here.

And like a human could look at it and
be like, oh yeah, that makes sense.

This field obviously
meet matches this key.

But to do that derma
deterministically is quite difficult.

You'll never run out of rules
to have to implement, but to do

that with ai and lms, it's a lot.

Easier.

And so now we actually have this tool
that allows us to do that, and we think

we have a unique data set that allows
us to do that better than anybody else.

And we can actually fine tune and tr,
make these models work for this use case.

That I think is actually a pretty
good moat as we build up this feature.

Yeah.

Definitely.

Yeah, that sounds really interesting.

You'll have to send that my
way as soon as it's available.

I'd love to play around with it.

I definitely will.

Couple more small things for you.

Is your team expanding?

Are you looking to hire anytime soon?

Yeah, absolutely.

We are hiring specifically
looking for engineers.

We are planning on hiring two-ish, two
to three-ish engineers, so if anybody's

interested, please do check us out.

I believe the jobs are posted on,
found, also known as Angel List.

Anybody has deep experience with AI
ml and wants to be a full stack, just

like a builder, I don't wanna say
you're not just focused on AI and ml,

but you can be building the entire
application and be close to customers.

Yeah, come check us out.

We have some we have
some open roles there.

Very cool.

Yeah,

I will be sure to,

Stick that link in the bottom here too.

The last thing I wanted to ask you
about is you host a podcast as well.

Can you tell me about that?

Gimme the pitch for your show.

Yeah.

Thanks Mike.

We host a podcast called Build First
Buy and we get product leaders founders

on our show to talk about their
decisions when they're building a

new company, creating a new company.

Their decision making around whether
to build something or buy something

and specifically around technology.

And I think there is a strong bias
to building in Silicon Valley.

I think one guest that came on made
a very good point that like people

in Silicon Valley are rewarded for
building but fundamentally there are

just things that you probably shouldn't.

Build if you're really trying
to move fast and launch.

That's the conversation we have there.

We've had 26, 27 episodes now
with some really great leaders.

Many of them are people that I've been
fortunate enough to work with in the past.

And yeah, would love for
people to check it out.

It's bill verse buy look it up
with Anvil in the Google search.

Or ask Claude to look it
up for you or something.

Yeah.

And.

Hopefully you guys enjoyed
listening to that podcast as well.

Yeah, definitely.

We'll make sure to link that through too.

Build versus buy is
the perpetual question,

For all of us.

And

I agree with you.

I think a lot of Silicon Valley
rewards building when like money

works to make things happen too,

We see that now as well, right?

Like the whole premise around like
Clause is gonna build everything.

You're just gonna prompt claw
code and know SaaS is dead.

Maybe we'll get there.

Maybe that is the future.

But I think as of the current
state, Claude is great at building

MVPs and actually, and great
at editing existing code bases.

I think that's what it's really
good at and it is very powerful.

I use it every day, but to productionize
something to make it scalable and reliable

and resilient and you honestly have to go
through a couple fires and feel the pain.

No.

And then get a bunch of
phone calls and then, yeah.

So we, I think we've battle
tested and battle hardened our

system quite a bit at this point.

You're speaking to my heart.

I feel that deeply right
now, without a doubt.

Right on.

Manding, thank you for joining.

I really appreciate
having you on the show.

Before I let you go, where's the
best place to find you online and

how do people find Anvil Online?

Yeah.

Best place to find me online is LinkedIn.

Mange it.

Just plot or just like Google, me, my
name's unique enough that I'm, I think

I'm the first two pages of results.

I most active on LinkedIn, I will say.

And then Anvil is use anvil.com.

We also have a YouTube channel.

We have a TikTok and Instagram,
which you might think is funny

for a B2B SaaS company, but
there's some funny videos there.

I would say we, we work
with a really great agency.

So check those out.

Hopefully they're entertaining
and yeah, hope to hear from you.

I'll maybe on LinkedIn
or on one of our social.

Right on.

That sounds great.

We'll make sure to tag
you there when this,

Goes live too.

Mange, thanks for joining me.

It was really great getting to know you
and super cool to chat about the product.

I'm excited to see
where it goes from here.

Thanks for having me on the show.

It was a lot of fun.

Of course, we'll catch you soon.

Take care.