Daily(ish)

For today’s Saturday chat I’m joined by Josh “Triple Threat” Collinsworth (design engineer at Cloudflare, blogger, and game designer), who I know from the ShopTalk Show Discord. We talk about Josh’s former company Deno was acquired by Cloudflare, remote-work continuity, and dig into the daily puzzle-game renaissance including Josh’s new browser-based PWA puzzle game Tupo.

Links Mentioned in This Episode:
Topics:
  • (00:00) - Welcome and Guest Intro
  • (00:27) - Balatro Name Debate
  • (01:45) - Deno Joins Cloudflare
  • (03:47) - Remote Work Setup Shift
  • (06:24) - Puzzle Game Renaissance
  • (08:11) - Tupo Launch and PWAs
  • (10:30) - Installing PWAs on iOS
  • (14:48) - Apple Incentives and Arcade
  • (18:06) - AI and Vibe Coding Games
  • (26:30) - Career Advice and Wrap Up


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Creators and Guests

Host
Chris
I edit podcasts so you don't have to. I live in Saskatchewan so you don't have to?
Guest
Josh Collinsworth
Designer/frontend dev; writer; maker of games like Tupo.

What is Daily(ish)?

Challenging myself to record a podcast episode a day for my 50th year on this planet.

Chris: Hello, and welcome to Daily-ish
for Saturday, October 24th, 2026.

I'm recording an episode every day
for this, my 50th year on the planet.

For today's Saturday chats with a
guest, that's name branding pending,

I'm joined by what, uh, affectionately
or officially known as Triple Threat

Josh Collinsworth a design engineer
for Cloudflare, blogger, game designer.

Those are the three maybe areas,
and then Bolat- Bolatro, or you

s- how did, how did you say it?

You said it differently

than I, did.

Bolatro?

Josh: I go back and forth.

Uh, Balatro or Balatro, I forget
which one I started with now.

Uh, but I guess nobody, including the
creator, knows how it's supposed to

be said, so just pick and go with it

Chris: I kind of keep forgetting.

I joke about it every so often in
the Discord, ShopTalk Show Discord,

where we know each other from.

But the creator's actually
from my city here in Saskatoon.

not-- 'cause he isn't very public about
who he is, and so even in local…

There was one local interview
with him, and I don't think

he made it known who he is.

I'm sure I could dig, you know,
if I really wanted to find it, but

someone who doesn't wanna be known,
obviously I'm not gonna worry about

Josh: Local Thunk

is.

actually local for you

Chris: yeah, thinking about someone like
that who's fairly well-known in certain

circles anyways, that could be in line,
the guy I'm like annoyed at in line

at Tim Horton's or whatever, someday
while I'm playing Balatro or something.

Josh: Right.

You know he's had an experience where
he's been, like, on a plane and the person

beside him has been playing the game
or something like that and just been,

Chris: Yeah.

Josh: watching them

Chris: I like to think of him as sort of
the Banksy of, you know, game developers,

where he'll probably like leave something
that's like a calling card behind with

the person, like a s- you know, just a
sticker or whatever that they find two

hours later after the flight's over.

But

Josh: That'd be

Chris: who knows?

yeah, we- you've done a, a bunch of stuff.

You're, you just got a new job
or because of an acquisition

is, is what, how I understand.

I like to say that I, I hear a
lot of the words in technology and

development and w- web design and stuff.

I don't actually know all the words
deeply enough to know what they all

mean, but so f- correct me where I go
wrong here, but you, you worked for a

company that was acquired by Cloudflare.

Is that correct?

Josh: That's, yeah, that's, uh,
exactly the right way of saying it.

Um, Deno, And these are words
that, uh, almost nobody, uh,

outside of tech, uh, knows.

This, this is where my family drops off is

when I say, Uh, oh, it's an
open source JavaScript runtime."

Uh, uh, I don't even try
to say those words to them.

uh, Deno worked on a lot of,
um, very interesting projects.

Um, most people would know, uh,
most people in tech, I guess,

would probably know the, uh, the
titular runtime for JavaScript.

That's what it's famous for.

Ryan Dahl, the creator of
Node, came out with that.

But, um, lots of other things
that Deno was working on,

especially in the last year or so.

And, um, the, uh, the acquisition, uh,
to Cloudflare is k- is, is kind of for

Deno to take all of the things that we
learned building that and also building,

servers and, and, serverless hosting
and just everything that you really need

to run a runtime and make it work well.

And basically, uh, "Hey,
you guys have learned a lot.

You could help us push our thing further.

Let's work together."

And, um, so that's where we are.

That I've known about it for a little
while, but it was all just announced,

uh, a week ago this past Friday.

And so, um, it's very new.

I'm still onboarding.

I still, uh, just barely have
any idea what I'm doing there.

But, it's, it's been really
great so far, and I am very

excited to see where it all goes.

Chris: Yeah, this is not some, uh,
just to clarify for any random…

I don't know if Google serves
this up to some random person.

This is not like a, the official
PR tour for Cloudflare/Deno.

Josh: No, I'm not the guy.

Chris: It usually gets seen by 10 to 25
people, so we'll assume it might get a, a

slight bump from just having Cloudflare in
the title if I put that there or whatever.

But

I'm assuming you work from home.

I, I…

That's what I gather, right?

Or have for

Josh: That's, yeah, that's the
safe guess for my background, yeah.

So when the pandemic hit, I was
working for, um, technically it was

WP Engine there because I had just
gone through another acquisition.

Flywheel was acquired by WP
Engine, and so I was going into

the Flywheel office every day.

Pandemic hit, uh, started just being fully
remote and just haven't been back since

in all the jobs that I've had since then.

So I, I've invested a bit in my setup and
my background and all that kind of stuff.

Chris: presumably your, you know, walk
to work, so to speak, literal walk from

your, you know, kitchen to your office
or whatever, home office, doesn't change

when you work for Cloudflare versus Deno.

So is there any sort of like, do
you do anything like put a different

poster on the wall or door, on your
door to like sort of help your brain

like think now I'm somewhere else?

Or is it just like your
email is now at Cloudflare

Josh: I should do something.

Actually, the, the main division is like,
um, Deno being like an incredibly tiny

company, it fluctuated from about a dozen
up to, at most there were maybe 30 people

there in the three years I was there.

it was, it was pretty loose on
like the division of, personal

laptop versus work laptop.

And so I eventually just kind of got to
the point where it was like, "Mm, I'm

just gonna use one laptop for everything.

It's fine.

Like I'm not exposing
secrets or anything."

Cloudflare being a, uh, international
security company, uh, has a

lot stricter setup than that.

So I do actually have like a very strictly
work laptop that I can only use for work.

And, uh, so, so really
that change i- is…

Because I just like live staring
at a screen all day, like

that change is jarring enough.

It feels like I'm in a different
room or, or like everything is

different even though it's really,
it's the same chair and the same

keyboard and the same everything
else that I've been at for years now.

Chris: Yeah, which is probably, I
mean, I, I would guess I c-I can

see that being a helpful, like,
separation of, uh, you know, church

and state, home and work kinda stuff

for your brain.

Or is It,

Josh: it, it's good, I think.

Like, it throws a lot of friction in the
way, but at the same time I think it's

good for me because I will just go off
and get sidetracked by random stuff.

And so it force- it's, it's tying
me to the masts a little bit, uh, to

use the, is that Odyssey reference?

And making sure I don't crash
myself into a distraction

Chris: The siren call of, uh,
what, uh, game development,

I guess maybe or something.

Josh: Right.

Yeah, that.

Whatever

Chris: or a Balatro game

Josh: w-yeah, whatever my brain
happens to be obsessed with

in that particular moment.

Chris: So speaking of game development,
you've developed a bunch of puzzle

games and, one thing I, that feels weird
sometimes when I think about it, like

step back and think about my own parents
or like what used to be stereotypically

like people who were focused on
puzzle games was like old people.

And so I was-- I'm curious, like I think
it feels like, oh, everyone's playing

puzzle games now, but I'm like maybe I'm
just actually algorithmically targeted

so much that they know I'm 50, so now
I just see every puzzle game ever.

Or are we actually like, do you think
we're actually truly in the golden age

of puzzle games and things like that?

Josh: Interesting.

Um, I think I'm probably at the
point or getting really close to

the point where, like, 50% of the
population would consider me old.

So, uh, yeah, maybe, maybe
there's something to that.

But I do think we, because of Wordle,
like, we are in this daily puzzle

game renaissance, it seems like.

It, it seem-- Uh, uh, maybe it was
more of a thing than I knew prior to

that point, but it seems like that
was kind of the, the hit that, brought

it mainstream, if it wasn't already.

And, and, um, now you
see all kinds of things.

Like, there's, I, uh, there's no
shortage of daily puzzle games out there.

And, um, yeah, I've, I've dipped my,
uh, my toes into making a few, and I'm,

I'm particularly proud of this one and,
and the reception it's gotten so far.

But, um, I, I did it because I'm
a big fan and I have fun playing

these games on a daily basis.

I'm a huge fan of Clues by Sam, uh,
as you know from the Discord, um,

one of the regulars who's always,
uh, quietly competing to try to get

better times than everybody else.

Uh, and, and Inkwell Games
and, and some others.

Um, but I, I, I like that
we've settled in this place.

And one of the things I really l-
especially like about this is that, I

felt like when I made my previous games…

It's been three years since I actually
released a new game before, uh, Tupo,

was, uh, uh, you could call it released.

I, I don't…

Is it a release?

I just announced it.

I put it on the web and announced it.

Is that a release?

It's, it's

Chris: Yeah.

Josh: on it.

Chris: do you do version tracking?

I guess you do probably behind the
scenes, but there's not like a…

release notes or whatever for like fix…

I guess you, you post them
on social media maybe, but

Josh: Not really.

Yeah, I should probably do a
better job at that, honestly.

but like with my previous ones, I felt
like I had to get them into the App Store.

Like they needed to exist in the
iOS store and the Play Store, or

else they weren't like real apps.

Uh, or, or that was the perception.

Like I think a lot of people would,
would have been like, " Well,

this isn't a real thing then."

but it feels like the tide has
kind of shifted, at least as far

as these daily puzzle games are
concerned, and people will play them

on their browsers and they will…

it seems like to me, I don't have good
stats on it, but it seems like people,

at least the hardcore nerds like me,
like know how to install them on their

phones or know how to like do the bookmark
or get there every day or whatever

it takes to actually play the game on
a daily basis, whether it's in their

browser or whether they're installing it.

And so this time around, I didn't
feel like I needed to appify the game.

I felt like I could just let it
exist as a progressive web app

and, people will play it that way.

And, and I love that that is the effect
of Wordle and all of the things that

have followed, is that it has kind
of brought this, app that's just a

website into our lives, and I love that

Chris: Yeah, um, and in case I
didn't say it earlier, playtupo.com

is the address to go play Tupo.

And, um, I-- But I agree with you.

Like, I was playing Inkwell games
for a while and just going to the

browser and typing it in or, like,
or whatever in the recently searched

or whatever pop up obviously.

Um, so Inkwell games make Stars and Fields
and Streams, I think is the other…

I haven't played the other ones as much.

But, anyways, very pop- or very
fun games, I think anyways.

Really well designed as well,
which I would also put, play like

Tupo in that category as well.

Wordle is kind of functional,
I feel like, whereas Tupo and

Inkwell games in particular have
a, just a fun design to me when I'm

playing them or, yeah, using them.

It feels like a nice app to
use, a nice game to use, uh, in

addition to being a fun puzzle.

the first time I kind of remembered, I
don't remember what prompted me to do it,

but like to install it as a progressive
web app or just as a, on the, the

whatever it's called, not the dashboard,

the

Josh: put it on your, your

dock or your home screen.

Yeah.

Chris: Yeah, I was trying to
think of like the regular normal

person way of saying that.

I could, whatever the…

But installing it basically as a
bookmarked, you know, app, it feels

like it's an app then on your phone.

And that actually changed it for me for
like now I go to my, you know, the spot

on my, uh, iPhone where I run games
from, the shortcut folder or whatever,

and it's just one more game I play.

And it kind of just helps my
brain get into like that's

what I'm doing mode somehow.

Josh: Yeah

Chris: uh, and then it's also just
kind of fun seeing their really

nice, really nicely designed icon
for the, for the app that You don't

sort of see that or feel that when
you just, you know, go to the Safari.

This, it's a Safari thing instead of a,
an iOS app anyway or iOS phone, instead

of a Inkwell Games app or whatever, so

Josh: Yeah, that's the, the wonderful
thing about it is you can have

that app experience, um, and you
don't have to go through the store.

You don't e- the, the developer
doesn't have to package it up as

a Swift whatever it is, you know?

It's all, all of that capability exists
and has existed for many years on

the web, um, where, Apple and Google
both have their, uh, faults in…

Th- they're very incentivized to
keep the App Store as the sort

of primary road into everything.

And so they've both done their
own, um, sort of sandbagging of

this whole ecosystem to try to keep
things from, uh, becoming too popular

and cutting into the bottom line.

Um, I will say I, I think Apple has
probably had to be dragged more kicking

and screaming into this feature, and
even now they have a very, I don't know,

un-intuitive install flow where you have
to open the share menu and go down and it

takes a lot of steps to actually do it.

I hope that they eventually have something
more sane and, user-friendly for this.

But I am happy we've at least reached
a point where they have it at all.

Chris: Yeah, it's definitely
not an intuitive thing.

Like my-- If I told my parents that, "Oh,
you can just install it as an app on your

phone," and left it at that, there's no
way, just to pick on my parents as an

example, but obviously it could be my
sister, my younger sister or whatever too.

But, you know, there's no way
they would know or figure…

Unless, um, I think Inkwell Games
maybe has like a whole sheet of

explanation if you, you know,
know where to look or whatever for

Josh: That's kind of--
That's the unfortunate thing

is you have to have that.

Like, if you're in my position, if
you're in Inkwell's position, whoever,

like somewhere on your website,
you've probably got like, "Hey

everybody, here's how you do this."

And it shouldn't have to be that way.

Like, it, it should be simple enough
that somebody who wants this and

wants to install this could very
easily figure it out on their own.

We are just not there yet, um, at
least not on iOS, unfortunately.

Chris: Yeah, it, it's almost…

When I compare it to the world of
podcasting, which is what I know, like

Apple at some point decided, obviously
because they have a podcast app, that

it's cool to have a banner pop up on a
podcast page, like a s- in Safari and say,

"Hey, you can open this in a podcast app."

You know?

And it…

So it'd be interesting to have if,
you know, some way of signaling this

is a PWA, and so you could tap this
and then we'll install it on your,

Josh: Yeah.

Chris: app.

Josh: That exists, in fact, in a limited
form in Chrome on macOS, I think.

But it definitely exists on Android.

There is an actual just like,
"Hey, click here to install this.

We got you."

And that is not implemented in
Safari at all, I don't believe

Chris: Yeah.

No, I don't think so.

Yeah, Chrome is very…

Yeah, I've s- I've seen that on Mac too.

On, on macOS in Chrome incentivized to
help it, help make it easier to install.

Again, 'cause of their Google Docs,
Google Sheets, whatever, they want those

to be, like, the things you use, and
so they're gonna make that available.

So that's where their incentives lie, I

Josh: Yeah, and I think in a lot
of cases it's really convenient.

Like I install, uh, like
Meet and Calendar and Sheets.

Like anything that I'm using,
I'm just like, I don't want

this to be another browser tab.

I want it to be an actual app so
I can flip back and forth between

this and whatever else I'm doing.

So it's, it's valuable for more than
just me playing my daily puzzle games.

Like I think it's great
to have that capability.

But, um, again, too bad that, uh,
Apple is so heavily incentivized

not to make that easier than it is

Chris: Which it's interesting actually
thinking in a, in a previous life I,

well, I s- it's sort of dormant right
now, but a, a 25 cent arcade podcast

is what I do with my friend Nick, and
talking Apple Arcade specifically.

but it would be interesting if they got
sort of puzzle focused for a while and

some of-- built a way for the, some of
these games like Tupo and, you know,

Inkwell games or whatever, to be included
in Apple Arcade somehow, where they would

give you some money in exchange for clicks
to, you know, your game or whatever.

Um, and, and built it into their
ecosystem as a thing you could play,

but it still would just, just a PWA.

It, it wouldn't-- the infrastructure
wouldn't take a lot, I don't think,

on their end, but obviously it's not
gonna necessarily move the needle in

selling more iPhones or iPads, I guess.

But in terms of making the Apple
Arcade subscription worth it to

people who don't already have it
as part of something, to me that…

Like the top played game on Apple Arcade
whenever I look is still Solitaire.

Like it's just that's the…

People just want a simple game, a card
puzzle whatever game to play while they're

waiting in line or in their airplane
or whatever, and I feel like there's

a whole untapped market here that's…

Not that it's about getting rich
for you, I'm assuming, but I mean,

who wouldn't turn on, turn down
Wordle money if Apple came calling?

But

Josh: I, I think there's a world
where progressive web apps could

easily exist alongside native apps.

Um, anything this technical, I'm sure
there are considerations that, uh,

seem simple on the surface and they're,
more difficult the more you dig in.

Um, Apple's protest has
always been security.

that has rang a little hollow
in a lot of cases to me.

I'm sure there are valid cases where
you have to be careful what you

give users access to, but kind of
ironically, it seems like the native

apps are the ones that have a lot
more access than the web apps do.

it, it looks to me as though if
you were sufficiently motivated,

you could have native apps and
progressive web apps alongside each

other in just about any context.

but, getting a company to be sufficiently
motivated when it's, uh, making

billions of dollars by, uh, skimming
off of all traffic going through that

doorway, uh, probably not gonna happen.

Chris: Yeah, I guess that's in
terms of Apple technology, uh, if

I was an Apple blogger or whatever,
I should be asking you if you, if

Tupo is, uh, iPhone Duo capable yet.

Have you tested it and made sure it

Josh: I I, I, I haven't.

Chris: sure it would.

I don't know why it wouldn't,

but…

Josh: I actually don't even
know enough about the Duo to

think about that too much.

My-- I know that it has controls where
you can do special things, uh, based on

whether it's folded or, you know, one half
or the other half or things like that.

my assumption would be that it just
any site ought to run just like

normally, just fine on this device.

I don't think you need
to do anything special.

You just have that capability
if you really want to

Chris: Yeah, I think if it-- it would
be, that's where, again, like a native

app might have more issues 'cause you'd
have to incorporate whether it works on

the second screen or how it happens when
it, you know, folds out or whatever, like

Josh: Right.

Yeah

Chris: Safari kind of takes care
of a lot of that for you now.

Josh: I, yeah, I, I don't even know.

I should, I should actually…

I mean, I make things for the web, so I
should probably know this, but it seems

like it would just behave responsively.

You know, e- either I'm in a bigger
screen or I'm on a smaller screen.

But I'm sure there's more to
that that you can get into.

Chris: Does that, uh, we managed to make
it through most of this conversation

without saying the two-letter word,
but is part of the reason there's a

lot more puzzle games because of AI
or, and is there like some correlation

between if AI is used for developing
a puzzle game, the game is somehow

lesser than or better than or whatever?

How, how do you look at that, I
guess both personally as well as

just someone who plays these games?

Josh: I think it's probably fair to say
that it, that AI is partially responsible

for what we see in the explosion recently.

I, I know that, Inkwell
is a very small team.

They have only recently had a
full-time developer on board, and

so I, I know they have, relied
on AI for some things previously.

And, it's interesting.

I think I've, I've got a blog post
rattling around in my head about

this, um, that I should just get out.

I, I think about this a lot lately
because, I obviously didn't use

it previously when I was building
my games 'cause it didn't exist.

Um, I did use it on this one for a
few reasons, and partially because,

like, I would not be able to write the
puzzle generation algorithm by myself

in any reasonable amount of time.

but I was here, and it was
able to help me with that.

And, um, I guess the question you're kind
of asking is, like, is it vibe coded?

Or, like, are these
puzzle games vibe coded?

Are they worse if they're vibe coded?

And I think, I think vibe coding,
in the sense that some-- a, a lot

of times you, like, tell the machine
what to do and it does it, and you're

not typing the characters yourself.

Like, yeah, I sure did that.

in the sense that I'm just sloppily
throwing something out into the

world, carelessly, like, no,
I absolutely did not do that.

Um, I obsessed over every tiny detail
of this thing, and very frequently,

like, rejected what the machine was
giving me and was like, "No, no, no.

This is the wrong way to go about this.

I don't want that.

That's a bad idea."

so I, yeah.

Uh, there were kinda two
questions there, I guess.

Sure, we're seeing more of everything.

I see tons of vibe-coded puzzle
games, and some of them are

good, some of them are fun.

But I think you can tell when
the effort is not there and

when the care is not there.

And I hope that anybody who is
playing Tupo can see clearly,

like, I do really care about this.

This is something I'm very proud of and
that I really want to be very high quality

experience for anybody who plays it.

take that, uh, centrist, gray area
non-answer out of you, like, I guess.

Chris: It definitely isn't my
plan to turn this, uh, these

conversations into AI or not.

I feel like just given the temperature
of the room or whatever, and, and I

know in the Shop Talk Discord too,
where we know each other from, it's

kinda like this thing you-- everyone
kinda dances around a little bit and

dips one way or the other and try to
have sane conversations around it all,

while at the same time acknowledging
the complexity of the, the conversation.

So I think that's where, uh, to me,
the-- using Inkwell Games as a third

party here, it doesn't really change it.

Once I've played the game, to me,
it's like if they said it was 100%

vibe coded and they never even touched
any of the design somehow and made

it that good, I guess I probably
wouldn't care 'cause I like the game.

But I think before I play a game,
there would be a bit of like a, a tinge

of a flag of like, oh, it's all just
someone said, "Make me a game that

does this," and then they walked away.

You know, which obviously I think
you could tell if it was that.

Um, but, you know, that would
affect it somehow, that there's…

But I don't know

Josh: There's a guy I found on Bluesky
who's just been like churning out these

puzzle games, and they, they look…

they're all just like, um,
adaptations of well-known games,

um, that exist already, you know?

He, he has his own version of,
uh, I don't know if Minesweeper's

one or like, you know, it might
be Sudoku or Picross or whatever.

and they, they like look good, and
he's done a nice job with them,

but they are all very clearly like,
"Okay, I had the machine do this.

It's done.

Uh, I'm leaving now," kind of feel to it.

Inkwell definitely doesn't have that, and
I think they do actually have, uh, human

puzzle creators, if I recall correctly.

I think they've just relied on, um, LLMs
for some of the like technical stuff,

which like, a- again, you can tell.

Like it's evident that they
really care about this.

Like they have a community.

They, they put effort into this.

They are not…

maybe that's the real division
is like does this feel abandoned?

Does it feel like you just
actually don't care, like you

just are gonna walk away now?

Or does it feel like this is something
that somebody is putting effort into

and, and gives a shit about and is
gonna, like continue to care about

beyond like two weeks from now?

and like I can tell.

Like I've, I've chatted with,
uh, one of the founders, I,

I think is what she's called.

Ana-- I've, I've chatted
with Anastasia before.

Like I know that she, she's
very invested in this, that

she cares very much about this.

And, and I think it has to be
include more than what tool is used.

Like there's more to it than that.

The other side of this…

Okay, now I am not an AI apologist,
and if you read my blog, you know that.

but like you have to remember
like slop existed before AI did.

Like we didn't call it that.

It, uh, but it was all
over the internet already.

Like it, it, maybe we called it
spam, maybe we called it, you

know, whatever, SEO garbage.

But like you could do a bad job
very quickly on things way before

AI ever entered the conversation.

So, it's made it much
easier to do that, for sure.

but I think if you use it well, and
you are actually somebody who gives a

damn, you know, you can, it, it can…

It doesn't have to be the
outcome that the only thing you

can build with this is slop.

Chris: Yeah, that's what I think I
see a lot on social media is like

the, "I built this calendar app
that solved this thing that I didn't

like about other calendar apps."

But then you look at…

And you know that it's just like some
person developing it on a weekend.

It happened to fix their little
thing, and now it, they're not gonna

be around in six months to update it
when Apple, you know, changes iCal

support or whatever comes along.

And so I feel like that the scale of
those kinds of things has dramatically

gone up in terms of how many people can
do that, but it still is the same basic

idea of like someone's trying to get rich
or someone's trying to just scratch their

own itch quickly in one area, and they're,
they don't have the user experience or the

software experience, developer experience
to actually care about this on the same

level that someone you can tell puts,

Josh: It's kind of wild to think,
five years ago, what apps were

people installing on their phones?

And like think about now, and if you
just like exclude AI specifically from

that list, you'll probably have almost
exactly the same list as five years ago.

Like nothing has really
changed, it seems like to me.

like there isn't a, a new software
that isn't specifically AI.

Like now people are probably
installing like Claude or whatever.

But the fact that we see that nothing has
really changed in terms of what people

use for the most part on a day-to-day
basis, kind of tells us that it's really

about more than cheaply building the app.

It's like, sure, I could go and use your
calendar app that you vibed up over the

weekend, but this other calendar app that
I don't like as much does have a team of

humans that's making sure it's up to date,
and, seems like you don't have that, so

maybe I'm just gonna stick with this one.

Chris: the, the confidence of a mediocre
programmer vibe or something where it's

just like, "Hey, I, I hated playing
for $130 a year for ScreenFlow to

do, you know, screencast recordings
and editing, so I built my own."

To then say that as if you've
solved the problem that these

people who have been doing this
for, you know, however many years

have gotten stuck on,
but still are doing it.

And like, uh, I wish I could live with
that kind of confidence some days.

But like there's, there's a certain
arrogance and naivety or whatever

that's mixed up in all of that.

Like,

"I've cracked this," but

Josh: I c- just try to
imagine this in any other…

Like, if I was like, come home to
my wife one day and I was like:

"Hey, babe, I was tired of paying
the sewer bill, so guess what?

I installed our own water
treatment plant in the backyard."

Chris: Exactly.

Josh: um, okay, so glad we saved
the money, but I don't really want

to make my life about maintaining
water treatment plants, so

Chris: Exactly.

this is not a quick question.

I was g- but I was gonna end with
this, um, just because it's on my

mind 'cause my own kid is at this…

He's done high school.

W- had been planning to go into software
development, something computer science,

has been really scared off from doing it.

And so just as someone who's, you
know, a little further down the road

than someone, you know, just starting
university, what is your sort of answer

when friends, you know, grab your
ear at a pub or whatever for like,

"Hey, you, you do computer stuff.

What, what should I tell my kid to do?"

Josh: I don't think anybody has any idea.

And don't listen to the
people who think they know.

That's, that's my, that's my
answer, 'cause nobody knows.

The answer that I always gave people,
what has served me well in life isn't

necessarily being in a particular area
or anything, but it has for me, and

I'll emphasize that because what works
for me might not work for everyone,

but for me, what has always worked is
just chase what you're interested in.

Like, if you have something that
makes you go, "I want to learn about

that," then absolutely do that.

Like, I don't think you should
decide what you want to do.

I think you should decide
what you want to learn.

And, maybe that's not the end in itself.

Maybe that's just one stop along the
way and that node leads to another node.

But as long as you're excited
about what you're doing and you're,

like, feeling really energized by
putting it into your brain, then

that's going to take you somewhere

Chris: Yeah.

That's-- I think that's great advice.

And I'll pay you afterwards to say, "But
definitely go to university for four years

first," and

Josh: definitely, uh, above
all, do what your dad says.

That's the

Chris: Yeah, exactly.

Which actually I don't e- I, yeah, I
don't necessarily follow or believe

that completely either, but, uh, yeah.

Uh, that's a whole nother

Josh: I will say I didn't end up going
to college right away when I was,

uh, 18, and that's mostly because
I had no clue what I wanted to do.

That decision worked out well
for me because I feel like I

wouldn't have followed my advice.

I think I would've just picked
something that seemed like

a viable career, you know?

And I would've ended up hating being
an accountant or something like that.

Chris: Yeah, that's-- I can't

say much either 'cause I-- my
career that I, like editing

podcasts did not exist when I was…

I mean, you could say audio engineering,
I guess maybe I should've gone into

to learn more before I started.

But, but yeah, it definitely wasn't
a, a thing, a job that existed that I

could aim towards or anything like that.

So if I-- I'm still bitter that I
wanted to play video games for a living,

and my parents told me that was never
gonna be a career, and now I see people

streaming and playing video games
constantly for way more than I make.

But anyways, Where can, uh, just in
wrapping up, where can folks find you?

And I've mentioned some of
your websites and stuff, but,

Josh: my personal website
is joshcollinsworth.com.

but you're probably gonna be more
interested in playing a game than

reading about me, so you can,
uh, play Tupo at playtupo.com.

Chris: Sweet.

Yeah, I'd

Josh: by the way.

Chris: Yes.

I'll put that and all the other links to
things we talked about in the show notes

and including if you wanna figure out what
Cloudflare is, if, if you're not sure.

We won't, we won't badger Josh for
more explanation of tech right now,

Josh: I have a little bit of

a hard

time explaining to my family

Chris: Uh, as always, you can feel
free to reply to this post on social

media or in the comments on YouTube
or wherever you happen to see it, and

you can email me chris.enns@gmail.com

if you have questions or comments.

If you're not already subscribed to the
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Thanks for listening.

I hope you'll be back tomorrow.

Have a great day.

Bye.