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Every Tuesday on the CosmoFactory podcast: Discover the latest innovations along the cosmetics and personal care supply chain. Hear thought-provoking conversations with top beauty industry experts from around the world. Learn about next-level solutions and find inspiration to turn your own ideas into industry-changing innovations.
A PRODUCTION OF Cosmoprof Worldwide Bologna
CosmoFactory is the first podcast from Cosmoprof Worldwide Bologna—the most important beauty trade show in the world. Dedicated to all sectors of the industry, Cosmoprof Worldwide Bologna welcomes over 250,000 visitors from 150 countries and regions and nearly 3,000 exhibitors to Bologna, Italy, each year. It’s where our diverse and international industry comes together to build business relationships and to discover the best brands and newest innovations across consumer beauty, professional beauty, and the entire supply chain. The trade show includes a robust program of exclusive educational content, featuring executives and key opinion leaders from every sector of the cosmetics, fragrance, and personal care industry. Cosmoprof Worldwide Bologna is the most important event of the Cosmoprof international network, with exhibitions in Asia (Hong Kong), the US (Las Vegas and Miami), India (Mumbai) and Thailand (Bangkok). Thanks to its global exhibitions Cosmoprof connects a community of more than 500,000 beauty stakeholders and 10,000 companies from 190 countries and regions. Learn more today at Cosmoprof.com
CosmoFactory was co-developed in collaboration with supply-side expert Deanna Utroske, Host of the CosmoFactory podcast and Editor of the Beauty Insights newsletter.
Deanna: [00:00:00] This episode is about functional proteins, signaling proteins, and biopeptides. It's about animal cell culture technology. It's about next generation skincare ingredients, and it's about the future of biotech beauty. My guest today on the Cosmo Factory podcast is Carrie Chen, co founder and CEO of Avant.
Deanna: Welcome.
Carrie: Thank you very much, Deanna, for this opportunity to be here today, speaking with you.
Deanna: Yes, no, [00:01:00] I'm so glad you could join us. Avant is the name of the company that you lead, but we're really here, uh, to talk about a biotech platform that you've developed called Zellulin. Uh, will you just tell us about that?
Carrie: Yes, definitely. Um, cellulin is basically describing a method that, um, the technology involves taking cells from an animal. In this case, it's fish. We take the cell one time and one time only. And once the cells are adapted to the environment of outside of the animal bodies, then we use the bioprocess to produce a lot more of that animal cells, which is in a totally traceable and cellulite environment in the bioreactor.
Carrie: And then the platform actually do the second step, which basically we harvest all of the cells. We break open the cell membrane and release all of the material inside the cells, which we find a lot of very useful material and component, including signaling protein. And then we also have a process to basically break down this [00:02:00] large monocle into smaller chain of peptides.
Carrie: So that is easier for a skin to absorb. And voila, that is the, um, cellulite at the end of the platform. Um,
Deanna: Perfect. Thank you for that. And, You and I actually met at Cosmopack Asia in Hong Kong this past November. And if I recall correctly, uh, your R& D facility is located there in Hong Kong, but you have a production facilities elsewhere. Can you just, uh, tell us more specifically what's going on at the various locations of your company?
Carrie: Yes, indeed. Um, in Hong Kong Science Park, we have our R& D lab where we develop the core technology from the beginning, taking the cells as well as growing the cells and then all of the medium that we need to feed to the cell. And in Singapore is our pilot facility. And basically we do the largest scale production bioprocess there.
Carrie: We have, um, a bioreactor in, um, 250 litre size in which We grow a lot of cells and, um, we have [00:03:00] a, uh, that facility is also certified, uh, ISO 22 7 1 6. So that means that we are up to the, um, skincare GMP standard in terms of the quality.
Deanna: Very good. Thank you for that. And then speaking of skincare, as we are here, help me think more about those skincare ingredients that you're producing with the cell culture biotech.
Carrie: Yeah, definitely. So the concept is like this, uh, so animal cells, um, uh, any cells actually produce a lot of material for its own function and purposes. Sometimes the, some proteins are for communicating between different cells and et cetera. And, um, um, And do recognize that biologically, uh, human, our skin, actually, uh, we are animals, right?
Carrie: So, uh, our skin actually, or our body produce, um, proteins, or those kind of molecules, very different from plant. So, um, from my perspective, because I think, um, uh, making use [00:04:00] of, um, animal, uh, very similar kind of like biomaterial peptides will be very, uh, definitely directly more biologically relevant to our skin cells.
Carrie: So what happened is that when I, I described about how we do the process, right? So let me explain what happened inside the cell when we break open the membrane. And there are a lot of different proteins, basically hundreds of them. And some of them we are very familiar, for example, collagen, et cetera. And there are also some names that we are not that familiar, familiar with, as of now, in terms of the skin care.
Carrie: Proteins such as Decarin, Fulvolin, Connective Tissue Growth Factors, um, Mimican, etc. So these protein actually exists. They have been individually studied because they do exist inside our bodies and they have been actually, uh, prepare, um, using precision fermentation method for the medical and R& D applications.[00:05:00]
Carrie: Um, they are not currently available in the skincare active. Um, so they are actually quite expensive using the current way of production. So what is the interesting situation here is that we can produce these material Um, multitude of them, uh, all of them actually. So we are actually multi peptides in one goal, in the proportion that our cells naturally produce them, that they work in a synergy.
Carrie: And, um, so we actually have all of these signal protein, uh, for our skin benefit. For example, I can, um, explain a little bit fulbilin. Fulbilin is a signal protein that help the elastic fiber uh, Of our skin to form. So what we see is that in the efficacy test, um, we see that the, um, the, uh, subject actually using, um, the product, um, they have actually the.
Carrie: Skin elasticity improved after using our product, uh, for a few weeks. So, um, so we see a lot of correlation between [00:06:00] the functioning, uh, functioning protein that we find in the, uh, cells that we break open and then then benefit on the, um, on the skin in different, um, uh, tests that we have conducted by, uh, third party lab.
Deanna: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. No, it's so interesting. I think it's, it's very curious to think about the advantages of an ingredient here that comprises both what I think of as functional proteins, right, that reinforce the ECM, like collagen and elastin, as you've mentioned, but then also these signaling proteins. Do you have any other, um, clinical data you can share to, to help me think about that further?
Deanna: Okay. Mm
Carrie: Um, yeah. So, uh, we have conducted the, um, efficacy test, which is a, uh, placebo control single blind product, uh, sorry, test. And then, um, the benefit is that, uh, the material actually compared to the placebo group, uh, it, it, it did a lot more better, like between three times to five times better in terms of keeping the skin hydrated.
Carrie: Preventing water loss, increasing elasticity, firmness, as well as the [00:07:00] collagen, uh, density of the skin. And, um, we also have conducted consumer perception tests, uh, basically asking, um, a group of, uh, user to use that for a few weeks, and then we ask them the, the, the feeling on the skin. And, uh, they also find that it help in all of this area that I've just mentioned.
Carrie: And so, these are the other tests that we have also conducted, um, in a formulated product. Thanks a lot.
Deanna: It's interesting. Sometimes we hear like consumer perception or user reported data, and it's easy to feel like that can be very anecdotal. But I think it's also so nice when the clinical data that you're seeing matches with user experience, because you as a consumer, you very much want to believe the claims.
Deanna: And I think that that helps help sort of sell it as it were. So that's nice to hear. Um, I'm curious, um, For some of the R& D folks listening, or cosmetic scientists who might be interested in working with an ingredient like this, [00:08:00] can you, can you tell us, is this liquid form, powder form, does it smell funny, what color is it, how much, how much, what sort of percentage would they use?
Deanna: Help us think about formulation details.
Carrie: Yeah, definitely. So it's an aqueous base, so it's very easy to work with any formulation that is water based. Um, and it's basically have very, very, very light, uh, vegetable kind of flavor. It doesn't taste like, doesn't smell fishy at all. Um, we do need to preserve because it's a peptide, it's quite organic in material.
Carrie: So if, even though we prepare in a very clean environment to basically make sure that it is, uh, uh, Basically, uh, free from bacteria. So we do introduce a couple of, uh, very commonly used preservative. Uh, so that actually gives some hint of like, uh, yellowish color to the ingredient. Uh, we supply that in solution form because it's much easier to be used.
Carrie: Um, uh, formulator and manufacturer would not need to rehydrate them. So, uh, it's [00:09:00] basically a 10 percent solution and it can be diluted into 1%, uh, basically one to one part to nine part. Um, that will be basically, uh, will be at the same, uh, dosage that we conducted the efficacy test. But of course there are also benefit with these ingredient with hydration.
Carrie: So, uh, other percentage would also be viable for formulation depending on the use cases as well as the product claims.
Deanna: Interesting. Thank you for that. Um, and, and you did mention that, you know, some of the more, shall we call them lesser known proteins, right, are, are being produced, um, for other industries. Um, but there is something, you know, that really differentiates the Xelulin platform, as I understand it, um, from biotech fermentation or conditioned medium to produce similar ingredients.
Deanna: Can you help us think about those distinctions?
Carrie: Yeah, this is actually a very great, great question. Um, imagine, like, compare that, um, compare, [00:10:00] for example, if we want to replenish, uh, collagen, or EGF, or something like that, individual component or molecule, is very similar to taking supplements. For example, vitamin B, vitamin C, basically very focused on one, um, one molecule only.
Carrie: But as we know, um, um, We cannot survive on eating only peels, like we cannot eat vitamin A to EZ. It will never be in, it will never be identical to eating even an apple. So in this case, it's actually very interesting is that we have all of the trace, uh, trace materials. So we do not need a lot of this. We do not need a lot of EGF.
Carrie: We do not need a lot of decarin. Indeed, they don't exist in a very large amount in the whole mixture of the peptide. That is the beauty of that because the proportion between this element and that element is determined by the nature, by the cells when they produce. That's why we call our cell nature cooked peptide because it's mixed in a [00:11:00] way and it's the mixture, the different components, as well as the ratio between the peptides.
Carrie: The dam actually in a balanced way that, um, is naturally occurring in an animal cell. And, uh, because of that, there will be no, um, risk of overdosage because we have heard about vitamin, vitamin A and the other we can overdose, uh, if we do not use that, uh, cautiously. In this case, I would say that none of this component will be overdosed because you can imagine that we can overdose on apple or overdose on eating food in that regard.
Carrie: So I think I personally see that is very similar to having a tonic food or nutrient for our skin. Um, basically naturally derived and then they can be absorbed directly by our skin cells.
Deanna: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And tell me if I have this correct, but it feels to me like this ingredient is really just more holistic than some of the other ingredients, um, that might be similar insofar as, um, you know, if a collagen is produced by fermentation, for instance, it's only [00:12:00] collagen that's being produced, um, whereas you're, you're getting sort of the everything, as it
Carrie: Yes, exactly. Like, uh, you can imagine like squashing and that method exists that you squash the whole fish or like, or you squash the whole apple. And then that is in a form that is digestible by our skin cells. So basically you infuse everything into your skin that they need to, uh, conduct a proper functioning.
Deanna: Yeah, yeah, very good. Um, and I'm curious if you would just tell me a bit about your background. What inspired you one day to wake up and decide to grow fish cells for skin care?
Carrie: Yeah, that's a very another very great question. Uh, the company started with the aim of trying to reduce, uh, our dependency on animal for different kind of lifestyle needs and nutritional needs such as food, such as, um, uh, and skincare product. Um, so, uh, the, we, we are a biotech company. We, our core technology is really growing cells.
Carrie: [00:13:00] And in this case, we've chosen to. Grow fish. Um, there are also a lot of benefit when it comes to food as well, because we grow them in a way that we don't have any heavy metals. So when it comes to food, then it will not be having any marine pollutants or heavy metal in the final fish fillet product. For example, uh, I myself actually been, uh, trying to avoid animal product for a number of years.
Carrie: Uh, I call myself plant based, uh, when it comes to food in skincare, actually, I start to pay attention to the ingredient for a few, food. number of years. And then, um, I realized that, okay, there are some ingredients I should skip, for example, uh, traditionally make, uh, animal based collagen, um, et cetera. So, uh, then, but then I find that, okay, um, I know that I am, uh, I am, I, I'm human, right?
Carrie: Then my skin is actually animal skin cells. So I know that there are also some very, uh, interesting plant based, uh, uh, ingredient, but then. I, I think that, um, [00:14:00] nothing is, uh, better than biologically similar to my skin cell. So I'd be very curious about if there's any way that we can, like, achieve that. So, uh, very quickly after the company started, we think about what may be the application of the technology.
Carrie: And in addition to food, we believe that skincare is one of the very, uh, very, um, directly applicable, um, fields. So that's why we, we went ahead to, uh, do a lot of an, an analysis and even created a, a few patterns. We have three patterns related to this technology now. Um, and, um, and then, yeah, we went ahead to develop the product.
Carrie: We need to analyze what is the benefit of this multi peptide on the skin cell. Okay. In the laboratory, verify that in vitro for some time, and then we need to conduct a human test, right? And then efficacy test and consumer test. So it has a very long journey. We, it took us a few years, actually.
Deanna: Certainly. No, that makes very good sense. Thank you. Um, and you [00:15:00] know, from everything you've shared with us so far, it sounds like this is, you know, very fish friendly or animal friendly ingredient development process. Um, you know, you mentioned, we know with cell culture technology, You take cells from an animal literally one time, and that's it.
Deanna: Um, but I'm wondering if you're able to make halal or kosher or even vegan claims. How does, how does this fit into the conversation about animal ethics?
Carrie: Yes. Um, so this is a topic very relevant to the, uh, the whole cell cultivated product, uh, in, in different sense. Um, for HALA, I think because our, it's a bit more straightforward, um, because the, we don't have any, so because we work on fish, so fish, uh, uh, basically depending on the, most of the fish species, the species we use actually is not non HALA.
Carrie: And then in a process, we don't use any non halal material and the equipment, the set of facility do not share with any production using non halal. So we're [00:16:00] actually, um, working, um, to get the halal certification for that, which we already have ISO, so everything is traceable. So it's basically, we're going to have that, uh, that box checked in 2025.
Carrie: That's our target. Um, in terms of vegan, I think, Um, I read in the news, Vegan Society already make very clear today, I think recently, that, uh, self cultivated product cannot be called vegan. I fully understand that. Um, so I think in this case, it would not be a vegan product. Um, and, uh, for kosher, we have not started looking into the detail and the requirement of that.
Carrie: Uh, but definitely it's an area we're interested to, uh, uh, to explore whether we fit into that, um, definition later on.
Deanna: Thank you. No, I really appreciate that. It's, um, definitely an ongoing conversation in beauty. So I appreciate your sharing in such detail there. Um, so. Here we're talking about fish cells, right? We know cell culture tech, um, involves growing cells without the actual organism being present. But I do also want to mention an earlier episode of the Cosmofactory [00:17:00] podcast where we learned about cosmetic ingredients produced using plant cell culture technology.
Deanna: Um, back in episode 12, I spoke with the Chile based company called Rubisco Biotechnology. Um, and so if you haven't heard that yet, please do go back and listen to episode 12, um, when you're finished with this episode today. Um, I think I have two, one or two more questions for you, Carrie. Um, we know that, um, a majority of cosmetic ingredient makers serve other industries, right, with technology.
Deanna: Sometimes it's pharma, sometimes it's, uh, textiles. You've mentioned that your technology has applications in food. Can you, can you tell me a little bit more about where Avant fits in this world of cellular agriculture? And I guess alternative meats?
Carrie: Right, right. Yes. Uh, okay. Yeah, that's, that's, uh, that's a good term. Uh, we are the first, uh, we are Asia's first, uh, cultivated fish company. Uh, when we started, uh, back in 2018, I think, [00:18:00] um, the whole alternative protein, uh, trend in particular cultivated meat started around 2013. And 13 around that time with a, uh, professor Mark Poe, uh, demonstrated that this technology can be.
Carrie: can prepare and produce a hamburger, uh, in the lab without the, without the, the cow, uh, starting with the cells only. And then I think that that is the beginning. That was the beginning of this industry. And, uh, by 2018, I think quite a number of companies already exist in other continents. Uh, in Asia, there are, um, one or two, uh, to begin with.
Carrie: Uh, we are the first one, actually, uh, uh, very focusing on the fish, uh, cell cultivation and definitely the first one in the Greater China Area. Uh, and yeah, we have the first lab in Hong Kong Science Park.
Deanna: Yeah, no, so cool, so cool. And just remind me, um, which fish are you working with for skin care and are you working with others in, in, um, in ag?
Carrie: Yeah, we have many different fish cell [00:19:00] lines. We have grouper with snapper, um, brooker. And for this particular, uh, uh, the first product, uh, from this platform, uh, we are using a, uh, freshwater fish, uh, under the, um, the family of carp. The reason because that we find this particular cell, uh, cell line is very, um, durable and a very robust.
Carrie: And they're very actually energetic. And so basically it is continuously growing very well in the bioprocess. And so, uh, and also from the data we looked at, like the, and, uh, the peptide that we, uh, test on human skin cell lines, it actually, uh, Uh, done a very good job in uplifting, uh, gene expressions in different kind of like, um, uh, material like gene that is related to skin health.
Carrie: Um, so I think that is the reason why we choose these, uh, fish to begin with our product. And we already, uh, developing other, uh, species, um, other cell type, um, also from the marine [00:20:00] source, uh, for our, uh, future second and third product.
Deanna: Yeah, and, and I realize, um, your company is quite new, um, as, as you've said, but you are looking to the future already. Can you help us think about what, what might be coming next from Zelulin, especially in the world of beauty?
Carrie: Yeah, so we have, we actually have, uh, have found that actually the, uh, the multi peptide work very well with another active ingredient. So, uh, it basically boosts, uh, uh, the difference to, uh, like cellulite alone and then the other active ingredient alone, they have a certain function. But when we combine them together, in some of the benefits actually multiply.
Carrie: So, that is the second product we are going, we are doing quite a bit of the product development now and hopefully to be launched in the later part of 2025. As I mentioned, we also have other fish cells that we're working with and so that will probably come in, um, [00:21:00] in the future. In the subsequent year as our third product.
Deanna: Sure, sure, very cool. And I'm actually going to, um, ask one more question. Okay. Um, before we finish up here, you know, you know, other ocean ingredients, right, especially marine collagen and ingredients derived from algae are quite popular now and increasingly common in beauty, um, arguably your ingredients originate, um, you said this was a freshwater fish, but I think it, you know, there's sort of a, a piece of it there that feels very ocean related.
Deanna: Um, I'm wondering how you sort of fit into that marine beauty conversation or, or do you? Um,
Carrie: I think we definitely fit into that in a broader sense more about biodiversity like, um, marine or water, you know, um, biodiversity does not only have problem with the ocean because overfishing, pollution, acidification of the ocean, but also, uh, like even, uh, rivers, like major rivers in some, some part of the world.
Carrie: Um, I think, uh, the overfishing is also a [00:22:00] very big problem. there. So I think we fit into there. And I think, uh, we also engage a third party consultant to review the carbon footprint. So compared to traditional fish collagen, um, our carbon emission is actually, uh, much lower. traditional um, fish collagen and definitely much lower than bovine collagen.
Carrie: I think if you look at the how things happen in, is that like a fish if we want to take collagen only they, there are the body weight about between not more than 10%, 5 percent something. is the scale and the skin and the tail and everything. Those are the part that we need to conduct quite a lot of extraction process to extract the collagen.
Carrie: So that's why the carbon footprint tends to be relatively higher while our process make the only thing that we need and then everything is converted into the peptide. So in, in that sense, um, that's why we have also a lower carbon footprint, uh, as well. [00:23:00] Um, so that's. Basically go into the conversation of sustainable skin care now, which is very much like a conscious trend among consumer and also the industry.
Deanna: Yeah, no, I really appreciate that answer because I think one of the things that has made marine beauty so exciting for consumers and for the industry have has a lot to do with the sustainability and and biodiversity story. So that's, that's, that's great. I'm so glad you shared that. And I have to say, this was a very intriguing conversation.
Deanna: Carrie, I thank you for speaking with me on the Cosmo Factory podcast.
Carrie: Thank you so much, Deanna. I'm I'm very enjoyed the conversation and feel free to get in touch. We can definitely share more with those who are interested in the formulation or using this in their in the product.
Deanna: Yes, thank you so much.
Carrie: Thank you.
[00:24:00]