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Welcome to the 'Lead Smarter. Not Harder' Podcast by David Kent, your window into the minds of visionary leaders, trailblazing innovators, and savvy business owners.
Get ready to immerse yourself in the captivating stories and invaluable lessons from the best and brightest minds in the business.
welcome to Lead Smarter
the podcast where you'll hear powerful
no nonsense conversations about leadership
with today's top experts
and real world leaders like yourself
get the inside strategies
insights and secrets
they've Learned on the journey to lead smarter
let's dive in
today's guest is Ben Arendt
Ben is the author of how to suck less as a manager
and the founder of Depth Charge Consulting
where he works with executives
and go to market leaders to improve leadership
quality and team performance
he's spent years advising leaders across industries
including his time in intelligence
with the US government
where he helped organizations drive growth
transformation and better leadership outcomes
in this conversation we get into why so many managers
aren't actually equipped to lead
and what separates the ones who are
we talk about self awareness
emotional regulation and the dirty
nitty
gritty of what it really looks like to lead people
we also cover something I found really practical
the idea of small intentional actions or sugar cubes
like he calls them
that build trust and motivation inside a team
that's enough peeking behind the curtain
time to join the conversation
hey Ben
thank you again
for joining us on the Lead Smarter podcast
I had a great time getting to meet with you
and learn more about you
and your leadership background
and like a little bit of your style and the kind of
even the book that you've written and released
how to suck less as a manager
I want to make sure I got that right
because I've said it now a couple of times
that didn't suck David
that was really good great
well thank you again
I also
wanted to just kind of dive into some of the topics
we talked about when we first got a chance to meet
uh one of the things you gave just as a stat
which I thought was really interesting
kind of LED into our conversation
which was about 81% of managers
you said aren't qualified
I think you mentioned that was kind of
a stat that came from a couple years ago
so
maybe even more than 81% of managers aren't qualified
I was curious like
what patterns do you consistently
see that put them in that category of not qualified
yeah I
it's funny
I don't think I've ever had anyone disagree with that
cause you would think like
81% is so
ridiculously high that all of us should be like no
that's a terrible no there's no way
but all of us might have that first reaction wait
and then go OK
I could see it
so so the stat itself is not from my own research
that's from a Business Wire article
that basically looked at
individuals selected for management roles
and found that on average
only 19% of them possess the top five or six
qualities that that publication
thought were most crucial to being an effective people
leader things like the ability to form relationships
accountability time management so some of these things
I think I'd probably add a couple more
I know a big one that you and I talked about that
that I mentioned a lot in the book
is emotional regulation and self awareness
and in that vein I would say you know
19% seems about right I think one in five is
is
a rough approximation of the number of people I've met
that you know
anecdotally
have the willingness to examine themselves and say hey
where am I really good and where do I need improvement
and for me that's one of the key components
that differentiates somebody
who's a really effective leader
from somebody who is in a management role and
and maybe shouldn't be now
there's a lot of different capabilities
and competencies and skills
whatever verbiage you wanna use
that can make someone an effective leader
but being good at at
leading others
is a combination of being able to form connection
and get people to do things
and also keep yourself cool under pressure and
and send separate out the things that you might feel
or that might come in whether it's pressure or stress
or issues with the people on your team
from the way you act
a lot similar to being a good partner
being a good parent so yeah
for me I haven't redone the research
I think that came out in 2022
I would hope it hasn't gone down because if it does
that's even that's I will say I have a lot of friends
connections
and colleagues coming to me for career advice
because they want to switch
because they don't like their manager
but I hope it hasn't gone down
I don't know David
maybe you have some perspective
after being on this podcast
and talking to so many great leaders
I I think part of
what I've enjoyed from this podcast
is getting a chance to be exposed to
maybe a higher density of good leaders um
but I think from your experience
what you've described and from my experience similarly
yeah I
I unfortunately
think I'm maybe in that same bucket of people that
thought about this stat thinking oh
that's a lot but it sounds right
haha you from your come from actually
you just telling me about it made me wonder just now
it's like you know what I wonder if I took that test
I wonder like what is qualified based on that test
I would be really interested
like I could say myself sure
81% of people that I've met that are leaders
they shouldn't be leaders
but should I be in that 81%
I mean I wanna believe no right
like I wanna believe that I'm qualified
but I'd be curious but I mean
the fact that you're asking that question is already no
but seriously cause
there are too many situations that we fall into
where people get promoted into leadership
because that's like
the next thing they need to do to get right
advanced in their career and the truth is
not everyone
is going to be able to effectively lead other people
so you know
we're constantly put into this situation where people
may not have the core abilities
maybe your company is actually even evaluating this
you know a lot of them don't even look
when they promote somebody
is that person ready
some companies that do might say no
but we're putting them there anyway
but right for situations where that person uh
you know doesn't have those those skills naturally
you can absolutely develop them
so just the fact that you're if you're like hey
I don't know if I'm in there
the fact that you're even willing to doubt yourself
means you're self aware enough
that
if you didn't feel like you were doing a great job
you would go and try to improve yourself so David
I pronounce you based on the power invested in me
a good leader well
thank you yeah
and um I
that's interesting
because you're saying I may be in that 81%
if I just had the firm conviction that I am not
yes I think that paradoxically
that is the logic that we're gonna follow
for the remainder how much longer we're gonna go
half an hour yes right
I think yeah that's
so that's whatever you just said
is what we're gonna go with the remainder of that time
perfect
it's like the wise man knows he isn't wise right
so there we go exactly paradox listeners enjoy that
yeah well
I mean and just to address the people that maybe
don't fall into the category
if if a leader can only change one habit
starting tomorrow to become part of that 19%
what would you say is the
the most common thing that people could address
to try to be better leaders
or try to fall into the qualified category
I I love that
I think there's two things you can do right away
and uh for me
the No. 1 is just have a conversation with yourself
where am I strong and where am I not
and this comes down to a lot of things like you know
there's a lot of leaders who feel like
they need to be the smartest person in the room
for example and in reality
none of us is gonna be the best at everything
but if you're a people leader
that's not really your job
your job is to be the person who helps
all the other people succeed
and set them up for success
so if you're willing to have the conversation
with yourself hey
where am I strong and where do I need a little help
it immediately tells you where you can lean on
and potentially trust others on your team
and where you might want to spend a little extra time
either getting to know more or improving your craft
I think the other one if
if you don't like that one
you know hey Ben
I don't I'm not interested in that
give me something else
figure out what makes you get emotionally dysregulated
I mean you know
you're getting upset you're getting stressed
you shut down you get angry
all of us have emotions uh
that's you know
actually I should shouldn't say
I've met some people who
somehow are completely devoid of them
those people notwithstanding most
it's more than 81% of us have emotions of some kind
right and right
whether I I just brought up the parent or the spouse
right I think every uh
you know uh
couple fights at some point
every parent uh
you know occasionally is gonna get upset or
or get stressed out
and maybe that comes out at their kid in the same way
if you're a leader there are gonna be situations
you're in that stress you out
and you may not show up as well as you do normally
so take a minute and think about when those situations
are occurring because then you can anticipate them
and then the next time you run into a situation
you show up better for your team
by being able to regulate yourself
and stay cool under pressure
as as interesting
I like that you gave the spouse example
it actually kind of goes into a
a question I wanted to ask you
that we've actually talked about before really
that like you're spending largely more time at work
being
directly engaging with the leader or your manager
probably more than your own spouse literally yeah
given that reality I kind of want to know
what do you think the responsibility of a leader is
recognizing
that kind of weight that they have on their team
yeah David
thank you for that
when you said I was speaking of spouses
I was like oh oh
what are you about to tell me
that's right uh
you know it's
it's I am very happily married and very uh
grateful for my my partner
and I was worried you were gonna tell me that
you know you knew something otherwise
but anyway the uh
joking aside by the way listeners
I'm an ex comedian you know
I just wanna throw that out there uh
opportunities like this you gotta have some fun right
at the end of the day
we've all been in situations with terrible managers
we've been terrible managers ourselves sometimes
on the flip side
we've all also had people in our lives
that enabled us to feel
and do things that we never would have done before
so I like having fun with this topic
hopefully you guys do too but to the question David
that you were asking at this point
we're spending more time with our spouses
there was a a study that was done
and off the tip of my tongue
I can't quite remember the source
but it was looking at mental health
impact from different figures in your life
it looked at doctors it looked at therapists
it looked at spouses
and it actually found that your spouse
and your direct boss
are the individuals that have the most impact
on your mental health by like 50%
more than even a therapist
and it's David it's exactly the point you brought up
it's we spend a lot of time with them potentially
but also they have so much control
over something that we don't have control over
like we have to go to work most of us right
we have to earn a living we
almost always
don't get to choose the people that we report to
and yet they control
the narrative that those around our organization
see and perceive about us
how we are able to or not able
to get promoted or
or advance and how our work is perceived
there is so much wrapped up into our happiness
tied to that that yes
managers is is extremely powerful responsibility
that you have at your fingertips to
to potentially influence somebody's overall life
satisfaction right
and I think that gets back to earlier point
I suggest with the companies that I work with
we have to stop assuming that management
is this rite of passage
or something that everyone does
and instead
start perceiving it as something incredibly important
as a responsibility that requires dedication focus
input and training
so that we know that the individuals
rising to this responsibility are
are aware of what they're doing
and how they're impacting people
I love the perspective that you're coming from
which basically is the I like
as somebody who's trying to help organizations
elevate their their leaders and their management
I actually talk to my own clients
from almost the opposite end right
I'm I'm trying to introduce team members
and I'm trying to identify like these a players
and I and I have to tell people that maybe I'm not
not involved in the conversations
with how to help the managers really
I really only try to advise that
if your leadership
and your management isn't really solid
and I'm bringing you a players
the thing about a players is they usually have choices
um and if you're not going to have an environment
that they would choose
then retention's gonna be a struggle for in
if you want a players
retention is really gonna be a struggle
and one of the things you mentioned is
you know not everybody gets to choose
and I and that's that's right
like it is tough
there are people that just have to suffer with
leadership or management
that's suboptimal
but companies that really want to do well
recognize they
want people that would absolutely choose to be there
and they have to
then invest in that kind of leadership
so that they can be that kind of environment
I don't know where I was going with this
other than recognizing the conversation from the no
but I think you bring up a great point
which is what we're talking about
you know I
I get into the touchy feelys a lot
cause I'm saying things like emotional regulation
and it's a responsibility
the reason people hire me is because
if you can lead your your individuals effectively
you're talking about real money
you know cause you brought up the point retention
that's expensive it's funny when I started all of this
people had options you know
you could go to other companies
job market the way it is
that hasn't been as much an issue
for the past couple of years
although if like you said
if you're top talent
you can still pretty much choose where you wanna go
and I think it'll be a a job searchers
market as opposed to a job offerers market
you know not too too far future
but let's say your people don't leave your a players
they're still not working as hard as they would
if they were motivated right
that whole quiet quitting piece
depending on where you're looking
there's data that can
support anywhere from a 20% different
you know ROI to 50% and sometimes even more
if you think about systemic impact of people
quiet quitting and
and maybe having a negative view of the company
they're working for right
this isn't just the right thing to do to make people
happy like right
that was what I LED with
you want your business to succeed
you gotta get the people that you're paying money for
that you're paying their salary
to produce at the level that they're capable of
the way to do that is get them aligned to a
a person that understands them that believes them
that can get them or believes in them
can get them motivated
and helps remove a lot of that friction too
so it's not just the emotional piece
it's also
clearing the way for those people to do great work
right and when you talk about motivated um
you'd mentioned in our conversations
like you'd mentioned sugar cubes
oh yeah from managers
like small meaningful actions that they can take
what are some examples of that that you could give
like that leaders are overlooking
what are these sugar cubes that you told me about yeah
and I I stole this idea
this sugar cube concept from one of my own managers
now that I'm hearing you say it
I'm were they trying to refer to me as like
a horse'cause I think you give sugar cubes
that's right I mean
I'll take it I've been called worse animals for sure
um the idea is just like little rewards
day to day some of us are in jobs
where we get to see the direct impact of the work we do
or we are motivated by our impact on the client
but a lot of us do long term projects
or projects that are you know
detached from the actual impact that we have
so as a manager
one of the powerful things you can do is create moments
where an individual feels some validation
recognition satisfaction
and it doesn't even have to be that complicated
maybe not just give a sugar cube
but one example I always love to share is
I worked previously for the US government
back in the day
and I remember we were in a very stressful
one of the intelligence organizations
we were in a very stressful period
and a colleague of mine had worked
basically three days in a row
with very little sleep missed his family
didn't get to go home it was very
but he did a great job and his manager's manager
knowing that that individual had been really
just burning the midnight oil at his desk
took the time to go to the
the canteen that we had at the compound
and bought him some Pop Tarts
specifically Cherry Pop Tarts
cause those were his favorite
and brought him to his desk and said hey
I know you didn't get to you know
go home and eat here's here's a little something
and that colleague of mine told me that
that was the most meaningful thing
that had happened to him in years
and it wasn't even more so than getting a raise
he got a bonus after this was over
a monetary award that meant more to him
because somebody who he knew to be busy
who he respected
took time out of their day to think about what he
my friend specifically liked
and what would mean something to him
and then took the time to go ahead and present it
personally it was a recognition
but with something on top that said hey
I see you and I know you can be that easy right
Pop Tarts cost five bucks right
well I don't know what they cost now with inflation
but back then it was five bucks yeah
it could be as simple as shooting someone an email
but it shouldn't be limited to that
you got a lot of options right
you can say something positive about somebody
in a group meeting you can
I used to do this all the time
phone up my boss or my CEO and say hey
Austin is doing an awesome job
can you can I
if I write you something can you send it to them
because sometimes it means a lot more coming from right
a big boss that took me five or 10 minutes to do
my CEO is happy to do it and
and that made that person on my team uh
feel heard validated and
and helped them get the energy to
continue doing the great work that they were doing
so those are some sugar cubes and some
some Pop Tarts as it were David
that's awesome I
I love that you you're literally like
stringing together in some of your efforts
you gave an example
where you're getting others involved to help
like create more of like a
a network of positive resilience in the team
and like a positive experience for the team
it's you're not only trying to develop that person
not only developing
maybe even your relationship with that person
but you're developing the relationship
and the cohesiveness of the team intentionally
because you know what they care about
absolutely I
I will look for those opportunities as well
I recognize I'm not always the right person to deliver
this message I'm literally on a call with you right now
because I don't want to be the one
delivering a message of leadership
and how to manage yourself
to a client of mine as an example
cause I'm not the right source and I'm not
you know I not only am I not the right source
but I may not even have the expertise um
so sometimes I call that like
I think maybe this is a bad term
I almost I use this often where I say like
I could use help with like track 2 diplomacy
a team member you could definitely be a better like
source of information for this thing than I am
maybe they won't be heard from
coming from me or received well anyways
I just love the example so thank you for giving that
and
it also made me think about the fact that there are
specific environments even that really
really like
that level of like
positive energy management is like critical
and I was thinking about
when we talked about how you actually kind of
do a lot of work with sales teams yes
where you know
like I can say yeah
everybody needs to have like
positive energy and like affirmations and support
but like in a sales team that's almost like your fuel
like without it
you're totally empty and nothing gets done
like in fact it may even work in the opposite
you guys may start tanking the relationships
by working through desperation and negative feelings
it feels like it's just got a lot closer relationship
and I'm really interested on your perspective
in that space
sales is is funny
I David
I think you meant you've been in sales before right
I've I literally I guess
technically I'm in it as a founder of a company yeah
so yeah I'm definitely in it yeah
it sucks it does
it's there
the number I so I've been working in the sales
you know like in sporting sales teams and
and their leaders for a while now
first at CNB then Garner
then challenger
and I was fascinated with sales as a subculture
cause I grew up in the government
the public sector and then came to the private sector
and it is a very different culture
and I guess it has to be
because the type of job you have is so stressful
and you go through you know
your quarter by quarter and your fiscal year
and then it starts all over again
and you're struggling constantly
until you're not struggling
it's a lot and because of that because of that stress
I think first it attracts certain people uh
and I was I was gonna start
I've worked with literally thousands
maybe 10 thousands
sales professionals over my lifetime
and it's rare I've met one that said
this is what I intended to do with my career
usually it's just kind of did it by a chance
and then realize I actually kind of like this
so the people who get
end up sucked into the black hole of sales
it's it's a diverse crowd
but they tend to have some things in common
and because their job is so much
governed by their own effort
it's hard to motivate them to do things differently
or to change
if something doesn't like
immediately appear like it's gonna
like help them close a deal
it can be hard to convince them to do something
I always say of
of the parts of an organization to do change
management with sales is the hardest
followed closely by engineering engineering
you know why
I'll leave that up to their imagination there
the engineers on the line knows that
but okay with this with the that if you know engineers
the joke would land anyway
but sellers so there's a lot of resistance to change
there's a lot of emotions involved
the other piece is to succeed as a seller
requires a certain skill set that is very different and
and really doesn't have a whole lot of overlap at all
with what it takes to be an effective leader
okay there's some time management overlap
but otherwise it's uh you know
being focused being confident
continuing down a certain path
risk taking
in some cases bouncing back from setbacks in contrast
the things around
emotional regulation attachment relationship building
empathy
the things that make you really effective at creating
connection with other people
and leading them aren't there
necessarily by default so
what we see in sales
is that it is among the widest gaps
inability in managers
because a lot of the folks that are
promoted are inherently really effective sellers
who then come to the table
leading a team
having not really experienced managing others
and without that core
skill set that we brought up earlier
the result then is
there's a couple situations that can happen
one is they really apply the pressure
that's what works for them
that's how they operate
they get frustrated and it comes out
another one that happens a lot is a sales leader
will try to turn the people on their team into
many versions of them
it's like hey
this is what works for me
so you just do it
and let me just kind of come over top and
and I'm gonna micromanage or
or force you into this
this mold that may or may not fit you
so often one of the first things I do with sales
managers is start helping them
think about who are the people on my team
what are their strengths and weaknesses
and how do I then
need to redirect the things that I think work for me
to make more sense for them
that's super interesting
I don't think I would have come to the conclusion
or even
even thought that somebody who's like primary role
I mean CRM's right
relationship management
wouldn't be naturally better at being leaderships
because they're managing relationships
I would
I would have expected that to be a more aligned
they they tend to be really good communicators
but the type of relationship is just really different
when you're trying to get
so in the today's world
the typical b to B buying group is
I think the last count a couple years ago
was about 11.1 people involved in buying something
if you're if you're selling b to B
I'm sure it's more
it's more now the type of work that you're doing
getting all those people together is
it's a lot of persuasion
a lot of convincing a lot of pushing uh
a lot of consensus building
but you typically
are the person trying to get others to make a decision
and you're trying to convince them to do something
in contrast when you're a manager
and you have the ability
to just tell people what to do
there are different kinds of soft power
that you need to use so that you're not always pushing
sometimes you're pulling too right
so so that that temptation can often be oh
now I I can just tell people what to do
or I can just create a a set of structure
you know it's almost like my fantasy's been fulfilled
all these years trying to get those 11+ people in
in a row for each of these sales
now I have a team and they have to do what I say the
the problem is
there's still a lot of stakeholder management
that needs to happen on a team right
to create
that kind of culture that you were talking about
in our last question around synergy
mutual respect motivation
energy and a
such a sensation from these team members
that they actually do have a say in what they're doing
so it's it is a good point there
they're typically good communicators
it's just a different kind of relationship that has
important nuances that sometimes just don't
well and you would definitely
you would know being that you like you're
you've been immersed into
as you mentioned
like tens of thousands of of sales professional
so you would see these trends
and my view is substantially more narrow
and from a different space right
I'm coming from like a founder LED
my personal experience
and I've met with and managed in some spaces
and I've been dealt with sales professionals
and I I think
maybe I conflate or confuse
the space where I am doing some selling as a founder
and that being a little bit different
because it'll be consultative
or like my goal isn't always to persuade somebody
if it's not gonna be a good fit
I think there may be a slight difference in
a founder who's doing some sales
versus like a salesperson
that is exactly what they do
like that is that is their primary focus entirely
and they're held to different levels of accountability
in terms of metrics and things like that
and their responsibilities are more focused
so I think
what you're describing
almost is that this person has a more like
clearly defined areas
of accountability and responsibility
that maybe they are more naturally tuned
in a way that you're describing
which is to almost by force try to bring people along
yeah it's
it's an interesting
I think another component that's really important too
and then actually
I really want to comment on something you said
but I want to finish this thread yeah
this is this is how you know we're having fun
cause I have like multiple things
sure the other piece is if you're a really good seller
a lot of it probably came to you intuitively
and people who are really good at doing
aren't always the people that are great at teaching
and coaching
so if you have somebody on your team
who's underperforming trying to
you know diagnose
understand empathize
help bring them up that's its own challenge
versus if
if you're somebody who's just been able to kind of see
the matrix your whole life and
and get the sale sometimes it can be hard to translate
well just do this
why can't you just do this
to somebody who doesn't have that natural skills
that's part of it too
but I want I want to compliment you
I thought that was a really interesting question
well I hey
what do I know maybe I'm coming from a different angle
but there was a different question
you asked me in our previous conversation
what's a really good piece of advice
I got early on that I've always used
and it's don't ever discount anyone's point of view
at least at first
after you hear it out and think about it
if it's like really you could be like ah
I'm not gonna pay as much attention
I've from a from a very early age and again
this goes back to being a intelligence officer
I remember having a mentor who even early on
made sure that if I had a question or a thought
that I shared it and years later
I came to understand that
a lot of the stuff I said in the beginning
when I just started
I was a green noob was misinformed and
and it was very basic and and kind of
you know childlike
you were too new even to know it was embarrassing right
that's perfect perfect
but this but this person never made me feel bad
and years later I said hey
why didn't you ever tell me I was being dumb
he said because he called me grasshopper
grasshopper because I wanted you to keep sharing
because I've been doing this a long time
and I didn't want to miss things
and you may have a different perspective that even if
you know I can educate you over time and
and maybe lead you in different directions
like I want to hear your different perspective
because I need to learn so David
just because you're coming from a different angle
I actually thought it was a really interesting
like you're right
hey they're really good at stakeholder management
why do they suck at leading their teams
well you know
that made me think about it
and it's a good but it's the point I would say is
this goes to being a good leader too
never underestimate different perspective
or dismiss it out of hand
there is always a
the likelihood that you are missing something
yeah right
so just if somebody says something
it's different listen
take it in think about it
consider it I'd say that's probably like I
I'm glad that that's your like I
I love that you have that perspective
it um
I remember early early in my career
one of the first things I had always intentionally
done was just assume first
that I'm wrong until I've discovered that I'm not
maybe maybe I
you know maybe I discover through asking questions
that maybe my perspective
that I'm entering with is correct
but if I if I do it the other way around
I'm less likely to take in information
I'll be looking for the things that validate me instead
I I couldn't yeah
I mean I just assume I'm wrong all the time
which is actually pretty effective for relationships
right and then yeah
and then when you find out that you were wrong
it's like okay
well that's what I expected
but it's it's a good point
it's a we're trying to trick ourselves to
to get rid of all these biases that we have
you know that yep
the brain I talk about this in the book too
but this is why a lot of us get into trouble
when we're leading people
we make assumptions whether it's oh
they didn't do their work they must be lazy you know
that's in the side they go
how do we know
there might be something going on in their life
that maybe we could help with
or you you
there's a conflict
and you make assumptions about the cause and blame
we as
as biological entities are wired to make assumptions
because you know
at some point way back in our development you know
it was a group of us with spears and there was a
a woolly Mammoth coming our way
and we had to very quickly make a lot of judgments
for survival about trajectory
where it's gonna go
can I make this javelin throw etcetera
I wanna be clear I'm not an anthropologist
this is me I know the flintstones isn't real history
but this is me extrapolating biology onto history
but anyway point is
we had to make all these calculations
and our brain takes shortcuts to help us do it
very quickly so
we're the most powerful
super computer like entity in the world
at least for now
if you guys have watched this in a couple years
maybe AI will have surpassed us by then
that's right but if you understand how that
part of your brain works
how those gaps and leaps function
you start to see exactly what you're talking about
David
there's a lot of stuff that we fill in for ourselves
and if we know to look for that
we'll be better leaders whether it's anchoring
to the first thing you come up with
or assuming that somebody that
you know you maybe you don't like them
that they're always wrong or always doing something bad
or assuming that your instinct is always the right one
so I like the idea just assume you're always wrong
and you'll at least kill a couple of those biases
as you journey through your leadership experience
yeah and I love
and I love that
you also talk about the evolution of where we're
where we are where we're going
and even about AI and speaking of assumptions
I know lots of people see AI make assumptions of
I mean there's lots of assumptions out there
about where it's going right
I've I've been in the space where I'm seeing
a little bit of two sides of it
just in the private sector
where I'm working with AI development companies
and I'm also working with placing people
and I can see where it causes
you know
some fear and some maybe legit fear in some situations
and then I think it's overestimated in some areas
and underestimated in some areas
and pretty wildly in both directions
from some different instances that I see
but from your perspective
in terms of as it relates to leadership
what impacts do you see as potential
as it relates to AI and its impacts on leadership
it's so funny cause my thought on this changes so often
because of how our capabilities are changing
cause you and I we got delayed on this
I know we originally talked a couple months ago
yeah and in that span
I feel like the tools
that are available to us have already changed
there's a lot of news coming out about AI capabilities
so it's one of those things where I'll start by saying
it can go anywhere like really at this point
the sky's the limit
I think there are people who will say well
you can never replace the human touch
honestly I saw a survey somewhere and I unfortunately
I don't remember where that said
more people would prefer to be coached by an AI
than a human
which yeah
boggles my mind but it kind of makes sense
cause if you're talking to a person
like therapist or coach you might feel judged
personally I'd prefer
I'd prefer a human but
you know it's
it kind of makes sense so it's hard to say
what I think is probably something that will not change
is that it's a double edged sword
on the one hand I love the idea
that there are tools that are easily available
which help you make sense of a lot of information right
so for example if you wanted to look at 20 reports
that one of your direct reports put together and
and kind of remind yourself what was in them because
you know
let's say it's been a year and it's a long time
I think AI is a great way to
to help you do that
remind you of what the person worked on that year yeah
if you want to obviously
take notes or keep a dialogue or a diary
or a log of things people are doing
if you want to role play something
you know even I know there are
there are tools out there and chat
GPT even is pretty good at this thing hey
I wanna say something to this person
but I'm afraid it could offend them
here's what I'm thinking what do you think about that
it can give you some good tips
so there's a lot of great application and
and ways to ask for advice
where the the second edge of this sword
the one that cuts you
comes into play is when we become too dependent on it
and cease to learn
and so you know I have some leaders already who uh
they they're very excited about AI
tools that they're giving to their managers
so that their managers can
you plug in information and basically get like
an entire coaching conversation built out for them
that they can lead
I'd still rather that a leader construct
that themselves because if you are
not really doing the analysis yourself
or thinking critically at any point
you're just relying on a on an AI to
to tell you what you should infer about somebody
I I think your value starts to diminish
and I think we also run into issues where AI
is still not perfect and
and right as of now
it still can't replace your judgment
so in a nutshell it can do quite a lot for us
I think it can be a great tool
provided that we're still willing to do the legwork
when it comes to making the hard decision
of doing the analysis
and using it in a supporting fashion
where it's helping us synthesize information or
or fact check things yeah
and I've I've
I've got a few like
experiences with my own team that get really
excited about the capabilities
and I tell them like
that's great if it's gonna save you that kind of time
that sounds fantastic just so you know
I wanna make sure that you're reviewing the output
cause if you're
if you're gonna just leverage it entirely great
save a bunch of time
but you're still accountable to the end piece
so if it's got a bunch of mistakes
and I can literally just look and see
you didn't review it
that's kind of on you at that point
I mean even to my
even with my partners in a higher stake situation
we get like a 30 page legal contract
we have AI look through and tell us where are those
you know areas of concern and like
okay great
maybe we could sign this contract
but I don't think we can actually get
away with not reading the contract
I think it could miss one thing
and we're still signing that right
so while I love the idea of efficiency
there's a point at which I can't actually afford
to fully remove myself from that
and not still like pay for the consequences if
if there's any mistake I
I agree I've never seen
so I've definitely encountered similar things
I've never seen a situation where somebody
creates something with AI
and there's not at least one issue with it
yeah yeah
whether it's like
like a phantom or like a hallucination or there's yep
something's been in here that doesn't make sense
it'll get you 80% of the way there
but as of now as of the taping of this piece
there's still some things that it can't quite replace
so so I think your your point is a great one
like use it as a fact checker
use it as a backup
help it identify ways to save you time
but always at the end of the day
at least for now trust your own judgment and don't
don't stop using your judgment
yeah no
that's that's how I feel about it now
I'm sure that and this was
you know
I've been noticing that since we started talking
but you're right like it's been a few months
I've seen a lot of changes in a few months
um and I'm sure a few months from now
I'll probably be telling it
I'll be answering the question differently myself
but you know
I did want to
as we start to come towards the end of this
this episode and our conversation here
there is a couple questions
I still wanted to ask you
and get your thoughts from your perspective really
I wanted to know um
one you
I know that you've you've written a book
you've released it I was curious
what are some books that you're currently reading
and ones that you would recommend
people that are developing themselves as leaders
that you would recommend to them
well
one of the things that's really top of mind for me is I
I have a a young kid at home
I'm a first first time parent uh
waited till it was almost too late and uh
managed to sneak one in and I'm absolutely loving it
but one this is a great point too
about AI and trust and everything
the author in question is this woman named Emily Oster
who's an economist and who writes
she's written a couple things
both on very young children
and then also on preparing to
to have your child
and looks at a lot of the underlying data
that was used to make some of the best practices
that are given out to people uh
as they become parents so for example
things about sleeping arrangements with
with your child or when to feed them certain things
and I won't advise anybody on the call about or on the
on the listening audience right now
about what to do with your kid
but super interesting and what I like about it is
she actually breaks down where
some of the data is
actually not as good as we think it is
and we might be believing
things without really needing to believe them
and other places
where the data is actually really good
and we're not believing things enough
and I love I'm a little bit of a math nerd guy
so I like the data but I also really like understanding
kind of
the history behind some of the things that we do
so strong recommend for me
where does that come into play as a leader
this is a little bit condescending to people
that might refer to me
but a lot of the time if I'm somebody's boss or I'm
I'm helping coach them
I think of myself as almost a paternal way is like
how do I help them get what they want and
and get to the next stage of being who they want
so a lot of a lot of those conversations I have uh
sometimes I find myself having them
as I think about my parenting philosophy
so that's the tie in for me David great
well and and just so I'm clear
cause I think you described the book
but what was the book title
the one she wrote to
a crib sheet is the one I'm thinking of
I think is for for kids that are uh
have been born I don't remember
I think expecting better might be the other one
but Emily Oster she has a website and a ton of data
a huge fan um
you should get her on the show
she's awesome that's awesome
well thank you for that
and speaking of not only being a leader
but being a parent
my other question was kind of it's totally hypothetical
but if you were able to go back in time
and give yourself a piece of advice here
as your a leader and a coach
for people that are trying to develop themselves
what would be the one piece of advice
say you only have about 60 seconds
that you would give yourself
to either parent yourself
or lead yourself to be the best version you could be
what would be that one piece of advice
you would give yourself it's not about you
that's me talking to me not me talking to David
no no worries
it's whether I was a look
I was a I grew up in a military family
I moved a lot I got picked on a ton
and I took it personal like up until I was a teenager
and I remember at some point as an adult
realizing that somebody's being mean to you
it's usually more about them than it is about you
and I think in the same way like
you know look
there are some workplace conflicts that are completely
rational so yeah
you get two different opposing views
a lot of it you know
can be tied back to
certain personalities that are difficult
I think we all know about office trolls right
like every every workplace has somebody
that nobody wants to work with
or tries to avoid unfortunately
and it can be easy to to get bogged down that sometimes
and just realizing at the end of the day
all you can control is you
and be confident going into something
about what you want to get out of it
and how you want to present yourself
and then allow whoever else is is
you know potentially not being as respectful
or behaving in the same way to
or acting in a way that might feel uh
tense or uncomfortable
know that that's more a reflection of them
or something that they're feeling
and I think once you're able to kind of identify
you know you've seen the pattern so many times like oh
that person's really angry today and they're
they're having trouble coordinating with someone else
I bet something's happening in their life
let me take them aside and
and check in on them and see what's going on
those kind of moments as a leader
if somebody snaps at you realizing
hey it might not be about you
don't take it personal
try to figure out what you can do to help that person
feel better like
I think that can help us all be more effective people
I love that advice it's like it's uh
it's empathy at its core and I love that
it basically gives both
room for you to be able to not take things personally
and it gives room for somebody else to um
not be perfect all the time
and still create this
environment where you guys can have a
successful relationship
I think that's a great piece of advice
thank you for giving that advice
thank you for the time that you've had with me
on this call
it's been really great to get a chance to chat with you
and I'm looking forward to having another chat with you
I can't wait David
if AI
hasn't taken over the world and made us unnecessary
and we're still alive
I'd love to have another conversation
I should press I've seen Terminator 2 a lot
me too totally grew up with it
and it's where I was like
I'm on Arnold's side but like
it's like a part of me is like hey
he was my hero growing up
and at the same time it's like
the rest of that movie didn't go great for everybody
so I don't actually want that
oh that's a good point though
cause the good in the second one right
the Terminator was also the good guy
so AI helped it's a double edged sword
full circle conversations come full circle
yep that was the root of what you meant
I knew it all along
man alright
let's talk soon sounds good man
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