The Non-Linear Nature of Change: A Conversation with the Central District Forum of Arts and Ideas ( CD Forum)

Show Notes

In this episode, we spend time talking with LANE Alpha Cohort Member CD Forum of Seattle Washington. As an organization dedicated to presenting emerging Black arts, artists, and ideas in the greater Seattle area , Executive Artistic Director Sharon Williams, Program Manager Merri Anne Osborne and Business Development Manager Nina Yarbrough share with us the the ways their work connects to community and how to manage unexpected challenges during times of transition. Happy 20th anniversary CD Forum.  Here's to many more. www.cdforum.org

What is TACtile?

TACtile is the podcast for Leveraging a Network for Equity (LANE) a program of the National Performance Network. This podcast discusses practical tools and concepts designed to transform the field of Arts and Culture towards equity and justice. This podcast is produced by LANE Cohort members, Sage Crump and is edited by Jazz Franklin.

Sage Crump: Thank you for tuning into TACtile, a practical guide to transforming art and culture. This is the podcast of Leveraging a Network for Equity--LANE, a program of the National Performance Network. LANE supports arts organizations of color and rural organizations with the necessary time and resources to grow their infrastructure in ways that are culturally authentic and moves the field towards justice. I'm your host, Sage Crump, programs specialist for LANE.

Music Introduction: (sung) I'm gonna keep on a walking. Keep on a talking. Marching up to freedom land. Ain't gonna let no jailhouse turn me around.

SC: So on this episode of TACtile, we have the great pleasure of talking with the Central District Forum of Arts and Ideas, CDForum, out of Seattle, Washington, one of our initial Alpha Cohort members, one of the first brave souls that decided to come along this journey that we're calling LANE. So, before we jump into, kind of, conversations, will you all please introduce yourselves to people?

Merri Anne Osborne: Yeah, I'm--. Hi, I'm Merri Anne Osborne, and I'm the program manager here at CDForum.

Nina Yarbrough: I am Nina Yarbrough, and I am the business development manager at CDForum.

Sharon Williams: I'm Sharon Nyree Williams, and I'm the executive director for CDForum

SC: Great, and, and Sharon, would you mind telling us a little bit about CDForum and the work that you do? A little bit about your community in Seattle.

SW: Yes: I would love to. CDForum, we're in our twentieth year. Specifically, we were founded in 1999 by Stephanie Ellis Smith, who had a vision that the Central District, which is, which is--, which we now call the historical Black district of Seattle and was also the redline district of Seattle as well, it, it needed, or she thought she could add something by bringing in thought-provoking art and cultural programs, and so, we are now housed out of the Langston Hughes Performing Arts Institute building, where one of three partners, four partners in the building. And we are, we pride ourself on presenting, producing, and developing multi-disciplinary work by Black artists and provide access for courageous conversations to diverse audiences. (2:43)

SC: Wow. Courageous conversations.

SW: Yes.

SC: That feels like a really important thing to think about, right? Cause you can do so much with art and culture presentations. Why is courageous conversations important?

SW: I think it's important that we create space, and that oftentimes, we--. I think one of the issues with society is that we don't want to get down to what we call the real truth of how people are feeling. So through our program, specifically an example is we have a show called kitchen sessions where we feature five to six nonbinary femme, femme artists, and allowing them the comfort to be with a organization like CDForum, to say, You can be your authentic self and share your authentic experience. And in the, in that, sometimes we have people who enjoy the conversation because it's not filtered. It's not politically correct. It is just their true--, the artists' true experiences and how they see the world. And I think if we are more truthful in those type of conversations, then the world will change and be a better place because we will have much more of a understanding versus saying what we believe is what we want people to hear about what we go through, and being nice about it. (4:15)

SC: Yeah. That's amazing. And it, it almost--. It's almost like you took the first question right out of my head. Cause one of the first things that I've been asking people is, How do you believe change happens? And so, I'd love for all three of you all to just weigh in. When you think about what change, or, you know, if you wanna make the distinction between change and transformation. How do--, what are some of the things that, that create that movement?

MO: This is Merri Anne. Yeah I think change--. (laugh). Change can--, is very complicated, right? I think there's lots of layers, because sometimes, you don't have a choice about it, change is gonna happen, right? And then it's how you respond to that change, through your art, you know, there's technology that is now a part of art, and, and how do you respond to that change? Do you embrace that and figure your voice through that art? Do you continue to, you know, work on your art the way you always have and then it becomes a classic, you know, years later, you know, it becomes traditional, it becomes, you know. So, there's that change that's just forced to come on you and then there's the change that I think that you--. Either you want to be a part of the change, so you have to look at your role in what you might be doing. And I'm looking like, I'm talking about positive, forward thinking change, so you have to look at your role, what you might be doing to hold yourself back from that, embracing it. Or there's change that you , you know, you want to be a part of because you're excited about it, and there is a difference with transformation, but I think--. I think one of the things is just being open to being flexible, and as part of this organization, we're really--, talk about change, I think that that's been a, a constant. I'm newer here. (6:17) And so, Sharon, of course, has been at the helm for a while, and when we were hired, new staff members, there was a big change, right? And all of us being flexible as I'm stepping into a new position, as she's working with us, and then working together to change how we work, how we are received in the community, how we wanna be perceived in the community, how we can take the positive way that we are looked at and take it even further, so we're looking at our upcoming season, and we're looking at change. What worked, what didn't and how could we continue to just, just move from there, and so, it's coming from within and it's coming from outside that we're, we're working through that change.

NY: I, I think I would add that--. Because you asked how does it, and I think it happens actively. That change is a combination of, of many different things coalescing and coming together, and that it's a continuum, right? And so we throw in this, this idea of transformation, I feel like transformation are little stopping points along the continuum that happen--. Or at least that's the way that I perceive it. And so I think it's this active process that causes you to become uncomfortable and evolve and to move forward. But it's also I think, as Merri Ann said, if you look at it from the, the positive perspective, It's something that helps you to grow and shift, and in the little time that I've been at our company, I've seen that happen. Having appreciation of someone who was an intern, many moons ago, and now as a, as a employee, to be able to mark that change, and just see the growth happen. It's something that never stops, right. It's the only constant that we have in the universe right? So. (8:17) But yeah, that's what it--. That's what I think of, that change is an active process that will happen whether or not you want it to. And you--. And that those transformations--. The evolutions happen, I think, along that continuum.

SC: Mm-hmm.

SW: And I agree exactly with everything that Nina and Merri Ann said, so I have nothing to add at this time. They took the words out of my mouth.

SC: Well, a couple of the words that came up while they were speaking that are, are, are interesting to me is this idea of change being internal and it being intentional, sort of, its an active thing. And so, I wanna go back in time a little bit to when you first heard about LANE, Leveraging A Network for Equity. There's this thing going around, folks were like, What is it? National Performance Network. We're looking for arts organizations of color who are interested in growing in new ways, arts organizations who are doing work in the community who are fighting systemic oppressions and white supremacy through their framework. What were you hoping to--. And I wanna put it in these air quotes that no one can see--change? What was it that made you decide to apply to this four year, pretty intensive, as we've come to understand, four years of, of growth?

SW: In all honesty, it was a push from you and the folks at NPN. Because when I first heard about it, it was intimidating. And, and one thing that happens as, as you're working through an organization or working through something, when there's a big opportunity that comes up, sometimes you count yourself out before you even attempt to go do the process. And I'm willing to admit that, right, like, Oh, we're not gonna get that. They have so many people applying. (10:22) And I got this call that was like, We noticed that you didn't sign up for this, and, and it was like, Yeahhhh. But then when I got into the room, the first thing I learned was I wasn't the only one that was scared. I wasn't the only one that, as an organization, had these struggles that you try not to tell people because you don't want them to think about you in a certain way. And, and I found myself, more than often, crying through that first meeting and shaking my head so hard, amen-ing what people were saying, and it was like the first item that, as an executive director, you--, I was able to be truthful about my situation without anybody judging us, and that's when I knew that this was the right program for us to continue to move forward, and, and to pursue honestly and authentically.

SC: Thank you for that. And you, and you were and have been, you know, at times, we've referred to, to you as sort of our emotional compass in this. Right, like, we know we're on to something if your eyes get a little bright and a little watery, we're like, Oh, okay this is a good thing. Because it's funny how quickly we make something personally. It's our failure. It's us as individuals. And, and what we've tried to do with LANE is, like, uplift it to a systems level. And then like, it's not just bad decisions that people make, it's decisions folks were forced to make because of survival decisions or access that they did or did not have. (12:11) And I'm wondering if there are, along your journey, points that you--. Some of the things that in the room that you felt like, Oh, here's some things that a lot of people are, are, are talking about that feel resonant for me that make me not feel so alone. And this is open to, to Nina as well, or Merri Ann. Because you've been to gatherings over the last few years as well.

SW: I think one of the first things was self-care. I remember coming to a meeting and , and it was like, not only self care, but also the sacrifices that we're, that we're willing to make when we're doing this work. Like, not getting paid and--, but making sure that everybody we come in contact with gets paid, and not being able to pay to get our car fixed, but, but putting on a brave front if we get to do a show. And so, when, when a person in the room was talking bout, you know, I, my car just broke down, and it's gonna cost me $300 to get it fixed, and I can't get it fixed, but--, because I'm making sure that staff gets paid. And it was one of those things where I was like, Oh, man, I missed a coupe payments--, paychecks, but I made sure that the organization's logo was out there, and tha we were partnering with people and we'd continue to do programs, but , yeah, I' not alone in this? Wait a minute. And that's when you start realizing that we have systemic issues around how arts nonprofit is ran, and it was very clear to me, so when I came back, and I was like, "And da da da da." And I was in a meeting, and I was like, and then, over there it's systemic. Why do we believe that we don't deserve better? (14:25) As arts organizations, and so that was one of the major things in the beginning of the process that really stood out to me.

NY: One of my first LANE events was going to--, it was San Jose, right? There was the Alpha Cohort. And it was startling to me how similar the organizations were, whether it was size, or whether it was the passion for the arts, cause one thing we talk about in the office--, we've come across it a couple times, the idea of feeling that as a Black run organization in a predominantly white city, state, hemisphere, like, you feel like you're alone a lot of the times, and you feel like you're the only one doing it. So, and even before I started working for CDForum, you could count on your hand and not use all your fingers the number of culturally specific nonprofit arts organizations that were doing the work and doing it sustainably, CDForum being one of them, like, managed to be around for 20 years, continued to work with and for artists to uplift them. But being in that room for the first time and learning about Carpetbag, learning about Junebug. Su Teatro. It was just startling to me how similar the journeys were and the systemic issues that Sharon talked about, how pervasive they, they were, and it was nice to know that you weren't the only one, you know, out there doing the work, because it can feel like a very Herculean effort.

SC: And I want to affirm for you that it not only feels like a Herculean effort, it is a Herculean effort. The work that you all have done, the work that some of the other cohort members were done to, to sustain yourselves for these years is, is brilliant. It is laudable, it is strategic, and it's why our tagline is "See Leaders Make Change." (16:32) Because what we recognize really deeply is that folks have figured out how to thrive inside a context that was ever changing and often changing the rules to make it even harder for you. What I'm wondering, like, with the--. When you hear the term or this idea of See Leaders Make Change, what are some of the things inside CDForum that you're like, Oh, these are the things that we have developed, or that we know that we are growing our leadership in or that we feel really great about in terms of our internal processes and how we function.

SW: I think one thing first is being open to the process. And, and being willing to admit when you make mistakes. And I think, through this process, you, you feel as though, okay, you've got the money in the bank. You have the support there, through the consultants and your cohort and you're on top of the world, and then you have to begin to put things into place. Like the, the living document of your proposal, is now in full fledged action, and, and then you start to freak out. And then you start to realize, Oh shoot, I have to make this happen. And then you start hiring people. And I was just having--. I was having this conversation with a friend the other day, about when you hire people and you're starting to make change and, and you've been, you've been the one running the organization, one of the things that I had to do as a leader was pull back. And pulling back meant, sometimes I feel as though I can run this organization in my sleep, right? I've, I've been through just about every situation, and so I remember specifically of, we were having a conversation about a particular thing and, and I told Merri Ann exactly how to do the email. (18:38) No, in the email, you tell them this, this, this, and this. And then--. And Merri Ann looked kinda puzzled for a second, and, and I just kept going. and then, not long after that, I said, wait a minute, No. Merri Ann. You know the situation, you write the email in a way that you feel comfortable. And that's just a small thing of as you start to change, that you start to self-correct and that you allow your, your staff to call you on your stuff, right? Or be comfortable enough to stay, you know what? That really made me feel uncomfortable, but because we're all growing this organization together, we have to be okay with making missteps and getting through it, but acknowledging it. And being able to acknowledge the missteps is one of the hardest things as you're going through and seeing change.

SC: Well, I appreciate you. I hear you framing that as a misstep, but I also hear the way in which you've grown in your leadership in that moment, too. So, I can let some of this go and, and let the staff do what they're supposed to do. You know, what you know, what you have been to do. I mean that--. That's both personal and managerial. (20:02)

NY: I immediately thought about our work with the artists, cause there have been several times now where both Merri Ann and I have been able--and I've seen it in, like, different instances, being able to step into our power as, like, the relationship builder with the individual artist. Cause for the longest time, that's been Sharon doing: manage relationships with artists. Make sure programming happens. Figure out the box office. Like, everything it takes to run an arts organization. And then that artist component, because that's ultimately what we're doing at our core is that we're trying to cultivate, help grow, and support these artists that are at different stages in their career, and whether it was Sharon empowering me to go through a grant writing process with an artist that we're gonna be working with next year, or seeing Merri Ann completely, totally handle a whole rehearsal situation and being able to walk away and be like, Merri Ann has this, like she has the temperament, she has, like, the ability to work with so many different types of people and be able to see--, for me, that's how that manifests is like, cause again, I was there when it was just Sharon, and I was, like, the little intern who, like, got to pop in and out, so I wasn't there all the time, but to be able to see her have, like, have that confidence in us to do that has been really cool to see, and it's only growing more, whether it's, you know, it's handling artists in that situation or working with them on smaller projects, like, I foresee that growing more so again that's another thing where she has, she's able to step back some, so that we can work with those artists in that way, and then she can work with artists in other ways as well, and she's not holding everything.

MO: Yeah. I think the other thing--. Definitely, what Nina was saying, and, and acknowledging sharings of graciousness and, you know, when you have new staff and new styles and you have been doing everything, and you know how to do everything, but you know you can't, like, continue to do everything and stay sane. You know, being able to let that go and, and taking through--. Oops! Talking through things. (22:19) I think one of the things I'm thankful for, cause I've known Sharon in the community as an artist, and then knowing her as the executive director of this organization, then walking into this space, I've been thankful for LANE for--. I can say this from what I've seen, being able to have ED's and staff--, not like, you know, they're all up there and we're down here, but everybody having access to resources, so, Sharon is now part of this network of other ED's that she can, you know, I think that's been such a key thing, and get these resources, consultation, and Nina and I, also, where we're at, you know, we've been meeting people now in our cohort and in the other cohorts to come, the Beta, knowing that there's people out there that I can go to and that we can all grow from that and develop as, as leaders and, and, and also what Nina was saying about working with the artists, one of the things we do here at CDForum is we're try--. You know, we work really hard, and it's--. Our curator, dani tirrell, is a perfect example of you know, working and supporting and mentoring arts leaders as they go through their careers. So, starting as a dancer, now he's our curator, he's--, he's done a lot of things, but like CDForum is one of those spaces where he constantly says it's given him a chance to even grow--grow even more, so, developing ourselves, but also developing the artists in our communities so that they can go on and dream of things that they didn't know that they could do or had thought about doing but did not have a space where they could do it, or needed support to have their visions fulfilled, you know, I--, I'm really excited about that part of CDForum and growing how we continue to mentor artists and future artistic leaders, you know. Just being one of many steps that they're gonna take, being a foundation and a platform for them to spring off of. I'm excited about that.

SC: So, one of the things what y'all are saying makes me think about is the intention behind LANE. And its ability to support an organization's infrastructure. Can you talk a little bit about the ways in which from, I guess we're three years now in, you've seen CDForum change and grow through the process? (24:59) And what parts of the process have felt very rich for you?

SW: Wow. So much change has happened. I think confidence is one, and, and being deserving. And, and really looking at what you do in valuing it. Because when I came into LANE, I basically didn't think that we had any resources, because we didn't have any money, and, and then, then we started talking about the different kinds of capital, and we started the hearing about my social capital, and, and it was just like, and our intellectual capital, and I felt so rich in that moment, like, Y'all, we do have stuff. Wait a minute. But because there was no dollar amount to those things, I felt as though, as an organization we didn't have anything, and we was constantly struggling. And I think the main thing that LANE helped me see is that we have so much value in what we do, whether sitting down with an artist, or it's meeting with a councilmember, or it's actually doing a show, the value is, is phenomenal and, in LANE, the changes that I got to see through that was not thinking that we had to do it a certain way. (26:47) That you had to follow the script of what it meant to be an arts and culture organization in this day and age, right? That you had to start with an executive director or general manager, or you had to have a managing director and an artistic director, but it was actually more of a thoughtful process of, Okay, what are the things that you want help with? What are the needs of the organization truthfully, if money wasn't a problem? In a lot of our LANE meetings you hear, Dream, dream big. Dream, dream big. What does that look like? And the freedom to, to do that was, was priceless, and so with that, we didn't go back to the, the structure. When CDForum first started, the structure was executive director, program manager, and then it was changing the structure when I came on board to executive director, artistic director. And then by the time our LANE consultants and our cohort got together, it was like, Um, no, I'm still the Executive Director, but what if we bring in our first position is a Business Development Manager, which is different. It's not just looking at advancement and grants and things of that nature, but also being a part of the operations side of what we do, and started thinking of it that way, versus the traditional models, and those are the changes that are solved right away. Of, we don't have to do anything the exact same way that it's been done for years. And so, going through that process and continuing to be in that process allows me to say to my staff, like, Nina was having these meetings with different development managers and people in the community. (28:44) And then one day I woke up and I said, Okay, I know how they do it but I think one of the questions you should ask them is, What i--, what would they be doin gif they didn't have all the walls that are put up in front of them? So, if they, if they could do whatever they want without going through the politics of a large organization, what would that look like? And, and so we had the freedom to do that here, and we had the mindset to do that because of the LANE program.

MO: I just--, because I started this summer, what I hear from the San Jose meeting to now and from the beginning, I mean, it seems like it's been just leaps and bounds because of the support and the neat, you know, intellectual, financial, like, all sorts of technical support through LANE. I mean, even since the time I've been here, it, it just has meant so much with having breathing room. Breathing room to, I guess, dream bring, but also breathing room to not feel like you have to swim upstream and any minute, you're gonna get snagged by the fisherman's hook and thrown onto land--I don't know where I'm getting this analogy. (30:13) But, you know, you were, you just, you just have time to really look at your organization and to enjoy the work you do, but also you have time to be strategic about the next step. You have time to learn from your lessons, and then get feedback, you know, from mistakes made or successes, and then you get feedback on how you can make it move forward. So I think it's like--. I mean, and also, you know, that it's gonna end at some point, right? But you also have time to develop those relationships and give your, your experiences to that next cohort or to others because you feel like, Okay, now I'm shored up. I, I got this. You know? And I can, I can really move on, instead of just always-. I 'm not saying that that was CDForum always worrying, but just always knowing that i could do better but how? And this gives you time. And we, we--. Who are we as a arts organization? What does our model look like, like Sharon's saying? We're not like everybody else. Who are we, and who do we wanna be, and it gives you time to, to kind of take the best of other organizations and how they do things, and think about what it would look like for you instead of just grabbing at, I'm just gonna have to do it this structure because everybody else does. So I think it's just one of those things that I've noticed that we don't have time, but we have more time and more, more opportunity to, to look at things strategically and not feel rushed, and not make the wrong, the wrong mistakes that could set us back so far.

SC: So, some of the things that I hear you naming are, you know, the, the value of, of time and the breathing room, and the sense of possibility that feels like it was really helpful. And also the--, sort of the last thing you said, Sharon, also makes me think of size--, of smaller sizes as a challenge, like, how do we just simply grow bigger, but I hear you naming that, actually as a, as a value add, right? A nimbleness that you're able to have, due to your size, and how that increases the different possibilities you have access to. And so I appreciate that, that framing that you all are offering because I feel like a lot of us feel like, Oh, we're too small. Like we said. Or we're small. Our impact is only but so much. But what happens when in, in the environment in which we are currently in, which is, as you mentioned, Nina, changing all the time, and contexts are shifting, the ability to be nimble and to make shifts along with it, is huge. Is huge. And so, for our, our other organizational friends who, I like to call them cruise ships--you know, a cruise ship takes, like, a day to turn--you know, that, that, that can't adjust as quickly as, as CDForum can, is really important to, to appreciate around how you all have, have literally attacked, and i like to say that. Like, folks are like Ohh, I'm just one person or just two people, but you all have attacked this opportunity. You're gonna squeeze every bit of juice out of LANE.

MO: That's right. That's how we do it in Seattle. Especially if you're a Black artist, you better--, see something good, you know, you just--, you give back, but you also know that there's something to be learned to take the opportunity and run.

SC: Mm-mm. You all are not gonna leave here thirsty clearly. But I also know that, that, that LANE hasn't been easy either. Right? Like, one of the things in the development of it is we clearly, clearly underestimated the amount of work it was going to be for you all. I can name that very honestly. As I've watched these three years, you know, go by, these twelve organizations now. Can you talk a little bit about where there might've been bumps in the road for you all? And if there were, like, how--. What, what corrections showed up or, how did you make pivots? That's how I like to think about them is like pivot moments, when you're like, Oh, we're gonna do this, and you're like, Oh, actually, that plan is not gonna work out. We're gonna do this in stead. (34:49)

SW: Yes. One of the things was when we were tasked with doing the application from the Mellon foundation. And all the work that we had done leading up to that was like, Okay. We can ask for the world, and then, what happened was I had this idea for this entrepreneur conference that I wanna have, and--creative entrepreneur conference that I wanna have--we was like, Yes! that'll be perfect for the Mellon application! And then, me and the consultants, we started going through it, and, and like, Okay, so how is the conference gonna make money? What's the revenue streams? And when is it gonna start, and da da da--. And as we started asking more and more questions, we was like, Well maybe this is further down the road than what we thought. And, and so then we, we shifted, and then we wanted to--, because of gentrification, we wanted to reach more regional--do more regional programming, and I was like, Yea, so we could put a satellite office--. Mind you, at this point, I'm one person. But we're gonna do a satellite office out in the South end of Seattle, and, and then we was like, Does that really make sense now? And so, so, it was like, Okay. So what are we gonna put in this application? He's like, Well what are the things that you need right now, and that will help sustain CDForum. And so, we had all those bumps, and then we got frustrated, and we came back to the table, and it was like, we need employees. (36:25) We need equipment. We need, we need to do regional outreach, but how can we do it more effectively? And so, those were some of the things. And then, a major bump in the road for us was the first person that I hired through the LANE, through our recovery capital, Suriyanka Cara (PHONETIC 36:47), she needed a H1B Visa, and we were able to go through that process with her, and, then all of a sudden in the middle of the process when we were about to start on the Mellon Foundation application, we were notified that through the lottery, she wasn't selected. And, and it was one of the hardest times for us throughout the process, because we have to keep moving forward, cause we're in this major process, but we're human as well, and so, there was a lot of crying. Okay, I do, I have done a lot of crying this process, and a lot of, How can we help, but she has to leave. And I think the LANE process and NPN, my consult--. The consultants and the NPN staff really rallied around us and was like, Okay. So, how do we help? How do we move forward. And at times when you didn't wanna think about moving forward, it was a nice little push like, I know you're sad, but what do you need? And at that point, I needed help writing the Mellon foundation application, and then, not knowing, Stanlyn from NPN connected me with June, who had worked at NPN, who was closing an organization and was like, How can I help you? And she ended up coming on board to help write that application, and so, those were some of the bumps in the roads where I thought we weren't gonna make it. We're not gonna be able to do it. (38:28) And, and it all came together, because the foundation that LANE had already set, and that we are, we're not just giving you money, this is the program, this is--, and our foundation is based off of collaboration and support for you as individuals.

SC: Thank you for sharing that. When, when that was all happening and knowing that Suriyanka was going to have to leave the country, it was hard. It was a hard moment. And, and you all moved through it gracefully and still stayed connected and supported her. And so, we were watching you both try to support this organization, support Suriyanka through the process, and also your own grief in, in having to lose this person that you had, that you developed a relationship with, not just a working relationship with. I think it's one of those examples of how external contexts and, you know, the administration and the way immigration works are these, like, out--, external factors that impact how and when our organizations are able to move forward, and then it, it encourages us to think about what are the resources? Cause right then, money was not the resource that would help you. Right? Like, it was--. What are the resources that we have? And we have access to that actually can help us in those moments.

NY: One of the things that I've noticed or has--. Maybe it's something I've just internalized is the idea of living up to the expectations. Because the--. Like, knowing that the LANE process was so involved and was so intensive, but it was also a, a crucially transformative moment for the organization. Like, stepping into that new space and those new expectations is daunting. (40:24) Regardless of whether or not there are burdens being purposefully placed on me or not, it's the idea of knowing that you're a part of an organization's, like, turning point in its evolution, and not wanting to mess it up. So, so, I think that for me, that's been--, that's been something that I deal with a lot is, you know, from a, from a really practical standpoint of taking that LANE, that Mellon application, which basically lays out CDForum's like organizational strategy for the next few years and translating that into an actionable plan that we all have a piece of in some form or fashion has--, is challenging. And is, is scary, because you don't wanna drop the ball, cause it's--. Not only is it an organization whose work you believe in, but it's also people who you admire and wanna support and wanna see flourish. So I think that's something that--. I'd be curious to know how many other folks in the cohort feel that same way, like, cause Sharon talks about it a lot, like--. You were handed, you know, several thousands dollars that sits in the bank, and the fear that comes, and the anxiety that comes with having that responsibility and that burden. And I think for me, it's the, the challenge of, of the, like, the duty of care, ultimately, is what it is. And so, that's something that I think a lot about. (42:00)

SC: I think that's something that makes you all and our other cohort members, and a lot of folks we get to work with really special. Cause there are folks who don't think about it, don't even care. There are (laugh), you know, who aren't thinking about a legacy that gets left after they're gone, like, how you, how you manage and navigate this impacts others, and impacts the organization, and so, that's, that's a beautiful, a beautiful charge to have, and it's one that I found really fascinating. And--, the ways in which, now having access makes some folks stop moving. You're like, Oh, I have all this money, I'm not gonna do nothing til I can figure out like (laugh) the exact right move to make, cause I don't wanna make the wrong move. And ,and I think there are folks who have always had access who never have that feeling. Never have that feeling. Cause they just assume they're always going to have access. Whereas for us, for arts organizations of color, smaller organizations, rural organizations, we're, we're so positioned with, We never know if this is gonna happen again, so let's be really, really diligent and--. I wonder if there's a--, a middle ground, right, like, how did you work through that, or what, what, or are working through this, this duty of care, and not letting this sense of duty impact your ability to dream or function.

SW: I think the artist. And the community, the need for the artist and the need to do something substantial for the community is what drives us, and I remember when I first moved us into the Langston Hughes Performing Arts Institute building, and Jay Solomon Curtis was working on her show, and now, and she, she texts me and was like, Can you come downstairs? And I went downstairs, and she performed for me so I could give her some notes. And I couldn't believe that I was in the same building with an artist because we hadn't done that before. We--, our office space was always off in some other building, and then the artists did their thing somewhere else. And so, as, as we get geared up, we get excited around working with artists, like, the day Nina was talking about that I allowed her--, I set it up to where her and Randy can meet to work on his grant for his budget for a grant. I mean, when that was done, we were all in the office, jumping up and down, and just that experience was, like, giving us life. Or the day that dani came in and we were supposed to just be talking about one show, and I leaned back and said, Why don't you just curate the whole season? And watching him flourish, or just watching Just DuPre who for the--, Lori DuPre, who just was working on a show and we started talking about it three years ago, and it just happened last week, nd walking her through the process, that gives us life. We like being a vessel for Black artists to share their stories in whatever form they want to. And, and every time that we get tired or we get exhausted or we feel as though we don't wanna go to work today, as soon as we walk in that theater, or we walk in our office and an artist is there, will remind us why we can do that work. Or we look at our community, and people say, And because of gentrification they've moved out, and they come, and they come to our show, and they're like, Wow. This gave me life. I didn't even--. We had a party the other night after a show, and the next day, we came in for a artists reception, and everybody's knees are hurting and backs are hurting, and they looked at each other and said, I didn't know I needed that. And I think that's what drives us. (46:27)

NY: The other thing, Sage, when you first were posing that, I immediately thought of, like, the consequences of failure, is that, like, you mentioned earlier that people who've always had access, they don't have to worry about, or they don't think about what it's like to not have access. I also think the other side too is that, Even if they try something big and they fail, the consequences of their failure is very different than the consequences of our failure. I feel. Or at least that's how it feels sometimes. Because we don't have a lot of opportunities, you almost feel like every time you do it, it has to be right. And I think that what we are doing in our office at least is try--. Like, I have to remind myself is that--, creating that space where, like, Alright, you didn't get it right this time. the world is not gonna end. What can we do to, so, to get it better next time. But that it--, that's something that it did make me think about, like, what happens when you don't get it right, like, is there a safety net under you, and if there is, how likely are you to try for bigger and better things too, versus if you don't know if there is a safety net or there's never been a safety net, right? So yeah, that's what that made me think of.

SW: And that takes me to--, one of my mentors told me, when I was in grad school, I had made an announcement what my summary project was gonna be. And I started freaking out. (48:00) I was like, Oh my goodness. I just told people. And now I have to do it. And I--I, I texted her, and she was like, you know, you have to be willing to fail. And I share that all the time. You have to love something so much that you're willing to put everything in it and it not go right that you will learn from that experience and that's what I feel Nina was just talking--, speaking to.

SC: Wow. Thank you all so much. I--, I was just thinking about the, the tagline to this podcast. It's TACtile: A Practical Guide to Transforming Art and Culture. And you all have certainly laid out practice upon practice upon practice for people to use for their own work, for their own, their own ways they think about. To transform their own thinking from a place of nervousness maybe or--, away from what feels like others want to a place of what I want for myself. And my organization. And so I just wanna say, I'm really grateful always to talk to you all and really appreciate you taking this time.

MO: Thank you, Sage. Thanks for inviting us to this podcast and having time with you.

SC: Always. Is there anything you want people to know before we wrap up about what's going on with CDForum, or shoutout where they can learn more?

SW: We're in our 20th anniversary, we're ready to party and have a good time, as we come to the end of this Season. And through LANE, and through the hard work of the CDForum Staff, just look out for us, whether it's regionally, out in Tacoma, or if it's in Seattle, we are in the heart of the central area, and we wanna invite people to seek us out, because we're doing some great work, we have some great artists, and it's about community. And it's about making our artistic and cultural community stronger and we will have a show--. We have Sunday dinners. We feed people all the time. (50:27) But we like to celebrate who we are, and that's what we're doing, and so, if you're in town, whether it's a Sunday dinner or kitchen sessions, our our party to celebrate our 20th anniversary on June 8, or FagGod by dani tirrell, come sit with us and see how we do things, because we're getting it done in a, in a very authentic way here in Seattle.

MO: And we didn't get a chance to mention before, we're gonna be having a new website up, but right now, www.cdforum--. www.cdforum.org. Come visit, check us out. We're gonna have our 2019/2020 schedule up in the next few months if not earlier, but yeah, if you're in town, just let us know; we'd love to show you what's going on in Seattle, and what we do here, but also if you're interested in Black artistic performances voices, etcetera, let us know, and we can show you around. (laugh)

NY: Also--

MO: Mmhmm?

NY: Follow us on Instagram.

MC: Well, there you go.

NY: At CDForum. Follow us on Facebook, Central District Forum for Arts and Ideas. Our social game is on point. (all laugh)

SC: That is so true. That is so true.

MO: Yeah. We got some good things going.

SC: Okay, well I'm gonna go on and make my flight for June eighth, so that on June ninth, I can talk about how my back and my knees hurt from hanging out with you all, and Have a great day and thank you so much.

All others: Thank you.

SC: Thank you for listening. Funding support for LANE is provided by the Andrew W Mellon Foundation. You can find more information about LANE and the amazing organizations involved on the NPN website, www.npnweb.org. This episode was co-edited by Amanda Banskton and Monica Tyran. jazz franklin is our podcast editor, and sound design by muthi reed. (52:50)