188: Heat Pumps at Home … and all the way down

https://youtu.be/NaK5a-G2FBA

Matt and Sean talk about heat pumps and their value to home owners, plus the mailbag.

Watch the Undecided with Matt Ferrell episode, Is a Geothermal Heat Pump Worth It? My Net Zero Home https://youtu.be/onmLrUh2cHU?list=PLnTSM-ORSgi7FwYRnWkpCSkAeFOzrgh5h

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Creators & Guests

Host

Matt Ferrell

Host of Undecided with Matt Ferrell, Still TBD, and Trek in Time podcasts

Host

Sean Ferrell

Co-host of Still TBD and Trek in Time Podcasts

What is Still To Be Determined?

Join Matt Ferrell from the YouTube Channel, Undecided, and his brother Sean Ferrell as they discuss electric vehicles, renewable energy, smart technologies, and how they impact our lives. Still TBD continues the conversation from the Undecided YouTube channel.

On today's episode of Still To Be Determined, we're gonna be talking about heat pumps, basically home building questions from the mailbag and some other topics. As usual, I'm Sean Ferrell. I'm a writer. I write some sci fi. I write some stuff for kids, including the most recently released book in my library, The Sinister Secrets of Singe, which is out now.

With me, as always, is my brother, Matt. He's that Matt from Undecided with Matt Ferrell, which takes a look at emerging tech and its impact on our lives. Matt, how are you doing today?

I'm doing good. And speaking of tech, I'm in like tech hell. I've been setting up my smart home and it completely blew up on me.

It's very stupid. It completely fell apart and I'm having to reset it all up again. Technology has failed me. How are you

doing? Well, I won't go into details yet on, uh, what I'll be sharing, but that subject of the difficulty of a smart home is actually a comment in the mailbag. So we'll be talking about that a little bit more.

Uh, but I'm doing okay. It was a kind of wild and woolly. Weekend, for me, uh, we had another pretty heavy storm come through New York City. Not as bad as the week previous, where there was footage that was being shared nationally. Um, We have three feet of water on 4th Avenue in Brooklyn and, and, and all that.

Um, but I had a book festival event I had to go to and every book festival I have ever been a part of, it has rained and this one was no different, but this one, yeah, it's something about this rain cloud that follows me around. I'm not sure. If it's directly related, but I ended up taking New Jersey transit, uh, into a Northern town of Glen Rock in New Jersey.

And they have a small book festival there that's been organized by a great book shop called the Curious Reader. So if any of our listeners or viewers are in the Northern New Jersey area, I highly recommend the Curious Reader. It's a terrific bookshop. And they have this. Book Festival, which is a couple dozen, I think, probably authors and illustrators.

So it's not enormous, but the turnout was tremendous despite the fact it was torrential downpour for portions of it. The winds were incredible. There were tents set up in order to give protection to the visitors when they were not in the author tents or in the tent buying their books. There were tents set up just for them to be able to be out of the rain.

Uh, one of those tents started to blow away at one point, uh, flipped over completely. So they had some of the volunteers during the windiest parts of the storm were actually tasked with standing in a tent. Just holding it in place. Uh, so, and the largest tent to blow over was actually the one with the book registers.

Um, it was a large red tent situated between the two author tents. And when it flipped over, I thought, well, this is the beginning of the end. This does not bode well. We carried on. The tents were put back into place and reweighted and, and everything continued. Uh, so despite the weather. And apparently last year's event, it was very similar.

A hurricane literally came through, um, but they still had their, their festival. So they had it this year as well. Again, another major storm, but made it through. Not one author, illustrator, or book was damaged despite this. It was really pretty remarkable. And like I said, the turnout was incredible. Um, I've never been to a book festival where I've signed.

As many books as I did at this one. So I was like, very impressed by how supportive the community is of kids, literature, readership, tons of teachers, librarians, and so many kids. And the kids were fantastic. The kids would come running up and want to find out more about our books and we would share information.

And it was really, uh, Very heartwarming to see the responses from kids as they would run from table to table with excitement, um, and then the inevitable conflict of they'd been told they could pick out one or two books, but they wanted them all. So it was a, it was a fun day, but it was a tiring day. So it was a full day for me of heading out from Brooklyn, getting on the trains, heading up to Jersey, and then coming back.

And by the time I got back, I felt like I had been gone for three days. So

just in

time to record a podcast, just in time to record a podcast. I had a full day of recovery, uh, yesterday though. So Matt and I are doing this on an atypical recording day, partly for him, partly for me. Uh, and I don't know what Matt had to recover from, maybe from trying to get his smart home up and running.

Before we get into our conversation about Matt's most recent episode, I wanted to share some comments from previous ones. We had some people weighing in on subjects not quite tied in specifically to the subject of the videos, but that's fine. We love having, we love having any kind of feedback. And if you have comments or questions and it doesn't tie in directly to an episode, continue to drop them in.

Drop them in. It's, it's terrific. We had in our... Conversation, episode 186, in which we discussed NASA and its 3D printing tech, there were some notably non NASA comments, like this one from Andrew Knotts, who jumped in to say, I am just installing a solar edge inverter with a grid isolator that can run the house in the event of grid failure.

This is a new product that I've been awaiting a year for. I wanted to know your thoughts. Matt, about this kind of tech and how useful it would be for just an average homeowner like, uh, the commenter or yourself building a new home, putting something together, you've got solar panels, is this kind of inverter useful, uh, for the general

populace?

Oh, yeah. Uh, like right now, batteries are still on the expensive side. So most people don't get batteries installed when they get in solar. And then they complain that when the grid goes down, their solar panels don't work and they get very frustrated. This is the answer to that question. It's not just SolarEdge, but Enphase, the company I'm using that makes microinverters has a similar product so that when the grid goes down, you can, and you're producing solar, you can at least still be using some level of power while the grid is down.

Of course. In the evening, you lose everything because there's no sun at night, but it at least gives you something during the day that you can still get some kind of power out of it. These, it's a huge game changer. It's a, it's about, it's one of those, it's about time that they put this kind of stuff on the market because it's,

it's going to be huge.

I would also think that given, and I just talked about the storm that Impacted my travels this weekend. We are very obviously in a new era of what weather impact looks like. And we should anticipate more grid failure than grid sustainability. Um, so I would think that in the coming decade, having this kind of tech on your home is going to be life changing for people as.

We're going to have more events that are going to lead to grid failures and having a home where you're able to depend on at least a moderate amount of energy production so that your refrigerator continues to run or you're able to, you're able to light your home or able to keep yourself in the event of maybe in the summer, being able to actually run an air conditioning unit as opposed to sweltering in a hundred degree heat, uh, something like this is going to become very useful.

I would also like to point out, Matt, I would love a t shirt that would say what you had just said. There is no sun at night.

With your name as the... Matt Ferrell. There is no sun at night. Matt Ferrell. Undecided with Matt Ferrell. 2023. It's really going to get the viewership numbers going up.

And then this comment from Tecker who... is, this is the comment that I hinted at earlier in this episode. I watched Matt's new house video and was so lost by the tech. I'm 62 and use a 2005 tower computer and hate smartphones. But don't get me wrong, I'd love to have solar panels and a flow battery backup.

The problem is, it has to be easy to use by low tech slash no tech people. Yes. So, maybe this is a subject for an actual video for your channel? Uh, but, just very briefly, what's your response to the idea of this kind of... user looking for, I need it to be dummy proof. I need to be able to go somewhere, plug it in and know it's doing its job.

And, uh, I'm having flashbacks as we talk about this to practically every conversation we have with our parents about things from Apple watches to Wi Fi to computer usage. I'm having flashbacks to our grandmother. Claiming she didn't want a cordless phone, not a, not a cell phone, but a cordless phone because in her words, she didn't want to have to add extra outlets into her home.

Yeah. So, yeah. So this is, this is not new. This there is a point where the human brain. And, and what I'm going to say may sound like I'm being trying to be sarcastic or ironic. I'm not, there is a legitimate known point where people stop being able to adapt to new technology. And there is a point where that new tech just sounds too newfangled.

And that's not how we did it in my day. And what do you do for the 62 year old who is saying, I would love to be able to jump into some of this stuff to be able to help myself in the future, but I'm a little put off by needing to know too much. Yeah.

This tech has to be bulletproof. I mean, that's the bottom line is like, uh, the water example here is a water, the water heater.

We have, it works like a water heater. You plug it in. Turn it on and it's got this big display on the front of it and you pick your temperature and it's done. But if you are a tech head, it has an app you can download and you can do all these configurations and do all this kind of crazy stuff if you want to kind of go a step further, but it's still operable and behaves like anybody would expect a water heater to behave like.

And so it's like, that's kind of what most of this tech has to be. It has to be. I don't want to call it idiot proof because it's, it's, that's not the problem here. It's people just don't have a desire to go that far. And things like smart homes are still not mainstream because there are so many rough edges and the user experience is like a death by a thousand cuts.

And I've had a thousand cuts over this weekend and this morning my house smart home is completely blown up and I'm basically recreating it from scratch. But that's my, of my own making. Like I made this hell that I'm currently in. I didn't have to do this, but it's, it's one of those, the devices themselves that are in my house are working as intended and they will continue to work as intended.

It's how I'm trying to glue them together and get them to talk to each other. That's breaking down. So it's. This smart home tech and this new tech like I'm putting in my new house is should not be put people off of like, Oh, this is gonna be too much. It's not. It really is not. When you look at the individual pieces, everything works exactly as it's intended.

And it's, they're all rock solid. It's just a matter of when you start to glue them together, sometimes they want to peel back apart.

Yeah. I'm suddenly, uh. In my head, two things. I envision somebody going with a water heater and plugging it in and immediately the water heater just stands up and grows arms and just starts smashing everything in the room.

And the other thing is, you're like a t shirt idea machine. Because... As you were talking, in a hell of my own making, that should be a t shirt.

Yes. Matt Ferrell, October

9th. October 9th, 2023 will go down as a day of infamy for Matt Ferrell fans. There was also this comment that caught my eye from JMac, who jumped in to ask a question which I have actually considered.

Uh, Matt and I, when we were younger, we were tasked. As teenagers with lawn care for the home, we would be responsible for the weekly mowing of the yard, and we lived in a house with a rather large yard, and as a result, I mean, teenagers being teenagers and the yard being large, can you imagine the levels of apathy that Matt and I rolled around in, in an attempt to not have to take care of this lawn?

And I used to joke that when I owned my own home, I would macadam over the yard and would just have blacktop. I would open up a little parking lot for, for my neighbors. I, not too surprisingly, live in Brooklyn, New York and have no yard. But J Mac jumps in with this question. One thing based on the guy show tangent, is a lawn the most efficient, sustainable, and ecologically sound thing to do with your yard?

No judgment, just a question. I understand lawns are legally required in some areas. This is something that has been coming up. In the news more often, as there was recently a homeowners association, which was sued by one of the people who lived in the neighborhood, because the homeowners association was forcing this individual to remove indigenous plants, flowering plants that they were allowing to grow in their yard, and they were doing this with the vision of, it's more ecologically friendly, to this part of the country.

And this is a place for butterflies and bees to come and find the things that they need to sustain themselves. And the homeowners association was trying to force them to no, cut it all down and put it in grass. It, the lawsuit. Uh, was won by the homeowner. They were able to break the power of the homeowner's association because yes, you can't force somebody to grow grass if they are doing something which, which is ecologically actually within the place where they live.

And you were talking about your home building and your Yard care and lawn care, and it does raise some interesting questions, which is, as we move forward into more and more ecologically and environmentally friendly mindsets regarding homeownership, is the death of the yard one of those things which would actually be a positive?

Yes, big all caps, yes. And having said that I have a lawn that we're trying to grow right now in my yard, but it also depends on where you live. Um, like once the grass is growing, it's fine. It doesn't take extra effort where I live. It's like, I don't live in a drought area where I have to water my lawn every day.

It's like once the lawn is established, I never, I'll never do anything else with it other than just mow it occasionally, but it's, it's one of those, we have to get over this mindset of what we've pictured as the 1950s cookie cutter. house, which is that. What that homeowners association is clearly trying to go for.

Yeah. That's not necessarily what's right for every single area of the world. It's like you have to kind of evaluate what's appropriate for your region. It could be literally rocks. Uh, if you look, you know what I mean? There's very popular in the Southwest and it's beautiful. You can make it look great.

You don't have to have grass. So it definitely, the idea of a yard has, I think is currently. Evolving. I wouldn't say dying. It's evolving.

And it needs to. From the way back when Machine and I wanted to visit a comment from Matt's episode, Why Do American Homes Suck? There was this comment from Fode who came in to say, You, my friend, haven't seen the Dutch homes yet.

A three year old would make a better house than Dutch architects.

In our conversation about that episode, we actually talked about like some of the comparison across the board, like trying to look for apples to apples, oranges to oranges. And Matt's comparison countries for that episode was largely England and Germany. It would be interesting to take a step back. And really like break down Europe in a little more detail and also maybe break down the U.

S. in a little more detail because the U. S. context is also very varied and a house being built in Florida probably has a lot of different expectations than a house being built in Maine. Oh, radically

different. Yeah, that stuff is very different everywhere. But, but that one argument about that is like, if you're in the EU, there are at least regulations and guidance across the entire EU that create a baseline that does not exist here in the United States.

So it's like, even though Perhaps in Norway, some of the houses are horribly designed. Um, I would argue they're probably still better than here in the U. S.

That would be another interesting lens to look at, which would be taking a country where home building and home cost are roughly comparable, but look for those places where they are worse.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. That would be an interesting lens to look at. Yeah. Like finding that, finding that place where it's like, yeah, they, they could be doing even better than we are and aren't. And now onto our conversation on Matt's most recent episode, which is from October 3rd. 2023. Is a geothermal heat pump worth it?

Question mark? My net zero home. The conversation on this one started with a comment from Orasburg who came in to say, I live in Norway and installed a similar setup to yours back in 1999 and replaced the heat pump a few years back. There's one thing you didn't mention the option of having in floor radiant heating, which is basically.

Hoses that in, that are in the concrete floors cast into that foundation. It's not cheap, but the system was delivered with a hundred year warranty. So it's a long term investment. There was a lot of conversation that spawned from his initial comment. And a lot of back and forth with other commenters who are fascinated by the hundred year warranty.

Talk about brilliant marketing by a company. You put in a hundred year warranty, the hundred year warranty. There were people who said, I was on the fence until I saw the hundred year warranty and then I bought in. If the company still exists, they look like, look at us, we've always stood by our products.

If they fall flat on their face and go bankrupt, who are you going to complain to? There's no company anymore. It's, it's absolutely brilliant. And it kind of underscores the stupidity of the 90 day warranty of most products that you buy in your home. Like, wow, they don't anticipate this lasting more than three months.

Like, the reality being, nobody making a product really truly believes in that product. Yeah, you get a one year warranty with this fan. With a fan? Like, technology that has existed for more than a hundred years, you're not willing to say that

this could last. That motor should last decades. Yeah, you don't

think your own fan is going to last long, let alone, like, the AC, the hot water heater.

Like, none of, we're not even talking about that level of tech. We're talking about a fan. And you don't think it's going to last more than a year. Here we are with a company saying like a hundred years. I wanted your thoughts basically on two things. First of all, like the idea of the 100 year warranty, but also your thoughts about the floor heating system itself.

I know there are reasons, and we've talked about it briefly on the episodes, on previous episodes. Yeah. Like why you didn't go with the in floor heating.

Well, the 100 year warranty, I find ridiculous. It's like that company's basically thrown down the gauntlet of like, we're going to be here in 100 years, which seems like highly dubious, but at least as long as they're in business, they're basically saying they're going to stand behind that product, which that's pretty impressive.

Um, as far as radiant heating, it's huge. It's like, it's a great option. It's incredibly, it's like. If you want to go the most efficient way to heat your home, that's it. Would

you go, would you go so far to say that radi radiant heating is hot right now?

Oh, it's so hot, Sean.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. I'm

glad you couldn't.

The, uh, The in floor heating though, uh, is not the right fit for everybody. Like for, for me, where we live, uh, like if you're in Norway, I highly doubt you have central air conditioning, but here where I live, you kind of need air conditioning in the summer. Cause it gets brutally hot and humid here. So I needed two systems.

So if I was going to do in floor heating, that meant I needed a separate air conditioning system for the house. And that didn't make sense to me. So I opted to go one tool that could do both, which was the, uh, the air source, not the air source, but the Forced air heating and cooling system. So one system could do both.

That's why I went that route for the main reason. Um, second reason was in the more efficient homes, like my house is so efficient and holds onto the heat so well, the, the heating curve of radiant heat is like really like, like a really low sine wave. And so by the time it hits its temperature, it needs to stop heating the house.

It takes a while for it to stop heating the house. So that could create situations in my house where it could become a little. overheated and uncomfortable a little bit because the heating system and the house are both so efficient and take so long to stop heating that it could create a situation where it'd be uncomfortable.

Um, I was told by my mechanical engineer that some of the rooms like are, we have a guest bathroom that technically has no Air vent into it so there's no forced air conditioning or heat coming into the bathroom. And I asked him about that and he said, Matt, if you stood in that room and closed the door and you stood in there for five minutes, your body will provide the heat the room needs to heat up.

That's like how airtight that room and the house is. Wow. So if you're thinking about it in floor radiant heating, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense because you could very easily kind of like go too far.

So that was not the reason why we didn't do it. That sets up a really interesting image of people are on the holidays huddling around the mat in order.

It wasn't

me. Who wants, who wants cocoa?

There was this comment from Matt Schultz who jumped in the comments to say the de superheater concept is a fantastic way to save energy and cost when applied to kitchens. Commercial kitchens need a lot of usually un, of usually conditioned air flow, which generates heat through a normal DX air conditioning unit.

Most of that heat can be used to generate the hot water for food prep and dish washing. Normally, a kitchen has a few gas water heaters, but more and more, I am calling for energy recovery preheat with a gas tankless to manage final temperature. New tech is great. I'm wondering, have you seen a lot of the tech that you talk about as far as home ownership and you've also had episodes where you talk about tech on a larger scale for commercial Just non residential use because the tech just doesn't apply well to the home.

Are you... Incorporating in your own home some of those that actually bridge both. Between

you talking about commercial and

residential. Something that is a tech that is useful to the residents but also has applications like this commenter mentions, commercial kitchens. The idea of a desuperheater in that.

situation makes perfect sense. So I'm wondering how much of the tech in your own home are you seeing as like, yes, this has residential and non residential usage? Uh, well,

I, I've had a video that I put out. What was it? Almost a year ago, probably. I visited a hotel. That's kind of a passive house certified hotel.

And some of the tech that is in my house, is in that building. So like it goes into that desuperheater, they're doing heat recovery just like that. Um, I have a heat pump, uh, dryer, uh, for my clothes dryer and they had industrial sized heat pump dryers for Their stuff because it uses so much less energy.

Um, the battery storage system with solar on the roof. It's like all this kind of stuff. It goes everywhere from residential sized all the way up to commercial sized properties like Ikea buildings or hotels. It's like this stuff does scale up. There is tech. That might make more financial sense in a commercial scale where it might not make financial sense at a residential scale because it's too small, but by and large, most of the tech I've talked about in my house, absolutely kind of crosses that divide for sure.

It's interesting because from a certain, there's a certain point where when we've had conversations around like various battery forms, there are those moments where you're like, well, this is a battery tech, which nobody's going to put in their garage. It's not right. It's not the right. It's not the right tech for the home.

But a lot of the stuff that you are talking about, which are, they aren't even background things. They're not the things like, Oh, I don't even think about the fact I've got iron studs in the wall. Like you're talking about your. Dryer, your hot water heater. You're talking about the tech that you are actively using.

I would think there's a certain amount of comfort you get from knowing that this is a technology which is not a one off niche tech, but is becoming widely used even in commercial because when it's And if it's that, uh, well used, you're going to have an easier time replacing, repairing, or finding various options that keep the prices down for you.

Yeah, exactly.

No, it's, it, it, the more common it becomes, the better it is for all of us because of that reason itself. You get more people who know the tech, can repair the tech, more parts available. Uh, then there's also the, the track record of seeing that, Oh, it's been in this hotel for the past 20 years, I'm putting in my house, I'm going to be pretty comfortable with it.

So there's a trust that comes

with it. The final comment I wanted to share was this one from Spencer Allridge who wrote in to say Matt, you are so right. Setting goals is the only way you can develop the correct yardstick by which to measure any system. This has been a really interesting series and very helpful to me as we plan our mountain home in North Carolina.

Thank you so much for putting effort into your videos. Just we've talked about this before, like there's not one tool. For every job, and you talked last time we, we spoke about this idea of setting a goal for yourself, thinking about what your goal is. I'm wondering, have you just instinctively landed that In that kind of thinking, or was there something you read or studied to help you better understand?

Like, how do I set goals for myself? How do I evaluate what I'm doing in whatever it is, building a new home, setting up a new business? This may not be a

surprise to you, Sean, but like... I was a user experience designer and UI designer for decades, and that's where it really comes from. It's like when you're designing a user experience for a piece of software for somebody to use, what is the goal of the user?

What are they trying to achieve? And then you design the experience around that to make it as seamless and smooth as possible for them to achieve their goals with as few of those like little rough edges and cuts that happen along the way. That's the whole point. And so it's like when I was making these videos, designing this house, it all came down to the same thing of like, what are my goals?

I have to know what my goals are. If I don't know what my goals are, I'm going to be buying tech I don't need. I'm going to be overspending money. It's going to be a waste. And so it's something I always try to Drill home in my videos when I'm talking about is solar panels, are solar panels worth it? I can't tell that for you.

I don't know what your goals are. So you have to establish what your goals are. And to me, it's always really funny when I see in the comments of solar panels aren't worth it. Bam. And they could drive, do some kind of mic drop as to why solar panels suck. And it's like, that's according to your beliefs and goals.

That is not. According to what I've, what my goals are. So it's like, it's a very personal decision as to why you wanna do this stuff. Um, but yeah, it ties back to my, my career before YouTube.

It's, it's hitting me right now that it's very, I wonder if there's something there for you to look into and explore as far as teaching that aspect right to an audience of a skillset that you learned from doing.

Does that kind of model exist for people who want to learn how to do that? And if not, is that something that you could start to provide? I think it would be very useful. It's going

to sound like I'm selling my course, but I have my Achieve Energy Security with Solar Guide that I put together and I sell on my website.

And one of the first things in the early chapters of that course is I teach like, let's establish what your goals are. Let's figure out what your goals are. And I walk through that process a little bit. Um, but that is something I probably should Do more explicitly. Um, that's an interesting idea for doing a video on the channel around some of this stuff.

Cause yeah, that's goal setting. I think everybody has that muscle, but they just don't exercise it enough. So it's just a matter of kind of teaching people how to exercise that muscle.

It's not only how to exercise that muscle, but to recognize that muscle even exists or that there's a, or there's a use case for it.

I think a lot of times, and I know this from personal experience, uh, and it's, and it, I, maybe this conversation doesn't even make it into the video. Who knows what the final edit will hold, but, uh, I'm fascinated by that because it is so the antithesis of my professional approach. And I'm talking about from my writing, where for me, it is all about, well, you pour the water at the top and you see the path it takes.

Yeah, no effort. Like, oh, you follow the path and then it kind of gets stuck. So you have to go back a few steps and reinvent it. And like a lot of trial and error, a lot of no goal other than I know generally where this story is supposed to go. That is fine. And it is, and it is the antithesis of like sitting down and saying like, I got to hit A, B, and C.

How do I do that efficiently? So for me, my Professional experience, uh, has been one of a lot of trial and error. And a lot of frustration and I'm very curious about what you describe and as you were describing it thinking like, how would I apply that for myself, for my work? Like, is that something I could and should be doing?

Would I find more efficiencies? Would I have a different response within myself to the angst of getting into the work and thinking, Oh yeah, I'm starting a chapter now where I don't know what's headed. I don't know where the end is. I don't know. So I'm, I'm really fascinated by that idea of, I think that muscle, I think that muscle that is there.

I think you do it though.

I think you do it though. I think you do it and you don't realize you're doing it. 'cause like when you have that goal, I would, I would agree. Because like as, as a user experience designer, you're kind of taking a step forward. You're going, what's the ultimate goal that's trying to happen now?

How can we guide that water? To try to get there as smoothly as possible. And then you design that system and then you let users use it. And then you watch them and go, Oh, oh, they're not doing what I thought. The water kind of overflowed here and they found their own way over here. And it's like, okay, I have to redesign that section and figure out how we can kind of smooth that out.

Because what we thought was the best path wasn't the best path. So it's a little bit of, there's a lot of back and forth in user experience design around that. And I think you're doing that when you're like, you probably have an overarching goal of your storytelling. But then you do organically let it kind of just go in that general direction.

Yes. And, and I guess what I'm describing is you take two people to the top of a mountain and you put them on skis and the one person is like, I've thought about what skiing is at the bottom of the mountain. I've thought about like, how do I? How do I control this? How do I like, if I turn my way this way, I will slow down.

If I go this way, I will speed up. And the other person hasn't done that. Both of them can make it to the bottom of the mountain. One of them will definitely make it to the bottom faster than the other one, but it might not be the one who wants to get down there quite that fast. And so I think that there's, I think that there's the foresight.

And there's forethought. And, and I think that a lot of people, and I'm talking about myself primarily now. Accidentally conflate the two, foresight and forethought are not necessarily the same and that occurs to me in this moment of you describing what it means to be a goal setter and so I'm, I'm, I go back again and you mentioned the course that you have and how that's a component of the course, uh, I can't help but think, is there a course even separate from that of what does it mean to be Set goals.

What is goal setting? How to do that? Very interesting. Very like just a tangent there, but I hope that if that makes it into the video, I hope it's one that is interesting for our listeners and viewers. So jump to the comments and let us know what you thought about this conversation. Thank you as always for your comments.

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