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On the road training schools in Trust-Based Observations trainings, we periodically see absolute teaching brilliance during our 20-minute observations. It dawned on us that we have an obligation to share this brilliance with all teachers so they can learn and grow from one another. Each episode is an interview with one of these teachers where we explore their strengths as they share their tips and tricks. Tips and tricks that definitely lead to improved teaching and learning.
Speaker:
Welcome to 20 minutes of teaching brilliance on the road with trust-based observations. Every week while training school leaders, Craig Randall, the developer of trust-based observations, witnesses brilliant teaching during their 20 minute observations. Wanting to share that teaching brilliance with others, we talk shop with those teachers learning what they do that is so impactful. We hope you enjoy.
Craig:
Hi and welcome to another edition of 20 minutes of teaching brilliance on the road with trust based observations. A while back I was out at the John Cooper school in the beautiful Woodlands, Texas and saw some really, really amazing teaching that week. And one of the teachers I saw was Megan Moggach and she's a physics teacher. Not necessarily my trade, but is now. I think what really stood out to me was one, her enthusiasm and passion, but just her modeling and how engaging it was and her use of questions and checks for understanding and all kinds of amazing stuff. with that, I think what I'll do is let Megan introduce herself to you. So Megan, how about you say hi to everybody and maybe tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got to where you're at in your career.
Megan:
Sure. Hi, my name is Megan and I've been teaching for about 18 years. I was trained, I guess, in Ontario, did my teacher training at Queen's University, but I have a bachelor in mathematics from the University of Waterloo. And then I went back and did a master's of mathematics for teachers also from the University of Waterloo. I like had hoped to teach and travel for my whole life. And so I started my career. in Monterrey, Mexico, and I taught math and phys ed there. But love brought me to Alberta. then I taught.
Craig:
As it always does.
Megan:
Yeah, right. So then I taught in the private school system in Alberta. Started out with just math and then math and physics for about the 10 years, 10, 15 years before I came here. I've been at the John Cooper School for three years teaching AP Physics and this year also teaching some level physics.
Craig:
Super. Well, thank you so much for the background. I appreciate it. And being a Seattleite, we love our Canadians very much. So always good to chat with a Canadian. Look, think like when we were talking before we went on the air, I think the thing that really stood out to me, I mean so much, but It's just like your passion and your enthusiasm and how in game. I it was a physics class and an AP higher level physics class. Like you have to teach content, right? Not everything can be labs and they're going to be tested on it. Is there too much content in AP classes or IB classes? I think we can all agree. Yes, way too much content, but we don't control that. So the reality is we still have to prepare our kids for those tests. So in these classes, we have to, we have to lecture. That's a part of it, perhaps more than we'd like to, but it doesn't matter. We have to get it done. And so how do we do that though, in a way? So it sticks. So it resonates with the kids. they do well on their tests. And that sounds, I don't even think so they will do well. That's a practicality. So they learn what we want them to learn. And the side is also so that they do well on their tests. That's always a tricky one. But let's just talk about that and talk about engagement and enthusiasm. You started to talk about. before like your kind of your pillars and maybe just start with that and then we'll take it wherever it goes from there.
Megan:
Yeah, sure. Anytime I teach, whether it's physics or math, I have to say that like, as long as I know my stuff, you know, that I like I feel grounded in the content that I'm introducing. And I care about the kids that are in the classroom, then I feel like you can do a lot from there. I always just try to start with what they already know and move through lectures kind of in a like you saw with a question and answer sort of vibe and yeah.
Craig:
Yeah, I'm going to push you for so much more. No, no, don't be sorry at all. So it's really interesting and all the time that I've been doing these interviews. you're the first person that's really mentioned content and the importance of content. And I think in some ways there can be a tendency to take that for granted, especially maybe at the elementary level when perhaps, even though it's a broad base, the depth of the level of content isn't as high because of developmentally where they're at. doesn't have to be there. so just maybe talk a little bit about the, and it's physics, of course, and I'll tell you a little science story. It's just, this is... he was Canadian too. So that's really interesting. I had a teacher that I came into school in my first principalship and he was a great kid. But the person who before had brought them in to be the new physics teacher and it was IB physics, the kid didn't have the kid, you know, how patronizing. But anyway, he didn't have the requisite skills in physics and the kids were calling him out on it early on. And it was just a misplacement. They'd done that. especially if you get to higher level, that really does matter. So maybe let's just touch a bit more on that and then I'm gonna push more into your enthusiasm and passion because that's a big key too.
Megan:
Sure. I think that what you'd seen with like the questioning, it comes a little bit more naturally when you know exactly what you're talking about and you can ask poignant questions and you can start at the kind of like surface layer asking questions that you think are like low lying fruit. for the students to kind of like grab at. Because like kind of then you get them, you know? Once they're excited about answering one or two questions, then there is kind of more buy-in from the students. But I think that-
Craig:
It's maybe when you're talking about accessing prior knowledge. So you're starting with the base of maybe what we did yesterday, the last few days, then to help build a front there.
Megan:
And I guess like gives you kind of like the opportunity to go off script and engage with the kids a little bit more.
Craig:
Facing how they respond.
Megan:
Yeah. And when you have that like depth of understanding, like learned really early on, especially with AP physics that like you can't be afraid to tell them that they're wrong when they've answered something in a like kind and respectful way. know, it doesn't seem to deter them from answering questions, which is great.
Craig:
But that happens because of the relationships you've built. Let's be clear on that, because the way you say something when somebody misses it matters hugely,
Megan:
It does. For sure it does. Yeah. And I think it allows like kind of like classroom pivots and creative questioning from this, like from the students even when they have questions about something. I just think that engagement piece and interaction piece couldn't happen unless you like really understood like like what you're teaching and why you're teaching it, what came before it, what comes after it, the sequencing, like all of that really matters so that kind of you can have this free flowing discussion. And, you know, when I was new to AP Physics, I can remember like that it doesn't feel easy in that way. It's good to have like lecture notes to kind of lean back on. But, you know, I've only been teaching AP Physics three years now. But even just like just a couple of years is sort of enough as long as you have that foundation to see the through line of the content so that you can ask and answer questions and be engaged in that way.
Craig:
I'm hearing so much. I'm hearing. One thing I heard you say without really saying it is you're talking about real world connections and you're making real world connections as a way to draw the kids in. as well into it as you're talking about the physics. When I listen to you talk about it, there's that Maslow before Bloom's that's going, you have to the core of the relationship and stuff before you can get into the higher stuff. And what I hear you saying is almost like content is foundational. And without the content, how can I really get into all the other parts about me as a teacher? that really helped me to connect to my students. And so that's a really interesting way that you talked about it that's making me think about it. Like, yeah, how important that is, especially when you're on the higher order to have that content base of that as a foundation. I think as we talk more about it, like your passion though, right? And like, you know, you're like giddy bouncing off the. sealing almost with your excitement and passion and enthusiasm when you're talking to that kids and you know, maybe it's physics, but you told me you're a math person. and perhaps you've developed it, but part of it to me is I don't know. There's something I did, but it's like. I'm going let you go there for now.
Megan:
Sure. I think the passion is genuine, it's like maybe it's like less about the content itself. And I'm just like enthusiastic to teach these kiddos like they want to learn. And like as I see them kind of like stepping through their understanding, like that's the part that's exciting. You know, it could be we could be doing quadratics in a math class. We could be learning derivatives for the first time. We could be introducing forces like we were in that in that. lesson, it's like kind of less about the content. I mean, I love math and physics. like, I mean, like, that's the piece I couldn't I don't think I could be teaching an English class like that. It would be it would be all big trouble. Right. Yeah. But I think that like enthusiasm piece is like, feeding off the interest of the students who like want to learn like that's the piece I think that even just like keeps me in education. is that kids want to learn new things and they're jazzed to know that. And so that's the piece for me, think, generates my enthusiasm. It's not so much the content itself.
Craig:
Fair enough. Fair enough. so what I'm hearing you say is you're partially feeding off of their interest and enthusiasm. But let's be real. every kid in that class. I mean, it's AP Physics, so maybe every kid. Some of them were probably doing it because they know it'll look good on a college application or whatever. so you're not going to get every kid enthused. I mean, when we did your lesson and I was going over and looking at the observation form, there was some differentiation things. And two of the three differentiation things were about like, the that might not be getting as well, the kids that those kids, we didn't talk specifically, that might not be as enthused about physics. And so what about though, I'm gonna push for more because I think that's part of it. And maybe those ones that are interested is fueling some of your passions. Some of it I think it's just you're a passionate person. But some of it though, not every kid fits into that bucket of wanting to learn. Some of those kids are just in that class for a different reason. So there's more to it than that. I don't know what it is, but I'm pushing for it because I'm just so curious.
Megan:
I mean, the way the world works is like exciting. don't like that's true. And as we kind of like unveil the pieces in in that mechanics course, I want them to understand. I just want them to understand all of the nitty gritty pieces of why the elements, know, why the physics principles. work and how they look in different, I guess, applications and also in different modalities. And I think being able to show and talk through and explain and derive and watching students make those connections, like I think it's pretty exciting, I guess.
Craig:
what are they going do? Go ahead.
Megan:
Like, I don't know. I want them to bring their A game to class, so I bring my A game to class.
Craig:
Yeah. Yeah. So that's your own preparation and passion and all that as well, along with your content. What I'm also I think I'm hearing you say is like, Craig, I just geek out over physics and I can't help myself when I get super excited about it in some ways. but I think that's like I see that sometimes. And passion is contagious. Like in I'm from Seattle, so it's a very exciting time here since we just won the Super Bowl. so like passion on the players and like it's contagious and it carries over to everyone else. And so what I'm hearing you say, and I think that really resonates with what I saw that day is like you're so excited about that. you were doing something with keys, some modeling thing with keys. I wish I could remember what it was, but it was really good. And then there was something with friction and there was a something you had and was a shoe which are kind of sticky on the bottom and it wouldn't slide but you kept raising the angle until finally the force of the angle won out over the friction of the shoe, right? And so even like I think you're passionate about thinking about what are my modeling or demonstrating that's going to be interesting to the kids and I know what I'm explaining it talking about a shoe and a board doesn't sound exciting but I'm telling you when we were in there it was really cool and fun to watch. So somehow that must all tie in there too.
Megan:
Yeah. I would say like just about every day I have people out of their seat and I like pick a volunteer, try to always pick someone different to like push in a chair or like throw a ball at or you know, whatever they can like
Craig:
Playfully throw a ball at just for any listeners.
Megan:
Yes. Yes. See, do touch feel to kind of like like bring all of their understandings into the same plane, of. the things that they see and do need to kind of like coexist with the math on their page, needs to coexist with the physics principles that they're understanding conceptually. so I think that's like modeling has a big role in that. And I mean, it's easier to be enthusiastic when you're like up and moving and the students are. all in front of you. Like I make them stand up and go to the back of the class. So we're all together and then, okay, come back to the front of the class. Okay, sit back down in your seats. And so I think it's easier to keep the energy level higher when we are kind of at least I'm moving around.
Craig: 15:47
Right. And you're for sure you have that. And but I think the thing about that is like we're talking about it like in an AP physics class, like obviously we have labs and that's easy when the labs are happening. But you're having that happen in the in the lecture part of the class where that engagement is there. like one of the things that we talk about is in like when we're training and we talk about there's there's seven way eight ways that teachers help students learn lecture, direct instruction, the use of audio visual demonstration model. And we talked a little bit about that reading class discussion and there's three more, but we'll skip those for now. But when we talk about class discussion, we talk about like, and we talk about things as either the receptive or the. And class discussion is, along with reading, are one of the two where we say they can be receptive or they can be active. And we always say, generally it's receptive when a teacher's asking questions and one student at a time is answering, because the other kids are just sitting there. And then we say it's usually active, like when the kids have a whiteboard or they're partnering as the class discussion is there, or it's a Socratic seminar or something like that. so, and we, but one of the things that I tell people during the training, the school leaders is, Sometimes in a textbook definition, you'd see something you'd say, oh, one kid is answering at a time. So that's a receptive class discussion. we say sometimes it'll look like one kid is answering and they are, but something in your gut is telling you every kid is on the edge of their seat, ready and engaged and want to answer, even though they can't all answer because just one kid at a time is answering. And so it feels active and we're going to call it active because we trust our gut. situations. And it doesn't happen that often but that is exactly what happened that day in your class. It's a lecture, it's a bunch of class discussion, lecture and class discussion. That was the whole thing you were doing. You're talking, explaining things and asking questions and it's back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And so textbook, it's receptive but it wasn't. It was active. Every kid is like, oh can I answer or oh tell me more and like there's Tell me about that.
Megan:
I think it's a lecture style that I just developed over time, maybe. I think that if I were to just stand and talk for 80 minutes that like no one would want to take AP Physics, so I think that my opportunity to engage students in thinking about the physics and like what comes next is starting off with low-lying fruit questions that I believe like everyone has knows the answer to this question, whether they want to choose to answer it or not. I try to start there. When I think pieces of the puzzle are close but not together, I'm going to ask that question instead of revealing it to them. When a student asks a question that is something I just answered, I will typically let another student answer it. I try to make sure that there is enough back and forth in class that it's not only my voice that students are hearing as much as possible. Yeah, when I've heard a student answer a question and I know that they know the, like, yeah, I think that it just allows students to... verbalize either things that they already know, but also encourages them to ask questions as we go through the lectures. The more that you ask questions either to yourself or out loud with content, you know, the more mud will stick to the wall, so to speak, right? You'll like be able to revisit it later. I've been encouraging kids to even just like write their questions down on paper while we're lecturing so that If they don't get an opportunity to ask that question, then I can come back to it.
Craig:
Access to prior knowledge, using peers to answer student voice as much as possible, blending modeling in all these different things are are factoring into it. And I still think that passion is factoring into it somehow, some way. And sometimes it's just a magic that we know that we have or whatever. But it but you are really passionate about it. And I think about like as you as you're mentioning it for like if I lectured for 80 minutes straight and and if we think about Like as much as I'm in class as observing people which I think is more than any human being Like if we think about math and physics, those are probably the two most traditionally taught classes Hey, here's a problem. Let me do the problem for you or we'll do it together. Okay, I really look back at the class We say, okay, everybody got it? Great, here's the next problem. And we do that for the whole time, except for the last seven minutes. And we say, okay, now answer one through 33 odd, and the ones you don't finish are homework, right? And that's not what you're doing.
Megan:
I won't lie, I kind of thought it was. I think that's like, like the highlight of TBO for me was to identify the things that I hadn't really thought that I was doing. Had I gotten it, you know?
Craig:
We're going to come back to TBO and your thoughts on TBO in a little bit. So there's something with it though that you're doing that's, because it's not that, because it's too engaged. I think the modeling really factors into it. I think, let's move to the questioning, because I think that questions and the checks for understanding and descriptive progress feedback, I think that factor into it as well, because you're constantly asking questions and you're constantly asking questions how and why, and they're always pushing for more. And I know they're questions, but they're also checking for their understanding. And based on what they say, it's something else too. to check further for their understanding or to push it back to, they're not quite getting it or whatever. So let's talk about the connection between the use of questions and based on their answers, which those are the checks for understanding, what kind of feedback you're giving. so much of the time, your feedback is also what we call coaching. It's where you're using questions you're not telling. Very little of the time were you telling, you were saying things to get more out or perhaps have the peer get more out of them with the sharing like you said. So how about you talk about those elements?
Megan:
Sure. I think that when I ask a question, I sometimes already know what they're going to say and that can like tee us all up. But you're right. Like sometimes they answer a question and I'm like, oh, that was not what I expected. And that gets me. Yeah. And so I think it's the only real way to reveal misunderstandings before they're like writing it down on a quiz or a test or something like that. And so when those misunderstandings are revealed and there are plenty in physics of misunderstandings or misunderstanding of concepts or how they're applied. And if you don't ask the like how questions in physics, then you don't know to which depth. the students understand the physics concepts or how they're tying together the connections. know, physics can be thought of as just like, if-then cases or just like, and students think that if they just see enough cases, then they can address all different problems. But that's not really what it is. And that's why think-
Craig:
That's not transfer into learning either.
Megan:
Yeah, it's not like a show and tell situation. And so I think the reason why the questioning maybe came through so much in the physics class, and maybe it wasn't something that I did in math classes now that I'm thinking about it, I don't know, is that like, you really have to understand the like, how and why, so that you can extend your understanding, like you won't be able to transfer those models to new scenarios unless you have a good grip on like, why is it that way? Or like, what was the precondition? Or can we always apply it this way? Like where are those pieces? And I think that that is maybe the crux of where all of the questioning comes from in physics is because it's crucial to be able to extend your understanding and do another problem that's a novel problem. If you have to know the answers to those questions.
Craig:
So it's so when misunderstandings are revealed, you've got to ask further to know what those misunderstandings are and the hows and the whys oftentimes get that because knowing it's not enough, knowing the reasoning behind it is key if we're going to have transference, which is what we want for real world, whether they become physicists or not, most of them aren't. So when that's happening, though, Like this ties in back to the active class discussion. Like obviously you know your students, so you know generally which ones are gonna get it right and which ones might miss it. And generally we'd say when that's happening in that class discussion way, we would say, okay, well that one kid knows, but what do we know about the rest of the kids? But because there's something about that active class discussion where every kid is on the edge of their seat, while that's happening, my vibe as we're doing it is even though you're not, I mean over the class you're hearing from all the kids multiple times. So the audience knows that. But my sense is that you're really understanding where every kid is by the end of the class, even though every kid's not answering every question. And that's rare. So just tell me something about that.
Megan:
I don't know if that's something I necessarily noticed, but you're right. It's a small class. I think that's important for everybody to know because it's a little easier. it's a little easier to manage with 12. And I do think knowing the students well is super important. I don't know if this matters or not, but at the beginning of the year, I always interview. I make them have an appointment with me at the beginning of the school year so that I know what Sorry, the lights just came back on. I just need to know what motivates them. I don't know. I just get to know them. And I think that that helps me push them in class. It also helps me read them. Their non-verbal cues are really easy to read when I know them a little bit better. And so then I don't have to ask maybe every student every question. And maybe that's the piece that was missing.
Craig:
That's really interesting. obviously, if I've got 35 kids in my class and however many classes I've got, that might be harder. But boy, if you could find the time to do those one on ones. One, you're building relationship right off the bat. then two, like, do you have a set list of questions you use or do you just let each question conversation kind of free flow or a combination?
Megan:
Yeah, I do like an intake form. That sounds really sterile, but I just I have them answer a bunch of questions that's varies a little bit from year to year. I read their answers and then I ask them questions about their answers. So the meeting can be, it's usually about 10 minutes. I want to know what their goals are. I asked them to set a standard, not a goal grade, which is, yeah, like I'm a fitness person. And so I don't know if you know who Tunde is. She's Peloton instructor. She's amazing. But she has this thing that says, A goal is a wish, a standard keeps you accountable. And I love it so much because I tell students like, I don't want to know what your ceiling is. Like everyone wants an A plus or whatever, you know, like, like tell me what that minimum threshold is between like, happiness and miscontentment. Like, like whatever that threshold is, that bottom line, I want to know what that is so that when you get, when you're playing with that line, I can, that's, that's where I know I can like engage and support. And so I think that's probably one of the most important questions that I tackle because it's hard to talk about like the floor of contentment for students, you know, because then it reveals, I think it reveals a little bit more knowing the talk. But yeah, we do that. I try to have them done in the first two, three weeks of school. And then and then we only revisit as necessary.
Craig:
That is really cool. think when we ask for your to share your contact information, I think there might be people that might want to see that questionnaire because it sounds really cool. Why don't we, before we finish, maybe have you talk about a little bit about like your experience with trust-based observations and we were there for the training and what do you want to talk about it in comparison to ways you've been observed or whatever else is up to you. But I'm just curious how TVO has landed for you.
Megan:
Yeah. I've actually already had my second observation too, Alexis came in and what I liked most about it is that, well, it's short, so y'all weren't there for the whole thing.
Craig:
20 minutes for listeners,
Megan:
Yeah. And when we were going through all of the feedback, it was interesting to not only see all of the good things that I guess I was doing pedagogically highlighted that would never have occurred to me. were sound pedagogical practices or could be defined that way. But it was also interesting to see all the things that were available, all of the toolboxes that are linked within the form. And you're not judged for having not done those things. But I think it's nice to have that available resource in case you're thinking about how could I teach this differently, what could I have done differently. But there was never, that was my own, I put that lens on it.
Craig:
Yeah, we didn't tell you anything.
Megan:
Everything just gets focused on like what you did and what they saw that day.
Craig:
There's a positive framework. And I think because we do that, feel you feel more relaxed. So it's easier for you to look at the form and see something that wasn't filled in, which is again, is not a big deal and go. Plus you couldn't fill in everything in every lesson anyway, and then look at it more with like, oh, I could do that or whatever. Whereas I think if we were grading you, think it's harder for you to not be defensive or whatever.
Megan:
Yeah. It was definitely a different experience than I'd previously had. I was saying like my last school, wasn't observed very often at all and only just for my certification in Alberta. And that was really, it had a purpose. You know, that observation was not just that it had a purpose. It was an end goal of like, you will be a teacher now.
Craig:
You've passed, yes, you can be retained or whatever, and not so much really about growth. And I think they idealize being about growth and evaluation, but the reality is it's difficult to do both at the same time. And so when you separate it, people react more favorably. Yeah, surprisingly. Or the other thing that you said is a lot of times we're just doing our thing and we're preparing and thinking about it. But then when you go back and you see someone point out all the strengths that you saw, It's like, oh gosh, I am doing a good job, which is nice because teaching's hard.
Megan:
Yeah, it was definitely a huge pat on the back. I felt that way anyways. was very positive.
Craig:
And obviously, we have you on the podcast because we thought it was amazing, but I just want to say to listeners out there, we see lessons that aren't as strong, but when we focus on positives anyway, just like we would with students, no matter whether it's my best student or my students that's struggling the most. we always want to start from strength because we want to take you where you're at to wherever's next. so it's not just my strongest people that are on the podcast that feel the same way when they finish an observation. It's everyone feels the same way too, and it matters. And it's so much easier to support growth working from where you're at in a positive way than from what's wrong and needs to be fixed. So, Megan, I think there's going to be people especially wanting to get that questionnaire. that might want to reach out. so would you mind sharing your professional email address so somebody can if they're interested?
Megan:
Do want me to say it out loud? Yeah.
Craig:
Yeah. I definitely do.
Megan:
It's just m-m-o-g-g-a-c-h at johncooper.org.
Craig:
Super. And we'll put that in the show notes. Megan, thank you so much. It's been a blast. It was a blast watching you and it was so much fun to get to chat again today. So thank you so much.
Megan:
Thanks for having me.
Speaker:
Thank you for listening to 20 minutes of teaching brilliance. If the show resonated with you, you can help other teachers by liking, sharing and subscribing. More importantly, if you don't like the way you're being evaluated, don't like being nitpicked and scored, then check out Trust Based Observations at TrustBased.com. where we know the path to growth is through safe spaces for risk-taking. Tell your principal about it and change your school's observations to a model of trust and support and join the thousands of teachers who now experience the joy of observations the way they're meant to be done.