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Brand Growth Heroes ranks in the top 1.5% of ALL podcasts globally. With +25 years' experience working for brand giants and as coach to over 400 challenger brand founders, Fiona Fitz asks the questions you need the answers to from the founders of wildly successful consumer goods brands driving transformational growth.
BGH - Ruby Wuka
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[00:00:00] Ruby Wright from WUKA. Welcome to Brand Growth Heroes. How are you doing today? I'm good. Thank you Fiona. It's so great to see you in, actually in person. I feel like we're friends, even though we have never seen each other in person because we did have a phone call about three years ago before I got diagnosed with cancer.
And we had a click and watching you grow your business, grow the impact that you're having on people's lives. And you're incredible. You're absolutely incredible. Can't wait to share your story on Brand Growth Heroes. So start by telling us for those listeners who don't know what WUCA is, what it is, where to find it, and then tell us how you ended up building the business and how you did it.
So RUKA actually stands for wake up kickass, and we wanted to bring like a very positive note to period. And, um, if [00:01:00] we do design and sell period underwear, uh, underwear that absorbs your blood, absorbs your sweat, absorbs your pee. Um, and then basically they are leak proof underwear, and you just wash them.
Reuse them again. So they are reusable period underwear or sweat proof underwear or pee proof underwear, whatever you call it. Uh, but basically they're an absorbent apparel that you can wear whilst reuse. Um, they will save tons of tampons and pats going to landfill. Um, they are super comfortable and save you tons amount of money as well.
First in the UK, right? Weren't you the first brand in the UK? We read the first in the UK. So in 2017, we actually coined the term period pants. There was no category in there at that time, because in the UK we call it pants, right? In America, they call it underwear or undies kind of way. So in the Google, you have to go and search period pants.
And if that did not exist, then you got to create it. So very much. Yes. And did this exist in the USA or somewhere else before [00:02:00] you? They did. They did. Uh, and they were very much like your just leak proof underwear. So you'd still have to wear pads and tampons with, on your heavy days. So they were very much like a protective kind of underwear.
Um, but yeah, for me, it didn't serve the purpose. If you're making period underwear, make it a period underwear, you know, like you don't have to use anything. And I think that was such a new concept for people. Like what you just free bleed into your pants. Absolutely. And if you, I can remember when I came across that thought, no, it's not possible.
It's not going to work. It's not going to work. And I tried it. And it did work and it was incredible and no smell and no feeling and no anything. It was just an incredible thing. So tell us, how did you end up building this business? Because the business I heard, just to give people an idea, you employ 17 people.
And do you mind sharing with us what kind of size the business is in terms of turnover? We are doing roughly, nearly, well, nearly 5 million turnover at the moment with 17 people. And loads of growth. And bootstrapped. Bootstrapped. [00:03:00] Bootstrapped. Oh my God. Pants strapped. Strapped. Pants strapped. Strapped by the seat of your pants.
Okay, so start at the beginning. Tell everyone this amazing story. People keep listening. This, you're not going to believe this. Go for it. So, it all starts. When I was 12 years old and, and I, nothing clicked in until I started the business, right? So 12, I'm at home in Nepal, my first period. My mom gives me this, her oldest sari, very absorbent cotton, and then she cuts them into small pads and unfolds it.
And she says to me like, these are your menstrual product for the rest of your life. And at the same age, she goes to me, um, well, this is your first period. So you can't stay at home because you can't be seen by your dad. So she told, she tells me to go and stay at my aunt's house. And my aunt has got two cousins and I was actually really excited and looking forward to staying with them only to realize that when I went to their house, very much, I had this [00:04:00] tiny room, a bed on the floor, cups, bowl, plate separated.
And very much. You're not allowed to come seven days out of that room. And it's petrifying, you know, like when you are so young, when you want just love and cuddles and fun and play with everyone, you're just being isolated. And I felt horrible. The horrible part was like, when the food was often passed on the floor, rather than even given in hand, because you were really deemed as one of the most untouchable, dirty person, you know?
So I came back home and I told my mom, I was like, I'm never going to do this again. And what did she say? It was just, she said like, Oh, you don't have to do it. But you know, culturally every four days, a month, you can't go to kitchen. You can't cook, you can't clean. We will serve you everything. And now I know the story behind it, why they did it because, you know, um, In my great grandmother's time, they never had any pads or any, [00:05:00] even cloth pad, you know?
So when they had their periods, they used to walk around, there used to be a trail of blood. So my great grandfather used to say like, oh, why don't you just sit in the corner? And that segregation of sitting in the corner became like, a part of our culture of like segregation. It's across the whole country in Nepal.
Yes. Yes. Even now, even now, no matter how educated you are, you know, like you still see like women sleeping on the floor while men sleeping on the bed, you know, like not allowed to go to temple, not allowed to attend wedding funerals. And do you mind me asking, what about, um, Nepalese, uh, people who've moved to the UK and, you know, generations as it stands?
It's still existing in the UK, this segregation and cultures. It is maybe not like segregation of home kind of way, but like segregation within the house. If you look at the Asian culture as well, even now here in Indian culture and stuff, they still won't go to temple when they're on the period. So it's very much ingrained in who we are.
Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, so you're 12, you've had that [00:06:00] experience and what happens next? Then I, I think the worst part was then what it began. I went to school, my school, despite it was like a fee paying school, we literally had two toilets, one for the teachers and elder, the kids. And then every, all the junior went into one canal.
So basically we have this long canal, everybody's a squatting wee, and the trail of the wee used to go to the boys side and then out, I don't know, somewhere in the field. I still don't know where it used to go. But when you're on your period, uh, the whole school knows that you're on your period because you've got a trail of blood running through, right?
So quite a lot of the time that kind of embarrassment, but also you didn't have any changing facilities. You didn't have washing facilities. Um, so sometimes whenever we used to play a game, the pad used to be heavy and fall off and create this whole drama of like, Like everybody's just watching you. Oh my God.
So we used to literally pick that pad up and then just run home and that's it. [00:07:00] And then that really put me off from coming to school. As I grew older, I started like then inventing things. I started like safety pinning my pad on the front and the back. Sometimes it came undone and that was a horrible experiment to do.
Um, then I started wearing multi layer underwear. At one point I started doing like underwear and my mom's sari and then another underwear. So in a way that When I was young, I was like kind of prototyping and inventing, uh, didn't realize at that time, I would just like any, anything I would do to keep that pad in its place and not make it move.
That was my, and then I started watching this TV adverts on like Indian television, um, about this pad called, there used to be a company called Whisper. Because obviously you can't tell anyone, right? You just have to whisper. I know. And, um, that was my first ever bought product was like, I went to my pharmacy and bought a pad with my pocket money.
And I was so excited to try this thing. Right [00:08:00] at home. And then I realized that he actually gave me a maternity pad halfway. It was very much like a mesh with stuffed cotton in it. And I was like, Oh my God, this is hideous thing. Um, but the challenge was like more, more than the usage. It was once you use it, you didn't have been, you didn't have, you didn't know where to throw it, what to do with it.
Yeah. I was listening to you on a podcast this morning and you were saying that you didn't have any bins. At home, because you ate fresh food and you know, that's incredible. But just for the maternity pad side of things, how did you dispose of that? Because I'm just thinking, you know, I have a daughter who's 14 and I was 12, 14.
Life is difficult enough for teenagers with their changing bodies, but to be dealing with, you know, where do I put this pad or, you know, peeing into canal and, and knowing that the color of the blood was going to show up in the boys, all of that would give a child today PTSD, you know, like. [00:09:00] The anxiety, how is like half of Nepal, 50 percent of Nepal not suffering from incredible anxiety from those formative years?
But I suppose if, if everyone's going through it, it becomes, is it less? I don't know. I think there are other things to actually give you more anxiety than your period, I guess, in day to day life, you know, like. I grew up in a very patriarchal society and very much at that time when I was growing up on top of my mind was like, how do I be better than boys?
Like the boys were like treated like so big thing. And for me, it was just like, my focus was like anything that can make me better than boys. And I think that was my thought. And. All my feelings were going into it rather than actually. So it's all relative, really. It's in a frame, isn't it? Different frame, the girls today.
God, it's incredible. We, you know, I just realize how, and I mean this in, in, in the best possible way, how lucky some people are to be born into the bodies that they're [00:10:00] born into, you know, and it's, I mean, it's just, So inequitable, isn't it really? Okay. So, so you're already experimenting and your mindset, that's really interesting.
Your mindset is that, how can I be better than boys? That's really incredible. Um, so there was this spark within you, obviously from a very young age. So what happened next? So then my teenage year just goes trying to iterate different things. Um, I moved to UK. When I was 20, um, this was in 2010 and my first three years of my life in the UK were just mind blowing, you know, everything was like magnified in like a different scale and different level.
The amount of things that we had in place in here, we still have in place that the privileges that we have got, it just. Insane. Like, um, I remember going to the supermarket for the first time and, and I'm seeing like an entire aisle just [00:11:00] dedicated to period product, you know? And you think of it, you've got one with wings, without wings, tampon with strings, like, you know, like something completely alien.
Uh, but it was just, for me, it was like going to Candy shop. Every month I used to go and buy a different kind of pads and different brands, you know, like, um, So very much like a very exciting moment for me. I didn't have to tell anyone that I was in my period, you know, Like that kind of freedom I can go and cook and clean and do anything so I think it was such a liberation for me to, to come to different country and without any restriction.
You can be boys in here if you wanted to, you know, like, um, Can I ask a question? When did you, do you remember any moments when you heard, uh, people in the UK speaking about being on their period or, or any moments where you realized that it wasn't necessarily seen as such a shameful thing. I never hurt people.
And this is, I think [00:12:00] something that I've observed over the time is like in here, in the UK, we don't talk about toilet issues and periods or anything like that. It's very much hidden in a way. Whereas in Nepal, it's very visible. If you see somebody being segregated, you know that they're on their period.
If they don't come to a wedding, they're on their period. If you saw like cloth rag being hang outside in the sun, you know that they're on their period. Whereas here, it's like, you don't know until unless somebody tells you or somebody asks you. Ah, so it's the opposite. Okay. And then I, and then I think over the year I started seeing this more and more culture of like hiding pads and tampons up their sleeve even to go to change and even in the bin though there's instruction of like how to wrap your pad, used pad.
You're so right. So that it's not been seen. And it's not so much like hidden kind of thing. And I think one of the reasons is like, the more we hide, the more we don't talk about things, people will [00:13:00] suffer in silence. Right. And I think that is the thing that we are seeing now is like, if you don't talk about the fact that you have got heavy bleeding or endometriosis or PCOS, you don't know the person next to you is actually going through the same and actually might have some help or solution or like going through the same kind of thing so that it feels very relatable.
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, cultural observation. So How did you end up then coming up with the ideas of starting the company? 2016. I started going back to university 20. Yes. 2016. I actually graduated at that time. I did environmental science through open university and that completely changed my life. I became like a.
like avid fan of David Attenborough. I actually got to meet him and I felt like I met a God, you know, like it was just an incredible moment for me. And, uh, and then I just said like, okay, I'm going to dedicate my life to environmentalism and anything that I do. It's going to make a significant impact in the world.
So I started teaching kids about food waste and started making my [00:14:00] own consultancy, um, teaching kids about like why food waste is bad for the environment and for health and for money and all this kind of thing. Um, Sainsbury's funded that project for me. And now that was like my first time, you know, like you, you present 600 words application and they go like, Hey, here's the first 36, 000 to run this project.
And I was mind blown. Jesus. That's amazing. I really struggled with finding jobs here in the UK prior to, prior to the Sainsbury's funded project. I did pretty much everything under the sun, you know, like I, I did housekeeping, babysitting, cooking, kitchen, you know, like I used to go around different places in Wanner's and, um, Hammersmith, the Disney to serve like a beer sandwich lady, lady and all this kind of thing, you know, like I clean toilets in 2012 Olympics, you know, like, it was just like one of those moments that I had to do everything as an immigrant would do, you know, to get to [00:15:00] where I am.
And For me, that 36, 000 pounds was like, Oh my God, like the best thing in the world. And I delivered the project. I think we started going to nearly 16 school, um, at that time in one year frame and basically just opened the door for me to go and talk about sustainability in different school. So quite a lot of like, then.
charities started coming to me and saying like, Hey, would you like to run a project, uh, similar kind of project and sustainability, um, in periods. And at that time I was volunteering for women's environmental network. And I said like, Oh, I'll do the pilot project for you guys. And I'll, I'll tell you what the kids think about it.
project. Literally, I was so shocked that everybody was terrified to touch a menstrual cup. They were terrified to touch the reusable pad because they all thought it was, it just looked like a granny, like a handmade rag by grandmother or something like that, compared to a very shiny packet of pads and tampons.
[00:16:00] Right. So for them, very much the, The motivation was the aesthetic and the look and feel of how the product is. So on the way back home, I thought like, okay, there is definitely not a nice looking reusable product. Um, so ended up getting a second and sewing machine, went to YouTube, um, learn how to thread the sewing machine.
And you're amazing. It was just such a. On the moment kind of thing. Like I had to do it. Otherwise I would never know that how it would feel. So did you know what you were about to do? Like when, when you said, okay, I've got to get the sewing machine. Did you know you were going to make something with, to do with pants?
I knew that whatever I did when I was growing up of like sandwiching that pad between the pad was the thing that I wanted to do. Okay. Okay. That was the idea. That was the idea. So because I was telling the girls, my story about like reusing the rags and, um, All this kind of thing. And, and when [00:17:00] Hyman, I did, I, I just took my two same pair of hands, cut the side out.
wedged my husband's cotton t shirt inside it and then restitched it. So I was size eight at that time. By the time I stitched it, it was size six and I'm a three or four of them. And I actually, every period I used to wear a size smaller than my pair of pants, like blood cutting kind of thing, you know, like underwear, but I wanted to see how it feels.
Yeah. And the best thing was like, every time I put the pants on, it was just this. revelation of like, I actually don't have to wedge anything in between my leg. There's nothing in between that like, you know, like, it's just like wearing a pair of underwear. That's amazing. And it was that feeling that was like, Oh my God, it actually is such a liberating moment.
Um, Yeah. And then that was the birth of it. Then I took it to my husband and I said like, okay, I think I've got something here. And, you know, at that time I was doing, my husband's quite, um, very lean guy. He used to run this [00:18:00] hackathon and all this kind of thing. And now and then he used to take me on the weekend to see how the hackathons are run.
And I took part in one of them as well. So I had that very, very Much like lean startup mindset, you know, like, of like, if you want to do something, do a prototype, test it, learn it, iterated, those kinds of things. Um, so yeah, very much with that mindset, four months into finding the absorbent fabric, finding the leak proof fabric and leak proof fabric are like very much the same as the.
The one that you use in umbrella, you know, like literally like nothing different. Um, over the years we iterated and found a better fabric and all this kind of thing, but it's like that kind of science behind the fabric, um, and absorbent fabric. We found this, um, I think the most absorbing fabric in the world, it is using like undersea cabling.
So when, whenever the cable are like put through the pipe, they are wrapped in this fabric. So if there's any like leak is or any kind of thing, the fabric absorbs the water and does not let it [00:19:00] through, go through the circuit kind of thing. Yeah. God, how did you find that? How did you find that? That was the most leak proof fabric.
So, Oh my God, it's like such a, Oh, started reaching out to every fabric company. And then I said like, Oh, can you send me some like, Test the fabric halfway and then they would only send you like little tiny swatches of fabric, right? So, um, and then this, this fabric manufacturer based in Grimsby. So I actually called them and I said, like, look, I need, I need to make a couple of underwear.
You know, it literally means that you can start advertising that fabric for something else as well. So it was like very much convincing sales kind of interesting. Um, so they gave me the end bit of that, the role of whatever the fabric that they were making. Um, And it worked and it worked like magic. I watched it for them.
It was like a test as well. You know, like somebody was giving them a free prototype test kind of thing. Uh, and then they go like, yeah, we can do it. And then go like, okay, first production comes and then they go like, oh, well the [00:20:00] minimum order amount that you can. Yeah. And like he was, I think 11 kilometers.
Oh, hilarious. Okay. Not hilarious at the time, but I'm just imagining 11 kilometers of, of a role. Okay. Yeah. That that's actually that fabric and we, we had to buy it, you know, at that time. And that lasted us two and a half years of period underwear. Oh my God. It was that much because you are just using in the gusset area, right?
Yeah. So you can make hundreds and thousands of it. So, so you found the material and then. You must have found a, let's, let's, let's pause there on that because we're going to come back to that. Give us, give us a jump forward to, to today, right? How many different ranges do you have? You're mainly DTC, right?
Uh, you know, what, what does it, what does the business look like today when we've just talked about what the initial. You know, you [00:21:00] find the material, you knew what you were going to make. Let's what does it look like today? So the business is very much DTC brand. We are 82 percent DTC, 18 percent B2B. We do have presence in stores like Boots, Superdrug, Morrison's.
ocado. Um, some in France as well. We are in this retailer called Lehan. Um, and, and we are speaking to quite a few of the big retailer chain in here in the UK as well. And like, like the likes of Tesco's and Can I just say, if any Tesco or Asda or Sainsbury's buyers are listening to this, or anybody, right, as a mum, Okay.
I have got, as I've got a mom of three kids, I have got four different people in the house, including myself to buy absorbency products for. Some of those absorbency products are for wee, some of them are for periods, some of them are just for everyday wear. And I would like to be able to go to an aisle, one category that has, absorbency and it isn't necessarily, you know, and I would like to be able [00:22:00] to wear absorbency wear.
I would like to have pants for my four year old that. at school that she can be happy wearing. Uh, you know, I just think that whole category setup is so archaic. You know, you've got nappies one end and you've got like old people's knicker, old people's whatever, there should be clothes, there should be everything.
It needs an entire rethink, uh, to all those buyers out there. So start with Ruby. It's, it, yes, it's boring aisle. You, you walk in and I think some of the retailers were saying that people spent. Three seconds in that aisle. They literally go pick it up. It's nothing interactive. There's no education. There's no variation.
It's just boring. But you sell, you sell clothing now as well, right? We do. We do. So thongs and that none of that stuff is boring. So 2020 we became the first period underwear to go into supermarkets. Right. And that was in Sainsbury's and And then what they would [00:23:00] do is they would not take more than two sizes or three sizes max.
Sure. So if you are either SM or L, you get your underwear. If you are anything over the, under the line, you don't get it. Right. And that was such a pain point for us. We are such an inclusive brand. We do from start to finish. Two extra small, all the way to six extra large. And people used to write to me, like personally, like, Oh, terrible brand.
You don't stock for me. And I was like, no, no, no, we do like, we have got in online. It's just like in the retail space, we don't have it. So I literally took that problem, went back to drawing room and I was like, We have to solve this problem. And so three years ago, we launched this WCA called WCA Flex and WCA Stretch.
They are patent pending. One is patent approved. One is patent pending, but they are like initially like a multi size underwear. So one pair of underwear fits four body sizes. That means you can literally have that same two skew space, but it covers It's almost 95 percent of the people's body size are incredible.
So for me, [00:24:00] that was like actually solving the problem. So, you know, when we talk about like, how can brand disrupt kind of way, making a product like a light, maybe sustainable is just not enough. You have to invent and innovate, um, and then work with the retailer. I think so. And this is a great example.
Actually, we must use this example in, in, in all of the courses that I work on. But for anyone listening, who's kind of starting out in their career. Uh, there's one thing having a consumer insight that you then base your innovation on, and you saw the need to consumer needs. But what Ruby is just illustrated beautifully here is solving for a customer needs.
The customer only had a certain number of spaces on shelf, a footprint that they could risk, you know, giving to a startup and Ruby has gone and innovated to solve the customer, the trade customers need while still, And probably also, um, solving for the consumer need. It's just an amazing example of, um, a customer insight and a customer need self as well.
So incredible. I mean, our customer satisfaction has gone off the roof at the moment, you know, like, [00:25:00] because people buy their underwear, they fit it for the first time, you know, your kids are growing and the boys are constantly changing. You can actually buy a pair of underwear before they start the period and actually know that they will fit.
Yeah. But also different times of the month. You know, different times of the month on how much food you've eaten, um, what your hormones are like, you know, your clothing feels different, right? Okay. So, but the business is 82 percent DTC. So what's that side of the talk to us about that main side of the business and how you, how you grew it.
So I suppose it's probably like my brain goes all over the place. Sorry sometimes, but you got your, you got the actual product, right? How did you start selling it then? Okay. This is a, I think something that I've learned over. Over so many years. It's like when you launch a product, don't go into making too many variation in the very beginning.
Okay. Stick to one product, get it right. Get that confidence from the customer. And that's what we did. Like, you know, when we launched our first week, I literally did not have any other product other than [00:26:00] one pair of underwear, one pair, uh, one style, one color. But that, uh, Had a various range of sizes and things.
And we stuck to that for a year. So did you know that that was the right thing to do because you're, you're clever or instinctively, or what, what rule were you following there? Because I know so many founders I work with, they're like, no, but we've got to, we've got to have, you know, different flavors, different sizes, different this, different that.
And how did you know that that was right for you? For me, it was cashflow at that time, didn't have much money. So literally we raised 7, 000 pounds on Kickstarter. And at that time, genuinely, I felt like I got 7 million. I'm like, how did this people who don't know me trusted me with like such amount of money, you know, like, So for me, it was less like when you have got a limited budget and you're thinking of bringing a product into the market, be lean, do, do one thing, one thing good, and then see whether people will come back again for the same thing or not.
And, and that was very much like. [00:27:00] And then I still till today, I always say like, just be lean. And, you know, since we started launching stretch, we actually started cutting down all of the size and style of our, all of our range. And now we are just trying to do it in stretch because it's less inventory, right?
Less, uh, less stock, less managing, less fulfilling, and all this kind of thing. So also you get better prices, you know, because you're making less amount of, but in like a higher volume. That's amazing. Is this like Wooka 2. 0? Absolutely. That is so cool. So you might put everything, all of your current range into stretch, into the stretch.
And that's what, and so that range, would that range then have pants and your thongs and your shorts? What else would it have? Maybe leggings, cycling shorts. Yeah. So we're thinking about maybe, um, squats. Squats. Brilliant. Yeah. We, we are, so our customer are the mums and teens. They're like, they are the core customer and heart and soul of everything.
[00:28:00] Moms, most of the time when they go pass through having baby, that first period often is quite heavy. People don't want to use tampons. That is the moment of switch, right? And you need to think about like, whenever you bring a new product into the market and you think about like, why, why do people really want to come to you?
Or why do they care about you? And they're like few moments, especially for us. It's like most of the people that come to us have got heavy flow. They, they try different products, nothing works for them. So they're in the hunt and for alternative to what works for them. So they come, they stick to us. The changing and next phase of changing moment is like for moms who just had the babies, who don't want to use the horrible nappies in the hospital, but also like going forward, just want to have a comfortable life.
Um, that's the switch point and moms with teens. Who wants to give a better life to the daughter than what they had, right? Every parent wants that. So for us, like that is a switch moment. And if we get that team very early in the, in the [00:29:00] years, like pretty much you are, they are a long life customer, right?
Because then it becomes a natural thing. Um, habit change is like the hardest part. And I think that first, Three years of the whole journey of the business was like, you're bringing a new product, educating about the new product, new category, while asking people to change habit that has been stuck with them for like 20, 30 years of their life.
Right. So, um, it's, it's a tough not to crack, honestly, as a mom of a reception kid. I think there's a real opportunity. And I mean, you know, maybe it's not for Wicca because I know that you have to stay focused, but as a mom with a girl in reception, well, she's actually your one now, but you know, little, little leaks do happen because kids are too busy.
They're playing. They don't want to go to the toilet. Little boys are even worse, aren't they? But they don't want to go to the toilet, but then they get that little spot on the front of their trousers leggings. And, you know, I think me as a mom sending my little ones into school, If I knew that I had, I would feel like I'm shielding them from that wetness or the [00:30:00] kind of the, you know, little, like little kids, they get really sore because they're not wiping properly and all that kind of stuff.
So that whole kind of reception, you're one, I think there's a big thing there for clothing, um, underneath, you know, like a skort for example, or, um, little pants, fab, um, talk to me about, so obviously you've obviously done a lot of work on understanding your core consumer and the, the. The easiest time to talk to them and engage them and show them the product and engage them and make them consider it.
Um, how do you deal with the fact that it's obviously the initial outlay in terms of price is more, how much do the products cost and, and how do you explain to people? Cause that's quite an education. Cause if I've only got three pounds in my pocket, I'm going to buy some tampax rather than shell out.
How much would I be paying for a pair of your Walker 2. 0. So the WCA 2. 0 starts at 15 pounds, right. Um, 15 pounds all the way to 18 pounds. Um, but we have got some, some of the ranges, like we have [00:31:00] got this basic range that starts at 12 pounds. Um, and then, you know, again, in the very beginning, when I started every underwear was 30 pounds a pair, but the economy of scale, which means that as we grow, we managed to make the cost lower and lower and lower.
In fact, like we actually campaigned to get the VAT removed on the period underwear. I'm sorry. I heard that this morning. I'm absolutely disgusted to hear that. So tell everyone who's listening. So government basically thought in 2021, they removed the VAT on pads and tampons made it 0%, but they deemed, period underwear as a clothing item, put a 20 percent tax to it.
So since 2021, we have been, I think I wrote, maybe did six campaign, met three prime minister can imagine. Um, and, um, I didn't met so many MPs and we're trying to convince like, look, these are period product and they should be deemed as a period product. So please, can [00:32:00] you categorize in the right category more than anything else so that it gets removed.
So after fighting for so many years, Last year, we managed to get it removed. So beginning of this year, there's no VAT on period underwear, which means thank you. Thank you. I mean, that was like, uh, such a great win and great win for women, you know, all around the world, people who are period like massive.
Yeah. So, and we said like the VAT gets removed. We will take the VAT off and sell the underwear in the same price. And that's what we have done. And so compared to last year, this year is 20 percent cheaper, especially in this current environment where shopping is, you know, 50 percent more expensive than it was each week.
So if I, um, someone at that stage of life, you're targeting me. So imagine I'm someone with heavy flow. I've just had a baby and it's, you know, that it's the right time to target me. Or no, let's think, talk about a teen who, you know, is, is, is, maybe doesn't have the same amount of money or parents don't have a lot of money these days.
Do you have to convince them with the whole price thing? Or do [00:33:00] people just get it? Do they automatically make that cut that calculation in their heads and say, well, that's going to save me money in the long term. It's a quite a big outlay and we totally understand, you know, it's like, um, I always give this analogy of like, it's like going to waxing every six weeks versus like getting an IPL later hair removal.
It's like the price difference is quite high, right? Like, but once you're done, it's like done. Um, so we, we do sometimes convince people through pricing. Uh, but I think the most important thing is like, you can sleep on them without having to worry about leaks. And those are the moments for quite a lot of us.
where we have so much fear of leaking. And I think we need to catch in that moment. You know, our, our sale goes like quite high on the, on the morning time. I think most of the people like we haven't bought it as like, they will wake up and they're like, Oh, bloody shit. And you watch the, but yeah, it looks so you see the sales in [00:34:00] the morning.
That's incredible. So, so the answer, the answer really is that because this is such a, a difficult issue for people that they go through every month, actually, as long as you message and engage them on the, on the messaging that really matters to them, then pricing isn't that much of a problem. It's a very personal thing, right?
So, so we, on a day to day basis, we have got this Variety of persona. And we actually go targeting those persona till in their stories. How do we solve the problem for that person? Who's got heavy flow, who's going through endometriosis, who's got PCOS, you know, like what do they want to hear and what do they want it to be resolved?
And I think very much go, go that way. And it's, it's a very customer centric. Anything that we do starts with why, why, why, why does our persona feels that. That's amazing. And how big is your DTC marketing and sales team, your success team? Six, six people. Yeah, it's [00:35:00] not. So we do fulfillment ourselves. So we have got a 10, 000 square foot warehouse.
We've got five people in the packing team and then rest all is like upstairs with marketing and yeah, we've got one person in wholesale. So you can see like the amount of energy you put in money, you put an invest in it. Like that's how it's going to be. So the marketing team is big, but the deep B2B is like quite small.
It's incredible. Um, and I suppose, you know, that's a fabulous strategy, isn't it? Right? Because you're getting, getting out to the people who really are going to become your super fans. And, you know, the time will come to, to, um, grow through retail. So what are your plans going forward then? To scale, I think we've now nailed with WCA 2.
0 that we've got the great product market fit right to go into retail and I think this is what we want to do is like, how do we get into those 80 percent who still shop their favorite product with grocers, be in the eyes of the grocers? Um, so very [00:36:00] much like focusing on like, can we, can we, nail, the B2B side of things can be in Asda and Sainsbury's and Tesco everywhere.
Um, and, and be exactly where there are pads and tampons currently that's available from that tiny little mini store, you know, the local store to like a super extra. Like giant store kind of way. So very much we sit in there and I feel like just with the two product, you know, you fit so many sizes, so it's incredible making, I think, yeah, four times, um, better sell through rate than, you know, like what you would do with the size sized product.
So I think we are in a good position. I listened to, um, a podcast this morning where you said that, you know, sometimes you worry, and I know that lots of founders do. God, you know, are we getting too big? This wasn't necessarily what we were starting out to, to do. How big do you want to get? You know, how big can you imagine this being?
And also, um, there are other products on the market now, you know, other period pads. Somebody sent me something from the Netherlands recently. [00:37:00] How do they compare to yours? And is it becoming a really competitive marketplace or are you so different with your patent pending products that, you know, Your products are just going to win for a tiny category, you know, compared to like pads, like period underwear is a very small category.
I mean, you're looking at maybe less than a percentage of all of the period product is like the period underwear for a tiny category. It really quickly saw the momentum, quite a lot of retailer came on board. You know, you've got the MNS and the Primark's who came quite early on because for them, it was like almost a sustainability tick box kind of way.
You know, like we'll have a product that has a sustainable agenda. Even just selling the product has got sustainable. They're private label versions, aren't they? They are private label. And are they, do they perform? Do they, are they good products? They do for life flow people and stuff, right? But the quality, yeah.
Um, quality varies from different brands, obviously, you know, for any product, the cheaper you buy, the lower quality you get [00:38:00] to this kind of thing. And, um, And I think that is our, our main USP at the moment is this multi size, you know, it's patent approved kind of way we have the power to go and scale, we can be in vending machine, we can be in airport, we can be in anywhere, you know, like in every offices where if the office says like, actually, you know, we want to put a vending machine with period underwear, you can fit those two sizes and pretty much it covers everyone in it, right?
So. I think that really is like a unique position to be in and brand value. You know, we, we stand for something we, we have always done. And right now we are campaigning to remove the VAT on period swimwear and sportswear, which they have still kept it. And it's just one of those annoying things. So I think.
You need to stand for something. And for us is like, how can we champion women, people who are periods in, in every stages of their life, you know, from first period to last period and beyond kind of way. So for us, it's like, I don't think [00:39:00] we have gone deep enough. I think we can still go deep enough to, to infiltrate more with the brand.
And also, again, this is because we are a bootstrap brand, you know, like, Every month's profit actually goes into hiring next person or adding into marketing and all this kind of thing. So very much like hunter gatherers mindset still. So, and you use as many recycled products as you can, can't you? Don't you?
Oh, gosh. Yes. Yes, we do. We do. That is something that we highly focus on is like, we are B Corp, you know, we are, um, carbon neutral brands. So for us, like the quality of the product is not enough. It has to have like higher sustainable values and, um, And we have reason why we exist. And do you have any, um, corporate social initiatives with any charities or, um, you know, what, what kind of things do you do on that side?
So whenever we have promotion, often the promotion has a purpose attached to [00:40:00] it. And that promotion can be, Um, giving a discount to the customer, but also doing something else with, uh, uh, charities and things. So we closely work with hygiene bank, um, choose love here in the UK. Um, we've got days for girls in Nepal where we send some underwear in there.
We especially work with like blind girls community in Nepal because I think they find it the most difficult in managing the period. So, so, and we do school programs here in the UK. So we have got, I think just. over 300 schools signed up and we send them samples because at the moment, you know, like most of the school only have pads and tampons to show you to the girls when they're like, just at that puberty kind of lesson.
And we were like, that's so biased, you know, like, I'm sure like we need to show more choices. So. Um, that's one of the initiatives that we are doing at the moment. So any school listening, any teacher, anybody listening, you know, like you can just, uh, drop a line to us and we'll send a [00:41:00] education pack to your school.
You know, I think the government should do what Norway does when, um, somebody has a baby, they send a, a box, a cardboard box full of goodies for every single person who has a baby gets this box, um, with, you know, nappies and blankets and products and information, you know, every kid going into year five or year six should be given, should be sent a, a multi size pair of pants, period pants.
Um, and we, we do work with quite a lot of, um, so Wales in particular is like very good and Wales and Scotland, I would say more than England. Um, and then they really have this, uh, incredible intensive, um, period dignity program where in Scotland, you know, Yes. In Swaziland, you know, that all the period products are free.
Um, but in Wales, they are quite selective of only sustainable period product. So they would not take any single use disposable, but even if they took it, it has to be organic. So I funnily, I met this woman in, in Paris, we were doing this [00:42:00] content in under the Eiffel tower. And we were talking to some girls about period products.
periods in general. And then she goes like, I heard you talk about period. Can I come and tell you my story? And then I was like, yeah, sure. Uh, and then she goes like, well, I found my first period underwear in, in a library in Caffeeley council to whom we supply libraries and all this kind of thing. And she literally picked up a pair of free period underwear in there.
It's like, what a, um, Coincidentally, to find somebody from Wales in Paris, just when you were doing that, but that shows the impact you're having. It's, it's, it's absolutely brilliant Ruby. And I've just, you know, I really highly recommend that anyone listening to this goes to your website and the amount of different needs states that you, um, you know, I've got period adults, period girls and teens, swimwear, menopause, incontinence, and under each one, you've got super heavy, heavy, medium light, all the briefs, the boxer shorts, the, the, the.
you know, the swimwear, the highways, the savings. It's an [00:43:00] incredible website. Um, from a DTC perspective, it really draws me in and it's so obvious what, how to, you know, what I need to buy. Um, I'm not searching around for ages, you know, save at seven packs, save a five packs, save a three packs. It's really fab.
You've obviously got a great, a great e comps team. We definitely want people to have the best first experience with period underwear, and then the best first experience you're going to get is with three pair of underwear. So you have one to wear, one to wash, one next day, you know, kind of way. Because one underwear is not enough.
You wear once and then you're like, well, what I'm going to do next kind of way. So for us, this, this packs really helps. And I think people really understand why we are doing this as well. Um, and yeah. Because honestly, we do 40 day custom satisfaction guarantee, you know, like if you are not happy with it, just send it back to us.
I'm so confident. That's amazing. And I love that. That's two insights here. Uh, everyone is listening. You know, the first one is one to where one, two, what did you say? One to wear, one to wash, one for next day. There we go. One to wear, one to [00:44:00] wash, one for next day. I mean, that is consumer insight in a nutshell.
And as a result of that need, you put three in a pack. We're not just putting three in a pack for the sake of it. We're putting three in a pack because this is what you need. And we know you need this because we are that person. It's incredible. And then the other one, um, what did you say the next, the next bit was?
Oh, is this? I can't remember either. I can't remember either. It doesn't matter. But it honestly, you know, for someone who's come over to a different country, you know, and had to start out doing all, you're just an incredible mind, incredible business mind. You're doing such great things to change. I love that period dignity.
I think that's just wonderful. Um, and, and the whole of the UK and Ireland and all of the countries in Europe should, uh, adopt that. You know what, I literally saw in the news, I think just on Friday, actually Ireland is also offering pre breeder product. That's great. So it's fantastic. Hopefully we'll get to, we'll get in [00:45:00] Ireland through, through public sector as well.
Well, lots of my friends back home. Um, I'm still my, I've got a gang of girls here where I live, but a gang of girls, guys back in, in, in Ireland still. all of their kids are older than mine and they're all big WUCA fans. So obviously your marketing is working in Ireland as well. Ruby, it's been absolutely brilliant to have you on.
One last question. In five years time, do you have a vision for how big WUCA will be and what impact you might have made? I think in five years time, my dream would be like to at least be 50 million revenue business. Great. And you know, I say this, the product does such a great impact on the social levels, the equality levels and all this kind of thing.
But I think there are so few women who see women in business and I really want, I want it to be an e commerce business and commercially driven and all this [00:46:00] kind of thing, just so that more young people see more women in business and feel like they can actually do it. And, you know, and you don't need so much money to, to get your idea and business gets started, you know, like focus and determination.
And you can bootstrap to raise and raise and raise and raise and raise. Exactly. And then, you know, dream, dream, dream, ultimate dream is, There should be no girl like me, you know, who have to make shifts any more pads, you know, like it should be accessible and affordable to anyone everywhere in the world.
You know, the shoes, um, um, is it Tom's Tom's and, you know, make, buy one and we, and we give one. I mean, is that ever a model that you've considered? I'm sure in brainstorming sessions, you've considered that many times, right? It comes in all this kind of thing. And I think in the, in the very early days we were like, okay, well distribution is always going to be a problem.
Right. Um, so I think with the WCAG 2. 0, that actually might be a very easily solvable thing because. [00:47:00] you know, when you, when you send the underwear to any countries and developing countries, you need to know people's sizes and all this kind of thing. So I think this kind of solves it. We haven't thought about it yet.
I think we might need to prove ourself first by being in. every retailer and, and then build a model around it. Cause I was just thinking when you said to me, when you said to me that, you know, with different promotions, you support different charities. I would love, I, as a consumer, I'd love to have one big thing to hang my, uh, an anchor in my brain.
Oh yeah, Wuka. That's the, it's, it's the, it's the Tom's of, of period care. You know, if I buy that for my daughter, I know that a girl in Nepal. Is getting a pair and they're not just getting thrown in landfill there like a girl in Nepal is getting a pair or a girl in India is getting a pair of the same age.
I mean, that makes me feel as a mom just like wow, you know, and it's just one big idea and you're so perfectly placed to Be the people who stand up and [00:48:00] shout for that. And now you said, it doesn't go in landfill, right? It stays with you for another two, three years, five years to come. But I think it's one of those things, isn't it?
That you think, okay, if I'm giving money to charity, you know, how do I know that the money is actually getting, all of the money is actually getting to charitable cause? I'd also want to know from the kind of the blockchain of The gift that you guys had, a bit like with Tony's Chocoloanly, um, that you guys had the supply chain to get the pants to the people rather than them ending up in the warehouse somewhere.
And it just is like, yeah, we give that we give the pants, but actually some partner somewhere just doesn't do it. Um, and because you're from there and you, I dunno, I just think that would be really cool. Really beautiful. Something to think and maybe put it on the, maybe pipeline of the map. Maybe, you know, when we hit this, that's our goal.
I mean, totally agree. You know, like it's, as I said, like the rarely product gets born that has got such a great purpose in life, right? Like [00:49:00] from, from health, from environmental, from sustainability kind of way, I genuinely feel so blessed to be in that position that I actually can proudly say, you know, like I've created a product that actually.
creates that this social equity in the world. Absolutely. And that's why I said to you before we started recording, I, that I, you know, Ruby, I said, like, help me with this because I've never felt so uncomfortable about talking about the commercial side of things, because actually what you're doing is creating this impact and, and, you know, uh, giving people the opportunity to, that there isn't less inequality around the world.
period, periods and period dignity. And you were like, well, yeah, well, we are an econ business and that's the reality of it. And the more we grow, the more we're going to be able to make that impact. So that helped me. Um, one of the things I'm just thinking actually is maybe the pitch to all the retailers is look, here are the numbers.
If we can get all four of you, if all four of you come on board, then we'll have enough gross margin because our cost of goods will be so low that we'll be [00:50:00] able to give one, buy one, give one and a whole, you know, kind of. petition to everybody in the UK, lobby your retailers to get us in because if we have this amount of, of, of products that we can order, this amount of products, then we'll be able to do buy one, give one.
And it'll be the UK women who have made it happen by getting you listed in the retailers. That's such a great thing. I think, I think it's a, it's a nice way to bring women together. Yeah. I think so. Good idea. Good idea. Can we catch up separately after the show? Yes. I'm, I really want to stay in touch and help you in any way.
Yeah, absolutely. Love to. I would love to love to love to, because now we are starting to do more retail and stuff. You know, we are, we are a degrowth brand, right? For many people. We are, we are shrinking this. Size of the capital that are currently invested in. So in a way. Nobody wants to do period [00:51:00] underwear because especially like the likes of PNG and body form and all the STT and all this kind of thing, because for them it's like shrinking their own capital kind of like money coming in.
So it's, it's such a tricky kind of position for us as well. Like, you know, once you get a customer for, um, with five or seven pair of underwear, they don't come for two years because they don't have to come for two years. Right. Like, so it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, It's such a dilemma for like trying to be a decopper or a commercial kind of driven brand.
Um, but also know that actually you are just shrinking the whole thing. Um, decrypt. Almost every time you sell something, you're shrinking the market. Is that what you mean? Exactly. Yeah. But there's just so many different, I mean, you know, there's, uh, everybody in every family has a need for a different type of work at some stage of their life.
Yes, they do. They do. I mean, market is big. We haven't penetrated that much. Right. So it's just still in the surface. It's still very digital first kind of thing. We are not present [00:52:00] in like many retailers. So I would love to have a chat. And, you know, we are at the moment looking for funding and things as well.
Okay. Well, let's give a shout out to that. So you're looking for funding. What are you looking for? Who, you know, let's put that shout out there. Well, I think it would be impact driven brands. I would love impact driven fund, sorry, impact driven fund who would understand where are we coming from. And as I mentioned, you know, um, Just with the period underwear, we are very much like, uh, trying to, I think, do more, a purposeful brand, I would say.
Um, so yeah. Ruby, we've been on for nearly an hour. I know you have to go at 11. Thank you so much for your time. Uh, we're massive fans of Uka in our house and I will continue to spread the news amongst others. all of the mothers in my life, of which there are very many. Uh, you're such an inspirational human being.
Um, thank you. And you are such an, and honestly, like, I'm so glad that we, we spoke and we're still friends [00:53:00] and we are talking to each other. It's just incredible. Um, a kick ass, you know, survivor and like, Honestly, like hats off, but, um, well, hats off now cause I have my hair back. Yes, I know. I'm looking for, have you, have you chopped at all or?
Oh yeah, I keep chopping it. I keep chopping it because I tried to grow it out and it was just such a disaster because it grows in all different directions and it's some of it's curly, some of it's straight and it just was like hideous. So I just thought, okay, I'm just going to have to keep it short. Uh, so.
I'll keep it short. Yes. Yeah. It looks cool though. I look very cool. I'm getting to the age now, you know, I'm 48 now. And I think when you're 42, 45, when I set up this business, so. Brand growth heroes is I think five years old. I was still, I suppose, like youngish. And now it's funny. You get to 48 and especially when you've been through what I've been through in the last two years, you feel middle aged or you feel like you're more of a [00:54:00] middle aged person.
Well, I do, which is weird. I'm sure there's plenty of 48 year olds out there. But something's changed. I've been running any business for five years. running any business for five years, then you, after five years, you feel like, okay, I need to like slow down kind of way. And I felt that, you know, like we are in sixth year, seventh year.
And I'm like, I just feel like, Oh, this is so exhausting kind of way. And you have that moment and it's, it's okay to take a rest. I think so. And now, and then I have got this advisor and I just feel like, I just want to cry today and I just don't want to do anything. No, it's, it's one of those things. I think you give so much energy in that first five year into any starting any business.
It's just, and you went through the, the mail. The exciting thing is I've come out the other side with the 2. 0, which is the brand growth here as many MBA powered by Elantra, which is going to be running again. January, February to March or April. Um, and we're going to have some really exciting new partners for that program.
Um, yeah, [00:55:00] so Alantra has got a very good reputation.
Joanna was talking about it as well. And I think we are part of the you should join that as well. They won't let me join. Okay. I haven't built, I haven't built anything physical, even though my course, you could say my course is physical, you know, it's physical courses and there's lots and lots of PDFs and lots and lots of videos.
Please ask her because I really want to be part of your community. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I think, I think it would bring such a great value. And also like you are FNB, right? Pretty much every brand in there is like f and b brand kind of thing. Yeah. So it makes sense for you to actually come in and they should have you as a mentor?
I think so it's like, just for like the whole I'd love to, overall I'D for all of the business. Okay. And also it's, but I'll, I'll you not just f and b also home care and anything that's in a package basically, because I've done a lots of, you know, cleaning products and pet food and, uh, we've done Yeah.
Children's cutlery and we've, we've done. [00:56:00] We've done lots of things, anything that you can sell DTC or in retail in a pack, that's what we do. Okay. Funding comes in, maybe help us get into retail. I'll come to you. Absolutely. But I don't think you'll need any help. I don't think you'll need any help. I do. I do.
No, but like you've got like such a Credit credibility. Right. And I think sometimes you have to take like people who have the tools under their belt and into the room marching and just like showcasing what you've got. Yeah. I think, I think where I come in is I can sit down and help you give, give you the confidence that you have it all there and help you reorganize or re, but I'm not saying you a person reorganize, rearrange and put it all into a nice package.
You know, you guys, the beauty of it is you guys, you amazing founders have it all. Sometimes you just need a bit like a coach, someone to sit down with and put it in the right place, like a jigsaw puzzle, and then have the confidence being told by someone who's been there. Uh, no, that's, that's, that's, that's perfect.
That's all you need now. [00:57:00] You don't need anything else. You know, I think like Joanna mentioned, like we just don't have that enough information and confidence to go out with kind of way with, um, Like, you know, we don't know, I think the market share, we don't have the data. You don't need to know any of that.
This holds everybody back. So this is a conversation for another day, but like, don't let that hold you back. First of all, if DTC, focusing on growing DTC is the right thing to do, then that's what you should be doing. And you're doing the right thing. However, if getting into retail was also the right thing to do, right?
With very specific customers, which you've already done. with very specific customers in a very specific way, in a controlled way. And that, that wasn't going to take away from your DTC focus. Then don't let what you don't have pull you, hold you back because it is really easy to find out anything. And also you can ask the question, do we really need to know that?
Or do we not already have case studies with the retailers we're with, which you do. [00:58:00] So never let that hold you back. There's always a, my, my motto is there is always a way around everything. There's always a way around it. And just, yeah, do not be, do not let that hold you back. Okay. Let's do another catch up, uh, whenever you're around because I've got like.
Cause I think like, again, team and all those people, no problem. Yeah. That's the kind of thing. I think also in your circle, if anybody is looking for a role in sales and marketing, no, I'll swing them over. Okay. We're always recruiting. Are you? Yes. Yes. At the moment we are looking for like national account manager and things because we've got only one person in the wholesale.
She, I think she's stretched too thin. We definitely need a, either retail director or. Okay. I'm going to introduce you to someone amazing. Who can help you, who will be able to help you. Okay, Ruby. I am so happy to have caught up with you. You are doing such great things. Uh, honest. No, I have not done what you, I'm not doing [00:59:00] anything like what you're doing and you are amazing.
So I'm going to go now. Okay. Um, but I'm sending you a massive hug. All right. Thank you. A big hug as well.