Matt Teske of Chargeway

 Summary
In this episode, we speak with Matt Teske, the founder of Chargeway, about the new version of the Chargeway app (what we refer to as as Chargeway 2.0). We discuss how Chargeway simplifies EV charging and helps users understand the charging process. We also explore the challenges and opportunities in the EV charging ecosystem, including the integration of Chargeway with car infotainment systems and the collaboration with OEMs. The conversation highlights the importance of making EV charging hassle-free and the need for clear communication and education in the industry. We also touch on the topic of vehicle-to-grid technology and its potential impact on consumers. The conversation explores the challenges and opportunities in the electric vehicle (EV) industry, focusing on the role of utilities, charging infrastructure, and consumer education.

Takeaways

• Chargeway simplifies EV charging and helps users understand the charging process by using colors and numbers to represent plug types and power levels.
• The new version of the Chargeway app, Chargeway 2.0, offers additional features such as a charge time estimator and a trip planner.
• Chargeway is working with OEMs to integrate their software into car infotainment systems, making it easier for users to access charging information.
• The EV charging industry faces challenges in terms of communication, education, and standardization, which need to be addressed to make EV charging more accessible and user-friendly.
• Vehicle-to-grid technology presents opportunities for consumers, but there are still issues to be resolved, such as the cost and practicality of implementing the technology. Visibility into EV locations and V2X capability is crucial for utilities to manage the grid effectively.
• The transition from influence to control in managing EV charging requires a strong value proposition and trust from consumers.
• Solar and home batteries can offset a significant portion of the energy load and provide backup power during outages.
• Virtual power plants offer opportunities for grid optimization and load management.
• Consumer education and trust-building are essential for successful EV adoption and charging infrastructure development.

You can download the new version of the Chargeway app in either the Apple App or Android App stores.

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Creators & Guests

Host

Chase Drum

Host of Grid Connections and Founder of Bespoke EVs

Guest

Matt Teske

Chargeway Founder; Chargeway uses simple colors and numbers to identify every electric cars charging options. Available for iOS and Android.

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Good morning, Great Connections listeners
and welcome to 2024.

I'm really excited to kick off this year's
first episode with Matt Teske.

He's the founder of Chargeway.

And coincidentally for long-term
listeners, you may know Matt was actually

in the first episode of Great Connections
we've recorded.

So it's really an honor to have him on
again, and especially to talk with him

about the new version of Chargeway.

They're officially calling it 2.0 of the
app.

But we go through some of the new
functionality and how it makes it a lot

easier for even existing users of EVs that
want to road trip or just kind of learn

more about charging around them to really
explore and use a lot more functionality.

In addition, I think this is a great
episode for anyone who might be new to

charging or road tripping EVs and have
been kind of curious what other options

are out there to really try and make it as
hassle-free as possible and Chargeway has

always been a great example of.

what they're doing to really try and
streamline the process.

And it's a really fascinating company
because they're making really big inroads,

but they're also a very small and agile
team.

We talked to them about the new version
along with some of the current other

things that Chargeway does around even
offering in dealership beacons and other

educational material that even current
users might not be aware of.

And if you're in the auto OEM industry, I
definitely recommend.

reaching out to Chargeway to look at these
other ways to maybe educate your current

staff.

I think after we really talk about the new
and kind of fascinating parts of

Chargeway, we also got to talk just about
the larger EV charging ecosystem right now

and some of the pros and cons of what
we're seeing.

For those of you who are interested in
either trying out, learning more, or even

downloading the Chargeway app, you can
find all that information in today's show

notes.

So with that, I just want to say welcome
again to 2024 and please enjoy this

episode with Matt Teske of Chargeway.

Enjoy.

Thank you for having me chase.

Good to see you again.

Yeah.

Just in case people aren't familiar with
you or Chargeway or haven't heard the

previous episodes, can you just give a
real quick overview of what your team is

doing and how you're making a huge impact
in the EV space today?

Definitely.

Yeah.

Chargeway for those who aren't familiar
with what we do.

Chargeway is a software platform and
mobile app.

And we simplify EV charging and how to
understand how EV charging works.

And we focus on that by allowing you to
choose your EV inside of our mobile app,

for example, and then we do all the
thinking for you.

And then our UI is unique, our user
interface, and that it uses colors for

plug types and simple numbers for power
levels so that when you look at the map,

you know, that you can go to green
stations because your vehicle has a green

plug.

And then you will know the maximum charge
level of your vehicle is, let's say a

level six, and then you'll see fives and
sixes and sevens on the map.

You can use all those, you can use the
seven, but you'd only, you'd max out at

six because of your car.

It's a way to just super simplify how to
understand how charging works by sake of

can you connect and then how long will
your charge take?

So we've been, we initially introduced the
idea about, wow, six years ago now, it was

originally when we just, I walked around
with a laptop at a conference and said,

here's an idea.

And it turned into a software platform and
mobile app.

And just recently we launched version 2.0
of our software for the mobile app.

And

huge response has been great, because it's
not only a station finder, it's also a

trip planner.

And it's got a lot of other features that
I'm sure we can dive into.

But our goal and mission is to just take
all that engineering that is difficult to

navigate with EV charging and do a lot of
thinking for folks.

That's really what we want to accomplish.

So yeah, I think what's so great about
your approach in the platform is, I think

a lot of people listening, they're going
to know the difference between a kilowatt,

a kilowatt hour, the

difference between a LFP and an NMC
battery chemistry, all these different

things that I know our listeners kind of
nerd out and really enjoying what we like.

But at the end of the day, it's as much as
we like to think that the world revolves

around us, we're a small group of the
small section that is the automotive

industry.

And for most people, it's just one part
of, that they don't even think about of

their daily lives.

And that's what I love about what you're
doing and what you're so passionate about

is to really simplify this.

I've kind of even jokingly said, I don't
know if I ever tell you this, but I've

kind of jokingly said it's like, it's the
grandma EV app.

Like you just, it's so simple where you
can give it to, it makes, there's a lot of

people that love EVs because of all the
technology, but I do know quite a few

people that kind of like the simple
traditional car because, uh, right or

wrong through, uh, maybe bad marketing or
just, uh, lack of exposure from other

companies, it's kind of made EVs seem
like, okay, I'm buying a new appliance or

I've got to know all these things.

And what your software does on the app.

And I believe now with some of the
integrations to even kind of show up in

the car infotainment, it really does bring
it down to be like, it removes all the

hassle and really figure it does all the
hard work for you because.

Um, I think one of the other things too,
is I love taking road trips in my AV.

And I'm kind of a big enough nerd to
actually enjoy, okay, if I do this, I'll

be slightly more efficient if I avoid this
mountain pass.

And it's, there is kind of, I've talked to
a few other people in the

actually, John McElroy from auto line out
Detroit even said this.

He's like, you know, one of the things
that I find intriguing about EVs is it's

kind of like the Western frontier.

It's like, you're actually having to
figure out all this stuff now that we've

kind of taken for granted for the last 50
years.

And he's right, but it shouldn't be that
way for everyone.

If you want to see people actually, uh, be
able to have an EV as their only car.

So I think it's really exciting to have
you on.

a big part of the kind of the reason
you're on today is with the second version

launch of Chargeway that recently
happened.

So I think it would be great just to kind
of, as you've already kind of said, the

history just kind of announced some of
these big changes and what's really kicked

off 2.0 of Chargeway, Matt.

Yeah, well, the focus out of building the
new version of the app and the software

was really it was born out of learning and
talking to drivers as well as utilities,

auto dealers, other stakeholders about

what do they need and how do we have a
collective conversation that can be an

easy conversation for everybody?

And so what we wanted to focus on with
version 2.0 of the app was how do we take

features that people enjoy about what we
did in the first version of the app, but

make it even all the more so integrated
and automated?

And as an example, we often talk about how
can we educate people on power.

And we see tactics all the time of,

let's call this hyper, let's call this
ultra, let's call this super, let's call

this rapid, let's whatever.

And it doesn't help anybody understand it,
it just, it's marketing, right?

And so we have our level system, levels
one through seven, it clearly denotes that

there's differences and you can see that
visual on the map.

But we took it a step further in the
original app, we had a charge time

estimator, you could choose a power level,
set your battery level and get an

estimated charge time based on the power
level and based on what your car could do.

This was a separate feature before from
the station map.

We basically just integrated that feature
into the station map itself.

So now we have a dedicated vehicle detail
screen where you can adjust your battery

range and then everything that happens on
the map is then dynamic to your vehicle

settings.

So you can then click on power levels all
throughout the map and it will give you an

estimated charge time based on your
vehicle's capabilities, the station's

capabilities, taking into account charging
curve, all those little things that we

know are happening in the background but
we serve up what people want to know,

which is

If I'm driving this car and I pull up at
that station with X percent left, how long

do I gotta wait?

I mean, that's what average people want to
know.

And so we're focused on having a different
conversation than most people in the

industry.

Yeah.

I think, uh, I mean, even before we
started recording, you kind of mentioned

the experience you recently had in an auto
show where these people were looking at a

one brand of car, cause that's what they
knew.

And

They're like, okay, this will take so
long.

It'll be two charges.

And then you kind of had to be realistic
when it's like, well, have you looked at

this other brand where it essentially
makes it one stop and it's a much shorter

stop?

And I think that's what really helps.

Um, I mean, I'll even say I'm a pretty big
visual learner.

And I think your UI has done a really good
job of solving a lot of the issues.

I think there's other apps out there.

Obviously there's the plug shares of the
world that'll rate the charger.

Um, but your technology kind of

goes a little bit beyond that where it
even has the route planning functionality.

But I think as anyone who's listening to
this has probably unfortunately seen or

experienced, uh, you pull up, let's say it
electrify America.

I can't remember if it's the hyper, the
fast, the light speed charger, whatever

the 350 kilowatt one is.

And there's a Chevy bolt there and no
offense to Chevy bolt drivers, but those

things top out like 60 kilowatts.

And I have seen it myself.

You're being generous.

Yeah.

And there are, I know plenty of horror
stories where someone comes like, no, I

plug here because my, it charges faster.

And it's like, well, unfortunately that's
not exactly true.

They hear language like hyper or something
and they hear that's the faster one.

So if they don't know what they don't
know, they just grab it thinking it'll be

faster, not having any clue.

And so one of the things we actually built
into the new trip planner for Chargeway,

the updated version of it, is depending on
the vehicle you're driving, once we route

you to stations and suggest your stops,

if there are multiple power levels at that
location, we will suggest the optimized

power level for your vehicle to optimize
throughput at that station.

Because that way it's not about having a
discussion about hyper versus 150 or 350

kilowatt or what have you.

You just go, look, if there was a gigantic
green seven and a gigantic green six on

these chargers, and this thing is telling
me go to the six because my car is only

capable of charging up to level four, it
helps quickly educate on, oh, it doesn't

matter if I use six or seven.

It's the same Phillips speed.

It gets away from the, the fluffy
marketing of just saying something to say

something to make it sound great and
actually educates people.

And that's the one thing we really focused
on with the version two app was to say,

how do we make this truly customized to
each user, but also make it really smart.

And I will say, I mean, Chargeway now, in
my opinion, it is the most intuitive and,

and intelligent app you can use for EV
charging.

because we are doing so much of the math
behind the scenes for you to make it

simple.

And I think that was one of the best
compliments we received from someone, as

they said, it seems, just looking at it,
seems so easy and so simple, but because I

know how much complicated technology and
engineering is, and math is going on, that

means you were able to make it this simple
because you understand the engineering.

And I said, yeah, that's a very good
compliment.

I appreciate that.

So, I mean, and this was coming from
someone who's an early adopter who said,

you know, I'm skeptical of everything that
doesn't give me

at all the data right up front.

But you guys are managing it really well.

So I think we'll have more and more of
those moments now that we have, as far as

I'm concerned, was just a more elegant
modern interface in the product.

And it's just really well polished.

And so far the feedback has been
phenomenal.

Yeah, that's great to hear.

And I mean, I've even seen some of the
feedback just randomly on Twitter and

other places where people have been kind
of leaving those responses that they've

been happy with this new software update.

But I think while

saying it's 2.0 is a big step and there's
obviously a lot going on in the back end.

There's it's been a fascinating just to me
as someone who's going to follow

Charredway for so long to see all of the
additions that your company has added.

Because obviously it started as an app and
then it was like, okay.

And when it started as an app, there were
far fewer cars.

So it's like, okay, you've got the Tesla
UI and then there's like two other cars

that you have to figure this out for.

So this helps us to other cars.

But obviously that's drastically changed.

And even as a Tesla driver, it's kind of
fun to use and play around with it to just

look at other options when you're, believe
it or not, in areas where there aren't as

many superchargers.

Having said that now, we look at where
Chargeway started, where it's going.

I think it'd be really interesting to talk
with you about the beacons and all these

other kinds of things that you guys are
now doing that are actually more or less

using that software you built for the app,

a whole the other side of kind of the
education and getting the awareness of how

to make charging much easier for people.

Oh yeah, that's the big thing that we were
focused on with again, the beacon, the

charge weight beacon as we call it is a
retail kiosk that uses the exact same

software as the mobile app.

And the intent was to say, let's design a
way to explain and visualize what is a

very chaotic landscape for understanding
how to navigate charging.

but make it consistent through every touch
point someone is gonna have through their

customer journey, whether that's
researching online and they're at a

website, we can put it in a website.

If they go to a showroom for a car that
they were interested in buying, they have

it in the showroom.

And then they find out they can download
it to their pocket.

The repetition of simple consistency, with
simple consistency is very important in

retail marketing and retail products.

And that's what we've sought to create in
an agnostic and holistic fashion.

So,

People sometimes ask, like, what's the one
liner of charge?

I'm like, well, it's the branding of
electricity as a fuel.

That's what it is.

It's a packaged way to visualize all the
options you need to know how to navigate.

And then it's...

tailored because it's software to the
automaker that you want to look at to the

dealership and the brands that they sell
and then inevitably to the car that you

buy.

Again, it's it is designed with a lot of
intelligence behind the scenes.

And the beacon is an example was just one
way to address a big problem, which is

dealers.

They don't they don't ever have to explain
fuel when they're selling a gas car.

They just say go buy it and go to the gas
station.

You're fine.

And that's how most people shop.

So to your point about that example, that
one couple we talked to.

they had a brand of vehicle they've always
bought.

And so when they think we need to buy a
new car, this brand we've always owned has

an electric version now.

Well, that's of course the one we're gonna
buy because we trust that brand.

They're not thinking even as a consumer, I
have to shop thinking about energy

efficiency of the battery pack based on
the range.

What is the charging capability?

And some of this stuff will even out over
time, but it's not gonna happen overnight.

And to quote Gabe Klein from the joint
office for DOT and DOE,

He's on a podcast that they did
internally.

He said, adapters are going to be a part
of EV ownership for the foreseeable

future.

And so this element of you have to know
you can connect to fill up.

And then once you've connected, how long
do you have to wait?

These are fundamental questions that
average people need answered quickly.

Whereas early adopters, they'll dig all
the way down in the weeds and find the

answers like you or me might.

But

Yeah, face value, if we want to grow the
EV market and make people feel happy and

comfortable, we have to think differently
about how we communicate.

And the beacon at the dealers is just one
way to help solve that problem in the

journey someone will be on.

I think that summarizes it beautifully.

And you're totally right around making it
easier for people because this really

actually isn't a new thing for automotive.

There's always been kind of like,
obviously the automotive nerds who want to

look into the specs like, oh yeah, if I
get the turbocharger for this, or if I get

the inline six versus the V4, there's
clear.

things that 90% of people do not care
about.

But there's always been that option.

The motor trend readers that are like, oh
my gosh, the displacement on this thing is

crazy.

It's over 10 years, it's gone up by 0.1
liters.

Wow, there's three more horsepower.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, color it however you want.

It's still being a nerd in a specific
knowledge base.

And I think that's definitely true with
EVs.

And I think it's great to see that, how
that's grown because...

Uh, we've had a couple of the people on
the podcast so far, and I've talked to

them where now you have the hot rotting
community that's doing the same thing.

And they're looking at permanent magnet
motors versus different types of matters

with this chemistry.

And they're kind of approaching it from
that, but it's on the complete opposite

side of the guy who's trying to get down
from 260 watt hours per mile to 250, just

to get that like extra efficiency out of
it, but once again, very cool stuff across

the board, but those are outliers.

Well,

Yeah, it speaks to the issue that we've
been talking about now for over a half a

decade, which is we have to ask ourselves,
where are people coming from?

And anytime you're taking any product to
market, this is just marketing 101, is if

there's an incumbent product that the
general public loves using, and you're

trying to supplant that, okay, what is it
about that product that they love?

And

The argument that many people use about,
oh, if you buy an EV, you don't have to go

to that stinky gas station anymore.

My response is most people couldn't care
less.

If they are buying gas, the biggest
concern they always have is the price.

But the idea that a gas station is so
stinky that they would never wanna go

there ever again, there are certainly
people that will say that.

But is it the vast majority of the
populace?

No, because if that were true, gas cars
wouldn't be very successful.

But people are willing to deal with that
to say,

I'll go fill up and it takes me five to 10
minutes and it costs me 50 bucks or 60 to

80, who knows, 100 bucks.

But they're willing to pay for that
convenience of the other product that they

need, which is their mode of
transportation.

So gas is just a built in necessity that
they think they have to have.

How many times have we heard when people
say, oh, it's a pure electric car and they

say, yeah, but where's the gas go?

Because they equate.

I still I even heard that a month ago
about a Tesla and they're like, wait, what

makes them special?

They're just hybrids.

And I was like, I know they're joking.

But I mean, it's exactly true.

It's still funny.

It's and it's one of those things that I
think that, you know, we've been beating

this drum now for literally years, but
it's becoming more obvious now because as

we've been discussing, and as we chat
about before we started is we're hitting

that mainstream market and these people

that we want to have buying into and
believing EVs for their driving needs,

they need to be explained the information
far differently than what we've been

doing.

We can't just keep going back to the well
saying, well, everybody will think like an

early adopter.

And the answer is if that were true, Apple
computers wouldn't exist.

I mean, so we really need to be thoughtful
around how we present technology to

people.

And again, back to the incumbent aspect of
what is the product people have been using

forever.

It's a magic liquid that yet smells

and it's expensive, but boy, when you get
that magic liquid and you put it inside

your car, you get to move freely and
quickly and it doesn't really take much

out of your life for time.

And so that's important.

And knowing how, if that's the competitive
landscape of how you need to communicate

how your fuel works, you better be
bringing more to the table than, well,

this is a J1772 7.2 AC kilowatt connector
that can charge you up in about eight

hours time.

And then your only way to make that sound
better is saying something ridiculous

like,

It takes me, I tell people it takes me 10
seconds to charge.

And every time I hear that, I say, please
never say that again.

Because I could say the same thing about
pumping gas.

Because all you're talking about is
connecting to your fuel source.

I get you're being creative and kind of
cute around, well, then I just go in my

house and I go on with my life.

Perfectly fine, but that's not what an
average person that knows nothing needs to

hear.

They will actually want to know how long
does it take to fill up.

And then when you break the news of, well,
that's at my house and it takes, if I need

a full charge, about eight hours,

it immediately sounds terrible.

And then you're trying to regain their
trust again by saying, oh, no, but then if

you find a DC fast charger, it only takes
maybe 15 to 20 minutes.

And they go, great.

But then when they realize that that's the
right fast charger with the right car, and

you see this game is we have to be much
more thoughtful about how we communicate

this because people are gonna just start
calling BS, frankly, on the EV industry.

And I for one can't blame them.

And that's what we've been working very
hard to try to resolve.

So.

Totally, and I think it is just kind of a
confusing juggling of, as you even said,

the J1772 versus the North American
Charging Center and CCS1, CCS2.

It all seems to be kind of going more
towards a single or depending on the

market, a unit, but even then that's still
years away from, and we're not even sure

if that's gonna happen.

It looks like it will, but.

People said that about CCS a year ago.

They said that about Chattemo too.

That's the future.

But let's be fair, Tesla's plug type,
which is now the Nax, NACS, J3400 if

you're talking SAE, it is without doubt
the best design.

It is elegant, it's simple, it's
lightweight, it's identical to what you'd

use at home and away from home.

So the user experience of that is very
elegant.

And that's credit to them.

And it only took automakers that aren't
named Tesla years to realize, oh yeah, the

fueling experience is a fundamental part
of this ownership of an EV.

And so credit to Jim Farley when he said,
you know what, hey, we're making a pivot.

And then everybody else that kind of came
on after the fact, it's like, well, I

mean, not everybody's here yet.

I mean, in those mountains, like
Volkswagen Group is still kind of saying

no.

And fairness, they've got billions
invested into a charging network that

doesn't have NACs on it.

But these are things that even to your
point, even we waved a magic wand

tomorrow, and if everything became, you
know, the Tesla connector, the Naxx

connector, or the red connector in charge
way overnight, we'd still have to contend

with power.

We still have that gamemanship of that
conversation we just had about it takes me

10 seconds, oopsie, I meant eight hours
and kind of thing.

So it's not like it's the silver bullet
solution, but it certainly is a good step

forward, in my opinion, for making people
enjoy the experience more for sure.

Well, it goes back to exactly what we were
saying early about these other, uh, the

two brands that these other people were
looking at because at that, there's that

in that comparison, they're talking about
the same charge port, but the battery side

of it completely changes what that dynamic
is and the charging ability for how often

and how long they have to stop to charge
there with, uh, with the work you've kind

of done there with some of the
integrations you've done with the

Cause I'd be kind of curious to hear your
experience while Chargeway has kind of

evolved with, because I believe it's
compatible with CarPlay and Android Auto

or just CarPlay or?

Currently CarPlay and Android Auto.

Yeah, we've been focused on trying to get
that out to market.

Version two and the redesign basically got
bumped up the list on getting that done.

But yeah, Android Auto for emulation for
Android Auto is something that we're

hoping to have out at the beginning of the
year.

So.

Well, in your experience of kind of going
from the app to now the actual

infotainment in the car, were there any
surprises or kind of any interesting

things that you learned with that
addition?

Or was it kind of more or less now the,
all that changes the view for the driver?

Oh, and actually, no, it's actually, it's
the former.

It's the problem with, it's not a problem,
but Android Auto and CarPlay.

By design, they're trying to make it as
easy to simplify to the UI UX of it, make

it so there's not a lot of distraction on
there.

They reduce a lot of content off of what
you can show.

So you have to be very selective with what
you show, but it can start to really chip

away at the value of what the software is
doing in some ways.

And there's also just some limitations
around what the software can do in iOS and

Android when you're emulating inside the
car.

certain treatments they do to mapping, for
example.

We have our own UI for how we identify
pins and charges on the map with color and

number for plug type and power, but how
Android and how iOS might collectively

group pins together throws off our UI a
bit and there's really no work around for

it, but it's their way of trying to,
again, take what you're offering up as an

app, feed it into the vehicle world in a
way that it creates value, but also

doesn't distract.

So there's a lot of people to get a lot of
joy out of using CarPlay.

And we've got a lot of our users tell us
that they're really happy that we have it.

But there's ways we'd love to refine it
more.

But there's just some limitations to it
currently.

Frankly, I think that once Apple really
steps into the game and starts offering

software for vehicles, I mean, Project
Titan aside, and if they're building some

EV or whatever, like that's meh, you know,
but if they're going to come through with

what they're talking about for in-vehicle
infotainment and software,

frankly, I'm excited to see what that
could be.

Because if you are talking about driving
EV right now, I mean, Tesla's, they are

the number one when it comes to software
UI, UX, and how smooth it operates.

It's just very well built.

And frankly, everyone else is behind that,
still just trying to figure it out.

And that's even for vehicles that have
Google integration, there are some areas

there where there's just still some needs
for improvement.

So I think that's a fundamental piece.

So.

CarPlay and Android Auto are good as a
kind of a stop gap, I think, but we'll see

what happens as those two tech titans
really start to really get into this

space, you know, time will tell.

And hopefully we get to work with them on
it.

So.

Yeah, that's great to hear.

I mean, I know it's kind of one of those
easy things that I think it's probably

true for a lot of listeners too, where
it's like.

if you're renting a car and you don't
know, or you're not familiar with that

brand, having the car play kind of is just
like the easy thing to plug it in and just

now you know how the car works.

Or how- It feels familiar, right?

Right, exactly.

Okay, this is not scary.

Right, right, right.

And I think that fundamentally, it kind of
goes back to a core value, maybe

unintentionally of the Chargeway app, of
just trying to make it something familiar,

something easy, and really to simplify it
across car brand.

Because I've used it

when I've kind of played with a couple
other different car brands and I don't

really either trust the native routing
software or to be honest, sometimes it's

just so slow that I just say whatever and
go with something I kind of know and trust

more.

With that, has there been many
conversations or can you share if

Chargeway has really been working with any
OEMs to like natively help their actual

infotainment routing systems?

Yeah, we've had plenty of those
conversations with plenty of OEMs and

we're having more of them again because I
think again, rewinding four or five years

when we first came to market with our
solution, we met with everybody and that

included, I mean that name of OEM we met
with them.

And I think what we discovered quickly
then was we were having meetings with

people that had never even thought of
this.

They were running EV teams at legacy OEMs
and getting their feet under them for what

they needed to build.

But again, the perspective of the
automakers is,

This isn't something that we normally
solve.

We build the car, these will have big
batteries in them.

They'll have a connector on it.

Yes, we need some software, but we can
source that.

We can find a software partner that can do
that for us, et cetera.

And I think it was an interview done by, I
think it was Jim Farley when he was on a

podcast, sometime this past year.

And he commented on that, because he said,
look, he's like, we currently have, I

forget how many software vendors that he
mentioned, but he said, we have to get...

all of them to line up on the same page
now.

And that's not simple.

Like there's a lot that goes into making
that happen in the ways that we need to be

thinking about how an EV operates.

And I've appreciated watching the candor
from people like him around the challenges

that the legacy OEMs face as it relates to
product development and then

manufacturing.

And that's something that, again, five
years ago when we met with a lot of folks

saying, hey, here's what we've developed
and this is why we think you should be

paying attention.

Many of them said, yeah, we agree,

that this is going to get solved
elsewhere.

And here we are half a decade or more
later, and it didn't get solved elsewhere.

In fact, we still have issues related to
Volkswagen Group having gone through a lot

of turmoil with software.

Even Ford's team has said, yeah, we're
going to do stuff internally, but we're

inviting other platforms to be a part of
what we're doing.

But then you have other companies like GM,
they are all in on using Google.

And that's gonna be, and they've said
like, we're gonna do our own stuff in

house too.

You're not gonna have CarPlay anymore.

You're not gonna have Android Auto.

And the response to our conversation we
just had, how many people read that news

and on social media were basically saying,
are you crazy?

Like, this has to be so perfect, you know?

And it's- Yeah, no, and it's definitely,
that alone has been a topic we've talked

about on this episode, that decision.

It just needs to be pretty damn good.

I've seen a couple early reviews saying it
is pretty good, but I mean that, like we

just talked about, it's a big crutch for
people when they're getting into a new car

and it's just one of those battles and of
all the things that you have to

essentially rebuild and think about and
put the investment resources in when going

to a fully electric platform that kind of
makes the question is like, is that the

biggest priority right now?

Oh yeah.

And how often do we still see people on
owners groups that'll put up an email they

got from

you know, the brand of vehicle they own
will say, like, you're due for an oil

change, or they'll even say it inside the
car, you know?

And they're just kind of like, really?

You know?

And it's just, I think in fairness, we're
asking a very large global industry to

think differently about the product
they've built for the last century.

and it's a lot to unpack.

Aside from the skin and bones of the cars
that they built, and that's where, again,

the legacy auto brands, they still shine.

You could put a brand new Audi or Ford or
anything next to some of the newcomers,

and you can see that, well, these legacy
brands, boy, they know how to put together

a car outside and inside.

And it's...

It finishes great materials.

Oftentimes are so spot on.

But it's that's just skin deep.

If you go underneath battery software,
access livability is what I can always

refer to it as.

Yeah, there's just I mean, it's as funny
as it is, like even my wife doesn't want

to for things where we have two cars of
all things.

One is a Tesla Model Y, which is kind of
our road tripper daily car.

And then the other car is a 1987 Land
Rover Defender 90, which is about as

complete opposite.

Yeah, I was gonna say, go Sir.

As you can get.

Woohoo.

Yeah, the plan is to make that electric
eventually, but it's living in central

Oregon, it's a great adventure vehicle,
and I love the thing for completely

different reasons.

But the problem is like a car like that
has infinitely more character than I don't

care what brand you wanna throw at it of
its modern equivalent, because they've all

more or less gone to electric, steering,
all these other things that kind of

And it's Land Rover.

That's kind of the beauty of it is you're
happy if it starts and even happier if

there's not like a mouse or something in
the car or any other kind of pleasant.

I mean, it gives a character.

All the old cliches around like, yeah, you
love it if it runs kind of thing.

Right, oh yeah, no.

And that's also the ironic beauty of it.

Like I opened it the other day just to
look underneath and check a couple of

things.

And I can't think of anything I have seen.

recently, not even car wise, just like so
many like products or appliances that have

so few wires.

There is like, essentially, it goes from
the battery to the lights, and then a

couple of check engine lights, and then
the rest is all hardware and manual, which

is kind of a beauty, beautiful kind of
simplicity to it.

But that's going to down a whole different
rabbit hole.

There's an analog.

I mean, there's a totally.

Yeah.

And that's like a car that

really has not many features.

It doesn't even have a tachometer or even
a, it has a CB radio that someone

installed, but it doesn't have a regular
radio.

And then you look at, yeah, you're right.

Like some of the Audi, I mean, pretty much
any of the German brands.

Amazing on the outside, great styling.

Get in the seats, feel amazing.

My mother actually is looking to replace
her decade old Mercedes and she's kind of

been going back and forth because the one
thing she wants is it to be electric.

But even then it's like she starts playing
with these other things and she gets kind

of either overwhelmed or you're right.

It's like the livability of it just kind
of falls apart.

And I think this kind of goes what I was
trying to say was my wife one of her big

things now is because they tell us like if
she buys another car, like the dog mode

feature is she won't consider a car
because we have dogs because it has that

kind of silly thing.

But any modern electric EV should really
be able to do it.

And it's that livability thing that you

the companies that if you want just a car
to get you from point A to point B, and

that's what a lot of people say they want.

That's sure.

That's pretty easy.

But when you start kind of like talking to
people about how they use the car or

what's really important to them, that's
when you start, there's that kind of idea.

Like, Oh, just cause this car company can
build something that has better panel gaps

or something else like that.

it really falls apart in why some of these
startups have kind of transcended from

being startups and are now very large,
successful, new automotive companies.

Well, we're kind of just walking around
the topic, but I mean, we're referencing

Tesla in most ways.

And I think, you know, and Rivian is an
example.

There's a lot of people that, that came
out of the Tesla alumni group that joined

companies like Rivian that have taken a
lot of learnings out of.

some of it, you know, cutting their teeth
on it.

That's copy great artists deal kind of,
which is fine.

And it works for them.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I mean, even the little
stuff, like you got dog mode inside the

Tesla and you got like the little, the
little Sasquatch dude inside of Rivian you

know what I mean?

But, but those little things that add a
level of, you know, comfort and some, just

like cuteness is not everybody wants to,
we've seen movies about the future where

it's like these heads up displays and
screens that have just charts and numbers

and lines and graphs and

And for some reason, everybody on the ship
knows how to use it.

You know, and I'm looking back going, I
gotta be honest, I don't think that's

like- That seems like a step back.

Well, it's just like, yeah, I think most
people are gonna be like, you guys have a

button that says EZ on it?

Because back in like forever ago, there
was a company called Staples that did

that.

And I loved it, you know?

I mean, and it's a gag, but that's how
people think.

And I think that the in-vehicle
experience, I mean, I've driven plenty of

other EVs aside.

I mean, my wife and I,

She has a Model Y, I have a Model 3, but
prior to that we had a Bolt, we had both

generations of Chevy Volt, we had a Spark
EV, and I've driven plenty of other

vehicles, and I have to say there is
something to the minimalism approach that

Tesla has used.

Now on one hand, it's great for
manufacturing because it's like 75 less

buttons, you know?

It's just, it's like, eh, it's cheaper to
build a car that way.

But at the same time,

the to your point about how they can make
changes and add features that are unique

leveraging software that way is really
amazing.

And I think that they've really shown how
they can do that in a very thoughtful way.

Um, but these other companies that again,
legacy brands, especially they have to

figure out where software will live in
their world as a core competency.

But I hear that conversation.

And then on the other side, the next day I
hear, and now we have blank energy as part

of our home energy, something I'm going,
okay, I get it.

It's important to figure out how to
compete.

But at some point, I mean, I'm very
exhausted with the press releases.

Let's say that.

I don't wanna see it.

That's pretty blately.

Yeah.

I mean, it's how often can you read
something and if you're in the new, if

you're in the know, you look at it and go,
no, that's fluff.

Yeah.

Well, and it's no meat on that bone.

It kind of goes back to the conversation
we were also having earlier, uh, about an

organization around like focusing on all
sorts of different things instead of

staying in that kind of core area.

And I, I am the biggest fan.

I think the concept of vehicle degrade is
really fascinating.

I think there's a lot of potential, but I
do not think they have thought that one

through as far as how many questions that
generates.

And it gets a lot of people interested in
the technology, but unfortunately, uh,

it falls apart real quickly when they find
out they have to upgrade their panel just

to do it.

And that's $6,000 plus another $10,000 to
put in another gateway and all these other

things they have to do.

Obviously if you've got a really brand new
home and the panels wide open, yeah, it

should be, then it's only a couple
thousand dollars.

But it's not- But it's still thousands of
dollars.

Yeah, exactly.

And it's not like, I think everyone sees
like, oh, I just plug it in and it just

works.

And unfortunately- Well, that's what the
Super Bowl ad.

Yeah, a few years ago.

And the reference you just made is exactly
what I saw in an owner's group.

Someone had reserved a particular truck
that promised that they could charge your

home for keep your house powered on for a
week or more.

And they reserved the truck and then they
called their electrician and the

electrician said, what are you doing?

And he's this is a guy in this.

He had a whole paragraph, multi-paragraph
response, but it wasn't even about the

money.

It was about the fact that he felt duped
because by the time he got done talking to

his electrician, the guy walked him
through it and said,

Yeah, this is going to probably end up
costing about 20,000 bucks to fully

upgrade everything and get all the
equipment and do it to do what you want.

And that to me is, is again, it's just the
we have to look like we're competing.

So let's say something.

And then, oh, we didn't really know what
we were talking about.

But also in fairness, let's be honest,
like Tesla, they weren't offering Vita X

either.

They, they, they're just like buy more
batteries from us.

Yeah.

It's only really within the announcement
of the cyber truck within the past month

that they're like, okay, now we're going
to try doing this.

Well, they, they signed themselves up for
that with every deal they made for access

to the supercharger network and vehicles
and for sure.

Yeah.

But I grew the a thousand percent on the
Vita X promise.

And we've been asked this by many partners
that we work with is, you know, what's the

role you think you can play in, in the
programs we have related to manage

charging and Vita X, et cetera.

And I,

And we've got some things that we're
working on for how we can slowly roll into

those conversations.

But I've said to many people, I think the
promise of that, like you said very well,

is people are not thinking about the human
element there.

What are we actually asking people to do?

We're effectively saying to them, if
you're a homeowner, when you plug your

vehicle in, we will siphon fuel out of
your car at some point that you paid for.

and we have to then offer them some kind
of actual value back.

And right now the programs that are pilots
around this are, if you sign up today,

we'll give you a hundred bucks.

And if you keep doing this at the right
time, we'll give you another 25.

I think that for early adopters that want
to, just cause they like to nerd out on

the engineering and the tech, I think they
might dive in.

Average folks are going to say real quick
timeout.

If I pay hell no.

Yeah.

If I paid X amount of dollars for this
fuel, you better be giving me a pretty

good premium to suck it back out of my
car.

You know, and it's, it's just invasive.

And everybody that I've talked to inside
of the energy sector that are a lot of

them that are leading these projects,
there is a need to create a better

appreciation around.

This is not a thermostat.

This is not a fridge.

This is someone's car.

It's their, it's their

You can't just tap into that like it's a
thermostat.

It's a different, you are engaging with
someone that someone and something about

their ownership experience that's very
different than what you might be thinking.

So yeah, I agree with you 100% is there's
a lot more that needs to be discussed

around this before.

We have all these stationary storage
things waiting for us to tap into.

It's like, no, there are people that own
cars that you're hoping they will sign up

for what you're doing.

And then there's that whole thing called
software that a lot of these OEMs are

struggling with that is the only way that
this is all gonna work.

Right, yeah.

Yeah, I'm cautiously optimistic, but I
mean, I think there's plenty of reasons

you could say why Tesla actually wasn't
doing it.

But I always did think the argument that
at least they were trying to make, or at

least Elon was specifically about the
ideas like, well, if you're, and kind of

growing up somewhere where maybe once a
year, maybe twice a year, if it's a bad

year,

Uh, we might lose power for like a couple
of days.

And so the argument was like, well, if
you're out of power and it's plugged in

your car and you have to go to the store,
that's great for you, but the rest of your

family now is out of dark.

Yeah.

And I mean, some power is better than no
power, I guess, but like, you and I kind

of agree with that.

I was like, yeah, that kind of kind of
automatically, uh, now that you can even

do that with the cyber truck as a backup
thing, I would still.

I mean, now I don't have to buy like 10 or
whatever powerwalls, but it's still like,

if you actually consider about this, you
still have to buy one.

They're not cheap.

Well, and no, that's that example.

And that's a whole nother thing.

Yeah.

But that's the exact example.

The gentleman that had reserved that it
was a 450 lightning.

And that was the exact example he gave.

He said, he said, my daughter is an
asthmatic.

And sometimes we've had to rush her.

You know, like we've had incidences where
we've had to take her to the hospital.

So what happens if I have to take her to
the hospital?

And my electrician said, well,

you unplug your truck and your house turns
off.

And he said, how is this a value add to my
life again?

I don't get it, you know?

And so, I mean, again, my family, we have
solar and home batteries and we have seen

the benefit from that even here in Oregon
where we're not exactly a solar haven, but

it really works well.

And we don't have to think about, if I
could augment what I've done with my home

batteries by going further with my car,

I would totally say, yeah, that's a cool
added feature.

I'd be down to that.

But having it be like the binary of it's
either this or that, I think giving

consumers some flexibility on that is
going to be important in the long run,

because I don't think people are just
going to say, I've plugged in my EV, and

if you want to suck power out of it, you
know, hey, have at it.

I just don't see how people are going to
sign up for that immediately.

I just don't.

Yeah, and I think this is true about a lot
of different things when it comes to EVs

right now.

especially thought this about the whole
V2G thing.

Maybe it can be the last thing we say
about it, but it reminds me of kind of

like Windows versus Mac in the nineties.

And you obviously would see like those
comparison charts, usually by some company

that had a Windows computer they were
selling about where it was different and

the functionality of future thing.

And visually that looks good, but it's not
like practical for what people are using.

And I think the big part of it too is, and
then actually you saw this the same with

iOS versus Android where

Apple's making all the money off their
computers and their hardware and it's,

people aren't really buying the hardware.

They're buying the functionality and the
software elements.

So X companies can try and compete on like
different function sets.

And then you can say, hey, this ABC
company has function set that one, two,

three car company doesn't have.

And it's just not a really good sell.

Or I mean, it might work, but it's really
just strong long-term, not a very strong

argument.

I just feel like,

And then there's the whole thing about the
battery warranty.

How many times do you charge it if you're
using it from the hat?

I don't know.

No, so the way I've finally- This goes
down a long rabbit hole of- Well, but it's

a big end to your point, the listeners
that you have for your podcast and folks

in this space, I think we all need to be
very honest to ourselves about what we're

talking about.

And I finally have said to folks in the
energy sector that we partner with, I

think there are ways to walk people into
the Vita X opportunity.

I think that at the end of the day, what
we're talking about is,

you know, V to H, vehicle to home, vehicle
to V to L, vehicle to load, vehicle to

grid, you know, V to G, and even V to V,
vehicle to vehicle, if you wanted to get

cute with it.

And it's a thing you can do.

But I think that what we finally landed on
for how we explain it to people in this

space for how they should be thinking
strategically about consumer engagement

is, right now no one has visibility into
anything.

Like that's the thing.

If you wanna go all the way to the step
of, we wanna control this thing fully.

It's like, okay, well right now you've got
nothing.

People aren't listening to you.

They're not paying attention.

They're not giving you information at a
minimum You need visibility into where our

EVs located so that at a minimum you can
be doing basic homework around What are

you doing to again your the grid around
that area?

And then with that visibility you can also
get a sense for how many of those vehicles

are actually V to X capable So how many
how many assets are there out in the

field?

Then from there the next step after
visibility is influence the best you can

ever beg for

is we'd like to influence your behavior
somehow.

That means either A, we would like to have
you not charge at certain times to help us

manage load, or when you're plugged in,
we'd like to maybe, you know, stop your

charge or pull some power off.

But the moment you go from that, you go
from influence into actual control.

And the moment you're having control, that
means that consumers have to say, I'm

signing up for this, that you can actually
control my destiny about how my car is

filled up.

That's a big step.

The value proposition has to be very real.

And after control is fully managed, like
it's just automated and that people just

plug in and they don't have to think, you
don't have to think it's just great.

And to your point, boy, that's a lot of
software.

Like that's a lot of the right things
communicating the right way that are also

built off of a value proposition that as
our conversation is, I think is showing,

it's built on some pretty shaky ground.

So I think- And it's using infrastructure
that's pretty damn old.

There's that I'm still amazed that more
utilities aren't offering up after the

experience we had here with our solar and
batteries here in Oregon.

I'm thinking if we're, if we're talking
about building more power plants, I sort

of got, there should just be a subsidized
program for, okay, if your, if your roof

has some decent sun access solar and some
home batteries, we've been 60% off grid in

the last two years in Oregon.

That's bunkers.

Yeah, that's crazy.

And it's like, why are we building more
power plants?

We could be offsetting so much of this
load with like, Hey, you have

It's just solar and some home batteries,
and you're good to go.

But then it turns into, well, what if we
just use their car?

And I'm just over there going, oh, no.

But I think there's already been so many
cool pilot.

I mean, yeah, this is actually what I
think is way more fascinating is virtual

power plants.

And obviously, a huge software component
to that, but much more impressive as to

what can be done.

And it's actually already working around,
especially kind of what you're talking

about, home use

being able when there's either a power
outage or the potential for a brownout

using software that's already available in
the technology to mitigate that and to

kind of minimize those issues.

And I completely agree with you.

I think there are other people and maybe
other interests that have kind of pushed

back on that.

But as far as like a practical, and I
think what most people are more likely to

experience first, like the whole concept
of having just solar and batteries that

are subsidized by your utility.

I think is much more likely to catch on
and be at least financially much more

approachable than the current status of
using your car as a big battery to backup

your house.

It's then it turns into who owns the
asset, who's managing it, et cetera, et

cetera, you know?

Right.

I just, I'm, the thing of it, it always
reminds me of that quote from Jurassic

Park when they're all sitting there having
lunch and he's like, your scientists were

so preoccupied wondering if they could,
they didn't stop to think if they should.

Yes.

You know?

And I've said that jokingly to some
colleagues in our industry because we, and

there's a fever pitch around some of this
stuff too.

The promise of something.

I mean, we saw it happen with autonomy and
that bubble burst.

We saw it happening sort of with charging
all of a sudden, a bunch of SPACs and EV

SPACs had happened.

Those kind of fizzled.

Now we're having this, well, what if the
energy is controlled a certain way?

And I just look at all these things, I'm
thinking, okay, brass tacks.

What is it we need people to engage with
us on and how do we need to help them have

and lead a quality life?

And there's an energy aspect to that in a
big way that they haven't thought about

before.

So it's getting them to think about it,
but then also not asking too much of them.

And I think that the influence piece of if
you invite them in and say, this is, this

is your, you choose your own adventure.

If you have a car that has a big battery
on it, we'd love to have you involved in

these programs because here's the value it
can bring to you.

And also potentially to, you know, other
aspects of, you know, your neighborhood or

God knows what I mean, but then you start
to walk that line of altruism that most

people kind of go, I'm not saying this,
but, uh, no.

And that happens all the time.

So right.

And that's, and I think we've kind of
touched on a lot of it.

I mean, if you go to the Chargeway
website, obviously a big portion of it is,

talks about utilities.

And obviously you've kind of had that
experience and exposure talking with about

this.

Is there anything that you can share that
you've done or you're working with

utilities now that is...

kind of what we're talking about or has it
been mostly around kind of the, I mean, it

sounds like a large part of this anyways,
education, but providing the education

through beacons or the charge way app for
X utility, or is it starting to kind of go

beyond that or is it kind of really does?

Well, I think it's still as much as you,
me and everyone else that's probably

listening.

We all talk about this all the time.

Again, we're a very small segment of the
marketplace and it's just the population.

We have done a lot of work with utilities
on helping them figure out where to

position, how to explain the value of
their programs.

We hear it very often where maybe it's a
level two program or if you sign up for

this level two home charging program, we
will give you X rebate.

And what is the hope of that program?

Well, we want you to buy this charger
because it's managed.

So we can do some testing around how we
can throttle your charge or turn it off or

and so And that's the thing.

It's a little bit of a it's kind of bait
and switchy, right?

It's like we'll just do this thing for
free and in the fine print it says we are

going to potentially turn off your charger
um a friend of a friend of mine in los

angeles, uh, was telling me a story about
one of his neighbors who Like they bought

a nest thermostat through a utility
program not realizing that

Oh yeah, we will shut your AC off if the
grid gets too stressed.

And he was flipping out over it and they
were talking about it.

And he said, yeah, but that's what you
signed up for.

He's like, no, I thought I was just
getting the rebate for a thermostat.

I didn't realize they're going to make my
house too hot to be sitting in.

You know, so that, that part of it is what
we keep talking to any utility we talk to

is about be very thoughtful around what
we're actually asking of people.

Right now they don't think about
electricity and energy virtually at all.

We've had very.

simple to use and frankly cheap to access
energy for a century that has made our

modern life what it is.

But this new element of you need to
understand how electricity works in your

life, whether that's your home or maybe
your motor to fuel your mode of

transportation, we have to be very
thoughtful around again, what is that

incumbent experience they've had and what
are they used to and

We're never going to get there by making
them become electrical or mechanical

engineers to understand the value of Why
we're pulling X amount of kilowatt hour

off their battery.

It's just not gonna happen So yeah, I mean
it's not to go too deep and it's I mean

that that's very spot-on Especially when
you start time out of EVs because then you

have so many variables

but you look at how so many different
utilities and especially counties and

different cities are really pushing for
the electrification of home appliances

versus like natural gas and others.

And even that has such a educational
barrier to understand like, well, this is,

I've always used natural gas, good or bad.

And then I think that's facing so many
headwinds to then try and throw on the EV

component and how all this works.

And then- You can't get them to switch
their oven.

Yeah, exactly.

You're asking them to do that and then
back up your house?

Hi, Rad.

This has sounded a little far-fetched.

And there's political ramifications to it.

And the fact that electricity has become
politicized is bonkers, but it's where we

are.

And I think that that's a big thing that
should be really, again, we should be

paying attention to how did that happen.

And with regard to, again, the
conversations we have with utilities, we

have programs where we have worked to
help.

position and promote the value of these
programs with regard to how does that look

inside of the chargeway beacon?

How can a sales rep at a showroom see
value?

And nine times out of 10, it's, hey, if
you provide information to our customer,

and this is the utility saying this, we'd
love to work with your dealership on how

we can give you some benefits around those
programs.

And that's where you have to help create
relationships between stakeholders that

haven't really worked together before.

And, um, and, but the automakers are kind
of catching wind of, oh, it's a, it's,

it's a holistic process.

So we'll just roll in your level two
charging install when you buy the car.

That undermines any level two program from
utility at the showroom.

Yeah.

And so there's those challenges.

Um, but I mean, we've got a variety of
different things we've touched on.

with utility programs.

One, we have a program we're launching
with Austin Energy starting in Q1, Q2 of

this coming year.

Oh, cool, congrats.

It's solely focused on how we can give
energy information to drivers in the

Chargeway mobile app, and how is it
related to their lifestyle.

Because if they are a homeowner, it's a
different type of value proposition than

if they're not.

And what are these programs from a utility
like Austin Energy?

And how can we showcase the value of that
to each of the users that we have based on

the fact that we're already trying to
create a tailored experience for them.

And that's the value they get out of using
Chargeway.

So it's about creating a personal,
authentic relationship with your customers

as it relates to energy and making sure
that the ecosystem you're having them live

within has answers for them.

Because if they have to keep.

jumping out to find solutions, or if
they're given information that feels

misleading, as we've discussed and we've
seen from various stakeholders, well, then

you just immediately lose trust.

And that's a big part of what we're
talking about is building trust with the

public around electrification.

Yeah, I mean, I feel like The last hour
already we have.

I mean, there's so many different areas
that we've discussed that could easily be

their own podcast episodes and I don't
know.

I feel like

I really enjoyed talking with him at
because sometimes I feel very optimistic

and I feel reminded about everything that
also bothers me.

But at least I know there's someone else
that knows and understands these problems.

Well, let's yeah, let's try to keep it
optimistic.

So well, that's not to say there's not
great things happening.

For sure.

The sales volumes of EVs, the joke, it's
all going in the right direction.

Yeah, it's happening.

I think that there's reason to be
pragmatic.

around pragmatic.

That's yeah.

Yeah.

And it's just, it's just saying what's
happening in this conversation and where

are we seeing sales volumes going to?

We're at 8% now nationally.

California is at like 24% or something
like that last quarter.

So things are going in the direction that
electrification is, is it ain't going away

for sure.

And I, I think just, uh, I mean, those are
great examples and great numbers, but what

I think is so, uh, to be positive and to
kind of

reconfirm what we've, we've seen these
similar things happen in China.

And there's obviously sometimes been
different levers that different

governments and stuff and even public or
private companies can pull, but it seems

like everything we've seen, whether it's
China or Europe, a lot of these kind of

have been at a logarithmic scale.

And for a long time, everyone in the
industry has kind of said, oh, no, it's

not going to happen here.

No, no, that can't.

Yeah, that'll be the thing that happens in
Europe.

But I mean, even just in the last, I'd say
two years, let alone half year.

Uh, the, and there's been a little bit of
a pullback, but I think you're just seeing

that across the auto industry right now in
general.

It's not really that much of an EV
specific thing, but you're seeing all

those right numbers that we've seen in
other markets where it's like, no, this is

going to happen.

Maybe it's going to happen.

Like, okay, crap, this is actually
happening.

We are, we've got to get on board whether
we've wanted it to or not.

And I think it is obviously a really
positive thing.

And so I think where we're seeing
everything going is all stuff to be

excited for.

Oh my gosh.

And to be optimistic about it.

Cause I mean, for how far, for how long
I've known and kind of followed the stuff

you're doing, it just seems like, like I
said earlier, when Chargeway launched,

there was maybe the Model S, the Bolt, the
Leaf and a couple.

I mean, we initially introduced the idea.

This would have been what, 2017?

So there was a few more cars on the
market.

Yeah, there was more on the, yeah.

You know, but to your point, not a ton.

I mean, it was like maybe the i3.

The Fiat 500E or something.

A lot of them that have come and gone.

Right, yeah, exactly.

And compliance cards that are now in the
dustbin of history.

Yeah, collector's cards somewhere, I
guess.

But for sure.

But I think I also want to be respectful
of your time because I realize we're kind

of coming up almost an hour here.

We've talked about where the apps come,
where it's going, the things that we're

excited about.

Can you share just a few things that if
you haven't already about?

since you started Chargeway, things that
have kind of surprised you or you weren't

expecting kind of see with where you had
started and where you might see either the

pull from the market or just kind of the
feedback from users of the app.

I think one of the things that surprised
me over the last five years is I frankly

anticipated that the third party charging
networks would have a better understanding

of the role that they were going to play
in the ownership experience.

Um, and they would be concerned about
their brands looking like they don't care

about the driving and fueling experience.

But over time, I, you know, it just became
more obvious that because of the business

models that exist within EV charging and
how grants are issued and how revenue is

made and things like that, it just became
so obvious that it was in some cases,

unfortunately, not about the driver.

And it was far more so about the
opportunity to grow the business.

and kind of, you know, kind of pass the
buck over to whoever was buying your

services to say, now it's your problem to
make sure that the charger is okay and

that drivers are satisfied.

But at face value, the way that those
programs were being sold, whether it was

to a policymaker, a city, I mean, a
municipality, or even a small business, it

always was with the promise of, no, our
charges are on all the time and it's on

our app and you're on our network now and
it's gonna be so great for you.

And I think that

that in the long term, like in the last
five years, especially we've seen the

damage it's done.

We've seen the articles all the time about
people saying you can't rely on these

things.

And it's unfortunate.

And I had far more optimism around that
for networks.

And frankly, Ford and other brands waving
the white flag saying, I do see it as that

a waving of the white flag saying, we're
switching to the Tesla connector.

We're just going to basically say we'd
love to tap into what you guys got because

you take care of it and it works.

to me that sent a very, very loud signal
to third party networks of you either step

this up or the valuation of your companies
are just gonna go, and so they're gonna

have to do a better job.

So I would say that it surprised me how
that didn't improve as I thought it would.

Interesting.

And it's unfortunate.

But I think within that, what we tried to
do within the Chargeway platform,

was to provide as much transparency as we
could to people.

So again, in the station finding element
of Chargeway, again, if you click on a

pin, you can see the details of it.

We always had customer support information
that you could contact for the network.

And we always tried to tell you, it's this
network that's backing that station.

If it was white labeled and had branding
from gosh, who knows what all over it, we

would still say, if you got a problem,
this is who you call.

And if you want to leave a review, you
can, but if you want to report a problem,

you hit one button in the charge way up on
a station, it auto populates the station

information in the end to the body of the
email.

It sends it directly to the customer
support team from that network.

All you got to do is add your notes and
hit send.

So this is, these are ways that we've
always been trying to help drivers have a

voice in this space.

And

And obviously there's other, there's other
ways they can go about doing it on social

media and others, but that's something
that I think has definitely made an impact

on kind of adding a level of honesty from
some, you know, some players that needed

to improve upon things.

Um, but yeah, we'll see how that plays
out.

But I think we've always looked at it and
said, if we can showcase where you can go

and what your expectation and experience
of what your experience will be.

Then it's on the, it's on the companies to
live up to that on behalf of the driver.

And I think we're going to see that some
of those.

uh, both auto brands and networks are
going to survive better than others.

And, you know, I, I don't know.

I mean, again, this, there's a lot of, you
know, these on the market now, I mean,

rewind five years and we've quintupled how
many are on the market.

I would, I'd be willing to bet.

And we've also quintupled the amount of
networks out there.

Unfortunately.

And fortunately, yes, that is true.

That those have also increased going to
your point about reliability around those.

I think, uh, and what is fascinating, uh,
with.

going back to that conversation we had
earlier about the expectation of brands

and what you know, I'm like, Oh, I've
always bought brand X.

So I'm just going to buy brand X's EV.

And there might still be some areas where
they excel in, but it's very clear that

you're getting new or traditional carton,
not only just new startups and new players

in the space, but especially brands that
have kind of been, I think.

traditionally viewed as maybe like a lower
tier brand, but they've seen

electrification as kind of their
opportunity to really change that and get

a hold of that.

And of course, probably the biggest one
people think of are the key and Hyundai,

where they were kind of lower cost
competitive vehicles that were kind of

didn't offer a lot around traditional
amenities.

And they were already kind of in the
process of changing that expectation or

impression.

and then really just latched on to
electrification and have now kind of

leapfrogged a lot of others in the space.

So I think it's still very early days
between not just the automakers and the

startups and then the charging
infrastructure, but there's still so much

that, I mean, it's crazy how much has
changed since the last time we had you on

the podcast, so I can't wait, and
hopefully it'll be sooner than the last

time that we get to talk with you soon
about some of these changes and what we're

seeing in the space.

But...

One kind of final question I like to ask
people, I think we've also touched on a

little bit, but just to kind of get it out
there.

One question we ask everyone is, in your
experience, to you, what needs to either

be done by government or maybe private,
what could be done really between any of

these that would have the biggest impact,
you think, in moving EV adoption and EV

charging infrastructure forward?

That's a big question.

I will say I still, you know, I'm on the
broken record on it.

But now that we're hearing the
conversation from dealership saying, you

know, we've got all these cars stacking up
on our showroom lots and we're not happy

about it and people are wanting these
things.

The moment I saw that 4000 auto dealers
had written a letter to the Biden

administration saying we need you to pause
on your EV mandates and they are very

adamant about this.

I immediately just asked the question that
I asked, you know, years ago when we

launched Chargeway, which is why would
anybody go to a dealership to buy a car

that runs on electricity as a fuel if they
don't know anything about electricity as a

fuel?

Why would they do that?

Right.

They don't know what they don't know.

And we've seen countless campaigns around
EVs are here and let's get more butts in

seats and oh gosh, there's Super Bowl ads
that you just can't you couldn't miss an

EV ad a few years ago, right?

And that's all it was.

And I just kept watching that thinking.

Yep.

And if you go out and go to any bar or any
restaurant tonight in any town, you're in

America and say, if every gas station
closed tomorrow, how would you use your

car?

Because everyone would say, I couldn't.

But if we, if we were doing it the right
way with messaging, so we're talking about

from the federal government or wherever,
if we were doing it right with messaging,

the right response from the public because
if they had the right exposure to the

information correctly, they'd say, well,
it wouldn't really matter.

I guess I could just drive an electric
car.

Because right now people equate cars to
gasoline and the reason why we have brands

and again This is Ford and other brands
that have said we've got some vehicles

that are starting to stack up here they
have an uphill battle because the type of

customer that they've cultivated for the
last 20 years is not your ideal EV buyer

and Right, that's just that's a part of
the game and they are trying to pivot and

it's not the easiest thing in the world I
think combine that with the fact that

you have a lack of understanding around
what they can trust and what they even

know about there's walk down the street
every listeners podcast I invited this

next time your holiday party whenever you
hear this ask everybody in the room that

is not related to the industry if you're
an electric fuel for your car you know

about it or just say if every gas station
closed tomorrow how would you drive your

car and chances are they'd all say the
same thing which is I guess I couldn't

drive a car and that right there speaks to
the problem we have zero visibility to the

public.

around that they have a fuel choice.

And I think my hair is gonna get grayer
over time because I keep beating this

drum.

And I don't know why it's not more obvious
to everybody.

I mean, you can make the right ecosystem
like Tesla has, but man, you've got to

control it all.

And they've done it really well.

And we just don't have that luxury to
offer to the public from every product

line.

So that would be my hope is we can get
more honest to ourselves around the fact

that buying a car has always meant two
products, cars and gas.

and we've removed gas.

And so we have to talk about electricity
as a trusted fuel source and not get over

our skis and start asking Vita X questions
about, hey, can we tap into your car and

borrow some kilowatt hours?

Because people are very far away from
having that conversation.

I think that is a great place to end it on
for a couple of reasons.

One, clearly the battery in my camera has
died.

But two, I think that is such a great
summary of what the challenges that the

industry is facing

I think once again, what you and
Chargedway have done such a good job of

hoping to like get people at least a line
around to ask the right question and then

provide a really clear and concise answer
to.

So I just want to say thank you again so
much for being back on that and looking

forward to talking again with you soon.

Definitely.

Well, again, thanks for the invite and
always enjoy chatting with you.