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Host Lawrence Flowers introduces Real Talk as a space for honest conversations among men about divorce, sharing his 2024 separation and subsequent divorce and the challenges of raising daughters across two homes, especially during holidays. Joined by guest Denniston A. Muir, they discuss the emotional and practical effects of divorce, including loneliness, depression, isolation, and redefining stability through co-parenting, budgeting, and prioritizing children’s wellbeing, including therapy and open communication. They emphasize building a supportive circle, investing in mental health through therapy, gym, podcasts, and faith, and dealing with triggers and regret. The episode closes with encouragement that life continues after divorce, urging men to heal, stay focused on Christ, and seek steady, godly support rather than destructive distractions.
00:00 Welcome to Real Talk
00:29 Why This Podcast Exists
01:07 Divorce Hits Men Hard
01:42 Episode Roadmap
03:04 Meet Dennis Muir
03:23 New Norm After Divorce
04:41 Effects on Kids First
07:22 Holidays and Empty House
08:26 Emotional Surprises
11:20 You Are Not Alone
15:07 Redefining Stability
15:43 Co Parenting and Sacrifice
19:25 Money and Treating Kids
20:58 Therapy and Check Ins
23:13 Rebuilding Yourself First
24:10 Divorce as Another Hurdle
25:00 Divorce As A Hurdle
26:26 Grad School Drive
27:10 Freedom And New Norm
27:32 Investing In Yourself
27:54 Faith Shaken And Reframed
31:39 Gethsemane Connection
35:38 Healing Through Discipline
37:16 Hope After Divorce
40:27 Healing And Regret Triggers
47:17 Dating While Healing
49:50 Final Advice And Faith
Creators and Guests
What is Real Talk: Men, Divorce & Rebuilding?
Real Talk: Men, Divorce & Rebuilding is a podcast for men navigating life after separation, heartbreak, and major life transitions. Through honest conversations and real stories, we explore divorce, co-parenting, rebuilding confidence, finding love again, and growing into better fathers, brothers, and husbands. This is a space where men are heard, supported, and reminded they’re not alone. Whether you’re newly divorced, years removed, or still healing, this show exists to help you move forward with clarity, strength, and purpose. Your life did not end when your marriage ended. Now it's time to do the work so your "next" doesn't deal with the same things as your "ex."
01 - Real Talk - Intro
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[00:00:00] welcome to Real Talk. Well Real Men talk about real issues provided real insight.
Lawrence : My name is Lawrence Flowers, and lemme tell you a little bit how I got here. Back in 2024 my wife and I decided that we were gonna separate, and then a year later we finalized the divorce. Well, what happened with that? That broke up a home, so we had to deal with the different holidays and then also raising the kids in separate homes.
Um, so this podcast is the opportunity to hear about what men deal with during divorce. This [00:01:00] is space for honest conversations between men about real life, the struggles, the wins, and the moments that change us forever. Today we're talking about something that millions of men experience, but very few discuss.
Divorce for many men, divorce is just an end of a marriage. It is a feeling of being lost, a loss of identity, a disruption of fatherhood, financial pressures, loneliness, and that quiet question, where do I go from here? Here's the truth. While divorce can break parts of your life, it can also become a starting point for rebuilding something strong.
In this episode, we're gonna have real conversations about life after divorce. The first segment, we're gonna talk about the effects of divorce. As men, how does divorce affect you? You are not alone in divorce. When you're going through, you're [00:02:00] not the only one. Redefine the stability and after divorce.
Understanding your new norm. In the second segment, we're gonna shift a little bit. We're gonna talk about investing in yourself, your mental health, and your psychological health. Seek help. It's okay to not be okay. Next we're gonna talk about investing in your future life after divorce. There's still hope.
This is not your end. Dust yourself off. Keep moving. And lastly, we're gonna talk about investing in your brother. We've learned lessons while going through this. We're gonna leave you with a couple of nuggets that we've learned along the way to help you go through your divorce journey. This isn't a place of for pretending that everything is fine.
This is a place of honesty and growth and brotherhood. So if you're navigating the voice, recovering from it or simply trying to find your foothold, again, this conversation is for you. You're not the only one going through. [00:03:00] Let's talk about it. Let's have some real talk. So today I would like to introduce my first guest, a brother who's going through the same thing.
We walked through some of the exact same avenues he's here. We're gonna talk about going through divorce, rebuilding life, and figuring this thing out. Come on. Welcome Dennis and Muir. How you doing today, man?
Dennis: I'm good, bro. How you doing?
Lawrence : Good. Talk to the people a little bit.
Dennis: Um, well, just like my brother said, um, you know, divorce is something that happens, unfortunately.
It's not just about, um, breaking up a marriage. Sometimes it can be breaking up a home where there's kids involved. The whole family your, your traditional norm then becomes broken, um, altogether. And so a lot of times men struggle with. How do we handle that, you know, both mentally, um, as well as financially as well as, you know, adjusting to the, the new life, you know, that we're now forced to live, right?
Mm-hmm. So you're used to coming home to a full family, but now you know [00:04:00] some cases, some nights you home by yourself, right? Mm-hmm. Or you know, now instead of having the whole family together, you know, some nights. Is just you and the kids or something nice. It's just you by yourself. So it's adjusting to like a new norm.
And so it takes time to process that. It takes time to get involved with that. Um, you know, it takes time to just, you know, fully cope. And so that's really what we're here to talk about is how we've done it so far, you know, and how we're progressing and what, you know, tools and let life lessons that we've, you know, pretty much learned along the way.
Lawrence : 100%. Thank you man. Thank you so very much. Thank you for agreeing to being a part of this first podcast. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, man, lemme tell you, I wish it could have been about something else, right? Absolutely. But you know, life be, life is so things, you know, happen the way they happen. Right? Right. So first let's talk about the effects of divorce.
So, for me, I'll talk about what I had to deal with with going through the divorce. For me, the hardest part was, you know, seeing my daughters having to go through it. You know, this is something I never wanted them to have to experience. Right. So for me, you know, breaking up the home, having [00:05:00] that conversation because you know, we couldn't just break up, they were part of the picture.
Right? So the conversation of, you're gonna be with dad this time, you're gonna be with mom this time. For me, that was probably the hardest part of. The divorce process, right? So for you, what was yours?
Dennis: Um, it's definitely the same thing. Um, you know, I'm even rocking the pink today 'cause I'm a girl dad, right?
Mm-hmm. So, um, you know, it's pretty much like I, I already said the biggest change, the biggest difference is that, that, that that time, that space, you know, to where you're no longer coming home under one roof, right? Mm-hmm. Now the kids got two roofs, right? And so especially having young kids. Um, you know, our kids are around the same age.
Mm-hmm. But having young kids and, and putting them in that situation is, is difficult in itself. Mm-hmm. Because they don't fully understand. They just now know that there's a change. You gotta explain this, explain that. Mm-hmm. And you gotta explain it in a way to, for them to understand it. Right? Mm-hmm.
You can't explain it how you explain it to adults or you know, us understanding it, but you gotta explain it. So, how a kid will understand to make them [00:06:00] comfortable, to get them adjusted to their change. And so definitely the hardest. Um, yeah, the hardest part of the, the divorce process in its entirety was, um, the, the change of the, the family dynamic.
Um, you know, because now you know it's not just about you and your ex, you know, I think a lot of people just think that like, oh, we getting a divorce. It's about, you know, splitting up husband, a wife. No. If you got kids involved, it's spite of a family. Mm-hmm. And, and that's not really often considered, you know?
Mm-hmm. Um, I'm not a proponent, I've never been a person that was. All about divorce. I don't really believe in it. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, and, um, we'll expand on that a little later, but my whole thing was always about the family. Right? And I, I believe as two mature adults, um, you know, you should be able to work out certain, you know, certain things, right?
You should be able to come to an agreement. Compromise. Do what you gotta do to keep your family together, because that should be your dynamic and your di your dynamic and your focus is your family, but sometimes, you know, mm-hmm. The selfish part kicks in [00:07:00] and I'm not happy. And, and, and I want this, and I want that.
And then, you know, decisions are made, but, you know, consider, you gotta consider the kids. You gotta consider the whole. And so, you know, for me, there's been plenty of times, of course I wanted to throw in a towel, but my mindset would always go back to the whole. And so the toughest part for me was absolutely the, the, the, the kids like, you know, was.
The change of that norm.
Lawrence : Yeah. And then just to continue to piggyback, I say for me as well, holidays, because see, I'm a big holiday guy, right. Like I'm talking Thanksgiving, you know, everybody coming over Christmas. Right. You know, gotta do the, you know, the, the Santa Claus thing and all that kind of stuff.
So like, that was a big part of who I've been for so many years. Right. You know, I was married 15 years, so that's a lot of years of Yeah. I didn't
Dennis: even know that. Yeah.
Lawrence : Yeah. That's a a lot years of that. That's a lot years. Then all of a sudden it's like. Oh man, wait a minute. Christmas, they're not here. Like, what's going on?
Right, right. Yeah. I, I'll see 'em in two days, like, but this is not Christmas. Yeah. You know, so dealing with that and explaining to them that, you know, Santa Claus visited mama house and [00:08:00] dad house. Right, right. You know? Yeah. So it is like, just having those conversations was really, really, I. Big, um, and just being in the house by yourself.
Dennis: Right. Right. You
Lawrence : know, those moments, those quiet moments when the walls are talking. Yep. Like, that was crazy. When they say the walls, we talking, that's that's real. Yeah. Because it's like you're sitting there for, especially when you first move out and the, you're not hearing the kids fuss about that video game.
Right. You know, it is just nothing but you and your thoughts and it's just like, yo, and that goes to the next question, the emotional surprise. I did not realize. How much I would miss. The family group that we had built over the years that we were together. Mm-hmm. Like it's just something simple as coming home to somebody.
Dennis: Right. Right.
Lawrence : Like that was a big shift. Like, wait a minute, I'm coming home to nothing.
Dennis: Yeah. Yeah. I get that.
Lawrence : So that was one of my emotional surprises. Just like, whoa, I never knew. And then depression, you know, most people knew [00:09:00] me as the smiling guy, especially when I was working at Harry Cedar at the time.
That was one of the things they ever talked about was my smile.
Dennis: Right.
Lawrence : And that smile was. Gone. Mm-hmm. So any other emotional surprises to you on the way?
Dennis: Um, I even when you was talking, I was thinking about a lot of stuff, and I wanna say this in decency, and I wanna say this in absolute fairness.
Um, you know, um, for me, like I said, it was always the kids, right? It was, for me, it was always that family dynamic. So what's, nothing surprised me about how I felt afterwards because. The feeling that I felt or even feel is a feeling that I've always wanted to avoid, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. And that feeling is having a broken home, you know?
And so the way I was raised, you know, the way I've always, you know, always envisioned my family, my, you know, all that stuff. I did all I could to keep the family together and how I [00:10:00] wanted that to happen. Mm-hmm. Worse than that is like, I never wanted a broken home. I never wanted, you know, my kids here and I'm here, or something like that.
Mm-hmm. So it didn't, I'm not gonna say it surprised me, but it's just the fact of living that reality. Mm-hmm. You know, even just being transparent. Like even when I was out in the world doing my thing, I had a couple scares here and there, and my mindset was more like. I don't wanna, you know, I don't want my, my kids to really be in that situ, thank God.
Love it. Having, but, you know, I always thought of that, like, I don't want my kids in that type of situation. Like, I, I used to see it with my friends, I used to see it with other people, and it just don't, it don't look good. And then living it now, it don't feel good, you know? And so I wouldn't say it don't sur it, it, it surprised me.
I always say more like, it just sucks to really be in that reality. Mm-hmm. Um, because the, the truth is, like I said, I'm all about family. Like the way I was raised, like I wanted to just. Take that foundation, what my parents gave me, and you know, give it to my girls. And of course, as a single father, I do all I can for my girls to still give them that [00:11:00] life.
Mm-hmm. But it's just the reality that we're not all under one roof or they don't have. You and of course they have a mom and a dad, but they don't have that mom and dad under one roof and altogether. So I wouldn't say it surprisingly, but I think it just hits me harder, you know, with that reality.
Lawrence : Yeah.
So when reality hits you, it is, it's, it's like a wrecking ball.
Dennis: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Lawrence : Alright, so another thing we're gonna talk about, you are not alone in divorce. So with there being so many people getting divorced, fellas. You're not alone. Make sure you find you a circle. Um, so my question, Dennison is mm-hmm.
Did you have a time where you felt like you was isolated?
Dennis: Okay. I, okay. I have times where I feel like I'm isolated, but I know that that isolation comes from me. Mm-hmm. I withdraw. So it's not like in the, in the sense of like. People abandoned me. It's more in a sense of me just dropping off.
Lawrence : Mm-hmm.
Dennis: Um, the reason why I do that, and it, it, I've come to [00:12:00] realize, and we'll definitely expand on it later, I've come to realize some things that I, I pro, the way I process things aren't good.
Lawrence : Mm-hmm.
Dennis: But the reason why I do that is because I know my temper. I know my attitude. I know who I am, how I am, and rather, I'm not gonna be that person that's going to bring the mood down. I'm not gonna be that person that's going to be that sore thumb, like, oh, you know, something's wrong with him. Mm-hmm.
I'd rather just internalize and it, it's probably a bad thing, but I'd rather just internalize and isolate myself. Mm-hmm. You know, um, pretty much like, like, like you, I'm, I'm really the silly guy. Everybody thinks I'm serious all the time. I'm really not. If you get to know me, I'm just as silly as possible.
Right. And so I like to have fun. I like to, you know, tell jokes. I like to do that stuff. When I'm not in the mood for it, or I'm really down, I isolate myself because. I need to regroup, you know? Mm-hmm. I, I try to hold up as much as possible. Mm-hmm. But I think I suck at it, to be honest. And so people can tell.
And I don't wanna be that person that's like looking miserable or [00:13:00] always sounding miserable. Mm-hmm. So I wouldn't say that I feel isolated. I just know that I isolate myself. Mm-hmm. I can say that.
Lawrence : Let me tell you, for me, I am very grateful that we were wearing masks all the time. Mm-hmm. Because that actually helped me.
Hide a lot of my emotions. Right. Um, because I was dealing with depression and I'm so grateful for my circle, they would not let me stay there. Um, like my aunt every day going to work, we had a quick conversation and a lot of times it was just me getting stuff off my chest, right? So I was very grateful for my circle.
My pastor, you know, I was there, he was there. He talked to me through these different things. Um, this whole healing process, right? He definitely has helped me get there because, um. I never knew the feeling of depression until going through the divorce. Right. So, yeah. And I've seen guys who don't get the help they need, which we're gonna talk about later, about investing in your mental health, um, who don't get the help they need and they don't have a circle and they make bad decisions.
Yeah. So fellas, I'm gonna tell you, [00:14:00] you need a good circle. Make sure when you're going through this. A don't go through by yourself because you are not by yourself. Right. There's people who's either been through it or they love you enough to, you know, just be a ear. Because sometimes I don't need advice.
Sometimes I just need somebody to listen to. Yep. I mean, there was moments at church where I will break down and then a couple of the brothers like, Hey, you could come sit here in the office. We'll worry about what's going on at the church. Um, you just sit here and have your moment. And I would just cry, right?
Like there would be minutes, man. Man, there was moments yeah. Where I would walk out of service. Um, because twofold, my ex-wife go to the same church as I do. Yes. So you talking about going through divorce while seeing your ex-wife every single Sunday and Wednesday. Yeah. So those were tough moments, but you know what?
I had a circle that was there for me. So brothers, I cannot express it enough. Find another strong brother. Finding a strong family member that can help you go through this. 'cause you don't have to go through this year alone. You don't have to make bad [00:15:00] choices because you make emotional decisions. Right.
And a lot of times we make an emotional decision. It could be real bad.
Dennis: Absolutely. Yeah.
Lawrence : Real bad for
Dennis: sure.
Lawrence : Alright, so let's make one more shift. Redefining stability after divorce. Um. What did your what is your definition of stability? How did it change after the divorce? And this is talking about from finances, from raising the kids with co-parenting situation.
Dennis: Ooh, that's a lot. Um, well, of course, when I, when I think about the stability, um, again, I, I can't focus enough more on the home life, right? Of having that family dynamic, right? So once that's broken, now you gotta. Now you got a schedule. Right? And so, um, I'm thinking about the years and the things I've been through and, and so the co-parenting situation, um, I'm gonna just, just speak on that.
Lawrence : Mm-hmm.
Dennis: Um, the co-parenting situation [00:16:00] for anybody that's going through that. Is focus on your kids. That that's all, that's all I can say. Focus on what's best for your kids. Keep your personal self out of it. Keep your emotions out of it. Keep how you feel about the other person out of it. Focus on the kids and, and that's what I try to do.
So trying to keep things fair, trying to keep things, you know, adjusting. Sometimes you can't just, people are gonna be difficult, right? Mm-hmm. They just gonna be who they are. So what I personally had to do was I went and got a, you know, court order or whatever to try to, you know, for, for the custody and whatnot.
Um, and it wasn't even me fighting for custody to, you know. To, to, to, um, just have it in my, my way. It was really just fighting for joint custody, you know what I mean? Joint custody, joint legal, and joint physical. And the reason why I had to do that was because I wasn't getting any cooperation. And so, even with, um.[00:17:00]
My whole deal is I, I, I just want what's best for my kids. I want what's best for me and making the best out of the situation. And so when I do things and when I, when I operate, my all intention and my whole focus is always on my kids. I literally move, bought a house. God bless me with, um, you know, I always, I'm grateful where I live.
I'm grateful for my home, but I moved to where I moved. Because of my kids. I didn't really, you know, I, I, I'm, again, I'm grateful that's the overshadowing part, but it wasn't really the ideal for me because I'm away from like, where my friends are. I'm away from like, you know, the, the, the spots. I well I'll take that back 'cause they're building up a lot down there.
So I found some spots, but, you know, things I'm used to, lemme put it that way. Mm-hmm. Things I'm used to. I'm further away from my church. Like I said, I'm further away from my friends, um, you know, people I hang out with. So, but I made that sacrifice when I was looking for a home. Of being closer to my kids and making that adjust with our schedule.
And so when you talk about the, [00:18:00] the stability, how that's changed, it's about making the sacrifice for your kids. And so, even though you're no longer under the same roof all the time, you gotta consider your schedule. You gotta consider, um, your finances. Like you mentioned, um, you gotta budget for the kids now you gotta do certain things to make sure they're still happy.
Mm-hmm. Because you're, you know. Okay. Yeah. I, you can't get out here and be like, oh, I'm, I'm single now. I'm gonna live my life. No, you still got two little ones, or, or, well, that's in my case, but you know, people got more or whatever. You still got kids to raise. Mm-hmm. You know, it's not about just your freedom, it's about you still gotta raise kids, you still gotta be a responsible adult.
So the way that it adjusts your stability is okay. Maybe I'm not taking care of a household of mommy, daddy, you know, kids. Now I still gotta take, make, take care of my house, but I still have to maintain and take care of my kids, whether they're with me or not. So even the nights they're not with me, I still have to save that money because when they're there, they want to go out.
Especially my kids. They want to, [00:19:00] and that's my fault. I spoiled them a lot. So it is hard for me to tell them no sometimes. Mm-hmm. So, you know, I gotta save my money 'cause, you know, but. Yeah, that the, the way the finances and the stability changes is you gotta, you gotta now zero in on your kids. You gotta make sure that they don't slack for nothing.
Because even though those days that you miss, you gotta make up for that, you know? And so that, that's really, that's really where it impacted me.
Lawrence : And lemme tell you, I know about the two kids. That ain't cheap. Yeah. Like, you know, growing up McDonald's was a treat. These girls talk about, daddy, can we go get some sushi?
Yeah. I didn't have sushi until I was in college. Yeah. And then my oldest, oh daddy, I really love crab legs. Yeah. What? I didn't know what a crab black was. These kids, until I got 'em all this, these, they the same kids different.
Dennis: They different. Totally
Lawrence : different.
Dennis: Just like you said. Yeah. McDonald's. Nah. They want.
Firebirds we was at, matter of fact, we went to cheesecake Factory last night. Mm-hmm. Just because I had to go to the Apple store, or I thought I did, at least. [00:20:00] Mm-hmm. And so I mentioned it to 'em and that was the first thing, oh well we gonna be in Crabtree. Can we go to kill the Cheesecake Factory?
And I'm like, well, we out here anyway. So, but yeah, I mean, you know, but because of who they are and how they are, I like to treat 'em with certain things and make sure they're happy. So, you know. It, it is all good with me.
Lawrence : Oh, 100%. I'm, Hey, I am with you on that one. 'cause you know, like my daughters, when they say they want to do something, I do my best to try to make it happen.
Dennis: Right.
Lawrence : Like a true story last year they was like, dad, I, we wanna go to Legoland. Mm-hmm. So I did everything I could to make sure Legoland happened. Right. So I, I can truly say, and I agree with was sometimes, and I say I probably overdid it at times because I wanted. Them to be happy. Right? 'cause I knew what I was dealing with and I don't know how, what, how kids feel when they go through divorce.
Right? You know, mommy Daddy's not together anymore. And unfortunately some kids internalize it and they end up living a life a certain way because they didn't get help. They need it. So for me. Also, I had 'em both see [00:21:00] therapists because you don't know what the kids are going through and I can't articulate it Right.
To say, Hey, you know, little one, how do you feel? How you feel about mommy and dad? I don't know how to articulate it. So I I had 'em both See therapists, they both are good, thank God. Mm-hmm. But I believe that's all very important because I don't want them being 40 dealing with issues from when they were 10.
Dennis: Right, right. You don't want that. Nah, you don't want that at all. And I do the same thing. I. My little one. She's, she's just happy go lucky. But my oldest, you know, I talk to her very often. Um, I try to have, you know, serious conversations. 'cause I wanna know how she feels. I wanna know certain things of what's going on with her mentally.
Um, I ask her, are there questions you want to ask me? Is there anything you want to, I try to keep those open lines of communication because I don't want her to internalize so much that. Just like you say, like it affects her in our adult life. And that's what we deal with a lot of times, like unresolved issues from childhood.
Mm-hmm. To now you're a grownup [00:22:00] and you don't know how to manage yourself. You don't know how to properly handle a crisis or properly engage in adult conversation or conflict resolution. That's the word I was looking for. You don't know how to probably do that. 'cause your life growing up has been, ain't nothing but turmoil.
Mm-hmm. And when you don't grow up and mature. That spills over, you know, and, and so I don't want that, I don't want that dealt with with my kids, you know? Mm-hmm. I want them to make sure that they know that their dad loves them, that, you know, nothing's their fault, you know, life. It is what it is, and I want them to know the truth.
I, I, I try to keep everything open and honest with them. I want them to know how they, I wanna know how they feel about certain things, so I ask questions. I, I have open, you know, conversations with them.
Lawrence : Yeah, that's very important. And likewise, I do the same thing with my girls. A hey, how you feeling? You know, check-ins right.
You right, you, you know, this is the new reality. So you guys good. How you guys feeling? Or sometime I'll hear little different things. Um, especially my youngest [00:23:00] one. I'm like, no, mommy, daddy no longer together.
Dennis: Right.
Lawrence : You know? Right. So those, having those conversations, because. Yeah, having those conversations with them is so very, very important.
Dennis: Right.
Lawrence : So, and I'm pretty sure you probably have the same answer that I have for this. Why did you have to rebuild first? And My answer was, first I had to rebuild myself because, you know, I can't be bleeding on people that didn't cut me.
Dennis: Mm-hmm.
Lawrence : You know, so that's where I went. And sought out both spiritual and natural help.
Once again, therapy. And my pastor, you know, he has this amazing program that talks about the healing process so you don't go continue the cycle of hurt, right? Because things gonna happen in life, but you go from the cycle of hurt to the cycle of healing, right? So as things happen, you heal along the way.
So yeah, that was my thing. I had to rebuild myself because I'm no good for my daughters if I'm still broken. You know, I'm still, I'm bleeding on them. I'm going off on them, or I'm saying things in front of them that I shouldn't say because I hadn't healed first. Right. So that was my [00:24:00] first thing. And making sure as they, what they say put the mask on your face first.
You know, that was my thing. Mm-hmm. I had to put the mask on my face first. That way I could be a good dad to these young ladies.
Dennis: Right. That's good. Lemme put it this way. Um. And again, I'm, I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm not saying anything to be funny. I'm not saying anything to be rude, ignorant.
No, none of that for me. Um, I, I guess I took a different spin on my divorce in a way. Um, and I ain't gonna get into the details of what I mean with that right now. But for me, um, for me it wasn't so much rebuilding. Um, for me it was. Getting over hurdles. Right. And, and, and so for me, it, it didn't take like the divorce tore me down and this, that, and the third.
I've been going through struggle ever since throughout the marriage. Right. For me, divorce was just another [00:25:00] obstacle. it wasn't something life shattering to me. Mm-hmm. It was just a, just another hurdle. So when the divorce came, and I was surprised with it, and the whole nine, we worked through the process, blah, blah, blah.
For me, life continued and. My, again, my focus really? Oh, so even at the time to be real, even at the time I literally just started grad school pursuing my Master's of Divinity. Um, that's during that same timeframe. So my time was dedicated to my school and work, you know, then you, now you got divorce in the midst, so.
You know, it, it can seem like a crisis, of course. And of course they're the normal person that it is, but to me it was honestly a hurdle. Mm-hmm. So I never really looked at it as like. This tore down, now I gotta rebuild. I, I think the unfortunate situation was like, okay, now I gotta scramble to find somewhere to live.
If that makes sense. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and now I gotta get a lo I don't know nothing about [00:26:00] divorce. Divorce wasn't heavy in my family. Like, you know what I mean? So even when I bought this to my parents getting some advice, nobody knows about this. This wasn't heavy in my family. So I had to look some stuff up and I, it, for me, it was just extra work.
But I worked through it, right? And so, like I said, it wasn't really so much me rebuilding. It was me moving on. It was me just moving on. It was me, um, just getting over another hurdle and just, you know, making it happen. Letting life continue because I didn't want it to be anything that stopped me. I wanted to actually stop grad school.
I remember I was talking to my professor about it, or just to pause it at least 'cause it was too much going on. And you know, he was telling me like, . And, and, but so many words he was telling me like, you can't, would you stop ministry just because something was happening in your life or you gonna give up on God?
Like he put the whole, you know, he was, he, he did it in a clean way. And me being who I am and how I am, those are the type of talks I need because if you challenge me. The way I am, I'm gonna kick it in the fifth gear. I'm like, oh yeah, okay. So you ain't gonna look at me like I'm a quitter or look at me any what type of way.
So I [00:27:00] did it, put a fire under me, and I kept, so what I did was shift my focus, if anything. Mm-hmm. So I was like, okay, well we gonna get this settled. I got my apartment, I got this, I got that, and I made it happen, man. With the grace of God, I made it happen. But I didn't look at it as like a rebuilding period.
I looked at it as like, just moving on, you know? It was, it was freedom for me to be honest. It was and, and it was liberating. It, it sucked. It was unfortunate, but again, like I said, it was just a moving on period for me. So it wasn't really so much rebuilding. It was more about adjusting to the new norm.
Lawrence : Okay. Alright, cool. Okay, so now let's talk about investing in yourself. So, um, for me, um, I had invested myself through different podcasts. Um, one of the things that really helped me out was the power of positive thinking. Mm-hmm. You know, because for me it was definitely a mind shift because. For me, lemme tell me.
And Guy had some conversations in Walmart parking lot, let me tell you, because like I was so mad at God. Yeah. Like [00:28:00] me, like yeah, we was, yeah. I was so mad at God because I'm like, God, I go to church. I'm faithful. I'm not abusive to my wife. I haven't, I've never cheated on my wife. I. Like, God, I'm going through this.
Yeah. You know? And then I'm like another thing it was I've, what made it even worse was I saw people who I know was cheating on their wife. Yeah. I know. Who was doing dirty to their wife. Yeah. And they was still together. Right. So I'm like, God, what, so something ain't right here. I thought we were boys.
You know, I'm interacting in ministry, I'm preaching, I'm teaching, I'm doing all these different things. And then. Another thing that really shook my faith was we were doing the miracle month thing. Mm-hmm. You know, planting your seed. Right. Right. So it's like I was sowing my seed. I was like, yes, my marriage is gonna turn around and it actually got worse.
Dennis: Mm-hmm.
Lawrence : So eventually, you know, I had to realize, and it had to come to Jesus moment, it's like you can sow, but other person still have free will. You know, if she doesn't want this marriage to work, it's not gonna work. You can sow till the cows go home.
Dennis: Right.
Lawrence : So I had to come to the [00:29:00] realization that, you know what, just because I wanted.
Doesn't mean that she wants it and what's gonna happen is what's gonna happen. Right? So I had to realize that. And then someone said something really good to me, which people have heard before, is, you know, one person trashed another person's treasure. Mm-hmm. So I'm like, you know what? Somebody's gonna treasure me one day.
And then also, um, what one person. How did I word it? It was, I heard it in the car when I was coming here. Like, well, one person won't accept, another person will celebrate, or something to that effect, right? So that's how I kind of got through these different things. And then also, um, there was one thing, I even got a tattooed on my arm now where it says, um, focus on your roses and not on your thorns.
Dennis: Mm-hmm.
Lawrence : Because I was constantly thinking about the thorns that was going through, which made things just horrible. So combination of podcasting. Getting therapy, therapy, therapy. Therapy. Yeah. That helped me out a lot to get through this. Um, for yourself, how did you investigate? Oh, going to the gym.
[00:30:00] Going to the gym. I went to the gym on a regular basis because those type things helped me get through what I was going through.
Dennis: Right.
Lawrence : So for yourself, was there anything that you did and for investing in yourself?
Dennis: So, yeah, a lot came to my mind while he was, while he was even speaking. Mm-hmm.
So, um, I hear people, you know, often say, say that they going through this type of thing, that they do get angry with God or they lose their faith, or they're figuring this out. I'm such a good person. Be honest with you, I didn't go through that phase. I didn't have that phase. Um, and you know, I'm gonna keep saying it because I don't know how to, how the clips gonna be chopped up.
I'm gonna keep saying it over and over again. I don't say anything to take a jab in my ex or anything like that, or, or our situation. But, um, again, for me. As much as, as much as the divorce honestly sucked because I thought the same way
I thought he was gonna turn this around. Right. I remember even when I got the papers and I got, you know, I was actually headed to Philly. 'cause my brother and my sister was getting ordained, and I remember I [00:31:00] getting the papers. I took it home, explained, had this conversation with my parents and, you know, all types of stuff.
And even when I, I called I, I remember calling her, talking to her and whatever. I'm like, is this sure what you want to do? Like, and I even remember one last conversation where I tried to, you know, kind of have with her, you know, and I was telling her like, I don't think we should do this. I, I really, I, I said, I think we should, you know, work it out, figure it out.
I don't think we should do this. She literally looked at me and told me like, it's no more. She said something like, it's no more we, it's you and I, or something, something to that effect. For me, that was the sign off, right? But I even at that point, I still wasn't giving up on it. I wasn't, um, and I, I remember actually preached on this was I didn't realize, um, the humanity of Christ until this particular moment.
And when I say that, I remember praying and I felt. I felt a heavy weight that I've never felt before. Um, I remember crying. I [00:32:00] remember just being. Hurt. Hurt. Like I was, I remember, like, I even think about it now. I, I've, it felt like such a wild weight to me and I'm just praying and I'm believing, God, you gonna turn this around?
We gonna have a great testimony. We are not gonna get divorced, blah, blah. Like, I'm thinking like, life is, yo, I said, this is just something else. You know, our lives gonna be better. We gonna come out on top on this. Like, I really believed that while I was praying, but I felt this heaviness and this weight.
And when I said I, I thought about the humanity of Christ because. I had a, a, a, a weird, I don't wanna say weird when I talk about crisis in, in religion, but I had this strange or different, different is a better word. I had this different feeling even after praying, where it realized that no matter how hard I was praying for this turnaround, right?
I had to realize things ain't going to change. And it wasn't like saying my prayer wasn't vain. It made me realize that as hard as Christ was praying in Gethsemane [00:33:00] saying, father, let this cup pass. But if you know, if not, let your will, not my will be done. And when you read the scripture, you feel that he was so burdened down that.
He, um, I can't think of the disease or, or the medical term, but he started bleeding through his sweat, which was an actual thing because of the stress levels were high and his blood vessels were breaking. And, you know, he was crying, bleeding, sweating because he realized his time is now come. Now he was born.
He knows his purpose. He knows everything but. Now if Christ is facing the reality of this situation mm-hmm. That's his human side. He's no longer, um, and I'm careful how I'm saying this. I just wanna make my point, but he's no longer the miracle worker. He's no longer, um, you know, the, the, the great Jesus that we worshiped now he's, he's human.
You know, he shows us, and I, I feel good saying this because it really helped me. He now shows his human side. So he shows us that, yeah, like, just how the scripture says. He, he, he took [00:34:00] off that, that majesty to come down and count himself, or he counted it not robbery to come down and counted himself as a equal.
And you read that scripture and you think of this, you think of this, but it's not until you're in a situation where you realize and really respect the humanity of Christ, like man. Jesus felt how I felt. That's that, to me, that was a connection. Mm-hmm. You know, that's why I'm taking a long way. 'cause to me that was a connection.
That that's why he, he, the way he felt in Gethsemane was how I felt in that back office, praying over this stuff. Because I did, I felt. Through my prayer as I'm saying, God, I know you're gonna turn this around. I know you're gonna change. But when I got off from that prayer, I remember I was about to go to bed.
I was getting ready for a shower or whatever. I just felt it like, it's not gonna change. I felt it. And that's when the story of Gethsemane happened. Because as hard as Christ prayed, Christ being who he is, he still died. He still took a beating. He still went through and accomplished his mission. Right?
And it's because of his [00:35:00] accomplishment of that mission that we're here today, that we're saved, that we through his sacrifice. So even the things he didn't want to go through and the torture that he suffered and the the pain that he felt, it all still had a purpose. And because of that, that's what gave me peace.
And so even though you can do right, just like you said. Other person has free will, so you can treat me as as great as you want to, but if I don't like you, I don't like you, nothing's going to change that you don't have control over that. That's something that's, I also had to learn. I don't have control over the other person.
I can only do. What I can do for my, do, do myself, what I can control. And that's just me. So what I had to really do in investing in myself, and I, I, I'm answering your question, but just in a long way, was that I had to shift my focus. I really, um, I preached on this too about, um, the benefits of affliction because, you know, in the scripture of Psalm, um.
Psalm 1, 19 71. It was good for me that I was [00:36:00] afflicted that I may learn your statues. It wasn't until, of course, I prayed. Of course, I studied the scriptures, but it wasn't until I was going through this where I really had to lean and depend on Christ. I really had to lean, depend on God. I had to study more.
I had to stay focused. I had to shift my mindset because I felt myself getting angry. I felt myself just like. Dealing with this in an unhealthy way. And so the biggest thing of investing for myself was definitely praying more, studying the scriptures more. Um, I did get myself into therapy, so I'm doing that.
Um, and so, you know, it's just a lot of of course I go to the gym. Um. And so it is a lot of things that I do to keep my mind occupied, especially the nights when I don't have my girls. I'm focused on school. I'm chasing this PhD now, so back in school. So I'm focused on school and when I don't, I wanna keep my mind occupied on positive things, and that's what I do to reinvest in myself.
Lawrence : Okay. Soon to be doctor.
Dennis: Yeah, man. Like can't just sit home bust so much. You know? I was like, you know what, I might as well finish it out, you know, if I got these [00:37:00] couple days off, you know, I try to just, you know, do my schoolwork and stay focused.
Lawrence : I don't know. I might get my doctorate. I don't know. I got a Master's now.
Duh. Yeah, you might. You might as well, right? You
Dennis: might as well finish it out, bro.
Lawrence : We'll see. Some people should have been trying to get me into it. We'll see. You
Dennis: might, you might as well finish it out.
Lawrence : Oh, okay. So invested in your future life after divorce. There's still hope. So one of the things that I wanna talk about is as it relates to that piece of the puzzle, there's still hope, fellas, just because of divorce happened doesn't mean that your life is over, right?
That, that stage may be over, but your life is not over. Don't give up if you so desire marriage again. Position yourself first Hill and then position yourself to find another young lady that fits what you're looking for. That, you know, I, I can say, um, I have a family member. And honestly for him the divorce was the best thing that ever happened to him.
'cause his second wife is amazing.
Dennis: Mm.
Lawrence : I mean, I ain't saying that just because we [00:38:00] related, but she gonna see this as she know what I'm talking about. But her second wi his second wife was amazing for him. Yeah. I mean, it drew him closer to God. They have two lovely young ladies that they've raised together.
So just because the first one didn't. Treasure you. Doesn't mean the second one won't.
Dennis: Right.
Lawrence : So I encourage men, Hey, if you so choose the desire. 'cause some people are like, look, I'm done. But if you so choose to get married again first hill, and then put yourself in position to find that young lady that will treasure what you have to offer.
Dennis: Right.
Lawrence : Um, do you have anything as relates to that?
Dennis: Um. I didn't give up. I would say this. I give, um, I did especially marriage and I didn't give up on women. You know what I mean? Let, let, lemme make that clear. Okay. I ain't give on women. All right. But I definitely gave up on the whole marriage aspect. Um, I was more like, you know what?
I can't, I can't see myself doing it again. Um. It was because it was really, my situation was really that bad, you know? And so even sometimes thinking about certain [00:39:00] things, it would be something random. Just thinking about certain things will gimme that anxiety where I'm like, there's no way I wanna bring somebody else into my home.
Especially my home. The house I live now, beautiful house is quiet. It is peaceful. I love it. And I be thinking of sometimes like, you know. Yeah, like there's part of me that want to get married again, but then you think like, yo, what if things are good? And then it turns out how I used to be. And then you start like, there's no way.
And so my mindset, you know, used to go there. It did. And, and so I. I would say the same thing is definitely, definitely heal. And I'm gonna talk about, heal the word, heal a little bit too, but definitely heal, um, seek therapy, get the help that you need. Don't just hop back into something, you know, I, I wouldn't advise that either.
Don't just hop back into something. Um. I was going to say something, but I'm not that's why I stopped looking. But don't just hop back into something, you know? Definitely take your time to just [00:40:00] reflect, um, review it, you know, review what you could have done better. There's a whole lot that I can say that I could have handled so many situations better.
I. Um, I, there's a lot of things that I know if God does bless me to be in position to get married again on how I'm even going to start out. Some things that's gonna be just like, made clear from top. Like it's just a different approach that I would take to it this time around if, you know, if, if, if that was in the cards for me.
But, um, but definitely do that now when I say heal. Um, the word, so, the word heal for me, um, is it when, when it comes to me, um. I think a lot of people would tell me that, like, oh, you gotta heal, you gotta heal, you gotta heal. And I think the words started to get annoying to me because I don't think people was listening to my full story.
Um, and I'm not gonna say that I, I don't have areas that I don't need healing in or something like that. That's not what I'm saying. Um, but my [00:41:00] overshadowed, um, or my overshadowing. Issue really isn't my past. It is about how things are continuing to go. So when I am upset about something or, you know, and that's why I don't really talk to people too much anymore.
I, because that's all they would hear, they'd be like, oh. Well, you need to heal from this. Heal. And I'm like, you're, you're clearly not listening. You, you like, because you're still thinking I'm stuck in the past, in which I'm so far not. It's the things that I'm dealing with now as a residual from the past.
And one thing, um, because I had a therapist before. And we had a conversation, a couple conversations, and I was explaining it to him. And he was honestly the first person out of everybody I always talked to that really did thoroughly understand what I was, you know, talking about. And of course, he's a licensed therapist, so of course he was gonna get it.
And I'm like, yes. He was able to literally articulate to me what I've been telling other people that everybody's like, oh, you need to hear from the mirrors. You need to, and I'm like, it's not about the past bro. It's about what I'm going through now, the residual [00:42:00] of that. But anyway, but now. The bigger root of what I know, um, of what I know that does trigger me is what I'm really dealing with.
And that's the feeling of regret. Um, you know a again, I'm gonna go too deep into this, but it is, that's an overshadowing feeling that I definitely have. Um. That's, I think that that regret is what triggers me more than anything because it's always there and you know, it, it's like a, a domino effect because it could be something that happens and you're thinking about this and you thinking about that.
You are like, yo, it just leads back to the regret of this and regret of that. And it's just, that's where my root is. And so that's what I'm really digging up and that's what me and my therapist now is really working through is how to combat. The regret. And so, um, but yeah, definitely [00:43:00] before hopping into a new relationship or anything like that, you know, definitely be, um, prayerful about.
Your next move be prayerful about not just saying, oh, I wanna get married again. I'm looking for a wife. Get yourself together, you know, um, be prayerful about who you are. Find out ways you can change, find, like, focus on yourself, making yourself better. And because that's always been my thing. Not only reviewing where I could have done better, but also saying, how can I get better?
Because if God does position me into to being a husband again, I wanna make sure I'm right. You know, not so much my partner being right, but I wanna make sure I'm right too.
Lawrence : That's good. I like the part about making sure you are right first. Mm-hmm. Because see, when you come into marriage, it is supposed to be, you are there to make their life better.
Dennis: Right.
Lawrence : But if you're broken and she's broken, you got two broke people. Yes. You know, it's not the thing of. Two broke people make a whole No, no, no, no, no. Is two whole people build each other up. Right. And what I'm weak at, she could be [00:44:00] strong at and vice versa. So yeah, definitely, definitely focus on building yourself so you can prepare to be what she needs to be.
Right. You know? So you can be that priest, that prophet, that provider, and that protector, because even not those things, then you can't. You gonna have, you gonna go to the same road again, right? Because you are still broken and you're gonna bleed on her. And she didn't have anything to do with Right. What the last person did.
You know? It goes back to, I think, a story that Pastor tells about there was a man, the man or woman, they were married or they were dating, and the man said, I'm going to Blockbuster to get a movie. Well. Every time he went to Blockbuster, he was cheating on her.
Dennis: Oh, wow.
Lawrence : And right. And he, and she found out that he was cheating, so they broke up.
Then she started dating a new guy. A new guy was like, Hey, I'm gonna Blockbuster. He literally was gonna blockbuster, but because she hadn't healed from what the first guy was doing, going to Blockbuster was a sign that saying, I I'm cheating. Yeah. It was a trigger [00:45:00] and he didn't know anything about it. So make sure you clean your, your landfills out because people.
Can't walk around on eggshells because you have landfills that you haven't cleaned up.
Dennis: Absolutely. Those triggers. Right. The other person's not gonna know. Right. You know, and so that is a you thing.
Um, it was some stuff that's, that was triggering me, um, about, about the person I was dating. And, um, I would bring it up. But what I really realized was it had nothing to do with her. It had to do with me. It was just the way I was seeing it and once I really realized that, like, I don't, I don't bring it up anymore.
I don't, you know, do certain things, but those triggers, um, you, you gotta deal with it. It'll take time to deal with, but you gotta deal with it and understand that you're dealing with somebody new. You can't put that, that type pressure on them because of your past. You guys understand that [00:46:00] you're dealing with somebody new.
So Yeah. Like if you got cheat on here, blockbuster, I'm gonna Blockbuster. Yeah. That's gonna make me skeptical. Like, all right, what's that? Blockbuster. But we going together, you know what I mean? Like we going in a movie together, you know, that's the answer to that. But, um, but don't be in a position to where.
You hear Blockbuster and you flip it out this man, or flip it out, this woman, and they don't know what's going on. Now they gonna think you're crazy and you might ruin your relationship. You know what I mean? And that's something I had to think about because it was certain things. Um. It was certain things.
I ain't gonna say it made me mad, but it made me feel a certain type of way because it was so relatable to what I've been through in my in the marriage. And, and so it was relatable to that context and I, I kept figuring out like, why would that make me mad? That was another thing. I started examining myself, you know what I mean?
Mm-hmm. I was really at hurt. It was more about being like, why does that make me upset? But I realized once I really calmed down real well, I calmed down. But once I sat back and really realized. Because I mentioned this to her a couple [00:47:00] times, but once I realized, I was like, it has nothing to do with her, like the, the situation has.
And I really realized this. I was like, oh, this is why it makes me mad. Like it took me some time, but I realized it, and I don't care anymore when it happens, but I'm like, oh, this is why it makes me mad. And so yeah, you gotta self evaluate these things. And, and if I can just one more minute, um, because. I'm, I'm a work through person, right?
I don't, I don't sit back and wait for everything to be perfect. 'cause I don't believe in everything's gonna be perfect. I believe things gonna line up and the right things are gonna fall into place, but I'm gonna still work through person, right? So I'm not saying like, just because your marriage failed, that you have to sit on the sideline forever or sit on the side like, you know, say you meet a friend or say you meet somebody or whatever, you know, while you're going through your process.
You don't want to, you don't want so much trauma bond, but you, you, it's nothing wrong with meeting somebody and, and having a friend or, you know, seeing where it goes or seeing where it leads to do [00:48:00] it. Right. Of course. But there's nothing wrong with that. I wouldn't say like, you meet her in Walmart today and she's your girlfriend tomorrow.
You know, I'm saying that. But if you got a friend and y'all, you know. Bond over stuff and you know, you while you're working through, because you're not going to be a hundred percent, or if you're waiting to be a hundred percent, you might be losing some years here, right? How about helping each other out?
Work through your process together, do it in a proper manner to where, um, you know, you're not just just looking for a rebound, but maybe you meet somebody or maybe you just, you know, while you're still in your process, why you're still healing, why you're going through, because I believe. I'm speaking from, speaking from personal personal experience.
I do believe that, um, people can help you through your process. Mm-hmm. And if I was so quick to shut people out in which I did for a while, I did become that type of person. But what I started to develop is like. Maybe these bonds are to help me out, you know what I mean? And so even though, [00:49:00] yeah, I'm in a work in progress and maybe I'm doing this, maybe I'm doing that, but maybe it's people there that's gonna help you through it.
Get you out the house a little bit. Go on a date, do this, do that, do it in the right way, but. Still work on yourself, but don't shut yourself out from everything. You might be missing your blessing. And so that, that would be another thing to me in your process of healing is, you know, definitely just don't be like, oh, I'm healing so I'm gonna just shut everybody out.
I don't wanna talk to any women or none. Like that was never me. Okay? Like healing or not, okay? I'm not gonna just be, I'm not gonna not just talk women. You know what I mean? So that was my thing. And, and so when you figure out your triggers, you figure out what you gotta deal, what you're dealing with internally, make sure you dig into your root, what makes you upset, what triggers you and why.
Lawrence : Sounds good. Alright, Denniston we winding down? Sure. Any last words, what would you tell a man right now that's either going through divorce, being through divorce, and then trying to figure this out? What's the last words you would [00:50:00] give him?
Dennis: Last words you gave you all that. Okay. A man. Let's see. All right, so if a brother's going through divorce, right?
I don't wanna say it in a way that's, that is like cliche. So where I'm like, just pray about it or seek the scriptures, you know? Of course, yes. That's my premise. But what you wanna do, and I believe, um, elder Flowers mentioned this earlier, was what you wanna do is get a good group of men. Not just any man, not even just your close friends, but you wanna get a solid group of Christian men because the first thing your Caral brothers wanna do, they wanna take you out to the strip club.
They wanna take you out to try to get you right. Try to get your mind off. Do something, do this, do that. Get you into some crazy mess that's gonna mess with your mind. This is not the time for that. This is the time where you need serious stability. Um, you know, I, I, I am who I am. I can't get away from the scriptures.
I, I think of a situation like that as another storm, right? And what happened in the middle of the storm was [00:51:00] Peter saw Christ coming, walking on the storm, right? And so when he gets off the boat, he's walking, doing the same thing as Christ did. But the moment he took his eyes off of Christ and focused on the storm, he what began to drown.
Mm-hmm. Right. And so, you know, reading that scripture, I can say personally, until I got really mature reading that scripture, I'm thinking he hopped off the boat, take one, two steps, and then just drown in reality. Instead he walked on water. Mm-hmm. Right? So he might've made a little trek there. Right. He might've got off the boat doing the impossible.
You know, it, it didn't have to be the immediate right until he took his eyes off of Christ.
Lawrence : Mm-hmm.
Dennis: In the midst of this storm. You still gotta have your faith to get off that boat. To go through your divorce, do what you gotta do, but in the while you are doing the impossible of walking on water in the middle of your storm, stay focused on Christ.
That is the only way you're going to get out this. That's the only way I got out of it. That's the only way I got over it. Right? And stay focused on Christ. And even if you do [00:52:00] drown, even if you do begin to slip, even if you do begin to fall, just call on him because the scripture says even when Peter called on him.
Christ immediately. He didn't wait for him. He said, he didn't say, Peter, you should have just stayed focused. He immediately pulled him up. So as long as you have Christ in your life, you gonna be all right. That's, that's all I would say.
Lawrence : And I, I echo that sentiment. Let God be first.
Dennis: Right?
Lawrence : You know, um, we used, look back in the book of Jeremiah and Jeremiah 2011, they said, oh, you know, I know the thoughts, I think towards you things thoughts of peace and not of evil.
You do know they were in bondage when it was written, right?
Dennis: Absolutely. Yes.
Lawrence : So even though you're going through a tough stage in your life, God still has a plan. Trust God's plan. God has a good plan and everything is gonna be all right.
Dennis: Absolutely.
Lawrence : Thank you for checking into Real Talk. There's more episodes coming.
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