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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
A Husband's Journey With Breast Cancer with Rob Bremer
00:00
Hey guys, welcome back to the podcast with Restoration Project. This is Chris Bruno and I am joined by my good friend and co-pilot, Jesse French. Hey, Jesse. Hey Chris. Good to see you. Be with you. Yeah. Good to be with you too. Guys. We are excited to have our good friend, Rob Bremer back on the show. You heard us before talk about some of the challenges that he faced in his life and career with his wife over the course of the last year.
00:27
and all of that. And we're back because there's more to unpack here because it wasn't just life and career that he was walking through in the moment. There were a couple other things happening. So Rob, welcome back. Thanks for saying yes to being back on the show. Thank you. Great to be here with two phenomenal, awesome guys. Thanks. Aw shucks. Aw shucks. Well, Rob, in the previous time you were with us, you shared
00:54
some of what was happening for you in your job and that you had been at for 17 years and all that. So thank you for that. Take us in a little bit deeper to some of the other dynamics that hit you at the same time. Yeah, yeah, as we were talking about that last time and that right as I was leaving or about to leave my company, I think I'd given notice and that was happening. My wife, Karen, was diagnosed with breast cancer, right? Oh, middle of that.
01:24
So that was like, oh boy, what now? What does that mean? You know, just hearing those words. And we were on a trip, I was backpacking with my boys and I knew that she had a biopsy and we were waiting for results and then we left. So we were in the back country out of communication for a while.
01:52
And we were coming back in. So I texted her. I'm like, I'm thinking about this the whole time I'm on the trip. Like, Hey, what were the, you know, results on your biopsy? What did it say? No response. She didn't respond. And so, cause she didn't want to tell me over a text message, but I, but I knew immediately, I knew right away, like if it was good, she would have just said. It was nothing. Yeah. Cause that's what they say. We're like, well, we're just seeing these things. We're going to.
02:20
We do some biopsies. It's probably nothing, but we'll just do this to be sure. Well, it was, it was, it was something. So that began that whole like, what does this mean? Is this, you know, at first you didn't like, you don't know much of anything. You just hear breast cancer and you're like, you, you know, I immediately, she, I mean, you go to the worst, like, Oh boy, here's this long journey in front of us with, we don't know what the.
02:49
what the outcome is going to be. It's going to be, yeah, for sure. Those kinds of conversations. A, I'm sorry you didn't get information right away when you asked for it. And then B, I'm glad you didn't get information that she'd kept it as a conversation between the two of you. We had a conversation. It was like driving down the mountain with this, with all of that. Right. But still you were driving down the mountain with this wonder, this dread, this uh-oh kind of moment. So.
03:18
Knowing, knowing, not knowing, but knowing. Yeah. So Rob, tell us a little bit about like what that journey, you know, maybe some of the practicals sure that maybe can kind of provide some of the, the scaffolding of what the journey was, but particularly like, what was that like for you as a husband, you as a man? Yeah, I think it, one of the things that, you know, looking back on this for me is one sort of being okay with
03:47
This is about me too. It's my wife's body. It's my wife's diagnosis that, you know, I need to be there to support her. Like we all would be, right? We support our spouses through whatever the medical illness or crisis is. And so that was my role, is I need to be here for her. This isn't about me. And so that was a struggle. Like realizing that there's parts of this
04:16
actually do, maybe it's not about me, but certainly impact me. Yeah. Why? I'm so glad you brought that up, Rob. How did that get played out? Because I think that's such a valid point. And I would imagine the default response, right? To news like that or an event like that is, it makes so much sense to say, look, this, this is my wife's journey, right? I am secondary. I'm, you know, I'm not even kind of part of the arc of it. And so like.
04:44
How did you realize that? Like, what did that awareness, how did that come to be? It feels really, really needed. I think, you know, early on there wasn't, like, I would say an awareness of that. It was like, well, I'm the researcher. I'll, you know, what is breast cancer? And what is this, you know, the specific diagnosis and the big long word doesn't matter, right? What is that? And how severe is that? And what is stage whatever? And what is...
05:14
grade, whatever. And so that's kind of the mode that where I fell into, mostly because that's where I felt comfortable where I felt like I could, you know, there's a lot in this, I can't control that's like I can do that. I can contribute in that way. And it was really where, you know, I can remember a number of like key times like Karen asking me, how are you
05:44
Well, I'm fine. How are you doing? Right? Yeah. Like discounting my own heart in that, like, what are you like? I'm okay. I'm I don't have cancer. Like I'm fine. Right? Like, yeah. Why, why are you asking? But I think she had a better recognition than I did. Like this is having an impact on you. Right. And then all the decisions along the way that we had to make. If you were to say what the impact was on you, what would you say?
06:14
I would, I would say I feel like in important ways, and I'm still trying, I'm still coming to that because, you know, we were making decisions like, do you do a mastectomy or not? You know, she, she was, she was kind of at a stage where it wasn't clear that that had to be done, but it was a decent choice. Right. So we went through all of that and then the surgeries began and recovery. So I think it felt like there wasn't a lot of time.
06:44
think about what is the impact. And one of the key, they talk about reconstruction, you know, the, do the reconstruction and all of this kind of thing and nipple sparing surgeries. I'm like, Oh, that sounds good. That's good. Do that. And they're not really upfront with you. We're like, well, that's just cosmetic. You know, they're, they're not functional anymore. So the sensation that she had is gone. Right.
07:11
And so they cut, right. It makes sense now, but I didn't really understand that going in. They cut all the nerves. And so you just have there. It's a cosmetic reconstruction and what that means for us going forward. I think we're still like, what does that mean? What is, you know, being close? What is, what is having sex look like now? It's different. I think we're just like, it feels like we're beginning to be in a place where it's like, we can talk like.
07:41
She feels a bit more normal. Yeah. And so you can't really, when you're in the middle of recovering from surgery, it's kind of, you can't really talk about it. Doesn't feel like. I feel like you just brought up something really important, Rob, and that is that, you know, there's different cancer diagnoses. And so probably similar across the board of cancer diagnoses is, especially when it's your spouse, your wife. Yeah.
08:08
there's the moment of like, Oh no, like, am I going to lose her? What does this mean? What is the, you know, you talked about the stages and all that kind of stuff. How is this going to change just the fundamental fabric of our lives? And in the aspect of getting a diagnosis is as significant as a cancer diagnosis. But then there's the second level that if it is, you know, if it is like stomach cancer or
08:36
lung cancer or esophagus cancer, all of them have their own horrible kinds of aspects to them for sure. Right. Yeah. But what you just said, what does this mean for us in the engagement of husband and wife, if it is another body part that is not part of the sexual engagement between husband and wife, then it has little impact on the husband-wife relationship in the same way as something like this.
09:05
And imagine, you know, it's the same for women too, with regard to testicular cancer or prostate cancer or those kinds of things for men, right? It's the same, it'd be the same engagement. So I think it's important what you just named that her breasts are important to you too and important to us of our relationship. Now, if it had been something else, you know, skin cancer that you can cut out and whatever, that's important. I'm not dismissing the importance of it. Right.
09:34
it doesn't impact the level of the relational intimacy spaces that these diagnoses bring. Exactly. Man, that's so true. I don't think having one kidney or one lung would impact our sexual life together. Maybe a lung from a stamina standpoint or something. But yeah, you think about what's the outward symbol of womanhood?
10:03
What do we all see and recognize as a woman? It's her breasts, right? It's a visual, like, I know that's a woman by her figure. And now, yeah, I can look at her today and see that same thing visually. Cause what they can do with cosmetic surgery is astounding, but it's not the same. And for her too, like, and I think that's one of the areas where it's had a real impact on us, where there's a sense of, I don't feel.
10:33
as much of a woman as I did before this. Yeah. Part of my womanhood has been removed. It's gone. And so that's just, it feels right now, it's raw. It's raw for both of us because we're at the beginning of this. And it's, you know, one of the things that's been so helpful is a lot of times when I talk to people, they're like, oh, how's Karen?
11:03
And it's rare that someone then asks, well, how are you? And my sort of gut response is, well, I'm fine. But it catches me off guard. But it's been so refreshing when someone asks me, how am I doing in this? And a few men have gone through this as well with their wives. Like, hey, this is hard. And that's been super helpful. Because I think if you know, I wouldn't have had that same response.
11:32
having not gone through that myself. Which that feels so needed for people to ask you that, right? To have the awareness of what your experience is like, because I love that question because it seems to counter a word that you used early in our conversation of my role is that of contributor, right? Like I'm the researcher kind of settle into that role. And that question is, no, there's more of you to this process than your ability to understand stages of cancer.
12:02
There's more depth to this, right, than simply assisting your wife, of which that is good and needed and beautiful, right? But it is also how you are processing that. And so I feel like that, and even in how you describe that, Rob, of, you know, Karen being able to say really honestly and bravely, like, hey, I feel...
12:21
less of a woman because of that. To me, such brave words for her to be able to articulate that. And I feel like that only can exist when two people are stepping into this space as humans, right? As partners in reflecting around what the experience is like. And it's not the minimization of, oh, this is primarily about her. That your willingness to risk more than just being a contributor to this feels astounding and so important in really important ways. Yeah.
12:50
Yeah. It feels in some ways like you're overstating that, but that's, I have trouble accepting. Yeah. Thank you. And I think Jesse to take it even one step further and make you even more uncomfortable, Rob, we talked about like the difference of intimacy in the physical engagement, but I wonder if because the two of you have now been able
13:16
to enter into a different level of conversation around how it impacts her and how it impacts you, that the depth of your marital intimacy, your emotional connection, has a different trajectory. Because I think on one level it could have been, this was her issue, she got fixed, Dr. Ian, we're moving on. And now that there has been the interplay of the two of you as actual humans in,
13:45
deep intimate relationship in the raw core places of where you are. What does that actually mean for five years from now in the fabric of your marriage? Boy, yeah. Wow. Yeah. I think it means I'm thinking, what does that mean? Five years down the road. What does it mean today? I think in some sense, when being intimate, having sex with your spouse is easy.
14:13
it can kind of cover up some things, right? Because you feel close, right? And that even deeper intimacy may or may not really exist. Yeah. And so I think where it leads us is it's not all about the act of sex, intimacy, that's not, intimacy is much broader, much deeper than just that. Like that's a component of it, of course, and an important one.
14:43
I think. So I think as we, as we move forward, I think the, sounds weird in this, but the word that came to mind, the gift in this is that it requires us to work more and find other levels and other avenues for intimacy that will maybe enable us to overcome some of those sexual intimacy barriers that are now there. And in no doubt that will be a journey in many different levels.
15:13
of the physical, the relational, the emotional, the spiritual, the identity aspect of all of that. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Wow. Yeah. Like I said, it's still, this is raw. Like I can't, maybe we could do another one in that five year timeframe. Tell us all the wisdom you learned in the last five years. Yeah. Well, Rob, thank you for your willingness to offer the raw, the raw Rob.
15:40
and the real Rob of what you're walking through right now in the recovery. I mean, this was just how many months ago? Her surgery, her first surgery was in October and the second one was in January. So, okay. So just a few months ago. It's, it's, yeah. Wow. Wow. Man, thank you so much for being a part of the show again and for offering yourself and the rawness, like I said, and for you guys listening.
16:07
You know, I wonder what level of raw, what level of intimacy, what level of new Rob's invited you to. And if you can sit and kind of reflect on where some of these challenges that gut punch experience when you get that diagnosis, when you get that phone call that you've lost the job, whatever, like it's actually, I think what Rob is inviting us to, it's actually okay to be part of the equation. Yes.
16:35
the fix-it guy that needs to contribute, needs to find a way through, though that's helpful, that's not actually the depth of what it means to show up and bring the fullness of yourself. You get to be part of the equation and have it affect you too. So that's kind of what I'm taking away from it. Yeah, because that mentality is born out of a belief, right, that the forging of life is ongoing, right? It's not, hey, this only happens when it's.
17:03
you know, when these criteria are met or it's only when these big things happen, like it is an acknowledgement of, Hey, this is happening whether or not I choose to be aware of it. And so the willingness to be open and receptive to that. Yeah. Man, thanks for being on the show. Good to be with you today, Rob. You're welcome. Thank you so much. Thanks, Rob. Appreciate it, man. Talk to you later.