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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Architecting a New Path: Overcoming Doubt and Embracing Calling
00:00
Hey everybody, welcome to this week's episode of the Restorative Man podcast. This is Cody Buriff and my cohost is... Jesse French. There he is. Jesse French. How are you doing today? I'm good, Cody. Glad to be with you. Excited for what's in store. Good. Me too. I'm super excited, pumped about this one because we are interviewing a very good friend of mine. Michael Bowen from North Carolina. Yup. Good man.
00:29
So welcome to the podcast, Michael. Thank you guys. I'm glad to be here. Yeah. We're so glad to have you today on this episode. Particular. We wanted to check in with you focus on a particular conversation, particular topic in your life. Michael, I've known you for several years. You came on the backpacking trip, the journey backpacking trip. That's where we met and it's been a joy to get to know you. And as I've gotten to know you, we chat here and there. I know that you just, I don't know, maybe a decade ago, something like that did a career shift.
00:59
and started into architecture and you do a very kind of niche area of architecture. I would say that I love, I'm excited about. Would you want to tell everybody kind of what you're up to and how you got to that spot? Oh yeah, man. That's a big question. I think it's one that like my answer rolls into like figuring out and finding out how the Lord has actually created you and what he actually made you to do.
01:29
end up kind of with jobs and provide. And that's all cool, but there's a, there's an aspect of me and my story, my journey of like realizing the Lord actually created me to be an architect. And I fought that and ignored it and didn't pursue it until I was 40 years old. So I went back at 40 and got a four year degree, then a two year masters, and then worked with a couple, three or four big firms around here and.
01:57
Yeah, about two and a half years after graduation, I hung my own shingle and I had enough side hustles that I was like, all the advice is you got to have six months at least of income and payroll, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I don't think I'll ever have that, but I've got six months worth of work where the side hustle is lined up that I think that is just as good. So I'm not, my financial brain isn't fully developed, but it's all good. It's worked out.
02:27
Yeah. So in 2016, December of 2016, I, I launched my own, bought a 27 inch iMac and made an office in my house and sat there and started working and never looked back. So yeah, that was a gosh, what eight years ago now, eight years ago next month. Nice. Man, there's so much in what you just said. I'd love to ask Michael like.
02:53
Can you talk about this journey in pursuit of who you were made to be and a desire for putting words in your mouth, but some greater meaning and significance beyond just, you know, financial provision. How did you begin to recognize some of that deeper desire for that significance or dissatisfaction with where you're at? Like, what did some of that process look like for you as you were beginning to even consider possible shift? It was year after year after year.
03:23
After year, after year, as I got older, of wanting, realizing I hadn't done something that I really wanted to when I was younger. Because after high school, I was neck deep in surfing and skateboarding and partying and smoking and just had a lot of fun for a lot of years. But I kind of, I got into construction, so I was always in construction.
03:49
Every year I realized that I hadn't done what I really wanted to do. It was go to school for architecture. Like you knew that that was a thought in your head a bunch of years ago. Probably about when I was 15. Yeah. Wow. That was, it was something I was really interested in, but I obviously, I didn't have anybody guiding me or pushing me or encouraging me in that direction. It was just, you know, cause I grew up building with my dad and making things and obviously Legos and Lincoln logs and all the stuff that goes along with that.
04:18
As I got older, you know, the proverbial angel and devil on each shoulder. It's like, you know, the angels like, you can do it, go back. And the devil's like, you're too old. You have a family. You can't do that anymore. You that just let it go and no, you can do it. And every year it would kind of resurface and recycle. And finally, in the fall of 06, my company from Michigan had moved us.
04:48
to Charlotte, North Carolina to open up a sales office. And I just went to Shannon and was like, hey, I think we're gonna have to move again because I really wanna go back to school. I don't wanna take this to my grave as a regret that I never did. And at that point, the desire to do it was at its all time high. But with that, it was equally at its all time, like you can't do it. Like there's no way you can pull this off. You're too old.
05:18
You know, all that narrative. So she was totally behind me. And I was like, we are probably going to have to move again. I started looking up schools and UNC Charlotte was like eight miles down the road from me. So I applied and got accepted to UNC Charlotte. And then I applied to the school of architecture there and got accepted. And pretty much on my 40th birthday, I got accepted. And then in August of 07, you know, this 40 year old dude rolls in to
05:48
Freshman algebra, a bunch of 19 year olds. I almost walked out. I almost was like, man, I can't do this. I feel so out of place. But I persevered, so I wanted it really bad. And I was just a horrible student. Not a horrible student, I'm incredibly right brain. I'm all left, I'm all right brain. So the creativity, the experiential, the adventure.
06:15
You know, school was all about memorization and like nobody knew. I didn't even know it until I was an adult that I'm dyslexic with numbers. So I was just a really poor student, my whole academic career until I went back to school as an adult and I ended up graduating with a 4.0. So, you know, that's pretty cool to like know who you are, know how you learn. And like that atmosphere, the process was open to how.
06:45
I wanted to do it. It wasn't just, you got to do it this way. So that was a big deal to go back. And the cool thing is the company that moved me down to Charlotte to start like this, I started in Oh seven August of Oh seven, the economy tanked at Oh eight through 12, the company that moved me down here kind of went out of business and shut down all their external branches and closed everything out. Shannon had gone to work for some.
07:14
dudes at church that had a real estate company. And at the time they specialized in foreclosures and it wasn't a big thing. So the economy tank, she's already working for a company that is way ahead of everybody else with foreclosures for that four years, five years, four years, five years. The Lord pulled me out of the economy, the economy tank, put my wife in a job that was doing the things of the economy. Like they were, you know, with all the foreclosures and all that horrible stuff. And
07:44
You know, I graduated in 12, the minute everything started rebounding and, you know, immediately got a job and, you know, never looked back. So just like a lot of protection, a lot of provision, you know, stepping out in faith and yeah, it's really, it was a long five years, but I, I super enjoyed it. You know, it was fun to watch all the, all the young kids like gravitate to me for some reason, like for advice.
08:12
Like not even school stuff, like life. You know, I had priorities, you know, so many people like stay up all night and do all nighters to get their project done for the next day. And like, I never did that. It's like, you guys probably should learn some time management priority structures. Um, you guys should grow up a little, you know, yeah. Yeah. And, but it also made me realize like, I don't think I could have done that when I was 19, I wasn't mature enough to manage that.
08:42
I probably would have failed miserably. So I feel like I wait, you know, when I started, it's like, I feel like I had wasted so many years of not going back to, you know, all the years from what I should have gone to school to what I actually did. The Lord was just like, no, I got that, it's all good. We'll restore that. There's some scripture about restoring that stuff. So it was really cool. That's cool. Michael, I'm aware like what you do specifically in architecture.
09:11
I think is just really cool. And, and I, you know, we don't need to spend a lot of time on it, but could you just share with everybody, like what you do and kind of what the values are in it, like why you do it? Uh, yeah. I mean, those took a while to hone in on, but you know, my, we don't do commercial unless the right job opportunity, a person, people come along, it's just all residential. And you know, when you start out, you got to say yes to everything. You're just, you know, you, you're scrambling to keep the lights on. And.
09:40
You know, you have these big aspirations for what you think architecture is and what you ought to do, but you know, you're doing renovations and additions and screen porches. But I've just got to the point where, like, what's really important to me now is, you know, number one, downsizing and just focusing on smaller footprint homes. And when I say smaller, that's probably like maybe 2000 square feet and under.
10:06
I mean, you could pack four or five bedrooms and you could pack a bunch in 2,200 square feet or even smaller. The house we build is 650 square feet. So, but really focusing on smaller, well-built, I don't like the word sustainable, but energy efficient, you know, sourcing, you know, anything could be local. It's hard to have a sense of regionalism, but using things.
10:33
that are readily available, but imagining how to go together in really nice ways. It's like, you can put a piece of plywood together where it looks like a two pieces of plywood put together, or you can come up with a really cool detail that it's like, wow, that's really cool. So just focusing on detail, focusing on materials, focusing on energy conservation and efficiency, and really just letting the land in a lot of ways tell you what to build or what not to build.
11:03
Michael, I'd love to take it, like have you take us in a little bit to, I mean, you could probably talk for like hours and days around all of the nuance and the subtlety around it, but what is at the heart of an architect? Like, and part of the reason I asked that is one of the phrases that we like to use at Restoration Project is we want to, as an organization, architect resources and experiences for men. And that word architect is one that has.
11:32
been sticky for us. And we actually, we use that with intention because organizationally we, we believe that there's an attention to detail and kind of a craftsmanship associated with that, but yeah, like you actually are one of those. And so how would you describe that? Like at the heart of an architect, he or she is. I think that, uh, and I can only answer for me. So I'm only answering for me. I don't want to tear the profession down, but for me.
12:00
at the heart of an architect as an architect is being a listener. You know, it's your project as a client. It's not mine. It's your money. It's not mine. This is a big deal to you. So to be able to listen and not just regurgitate design-wise, somebody's thoughts and their parts and pieces of what they want in the house. And, but it's more about, you know, trying to figure out.
12:30
how you actually aspire to live. Cause probably where you live now isn't the scaffolding for how you actually aspire to live. It's easier to say like, well, this doesn't work in my house and this hasn't worked in another house and I wish it could be this. So really just listening and getting into people's heads of how they aspire to live. But then at the end of the day, it's not, you know, again it's not my project. So, or my, it's my project, but it's not my ego. Like
13:00
I don't disappear and then show up four months later with some crazy design and expect you to love it because I'm this, you know, brilliant creative mind. And you know, now here's your house. We have a very collaborative process. We try to get builders or a builder involved as soon as we can. So I grew up building. So I learned a lot when I worked with good builders, I learned how to do stuff.
13:27
how to do things better as an architect by observing and participating with builders. So it's listening. It's a collaborative effort. It's leaving my ego at the door almost all the time, but sometimes you have to fight for stuff, but when clients, I'm not trying to win like awards and magazines or be like the firm of the year. When clients tell me the house turned out way better than they ever dreamed it would be, that's all I need. You know, we did our job.
13:57
And my wife works with me. Shannon is an interior designer. So it's just the two of us that almost every project I do, she's, if it weren't for her, my designs kind of tussle at the edges and she makes them beautiful and works with clients to pick everything out. And, you know, it's just really a beautiful process and we never hand it off to other people to do the work for us. We do it from A to Z all the way through. And that's a very unique, I guess you would call that a
14:26
firm, but even the boutique firms that I know around here still have employees. It's just us doing it. So a lot of listening, a lot of trying to get into people's heads of what they actually really want and what they're actually really saying. So yeah, it's a kind of being like marriage counselors and therapists and designers. I kind of want to like, yeah, I'm glad you bring that up because as you're talking and saying you have to be a good listener, this is a collaborative process.
14:56
You have to know at times like what to fight for. Like the thought that's rolling through my head is those feel like postures that actually enable connection with other people. And some of the work that we try to invite men into a restoration project right is to actually be responsive to the work that God is doing in their life and to actually engage their own hearts in some, hopefully some deeper ways. And so I guess I was wondering, like, as you're saying those things, all of those skills feel applicable and translatable.
15:24
to the relational space, like, do you feel like your architecture work has made you better in relating, better in the relationships that you have because of the skills and postures that it requires? Yeah. Because I came in 2016 when I started my own firm, I came in pretty hot and heavy. I knew what I wanted to do and I'm a designer and I'm an architect now and, you know, kiss the ring. And it took a lot of years of just...
15:52
the Lord actually asking me to be more humble and be appreciative of the work that comes in. So like always reminding myself to stay humble. But also the story work that I've done over the years with Wild at Heart doesn't call it story work, but in a lot of cases, that's what you're doing, but it's kind of like you and God's story work. RP brought me into a whole new thing of like,
16:20
Oh, like in the presence of other men and learning to be curious because clients say some wacky stuff and think they want some wacky stuff and to learn to be, you know, kind and aware and curious to what they're trying to say they're desiring has been like in the last three years has been a huge impact for me of how I engage in initial meetings and initial conversations of just.
16:49
Like really being present, being aware, being curious, and like using that skillset that you guys have been giving me to integrate into my own practice and how I go about onboarding, or trying not to onboard somebody, because you may be somebody I really don't want to work with. Michael, I'm gonna shift gears just slightly, because I know that
17:17
In a similar space, you've been working on a passion project for a couple of years now that has been really near and dear to you and close to you that has come out of some of your background with construction and architecture. Do you want to tell us about what you've been up to and maybe even just like, what's that process been like for you? I'm assuming you're talking about building the house, huh? Yes. Yes, definitely.
17:43
I think, you know, Cody, I love that question because we had a hundred year old farmhouse in Hendersonville that I had been renovating for like seven or eight years that I had told Shannon when we bought it. It's like, oh, I can have that done in a year and a half. Long story, somebody has knocked on our door one day and asked if they could buy our house. No inspections, no nothing. It was like, Shannon got really pissed, but I was like, oh honey, I've been praying to the Lord. I wish somebody would come and buy this because I'm sick of it.
18:12
So be careful what you pray for. But we sold that house and we bought eight acres, probably about 20 minutes, 25 minutes away from where we were living. We wanted to stay in our community. Well, actually it was like, gosh, we can go anywhere now. The Lord has been working for about 10 years to cure me of wanderlust, which you acquire as being an Air Force brat or a military kid. You just move every couple of years because that's what you do.
18:43
Anyway, we decided that we wanted to stay local. You don't just reproduce your community that you've developed in 10 years, you know, overnight somewhere else. So it was really important to stay. We bought almost nine acres and started clearing it and started designing houses all over the place. We were our worst clients I've ever had. It was fun and frustrating to.
19:11
not be able to make decisions for yourself. But we spent probably a year designing a couple different things and we, a couple different houses and we had one priced out by local builders and it was like, holy crap, that's post COVID and prices were really high. So we pulled the plug on that and just decided we cleared some property down by the creek and we just decided that how small can we.
19:39
The original house we designed was 1500 square feet. How small can it, we actually go down to, and we just kept picking away at it. And our North Carolina couple, two, three years ago, passed a tiny house code, not houses on wheels, but foundation based tiny homes, 400 square feet or under. So we worked with that within the confines of those of that code. So we have a 400 square foot structure and another structure that.
20:08
is an accessory structure. Anyway, so we ended up clearing a piece of property by the Creek and with all the setbacks from the Creek and the road and all this other stuff, it's like, we had this little shoe, we could shoe horn a little house in here and we tweaked the design and, and nailed it, nailed it down and, uh, had a couple people try price it and I couldn't get response from people and people were like, yeah, do it.
20:36
We just got to the point where it's like, Shannon, if we want this house, we're going to have to do it ourselves. So we ended up buying a 27 foot camper and we had the septic and the well put in and brought the camper in down by the creek and set it up and lived in that for two years while I built the house pretty much by myself, I asked for help, you know, tilting up walls that I couldn't lift by myself.
21:05
You know, the foundation electrical plumbing mechanical were all done by, you know, I wanted other people to be responsible for that, but everything else outside of that, I did myself, uh, spray foam insulation with somebody else. But yeah, I spent two years doing that. I was going to take a year and a half sabbatical from work, but I really only had about six, seven months of income saved up. So once we ran out of that seven months of what we had backed up, we just decided to.
21:36
because we didn't want to get loans. So we just, we had a bunch of credit cards with a lot, like just stupid amounts of limit on. It's like, we're just going to use these and build the house. So I basically didn't work for two years other than on the house. I did some projects that it's like, oh, that's a good project. I'll make some money and do that. But so yeah, two years, almost to the day, I cut the first bundle of lumber on July 2nd and we moved in.
22:05
on April 1st, so it was almost two years exactly. So about 20 months, 19 months. So yeah, now we're living in a house that I built with my hands and we designed and Shannon picked out all the colors, all the materials, all the counters, the fixtures, the lighting. She made a lot of the lighting. The coolest lights in here are ones that she made. So yeah, just a big journey, a monumental...
22:34
undertaking because I'm not a builder. I learned a lot. I cut a lot of boards multiple times and wasted a lot of lumber making mistakes. And, but man, I got, I got really good. I was always a framer growing up. I love framing, but I was never, I've never really done finished carpentry. So I got pretty good. It was a lot of fun. I got more fun. The more gooder I got, the more funner I got. So yeah, almost two years.
23:03
So we've been in the house since April 1st of this year. Well, Michael, I, I'd love to hear what that process formed in you and formed beyond the, like you just said, I'm sure the functional skills of finished carpentry and all of that, like big old long list, I'm sure of like what you learned and some of that experience, but the front, like at a, at a personal level, not a construction level, like what did that process of building your own house, designing it with your wife of having the vision for it?
23:32
of laboring for years towards it. What has that formed in who you are? Well, I think from a practice standpoint, it really informed like how we walk with clients because it's like, there's so much that you don't know and there's so much that has to happen and, and now we know that because we just did it so we can really come along clients a lot more effectively.
23:58
which is really, you know, for Shannon, how she works with clients has radically changed. But for me personally, realizing very early on, like when I make a mistake, how horrible I was to myself, the language that I ripped myself apart with, and it was always, like somehow I ended up in this space of, like, oh, that stupid little kid is here helping me again.
24:28
Like if you're going to stand, if you're going to be here and screw up, like, I don't even want you here, like just like hearing myself talk to myself, like in just these horrible, horrible ways really invited me into a couple of years of like my own every day on a job site doing story work. It's like, where's that lack of patience for my little kid? Why am I using the language that I'm such hateful language?
24:57
against myself from making a mistake, doing something that's not my wheelhouse. Like, of course I'm going to make mistakes. I don't do this for living. So I think just the patience I learned to have with myself, the kindness that I learned to have for myself and with myself and invite, you know, like my dad taught me a lot about construction and tools, but if I didn't do it his way, like I was either being stupid or inefficient. So I always had to do it his way.
25:27
But for me, during that process of building the house, Jesse was like, no, actually, there's a whole bunch of different ways to do this. Let's figure it out. And Shannon kept trying to push me to like, what's next? Like, do you have a list of all the things that, I'm like, I don't want a list. I just want to like approach this on a day-to-day basis and give myself the space to figure it out or build a little mock-up. So I did that and it probably.
25:56
added about four months to the project, but I just learned a lot about one, integrating, you know, story work into an everyday kind of hour by hour, minute by minute process of dealing with events as they rose up in me. And it was really beautiful and hard and yeah, a lot of growth came out of it. And I think a real appreciation from my dad, obviously,
26:24
You know, none of our dads did it right. They did the best they could, but you know, there's a lot, in a lot of ways, my dad really hurt me and wounded me. Words that I'm still trying to get out from under, but to be able to take that and keep that over here and have another side of just being super grateful for all the things he did teach me with construction and building, you know, how to run tools and, you know, just being really glad and happy for that.
26:54
holding that space to like, that's really a good gift. Michael, thank you. Thank you for your willingness to share some of your passion and share some of like this wonderfully kind of windy road of what your life has held and a small snippet of that. And yeah, I'm grateful for your generosity there. Yeah, just your willingness to join and bye. Jesse, Cody, thank you guys for taking time to hang out with me and ask some really good questions. It's fun to.
27:22
Think about this stuff and talk about it. That's one to talk with you. Awesome. Thanks Michael. Yeah. We'll talk to you soon, man. Adios. All right. Take care guys.