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Conversations with business founders, leaders and experts, examining the changing landscape of leadership, purpose, business growth, Scaling Up, resilience and change with business leaders and owners in mind. We cover a mix of topics designed to ignite (or re-ignite) your spark one conversation at a time.
Learn More: visit the Ignium https://www.igniumconsult.com/
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Connect with your host Phil Rose on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/coachphilrose/
Today I'm delighted to be joined by Jeff Barch. Jeff is the founder of Story Greenlight. Story Greenlight is a coaching company that helps accounting executives and other advisors to set themselves apart in their industry. It's all about a journey of communication and thought leadership. And as you know, on this podcast, we're really keen to hear about people's journey, what got them where they are today, but also learning from Jeff as we go.
10:30 - Phil Rose
Jeff's built an amazing reputation as a talented storyteller and a communicator through successful careers in television, as an editor in Hollywood. And he's worked with many of the major media outlets, including NBC, ABC, Disney, Apple and Netflix and various others. So I'm looking forward to this conversation with Jeff to learn a bit more about what it takes to become a storyteller in Hollywood. So Jeff, welcome to the Sparked Beginning podcast. Thank you, Phil.
10:59 - Jeff Bartsch
Really looking forward to this, man. Yeah, thank you.
11:02 - Phil Rose
So look, you've been around the block in terms of that Hollywood thing. And as I was reading that just then, think about those businesses you've worked for. Storytelling, how did you get into that as a starter? Because I want to restart at the beginning, as every good book does. Tell me from the beginning. What's got you into storytelling?
11:19 - Jeff Bartsch
Well, the interesting thing is when people look me up online, they usually come across the whole idea of, oh, well, Jeff, you spent years in Hollywood, and so that's where you learned about storytelling. And that is true. What I've come to realize, though, is that the whole idea of storytelling is something that a lot of us think we understand it, but there are a lot of deeper levels to it.
11:45 - Unidentified Speaker
that we may not have been actually thought about a lot.
11:49 - Jeff Bartsch
And I'm looking forward to digging into some of those ideas here. And I really started learning those basic, those foundational ideas when I was a kid. And I started learning how to play the piano. I started playing by ear and also classically. When I was four years old. And it was one of those things where it just really connected with my own personal talents, my own leanings, and my environment. I grew up in a very musical family. And for the first next years of my life, I was known as Jeff the Piano Guy.
12:23 - Jeff Bartsch
Wow. And everyone said, Oh, Jeff, you're, you're such a great piano player. Good job. And, you know, and I, my little head just blew up. I thought I was the biggest thing. I was the best thing ever because I could take things like Bach and Mozart. I could just play the notes on the page and everyone instantly told me I was amazing. So, excuse me. So it's one of those things where it was an unintentional ego boost to me as a little kid. Until there was one day, actually, a lot of my reps that I put in were on Sunday mornings because my dad has been a pastor most of my life, and I spent many, many, many Sunday mornings playing piano in church.
13:08 - Jeff Bartsch
And there was one day when one of the older musicians in the One of the older musicians kind of, she kind of took me aside and she said, Jeff, it's all well and good to play the notes on the page, but when you get older, you need to learn to play from your soul. And I was maybe or years old. Everyone was already telling me that I was amazing. I was doing a great job. And so when this lady tells me that I need to learn to play from my soul, I thought that was the dumbest thing I'd ever heard in my life.
13:43 - Jeff Bartsch
And so I, very politely ignored her for the next years until, until people started changing the way that they responded to what I was doing. And instead of saying, Jeff, you're such an amazing piano player, people would say, Jeff, that song that you played this morning was exactly what I needed to hear. Thank you for playing that song. And every once in a while, someone would say, Jeff, the way you played today, actually brought me into an encounter with God. I feel closer with God because of your gifts and what you offered to the world today.
14:23 - Jeff Bartsch
Thank you, thank you, thank you. And it was one of those things where I realized, okay, clearly this is much bigger than me, and there's something super powerful going on here. And that's been the journey that I've been on ever since to find out what are the powers that take an ordinary message and elevate it to the extraordinary. Yeah, yeah.
14:48 - Multiple Speakers
I love that. Elevating an ordinary message and elevate it to the extraordinary. So there's something in that.
14:57 - Phil Rose
So I want to just before we get back into that, I want to talk about this about playing from the soul, because I think there's a big thing there about that storytelling. To bring it alive, it's got to be who you are, because anybody can read a script. Two people could pick up a Shakespeare script, one could read it, and one could bring the audience alive. So what is it about that bringing it from the soul, do you think? When that lady with the good intentions told you that when you were a young child, you ignored it because, you know, we're young children, we don't hear the real message.
15:24 - Phil Rose
So at some stage in your journey, that lit you up and you said, hey, I get it. That makes a difference. And that thing you said there, you know, that song is just what I needed to hear today. What was it that shifted for you in that musical sense from playing the notes to playing from the soul? Do you think there's one thing or many things?
15:44 - Jeff Bartsch
Well, I think It's definitely more than one thing, but I think just to make this applicable to our broader conversation, I think the biggest thing is in anything that we pursue, there will always be the fundamentals. There will always be the skills that make up the table stakes for whatever purpose, whatever task we take on. It's when we can actually go beyond the basic skills and really focus on what is truly taking place in terms of communication. That's been the area where I've really been focusing a lot of my practicing, my coaching, my client work, and my own thinking.
16:38 - Jeff Bartsch
It's really around that idea of communication and human connection. Yeah. And so it's, you know, so applying this specifically to piano playing, what was I learning to do as a kid that I didn't know before when I was just playing the notes on the page? Well, it's it's things like, It's, you know, it's A lot of the times on Sunday mornings, we would play hymns which were designed to be accessible for as many people as possible. With that, you have a fairly low level of musical technicality that's required in order to be able to play these songs with the four-part harmony as they were written originally.
17:28 - Jeff Bartsch
And so many people do that, so many people continue to do that, and they just play the notes. But when you think about what are the words saying that are connected to all these notes, and why is it that we play these verses the exact same way every single time. Even if a hymn has five verses, a song has five verses, and you play every verse the exact same way every time, even though the messages are changing, we're doing a disservice to the communication because we're not really playing in light of what the words are actually saying.
18:05 - Jeff Bartsch
So that's just the beginning of what I was learning to do, was play the music to support the meaning of what the words were saying.
18:18 - Phil Rose
And it's interesting to play the music to support the meaning of what the words are saying, because I think that has a big relevance when talking about, you know, the communication of human connection. Because to connect fully to the human, you've got to get that emotion into that message. So thinking fast forwarding some years, you've now, you've now, you know, you become an accomplished player, rather than just playing what's on the page, you're able to play it with soul. And now transferring that into your work life in terms of the communication aspects of that, because I think that's one of the key things here about What was it for you that helped you step out of just seeing the notes on the page and realizing you could bring this into a career in terms of helping people communicate and communicate well with the real message behind the words?
19:04 - Phil Rose
Because I think that's the bit I would love to talk about.
19:09 - Jeff Bartsch
Well, for the longest time, I thought all the things that I thought I was involved with all these different activities throughout my life that were completely separate. And I thought, well, as a kid, I was Jeff, the piano guy, you know, into my twenties, uh, in junior high, I started getting into music recording and arranging. And in high school, I got into video production, tiny little high school, people. I was the one person in high school of people who cared about this at all. So I was a one man band.
19:38 - Jeff Bartsch
Showed these videos that I did of people in my high school and they've shown them on these big screens in front of the whole town. The whole town had a thousand people and everyone showed up to graduation day, you know, and everyone said, these things are amazing.
19:52 - Phil Rose
And, uh, I didn't quite know why.
19:55 - Jeff Bartsch
And somehow I still had the good sense to say, okay, well, I like this media stuff. I ended up going into radio in college and I ended up in Los Angeles because I wanted to get back into TV.
20:11 - Phil Rose
And the college that I was going didn't really have any of that.
20:14 - Jeff Bartsch
But then there was a whole nother, for the next years, I was still learning this new set of fundamental skills in terms of shaping television. I was, it's almost like I was back to square one and realizing, okay, you know, the visual shot selection, putting the music together and all this stuff and making it work as a cohesive whole. But then I got to the same place and it took me a long time sitting in dark rooms by myself making TV in Hollywood to say, this is all the same thing. Yeah.
20:56 - Phil Rose
This is actually all the same thing.
20:57 - Jeff Bartsch
This is all about what is the message? Who is this message going out to? What do they want? What do they truly care about? And how can we craft a message that most effectively communicates to what the audience actually wants?
21:20 - Phil Rose
That's the powerful piece, isn't it?
21:23 - Jeff Bartsch
When you talk about, you know, what do they want? What do they care about?
21:26 - Phil Rose
And actually connecting the message back to them. So I think there's a real powerful piece there, isn't it? Because actually, you know, we can all relate to documentaries we've seen or fiction we've seen on Netflix or on Disney. We can relate to those things in here. It's the emotion in there that brings the light, because I think when you start to hear the music, the score behind it, you start to see the visual, but there's something that brings it alive there. And again, it's the same thing we talked about before.
21:52 - Phil Rose
Anybody can read a Shakespeare script, but actually to read it and bring the emotion alive and bring the audience into it, I think, It adds the extra dimension to it. So something you're doing there, you're saying, actually, it made it all the same. So there's something about that that shifted for you. So let's talk a bit further. So you spent time in Hollywood, you spent this time, plus years learning, as you say, and you realize it's all the same. Where's the next piece of the journey take you?
22:18 - Phil Rose
Because obviously, you know, COVID came in the way at some stage. The journey in terms of the film career took you in a different direction. So tell me about where you got to or how you got to where you are now and where you are now is the key point to this, I think. Sure.
22:34 - Jeff Bartsch
Well, the beginning of it was about five years into my television career, I could see that I was quickly approaching an income ceiling doing what I was doing, even though what I was doing for many people literally is living the dream.
22:51 - Multiple Speakers
you know, crafting story in the storytelling capital of the world, you know?
22:56 - Jeff Bartsch
And at the same time, I didn't want to be boxed in by financial constraints. So I started learning about, okay, how can I start creating new streams of income? And what I started out doing was, it was based around the things that I'd been learning as a communicator. And at first it was all about what I was doing in Hollywood. And had some false starts, as we all do, entrepreneurially, some things that did not work. The earliest stuff that did work was me coaching young television editors and saying, hey, here's how to do, here's how to you know, here's how to bring this television stuff alive.
23:38 - Multiple Speakers
And so they can actually have the creative chops to do what I was doing every day.
23:43 - Jeff Bartsch
And, uh, that, that went well until I decided until I realized, well, I, I like a bigger audience. And that put me down this path of a business desert where I spent many years offering solutions to people who didn't have a problem, didn't have the money to pay to have it solved.
24:04 - Multiple Speakers
And that was very frustrating. Until I finally kept iterating and iterating and iterating.
24:14 - Jeff Bartsch
And my coaching work, it returned back to coaching. And there was an accounting firm that, as I was doing a generalized kind of coaching, an accounting firm reached out to me and said, hey, we love this conversation that you had with our CEO and leadership within our company on this podcast. Would you work with our internal thought leaders to help our internal experts, to help them become public facing thought leaders. And so that's where that journey started, where they reached out to me and said, hey, can you help us bring our message to life?
25:02 - Jeff Bartsch
And that's what I ended up focusing and really enjoyed. Working with these guys and these ladies to the point where the CEO said, you should, well, I said, I love working with you guys. I decided to focus my coaching exclusively on thought leader and communication development. And he said, well, you should, not only should you do that, you should focus specifically to the accounting world to help people And I'll just stop right there. And that's really how I came to the point where I'm focusing on coaching work with people in the accounting and the financial world.
25:45 - Phil Rose
And I love that, the fact that you're putting yourself out there into that niche, because at the end of the day, you know, the key to making a business work is actually having that focus. So for you, you went into that accountancy, but the key bit there is helping to become thought leaders. It's that piece around taking their message and converting a relatively dry subject, which we often talk about accounting, into something that connects with people. And I think there's something there, isn't it, about helping people build their story up so that it's got real meaning and it's impactful.
26:16 - Phil Rose
So what was that transition like, Because obviously, you know, working in Hollywood is one thing, working with film editors is one thing, and then suddenly realize you've got a creative sense of how to build the stories up for accountancy professionals. What was that shift? Because that, to me, sounds like a big shift from one end, film editors to accountants. Yes.
26:38 - Jeff Bartsch
When you put that together, when you juxtapose them together, it seems like completely different worlds. But when you take it over a span of time and you say, and you look at, okay, what's the value that's being communicated into the world? The question is, it really wasn't all that long. It was since COVID, within the COVID context, that It was the pressure cooker that really forced a lot of clarity for a lot of people. And I realized that the things that I'd been doing all along, it was the exact same thing.
27:22 - Jeff Bartsch
It was the exact same thing that that lady was telling me that I needed to do when I was in elementary school. And it was all about elevating the ordinary to the extraordinary, elevating communication in a way that it's received powerfully by its audience. And I realized that's what I had been doing all along, plus I had been helping others to do it. So then when you look at that progression and you say, okay, well, who has, you know, what is the market who has the most powerful need for this?
27:57 - Jeff Bartsch
I'm not going to sit here and say that accountants are the single, you know, and CFOs and client advisors are the single most needy market for communication. But I will say there is a tendency within the financial world to say, you have the numbers, that's all you need. Well, the question is, why do the numbers matter and how can we communicate in the way that it is received in a powerful way?
28:27 - Unidentified Speaker
Yeah.
28:28 - Phil Rose
And interestingly, because that's the story behind is actually getting that message across there. So think about some of the accountants I know. And we talk on this podcast about having purpose. And I think there are many accounts I know who have got purposeful lives of what purpose means to them. But I think we need to look at how do we bring purpose into this at some stage? But from a point of view of that journey for you, you mentioned about the transition and this elevating the ordinary to the extraordinary.
28:56 - Phil Rose
I think there's something in that, isn't it? Because you're helping accountants take what they've seen as generally ordinary and you're helping them become thought leaders. There's a big thing in that. So what does thought leadership mean to you? What does it mean to you at a base level? Sure.
29:12 - Jeff Bartsch
You know, thought leadership is something that can feel very intimidating and very scary to a lot of people. Okay. And it can trigger a lot of feelings of inferiority and who am I to be a capital T thought leader kind of a thing.
29:30 - Unidentified Speaker
Yeah.
29:31 - Phil Rose
I could never write a book.
29:33 - Jeff Bartsch
I could never be on the TED Talk stage. I could never have a platform of millions. And the truth of the matter is, we're all thought leaders in one form or another. Anytime that we engage with another human being, For the purpose of moving a project forward, moving an idea forward, moving a cause forward, we're saying, here's what I think. And whenever we're in a position where we have influence over the thinking of someone else, That is a form of thought leadership and it's very basic identity.
30:15 - Jeff Bartsch
That's really interesting.
30:16 - Phil Rose
I love that fact that we are all thought leaders at different levels. And I think there's something there, isn't it? Because there's something that holds you back because people think, hey, I can't get on the stage to talk about this. I'm not a TED talker. But actually what you're saying there is we've all got potential for that, but you've got to find something different. So so so there's a there's a linkage forming in my mind here about that that piece of advice that you were given when you were in elementary school where someone said about, you know, playing from soul, playing from from, you know, from soul, from heart, it says you get the message out there.
30:44 - Phil Rose
And I think those thought leaders are not the ones who stand up and just recount what's on the page. They're the ones who bring it to life. So I wonder from your perspective, what are those messages that you think people need to be bringing out to help them elevate themselves to become a thought leader? What's the story they should be telling themselves at heart?
31:06 - Jeff Bartsch
The story that they need to be telling themselves is the story of the people to whom they speak.
31:13 - Multiple Speakers
Because you can have the most incredible story in the world, but if you tell it to the wrong person in the wrong way at the wrong time, the power goes poof, it vanishes.
31:24 - Jeff Bartsch
So how do you create that power?
31:29 - Multiple Speakers
Say that again? How do you create the power? Because that's the key to it, isn't it?
31:32 - Phil Rose
It's creating that power in that story.
31:34 - Jeff Bartsch
The power comes from the knowledge of the audience, who they are, what they want, what's getting in their way, and what is the change that they want to see. Yeah. If you want to go, uh, slightly film school geekish for a second, I promise I won't go here long.
31:53 - Phil Rose
Uh, and actually the fact of the matter is this isn't, this isn't film school.
31:56 - Jeff Bartsch
This is business. This is a, if a lot of people are familiar with Donald Miller and his idea and his business that he's built around building a story brand. In one of Miller's earlier books called A Million Miles in a Thousand Years, the characters have this exchange where they talk about what is a story? And so I've taken some of those ideas and expanded on them myself to where I say that a story by definition is where a character wants something, overcomes obstacles to get it, and experiences transformation as a result.
32:30 - Jeff Bartsch
So, when you think about that idea of a story being a character who wants something, overcomes obstacles to get it, and experiences transformation as a result, you have in those phrases, you have the framework to inform any communication that takes place between any human being for any reason ever, for any purpose. I love that.
33:00 - Phil Rose
And for any person who says, Jeff, that sounds like you're exaggerating.
33:06 - Jeff Bartsch
And I promise you, I'm not. It really is that wide ranging. Excuse me. It can actually start messing with your head if you let it. And so back to your question of where does the power come from The power comes always from the audience. Because if the audience doesn't respond, if the audience doesn't respond in a way where the story is connecting with them, the story does not have the power. No story inherently is powerful. Any story is only powerful because of the people who receive it and how those people attach meaning to it.
33:49 - Jeff Bartsch
And that comes from the storyline that not only we are all living our own storyline, but it's the storyline of the audience. Who is the audience? What do they want? What's keeping them from getting it? And what change do they want to see? So if you are telling a story, you know, the story of King Arthur, Bill in the Blank, who goes out and slays the dragon, or just any kind of story, if you tell that to an audience who dreams of slaying their own dragons. There is a very strong possibility that that story of Arthur slaying the dragon will resonate in a powerful way with that person in the audience.
34:37 - Jeff Bartsch
If the audience has no desire to do anything like that, if the audience member has If the audience's desire is to, I want to preserve what I have, I want to maintain a place of stasis in my life, I want to be calm, I want to be secure when everything around me feels uncomfortable. The idea of going out and slaying a dragon does not resonate with that kind of a person.
35:07 - Multiple Speakers
Yeah.
35:09 - Phil Rose
It's interesting, isn't it? So there's some real techniques you bring in there to help people build that story up. And that first one is, you know, the knowledge of the audience is key. You can then target your message to them. And if you know what they want, and I think as you say there, it's really trying to understand what they want. And what do they care about? Those are the key things. Then it resonates for them. If they're not interested or caring about slaying a dragon, that's not a story for them.
35:35 - Phil Rose
But there's an emotional side you're bringing out there. So from your perspective in that case, building that again. So I'm hearing the same thing come out again and again in this conversation. As a young kid, you're able to play the notes. You then brought the ability to play it and bring it alive. So that story speaks to somebody in the same way that your music. So there's something there as you, as you've grown through your career, plus years in Hollywood, you've seen this, this storytelling come alive.
36:01 - Phil Rose
One of the key aspects, so once we understand our audience, once we understand what they care about, how do I get the message across in a way that connects with people, builds that emotion? Because there's a message in every story that has to really connect and it's that response you get.
36:19 - Jeff Bartsch
But how do I do that?
36:20 - Phil Rose
How do I build my story so it connects with you rather than the story that someone else is telling to differentiate what I'm doing?
36:28 - Jeff Bartsch
Sure. Well, that is where the paths begin to diverge based on who are you talking to? What is the medium that you're using to talk to them?
36:41 - Phil Rose
Yeah, okay.
36:43 - Jeff Bartsch
Because the instant that you change media, you know, any one medium has its own layer of foundational techniques, you know, learning how to, learning how, what those, you know, to compare it with piano. You have to know what those blobs of black ink on the page mean.
37:07 - Multiple Speakers
Then you have to know what the keys on the piano are. You have to know what the sounds are that are connected to those keys.
37:16 - Jeff Bartsch
You have to make the mental connection of, okay, that blob on the paper means I need to play this key at this time in this way with this combination. And you have to do that thousands and thousands of times. In order to play a song at all, in order to just play the notes on the page. But then once you get those fundamental skills wrapped up, then you can more fully concentrate on how do we bring this message to life? So to your question, how do we bring that message to life in any given communication?
37:51 - Phil Rose
It begins with the medium.
37:53 - Jeff Bartsch
Because the tools that someone will use Walking on a stage in front of cameras will be different than the tools that someone uses typing a headline, typing a marketing headline. Yeah. OK. OK.
38:11 - Phil Rose
And that's really different, isn't it? So it's about that medium in the first place, understanding where that is. And you could then help bring that story alive because the story starts to unfold for the individual. But when you bring the individual in it, there's obviously something there, I think, as well as, you know, in Hollywood. Many people flock to L.A. Or Hollywood to build a story and build a career in the movies, to get into film. Not everyone makes it. Not everyone has that ability to get to where they want to be going.
38:41 - Jeff Bartsch
And you're telling this story and creating that.
38:44 - Phil Rose
How easy is it for you to help anybody tell a story that connects with people? Or is there a special. Innate thing that we all need to have or cannot be learned.
38:59 - Jeff Bartsch
The good news is it is all fundamentally based on skills.
39:06 - Phil Rose
Communication at its core is based on skills.
39:10 - Jeff Bartsch
Skills can be learned. That's the headline right there. Now, the asterisk to that, of course, is it's really tempting to look at things that we feel that we understand and we don't know what's really driving them, or we haven't really put in, we haven't put in the thought to what are the driving forces behind these things, nevermind how to put them to use. And there, I will say, there are a lot of people who engage in communication, and they do it in a way that they have so mastered the fundamentals, and they have so honed in on how to bring the message to life in their own way, in their own medium, that it feels like magic.
40:04 - Multiple Speakers
And we mere mortals look at that and say, oh man, I could never do that.
40:09 - Jeff Bartsch
But when it comes to the idea of communication, well, one of the things that I always say about storytelling, it's easy to sleep on the idea of story because everyone thinks, oh, well, yeah, I know what that is because I tell stories all the time. And that's true. Most of us know how to tell a story about, hey, that we, we had this great thing that happened over the weekend, you know, et cetera, et cetera. You're hanging out over the water cooler, be it physical or virtual at the, you know, these days, but we all have heard stories told really well in a way that feels magical because we connect with that thing in some way.
40:56 - Jeff Bartsch
And we've also heard stories told really badly.
40:59 - Multiple Speakers
It just kind of falls flat.
41:01 - Jeff Bartsch
And so taking that to a bigger picture with communication. It's easy to feel like communication is, oh, I got this because I do it all the time. We do it all the time, which is true. We've seen it done well, we've seen it done poorly, but a lot of people really haven't dug into the core foundational elements of what communication is, why it works, what makes it powerful, and why it is absolutely so accessible to anyone who seeks to find out those answers. It is accessible.
41:41 - Multiple Speakers
Yeah. It's really interesting, isn't it?
41:43 - Phil Rose
Because as you were talking about Donald Miller earlier, my mind was going into the hero's journey type of narrative here, you know, that you were talking about, you know, going to slay the dragon. And often the hero doesn't know they're the hero until they go out and start doing what they're doing. But they've always had it in them and they find their calling. And as you were talking then about making it feel like magic, I was going in that same direction, thinking about, OK, how can you build a communicator who's great at doing what they do, where they didn't know they were good at in the first place?
42:12 - Phil Rose
So you're taking your chosen marketplace of accountants and helping them become thought leaders. Some of them never thought they could do that. But you're helping them go to absolutely see that they can be that person. They've got that ability to go out there and slay the proverbial dragon in the accountancy world and get their message out there. But they didn't consider themselves a communicator in the beginning, but they've now become the chosen one to do it. But in any of those stories, there's got to be a leap of faith where they suddenly have the confidence to do it.
42:44 - Jeff Bartsch
Well, in this case, the confidence comes from the fact that they have their fundamental skills.
42:51 - Phil Rose
They know the numbers like the back of their hands.
42:54 - Jeff Bartsch
Now, a lot of the times the clients that I work with, they have a very strong case of what we call the curse of expertise. What is normal to us is often extraordinary to other people. But we're around it all the time, and we don't know how special it is. So the fact of the matter is, when I'm working with one of my clients who is a virtual CFO, And she's looking at the balance sheet of a company.
43:33 - Unidentified Speaker
She's looking at projections into the next quarters.
43:37 - Jeff Bartsch
And she can see what's happening with the company. But the CEO is often in a place where, the CEO is often in a place where they are responsible for knowing how to make the decisions for everything. They are responsible. And when you, eventually you're gonna get to a point where you don't know what you don't know, or you're very much aware that this is not my wheelhouse, yet I'm responsible. Uh-oh. And so this is why when, so when my client comes along and can actually say, okay, here are these, you know, Here are the numbers, but here are what the numbers mean, because I know you, the CEO, I know that you care about, to be specific, one of my clients, her name is Hannah, and she's a virtual CFO.
44:39 - Jeff Bartsch
She's working with a company who is desperately trying to figure out, should I protect the future value of my company? But is that going to, but how can I take care of my people right now? Because, you know, it seems like she has to choose between company valuation and employee compensation.
45:00 - Phil Rose
That's interesting.
45:01 - Jeff Bartsch
And she, it feels like an either or thing. And so when I was talking with Hannah, And we were using some of the tools that I use in my coaching sessions. And we came up with this image of a scale. It's like, it's a balance. It doesn't have to be either or, how can we get both? And just thinking of that image helped Hannah go back to reshape the way that she presented her projections to the CEO, to the way that, hey, Here is how you can do both. Here's how you can protect your company valuation, take care of your people now, and here are the options of how we can make that work.
45:42 - Phil Rose
We could do X percent increase in sales, whatever.
45:46 - Jeff Bartsch
And the look on the CEO's face, you could feel, Hannah told me she could just see this physical weight lift off the CEO's shoulders.
45:54 - Multiple Speakers
I mean, and they were both, at the end of the call, they were both in tears.
45:58 - Phil Rose
Yeah, I love it, because I saw a way forward.
46:00 - Jeff Bartsch
Yeah, because no, this is not about just numbers. This is not just show me the P&L, show me the balance sheet. This is how do I connect the meaning of these numbers to the things that I truly care about? What I have built in my company and the people who keep the company going. I care about people. You know, so it's, I feel like I've kind of gotten off in the weeds here, but there are a lot of different ways we can go from here.
46:32 - Multiple Speakers
I'll just stop talking right now. No, I love that, because I think what you're talking about, Hannah's a great example of things there, where she's able to convey the message and get the message out of that balancing company valuation, employee compensation, getting that balance and realize it's not just about the numbers, there's another way forward.
46:48 - Jeff Bartsch
And you said something just now, make it feel like magic.
46:52 - Phil Rose
And I think there's something there about how we communicate the message. And it comes back to you when you're playing the piano as well. We can all play the notes on the piano or on the page if we can play the piano, but it's actually bringing it alive, playing it with soul. And I think what I'm hearing there from you is that the key to getting your message out is enabling you to see beyond the words on the page. To bring it out so you can understand your audience, understand what they care about, but also understand how to really connect to those individuals so they really have a value from it.
47:22 - Phil Rose
And that's the power of what you're talking there in terms of, you know, that transformative way that you're putting a message across. So I wonder, as we come towards a conclusion of this episode, if you were to go back and think about, you know, that message you were given when you were playing the piano in church all those years ago and someone said to you, you need to play with soul, At that time, it didn't resonate for you. But if you were now to reconvey that message to the young Jeff in a better way, I wonder how you would better convey that same message so it resonated for the young elementary school kid that you were.
47:56 - Phil Rose
How do you put that message together?
47:57 - Unidentified Speaker
Hmm.
48:08 - Jeff Bartsch
How would 10-year-old me have received, what would I have had to say in such a way that 10-year-old me who knew virtually nothing about emotion could come to the place where you realize that what you do doesn't matter. It is about, as Maya Angelou said, people will forget what you said. People will forget what you did. They will never forget how you made them feel. And so how do I communicate to my or 11-year-old self? There are times when messages will not connect.
48:55 - Phil Rose
If I was to go back to or year old me and say, she's right.
49:00 - Multiple Speakers
You got to feel things.
49:03 - Jeff Bartsch
year old me would have said, feelings are dumb. I'm going to go play my Bach. And so, There is a time when, and I think the message that I would have given myself at that point would be, be excellent. Learn to do what you do in such a way that the skills feel like magic. Learn how to make the fundamentals of anything that you do vanish so that you can concentrate on what really matters. But none of that happens without the fundamentals. So get to the woodshed, put in your time, let's go.
49:49 - Unidentified Speaker
Yeah.
49:51 - Phil Rose
I mean, I saw you really working to come up with that answer. And I love that answer actually, Jeff, because we hadn't talked about that before. But I love that. Get to the woodshed, go and put in your rehearsals, because that's the key. And that message there about learning the fundamentals. And another image was conjured in my mind there. You know, I was with someone yesterday. They were clearing out. She was clearing out her son's Lego. And it just, as you were talking, that made me think of, you know, the young Skywalker talking to Obi-Wan Kenobi right at the beginning and being told, what does it take to become a master?
50:24 - Phil Rose
And actually what you've just said is true, isn't it? You've got to master the fundamentals before you can step up to the next level, because you don't yet know what you don't know. But if you get this level right, you can go to this level, then you can go to this level. And it's all about evolution. It's how I interpret what you just said. Lovely, lovely story you've just made me think of as you told that story yourself. Yeah.
50:45 - Jeff Bartsch
So thank you. I've spent, I can't tell you how many thousands of hours I spent playing with Legos myself.
50:52 - Phil Rose
It's a big thing. You know, go ahead.
50:55 - Jeff Bartsch
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was about to say it's a big thing for big kids and little kids these days. Yeah, for sure. And I'll tell you, if I can make one, if I can make another connection between this, the thing that took me a very long time to realize was that Playing with Legos is you're taking disparate elements and you're putting them together to create something that's a new whole. And I didn't realize that what I ended up doing with playing Legos was exactly what I ended up doing in junior high with music.
51:30 - Jeff Bartsch
Multi-track recording, sequencing, what I learned to do in video in high school, taking all these stacks of videotapes and taking this section and this section and this section, putting it together. And then doing that for years in Hollywood, you're taking all these Lego building blocks and you're putting them together into a whole. And truly, not only is this just the story of my life, this is the story of all of us When we talk about taking our own life experiences, we're collecting these dots, these dots of life experiences, and we put them together.
52:06 - Jeff Bartsch
And then we share those connections with the world. And I will also say that that analogy is not original to me. There is a book called The Art of Asking, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Let People Help by Amanda Palmer. And that's how she describes creativity, the idea of collecting dots putting them together in unique ways, like whatever flavor of Lego blocks you have, and then sharing those connections to the world.
52:34 - Unidentified Speaker
Yeah.
52:35 - Phil Rose
I love that. I love that. I've not heard of that art of art. I would go look at that book up, actually, and I'll stick it in the show notes. But I think there's something there, isn't it, about how to connect that life experience together and take all those building blocks, which is what Lego is, and you can build something else out of it. So there's a real metaphor for life just for you, you know, talking about there about, you know, we can all build something out of the key elements, whether it's a yellow brick or a blue brick or a green brick, it's brick, they're all just key life's modules effectively, you can plug in to build a better something in the future or a different something in the future.
53:09 - Jeff Bartsch
Yeah. And the key is, the key is you can have those building blocks, but then you need to have some, you need to have some frameworks. You need to have some ideas on how to put them together. And I'm looking forward to discussing that with you more.
53:24 - Phil Rose
Yeah, that's a good one. And yeah, we said here that we were going to build up on two episodes here, actually. And I'd love to bring this first episode to a close, because I think as we talk here, you know, there's a whole story that we put together in terms of that journey that you've taken from the high school, elementary school and high school, playing the piano, building soul into it, taking that to LA, spending your years in Hollywood, helping other people do it. And then realizing you had your own passion there about, you know, helping and coaching other people, coaching, helping coach TV editors on how to build their own story and bring it alive.
53:59 - Phil Rose
And through to this message you're putting out for accountants as well in how to help them really master their craft to become thought leaders. So I really appreciated this great first episode, Jeff. I've got one question I'm going to ask you before we close. And that question relates to your talk about Amanda Palmer's book. And the question I'm going to ask you here is, if you could go back and as a young person ask anyone for some advice, I wonder who you would ask and what advice would you ask for?
54:28 - Unidentified Speaker
Hmm.
54:34 - Jeff Bartsch
So if I could go back as a young person. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
54:37 - Phil Rose
Who would you like to ask? Ask advice. Living or dead. Could be anybody.
54:48 - Unidentified Speaker
You know.
54:53 - Jeff Bartsch
I would like to ask Jesus.
54:56 - Unidentified Speaker
How do I best follow you? And
55:02 - Jeff Bartsch
And how do I live my life with the results and with the skills and the Lego blocks and that? Resources that I have, how do I best follow you and how do I walk your path for my life? Because that answer would be different for every single person. I've been a follower of Jesus my whole life and it's So yeah, I think that's the first thing that came to mind in terms of who and what I'd ask. I love that. I love that question.
55:46 - Phil Rose
I love that answer. How do I build my Lego blocks and help me follow the life I need with the Lego blocks I've got, but following that path? What a great answer. Jeff Bartsch, it's been a great first episode.
55:57 - Multiple Speakers
I really enjoyed it. Great conversation.
55:59 - Phil Rose
I'm looking forward to picking up and delving deeper into some of the stories here around how you can take this deeper and building the strategy for people with their own stories to help them become thought leaders in whatever else they're doing. So Jeff Parch, thank you very much.
56:13 - Jeff Bartsch
Thank you, Phil.
56:14 - Phil Rose
Just going to hit record, pause there. Just check in. I did notice you before we started in terms of your timing. We did say originally we're trying to do two episodes. I just want to check that still works for you.
56:28 - Jeff Bartsch
Totally. I'm good. Swing a coffee or two. Very good. All right. And just checking, are we all right in terms of the process? Is this all working for you?
56:37 - Phil Rose
It gives us a half-time break, effectively, for a team talk.
56:41 - Multiple Speakers
All good, all good.
56:42 - Jeff Bartsch
I love how thoughtful you are. I love how you listen. You're very good at listening and clearly you're in a good place for what you do. I love it.
56:56 - Phil Rose
Yeah, thank you, thank you. So I'm thinking as we as we unfold this next episode of our case, and what I'm what I'm thinking about here is we're going to delve deeper into this this Lego this Lego thing. I love it. So it's lovely to hear that story that metaphor sign to create. So I'd love to delve a bit more into that. And I think about I want to think about some of the key steps people can take in terms of, you know, we talked about identifying your audience, identifying what they care about and thinking about your message about the curse of expertise.
57:27 - Phil Rose
I'd love to go behind that a bit more to help people let go of some of the expertise and realise what other people need to learn. Are there any other areas you'd like to delve into yourself that we could prime up as we go into this next or so minutes conversation?
57:42 - Jeff Bartsch
I would say one of the big things that I think will be helpful for people is to talk about the idea of the thing under the thing. And it's the concept of attaching, realizing what meaning is or is not attached to any given idea. And to realize that we can create those connections ourselves. And that right there is a very, very big deal. A lot of people don't know that. And that's, that is a huge unlock for some, for a lot of people.
58:13 - Phil Rose
Yeah, I love that. So we can create our own meaning is the message you're putting out there effectively.
58:18 - Jeff Bartsch
Yep. We can attach meaning to almost anything we want.
58:26 - Phil Rose
Yeah. That's cool. I like that. Just checking in time here. I'm thinking minutes. What's your time schedule like if we were to go for another minutes?
58:36 - Jeff Bartsch
I can absolutely do that. Does that work? I could go longer than that. Whatever works for you. That's where we go now. Well, if we say that it's to the hour here.
58:46 - Phil Rose
So if we gave for top of the hour, checking where we are there at that time, but maybe another minutes after that potentially.
58:52 - Jeff Bartsch
It takes up. Great. Sounds good. Okay. So I'm going to hit record again, uh, just do a quick introduction and then we'll just crack on again.
58:59 - Multiple Speakers
If you're happy with that, but I'm just going to get some equipment drink of water.
59:05 - Phil Rose
You know what?
59:05 - Jeff Bartsch
And actually just give me one moment. I will step away and I'll be right back.
59:10 - Phil Rose
Perfect.
1:00:55 - Jeff Bartsch
Oh, look at that. I was dwelling on this the whole time. Yeah, not bad.
1:01:08 - Unidentified Speaker
All righty.
1:01:10 - Jeff Bartsch
Okay. I have a, I have a roadcaster. I have a roadcaster on my end of things. I always, uh, roll a backup copy. So in case something, in case something explodes or disappears, uh, there is a backup recording of both of us. Ah, that's really good to know.
1:01:28 - Phil Rose
It's interesting, actually. I'd love to know. You've been doing this gig for a long time. Do you use equipment that you've used before, or have you bought stuff specifically for the podcast episode you're recording at the moment? Is this original equipment or new equipment just for the podcast?
1:01:45 - Jeff Bartsch
You know, I specifically bought the Read Assistant.
1:01:52 - Multiple Speakers
You know, I...
1:01:55 - Jeff Bartsch
I did buy this mic, Shure SM7B, and the RODECaster Pro, and this mic also requires an extra box called a cloud lifter. It just boosts the signal. But this is a super, super, super, super great mic, and the Read Assistant has built-in processing that it can make virtually anyone sound great. So that's the cool part. And I did actually get that gear for my own podcast that I started a few years back. Oh, did you?
1:02:35 - Phil Rose
Okay. And so I've just used it ever since. Because you sound really, it sounds really clear. You've got crystal clear sound, your picture's really good.
1:02:41 - Unidentified Speaker
Right.
1:02:43 - Phil Rose
It's good to hear what you're using. So yeah. And I like the idea of the SM7B. I'm going to look at that up as well, actually. I'm in the market for a new microphone this year. So it's always nice to know what other people are using.
1:02:54 - Jeff Bartsch
Well, and I will also say the, the, what are you using right now?
1:03:01 - Phil Rose
So I'm using a Fifine device, which is this one here, which I've used for many years. And it was fairly basic when I bought it. But it was a step up from what I had, I suppose. But I'm now finding it records perfectly well. I'm just looking, when you said just now about, you know, helps anyone sound great. I'm looking for that next step up, I think, in terms of what I do. I do it as a stand-up desk here. I've got the microphone or desk set up. Just look at how I can make it even better, I think, for the year So, boys, advice.
1:03:34 - Jeff Bartsch
Well, the number one thing that I could tell you is the number one thing that will improve your sound is to get the mic closer to your face.
1:03:41 - Phil Rose
Yeah, OK. Simple as that. I mean, yeah.
1:03:45 - Jeff Bartsch
I mean, it really is. Someone told me once that a mic this close to your face will sound better than a mic this close to your face.
1:03:55 - Phil Rose
Okay, that's been broad strokes. It's true.
1:03:58 - Jeff Bartsch
Yeah, that's really interesting.
1:03:59 - Phil Rose
Actually, I'll put mine right in front of me now. Like I said, every sound that's always useful to know.
1:04:04 - Jeff Bartsch
Let's crack crack on with episode two in that case.
1:04:06 - Phil Rose
So time wise already, so I'll give it I'm going to hit record again. And we'll go for a short introduction. Then we'll delve straight in, I think in that case.
1:04:15 - Jeff Bartsch
Let's go. So welcome back listeners.
1:04:20 - Phil Rose
I'm Phil Rose, the host. This is the Sparks by Igni and podcast. And today I'm delighted again to be rejoined by Jeff Barch. In our last episode, we talked about a number of different things about helping people become thought leaders in their industry. We delved into Jeff's extensive history in Hollywood, working with some of the great names such as Apple, Netflix, ABC and NBC and Disney to really understand what he brought to the industry. But also then we talked about how he's helped everyday accountants really elevate their story to help them to create a better message, to get them engaged with their audience.
1:04:53 - Phil Rose
And it all started when Jeff was He was given that one piece of advice about not just playing the notes, but playing with his soul to help the music come alive for people. And that's, I think, what Jeff has really done as he's built his business around helping people really craft a message that touches on the emotions that people really have. So I'm delighted to welcome Jeff back to the show again. So thank you, Jeff, for joining us for a second time.
1:05:17 - Jeff Bartsch
Thank you so much, Phil, really enjoying this. Let's keep going.
1:05:20 - Phil Rose
Thank you. Look, we've got some great stories here. We were talking earlier about the Lego blocks that people use to build their stories. And you had a great metaphor. And I asked you that question about who would you ask and what would you ask? You talked about following Jesus and understanding yourself of how you would use the tools you've got to follow in that path. And I thought that was a great answer to put you on the spot at the time. So thank you for that. And I was thinking there about great communicators, and whatever your religious persuasions, often we hear, you know, Jesus was a great communicator.
1:05:51 - Phil Rose
He got the message out there to people. He was able to craft a story that really resonated with the hearts of people, to create people to become not just followers, but disciples. And I wonder in terms of, you know, taking that analogy further forwards, when we're looking at building our own messages out in business, we want people to become disciples, we want them to become real advocates of our businesses, so they can go out and start singing our praises and talking to people. And so I wonder, what's the next step?
1:06:19 - Phil Rose
We talked about people need to understand their audience. They need to understand what the audience cares about. They need to look at, you know, bringing the magic to the story of emotion. Where do we go next in this journey to help us craft a message that really engages our audience at a deeper level?
1:06:38 - Jeff Bartsch
I think the place to go. Yeah. Let's go some, let's go to some concepts here because let's, let's, let's lay some scaffolding and that'll help us branch out a little bit. So I think. I think the biggest thing that people misunderstand about story is that it's just about the act of telling a story in the tactical sense. So what people don't realize is Any time that you've heard a story told and it's really connected with you, or it's fallen flat, it's flopped, or it's absolutely changed your life, the power of all that has never come from the story itself.
1:07:32 - Jeff Bartsch
The power has come, number one, from the storyline that is happening in your heart and mind as the audience. But even that isn't fully it, because there is the version of tactical storytelling that we all know, but then there is the version of strategic storytelling, the foot view, and that is where all the power comes from And this is how we take that definition of what a story is, prompted by Donald Miller and expanded by yours truly, the idea of a story is where a character wants something, overcomes obstacles to get it, and experiences transformation as a result.
1:08:20 - Jeff Bartsch
When you take that idea, and you break it down into its core elements, you have fundamental narrative forces. That operate at the same level as gravity. You have the idea of identity, who people are, who they think they are, who they believe themselves to be, who they used to be, who they want to be. All that stuff is wrapped up into the idea of identity. Then you have the idea of desire. What does this character want? And anytime you have a desire that's bigger than anything in your ordinary life, there will be an obstacle in some form or another.
1:09:03 - Jeff Bartsch
So what are the obstacles? And then when you get through that, you have the idea of change, the result. What do we want to see happen? Because if you really want to go existential on this, People will say that the world is winding down, the concept of entropy. Things tend to go from an organized state towards a more disorganized state. And yet, here we have human beings coming along saying, I aspire to see this change. I aspire to build. I aspire to see this happen. And so that process is where the humanity is literally struggling against the forces of entropy and the world winding down kind of a thing.
1:09:54 - Jeff Bartsch
So that's the level that this stuff operates at. Identity, desire, obstacles, and change.
1:10:00 - Phil Rose
So talking about communication.
1:10:05 - Jeff Bartsch
When we say, how do we craft a message that is powerful? We have to be aware, number one, that tactical storytelling is not strategic storytelling, but the power of all tactical stories comes from the strategic level.
1:10:23 - Multiple Speakers
The tactical things can be done well, it can be done poorly, but when you understand what is happening at the strategic level, one can communicate powerfully without telling a tactical story at all.
1:10:38 - Jeff Bartsch
And this is how, because I used to think that story was, that story is the answer to everything. I was a hammer and I thought that the whole world was a nail. The fact of the matter is, story is the answer within the greater context of what is strategic storytelling. Because this is where you take things up to the level of how do any human beings communicate with any other human beings within these core forces? And knowing that not only do we have our storyline ourselves, but anytime we interact with another person, we have their storyline going on.
1:11:26 - Jeff Bartsch
When you bring in business, you have multiple storylines going on. You have the story of the business itself. The business is a thing.
1:11:35 - Phil Rose
the business needs profit to be sustainable and all sorts of things.
1:11:40 - Jeff Bartsch
And any business has multiple stakeholders. It has the people who run it. It has the people who benefit from its product or services. It may or may not have a board. It may or may not have VCs. The C-suite, just fill in the blank. Anytime you add in another human being or another group, you have another layer of complexity of all these stories stacking on top of each other.
1:12:05 - Phil Rose
And that's where things get messy. Yeah. And it's interesting because because then you talk about, you know, identity, desire, obstacles of change. People have different things in their mind. So we all bring something else. To the world we're looking at. We all see the world in different ways. And from an NLP perspective, we often say the map is not the territory. You and I could see the same thing, but we interpret it differently. And I think that gives us a different frame of reference on anything.
1:12:32 - Phil Rose
So you see one thing, I see a different thing. We see it from a different angle. So when we look at these things, we've all got these different messages. We're hearing a different narrative. Where do we go with that though? Because as a storyteller, we're looking strategically, but I don't know what you're thinking. I don't know where you've come from I don't know your background. So how do I make my story connect with you as an individual when it's the story I'm creating for myself is my story?
1:12:59 - Unidentified Speaker
Right.
1:13:00 - Jeff Bartsch
That depends on the size of the audience and the identity of the audience. If one wants to go to a marketing context, well, marketing is one to many inherently, which is why so many people say within the marketing context, Choose a niche. The more specifically you can speak to a certain niche, that means you are far more likely to be able to speak to specific goals, obstacles, and desires of this specific group of people. If you want to talk about how do we create this message that lands powerfully internally, then that's when it becomes important as a leader, certainly as a leader to say, who is my team member?
1:13:48 - Jeff Bartsch
Or, you know, who, who, who is the stakeholder with whom I'm communicating? Who are they? What do they want? What's getting in their way? How can I help them get that? Yeah.
1:13:58 - Unidentified Speaker
Yeah.
1:14:00 - Phil Rose
I love that. So it's about the niche. And I guess in some ways, yours is specifically targeting accountancy firms. That's where you've decided to target as your niche, because actually that gives you a presence in that area. You start to understand their message, but you could take that message to anybody.
1:14:16 - Jeff Bartsch
It's the same story, but you've just chosen that one because it resonates for them.
1:14:22 - Phil Rose
So think about that in terms of, you used the phrase, the thing under the thing.
1:14:28 - Jeff Bartsch
What does that mean to you when you talk about that, the thing under the thing? As an example, when people go out to Hollywood and they go to the touristy places in Hollywood, they see the stars in the sidewalk on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. And so when you look at it and you say, oh, Well, what is it? Well, it's a sidewalk with some decorations on it.
1:15:00 - Phil Rose
That's what I refer to as the thing.
1:15:02 - Jeff Bartsch
That is the thing on the surface. But then the question becomes, what does this thing mean? What is the meaning that is attached to this? It's not just about the thing. It's about the thing under the thing. The meaning comes from the thing under the thing. You can go multiple different directions with this because sometimes the meaning is already attached as in some people will walk on those squares of the sidewalk in Hollywood, and they will see the names of all these television stars, radio stars, of movie stars, and they will say, oh, I love that show.
1:15:45 - Jeff Bartsch
That reminds me of my childhood. And to that person, that sidewalk becomes connected to nostalgia and my things that I loved growing up as a child. To people going to Los Angeles, seeking their dreams, and they have a dream of one day becoming someone who has their own star on that sidewalk, that same thing, that same piece of sidewalk with the decorations on it becomes a symbol for my own goals, my own dreams. My risks of I've put everything on the line to be out here. That's that sidewalk means risk.
1:16:27 - Jeff Bartsch
And I am doing everything in my power to turn that risk into the reward that I'm seeking. You know, so this, this is where something as simple as a sidewalk. With decorations on it, can mean a myriad of different things and take on all sorts of very deep psychological, emotional meaning depending on who the person is and what they want.
1:16:54 - Phil Rose
What a great story. I love that.
1:16:57 - Jeff Bartsch
Yeah. That's an example of the thing under the thing.
1:17:02 - Multiple Speakers
Another thing that people talk about is the image of an iceberg.
1:17:08 - Jeff Bartsch
Okay. You always see just the tip of the iceberg, but it is just the tip of the iceberg. The bulk of the mass of the iceberg is below the surface. What we see in any given context is what I refer to as the thing. But anytime you feel something, anytime you have a strong reaction to an idea or an image or as happening in your life, it's coming from that bulk of the iceberg, the thing under the thing underneath the surface. Yeah, yeah.
1:17:39 - Phil Rose
And it's really interesting that they've explained that, you know, we all have that interpretation. We all see things differently. But I think the key that you talk there is about giving it meaning. Because it can mean one thing to one person, a different thing to another person. Unless we're communicating at the level that attracts the right person, we could be miscommunicating because we could be giving them a story they don't want to hear. In terms of, you know, one person, as you say, one person sees it as their way to riches, the other sees it how they lost all their money.
1:18:06 - Phil Rose
You could look at it in that same way. Or they see dreams lost.
1:18:11 - Multiple Speakers
Yeah, shattered. Yes, shattered dreams. Yeah, love that.
1:18:15 - Phil Rose
What a great, great story in that case. So let's come back to that in terms of an identity, desire, obstacles, and change. Because in that process, we've all got our identity wrapped up in something. We've all got our desires, whether it's to be a Hollywood actor and have our name on the pavement in the star. We've got a desire for something, but there's things in our way. And in the last episode, we talked about a bit about you talk about Donald Miller and story brand. And you've talked about how, you know, bringing that transformation to life.
1:18:45 - Phil Rose
And you talk there about the power comes from the audience. So we've got that desire, the obstacles there.
1:18:50 - Multiple Speakers
How do we get the people to realize if you've got an obstacle, it can be overcome, and I might be the solution to overcoming your obstacle?
1:18:58 - Phil Rose
Because that's the key message that stories have to have. How do we do that?
1:19:03 - Jeff Bartsch
Well, and I will say, I mean, let's just go straight to applying this to business. The idea of we can help you solve your problem is a fundamental communication function of business. Yeah.
1:19:20 - Phil Rose
whether it be in marketing or sales or anything, it is all based around Who is the audience?
1:19:30 - Jeff Bartsch
What is their problem? And how do we help them overcome their obstacles? Well, if we're selling aspirin, you say, we have this. If you have a headache, here, take this. It will help your headache go away. And so that becomes the, especially within business, the idea of helping overcome problems So business tends to be most effective when people know that they have a problem. And so you can talk, there are these concentric circles of communication, especially within marketing, where you can say, well, you have your target market.
1:20:18 - Jeff Bartsch
They know of you. They know they have the problem. And I might get this slightly messed up, but just the idea of concentric expanding circles of people who know of you, who know of the problem, and then there are people all the way, the great air quotes, the unwashed masses, who don't even know that they have a problem.
1:20:41 - Phil Rose
And, uh, yeah.
1:20:43 - Jeff Bartsch
And so if a business is going to go out to everyone on the face of the planet and say, Hey, did you know you have a problem? Well, some people might say, some people might agree, but a lot of people would just ignore it and say, well, you know, so, uh, when it comes to crafting a message. We need to be careful about who we decide we're going to talk to, because especially in business, this concept of if people don't know that they have a problem, it's a whole other step to say, oh, well, did you know you actually have this problem?
1:21:26 - Jeff Bartsch
People say, no, I don't. Or they might say, oh, okay, well, maybe I do. So one could go in multiple directions from there.
1:21:34 - Phil Rose
Yeah, I love that. And I guess that connects back up to the strategic piece as well. You talk about the difference between strategic and tactical. So it's a strategic level, that foot view is identifying who the audience is and then looking at what's their problem in the first place. Because on the last episode, we talked about what the audience can care about. But if they don't know they've got a problem, you're going to suddenly show up as the knight in shining armour to solve all their problems, but they've only got a problem in the first place.
1:22:06 - Jeff Bartsch
So how do you use strategic communication to deal with that?
1:22:08 - Phil Rose
How do you go about framing that as a methodology? You talk a bit about identity, desire, obstacles and change, but at a strategic level, what's the process you would go through to do that?
1:22:22 - Jeff Bartsch
Well, if my goal as a communicator is to serve others in a way where they find the change that they are seeking in the world, that means I need to choose who I talk to. And in business, we need to choose who we talk to and who we don't talk to. Because if our business is an entity that requires transactions in order to be sustainable, transactions that can be, that can go at a profit, run at a profit to be sustainable, well, we need to choose who we do and don't talk to. So I would, yeah, I mean, so if you're trying to solve a problem for someone who doesn't think they have a problem, we need to talk to someone else.
1:23:22 - Jeff Bartsch
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
1:23:24 - Phil Rose
Because as you said earlier, if all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. But we're actually trying to solve it in a different way. So there's a whole lot of messages going through here in terms of getting that message out to people, communicating in the right way. We talked about strategic storytelling and building that at a top level. And we talked on the last episode about becoming thought leaders. And the big thing here was we talked about the hero's journey, people not realizing that they could be the hero in their own story to build up there.
1:23:51 - Phil Rose
But bring this back to business. I think you've just done that. It's identifying those people who we want to talk to and choosing specifically who we don't want to talk to, because actually you need to know who not to talk to as opposed to who to talk to because you can start narrowing your market down. And that's a key thing there. From an accountancy point of view, you mentioned last episode that you, you know, someone said, hey, we can we can do this with our team, we can help them become thought leaders.
1:24:18 - Phil Rose
How would you advise other people if they if they were working in a business at this stage, they've got their target market defined, they know what their product is.
1:24:27 - Unidentified Speaker
A lot of people communicate the features, that's what they're really good at.
1:24:31 - Phil Rose
How would you encourage them to go beyond the features, to think about the story itself and the emotional connection? Because that's really hard for a lot of people. But that's what's there. Sure.
1:24:42 - Jeff Bartsch
How would you do that? Well. To set the stage, you know, the commonly spoken idea is it's not about don't sell the features, sell the benefits, and I think the power of the benefits comes from a level deeper, even than that. So if, you know, people always talk about iconic advertising campaigns from Apple, because, you know, when the podcast, the podcast, when, excuse me, when the iPod was first released, the world was fixating on here's all the megabytes that can fit on this little stick.
1:25:27 - Jeff Bartsch
Whereas Apple comes along, Steve Jobs walks out onto a stage and says, I have this gadget. It's a thousand songs in your pocket. You don't have to carry around all the physical media. He didn't talk about how many megabytes the thing had. He didn't talk about the features of how the box worked. He said, this is the benefit. This is what it will get you. And people say, see, that's where the power is. And I'd say it goes farther than that. Because if you remember the advertisements, the television advertisements, that people, you know, it's these brightly colored animations with black silhouettes of people dancing around the screen.
1:26:12 - Jeff Bartsch
I would argue That the power of that message, a thousand songs in your pocket, does not say, I can have lots of songs. It's you have the freedom. This box is the thing. The thing under the thing is freedom to have the music that you want. And you can take it with you wherever you want. So the thing is the box, the thing under the thing is personal freedom.
1:26:39 - Phil Rose
Yeah, I love that.
1:26:42 - Jeff Bartsch
So that is where went back to your question of how do we create a message that connects with people. That is the kind of level that we have to be thinking about. Now, you may not always want to This is where messaging can become tricky. Because if Steve Jobs had just walked out on the stage and said, this box equals your personal freedom, people would probably have looked at him and said, eh, no. But the power of that is he said, hey, this is what it will get you. But he spoke that within the light of the psychological and emotional knowledge of what drove that.
1:27:40 - Jeff Bartsch
And so that benefit statement was driven by the deeper level emotional and psychological elements right there.
1:27:48 - Phil Rose
I love that. And, you know, we've all heard that thousand songs in a pocket, but I thought of that love, that expansion you've given that there in terms of that freedom and actually looking at putting in that light, you really get a different message coming alive. And I think that's that just shows, you know, the power of not selling features, but selling the freedom it will bring you literally, but actually having the message that really connects with the audience. So I think this has been a great second episode in terms of some of the things that we do to bring this alive, to be able to help people really understand how storytelling at a strategic level is the key to this.
1:28:21 - Phil Rose
Because if we get too tactical, we go into the weeds too quickly. We need to have that foot view to start with to really help people elevate themselves. So I've got one final question for you in that case, in terms of wrapping up the story here. And that story is, that question is, if you were to look back over your life in terms of the story you've told yourself, what's the message you would go back and give the young Jeff? We talked last episode about the, you know, how would you reinterpret things, but what's the message?
1:28:48 - Phil Rose
If you would go back and give young Jeff a piece of advice, what's that piece of advice that you think he could benefit from
1:29:00 - Jeff Bartsch
I grew up in an environment where, and raised by parents who were part of a generation where you pick a path and you stick to it. I will also say that as a lifelong follower of Jesus and being a student of Christian culture and its different flavors, there is a very real element of Christianity. And frankly, I'd be willing to bet most organized religions, where the idea of faithfulness means holding fast to one direction and not being willing, and not being swayed, not being moved.
1:29:44 - Jeff Bartsch
And that can become a very emotionally charged thing.
1:29:52 - Phil Rose
Do you believe that it is okay to change?
1:29:58 - Jeff Bartsch
And the corollary to that is, A lot of the times, the most important change is scary. And I would say, what I would say to younger Jeff at this point is, number one, change is not only normal, change is required.
1:30:24 - Phil Rose
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:30:26 - Jeff Bartsch
And because that is how, you know, if you look at, you know, if you look at stories, people talk about victims, people talk about villains, people talk about heroes. This is also touching back on some of Donald Miller's work. He talks about how victims get the sympathy of the audience but the victim never really changed. They don't get the respect of the audience because the victim is being acted upon. The villain might receive an element of respect from people, but at the end of the day, the villain never changes.
1:31:04 - Phil Rose
Yeah.
1:31:05 - Jeff Bartsch
The hero, however, this is the one who we all aspire to be because the hero goes through hell. And when the hero comes out from the other side of those obstacles, that hero is changed. And taking on that, being willing to take on those obstacles is scary. And so I would tell myself, be willing to step into the fear because you will step out on the other side a changed man.
1:31:38 - Phil Rose
Wow, that's powerful. That's really powerful in terms of that, you know, that be willing to step into the fear because you'll come out the other side as a changed man. What a lovely thing for young Jeff to hear. And I think there's a lot of resonance from a lot of people on that.
1:31:54 - Jeff Bartsch
Yeah, I mean, I just want to be super clear at this. I want to encourage anyone who hears this. This applies to you a hundred percent. The things that we most need to do, the things that are often the scariest things to do, are quite often the things that will bring the greatest transformation in our lives. Be willing to step into the fear because what's on the other side is amazing. Yeah, yeah.
1:32:21 - Phil Rose
As Susan Jeffers said in her book, feel the fear and do it anyway.
1:32:26 - Jeff Bartsch
So Jeff, it's been this has been a great, great, great conversation.
1:32:29 - Phil Rose
I've loved it because we've we've meandered through this story again. And but I think there's a real message at the end of this in terms of, you know, helping yourself understand it. And if you think about what you talk about, you know, identity, desire, obstacles, and change. It's the results you get to. And in some ways, this message here talks there to the same thing, the victims here, villains and the heroes. We all aspire to be the hero, but actually you've got to go through that place of hell to come out the other side, to realize what it's like and realize you can come out as a changed person.
1:32:57 - Phil Rose
And I think from a business perspective, there's a lot of story behind that in terms of people understand How do I get my message out there? And what's the process we can do? And we all need to put our hero capes on effectively, because at the end of the day, we're all solving somebody's problem, which is what the hero does at the end of the day, often unwittingly in the first place. So, yeah, I really appreciate the story. And I really appreciate having this conversation for a second time and building up this story again.
1:33:22 - Phil Rose
So Jeff March, thank you very much. It's great to talk to you again.
1:33:24 - Jeff Bartsch
It's an honor to be here, Phil. Thank you so much. Thank you.
1:33:32 - Phil Rose
Jeff, thank you. That was lovely. I love that last part. What a great story, actually. So thank you for that.
1:33:41 - Jeff Bartsch
I hope we've touched on some of the things that you wanted to touch on as well.
1:33:44 - Phil Rose
It felt like, how did it feel for you? Did that touch on some of the areas you needed to touch on to get your message out there?
1:33:52 - Jeff Bartsch
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm still finding my place of putting my own thought leadership out into the world. And I'll tell ya, the idea of niching down to accounting executives and advisors at the first, when I was first approached with that idea, I was going, Ah, you know, just really do I want to do I want to
1:34:31 - Multiple Speakers
cut off all the other options.
1:34:34 - Jeff Bartsch
But you know what, I hear so many people talk about speak to your speak to your audience and the people who who want what you're offering will follow anyway.
1:34:44 - Phil Rose
Yeah, I think that's true. I think it's really true. And it's always hard, isn't it? Nitching down is a hard thing, but you have to do it because that's where, you know, the phrase I often hear is the riches are in the niches.
1:34:56 - Jeff Bartsch
And you've got to find those niches to build the riches.
1:34:59 - Phil Rose
And that's riches of wealth of mind, as well as finances, in my view, as well.
1:35:04 - Jeff Bartsch
Yeah, for sure. So thank you.
1:35:06 - Phil Rose
The one question I didn't ask you at the end was how do people find you? And I'm just aware of that. So I will add that in. So I've got two email addresses. I've got you the resolveentertainment.com address. And I've got storygreenlight.com as a web address. Which is the most appropriate to send people towards?
1:35:27 - Jeff Bartsch
You know what? I would love if you could send people to this address right here, storygreenlight.com slash sparks.
1:38:53 - Jeff Bartsch
So, so, so enjoyed hanging out with you, Phil. Thank you.
1:38:58 - Phil Rose
And if there's anything I can do, you know, at the end of the day, you know, it's great to talk. I've, I've had lots of conversations over the year, and I love every one of them. It's always nice to talk to different guests. If there's anything I can ever do for you, let me know. We'll put this out. We've got two podcasts already recorded, one with a lovely lady called Christy Garcia, and we've got Laura Gallagher, and then you're going to go after that. So this one will probably go out, I'm thinking mid-March at this stage.
1:39:22 - Jeff Bartsch
So we've got about six weeks before we put it out there, I think.
1:39:26 - Phil Rose
Sounds good.
1:39:27 - Unidentified Speaker
We normally do our social media on LinkedIn.
1:39:32 - Phil Rose
So I will send you a note of when we're going to put it out there. And if you could just push it out to as many people as you can. It's always the same with podcasts. We never know. No idea who's listening, but we know people are. So it's good to get the message out there. And if there's anything else I can do to help you, Jeff, drop me a note. Always really grateful to connect with people and have conversations.
1:39:50 - Jeff Bartsch
Right on. Same. Thank you so much, man.
1:39:53 - Phil Rose
Yeah, thank you. I'm going to record a quick outro and send people to storygreenlight.com forward slash sparks.
1:40:00 - Jeff Bartsch
Sounds good. Hey, have a fantastic day, man.
1:40:02 - Phil Rose
We'll see you. Enjoy yourself. Thank you. Bye bye. So what a great conversation with Jeff. There's so many key learnings I take away from that. As always in every conversation I have, whether it was with coaches, with CEOs, with managers, with leaders in different businesses, or my invaluable podcast guests. But I listen to Jeff and I listen to the story he's built from the years he spent in Hollywood through to niching down to looking at accountancy businesses and how he can help them with this story process.
1:40:34 - Phil Rose
The power of strategic storytelling is so important for people. And I think the messages he puts out there around what is it you need to do to connect your story to the people, to build that emotion, is one of the key things. One question I forgot to ask Jeff during the show, which I'm going to give you now, is how to connect with him. And the key is, if you go to storygreenlight.com forward slash sparks, there's some extra resources there and you can connect with Jeff Bartsch, that is spelt B-A-R-T-S-H.
1:41:05 - Phil Rose
he's got some messages there you can talk about and I think you'll find excitement for him to keep building into the business. So when you need to connect, contact Jeff. If you need any more from me, it's phil.igniumconsult.com. I wish you well.
1:41:42 - Phil Rose
You'll get some stories from him, but remember to go to storygreenlight.com forward slash sparks to get the real information.