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The Interface Podcast Crew chats with Bukola Akinfaderin, Software Engineering Manager at Carvana
Interface is a podcast where we connect technology and culture through conversation. Interface is brought to you by EMPOWER at PROS. EMPOWER is dedicated to attracting, developing and retaining Black talent at PROS. PROS helps people and companies outperform by enabling smarter selling in the digital economy.
Mobile Development and Career Pathing with the App Queen, feat. Bukola Akinfaderin
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[00:00:00] Siara: Welcome to Interface, a podcast where we connect technology and culture through Conversation Interface is brought to you by Empower. At Pros, empower is dedicated to attracting, developing, and retaining black talent [00:01:00] at Pros. Pros helps people and companies outperform by enabling smarter selling in the digital economy. I'm your host Sierra Barnes. I am joined by my co-host, Matthew and Jenny. Today our guest is Miss Bola Akin Fed. We are so happy to have you today. Welcome,
[00:01:22] Bukola: Thank you. Happy to be. Okay.
[00:01:26] Siara: beautiful.
[00:01:27] Jenni: So what we usually start out with is, uh, you know, tell us, tell us your backstory, how did you get into technology? And, um, and, you know, rise to the. You know, you're a engineering manager at Carvana now. Um, so kind of how did you get from A to B
[00:01:48] Bukola: Wow. It's a long story. Hope we have enough time, , but I'll try to be concise. So as a kid, I've always been super curious about how things work and how to put things [00:02:00] together. So I've always been that kid that, how does this work? Like how do I put this together? So when it was time for me to kind of go to college, I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do.
I had taken some typing classes. Yes, there were no com uh, real, you know, people didn't have computers back then, so don't judge me. We had a typewriter. So I was playing on my typewriter. We had a word processor. I got a word processor for my birthday. You know what that is? Basically a computer without the os.
So you type in F nine and all of that to start typing. So I was getting used to that. Uh, when I went to college, I was kind of like, you know, figuring it out like, you know, every freshman. What do I take? So I just took a bunch of classes. Uh, I decided to take a computer science class, and at the time it was Java, which was the main language that everyone was learning.
Um, I took a Java course and my first assignment was to create this like radio outlet where it was just, um, basically like a interface on the computer and there were buttons that you can make to [00:03:00] click on it and like say different things and say hi and all this stuff. And I got it to work and I added like a, a listener and all these other extras that my professor just came up to me and said, have you ever done this before?
I was like, no, I never did it. He's like, you have one of the best projects in the whole class. Like I feel like this could be like your lane, like you should really consider, you know, being a computer science major. And honestly, that was how it started. I added a few more, uh, computer programming classes and it just started from there.
So it's pretty cool. Started from college.
[00:03:35] Jenni: And where did you go to school?
[00:03:38] Bukola: Wesleyan University, it's, uh, Middletown, Connecticut.
[00:03:42] Jenni: Okay, so I imagine, um, uh, as a black woman, maybe there wasn't a lot of black women there.
[00:03:51] Bukola: No, there was not any black people at all. Like I was one in my whole computer science class. I think one more, one of [00:04:00] my other friends also, but she wasn't in that particular class. But that was the only like two of us that I know that were in computer science. It was, it was crazy.
Not all.
[00:04:10] Siara: shock being one of one or one of two, or were you kind of, um, used to being one of one?
[00:04:19] Bukola: Oh yeah. I mean, I grew up in New Jersey, kind of like a very white town, so I was the only black girl in my senior class. There were, it was me and two black guys, and that was it.
[00:04:33] Jenni: New Jersey.
[00:04:34] Bukola: Yeah. In the town that I grew up, it was just three of us, uh, black people in the whole senior class. So I was like, yeah, going to a school where I kind of like was in the same environment.
It was kind of like, oh, okay. I'm the only one again, . I mean, honestly to think about it, that kind of prepared me for the rest of my career, right? . So just being the number, the only one in the room has always [00:05:00] been a thing, you know, growing up. So I kind of got used to it, to be honest.
[00:05:04] Jenni: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:05:06] MattieCakes: Do you have any tips or strategies for other people that might find themselves in one of one of the room?
[00:05:15] Bukola: I mean, just be the best that you can be. Just show up as your full self and just, you know, take it over. That's what I do. Just have that confidence that, hey, I might be the only one that looks like me here, but I'm gonna be the best.
[00:05:27] Jenni: yeah, I think that's great
[00:05:29] Siara: that's great advice. Jinx,
[00:05:34] Jenni: So after you graduated Wesleyan, um, you know, you know, I think you, you ended up more, you, you said you learned Java, but I, I think you're more of a UI developer. How did you make that transit?
[00:05:48] Bukola: So, okay, so after I finished, um, university, it was around the time, well, a year after nine 11 had happened and I was living on the East Coast, right? That was a [00:06:00] really, really tough time for just getting jobs as graduates. So I, funny enough, was not able to get a programming job right outta college. Um, I had to start doing other things, so I taught.
Website design. I actually ended up doing my school's website, Wesleyan University. They needed someone to kind of do their, uh, computer science lab website. So I was hired to do that, so I did that. I also, um, they have this program in school where you can teach a class so you can pitch a class to the university of what you wanna teach.
and actually get students and teach them. So I actually pitched this web design class cause I taught myself web design and I put together a curriculum at the school and pitched it to the school and they made me the professor. They were like, okay, go ahead and teach this class now. So, funny enough, I had like a bunch of people sign up for my website design class.
I had my friends sign up, like other people, I had like 30 students. So I like [00:07:00] became a professor at my own school with this program. It was pretty cool. So yeah, after college I did some website design. I worked for a company doing like graphic and website design. Um, in the meantime I was trying to see like what's the best way to kind of like break into that, you know, programming market.
Um, it was not very easy, I'll be honest. I ended up going to kind of like, uh, the IT path. So that's like help desk, uh, network plus like. Fixing laptops, fixing computers, um, network engineering. So I actually ended up going that route first and getting, it was just easier to get a job doing that. So I ended up at a finance company in Rockefeller Plaza in New York City, and they hired me for help desk.
So I was doing help desk, software support, um, network administration, systems administration stuff for a couple of years before, um, one of the engineering managers at that [00:08:00] company noticed I had a CS background and he came up to me and said, Hey, I noticed you have a CS background or you're working help desk.
Would you like to come build like web applications for us for the company? Uh, we could put you on as a trial on one of our projects and see how you do. And basically, they transitioned me from help desk into that. The applications team. And I was working on building the CMS content management system that runs the company website and one of their CRM uh, applications.
So I started like learning, uh, C sharp, uh, asp.net, which is what we were using back then to kind of like run the, um, applications. So that's how I kind of like broached my way, like from help desk. And now I started, you know, I became a web application developer after
[00:08:49] Jenni: That there's so much to unpack there because just the, the how well rounded you are. Cuz like, I've always been a software and when people say, oh, you work on computers, and they're like, [00:09:00] oh, I've got this problem with my desktop and I'm, and I'm always like, different skills. Like, don't ask me. I don't know.
So the fact that you have a CS background, you're working in it, you're teaching, that's also very, um, we always talk about, well, actually Maddie's a teacher, which is, I don't know if we've explored, um, but like as an introvert, standing in front of a c a class of people and like being in charge just sounds like a nightmare to me.
So just, um, and, but knowing that you've done speaking engagement, which, which we'll get to, I just, it's just kind of amazing how well rounded you are and the opportunity that you had that the company that you're at to say, oh, you know, we, we, we see this in you. Let's give you a chance. Do that. And, and, you know, and jumping into that, into that, uh, opportunity is, is amazing.
[00:09:52] Bukola: Yeah, it was, uh, it was pretty good. Funny enough that, um, first engineering manager reached out to me 15 years [00:10:00] later cuz he's at Uber and he was like, Hey, I remember you. Do you wanna come here? and interview at Uber? So that was really funny. It like, we connected in, in SF like 15 years later. It was, it was crazy.
It was awesome though.
[00:10:17] Jenni: Yeah. The, the, the, the network, your network is the gift that keeps on giving, right.
[00:10:23] Bukola: Yeah, definitely. It
[00:10:24] Jenni: right. You, you,
[00:10:25] Bukola: him.
[00:10:26] Jenni: you meet someone today and then Yeah. Down the road, you know, you can, you can take a, you know, there'll be an opportunity for you, for you to, you know, take a new endeavor together. Um, so, uh, at some point you, you ended up at Kava.
How long have you been there?
[00:10:45] Bukola: I've been at Carbona for almost three years, but actually the journey is like even more interesting than that, right? So,
[00:10:53] Jenni: it.
[00:10:53] Bukola: so imagine going from web application developer to mobile cuz I'm, right now I'm mobile, right? [00:11:00] So, uh, how did that happen? I went to Nigeria. I'm from, I'm from Nigeria. Uh, I think my sister was getting married.
Uh, I grew up here, so I really didn't know too much as you know, about Nigeria except for like when I left as a kid, just like little things. So when I went back for her wedding, that was around 2009, I believe. And. One thing that really grabbed my attention there was just their radio culture, like their, um, on air personalities.
The radio shows that they had were so lively. It was so different from what we have here. And so entertaining and the music scene. So people that Afro beat is just knew here. Like back in 2009, Afrobeat, like, I was like, okay, what is this? This is like cool. Cause when I was in Nigeria at that time, when I was a kid, like we didn't have that Afrobeat scene yet.
Like that wasn't on the scene. So we were listening to like Michael Jackson
[00:11:59] Jenni: Yeah.
[00:11:59] Bukola: this [00:12:00] like, like, like we had like Fuji, which is like our cultural music back then, but it was like more like the old people music. Like, hey, like, but like now the Afro beat scene was like coming on the scenes. It was like super exciting.
And I'm like, wait, how do I listen to this music? Back in the States and I was trying to look for different platforms. Um, at that time I feel like streaming was like just getting on its way. There were apps like Tune in, but they didn't really carry a lot of African content. So I was like, Hey, maybe I can build something.
Right? So I started learning how to build Blackberry because Blackberry was like the smartphone at that time. And I started like looking on YouTube and like, how do I build a Blackberry app? Like I have no clue, right? So I first, the first thing I did is like, okay, let me build a mobile web app. Because I already knew web, right?
So I was like, let me just build like a version that I feel like I can just look at on the mobile. [00:13:00] So I built this like really rudimentary like UI and put like a bunch of like streaming, um, streaming links on there for African radio stations. So I found one for bfm, which is like one of the biggest radio stations in Nigeria.
Cool. Fm like the major ones, like about 10 of them. I found their links somewhere. They were all scattered everywhere online. I got it. I put it on the. and I just like sent it out to a bunch of friends and they were like going wild. They were like, wait, what? You can listen to straight live radio all the way from here to Nigeria?
Wow. Like everyone was super excited. They're like, oh wow, this is amazing. I can't believe I'm hearing the latest, like Ws kid, like he, he was out back then. He just came out with like his first song and people were like, oh my God. Like they were amazed because prior to that the only way for us to get music is like, you know like where you go to Jamaica, you just buy the CDs, right?
And then you come. That's the same [00:14:00] way we were getting our music. Somebody would burn a bunch of CDs, come back, and then now we have the music and then it gets still quickly cuz it's like not, you don't have that live feedback. But when I built this app, now you're getting like as soon as it drops on the radio, you're listening to.
So I made this thing into a Blackberry app and just like put it out there and it went viral, like huge, like artists found out about it, like Afrobeat artists this, or tweeting about it. It was trending on Twitter, all this stuff. And then people were calling me like, Hey, yo, your app is viral back in Nigeria.
I'm like, what? And somebody just convinced me like, Hey, you wanna come back here and see how you can build out like a startup around this app? And I was like, why not? And I left my job in the US and move back to Nigeria for, to just kind of see how I could just build out this business. So I was, I was over there running a startup for about four years, [00:15:00] um, building out this mobile app around African radio.
Um, I got about 400 radio stations live streaming online. Got it on there. Um,
[00:15:12] Jenni: that there's 400 radio
[00:15:14] Siara: Right.
[00:15:15] Bukola: Yeah.
[00:15:15] Jenni: to think if the US has 400.
[00:15:18] Bukola: Oh well the 400 was across Africa, so I had some Kenya
[00:15:21] Jenni: Oh, okay.
[00:15:23] Bukola: Ghana, so it just went kind of bigger than what I was anticipating for like my approach for building this app was like, let me get people in the diasporas to get music quickly.
Right. That was like my approach, like this is the selling point. But then I saw like there was this huge need in Nigeria for the rural areas to listen to the cities. So they had never listened to the city radio stations cuz they're out in the outskirts and they had never heard that. So they started downloading it cuz they wanted to listen to the big radio stations in the urban areas and they never [00:16:00] had that access before in my app.
So that was the bigger need that I didn't even see when I built the app. And it was. It went insane. Like I, um, got contacted by Google, um, Microsoft to partner with them, to build it on their platforms. Um, Nokia, which is is still a huge brand in Africa, by the way. They were 70% of the market at that time.
They contacted me to build out my app on their phones and their platforms. Um, I partnered with about 10 radio stations. I had commercials on radio, uh, commercials, on tv, big events, partnered with big concerts, artists, uh, record labels, um, getting new music on my app from different artists. It was a wild ride.
[00:16:47] Jenni: Yeah. That's amazing. So, so what, what is the challenge with that? When, when you have to support Blackberry, um, Nokia, you know, and the, the other platforms, you know, is it a different [00:17:00] front end and you have the same back end? Or did the, the application evolve over time?
[00:17:04] Bukola: Yeah, so the backend actually back, uh, back then, I don't even think, I, I guess AWS was kind of like out, but I'm not really sure to be honest. But I built it like just rudimentary, uh, sequel, my php, and then I had like these APIs. Yeah, it was like a lot of like me piece and stuff together. But I built out all these APIs by myself, like I didn't use a third party.
I wrote all the scripts in PHP and connected it to a sequel back, uh, backend. Uh, and then all the apps kind of connected to the same APIs that I wrote. So yeah, I was running everything. Um, they had the Windows phone on Microsoft that was running off the backend. Um, no care phones. They were using Symbian at that time.
It was running off that, um, yeah, the same back.
[00:17:52] Jenni: Were you doing this and having a, a full-time job, or was this like what you were doing for your job at that?[00:18:00]
[00:18:00] Bukola: this was gonna be my full-time job. I had a consulting job for about a year when I came to Nigeria, but that expired, so like this was like my full-time thing. I was running this full time.
[00:18:10] Jenni: Wow. Yeah,
[00:18:12] Bukola: Yeah, it was, it was
[00:18:14] Jenni: that's fun. That's just a, just an amazing story to, um, just the way you kind of made the world smaller by connecting, you know, music just connects everybody and you being, being able to bring that to everyone is just awesome.
[00:18:29] Bukola: It was definitely in need there because like looking at the bigger apps, like they weren't focused on any African content at all. So it's like I would go on their apps and I'd see like maybe one station on there under the African category, and I'm like, there's so much content out here. There's like, I found 400 different stations that I can put on my app and I like, I just built it like 400 African
[00:18:52] Jenni: like when I moved to Houston, no offense, Sierra, I know you're from around here, but the radio stations here. [00:19:00] Not, I'm coming from like, uh, you know, Maryland, DC Virginia, where there's several like really good stations that I used to listen to when I came here. I was like, it's not the same.
[00:19:13] Siara: two
[00:19:15] Bukola: Wow.
[00:19:16] Jenni: we had like three, so if you're in Maryland, you're between DC and Baltimore.
So between those two cities, you could get like six different ones, I guess. And so just the variety was a lot better. So e even like, I, I, I mean even something like that to like connect to like the kind of music I was listening to back in school and that style of DJing, I guess, um, versus like what, what's here in Texas, um, would've been, yeah, it would've definitely made me feel more at home, uh, in my commute in the radio, listening to the radio.
[00:19:51] Bukola: Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, I mean, my journey in Nigeria came to an end, unfortunately. Um, there was a [00:20:00] acquisition deal for me on the table, uh, to acquire my company. I built up half a million users on the platform, um, kind of trying to source like acquisition deals. Um, unfortunately, you know, things didn't line up properly.
Blackberry was on the decline and 80% of my user base. Where was Blackberry? Cuz I had built for Blackberry. Um, we tried to transition over to Android and iPhone at that time, but it wasn't the same value prop because the data plans in African countries are super expensive and Blackberry was the only one that was able, like, was affordable.
Right? With Blackberry, you can make me spend $20, you can get three, four gigs. But with, I enjoyed an iPhone, you're spending like 50 bucks to get one gig. And when you're using a streaming app that's gone in like a couple of hours and you're like, okay, $50 for two hours, that's not gonna work. So unfortunately Blackberry had a big thing like in Nigeria and they had a huge [00:21:00] market.
I mean, at one point they were like 40, 50% of the market and they kind of just lost it because they didn't, um, cater to the developer community in my, in my opinion, um, it was very difficult to build Blackberry apps. It's not like, you know, Android where you just build. You know, one kind of like source code and it deploys on all their different screen sizes.
For Blackberry, they had like six different screen sizes and you had to build a separate app for each one.
[00:21:28] Siara: Wow.
[00:21:29] Jenni: Oh,
[00:21:29] Bukola: Yeah. You had to do the, um, all the UX and UI per device and deploy. Every time you deployed you had to deploy six different apps and they just, they never worked on that. And I mean, they came to Nigeria and they asked to meet with me.
Actually, I had a whole conversation with their team. They were like, oh, we heard about your app. Your app is really doing well on Blackberry, like, you know, comments and everything. And I sat down with them and I like, Hey, yeah, this is great, but you guys [00:22:00] are not making things easier for the developer community.
It's very difficult to deploy in Blackberry. And they didn't really take my feedback. They were kind of like, oh yeah, we're on top of the world, kind of like attitude, like we're the best, blah, blah, blah. Nobody's ever gonna take our place. And
[00:22:16] Jenni: an iPhone came out.
[00:22:18] Bukola: Exactly. And the Android came out and crushed them. I mean, too late.
They tried to pivot, they try to do something where they like, let's package our Blackberry. It was a VA file. Let's, like, we have a packager that's gonna make this into a APK file, which is a Android, um, file. And they had this packager where, where you can do it, but it was too little, too late. You guys, like, you just didn't move quick enough.
And that was really their downfall. And if they had invested resources in their developer community, like, you know, Android and you know how, you know Apple does. They would've still had a huge market because people love the Blackberry. I mean, don't get me twisted. Not [00:23:00] bbm.
[00:23:00] Siara: Yeah,
[00:23:01] Jenni: yeah. I don't think people, uh, not in that generation don't realize Blackberry was huge and you know, For some reason I had a POM pilot, which was the worst choice.
[00:23:19] Bukola: Pinko Trio.
[00:23:20] Jenni: That was like the worst of all of them. And it took me like a year to be like, why can't I play with friends on this? Everyone else's with friends.
[00:23:28] Bukola: No.
[00:23:29] Jenni: But, um, yeah, Blackberry was,
[00:23:31] Bukola: Oh, BBM Chat.
[00:23:32] Jenni: huge. Yeah.
[00:23:34] Bukola: It.
[00:23:34] MattieCakes: a blackberry with the, uh, brick breaker game. It was literally my
[00:23:38] Jenni: Oh, oh, with the little ball that
[00:23:41] Siara: Yes.
[00:23:42] Jenni: around.
[00:23:43] Bukola: They had such a good opportunity cuz they had data compression, right? They have, um, so basically like as you were getting data, you're using less because they had this whole system where they like compressed your data, so you weren't spending as much as all these other like phones. They just had their own system [00:24:00] that they even patented that allows you to spend less, uh, data while you're, you know, browsing on the internet.
And they just never capitalize on that. They could have been doing that till now because data is still expensive in African countries right now. So they just, I don't know, they just fumbled,
[00:24:17] Jenni: Who knows? Yeah. So after that, what did you transition?
[00:24:22] Bukola: So when, um, that whole situation went down with Blackberry, um, I started looking at different options of, you know, what's my next path.
And I started applying to jobs in Silicon Valley, next big move. So I applied to a bunch of, uh, companies and I got called back by quite a few. Actually, Google, apple, um, ancestry was one of the companies that called me back and I just flew over to San Francisco and started just doing interviews and ended up getting an offer from Ancestry and I ended up joining there.
So that became like my transition [00:25:00] from Nigeria into Silicon Valley. So.
[00:25:03] Jenni: the app that my mom doesn't use.
[00:25:05] Bukola: Oh, that's
[00:25:06] Jenni: talking about doing the family tree. And then, yeah, I got her a subscription. She didn't do anything
[00:25:13] Bukola: Funny enough, when I actually joined Ancestry, once again, only woman, only black. Uh, got the job. I honestly thought I wasn't gonna get it because when I walked in the interview panel, it was just, you know, cis white males,
[00:25:28] Jenni: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:29] Bukola: me as a black woman that was living in Nigeria at the time. And I was like, I don't think I'm gonna get this.
But they gave me this, um, kind of take home assignment. And I remember what it was, it was kind of like, here's this API and Jason format. And it was like, I remember distinctively, it was like the Beatles, like all the data for, from the Beatles. And they were like, okay, make this into an app. And like, I basically took the backend, um, put it together like a ui.
I built my own UI and, you know, plugged in the data and had [00:26:00] like all the beetles and all their portfolios, and I even added extras in there. And I packaged it up and sent it to them, like sent them the ak like, here's the app. And they were like blown away. They were like, wait, no.
[00:26:13] Jenni: How much time did they give you?
[00:26:17] Bukola: They were like, no one has ever finished this. Like people started and they just send us like, we don't even expect you to finish it. They just send us like what they, you know, can do out of the project and you have like a full ui. The pictures, like their songs, everything, and you like built out the whole APK and sent it to us.
They were like, okay, you got the job
[00:26:41] Jenni: That's, that's, that's awesome.
[00:26:42] Bukola: was, it was cool.
[00:26:44] Jenni: So while you were there, did you feel included or how was the atmosphere there?
[00:26:51] Bukola: Ancestry. Ancestry, it's not, it wasn't a very diverse company. I'll be straight up and honest with you. You would think that because of [00:27:00] what they do and what they serviced genealogy and like helping people connect to their backgrounds, you would think that they would kind of like invest more in like minorities, but.
Unfortunately that wasn't, that, that wasn't the case. I mean, I had a lot of different initiatives that I actually started that they benefited from. Like for instance, I was the one that introduced them to Afro Tech. They did not know what that was about. I kind of like brought it up. Um, they didn't have an ERG when I started.
I kind of like, you know, started conversations and now they have this ERG and they're actually here at ATech now. I introduced them to partnerships in Ghana. They did a whole event, uh, in Ghana for genealogy and ancestry. Like, that was me bringing all these like partnerships to them. Like they just weren't even considering anything related to like, you know, DEI efforts or anything like that before I came on board.
And like, you know, now they're a lot more invested. I heard that, you know, I [00:28:00] spoke to some of my coworkers cuz I saw them at Africa yesterday and they were like, oh yeah, now we're like, here where we went to Puerto Rico, we did this event. And I'm like, Whoa, whoa, whoa. They were like, yeah, remember you, like, like started all these conversations and I'm like, I'm, I'm grateful that they're still like running with it cuz I thought that it would just be like, you know, a one time thing, but they're like now committed to it.
So I'm, I'm really happy to hear that.
[00:28:23] Jenni: Yeah, but that's a great story.
[00:28:25] Siara: That's an interesting, um, and I'm, I'm pretty sure that that's like a common theme. One of the beautiful things about tech is that you can come from an underrepresented community in your work, speaks for you. No one can deny
[00:28:42] Bukola: right.
[00:28:43] Siara: you can do. But it's, when you land the job, you're fantastic at what you do.
You go into that culture and you're sitting there and you're again a one of one or one of few, and it's like, I'm amazing. I'm great. I have all [00:29:00] these things to bring, but you're not necessarily invested in me, the full person, even though I'm a rockstar of what I do. And then having to carry that burden of, you know, the starting in the ERGs or have you explored this other thing that's really personal for me and I know how awesome this is because it's a part of my culture.
And then you've gotta carry the load of being a rockstar at your job, but then you also carry the load of exposing them to this whole other, you know, thing that they were blind to. Can you talk about your experience with, with that?
[00:29:38] Bukola: Oh yeah. I feel like that's always like, been me, like whenever I go to a company, cuz I'm always one of one and I've, I'm always like, Hey, even though my new company right now, I'm the one that told them about Afro Tech, like they did not know about it. So I had to like, send 'em all this information. Like, Hey, you guys need to be represented here and, you know, sending them all this information.
But one thing I do [00:30:00] appreciate about my new company is that we're a lot more diverse. They already had an erg, which has thousands of black employees when I joined. So they, they have that, I mean, and they're like, um, different in the, in the case where I feel like. They promote you based on just merit, right.
Me as a black woman, I'm the engineering manager over the whole org, and now I'm like kind of senior engineering manager role now because I only team leads report to me now. And it's like, I'm this black woman, only black woman in this mobile org and I'm kind of like, you know, the engineering manager and it's like they didn't see me as a person that couldn't do it.
Like they had the faith that, no, you are doing what you're supposed to do. We have faith that you can do this. So I really, really appreciate that. And there are a lot more women that are in higher, higher end leadership positions in this company than any other company that I've worked at. So it gives me, it gives me hope and it makes me feel like I'm at the right place, you know?
So I was really impressed for sure.[00:31:00]
[00:31:00] Jenni: And seeing people you know that you can relate to, does that make it. You seem very, you seem very sure of yourself and kind, very confident, but maybe everyone's not like that. Do you think that helps overall as far as, you know, seeing people in roles that remind you of yourself?
[00:31:17] Bukola: Oh, definitely for sure. Like seeing women that are in leadership positions, getting to talk with them is definitely like, gives you the assurance. Like, and not just that, like even the younger ones that are coming up and like, you can be like, their motivation, like, oh wow, she's doing it, she's getting there.
Like I have one of my direct reports that reports to me and she's like, I learned so much from you. And she's like super eager, like, how do I get my career going? Like, she's always asking me all these questions. So that just makes me happy. Like I'm being like, someone's role model after, like looking for role models of my own.
So it's just like being that source of motivation for, you know, people that are just starting in their careers too. It's, it's rewarding for sure.
[00:31:58] Siara: That's beautiful. I [00:32:00] love that.
[00:32:01] Jenni: So you, you mentioned you're an engineering manager to too, so what was that transition like going from, you know, individual contributor hands on, you know, coding whole apps in two hours for job interviews to, you know, to management.
[00:32:18] Bukola: So I kind of like the way my company does it, um, because they kind of have like this intermediate role for you, right? So it's the team lead. The team lead position is where you kind of start your role in your journey into leadership. And as a team lead you are like on half an IC and half like leadership.
So you do have direct reports, you're doing everything a manager does. You're doing the one-on-ones, you're doing evaluations, calibrations, all of that. And you're also like still contributing. So that's like their step up. So it kind of prepares you like you don't have as many direct reports as a regular manager does, but it gives you like, you know, one or two to start with and then from there you kind of transition into being a full em.
[00:33:00] But at the same time, like this is the only company where I feel like an EM is not really like that hands off. Like I've like still been doing stuff, you know, I've still coded. They assign be a project right now where they're like, okay. We need our whole backend, um, kind of redesigned where you're gonna do that, right?
You're gonna lead , you're, you're gonna lead this project and you're gonna take care of that, right? Yeah. I, I, I like it because it's like people have more, um, faith in you. Like when you come up from like a software engineer into your management role, not like you coming up from the outside and they're like, oh, does this person really even know what they're talking about?
But when people like, you can't go into code and, and not know it. Like people come to me cuz they know I built that, I built this. So it's like when my direct reports come to me, they already, I'm the expert. I built this. So they already know. Like they can come to me and ask me questions. I'm not somebody from the outside, never touch the code.
Never know I built that whole thing. [00:34:00] So it gives you, it gives them that confidence in you as well, knowing that you were the one that wrote that code. They can look up to you, they can ask you questions. So I do like that. And, and the company does that a lot. A lot of the leaders there are started off as software engineers.
So they know the code, they know everything. They know the backend. They, I mean, we have a director that's still like building stuff every day. Like he in the code. Like, I'm like, bro, what are you doing? Like, he's still in the code like daily. And he's like, what? Yeah. So it's still like that. They
[00:34:35] Jenni: it's part of the culture there.
[00:34:36] Bukola: yeah, if you still wanna code, you can code.
No problem. Like whatever level you're at, if you still wanna touch the code is up to you.
[00:34:45] Jenni: So when I met you, you were speaking at Women in Tech, Texas, so you also kind of do speaking engagements as well. How did you get started with that?
[00:34:56] Bukola: So that was definitely from my early days of running my startup. [00:35:00] So it was very unusual to see like a woman like building this out, running this startup. So I started getting like requests from everyone really when they heard about me and when my app went viral to start doing these speaking engagements.
So it started there, I started speaking, I spoke at Mobile Web Africa, uh, spoke about my app, how I, you know, developed my app, how it went viral. So from there is like when I just started this journey and people were really inspired by the story, how I went from not having any background in mobile at all to kind of learning it on YouTube and then building this app that just, who builds their first app and it goes viral, like
That doesn't happen very often. Never touch Blackberry code, never touch mobile code built. My first app went viral. That's insane. That's like one in the million for that to happen.
[00:35:53] Jenni: So what's your, what's your favorite part about speaking at conferences?
[00:35:58] Bukola: Just telling a story, [00:36:00] basically anything that I can say about my journey that can inspire somebody else to kind of say, Hey, like she did it, like, why can't I do it? So anything that inspires people, I think it's a very, very, like, interesting story. And, you know, if I can inspire anyone to get into tech that that's, that's a win for me.
[00:36:19] Jenni: So is there any other interesting things, uh, that you wanna share with us about your story so far?
[00:36:28] Bukola: Yeah, I mean, just like I would like people to kind of adopt like a style of leadership that I, that I started picking up in my leadership journey. I come from a leadership style where I believe in a supporting direct reports. I don't believe in an kind of like author. Say of like, leadership, I feel like I am an unblock her when I have my direct reports.
Like I have my one-on-ones with my direct reports. It's always from a service perspective, how can I help you? [00:37:00] How can I unblock anything that's, you know, to facilitate your work? And that's when I approach it. And that's why, you know, I feel like if more managers kind of looked at management from that, like that aspect, it's like people's careers will be so much more enjoyable.
Always look at yourself as a service, uh, service person to, to your report. And that is something that I learned at my current company. Like that's the way they approach leadership. It's not like micromanaging, I'm over you. I am the boss. Come from it, from like, how can I help you? How can I help your career growth?
What is like obstructing you today? How can I help remove that impediment? So I just want more leaders to kind of like approach leadership from that aspect, like a service oriented aspect. And it would just make everyone's career so much, much better.
[00:37:56] Jenni: So.
[00:37:56] MattieCakes: Pros, they call it, uh, servant. Ship, and I [00:38:00] think that's kind of a big part of pro's culture, at least from the leaders that I've talked to. They kind of, I ask them what their leadership style and they all kind of say very similar things.
[00:38:10] Bukola: exactly.
[00:38:11] Jenni: Did, did you have any formal management training, either through Kiva or through, you know, some other third party?
[00:38:18] Bukola: I would say running a startup was probably like my first It was my first foray into leadership was like, okay, here's a company. Now you run it and you hire people and you do everything. So that was like my first kind of like foray into leadership. But then just kind of like watching my leaders and the ones that I feel like were good leaders. Like I have a really good manager right now and kind of watching, like his leadership style was kind of inspirational for where I wanted to take my leadership too.
[00:38:47] Siara: So crash course and leadership. Start a company
[00:38:52] Bukola: Yeah. That was like,
[00:38:53] Siara: a company
[00:38:56] Jenni: But I, I, I think that's the biggest thing is I, when, when I made the [00:39:00] transition, I thought there was some sort of book that was like, when someone asks you this, do this. And when someone asks you this, do this. It's a lot of improvisation, right? It's solving problems and coming up with the solutions on your own.
It's, there's no, there's no handbook for it. So you starting a company is definitely a way to jump in deep in and just, cuz you know, you've, you've gotta figure it all out and there's no, you know, there's no one else to figure it out. You've gotta figure it out. And if, I think that does translate to, if you're going into leadership, don't, don't think that, you know, there's some sort of handbook.
You've, you're, you're part of your job is just kind of, I always say making it up as I go, which I've probably mentioned before and I think someone suggested a better way to say it, but I forgot what they said. Uh, but yeah, I'm just kind of tackling one thing at a time.
[00:39:47] Bukola: Yeah. And definitely building that rapport with your direct rapport cause me like, Everything is not about work. I wanna know what else is going on, what can I help you with? I remember I had a direct report. He was like, I'm moving [00:40:00] and I'm having so many issues and blah, blah, blah. I was like, oh, I, I can help you with that.
I have this service. And I sent him links like, you can use this, you can use that. And honestly, that like just freed his whole mind up cuz he just like, that was off his mind and now he's back focused on work because I helped him with another issue. So it's like, it's not just like a hundred percent work.
There could be external things that you can help them solve. So I always think about it from that approach as well.
[00:40:26] Jenni: Yeah,
[00:40:27] Siara: bca, what advice do you have for people who want to do similar things with their career?
[00:40:34] Bukola: Definitely. Um, I would advise as many people to go into tech as possible. Cause there's so many advantages. Uh, one, you can secure the bag really quickly. Um, but how do you get into it? So there's several different ways, right? Uh, YouTube is a great resource. Like I told you guys, I never did mobile before YouTube.
So YouTube is a great resource. You to me. Um, LinkedIn learning, like all these different [00:41:00] sites that you can kind of just take these courses. Um, they're also boot camps. Um, I'm not gonna name any cuz they're not paying me, but , but research them. Do your research in your reviews and see like which, which ones that people have the best reviews about.
Take a crash course, you know. And then a huge thing that I would advise anyone to do is start contributing to open source. projects and also maintain a GitHub repo with your own personal projects and build apps on your own. And so when you go into interviews, you have a whole portfolio of apps to like show people, like my resume when I submitted it was like pictures and screenshots of all the apps I built on my own.
And no recruiter had ever seen that before. Like I had so many people calling me, I've never seen a resume like this. It literally had like screenshots of all the apps I built, all the back ends I built, I had all the APIs in my resume and people were like, oh my God, this is like so interactive. [00:42:00] You never seen this before.
So definitely have your side projects lock, have your GitHub repo, three or four projects in there, have APKs. Even if you publish it to a play store and nobody downloads it, have it there. So at least the recruiter can go and download it and see like what you worked on. So definitely that.
[00:42:18] Siara: That's excellent advice. Um, what programs do you think companies should implement to increase black talent and technology?
[00:42:28] Bukola: Definitely they need to partner with, uh, like foundations, like Valence. I don't know if you guys have heard of Vallance.
[00:42:35] Siara: I've never
[00:42:36] Bukola: So, so my company does that. They partnered with, uh, valence Bonds program, which is like executive leadership for black, uh, talent. So I'm in that program right now. It's basically, uh, an external third party program that partners with corporations helping black leaders advance in their careers.
So there's a whole cohort of like learning materials you have to go through building your [00:43:00] strengths and your talents. We have executive coaching, um, that's including in the program. We meet other leaders from Fortune 500 companies that can be our mentors and kind of just like guide us in our careers, like how do we level ourselves up to become these great leaders in these big companies that might not, you know, see us in that way yet.
But going through this program has given me so much insight, allowed me to connect with other people and just preparing myself to get to the Sweet C-Suite eventually, you know, so yeah, programs like that for sure.
[00:43:30] Jenni: Uh, I could tell you're gonna get there. Uh,
[00:43:32] Bukola: Ooh, I'm.
[00:43:33] Siara: For
[00:43:34] Jenni: Yeah.
[00:43:35] Siara: I feel like you can easily transition into that today, All right. Are we
[00:43:47] MattieCakes: episode is something you can put in your portfolio,
[00:43:49] Bukola: Oh yeah, definitely. Of course. Yeah. Executive coaching is the must for sure.
[00:43:55] Siara: All right. It's time for the heat check. [00:44:00] We ready?
[00:44:02] Jenni: We have, We, have a sound for it.
[00:44:03] Siara: we discussed that we were gonna figure out in order to do this, but we haven't
[00:44:08] Jenni: Yeah. We don't know how we're actually gonna execute it yet, but there'll be transition music, heat check. So the heat check portion is where we're going to talk about kind of things that are going on and technology and culture right now. Just have a share some stuff. So I would nominate Sierra to go first.
[00:44:29] Siara: Okay, as usual, I did not find a he Check article. Um, but there is a topic that I'd like to discuss around the room. So I did see a headline about Amazon is preparing to do a wave of layoffs. Um, and as we've heard in the news, there are other big companies who have been doing layoffs as well. You've got, uh, obviously Twitter, meta.
Netflix had a moment where they were laying off folks. And so, um, I'm interested around the room [00:45:00] if you guys have a take on the future of technology jobs. And I say that be I I want, I'm interested in that because. Tech was a hot industry. You know, with the great resignation you had a ton of tech professionals who were bouncing all over the place trying to find their spot, capitalizing on the opportunity after Covid.
And now after all of you know, the people were basically leveling up, you know, getting major salary increases and doing things that they never thought they'd have the opportunity to do. Now we're moving into this wave of massive layoffs with these huge tech giants. Just takes on what the future of, you know, the tech landscape as far as jobs are concerned.
Um, do you have any opinions on that?
[00:45:48] Bukola: I definitely do. So I do think this is a bump in the road. I don't think it's gonna be like, You know, like back in the two thousands where it's like the tech bubble burst and then that was it. No, I [00:46:00] think it's just, um, due to kind of like the economy right now and how things aren't that great with the war in Russia and Ukraine and inflation and all that stuff, companies are looking, I mean, there's not, people are not buying money, right?
They're trying to like save money. People are not spending, so of course it's gonna hurt a lot of business. So companies are just looking for how they can improve their Q4 numbers. Alright. Like, where could we, where could we cut the spend? And so we look like we're profitable right now even though we've been hurting in sales.
So I think that once the economy picks up, we get inflation under control. Like, company's gonna gonna start hiring again. Come on. Yeah, for sure. It's just a temporary situation.
[00:46:41] Jenni: Yeah, I agree. This is kind of every, every industry's gonna have its ups to downs. This is, this is a down, but Right. Technology is definitely not going anywhere. Right. And even if maybe these, these companies don't hire back those 10 to thousands of people that layoff, there's always [00:47:00] innovation. There's the colas out in the world that are, have a new idea and they're gonna start new companies.
So I, I just feel like this is just part of the evolution of what's going on. I, I agree. It's the best, it's the best job to have and I encourage everyone to go through that because it's, it's, every job's got as highs and lows, but, you know, I think it's gonna bounce back.
[00:47:25] MattieCakes: I mean also during C I feel like there was so much cash in the market and a lot of companies have over leveraged themselves. And now that we're in basically a recession, that's not being called a recession, things are like, , like you all said, people are trying to clean up for the fourth quarter and get right.
Um, I think the, the move towards growth to profitability will be more interesting as we move forward in the future. Um, I don't think we'll see companies like Uber who are, their entire market is just get bigger and not [00:48:00] make money. Um, I think that will change moving forward. And maybe I could see like a salary kind of cap.
I think it got crazy overboard. Um, I could see maybe companies being a little bit more thoughtful as they like dish out salaries.
[00:48:19] Bukola: That's.
[00:48:20] Siara: I have to say I agree. I, I also believe that it's a bump in the road. Definitely. Economy is playing a big part and as Maddie said, the overleveraging of the opportunity, you know, uh, with all the cash in the market. I definitely agree. I'm just interested in what the trend, what it's going to look by like when we rebound and tech companies are starting to bring that talent back into their organizations and how things will be restructured.
Um, I just think it's an interesting, you know, kind of trend to watch right now. So thank you for your comments.
[00:48:56] MattieCakes: Or I'll go next.
[00:48:57] Jenni: Okay.
[00:48:58] MattieCakes: I'll just jump the gun. Jenny. [00:49:00] Um, I'm gonna talk about, um, The recent collapse of some crypto, um, specifically a company ftx, if y'all have heard of it. Um, basically they're, they operate very similar to like Coinbase, so it's like a place you go to just buy crypto. Um, just a lot of like interesting things that are coming out of it.
I'm losing it cause I've lost it, my notes, but, um, basically this company, oh, there it is, has files for bankruptcy, um, pretty recently. Um, there's a lot of like shady things that I think have gone into it. Basically the, the owner was backing himself and his company with his own coin, which is really interesting.
Um, but then, yeah, so this bankruptcy from this has really kind of shaken up crypto. Um, I think in a good way moving forward, I think there's gonna be a lot of regulations and the whole crypto thing is like, it's not regulated, so you can kind of bypass all the, the, like, the middlemen [00:50:00] of like banking. Um, but I think this. Really has shown kind of the issue of crypto, which is that it's like so unregulated. It's the wild, wild west. And I really think that's just like a, I think there's a lot of great things that crypto can do. Um, but what we're seeing right now is it's like very much just a scam in a lot of instances where people are just putting their money in a bag and then, you know, being left to hold it.
So, do you have any thoughts? Have y'all been
[00:50:31] Bukola: Oh yeah, no, I have thoughts on that. There was an American greed episode, another cryptocurrency scam, where this guy was like, had like, I don't know if it was billions of crypto, and he was like, oh, he lost the passwords now. Nobody could get their money yet. I'm like, what? Your password? No, nah, you. No, and this guy ran away like, no one can get their money.
It's done. I lost the password. I can't get in [00:51:00] and that everyone's money is trapped in the exchange. I'm like, oh no, you gonna have
[00:51:05] MattieCakes: then they move to The Bahamas and they can find out their password
[00:51:08] Bukola: right?
[00:51:10] Siara: magically. I can remember now.
[00:51:13] Bukola: I gotta find that episode of American Greed. Like this guy is somewhere. He is like, Nope, I can't find the password.
[00:51:22] Siara: Yeah,
[00:51:25] Bukola: Who's is
[00:51:27] Jenni: Yeah. I'd be up, I'd be. capital in all caps, That's all I can say on this on this, on this forum. Um, uh, the Daily Show covered it, uh, in Monday's episode or Tuesday's episode. It was pretty funny. I can't repeat what he said, but it was hilarious. Uh, what Trevor said, but was funny. Okay, I have one. [00:52:00] Um, we, uh, at pros, we, we recently had, uh, unconscious bias training or bias training, and I consider myself, uh, well read on the subject. So I was like, yeah, I'm just gonna click through this training. Um, but I actually, um, one of them, I think there was two, one of them had some really good, um, techniques, um, to, to use to, you know, Unbiased yourself or make sure you're thinking thoroughly through that absolutely translates to like kind of all aspects of my, of what I do, um, as far as making decisions and, and you know, when you're, you know, when you're presented with several decisions, um, like, you know, as a, as a manager, you know, what's our roadmap gonna be?
What are we gonna prioritize? How much time are we gonna spend on something? Um, kind of thinking through what can go wrong and, you know, estimations are hard all the time, right? You [00:53:00] always say it's gonna take two months and it takes three months, then four months and five months. And so, uh, one of the techniques that was talking about was, um, vanishing options, um, which was, um, you know, you've made a decision.
You're, you're, you're sure that's the right decision, but, you know, working through, okay, well, if that decision wasn't available, , what would you do? And, and you know, what other options were there? So either it's hiring someone, the perfect person you think is the perfect person. And so, okay, what if that person didn't apply?
Who, what's the next best option? Um, you know, for, I just kind of took it to, you know, planning for my team, um, as far as, okay, well we have this project, it's, you know, this is, you know, these are the stakes for this project. Um, you know, everything goes according to plan. This is the way the plan's gonna go.
And really making sure that I as go through that, that the mental assessment to say, okay, what, well, what if everything goes wrong? [00:54:00] Um, is this the best choice or should, should I, you know, explore another option? So that was enlightening for me. I learned something new.
[00:54:11] Siara: I, this, this round of, um, well, this year's selections for the unconscious bias training also had me pondering a, a few points. I thought it was one of the courses. Um, and of course I don't remember the name, where it kind of puts you in the shoes of someone and they, you know, you may not look like this person.
You may, you know, nothing connects with this, but just imagine yourself in their shoes and you think you know what your response is going to be and then what the options that they give you. It's like, I could choose all three of these, or I would choose none of these . I
[00:54:52] Jenni: Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:54:53] Siara: So, Putting yourself in that scenario. And then as someone who I, I feel I'm pretty self [00:55:00] aware, there were some things that I was like, I would've never thought that that would be the path for coming from that, um, from that perspective. So it's been an interesting exercise going through these, um, this training and just kind of broadening your horizons on yeah, you still have biases no matter how self-aware you think you are.
Um, there's still, you know, other things to consider when making decision.
[00:55:27] MattieCakes: Yeah, I think that was like the most powerful part of that training. Specifically. There was two of 'em, but that one where it was like everybody has bias and that's okay. You just have to be aware of that and then confront, like, confront it and just operate in a sense that like you're not always gonna be right and you might be making biases and, and not to say that they're okay, but like, that's just how the human brain works.
And I think, you know, there's two emotions that you can't grow from and it's guilt and shame. And when you're [00:56:00] confronting these biases and you're. Coming from a place of shame, like, oh, I don't know why I'm thinking this. Then you don't get to grow from it. You don't get to like analyze why you think that way, and then you just perpetuate whatever the bias is because you don't wanna confront it.
[00:56:14] Jenni: Yeah. Awesome. Cola, do you have anything you wanna share with us?
[00:56:20] Bukola: Yeah, I do. Um, I'm thinking about remote work. Remote work and how, um, people are leaning towards going back to the office now that the pandemic is kind of like winding down. What do you guys think? Out that like companies like asking, I mean for me, my company moved into a hybrid role. So for most employees, they're required to come in like certain days of the week.
But the mobile team is still kind of remote. Um, man, it's like, would you guys, I don't know if you guys are remote, but would you feel like that is like a reason to leave a company if they're like, okay, everybody come back, like Twitter for instance, right? People [00:57:00] are living all over the world because you know, Jack Dorsey was like, go live wherever Puerto Rico, Hawaii, who cares as long as you can do your work.
No problem. But then Mr. Musk came back and was like, right, all of y'all, I don't care where y'all at. Come back to the office. This is go time. So what do you guys think about that
[00:57:21] MattieCakes: Uh, for I have. Answer real quick. I would not, as a millennial, I think I'm a millennial. I don't know what I am. Um, I will not work for a company that's not remote. I'm in Southern California right now and I don't live in Houston. I live in New Orleans. So like, just from that I would have to move. So
[00:57:37] Bukola: Mm-hmm.
[00:57:38] MattieCakes: I look for a job specifically that was work from home.
Um, so moving forward I'll continue to do that. The second thing, I think the must thing and then what other companies are doing with that are requiring people to come back. I think that's just a way to skirt around firing people. Uh, hot, hot take. So,
[00:57:55] Bukola: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:57:58] Jenni: so [00:58:00] pros, you know, we are headquartered in Houston, and I say most of the people are around here, but like Maddie said, he's, he's in New Orleans and we always kind of had a, you know, you could, we had remote access and we could always kind of do that, but no one really. As, you know, as the default. And so, um, it was available before Covid, even though we, we didn't really do it, and we did, we do have, you know, we do have people in, in different cities.
Um, and I was one of the people that when Covid happened, I was like, I don't, I wanna go crazy at home. Like, I can't, like I can't do it, but I, um, it's just I see my son more, you know, I, you know, things that are going around and just, and thinking about like, you know, the example of the person that reported to who was kind of moving and see all that stuff is just kind of easier to balance your work when you can work from anywhere, right?
So it's, you know, I'm traveling and I'm gonna make a pit stop and I'm gonna, I can put some hours in and do some [00:59:00] work and versus, you know, just the commute time and, you know, can you get everyone in together? I don't wanna see us go back to that. I think this is definitely a way for me to be myself, is to have that flexibility to, to work, work, work where I wanna work.
Sometimes I am gonna go to the office and, and, and meet people and interact with people. But, um, you know, I, I, I like the flexibility. So if that was a mandate, I would not be very happy with it at all. I, I think, I think it's, it's a benefit and right, the wor the world is spread out. You know, the companies that people are dealing with, their customer base is spread out.
So it's kind of more realistic too. It's like learning how to communicate through, you know, the various, uh, conferencing applications or, or, you know, um, chatting that's kind of like the new way of doing things. And to have to, [01:00:00] you know, to say that the only way to be efficient is to co-locate to me is kind of a antiquated thought.
[01:00:08] Bukola: process for.
[01:00:10] Siara: I, I definitely echo your sentiments, Jenny. Pre Covid. I was, um, I was a, I could never survive working from home. One, because I didn't have a designated work space, and so it was very chaotic trying to get myself in a space where I could be productive. But, you know, through Covid, you know, my husband and I bought a new house.
I have a dedicated, like in buying a new house, I was like, I have to have a home office because we don't know when we're going back to the office. And so, Now that I have this dedicated workspace, I don't have the commute time. I had a, a small baby right before Covid having, I had a newborn, so I was able to keep her home longer.
Um, all of those things culminated [01:01:00] into working from home is probably the best option for me. For like, the place where my family is right now. It's the best option. And if I were to be forced to go into the office, like I, it's one of those things where the thought of going into the office now is like, Ugh, I don't wanna do it.
I have to pack a lunch. I gotta do this. And the whole rigamarole of trying to get there and then when I get there, it's like, oh my God, I've seen everybody. I've been able to socialize. It's been great. I don't know why I don't come into the office more often, , but to be mandate. To have to come back into the office as for whatever reason, I don't necessarily see the value of, of that anymore, when I can be just as productive, if not product, more productive working from home.
But then in some, some instances, I believe there are some roles where it's probably more valuable to be in an office where you're working with your colleagues more closely. [01:02:00] I could see that also as, as a, as a position for companies to say it makes more sense for us all to be in the office, if not five days a week than, you know, we need you to come in a couple of days of weeks.
But I don't know that I would like to be forced to come back unless it made sense.
[01:02:19] MattieCakes: Yeah, I like that we have the ERGs. I think that's probably the most reasons why I would come to the office and have come to the office. Like the Empowers Christmas wrapping event last year was so fun. Um, just getting to meet y'all in person. Like, so I look at going into the office as like, I'm going to probably waste a day and socialize with all the people that I haven't seen.
[01:02:43] Jenni: Yeah. It turns into . Uh, your, we have the community hub where like everybody gathers. It's, it's like, I think I spent 30 minutes, like I said, I was going to leave and it took me 30 minutes to cross the room. Cause I kept bumping into people and catching up and then, okay, I'm leaving, and, [01:03:00] oh, oh, hi. Hi.
And so it just, it's definitely a social day. Um, and so if
I
[01:03:06] Siara: it makes you think, how the heck were we so productive in the office? Prior to, because now it's just like you're just gonna plan to not really get anything done the day that you're in the office because you're bumping into folks and you know, socializing
[01:03:23] Jenni: go every day, that'll get old. Right? Then you'll be like, yeah, I saw you yesterday. So I, I think that would improve if everybody's doing it all the time. But I think that's what the difference is. But
[01:03:35] MattieCakes: And it's not as fun.
[01:03:36] Siara: Yeah.
[01:03:37] Jenni: then It's not as
fun.
[01:03:39] Siara: It's like a whole event now. It's like, I'm gonna put real clothes on. We're gonna plan to be there. The whole thing,
[01:03:48] Bukola: Awesome.
[01:03:49] Jenni: So, uh, is there anything you wanna promote, Cola, that you're gonna be doing in the near
[01:03:54] Bukola: Oh yeah,
So everyone look out [01:04:00] for my next app, it's coming out. It's called Glow Up app. Uh, an app for basically black women to kind of glow up in all areas of their life. So whether it's beauty, hair care, skincare, fitness, um, eating right, being healthy, your finances blowing up, uh, is kind of community based and a goal setting app to kind of just for us to just, you know, just be great in life.
So
[01:04:25] Siara: Yes, black girl magic. I'm here for it.
[01:04:27] Jenni: Yeah. Love it. How can people get in touch with you?
[01:04:35] Bukola: the real app queen.com, so they can go to my website and send me an email. I'm also the app queen on Instagram so they can reach me through.
[01:04:47] Jenni: Awesome.
[01:04:48] Siara: So I know that you're at Afro Tech right now. Are you there just as a participant or are you speaking on a panel or do you
[01:04:55] Bukola: Yeah, I was actually, um, gonna do that if my company sponsored. I was gonna speak on a [01:05:00] panel, but they decided not to sponsor this year, hopefully next year. So I'll probably be speaking next year. But no, just, uh, uh, participant hopefully on, they have an executive track this year, so I'm kind of like going into the executive workshops and kind of like, you know, participating in those.
[01:05:17] Siara: cool. Awesome. Well, if you get on the roster, we would definitely love to, to hear what you have to say.
[01:05:25] Bukola: definitely.
[01:05:26] Jenni: I'm hoping to go next year for sure. Didn't, didn't work out this year, but next year I wanna go.
[01:05:33] Bukola: definitely.
[01:05:35] Jenni: Well, thank you so much for joining us today as well as all of you listening. If you enjoyed this conversation, drop us a line at the Interface Podcast. pros.com or find us on LinkedIn, please rate and review us on whatever platform you're listening from helps us tremendously and we want your feedback to make the show better.
We encourage you to go out and continue this conversation and even start your own. We will meet [01:06:00] you back here on the next episode from our crew to yours. Have a good one.
[01:06:05] Siara: bye