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The Smoke Trail, hosted by Smoke Wallin, is a journey into awakening consciousness, weaving authentic stories and deep discussions with inspiring guests to unlock high performance and perfect health. Each episode delves into spirituality, leadership, and transformation, offering tools to transcend trauma and find your bliss along the way. It’s a reflective space for achieving peak potential and inner peace in a distraction-filled world.
Welcome to the Smoke Trail hosted by Smoke Wallin. Join Smoke on a unique journey of awakening consciousness, sharing authentic stories and deep discussions with inspiring guests. Explore spirituality, leadership, and transformation, tools to elevate your path. Welcome transformation, tools to elevate your path.
Smoke:Welcome to Sedona. It's cool.
Jack:I really like it up here. You know, I was saying, I don't I don't think I know of a more peaceful place on earth than Sedona. I mean, I've been around. I've been everywhere, man. Well, if not everywhere, it's on the list.
Jack:But Sedona, Arizona for me is not only gorgeous, beautiful, but also peaceful. And the energy, I just love it. So I'll I'll be here anytime you want me
Smoke:to be. Well, you're that's exactly why I live here now. Yeah. Smart man. Smart man.
Jack:You can We said that. He's just gonna appreciate it.
Smoke:But, but because I'm here in Sedona, I do get, the occasional guest who wants to come to Sedona and visit. And Yeah. If you were in Walla Walla,
Jack:might be a different story. Or back east in the winter.
Smoke:No. You'd get just as many because everybody loves you. You're a good guy. Well, it is a beautiful place, and, I thought we'd we'd shoot this episode here in the in the front yard and have the Sedona Mountains behind us. And we might get an occasional neighborhood person walking by or a car, but, I think it's worth it to be out here.
Jack:Some animals, maybe? Any animals?
Smoke:I saw a a coyote the other day when I was hiking. Got here in the neighborhood.
Jack:Coyote. Yeah. A coyote. Yeah. That's it.
Jack:Yeah.
Smoke:I think it's always important to, start the conversation with the intentions and set our intentions. And, as you know, Jack, the intentions the intention that I have in putting this this show together is to bring insights, wisdom, knowledge, learnings that I have, that my guests have that can be helpful to other people. And so, you know, for the highest good work, you know, there's things that I wish I knew earlier in life. There's things I still wish I know, but we do. But I I, I really appreciate you, being willing to to to be here and share, and I know it will help people hearing your story and for us to have this conversation.
Smoke:Great. Well, I I would pretty much do anything you asked. So whatever you need me, Phil, pal. Well, thank you.
Jack:But I'm inspired by what you do and your writings and your poetry and how you reach out and your transformation. It's all really cool. Very inspiring. Well, I'm impressed. I should say it that way.
Jack:I'm impressed.
Smoke:Thank you. And and it's just because, in my path, my journey, we'll call it the smoke trail since that's what the show is, I have had the opportunity and the blessing to clear a lot of things in my life, clear a lot of shadows, understand things that were holding me back, and clear them out. And what was revealed to me was perfect peace, an incredible level of joy, and that has caused me to want to share that with others. Of course. So I don't just sit here, and I I could easily piece out here in Sedona and go on my hikes and do my business when I need to do it and, and just be very self contained.
Smoke:But I am called to, to bring forth these lessons, try to bring forth cool stuff, and bring great guests like yourself onto the show to share your insights and wisdoms.
Jack:Thank you. I love what you said. You know, every time I'm doing something by myself that I'm enjoying, whether it's peaceful or exciting, fun, interesting, or historic, anything at all, I said, oh, I wish blank was here. I wish this person was there. I wish because you wanna share that.
Jack:Whatever is great is best shared, especially experiences. You know? So I'm glad. That's that's really wonderful that you feel called to to share that. I'm happy to be a tiny part of it on with this episode.
Smoke:Well, Jack, so you've had a incredible career. You've been able to do all kinds of cool stuff, on television, on film, posting shows, you know, all kinds of really, really, I know, interesting stuff. I know it hasn't always been, walk in the park, and you've had your ups and downs like anyone else, but you've had a incredibly varied career and been been blessed along the way. Absolutely. But it wasn't always like that.
Smoke:And one of the stories you I've heard you tell, but I'd love you to if you would touch on it a little bit is, you know, how did a kid growing up in the Southeast South Side Of Boston end up on television? How'd you end up with the career you had, and and what led you to that? Because I think it's a really cool little story if you can kind of, you know, bring bring the the listeners up to that, like, kinda how you got there. And and I know you didn't think you could do it. I know you had a lot of self doubt that could have held you back, but at the end of the day, you figured out something that that that works for you.
Smoke:So tell us a little bit about that.
Jack:Yeah. I I swear I don't know how I did it because I think that's the danger. When something good happens or you figure something out, you think that's the way or the only way. And a lot of life is luck. Right?
Jack:It's also perseverance and never giving up whatever believing in yourself really means. I I just think it means not giving up. It doesn't mean you're you're the cockiest or most confident or you just won't take no finance and all of that. Because I think all of that's obnoxious. But to feel empowered by something says, I can do this.
Jack:It's not magic. It's not mystical. There's enough magic on Earth, but I think that certain times you have to understand that you you have the power to go forward. And I just didn't know that I could do anything else, but you're right. I had a ton of self doubt when I was a kid, you know, growing up in the D Street projects without a father.
Jack:You might have some issues. You know, you might have some self confidence issues. I didn't have any older brothers to protect me in the neighborhood. Luckily, my mother got me out of there when I was 13, and my youngest sister would move to Arizona, which was so peaceful and quiet. I I couldn't adapt early on because nothing was going on.
Jack:And as a kid, I was. I just didn't sit in the silence and the quiet because Penica's a a one horse town back in 1975. Great city. I love it. But, down the road a bit, right from here from Sedona.
Jack:But I just said I wanna do this, and I just never gave up. I I think it's it's not more complicated than that. I got lucky. I got some breaks. Couple of people, showed, showed belief in me, I guess, and thought he he could do this.
Jack:My first agent was instrumental in me believing in myself in that sense and putting forth this young green actor who she just knew could do it, Not only with acting, but also hosting. She talked to a hosting agent and said, this guy would make a good host. The guy said, I don't think so. And I said, I don't think so. But she believed, and I did it.
Jack:And now I I'm lucky enough to be able to do both now with that. You know? But it's the experiences. I always said that when I came back from a trip around the world wherever I was. I came back, and there's always the experiences with people that enriched me, not seeing the places of the earth, which is cool.
Jack:It's great. Beautiful, Sedona. But it's the experience of being here with you and the nature and, high odds of the animals and all that. That that's that's much more empiric, much more personal.
Smoke:Well, let me let me drill down on that and, I have that early experience. So they you were in Vegas, I think, living with some guys, and you heard about this tryout for a play or something. Tell us that. Like, that that that's a really cool tidbit because you you kinda just did it on a lark almost. Yeah.
Jack:You know, it was a combination. I did it on a lark or a whim or took a flight on it, whatever the yet at the same time, it was always something I wanted to do. You know, I didn't have the confidence to be an actor growing up in South Boston. I was a kid, only 13, and I knew I was too young. I had to finish primary school and high school and all of that.
Jack:And then I was in Phoenix, and I just didn't think I could do it. I met a couple of actors, and they just seemed better than me. They seemed more educated, more stooped, more talented. They could sing and dance and all these other things that I thought an actor had to be. And I realized one day an actor just has to be honest, just has to tell the story through them, in the honest honest way possible.
Jack:So I went on this audition. I was living in Vegas with a couple of buddies, and I said, you know, I'm gonna do it now. Nothing's stopping me. I was 29, almost 30. And I showed up, and I was nervous because it meant so much to me to be able to do that.
Jack:And I I was gonna read a scene, with two other actors and this theater company. What I thought was a big theater company, they did their plays on a basketball floor in a rec center. But to me, it was Hollywood. I didn't know any better. And I was so nervous.
Jack:I was speaking too quiet, and they said speak up. And then I was reading like fun with Dick and Jane, like I've never read out loud before, which maybe I never had. You know, who reads out loud unless you're reading the newspaper to yourself? And I'd said, what do you mean you are leaving me for my brother and I'm marrying him? What a thing to do.
Jack:They thought I was planning to choke him because it was so bad. I knew I was bad. I just walked out and said, this is terrible. I came back a few days later, and they said, you can't come back. We have to call you back.
Jack:Hence the term, callback. So, I said, but I took the book. No. You can't take the book. Well, I did, and I learned some lines, and please just let me do it so I can be better than horrible.
Jack:And I did it, and I said thank you for putting up with that.
Smoke:But this time, you knew the lines.
Jack:I had studied the line
Smoke:Yeah.
Jack:Which is not what acting is, but that's what I thought it was. Yeah. At least being familiar with what I was talking about. And because I went from absolutely terrible to not as terrible, they knew I put in the effort to work that I was passionate for it. Right?
Jack:It's way finished, right, necessarily, not where you start out. And they had seen such a leak. They said that later on, I became friends with Lois Brown, who's the prop master and on the board of the theater. She said, we thought another guy came back in your clothes. That was a different so they gave me a small part, a bigger part than I auditioned for, and that became the journey.
Jack:I knew then I could do it.
Smoke:Yeah. And that that's how a lot of life is. Right? It's, we try, we fail, we we stumble, we get up, we do it again. And then at some point, maybe we have a little success here and there.
Smoke:We we we figure something out. We figure out how not to fall down. And we can carry that forward, and we start to build a little confidence. And that confidence builds over time so that, you know, fast forward, you had the opportunity to, I don't know, nine zero one two o or, you know, you did all these different television shows and various, you know, things, but, like, but you, over time, had confidence that you could you could be there with the top talent of the day. You know, it's the very first one.
Smoke:That play, I thought if I could get that part and do it in front of a live audience, the world opened up all
Jack:of a sudden. You know, I I I tell you a quick analogy. I didn't grow up playing baseball. There's no grass around the D Street project. So stickball, that's it.
Jack:So as an adult, my friends invited me out to play softball, and I was not really good at it beginning. And, it was basically just a singles hitter, and I wasn't you know, because I I just didn't play throwing up. Stick ball is different. And one day during BP, I went for it and I hit a home run over the fence. And my friend said, sarcastically, of course, oh, what are you?
Jack:A home run hitter now? And, you're not gonna do that again. And I started cranking home runs. Only because then I knew it was possible. Yeah.
Jack:I never thought to even try it before. That's how lack of self confidence I had of doing it, and I became pretty decent hitter in that league. And, and I was asked to play on other leagues. Gary Marshall, the creator of, well, Happy Days, Laverne and Shirley, director of Pretty Woman, a bunch of stuff. He saw me and asked me to play on his team because I improved that much.
Jack:So it's not again, it's not about what you can do this moment. Just keep growing whether it's spiritually, mentally, physically, anything. Just keep improving. That's the true journey. It's not it's not a geographical thing.
Jack:It's not a destination. It's not about accumulating money or a big house or whatever. Those things are important to some people, and they're they're important in many ways. You have to eat every day.
Smoke:You have to keep a roof over your head. But it's the journey, the self growth journey that means everything to me. One of the cool things about what you just said was, you know, on a microcosm level, you were just some kid playing stickball, and one day, you connected and you hit a hit it out of the park. And all of a sudden, you knew you could do that. And all and that confidence started to build.
Smoke:So then you became you became a home run hitter like your friends, you know, tease you about. Sure. And I I think that that works in in the world in all kinds of different ways. Sometimes it's something that we stumble upon that we figure out, oh, I can do that. I didn't think I could, and I did it.
Smoke:And now I know I can do it, so I can I'm willing to take the next risk. Sometimes it's like watching someone else do something and be like, wow. They they did that. I could do that maybe. You know?
Smoke:I mean, you could take it all the way to, like, back in the day when the I forget his name, but was it Jesse Owens who broke the the four minute mile? Roger Bannister. Roger Bannister. And, It was impossible. Impossible.
Jack:The human body could not do it.
Smoke:Yeah. And he said, watch me. Yeah. And then a whole bunch of other people were able to do it because all of a sudden, people realized you could do it. I think what Elon's done with, SpaceX and, the, like, just the watching those those those rockets to land, you know, perfectly, and reusing them again.
Smoke:It's like, that's opened up the eyes of the whole world to what's possible. And it's like, oh, well, why wouldn't you do that now? Right? Like, every and so you got a whole space race happening of this whole ecosystem way beyond SpaceX of people inventing things and, like, trying to push the envelope and not taking no for an answer, and I I love that. I I think it's you know?
Smoke:So we can do it in our individual lives. We can do it, you know, every time any one of us, any human does something that is beyond their comfort zone, and they can they can do that in a in a genuine way, I think other people notice it. They're like, wow. Jack did that. Maybe I
Jack:could do it. You know, it's funny too because with acting, I saw many actors growing up, and I just thought they came from another solar system, that I there's nothing like them, and I just couldn't do it. So it took me actually trying, failing miserably, and getting back up on the proverbial horse saying, I can be better. Maybe I can't do it. Yeah.
Jack:I know people still to this day who can act circles around me. They could do every Shakespeare play ever written, but they don't put themselves out there. They they can't take the failure. They don't wanna do it for whatever reason. I didn't care if I failed.
Jack:It's and I don't wanna delve into cliche, though, but as long as I got back up, you know Yeah. Went like this and said, let me try it again. See, that's one thing I was never afraid of. Of course, I have my share of insecurities and fears and everything, but it was never that I'm gonna fail. You know?
Jack:Let me do it at least and then fail and try to get better. Some things I'd never tried, like acting until I was almost 29 or or I wanted to. I played on that league, I don't know, a good three or four or five games before I I hit that home run during BP. So, you know, it's such we're such complex animals. Right?
Jack:We believe or we don't believe or we think we can or we try. But like you say, soon as you see someone do it or you do it yourself, you're so empowered, again, to use that word. You think, why not? Why can't I? And I'd rather be that because you grow through it as opposed to people who think they can do anything.
Jack:I've met actors who every time they go on audition, I'm the best one on earth for this. Really? Centenario, Pacino, and Meryl Streep. Really? You're the best one on earth.
Jack:Absolutely. Because no one knows it. Like, things like that. I think it's a false confidence, you know, whistling past the graveyard. I I don't think that's healthy because then you don't grow.
Jack:Then you make excuses. I didn't get it because they didn't like me or I was the wrong size or I reminded them of their ex wife or ex husband or whatever the it's not that. Just do it for yourself. Individual growth. Everything else doesn't matter to me.
Jack:It's the love you have in your in your life, the love you give back, and and your journey. As Muhammad Ali said, if you're the same man at 40 as you were at 20, you wasted twenty years of your life.
Smoke:Yeah. I love that. The you know, the one of the things that, you know, the this this is targeted whoever it will benefit this this show. But It's benefiting me just talking about it. Well, it's actually this is actually therapy for Jack.
Smoke:Thank you. Me too as well. It, every every time I I have the opportunity to to delve into meaningful topics with people that I have great respect for, it changes me. So it's a it's a it's a great process for me as well. But I was thinking that a lot of the, you know, leaders or up and coming leaders, you know, get into these positions where they're running a big business or they're, you know, they're at the top of their game.
Smoke:They're maybe they're an actor who's done really well or running a show or whatever. And a lot of people have these downs, whether you're CEO of a Fortune 200 company, you know, running a giant company, or you're running your own business, or you're an up and coming aspiring leader in some form or fashion, or maybe you're an individual performer where you're a actor or you're, you know, doing something like that. But there is this self doubt that people sometimes have. And I know I experienced it from time to time over my life in different positions where you've made it. And on the outside world, they're all looking like, oh, look at this.
Smoke:He's he's in charge of everything. He's the, you know, top person and, you know, they're they're waiting for you to give the answer. And, you know, the reality is this self doubt creeps in and people are like, this imposter syndrome sometimes happens, where they're like, well, yeah. Like, the dog caught the car. Right?
Smoke:It's like you're you've got this great opportunity. You've got this great position. You're in this, you know, important position, but then, you know, you're really just the same human that you were when you were a kid. And you, you know, you've got this exterior that's, you know, all polished and successful. But, you know, I think that this is something that a lot of people experience.
Smoke:And I just wonder if you had, you know, any thoughts on that or just, you know, or not.
Jack:I thought I invented impostor syndrome. No. Oh, no. This is this can't really be. They think this, but I feel this.
Jack:And that's what I was talking about self growth. So if you go in super confident, and and I had a friend specifically who was always like that and failed miserably because, he'd never studied, never put the work in, never did it because he died. He was just his natural being was great enough for everything. And I know it's not that. It's a combination of hard work and and put put in the time and be and believing in yourself and, not taking no, as you say, persevering as I said.
Jack:And but, yes, I had a lot of self doubt and still do in many ways. See, that's that's what I'm talking about. Just because you, quote, made it or you're on a great show that people liked or a movie or you have a million dollars in the bank, you're successful, whatever, I still feel like that little kid from the projects. You know, that was ingrained in me. But in many ways, it's good.
Jack:It keeps you grounded or or humble. You don't mistreat people. When you have some self doubt, you know, that can affect anyone. And I think then it's much more about humanity as opposed to, %. I'm right, and my side is right, and this guy is right no matter what.
Jack:I don't know how you could've been like that.
Smoke:Instead of self doubt, maybe it's having the humility to recognize that you don't have all the answers, but you're gonna give it your all in every situation. You know? And so it's a it's a level of humility that says, I don't need to know everything. I don't need to know what the outcome's gonna be, but I know I'm gonna show up, and I'm gonna give it my all.
Jack:I gotta tell you. You know? I I often go through that. And there was a time in my life where I I I think there was you know, you you always have these these watershed moments in your life. Having cancer and going through it for me was one of them.
Jack:But before that, I don't know. Maybe it was the wisdom and the guidance and the counsel of my mother and my grandmother who raised me. But at one point, I said I'm good enough. It was as simple as that. That whether I'm whatever I am is good enough.
Jack:I'm not tall enough. I'm not handsome enough. I'm not talented enough. I can't hit home. Whatever it is, doesn't matter.
Jack:I'm good enough to be just me and live in that and express honestly instead of trying to be someone else, instead of trying to act in a way that was not authentic. And I don't mean acting the profession. I just mean going around life that way. And once I got that, things started to settle down for me. There were a couple other things as well, but that was one of the watershed moments where I said, it's okay to fail, to fall down, to succeed even.
Jack:You know? People are envious when you succeed in certain ways. Sometimes it's your so called friends. And but whatever it is, you're good. And I know it sounds cliche again.
Jack:You're good enough. Just be that because whatever you are is the best thing. It is not about the accomplishments and the successes. It's being as honest and truthful to yourself as you can, and I
Smoke:think you're a better person when you do that. Nobody has an easy road no matter what it looks like on the outside. Everybody's got their challenges. Everybody has things to overcome. But, you know, Jack, let's go back to to your early days.
Smoke:You you were in the projects that may or may not mean anything to people, but, you know, this was a this was a tough place to grow up, South Boston. You had to defend for yourself. You didn't have a father who was around. What where was he? What was going on with that?
Jack:My mother and father met when they were young and had a baby and then got married because that's what you did in the sixties. My mother was only 21 when she gave birth to me. My father was 25. I think he didn't wanna be married and have a family and have children, so he quickly backed out of that arrangement. When I was less than one, I think he left.
Jack:And, so, yeah, so we lived in the projects, which was low income housing, and it's rough in many ways. And they take that out on each other. And there's a lot of alcoholism and domestic abuse much more so so than than I see now. And it was scary place
Smoke:to to It's not that there's not, that's not happening now. It's that you don't see it because you're not in it anymore.
Jack:Sure. Yeah. I mean, I hope we've got better as as a people. I hope there's less alcoholism and domestic abuse. I hope maybe that maybe you're right.
Jack:Maybe there's not. But but for me, seeing that and knowing how horribly people treated each other, I vowed if I ever got out of there, no matter what the circumstances were, because it was generational. My friend was my age. Her mother lived there. Her grandmother lived there.
Jack:But my mother, bless her. Oh my god. She got us out of there. I was 13 because she didn't want it to be that way. And I vowed, but before I knew we were leaving for years, I said, if I ever get out of here, I'm gonna be a good person and just do what I wanna do, not have a family I don't wanna have, not work a nine to five job that I hated.
Jack:I'm just gonna follow my heart, my dreams, whatever that meant. At that time, it was to play for the Red Sox or the Bruins with Bobby Orr, or just do something that made
Smoke:me happy. Got you know, bless your mother. Got you out of there. But, you know, before you left, I mean, you you were, you know, in a tough place. You didn't have a father figure around.
Smoke:There was a lot of abuse and alcoholism and drugs happening. Sure. Probably gang kind of stuff.
Jack:Yeah. There was busing. We were the Yeah. Experiment for fourth bus. Yeah.
Jack:And South Boston was, so we saw a lot of racial interracial stuff, fighting interracial fighting and upset. And the kids that were bused in the South, they didn't wanna be there. The kids that were bused out of it was, I don't know because I'm a kid. I don't I don't know the machinations thereof and how it worked. In theory, it seems like, to integrate people, in a way that, is instructive is a good thing.
Jack:It just didn't work out that way, you know, with the violence and everything else.
Smoke:So I actually lived in Boston when that was happening. Oh, so We we almost crossed paths.
Jack:Yeah. What city did you live in? Where were Jamaica Plain? Oh, JP as we call it. Yeah.
Jack:Yeah.
Smoke:But, that was all happening then too.
Jack:It it was tough. Everybody, though. You know? Mhmm. I I never said that, the world is raining on me, that the universe doesn't like me, that I'm not lucky or anything because I saw so much suffering, and poverty and everything, unhappiness, that I knew I wasn't the only one.
Jack:If you think you're the only one, you say, alright. I'm born under a bad cloud. But, no, when you see it, you say, I don't want this for myself. I wanna try to be better and try to escape if it's possible. Again, self doubt, but I realized it was possible.
Smoke:They're like so I I really appreciate that. The the idea that as a young boy, you know, 10 years old, 11 years old, 12 years old, whatever, living in that environment, but you knew, like, things could be better. You're like, there's a way out. There is a like, you had this in your innately in you that
Jack:you thought you thought. It had to be better. Yeah. I couldn't live there. Yeah.
Jack:You know, I would never run away from my family. But I I knew that I didn't want that because I saw what happened. There was a guy, mister Connolly, lived on the First Floor, had a bunch of kids, miserable because he was not, you know, making enough money to support his family. And he'd go to the bars drinking afterwards as they say, you know, because I was a shoeshine floor. And I would see him at the bar.
Jack:He was happier in that building with his friends having a couple of pints after work than he would be at home with his family. A good guy. I really liked his kids, and his wife was always nice to me. It's not about that. It's the situation.
Jack:He became so ingrained in. He wasn't able to extract himself, and I didn't wanna get to that position.
Smoke:Yeah.
Jack:I said, I know I can make it better, or at least I'm gonna try. I don't want to slip into a comfort zone where, well, this is all life has for me. I knew there was more. For some reason and, again, I give my mother and grandma credit. That.
Jack:And and I think it was them that said Dismore.
Smoke:They always made me think about it.
Jack:And they got us out of there. I just
Smoke:You know some of my story and, having some, you know, as a child, sexual abuse in a family member, and, you know, I've gone public talking about it and, you know, gotten through all that. And what I learned in my process is I forgave everyone and got through that and kind of, you know, it work work through what was, I guess, now in retrospect, the alchemizing process of dealing with your trauma, understanding it, forgiving, dropping all the negative energy that were stuck around it. And it's an alchemical process, and it it it makes you much, more able to sit and listen and be present for others and to have compassion for other people suffering if you've gone through that and and and kind of put your conscious awareness on it. And I know you had some experience maybe somewhat similar or somewhat different, but, I did. You're I did.
Smoke:You're willing to talk a little bit about it.
Jack:Sure. As a child, I I faced that. And I was, it was an older kid, and I didn't know how to deal with it at first to talk about it. And I tried to fight back, and adults didn't believe me. And I told my mother, and she did, but she talked to the guy's mother.
Jack:And she said, no. It's not that. So it was a very convoluted thing in that they try to cover for this guy, and he said he was gonna kill me, murder me, and nobody would care because see what I'm doing to you? No one gives a shit about you. And so I believed him because, the evidence was there.
Jack:It seemed, you know, fairly understood that, you know, no one cared. I knew my mother loved me, but I I thought that, there was a a disconnect there with something. So I went through that. It ended finally, and then I kept it a secret for twenty five years. I didn't know how to talk about it.
Jack:Mostly, excuse me, because of shame. You know, you you feel shameful. I talked about it finally twenty five years later, told a therapist because I knew I had to process it and forgive myself for allowing it to happen. Because as a kid, that's what you feel like that you allowed it to happen or it's your fault somehow. I was certainly told during the whole experience that it's my fault.
Jack:And no one loved me, no one cared about me, all that. And that that sinks in, especially when it's backed up by no one doing anything about it. So, I went through it. I it's not easy to process that and to forgive myself first and then the perpetrator and, and my mother and everyone else who I thought should have protected me. But then I realized she did everything she could.
Jack:She's a wonderful person. She's a great mother. She just didn't understand because she was being lied to by adults. And there was a certain time, you know, you grew up in that era where kids are to be seen and not heard. Right?
Jack:And my I remember once my mother saying to me, look. I know you don't like, you know, this the the going to this situation there, but, you know, I I have to have a have a job, and I have to we have to put a roof over our heads and all that. And and I I felt like I was causing her trouble by talking about it or acting out or whatever. And so I I didn't talk about it anymore at for twenty five years. And then I finally did, and I realized it was okay.
Jack:Because someone said to me, you know, we're only as sick as our secrets. And I was able to express that and not talk about
Smoke:it Yeah.
Jack:With friends. I talked about it with my mother, and she was so sorry it happened. And we had a good cry together, because I know so many people have gone through the same thing in different ways, and maybe still are. But at least now we are being taught to say something. Children are speak up.
Jack:If you see something, say something. So I hope we're getting better as a species and doing less of that to each other. But it certainly shapes who you are more so if you don't deal with it. It it just damages you.
Smoke:First of all, thank you for being who you are, being Jack. And I think your willingness and bravery to confront your issue, understand it, go through therapy, talk through it, get to forgiveness, is a powerful, powerful story of what makes you you and also helps a lot of people. And you might not realize it just because it's your own personal thing. But, like, every time someone experiences something traumatic and they are able to face it and put their conscious awareness on it, they help the world. You you you increase the the vibration of the field by going through this.
Smoke:And I guess it's so don't, not that you are or or said anything this effect, but I wouldn't, underestimate the value of you having gone through that and then frankly being willing to speak about it. You know? One of the things that is, you know, it's there's lots of trauma and there's lots of abuses in our world. I I, like you, focus on how do we make it better, how do we treat people the way we wanna be treated, how is the world getting better? I think it is.
Smoke:I agree. That being said, to have the fortitude and the inner confidence to be able to speak to it and not shy away from the tough issues, is it an important space to hold? Because there's a lot of people that haven't figured that out, haven't dealt with it, don't understand what a child feels like when they're not believed or when adults are lying around them. And, you know, it's the most helpless feeling in the world. It's frankly worse than the act of the perpetrator is the is the lack of belief with people, like, actually believing you.
Smoke:Yeah. Because he was who he was, but the people who
Jack:were assigned to protecting in life, you know, should should have done so. But I give my mother and grandmother all the credit for that because just like I knew I couldn't settle for staying in the project. And by the way, nothing wrong with those people who live there. Some of them are still friends of mine, and, I just didn't wanna be that for the rest of my life to live there. That's all.
Jack:But they put in me that this was temporary. You didn't have to accept this the rest of your life, and my mother proved that it worked several jobs and got us out of there. My grandmother worked several jobs to help us get out of there. So it's the same thing with with with trauma. No matter what that trauma is, I knew that was a temporary situation.
Jack:I knew I had to get past it. It took me a long time, twenty five years, just out of one word about it to be okay, but as long as you do. And so I finally was able to talk about it, grew through that. And I know that, again, that sounds cliche. It's, oh, you're growing.
Jack:It's a growth experience. But it really was because keeping it inside is toxic, and you gotta get it out. And the best part about that whole thing is I didn't go on to abuse someone else like a lot of abusive I didn't take it out on other people. I wasn't a bully. I wasn't mean.
Jack:I I didn't take my problems out on the world. I dealt with them, got past them, and, hopefully, I'm better for it. Yeah. Well, the world's better for it for you having gone through that.
Smoke:Thank you for sharing that.
Jack:Of course. Thank you too for sharing yours. You know,
Smoke:let let's jump around. We're gonna jump to you you're you're the host of the booze traveler. You are the booze traveler. The show has now been changed. It's crafted around you and your personality because you brought this whole humor and humanity relating with humans to it at a level that the original creators of the show didn't understand.
Smoke:But the higher ups got it, and they realized, like, yeah. Let's go with what Jack's instincts are. He was right. You had this incredible run all around the world, drinking in all kinds of horrible things and good things, but some pretty horrible things. I've seen some of the clips and heard a lot of the stories, which we won't really get into here, but, like, it's a it was a very glamorous, cool segment of your life.
Smoke:And you're kind of at the top of your game. You're you're you're running you're you're, you know, you've you've really kind of you're doing well. You're you're, you know, financially doing well. You're traveling all around the world. You've got this like, the world is
Jack:your oyster.
Smoke:And you wake up one day, you're not feeling well, you go in and get some tests and cancer.
Jack:Yeah. Well, let's on the first part, great gig. So honored to be able to do that show and for them to let me basically do it the way, I felt I had to express myself about it, in doing that. Because I always thought it was a celebration of culture and people and places. It wasn't about getting shit faced or drinking to my it wasn't about showing the drink, to me.
Jack:It was about showing the people, through through through the through the drink of the of the locale. Right? And, it was just such an honor. I did it for four years. I did 76 total episodes for travel channel.
Jack:73 of that or or its spin off and three of this other thing. But it was so great because I was having fun having experiences. That's it. You know? It it it wasn't about people recognizing me, although they did.
Jack:It wasn't about having money in the bank, although I did. That's why when it all turned, it didn't devastate me.
Smoke:Well, I I also love just staying on the high point. Like, you were you were that guy who said, if I go to your country or I go to your town and and your thing is this, I'm gonna do it. So you you did all kinds of crazy stuff, but, like, you know, let let maybe the show wouldn't have made you do it, but you drank frogs and you drink goat blood and all kinds of, stuff. But but but it was out of respect for the humans who you were parachuting in with your TV team. Right.
Smoke:It was respect for them and to say, okay. This is what they do. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna I'm all in. And I did it
Jack:so you didn't have to. Thank you. No. I, yes. That's the thing.
Jack:See? When when a culture, a people, a group, a tribe, a village brings me and brings us in, and shares their food, their friends, their family, and I accept all of that. And then this drink that maybe I never heard of was a little crazy or has some weird ingredients. I can't then reject that because the sum total. Right?
Jack:This is what they really do. It's it wasn't a gimmick. It wasn't some, oh, let's play a a joke on that guy, that Jack fella. Let's let's fool them. This they really drank it.
Jack:They really celebrated with it. They did things with it. So to fully immerse yourself in an experience, I think is the best is the best. You you get the most out of it, and you show grace to your host who are happy.
Smoke:But I think that's why the you know, I'm no TV expert, but I think that's why the show worked. I mean, you have, you still have an audience who, like, were like they still watch the old episodes. They're like, when are you gonna come out with another show or whatever? But but, like, you had a a a very dedicated following. It wasn't just because it's fun and drinking around the world, although that was part of it.
Smoke:I think it had a lot to do with the humanity and you connecting with people and and just giving us, like, the, I don't know, your your funny jack humor along the way where, you know, whatever situation whereas you'd look at the camera and go, what am I you know, I'm doing this. You know, like, what? Well, thank you for saying that. People can relate to that.
Jack:Yeah. I I guess that's why. I mean, I I never knew. I'm no TV expert either. You know, I've done it for a while.
Jack:I just knew it had to be an authentic experience. We drank everything we said we drank. I did everything the way it really was. We didn't produce any particular segment in a way to to make it seem like it was something that it wasn't. If I was good at something, some sport or some game, I really was or at least in that moment.
Jack:If I wasn't, I wasn't. But the people, those experiences are all real. They reacted to the way I was acting and vice versa. And it was just it was just the best, and I thought there's no other way to do it. I couldn't be like maybe some other more famous travel host that they wanted me to be like to replicate that success.
Jack:But it's not because, you could copy them and be as good. It was they did that, and there are half a lot of them because they're good at being themselves, and people responded to that. And I thought the only way we could do this is to is to be is to be myself. Sure. Take the notes from the production company and the network when they had them, react to the people, to keep in mind my crew and, well, we have to get this shot this way, Jack.
Jack:Can we do that again? The sun was in a whatever. All of that. Sure. There is it wasn't just go out there and do whatever you want.
Jack:But that being said, to to fight against maybe those who said no. Do it this way. Well, that's how you would do it if you were gonna host it. I I think that I have to do it in in authentic way. And and I'd like to think I'd still be doing that show if I if I didn't get canceled because it was a great gig, but not just a gig.
Jack:It was a great experience to see the world through the eyes of other people, and for them to share that is just a just a great gift. And, I don't miss it in the sense because it's time to move on and do other things. Just like when I lost it, people said, how did you not be devastated? You lost this gig and your money and your health, all like that. And I said, because there are still things I'm grateful for.
Jack:Mhmm. You know? The once you understand the impermanence of life, I think, you then it's okay. You realize you're all gonna we're gonna gain and we're gonna lose everything, and we're gonna die one day, and it's okay. And so once I got that, I said, okay.
Jack:It came. It went. It was a wonderful experience. Time for the next one.
Smoke:It's really it goes to the ancient wisdom, and you just said it in your words and the way you feel it and you experienced it. But I think it's it's something that I wanna highlight, which is, you know, if you go to the Buddha, you go to, you know, the the you go to, you go to, you know, various teachers along the way. It's they all touch on are the ones that I really like touch on this ability to have call it nonattachment. It's not that you're not engaged in your life and you're not engaged in the things that are joyful or, sad in that you're experiencing, but it's the ability to, separate yourself from circumstances because it is impermanent. And to know that these things, good and bad, are gonna happen.
Smoke:It's the cycle of life. And to the ability to you know, like, we have kids right behind us, and I love that. I'm happy that they're in our show. It's okay. Because, like, the joy of those kids, like, that makes me happy.
Jack:If they only know what lies ahead for the rest of their lives. Right?
Smoke:That's right. They're happy. How joyful. Just
Jack:scooting down a hill, on an afternoon at Sedona. Without a care in the world. Good for them. Yeah. No.
Jack:I agree with what you said because it I experienced it. Right? It's not not being connected to someone. That's different than attachment. I I always saw that as or not always.
Jack:I learned it somehow, and I don't know who who who gave that to me. But, you know, attachments really are the source of all suffering. When you need it to be a certain way, I think that's what attachment means. Expectations, when you say, oh, it has to be like that. That person has to act that way.
Jack:This has to go this way. I have to do that. When it's it don't have to be about routine now. Talking about it has to be that way, then you suffer inside because you think it's supposed to be another way. But, really, it's perfect the way it is.
Jack:Right?
Smoke:And we're not in control. Right? And and Can I tell
Jack:you something about that? Yeah. So I was on a a podcast, another one. Not as good as yours. They were strangers.
Jack:I didn't know them. I love doing this with friends of mine, especially great friends of mine. But, they said to me, oh, no. We will follow on your show, and we loved it and this and that. When they were done talking about that, they said, now let's get to you and who you are and what you've been through.
Jack:I said, sure. What do you wanna talk about? Well, you went through cancer and you lost a show. I said, yeah. And we read all your interviews afterwards.
Jack:You never seem down at the press, or you wanted to kill yourself. You never bitched and moaned about anything. And and I felt down because I I didn't wanna have cancer. Don't get
Smoke:me wrong.
Jack:By its very definition, it's trying to kill you, cancer. But I knew I could pass it. It's a speed bump, not a roadblock, as I said. So they said, well, how do you get past that? How how because because there are things I'm grateful for.
Jack:I didn't have to find things for them. There's still things people and circumstances and Things in my life, I'm still grateful for. They said, how do you control yourself to do that? How do you control your mind to think like that? I said, you don't.
Jack:You don't. The truth is we have less control than we'd like, but more power than we know. Yeah. And once you know the difference, everything changes. And they said, oh, that's great.
Jack:Where did you see that? Is it where's it from? The Buddha, the Eckhart? Is it from Rumi? Is it where did you get that?
Jack:The bible? Where did you get that? Some positive thinking? I said, no. I just it just came to me.
Jack:This is what I believe that. So I'm just saying it now for the first time. I don't think it's and they googled it, and it never been said before. Apparently, not in a publication or something. I said, yeah.
Jack:I just they said, oh, that's great. Can we steal it? You're not stealing it. It's an idea to live that if that you know, if that's how you wanna live live that. And so once I realized the difference between power and control or empowerment and the need to be attached in expectations, then things change.
Smoke:There's there's so much wisdom in what you just said and the power of being able to hold your space no matter what the situation, good, bad, different. Doesn't mean we don't have, like, preferences. Like, oh, I wanna close this deal and make a million dollars on this project, or I wanna get this part, or, you know, you know, I want the audience to love, my show or to, you know I I gave a big talk in Istanbul as you know, and, yes, all the YPO people, and and I wanted it to go well. I really wanted it them to I wanted to connect with them.
Jack:That's just know. Yeah. But but
Smoke:I was but I was okay. Like, I'm like, if I if it helps one person if this show connects with one person who hears this conversation that we're having and it gives them a little hope or a little inspiration or a little, oh, I could think about my situation a little differently, then that's all worth it. So we have preferences, but if we can it's not a overnight thing, but decrease our attachments to outcomes, our task is the things and people and events, and be there in the flow of life. Because what we know is that the universe is gonna send us all kinds of things to learn from. And some of them are gonna be beautiful, and some of them are gonna be hard.
Smoke:And it's how we respond to them that matters, not not what they are because we all have them. There's not a single human that gets out alive. Like, we're we're all headed the same That's it. That's right. The same program.
Smoke:I this author who I really respect a lot, Jim Finley, who's written in a number of books about the mystics and, studying our Thomas Merton back in in the monastery. And he tells a story about, the this guy goes up to he's on a mountain, and they hand him a quiver of arrows. And they say, you know, fire them over the hill there. And he fires off all these arrows, but he can't see over the hill. He goes up to the top of the hill, and he looks down and every single arrow was a bull's eye on this target.
Smoke:Every single arrow that he he sent. And he's like, wow. Like, well, that's death. We're all gonna hit the bull's eye. Everybody is is headed there.
Smoke:So what do you what do you think about that? I I for me, I'm like, okay. We're all gonna die. So we got this time between now and then. We don't know what's over the hill.
Smoke:We don't know when it's gonna happen. We know what's so we have to live our life. We have to shoot the arrows. We're all gonna get there. So let's live today.
Jack:That's great. You know, again, probably from my mother, grandmother. I'm not sure exactly. But when I learned to be present, what you just said, to live in the moment, not for today. It doesn't mean I'm gonna spend all my money because I'm not gonna live tomorrow.
Jack:It's not that. It's it's being helpful, of course, and and being aware and mindful, self awareness, all of that. But but they say the highest form of sanity is being in the moment, being present.
Smoke:Mhmm.
Jack:And once I started being present, each moment was more filled. Each day, I re remembered things better because I was locked in listening. And it's not that you have to be laser like focused like a like a an eagle on a mouse down in the field. It's not that. It's just being grateful for that moment, not thinking about the past or the future.
Jack:Sure. Those are always there. You are still remembering some of the things from the past, and you're thinking about what you have to do in the future. You don't wanna let go of that. But to live there is not good, I think.
Jack:To live in the present, I became more fulfilled and and happier. I think that's isn't what's more important than that? I I
Smoke:can't that's such a great point that I think is worth, you know, repeating in a different way, which is, you know, there's a lot of depression. There's a lot of anxiety in our world today. We all have friends and family members who have experienced that or maybe we have at different times. And and and but if you think about it, almost all depression is tied to living in the past. Almost always rehashing stories Sure.
Smoke:That are like, oh, this happened to me. This happened to me. Or this didn't go right or I didn't do this or you know, it's mostly we're hard on ourselves, but it's just rehashing old stories. Or we're thinking about what might happen that's gonna go bad. What's gonna happen tomorrow?
Smoke:Am I gonna be able to get this deal? Am I gonna be able to close the sale? Am I gonna get the part? Sure. And you and if you live in that in that future moment all the time, that's anxiety.
Smoke:If you live in that past moment all the time, that's depression. And the perfect middle spot is, like, you don't forget them. You know them. They're a part of you. You you have that.
Smoke:You can think about the future. It's not you can't ever go there. It's just don't live there. Live now. Live being
Jack:present, open, and awake. And that's very practical, isn't it? Because if you spend the present depressed about the past, anxious about the future, overly so, then this moment, it's gonna be something you're worried about because you blew this moment. Right? So in the near future, you're gonna look back and say, I was worried about this and that.
Jack:You know? I don't know the scientific the the numbers behind it, but they say eighty five percent of the stuff they worry about never really happens anyway. And of that 15%, it's hardly ever as bad as you think. Right? And that's not to just be carefree.
Smoke:Not only that, Jack. I'll I'll I'll I'll one up you on that, which is a lot of the things that we think about. The more you put your energy into something, the more it manifests. So what that means is if you spend all your time rehashing the past, you're you're just bringing up that same emotion, that same negativity. Your body, your, subconscious doesn't know the difference between something that happened before, something you're thinking about that happened before.
Smoke:Same thing with the future. If all you're thinking about is what might go wrong, you're actually putting energy into making it go wrong. It doesn't mean you can't be aware of, like, oh, here's all the things that could happen. Fine. But to be put to energize those things, you're actually creating them.
Jack:Good point. Yeah. You know, I didn't really thought of it like that. You know, like you say, there are many different ways to to get to a to get to a, a result. But I'm sure that I spoke things into existence before.
Jack:Like, oh, this is gonna happen. This is gonna happen. And then it did. You know? So I think that's great bit of wisdom there.
Smoke:Yeah. And it works in good for good things and for bad things. You know? So, like, a lot of the positive things we manifest into existence.
Jack:Oh, let's do those then. I'm with them.
Smoke:Let's do some positives. Well, let well, to that point. And and and and thank you for sharing, and I and, you know, we we've barely touched on it, but your your story of how you dealt with cancer, your attitude about, like, the treatment. I I I just wanna say one thing because I it's you've said it in more interviews and it's out there. So, like, it it's not new ground, but I the one thing I always will always remember is when you were getting the chemo and they told you all the bad things that could happen and how you should feel and everything else, And you were just, like, peaceful and just there, and you were you looked at it as this is helping me.
Smoke:This is this is helping me. This is gonna do what I want to do. And people were like and all the nursing staff were like, what's wrong with this guy? Like, you're supposed to your hair is supposed to fall out. You're supposed to be sick.
Smoke:You're supposed to be terrible. And for you, it was like you were like, you love the medicine. You're like, bring it. Help me. And, you know, you were thankful for it.
Smoke:Yeah.
Jack:You know, some people were taking that chemo needle as if it was a lethal injection. And I knew it was gonna make me sick visually. Right? But I knew deep down it was gonna help. So I welcomed it in and just let it go out, and they said, no.
Jack:It's but I tell you, a big inspiration, and I don't know how many times I've said this before, maybe never. I don't know. Right across the way from me because chemo rooms are big. Right? There's this poor little old lady.
Jack:She had a knit cap on because she was bald. She was so frail, and you wake up from the chemo because you go in and out of sleep. And she woke up crying so she must had a dream or a thought or realization about something or maybe she knew she was dying if she was. I don't know. But she was just bawling her eyes out.
Jack:And I just looked at her, and I just felt so terrible for her. And I would wave to her when I come in, I'd see her. After that, I started saying hi because you never wanna break a barrier, you know, to go pass you know, if they wanna just be private. And I said, that poor lady, I don't have it nearly as bad. And, again, I know that when I'm supposed to compare, comparison is the thief of joy.
Jack:Right? But I knew that if she could get through it, I could is what I mean. You know? And then people told me the way you got through it, Jack, made me understand I could get through it, not just cancer, but anything. Yeah.
Jack:And people broke to me and reached out and said, you were so brave, although I wasn't. But I just had to go through it. Right? Because because we did it in exclusive with Us Weekly, and that's the big story. That's when it broke publicly.
Jack:And people say, oh my god. I never knew. And now I know I can go through it. And it was an inspiration just like that lady inspired me. Yeah.
Jack:Didn't mean to. Was just expressing her truth. Right? Honestly. And so when I was that in the interview, I didn't realize, just like you said, who you could help with just really being truthful about what you're going through.
Smoke:You know, it's really the difference between you know, it's it's the resistance that we have internally or that we create that causes the suffering. So you had to go through a very physical, you know, you know, process to get through that. There's lots of situations in life where things don't go the way we, quote, wanted them to go. And it's the resistance to that. It's the it's the visceral fight of, like, well, I don't I don't want that to be.
Smoke:I don't want to have this disease. I don't wanna be sick. I don't want this or that to happen. It that is causes the suffering. The suffering is the resistance.
Smoke:Once you accept the fact, like, okay. I have this. What's the best way through? How do I get through this? As you said, like, you you had to go through it.
Smoke:Through it. There's no way around it. No. But going through it with that perspective is is why you're here today,
Jack:in my opinion. I never denied it. You know, like, some people say, oh, I don't have it and f cancer and all that other stuff. Okay. If that's what you wanna do, that's great.
Jack:I'm not gonna tell you otherwise. But for me, it was like, okay. It's just a thing. As someone said to me, I didn't make this up, you have cancer. It doesn't have you.
Smoke:Yeah. Right? Love that.
Jack:So I just went through it, and I said, okay. How do I what's the best way to get past this? Let's be positive about that. And that's what I did. And I went through it, and I did lose my hair, and I never got sick.
Jack:And I think it's because the mental preparation I put into it and still retaining gratitude about all these other things I still had in my life. Not being depressed that I lost the show, not being anxious that I might die from it. Thank you
Smoke:for that, Jack. And we're we're coming to the end, but I feel like we could talk for hours and hours and hours and I Absolutely. We have. I I would Just not here. I would love it for you to come back on at some point.
Smoke:I'd be happy to. Continue the conversation. We can delve into into other things. But one of the things I know, you you you're passionate about you've been working on a new you you wrote a script. You've been working on this new project.
Smoke:Can you tell us anything about that? Is it you're allowed to are you able to talk about it yet? Sure. Because it's a
Jack:good thing. Yeah. It's yours.
Smoke:I know it's yours.
Jack:No one's paid me to shut up about it yet. I wrote a script with my friend, Tony Denison, with a lot of inspiration and help, my other friend Frank Menya. We all put this, put a lot of time and effort into it. And, we got it out there. A couple of networks are looking at it as a TV pilot.
Jack:So we'll see what happens. Got a great cast that said they would do it. I as a matter of fact, they had a reading in Los Angeles, and we had stars in just about every role because they responded to the material. I mean, you're doing doing that for nothing. You're going into a theater, and you have fans there, wanna talk, and get your order, and they all did it.
Jack:And it was just so humbling that this little thing I put on paper with help with my two friends that that it became, something that just a a piece of art that that people responded to. And we had 75 seat theater, a 20 people showed up, and we didn't even invite people. It was industry and things like that.
Smoke:What I love is, it's like watching manifestation, from the germ of an idea energized with passion coming into reality. And I've been so I've been watching it. You know, you were writing it on your phone. Yeah. You know, like, I'm like, how does he type how does he write?
Smoke:I've, like, the whole thing I know. I'm like, like, I don't know. That's not crazy. And and and just watching it come together and then, you know, and now it's, like, at a point where you've got all this interest and there's lots of people involved and who knows where it will end up, but I but it's it's been really fun to watch. And, and and I'm looking forward to seeing it on the big screen or television or whatever.
Jack:Even if it doesn't, it's it was still an expression. Right? And I wanna give Tony Denison and Frank Manuel a lot of credit because they had a lot to do with it too. But we'll see if we if a network picks it up. If not, I converted it along with those guys into a feature film.
Jack:I'm talking about it. That's why I'm listening first person. But, it's a feature film, so we might get it done as a feature too. So, yes. Trouble man movie, I think, at yahoo dot com is the email address if you wanna ask questions
Smoke:or be able What are the other ways that people can follow you, get in touch with you? Oh, yeah. Or, like, where what's you have a website? Do You have a Don't have that yet. Social media?
Jack:Social media. Yeah. Southie Jack, because I'm from South Boston. S O U T H I E
Smoke:We'll put it in the show notes. J a
Jack:c k
Smoke:All the links there.
Jack:Southie Jack at, on Twitter or x, in Instagram, and Facebook is my face. Because a lot of Jack Maxwell's apparently. Like, a ton of them. Yeah. And, so, yeah, find the right one, I guess.
Jack:Or maybe not. If you like him better, follow him. I don't know. But, yeah, it's it's been a wonderful endeavor to come back from what I went through and to, again, some artistic, creativity expression, and to have it well received is the bonus. But to be able to do that and speak honestly about it in the thing that I had never done really before, again, all part of the big blessing that that I've been graced with, and I couldn't be more grateful for all of it.
Smoke:Well, I couldn't be more grateful than having you here on this beautiful day here in Sedona and Thank you. Sharing a little bit of your wisdom and journey, with others. And I think, it's gonna help some people. You never you never know. Like, you never know what little germ or little aspect of the the nugget that comes out of the conversation.
Smoke:But, hopefully, it, rings to someone's, deeper self. Something that, like, if they're struggling or you're dealing with a sickness or you're dealing with, you know, challenges, there's always a way through. And it's don't resist it. Go through it.
Jack:Always. Don't give up. Don't give up. Don't ever give up. I'm living proof that you can get through anything.
Jack:And maybe not everyone can, and maybe I had an easy route. But the fact that you said it yourself mentally, keep that that attitude, that living through it, not being depressed, not being anxious, or not that much, living through it is is the the better path. We've learned that from our suffering, right, to let it go and living through it is the better path, and that's why we're both here now. It was real pleasure, man, man. Thanks for having me.
Smoke:Thank you, brother.
Jack:Let's do it again. Right? You promise?
Smoke:Yes. Alright.
Jack:Let's hold him to that. Alright.