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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
Dan 00:00:00 It's good to talk. And conversations can be invaluable for holding teams together, but it's hard to find the time for conversations in these busy times and also across time zones if you're working globally. So it's even more valuable now to make sure that that time is really well spent. Well, our guest on this episode of Why Not Me is Diana Anderson. She was a founding member of the International Coaching Federation, and she's a lifelong proponent of building the mindsets and skill sets for high quality conversation. Furthermore, she believes that if we do that, we can actually change the world. Hello and welcome back to We Not Mere, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
Pia 00:00:49 And I am.
Dan 00:00:51 Sorry I had a slight croaky ness there. I realized in my little intro because I am recovering from a very bad case of man flu or although I did catch it from you, I think when I saw.
Pia 00:01:04 You, I think the blue actually was lesbian fused blue. I know exactly which.
Pia 00:01:09 And you got it.
Dan 00:01:09 Bad love how it was so brutal. Exactly. So yeah, it nearly killed me. So. Yeah. But anyway, it's it's it's improving, but, Yes, but as you know, it takes a long time to, to go, so. Yes. But how and how are you doing.
Pia 00:01:25 Well now I am over there. I'm, I'm, I'm over the, the the lesbian flu and, Yeah. So I've just come back and maybe we'll talk about this another stage I've returned from, from the forest. And four days of being out on the land and and survived and thrived. So it's. You don't get anything to distract you. But I am this weekend because.
Dan 00:01:47 Oh, yes, you.
Pia 00:01:48 Have a partner and I going to watch manosphere with Louis Thoreau. He is my.
Dan 00:01:53 Dad. And talk about that another time favorite.
Pia 00:01:56 You know, in terms of sort of Invested in investigative journalism the way he interviews. I saw him with Dame Judi Dench on the plane, and this man is just his ability to be so present in a conversation.
Dan 00:02:12 It's such a great intro for this topic, actually, that we're talking about today, but I think manosphere is going to be, yeah, a real challenge. Juliet's my wife said she's not watching it. And in a way I can understand why. Because it's sort of, so depressing to see that people can hold that world view and, and, and sort of profit from it. But equally, yeah, you have a boy, so you need to be aware of it. And I know that, you know, they've done this test haven't they. They've sort of yeah. If you, if you set up a profile on social media, as a 12 year old, 13 year old boy, whatever you're allowed to be, I can't remember. but within half an hour, you're going to get misogynistic content thrown at you. It's just crazy. So, yes, there's some weird worldviews out there. Yeah, it's it's not good. Yeah, I know, particularly as you nearly have one.
Pia 00:03:04 Terrifying.
Dan 00:03:05 Terror. It's a fantastic segway in the loop. Can we all be more a little bit more? Louis Theroux I think would be a good topic, actually, for this this conversation, which is with Diana Anderson and, she has a a long history of really focusing on the conversation through coaching and now through her latest work, which is even broader, thinking about how we talk to each other and the potential that that has. So, yeah, let's go and have a listen to this conversation about conversations.
Pia 00:03:39 And a very warm welcome to Diana Anderson. Welcome to the show, Diana.
Dianna 00:03:44 Thank you. Great to be here.
Pia 00:03:46 And and this is actually this is a topic very close to Diana myers hearts. This is all about conversations and, and the power of conversations and then some of the things that might get. As humans, we can tie ourselves up in difficult situations, can't we? So I think this is going to be interesting, but there's nothing like humans to mess up a conversation. So, yeah, so I'm really looking forward to that.
Pia 00:04:11 And that's, that's right at the heart of all of the work that we do. before we do that conversation starter card. So I hope this one doesn't, flummoxed you too much. And I hope Mr. Hammond has been kind to you.
Dianna 00:04:25 Of course. Me too.
Dan 00:04:26 Of course. It's totally randomly chosen. yeah. It's not accidentally. Exactly. Although I might have had a few goes at it, as usual. my perfect day. Diana. Welcome to the show. By the way, what is your perfect day?
Dianna 00:04:40 Oh, my perfect day. Wow. We'd probably begin with some quiet time. I love to just wake up and with some reflection and exercise and just get myself centered in the world and, dumb. It would probably be just a fun explore somewhere with my partner. I love to discover new things. Art. We live in a wine country here. There's some really fantastic vineyards in the area, so it would be discovering something I'd never experienced before with someone I love. and probably closing it off by cooking together and maybe enjoying one of those lovely bottles of wine and a great conversation.
Dianna 00:05:20 So super simple, super high.
Dan 00:05:23 I love it, I love it.
Pia 00:05:24 I love it actually sounds very similar to mine I think.
Dan 00:05:28 Yeah, that sounds wonderful. Yes, love, love the appearance of food in the middle of that. I think that appealed to all three of us by the sound of it. Yeah. and and you are? Well, maybe you could get to this in your little bio. Tell us where you are now, but also how you got to this place. Give us a little bio on, on.
Dianna 00:05:44 Diana, I am actually a Canadian. even though I live in the United States, I'm an American Canadian. And I came to the United States, after doing an MBA and had the opportunity to do large scale re-engineering in the early 90s, which just taught me a ton about change as a system. And I was really fortunate. after I left consulting to open up a newspaper in the mid 90s in Houston, Texas, and read one of the very first articles about this absolutely new profession called coaching.
Dianna 00:06:19 And I was intrigued from the the get go. And so I'm a founding member of the International Coach Federation. I began my coaching career in the mid 90s, and after about a decade of coaching, a couple of things happened. One is I got invited to co-author, oh, the first ROI book on coaching and how it added value. So it took me deep into reflection on what made coaching work. And it was also a time where I kind of look back at a decade of coaching and went, you know, what I'm always doing is basically teaching everyone to do what I do, which is take a coaching based approach to their conversations. And what I discovered was that when people did that, not only did they, you know, really grow and transform, but change happened around them. And it kind of made my head explode when I really realized that every single human being really just needs a basic set of coaching skills, and that coaching based approaches to leadership is really what makes change happen. And so that really got me into the challenge of how do you scale something that at that time everyone believed you had to have about 200 hours of training to do and you had to be professional.
Dianna 00:07:28 So it took me about five years of exploration until I finally cracked the code and created this very simple process for having conversations called Untying the Knot. And I know we'll get into it today, so I won't tell you too much about it just yet. but I was able to scale that and started selling it to like, fortune 500 companies who put hundreds or thousands of people through it to wire up what became known as coaching cultures. And so did that for quite some time. And then after the pandemic, it's interesting. I kind of step back and look at the world again and saw that change had become so much more complex, and that people were dealing with just layers and layers of change and were really struggling with how to make it happen. And that's when I realized it was time to take untying the knot and really begin to expand it and offer it to people as a shared language that navigates the human side of change. And so that is my current challenge right now, is really kind of convincing people that we can do change together if we learn how to talk together.
Dianna 00:08:35 So that's where I'm at right now.
Pia 00:08:38 That's really impressive. And against a backdrop where sometimes we don't know how to have those conversations and we're given divisive opinions and views, and it's difficult to find that common ground. And so we don't talk. We just make a judgment, which is is not the way to go.
Dianna 00:08:55 Yes. Yeah. So many of the approaches we use right now, actually, are, are the opposite of what we need. Just as you're saying it, it pushes us apart. It causes us to take sides rather than look at commonalities and actually find ways that we can align and make change happen.
Pia 00:09:14 So why, from your view? Why do conversations matter? I mean, we can all answer that sort of like love piece of mung beans, but from the work that you've done. What do you see.
Dianna 00:09:26 Well what I'm seeing right now is that to put it kind of over simply maybe changes really changed. All right. So the kinds of conversations that we used to have back in, you know, before the turn of the century was around the kinds of change I was doing back then, which was re-engineering, which is super straightforward, very linear, very logical, very predictable.
Dianna 00:09:47 And conversations looked like that, too. They were linear, logical, predictable. and we've kind of held on to those expectations. That conversation should look like that. Only now we are swimming in complexity. And the very definition of complexity is that there's so many inputs. You cannot predict an output, which means you've got to have conversation to find your way through. I mean, it all comes down to people being able to instead of just solve problems, talk about possibilities, explore what's really in our way. it's an exciting time because everything's getting reinvented. So we need to be able to talk about it, and we are ill equipped to have the kinds of conversations we need to have right now. And that's why it's so important now, foundationally, we learn to have really different conversations in this moment in time.
Pia 00:10:41 And what stops us, what's getting in the way of for us as human beings from having that? What's the thought process?
Dianna 00:10:49 Yeah, I would say I would say it's our worldview, if you will.
Dianna 00:10:53 So. So how we look at the world, the assumptions and beliefs that we have. If you go into a conversation thinking it's your job to have the right answer, when the argument have, you know, get your way. You approach it very differently than if you come in with more of a curiosity and compassion. So if you if you approach it and go, oh my, my job here is to explore what I would say, what are the not's? Like, what's not happening, what's getting in our way. and get curious about how the other person sees the world so that you're understanding where our disconnects and we're focusing our energy, not on solving the entire thing, but on tying those, the first knots, the first challenges that we've got. So it's a completely different way of looking at the world. And that's why in our work, we wire up a very different worldview, both about leadership and change as the beginning and foundation for a different conversation.
Dan 00:11:50 I think that's that sounds great.
Dan 00:11:52 And I think where I sometimes find a challenge is when those. When my sort of point of view is somehow attached to a tied permanently to one of my to my values, if you like. So and I find I think that means I find it difficult to, to let go enough to be open to that other side of things, because there's a, there's a thing that I'm attached to. Is there any way. How do you if you think about the being of this and preparing yourself to be better in these conversations, how can you sort of keep talking about not stuffy but untying that? How do we how do we let that go? If you like to be free enough to explore someone else's point of view.
Dianna 00:12:37 I think it begins with the fact that you don't have to let go of your own in order to appreciate someone else's, that, that And what you really want to appreciate is you're thinking about someone else. It's like what matters most to that person. Like what's important to them? what's keeping them from getting what they want? And how can we find some common ground here? So it's not about being right or wrong as much as it is.
Dianna 00:13:06 Looking for commonalities in what matters to others and using that as a shared, you know, jumping off place to explore how to move forward with them.
Pia 00:13:15 And I agree with Dan that that's what sometimes happen is, is that we're in a sort of competitive mindset and our ego takes over. and then we almost justify the way that we're having a conversation. So we go into the conversation justifying rather than that curious spot.
Dianna 00:13:34 Right. If you come in thinking of it more of an argument to be one, then then, you know, you come in kind of ready to make your point. Maybe it's just a good place for me to explain a little bit about and tying the knot, which is the process that I created, because part of why I created it was to help people find where is that leverage point for change in this conversation. So there's just three kinds of knots. There's things that people do not see. So something that someone's not aware of. so maybe someone you're in conversation with doesn't even see that there's a possibility that you're aware of.
Dianna 00:14:08 So they don't see it. They're not aware. Then there's do not want knots which your fears are concerned. So it may be the thing that's keeping someone from moving forward is a fear of being wrong or looking silly or, you know, feeling stupid. And then the last knots are do not know knots, which are skill based knots which are when somebody may not know how to do something. And so when I enter into a conversation or anyone enters into a conversation, if something's not happening, if we're not agreeing, if we're not moving forward, there's a knot, it's going to be one of those three kinds. Okay. So your job is to just start exploring. Oh, is it just this person doesn't see something, you know, is there an assumption of belief that they have that's maybe out of alignment with where we're trying to go? Or is this a fear? Is there something that we're talking about is causing this person to feel frightened? And in which case, I'd like to explore what that is, because moving forward is going to help.
Dianna 00:15:03 I'm going to have to help them address that fear in some way. So but now I know what I'm focused on. Or it may be skill based. And frankly, those fears and skills are usually tied together. It's often where we're afraid of the things we don't know how to do. So one of the things that is powerful, I think about and tying the knot, is it really helps us focus in on where that that place is, where change is going to happen.
Dan 00:15:25 And how do you uncover where that knot is? What's the sort of how you approach a conversation with the best way to, to, to to sort of locate that if you identify it, I guess.
Dianna 00:15:37 Yeah. So you want to explore how the other person sees the world. One of the things that we really help other people understand is that everybody has their own unique worldview. All right. Like each of us, whatever we've done in the world, you know, the the crises, we've experienced it, you know who we've associated with all these things wire up our worldview.
Dianna 00:15:59 So our assumptions and beliefs about how the world works. And when you go into a conversation, the first thing you've got to do is just be curious. Ask yourself, how does this other person see the world? Or one of the questions I like is, how is whatever this person is saying or doing? How could that make sense to them? Like, what would they have to believe is true for that to make sense to them? So I'm starting to just sort of, you know, like drop myself into, to look through their eyes and not to say if they're right or wrong, just like, like, how does this work? And that helps me begin to know where to take the conversation. So it's just great open ended questions. You know, tell me more about that. How do you see it? What is it that you want from this? Just anything that gets the person to start talking about their perspective is helpful.
Dan 00:16:47 And just one stepping back a little bit. Quite often, if these things are.
Dan 00:16:53 Sometimes the conversation is set up to be combative. How have you got any tips on, taking that emotion out of the room before the in order to make the conversation work? Is there? Are there any things that really work to just get people to take a breath or whatever? yeah, because it can be quite difficult to take that that expectation of friction out before you, before you start.
Dianna 00:17:18 I think the thing you are most in control of is yourself. if you come in and you're ready for a fight, someone else will pick up on it and they're going to get their hackles up, too. So I say, get yourself centered. You know, get get really quiet. Come in with the intention of finding connection. Come in with an open presence. and you set the tone with how you act before you even open your mouth. You've set the tone for where that conversation is going to go.
Pia 00:17:50 That capacity to center yourself, that's a skill in itself. It is because if the amygdala has taken over and you're feeling dysregulated you're going in for the kill.
Dianna 00:18:03 You should stop because all you're going to create are nuts. Yeah. You know, like I just say, if you, you know, if if you are tied up in knots yourself, you should stop and untie your own. Like, why are you so upset? What is bothering you about this? Go have a conversation with somebody else. Get yourself clear. What is it you want to do or accomplish? Go get some coaching yourself. And because until you can enter a conversation with a clear intention of what you're hoping and but doesn't have to be to solve the whole thing, it may be my intention is just to create a solid connection with this person that we can build on. And and for me to understand what's important to them, maybe that is success for this conversation and that success I will build upon. and as I as we build trust, we will build the capacity to explore deeper.
Pia 00:18:57 And I guess that's it's quite ironic given our sort of, you know, world events and our world leaders behavior, which looks the antithesis and the opposite of, of this centered behavior.
Pia 00:19:11 So it's hard for leaders to have somebody to actually look up to these days. Yes.
Dianna 00:19:18 I think if you look around, it is hard. You know, when I look at the world right now, what I see is sort of the the nth degree of this worldview that we have, that we're playing a zero sum game and winner takes all and, you know, like whatever it takes away. I just I think things are breaking down for us to have the opportunity to build up something different and new. Yeah. And so I would invite people rather than focusing on. I mean, it's just scary. It's scary to watch this happen. It's frustrating. And consider it tilling the ground to plant new seeds. And you got to ask yourself, what do I want to be a seed for? Do I want to be a seed of continuing the anger and continue to join this game? Or am I going to just stop playing this game and start really working for something that works better for all of us? And that's your choice.
Dianna 00:20:15 I mean, you're completely in charge of you and what you bring to the world and how you bring it. And I would just encourage people, if you want to be something different, if you want to see something different, be something different.
Dan 00:20:25 Do you hear any counter opinions? Diana? Anyone saying this doesn't make sense or that that you've just, you know, that actually advocating for advocate advocacy, if you like to sort of know you need to, because I was with a group today, and I sort of felt there's still that sort of slightly that sense that we've all got to have our thoughts really well ordered. And there's that executive presence thing. And do you get any pushback from that side? I've spoken or unspoken.
Dianna 00:20:54 You know, mostly for me, I just teach the approach and I am less involved with how people are using it. So it's harder for me to go out and say, in a way it's it's powerful just to teach people a process and allow them to use it to work it out.
Dianna 00:21:09 One thing I'm really clear about is I. I am not the answer. I don't have the answers. We have the answers. They're embedded in all of us. We there's just so much we have to talk about. Like, I don't know what the answer is, but I would encourage people that are having those challenges if they could speak untying the knot, that that would be a good a good place to begin the conversation. Like what is our shared intention here? Are we going to what are we going to hold each other accountable for? Is it always being right? Always, you know? Or are we going to agree that, you know, highly complex world? What we have to do is actually talk about what's possible and have really honest conversations about, you know, like what's really going on here. And that is the thing that's going to move us forward. So I think our first conversations really need to be about how we have conversations together and what our agreements are around those.
Pia 00:22:02 And I think that that takes us almost full circle back to the beginning of this, the after the conversation.
Pia 00:22:08 So what are you finding? What is people's desire to have a conversation, or do they see it a little bit like adolescent texting, which is as, as short as possible and, you know, to the point and fairly indecipherable, indecisive, honorable and blunt. but yeah, what's your because I'm, I question whether we're losing by fracturing of the way that we're living. We're losing the capacity to have conversation. It's a natural, innate, probably experience to talk, but to have a conversation, I'm not sure that that we are being that we're living lives that are that are encouraging that.
Dianna 00:22:51 Yeah, that I mean, there's so many things that go into how people approach conversations, just as you're pointing out. Yeah, you know, how they've been raised. And I would even say, you know, because I work more in corporate environments, the the culture of the organization you're in, is it does it feel like safe to have a conversation or have is the culture so, punitive or rigid that, you know, that feels like threatening to actually put something out there? So here's what I like to do is and I think the thing we've got to remember, there's a really wonderful book called Change by Damon Santoli, and he looks at, how to make behavior change happen at scale.
Dianna 00:23:36 And one of the biggest points I take away from this is that human behavior change is actually the the most frightening thing you can ask a human being to do because it's public. And if you think about it in, you know, high stakes environments, you can't take it back. And so I think what's really important, when you want to create new ways of being, is to find ways to make it safe for people to change. And in my estimation, that's usually going into an organization and trying to find the people who are a little more forward thinking, who have the enough personal cred that they can take a risk and find them and get them together. Like, there's there's usually a group, you know, a number of them and get them together and give them something we give them. Untying the knot as a shared language to help them talk about what they want to create, and I find that when they feel safe together and adopt a new way of doing things and having conversation, they can spread it to the next folks.
Dianna 00:24:44 They might spread it to their teams or the people or you know, that they work with. And so you've got to be strategic, I think, about how to make behavior change safe for people, and that's a whole conversation. You know, that I'm always happy to have with people how to think about that.
Dan 00:25:03 Diana, how are your conversations when you're out socializing or. I'm not talking about that perfect day. You talked about their share with a loved one. but yeah. How do you approach it when you are in one of these? For me, sort of these things I don't particularly look forward to, which is, you know, the sort of the drinks party or something. How do you talk to us about Diana in that situation?
Dianna 00:25:31 Oh, well, I'm just always super intrigued by human beings. I mean, I think human beings are fascinating, so I love to just listen to how people see the world. And I love to explore how they're doing things, what they're thinking about.
Dianna 00:25:48 And, yeah, yeah. So I guess it depends on where things are going. I'm just really curious about how people are seeing the world right now. And I guess the thing I do most, I find so many people are just feeling some despair right now, or deep frustration or fear. And so often what I end up doing is sharing the worldview I just shared with you, which is I see hope. Yeah, I actually think we're standing on an unprecedented moment in time where deep, deep seated change is possible. And, and this is not like airy fairy. You know, I didn't pull this out of the sky. I I've spent decades helping people to change. And I'll tell you, the people I've seen completely transformed themselves were usually the clients that came and had been told, you change or you're done. And so, like, it was a burn the boats moment. Like, you know, they they couldn't. They either could argue that that information was wrong, which usually didn't go well for them.
Dianna 00:26:50 Yeah. Or they're like, I got to change. And I'm like, cool, let's do it. And what I found is that when people can't go back and can be inspired to go forward and see how change can be positive not only for them, but for others. People are capable of tremendous transformation. So I just share with people my worldview, which is, let's do this. I mean, this is an amazing moment in time. Come on. We've been trying to change the world for a long time, and the door is open. Like, let's take advantage of it. Let's go.
Dan 00:27:25 Yeah. Fantastic. I think there is a bit. The way you answered that question was was unusual. I think, though, that you're there to understand people, how people see the world. I think most people, even if you're curious about someone else, is sort of what are they doing? What are their kids doing at the moment? You know, it's it's you're all doing. It's all a lot of doing and the sort of the nuclei of life and not the kids are, mind you, shy? Obviously.
Dan 00:27:52 Just in case my daughters are listening. but, but, you know, all that stuff is a little bit humdrum and practical, but I really like the way you zoom right out to say, okay. How? What? Show me your lens. And I think that presumably gives a lot of, Yeah, a lot of fodder for conversation, but also an opportunity for you to to talk hope.
Dianna 00:28:13 Well, let me be clear to you also. I mean, if someone is really, like, talk to the hand, I'll talk to the hand. I can talk to the hand just like anybody else can, you know, I mean, I got I got as much small talk as anybody, but if the door opens, I'll step through it, because I think hope is one of the, most precious things we can share with each other right now.
Dan 00:28:38 Amazing. I that's, we we started conversing about conversations, and we've we've ended up on hope, which is wonderful. Diana, just give us a if someone's listening to this and think, well, I would like to be better at this.
Dan 00:28:52 I know you've talked about quite a few things you can do mental preparation and that sort of base curiosity. Where should people really start to get a good a positive start if they want to just do a little bit better in this field?
Dianna 00:29:05 I think one of the things you could do is just get super curious about how other people see the world and just start to make it a practice, like instead of leading with your here's your opinion and what you want. Just learn how to ask people like, tell me more about that. You know, why does that? Why does that matter to you? how is that impacting you? Like, just get curious about how other people see the world, and it makes it easier to start to navigate, with other human beings. And. Yeah. So I think just really cultivating your curiosity is a really good place about about people and why they do what they do. Yeah. Is a great place to begin.
Dan 00:29:52 Fantastic, fantastic. And leave us with a, a media recommendation, if you wouldn't mind.
Dianna 00:29:58 Well, I brought a kind of a fun one. And just which which is aligned with what I just shared. I really think one of the best things we can do is just drop ourselves into other people's worldviews to practice seeing how they see the world. That was one of the great, I think one of the greatest gifts I was given in my life was the opportunity to spend three decades coaching people. I have looked at so many different worldviews. I just have tremendous love and grace for human beings because we just see the world so differently. And I found this fantastic book that I think could help anyone just curious about other human beings in a fun way, kind of like learn more. So it's called Maybe You Should Talk to Someone by Lori Gottlieb, and it's about a therapist and her therapist and our lives. And she just sort of follows these five clients that are completely different. Oh, wow. And it's a fun read. It's an easy read, a short little chapters, and you follow these people as their sort of lives unfold.
Dianna 00:30:58 And it's a great place to begin your building your curiosity skills.
Dan 00:31:03 Oh, fantastic.
Pia 00:31:05 Is that the Mary that's part of the partnership with the. They're two therapists together. The Gottlieb. The Gottlieb? I don't know. That's the same one.
Dianna 00:31:15 I think this is the, I can't remember, child, because I can't.
Pia 00:31:21 Remember what they've written a lot on on, relationships and how to how to.
Dianna 00:31:26 This is. No, I think this is a different person.
Pia 00:31:29 Well.
Dianna 00:31:30 She writes an advice column for The Atlantic. Oh, brilliant. Yeah. So she just does individual therapy. but she herself is going through therapy in the book. Yeah. So it's really. And she's a great writer, so it's a fun book.
Dan 00:31:46 That sounds absolutely appear and I are both fans of the show shrinking. So, yeah, there's there's all kinds of therapy flying in all directions. So that sounds that sounds like a sort of a sort of good version of that. So, Wonderful. Thank you so much, Diana.
Dan 00:32:01 You've really inspired us, I think. And that message of hope comes through very strongly. And we can do it human to human through our conversations. So thank you so much for inspiring us to do that.
Dianna 00:32:13 Oh my pleasure. Thanks, Pia. Thanks, Dan, for having me. It's it's been a.
Pia 00:32:17 Lovely thank you so much.
Dan 00:32:18 Thank you.
Pia 00:32:19 I think this has been such a great conversation and really enlightening and and I must say that I when I'm in a dinner party or with a group of friends or in a some kind of social event, I am. I'm interested at the lack of good questioning skills that people have and lack of curiosity. So there's something around that. The conversation is somehow built on a justification of who you are in some way, or what's happened, or we ask very trivial questions around the things you do and what happens in. Yes, yes. And they're very superficial. So I think that that that capacity to delve into people's assumptions and beliefs. And I guess in some situations now we feel a bit fearful for doing that.
Pia 00:33:15 And I'm not quite sure whether that's a post-Covid thing or the post, you know, post-war world of.
Dan 00:33:20 Populism, populism era aren't we? Just don't know what you're going to hear.
Pia 00:33:25 I spoke to somebody this week that just had really good, curious questions, and where that took me was amazing. It was like, oh.
Dan 00:33:32 It's fantastic, isn't it? It's really.
Pia 00:33:35 Liberating.
Dan 00:33:36 To be on the other side of that is wonderful, isn't it? It's funny. I've just literally thought about I bumped into it when I was traveling back from the States. I stood next to a guy at the gate and we got chatting, you know, and by that peer, I know what you're thinking. I. You think I was talking at him and he was just wishing I'd go. No, no, there was a conversation. Yeah, exactly.
Pia 00:33:54 He was.
Dan 00:33:54 Asleep. Exactly. He was asleep and I was chatting away. No. but you know, this guy, he, you know, he worked in shipping and, he was sort of looking at a TV, looking at the TV, talking about Donald Trump and saying, well, you're looking at, think Keir Starmer said, well, at least he's, you know, Donald Trump's far better than him.
Dan 00:34:15 And, you know, talking about gun control in the States where he lived. And, you know, actually it's in the blue States weather. And it was sort of. Whoa. Okay. and it was one of these things exactly as I say. It was challenging. I can't say I was. I tried to maintain my curiosity, and it was a very pleasant conversation, but, boy, it's as you say, it can be challenging if you really want to bridge the gap. instead of just throw something back at him. No. You're wrong. Oh, no. You're wrong. And even if it doesn't turn into an argument that almost, I feel like the humans don't meet in the middle sometimes in conversations. And if they can just cross over, through their conversation, it really helps. But I was challenged, I must say, as you say.
Pia 00:34:58 And you will be, because not everyone. We're not we're we're we're meant to be democratic. So we're meant to have different viewpoints.
Pia 00:35:04 Yeah. And it's lovely when somebody aligns or you have agreement. But that's that's not reality. There will be differences.
Dan 00:35:13 It's more nuanced to look for the disagreement as well. Yeah. Yeah.
Pia 00:35:17 It's yeah. And it is a challenge and it does bring up your own assumptions and beliefs, and then that curiosity drops because you make them wrong.
Dan 00:35:26 Yeah, yeah, I think that's right.
Pia 00:35:28 And yeah, and there may be ways that people talk and the things that they have that actually feel offensive or feel unsafe. And that's a different thing. That's and I think it is.
Dan 00:35:37 Yeah. There's a line isn't there. And you can call it I think the other bit sort of being a bit more mechanical about it, I think sometimes, and I've been really working on this recently, particularly if I get into those the dinner party small talk situations is actually not doing small talk, but making sure I've got really good questions. But it's not that easy. The actual even if you think right, I'm being curious.
Dan 00:35:58 Sometimes the questions come, but actually sometimes they don't. And I do think that it's worth doing. for our dear listener, a little bit of sort of preparation to think about. Right. What are some good questions here that are going to that I can ask that aren't the usual how the kids type of thing? so yeah, I think a little it's a, it's a real practice. Requires preparation requires that mindset, but also a skill set. And I don't think you can. Think you can just walk into that and suddenly be really great at even the fundamental. Even those skills, if you like. Yeah. Of having the right question. Yeah.
Pia 00:36:34 Totally agree. And I think that's and that's the art of conversation. I remember studying, you know, text for, for my English A-level and, and reading all the sort of Charlotte and Emily Bronte's and.
Dan 00:36:50 All of Jane Austen and all that.
Pia 00:36:52 Jane Austen.
Dan 00:36:52 All of us.
Pia 00:36:53 Yeah, yeah, but yeah, but they spent hours conversing, and the art was a rich one.
Pia 00:37:01 Yeah. Because there really wasn't much else to do. But but but we have we have lost that art of it. And I think that's an important it is an art to be able to explore, to challenge, to have that have a broader view. and we've just taken information in bite size and we just give sort of. Yeah, acronyms as our viewpoint.
Dan 00:37:26 I think that's right. I think when I was growing up, I think that sort of art of conversation was this won't surprise you was sort of, for me, framed as being the sort of master of witty repartee, you know, to have a really good riposte or a great joke. And I still do that to some extent this day to to everyone's horror. But I think as I get a bit more mature, I'm really trying to sprinkle a few questions in there and, you know, based it up. It picks up. Yeah.
Pia 00:37:56 A repartee. Yeah.
Dan 00:37:57 That's fine. Exactly, exactly. I'll ask you a question. You say something, I'll make a brilliant joke about it.
Pia 00:38:03 And that's the end of the conversation. Very deep.
Dan 00:38:05 I don't know exactly, but genuinely, I have found that when you're doing it or when you're on the other side on the receiving end of it, it's absolutely amazing. So, dear listener, give it a go. Up your small talk and get it. Get it out the window. And, And really. And I really love what Diana said, that this is about how they see the world. I think that gives you a really if you think about that. Just gives hope. Loads of hope if we can change these things. But I thought that that actually is a really great, sort of thing to think about. This person opposite me, how do they see the world? You can even ask them that question. What are you seeing? What are you thinking? I thought that was a really, just really big picture. Really great. But that is it for this episode. We're not me. As supported by Squad Officer, Spotify helps every team to build engagement and drive performance.
Dan 00:38:53 You can find show notes where you're listening and also at Spotify. Net. If you enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends in one's many conversations you're going to be having. Why not me? This produced by Rob Lawrence. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
Pia 00:39:10 And it's goodbye from me.