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Orthodox Christian Parenting, hosted by Faithtree Resources Executive Director (and mom of four!) Michelle Moujaes, is a weekly podcast for parents and grandparents navigating the holy struggle of raising kids in the Orthodox Faith. Each episode offers honesty, encouragement, and practical wisdom from the Church—creating space to exhale, freedom from the pressure to be perfect, and openness to grow as you raise children who are deepening their knowledge and love of Christ.
Welcome to Orthodox Christian Parenting, where we bring the church's timeless wisdom into the everyday chaos of raising kids. I'm Michelle Moujaes, and today we're sitting with a really good friend of mine to wrestle with a question that a lot of us carry quietly, maybe even secretly, which is what do you do when you do everything right or so you think, and your child still doesn't turn out the way that you prayed they would? And I'm not talking about toddler tantrums or the little annoying teenage attitude that you might see. What I'm talking about is the grown son who stopped coming to church altogether, or the daughter who moved in with someone before she married them, or the child who's still so kind and still calls you at Christmas but really has quietly walked away from the faith and the family that you spent decades building into them. This is one of the hardest rooms of parenting, and it's a room that the church has always walked people through for two thousand years.
Michelle Moujaes:So today, I'm joined by a pastor who has spent almost thirty years sitting in that room with families. Some of whom found their way back and some of whom are still waiting or working on it. And all of whom needed something truer than either despair or denial, which only the church can bring. Be sure to download the free parent discussion guide linked in the show notes so that you can take this conversation home to your spouse or a friend or someone in your parish community. My guest today has spent almost three decades in pastoral ministry.
Michelle Moujaes:He and his wife, Tara, planted a single bible study that grew into a congregation of a thousand people every week with an enormous staff and an army of volunteers. Since then, he has helped launch so many more churches in the years that followed. And today, he leads a growing congregation in Southern California and trains pastors across the state. Along the way, he sat across the table from hundreds of parents who are walking through the exact ache that we're talking about today. Pastor Will Browning, welcome to this podcast.
Michelle Moujaes:I'm so excited to have you here.
Will Browning:Thank you for having me.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, I love it. Okay. So we are talking about kind of something tender that a lot of parents face and a lot of us fear Mhmm. Which is what if it looks different than what I'm trying to build? What if I do everything right and my kids still walk away from the family or walk away from the faith?
Michelle Moujaes:And so I would just ask you to open us up. Is that something that you see a lot of?
Will Browning:Yeah. I think it's, more prevalent than people experience. And that means that a lot of people live in despair, and they live in fear that they're the only ones.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Will Browning:When the truth is, actually, most people are facing it. And you can be encouraged if we actually have these kinds of conversations. I think people stay disappointed and discouraged because people don't openly talk about the struggles that they have. Today's conversation is gonna allow us to do that and maybe it'll be the most helpful.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. So let me say back to you what I think I heard. So you're saying everybody has some form of a disappointment, whether it's my kid didn't study what I wanted them to study, or, you know, maybe it's as simple as, you know, for the Orthodox, we take the ascetical life. So maybe our kid doesn't fast like we want them to. Or maybe it's so big as they've actually walked away from the church and they want no part of it.
Michelle Moujaes:But for all of us, what I'm hearing you say is there's some part of that that we can all identify with.
Will Browning:And there's probably more people to connect with with your pain than you've given yourself credit to know.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. Okay. So what implications would that have for us if if we knew that everybody was fighting a big battle as you hear? Is that something parents would be blessed to kind of connect with others on? Is that the first thing that we would do to try and heal in those achy areas?
Will Browning:I think in this culture, the currency of trust comes from authenticity. People who are authentic, it's not usual, it's not typical because we see everybody put their best face forward on social media. Uh-huh. Makes you feel guilty that your life isn't in order.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Will Browning:So when someone is truly authentic and they're truly transparent about what's going on in their lives, they really gain trust. So I would say to anybody who's dealing with this, begin to share that and find that there's other people who are dealing with it. I'm pretty confident that the reason why we go through the pains that we go through, some of it might be parenting, some of it might be marital, some of it might just be the difficulties of living in a lost world. But I think the reason why God gives us pain is that we might be able to help others who don't have the hope of Jesus because they're not yet believers. Here's what I mean.
Will Browning:If every Christian never experienced pain, we never got cancer, we never saw divorce, we never had a kid who walked away. If God protected every Christian from those pains, then we would have no way to connect to people who have those pains. So I think God allows for us to go through these pains for the purpose of having a true witness. I'm an adoptive dad, and I can connect with other adoptive families because I've been through those struggles. So I think God allows for us to go through some of these pains.
Will Browning:Like, my son's not doing what I want him to do, or my daughter's not doing what I would hope that she would do. I think they do that. God does that so that we might be able to minister to people who are dealing with But it can't happen if we're not first honest about it.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. I like that. So when you, sit with a family and you're, you know, kind of pastoring a family that has whatever the hardship is, what's the first thing that you see those families dealing with registering? Is it is it is there anything that happening to the parent first that you see and then maybe leave leave whatever the struggle is later? Like, what is it the parent experiences when something doesn't happen the way we want?
Will Browning:I think they experience shame.
Michelle Moujaes:I think that's a huge one.
Will Browning:I think that they begin to believe that they are the reason. If they would have done things Mhmm. Differently it wouldn't be this way. Mhmm. The truth is if you sit down with parents who their children turned out the exact way they prayed, you find out that they didn't do all the right things.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Will Browning:That it truly was more the prayers that they prayed or the people that God surrounded them with. And it's not so much their scoreboard of success as their kid's success as much as just the grace of God.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Will Browning:There's more people who are just going, if I would have just done it a little differently, it would be better.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I don't know
Will Browning:if that's so much the truth.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I like that. I I wanna know. So, I mean, I have seen families in my life and, you know, in my own ministry where they've done everything seemingly right and it didn't work. Their kids did not end up in a good place.
Michelle Moujaes:And then I've seen families where they did nothing right and their kids stayed so close to the church and so engaged and are serving in such a beautiful way. And I I think that what I hear you saying is, like, maybe it's not entirely you. Like, obviously, we can make mistakes and breed things that are not healthy in our children, but there is the place for us to recognize that God is God. Mhmm. Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:So if a parent is feeling that kind of dissonance like, oh, yeah. I wish I hadn't. That wasn't what happened. Or I wish I had done this differently. What would you say to that parent?
Will Browning:Well, this is probably my favorite thing to say. When we deal with the shame of am I valued? Have I done the right things? I feel like if I would have done things better, things would have turned out better. I love to tell this story.
Will Browning:God was raising his first two kids in a perfect environment. Speaking of Adam and Eve in Everything's the Garden of perfect. There's no sin in the world. Secondly, they're being raised by a perfect father.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Will Browning:He never does anything wrong, and his first two kids rebel. Mhmm. How can we expect that we're gonna do better than God? Mhmm. So when we're facing children who are rebelling, it's just another way for us to connect with God the father.
Will Browning:He knows exactly what it feels like because the very first ones he raised. And how can I expect to do better than God? Mhmm. I'm not a perfect father. Mhmm.
Will Browning:We're not perfect moms either. But I'm also not raising my kids in this perfect environment.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Will Browning:So I can't expect that I'm gonna have this perfect opportunity and this perfect response for my kids. The truth is I'm probably gonna face struggles because God faced struggles. And And I think that's probably true for just about everybody who's struggling with this right now. Somebody who has a kid who's not doing all the things. Okay.
Will Browning:Guess what? God the father knows exactly what that's like because every child, except for Jesus has done the same thing to him.
Michelle Moujaes:I I think of the father and the prodigal son.
Will Browning:Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:So he did not sit and participate in his son's sinfulness.
Will Browning:Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:He sat anxiously waiting. As parents, how do we patiently wait? How what does that look like? Because that's not usually my go to. Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:I try to take control of the situation or strong-arm somebody or convince them or cajole them or beg them or whatever that is. If there's if there's something happening that feels out of bounds.
Will Browning:Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:So what would it look like for us to be the father who's patiently waiting?
Will Browning:So there's a resource, and I may not say it exactly right. Maybe we can make sure we get it right in any of our notes that we provide. Sure. But it was a book that was sitting on my, coffee table that my daughter said, are you reading that? The book's title, believe, was Doing Life With Your Adult Children.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, yeah. Jim Burns. We know him. Yes. Yes.
Michelle Moujaes:Yes.
Will Browning:It was the the second line or the subtitle that got her to say, are you reading this? Because I think it gives us the answer to this question. The subtitle is keep the welcome mat out and your mouth shut.
Michelle Moujaes:I know. It's so painful.
Will Browning:It is. It is. And I had my 20 year old daughter say, please tell me you're reading that.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Will Browning:Because I think those are the two things. The prodigal father, he kept the door open. The welcome mat was out when he wanted to return. And that's the easier part. The harder part is keeping your mouth shut.
Michelle Moujaes:Well, when does that start? I'm advocating for my own children right now because it certainly hasn't started in my home yet. So tell me when that starts.
Will Browning:I think we have to go through a phase in the teenage years where we go from parenting to coaching. And it's not a day that it happens. You know, on their sixteenth birthday, I leave parenting and I move towards coaching. But I think as we begin to see some maturity, we see them responding well, we give them more responsibility.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Will Browning:Begin to coach them. Which is the difference between me saying, this is what you're going to do, and me saying, what do you think you should do? I'm gonna give you advice after you give me your choice, but I wanna see if you can come up with the right answer first.
Michelle Moujaes:Right. Right. Right. Right.
Will Browning:I think it could start with a really mature kid at 13. Some kids, it might not start until they're 22.
Michelle Moujaes:Right. Right.
Will Browning:Right. But I think we have to shift away from just, I'm gonna tell you what to do to start helping these kids make decisions on their own. One of my favorite verses in the Bible is when we hear that our kids are supposed to be like arrows, arrows are supposed to be deployed. They're supposed to be sent out. Right.
Will Browning:Ultimately, what our goal in parenting is to send them out as a weapon for Jesus into this world. But they won't be much of a weapon if they need us for everything.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right. That's right. One of the things I love in that book, something to the effect of when your children are older, unsolicited advice is almost always taken as criticism. Mhmm. I do think that's true.
Michelle Moujaes:But I find it very difficult to sit and watch some mistakes be made and not wanna be like, woah. Woah. That's gonna hurt. That's gonna hurt. Stop.
Michelle Moujaes:Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. But I don't know what the formula looks like.
Michelle Moujaes:Like, you know, I have a 13 year old at home. So there are some things I'm not gonna let her fall. Right? There are some things I will. Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:But ultimately, finding the balance, which is when are you gonna say, oh, that's probably not what I do. But if you do that, that's great. So long as you're prepared to accept the consequences. You Do have any wisdom on what that could look like to be in balance and not crazy?
Will Browning:Well, I mean, I think that we need to stay in the parenting role as long as possible. If we start the coaching role too early Okay. We're gonna lose the authority that we might need in the their immature choices.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Will Browning:You know, you'll see parents that try to be their kid's best friend early, early in life, and what they lose is the authority that their kids are going to need. But it's really hard to back that thing up. Once you've sort of given that away, it's really hard to back it up. So I think it's important that we stay in that authority role for as long as we can. But then we do have to shift to the coaching role so that they can begin to make decisions on their own.
Will Browning:I remember with our kids, you know, instead of saying, is your time to be home, your curfew is at this time, I would say, what do you think is a responsible time to be home? And if they said two in the morning, I was like, try again.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah, that's right. No, it doesn't work.
Will Browning:But when I would watch them say, I have some schoolwork I need to do, probably ten is a good time. I think that's a good choice.
Michelle Moujaes:Great.
Will Browning:I'm proud of you.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good.
Will Browning:I think it helps them to begin to make some of those decisions.
Michelle Moujaes:I like that. There's, a deacon in the Orthodox Church. His name is Michael Hyatt. He's also an author.
Will Browning:Oh, yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We've talked about okay. So what deacon Michael talks about is the handing off of the baton.
Michelle Moujaes:And he says, you know, if you look at people who are running a race, and, you know, the one guy has to reach back and hand the baton, but there's a moment where they run alongside each other Yes. So that the baton is not dropped. And I think there is a place for that movement, the shift from parent to coach, and maybe it's in tandem a little bit. Yeah. That makes sense to me.
Will Browning:I think that's exactly And
Michelle Moujaes:I like the way you say it. What do you think is reasonable here? Try again. Okay. That's good.
Michelle Moujaes:That's good. Okay. So we hear this sometimes. We get parents who write in and they all say things like, I did everything right and it still happened. What would you say, particularly about the mindset around that kind of verbiage?
Michelle Moujaes:Is there anything that we can learn there that might not be serving us as parents?
Will Browning:Yeah. I think the first thing I wanna say is the whole story hasn't been written yet.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. Good.
Will Browning:You know, a lot of us want to make sure that our kids are sent out of our house exactly right, ready for the world. But for some of them, they're gonna continue to struggle into adulthood, and we see so many redemptive stories that happen when the kids leave. They go to college. They make some mistakes. They get their first job.
Will Browning:They make some mistakes. They go to military. They make some mistakes, And they return back to what they were always taught. But they need to make some mistakes. I think this can often happen to some of our best parents that they're really, really involved and their kids haven't really had a chance to make too many mistakes.
Will Browning:So they do make some. We feel this sense of failure, but the story's not written. They're still 20 years old. They're still probably gonna live forty plus more years, sixty more years. Let's continue to let God write different stories.
Will Browning:And guess what? It's good for the kingdom, for every story not to be my kid grew up in the church and was perfect.
Michelle Moujaes:Perfect. That's right. That's We
Will Browning:need some people whose kids struggled, came to faith so that we can give the hope to the next family who's going through the same thing. So I would say God's writing a story that's gonna be useful. And finally, it may not ever turn out the way that you prayed.
Michelle Moujaes:What do you do when that's the story?
Will Browning:The the one thing that I know you do is continue to pray. Yes. Never stop praying.
Michelle Moujaes:Yes.
Will Browning:And the most powerful weapon we have is prayer. And instead of wielding it like the weapon that it is, the bazooka that it is Mhmm. We wield it like it's a water pistol. We need to make sure that we're using prayer powerfully, daily, consistently.
Michelle Moujaes:Yes. I love that so much.
Will Browning:I had a friend who, she had journals that she prayed for people. And then when certain moments would happen in their lives, she would give to them the journal that was just the prayers that she prayed for that individual. How awesome would it be for parents to have a journal that they write all the prayers that they've had for their individual children That is so hand it to them and say, for forty years, I've been praying for you. I want you to see how much I've been laboring to see that you come to know Jesus or return back to Christ or return back to the church.
Michelle Moujaes:That's so great. I'm gonna go buy four journals. I really am. That's beautiful. That's really beautiful.
Michelle Moujaes:I think there's, as you said, underestimation of the power of prayer. And I think one of the questions we hear a lot from, like, just people, like, in my Sunday school class or things like that, or I don't feel anything. I don't feel anything. I I would dare say that's okay. And in the Orthodox Church, we have all these prescribed prayers.
Michelle Moujaes:There's they actually have beautiful prayers for parents, for their children. And in fact, shameless plug, we have an app called the encounter, which has tons of them to pray for your children, but I think it's okay. I think that daily commitment to stand before God and pray on behalf of those you love, it's really powerful. Okay. That's good.
Michelle Moujaes:What about for the parent who will say, well, if it's not a story that has been finished being written, then can I just exhale and trust it'll be what it is? Because I kinda wanna grit through and figure it out because I'm a control freak. So I don't wanna, like, just trust that it'll be written as it should be. I wanna fix it.
Will Browning:I would say number one, God might be teaching you the hard lesson of you're not in control.
Michelle Moujaes:Hate that lesson so much, Will. I hate it. But okay.
Will Browning:But I think sometimes the only way that some of us are gonna learn Fair. Is to have it stripped from us. And it's a good thing for God to do that so that we don't feel like we're responsible. Because when things go well, we take all the credit. And when things go poorly, we take all the blame.
Will Browning:And that really leaves God out of the equation. So I I I think it's I think it's important that we do that. Secondly, I don't think that our presence should change. Maybe what we say might be a little softer. Maybe we might ask more questions than we would give our opinions in some of these situations with kids that are struggling.
Will Browning:But I think the one thing that we do is we make sure that our presence stays there. I'll give you an example of this. My two boys, I decided that every Friday, I would take them to breakfast and we would do a Bible study together and we would talk about what it meant to be a man.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that.
Will Browning:And I'll tell you, if you went and sat down at one of those, you would see massive disappointment in my eyes thinking it was gonna be far better, that they're gonna be far more interested. And I remember telling one of my friends, like, like, I'm not sure this is working. And they this gentleman said to me, Will, what you don't know is you're setting them up for that moment that they really need their dad, that they know they can come and talk to you. That sounded like a great promise. And then I got the phone call from my son from college saying, dad, I need to talk to you tomorrow morning.
Will Browning:I'm like, okay, when's your first class? And he's like, it's at 08:00. I'm like, okay, what time do I need to get there? I need you here at 06:30. I'm thinking it's a two hour drive.
Will Browning:And I got there and he shared with me one of his first big pains in his adult life. And I heard that friend. He was exactly right. I put in the time to just being there in frustrating moments, but he knew that when he really needed his dad
Michelle Moujaes:You were there.
Will Browning:That I would be there. And it wasn't
Michelle Moujaes:an
Will Browning:uncomfortable conversation. He was used to saying these kind of things to me because we put the time in. So you have an adult child or you have a teenage child that's just not going well, don't stop the presence portion. Maybe you give your opinion less, maybe you listen more, maybe ask questions more, But one thing that can't change is your presence.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. And I do think to your point, I think good parenting looks a lot like listening. But we're we're not necessarily, that's not our first line of defense. Like, it's not my strategy. I'm like, let me talk some more.
Michelle Moujaes:Yes. I do think there is something to be said for also allowing it to be a little sloppy, which it sounds like what you just described to me with your boys, which was you show up and you try. And maybe it doesn't look super, like, swanky like it does on the brochure, but I think that effort does yield great fruit. Okay.
Will Browning:Maybe our p is perseverance.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, I like it. Perseverance. Perseverance to don't want you. Sometimes the kids are like, got it. Don't need you to step in on that one.
Michelle Moujaes:So what do you do then when you're trying to persevere and continue being with them? Is it you're just quiet and you hang back?
Will Browning:Well, they never would give over a meal. So I always put a lot of these That's things over good.
Michelle Moujaes:That's good. That's right.
Will Browning:It didn't go the same way with my daughter. I needed to take her on a daddy daughter date usually.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. That's good.
Will Browning:And she'll still ask for that at twenty six. Can we go on a daddy daughter date? I'm like, you're married. Let let Phil do that.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Will Browning:Still, I wanna do that with you. So maybe maybe, bribe them with some a good meal.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. I actually really love that. And, you know, we found we used to take, all four of our kids. Every week, I'd have an hour with each one, and my husband would have an hour with each one. We'd take them on a date.
Michelle Moujaes:And sometimes it was to Starbucks and sometimes it was like to the grocery store. But we noticed, and in fact, we recently had a conversation with our older two and they missed that that connection even though they didn't always want it when they were really little. But I think there's good wisdom there. Is there anything kind of underneath when you see like again, we've talked about a range of different struggles that people have with their children. So some of them are really big ones and some of them are probably just more annoying ones.
Michelle Moujaes:But is there something underneath that you see happening in parents that we might wanna be mindful of? So I'll give you a hard example. You talked about the shame and being ashamed, but some of it is just I don't want people to think that we're a disaster. Or some of it is, gosh, that's tapping into my own hurt or my own fear of my past. Is there some common, denominator for parents that we could watch for that would allow us to serve our children better?
Will Browning:Well, I do like that you brought out some introspections, I think, on your own choices. I began to notice that some of the things that I held my parents into con in contempt over are some of the same problems that I'm still creating for my kids. Like, I'm still passing on these things that I said I was never going to do.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah.
Will Browning:So I do think that there might be some let me look inside. Yeah. Yeah. Let me ask the questions that, am I hard? Am I too hard?
Will Browning:Maybe I need to go to another parent that I trust and just ask, what are you doing? I bet you're going to find out that there's more struggles even in that great parent that you're like, man, I think everything's going great with their kids.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Will Browning:That they're actually facing some things too.
Michelle Moujaes:That's really important for us to remember because nobody nails it perfectly.
Will Browning:We're supposed to do life in community.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah.
Will Browning:Yeah. That's why the church is so important.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Will Browning:We're supposed to not try to do this alone.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Will Browning:The world says do it alone. Satan knows that if he can isolate you, he can influence you.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Will Browning:He does not want you to be in community, particularly with other godly people that will encourage you and help you to find real answers. That's probably what's the power behind this podcast is this is a worldwide group of people saying, we're gonna try to figure this out together. Yeah. I'll bring my friend, I'll sit down with a friend of mine, and let's just think this thing through.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Thank God. That's that's one of the things actually for each podcast episode that we release. We also give a free parent discussion guide, and we've been so encouraged to see hundreds of people and families going through it, like, on date night, but we also have seen churches and dozens of them having, parent Sunday school because we do need each other to talk through it. And I know I would also call out fine mentor families who are just enough ahead of you so that you can learn from what worked really well and what maybe didn't work so well.
Michelle Moujaes:And again, it's not gonna be perfect, but why cut your teeth alone? Like Yeah. Find somebody who can help you.
Will Browning:You'll redeem any scars that they have by being able to use their scars to help someone else. Now the things they went through have a purpose behind it.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. Here's a question that I have. So there seems like I'll just speak for myself and my sweet husband who has to manage me as I go through it. When things get kind of difficult or if there's some sort of and thank god we haven't had any major departure from the faith. Our kids are are beautifully walking Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:Alongside family and each other's and invested in the church. So it may be a little unfair for me to use us as an example, but I'm gonna just say it. There are times when they do things where I'm literally gritting my teeth, and then there are other times where I'm, like, fully, exhaling and just knowing like, okay, they're gonna learn from that one. In that posture, in the middle of those two, is there like an ideal way for us to kind of walk with them without the teeth gritting or the kind of disengagement? Like, what would it look like for us to do it really well no matter what the choice is?
Will Browning:When I look back at my parenting and I ask what do I wish I would have done differently or what were some powerful, tools that I had that I didn't utilize, I think I undervalued how much encouragement could create change.
Michelle Moujaes:So good.
Will Browning:I I think I really believe, like, if I discipline you, it will create life change. What I didn't understand is if I encourage you towards these directions that I want you to go, the amount of times I say how proud I am, I write you a note and say, this is just makes me so excited. I take somebody out to dinner and say, just what you've been doing is making me so proud. I could actually change their actions by being patient and wait for something to praise rather than in the moment of failure to just go at discipline. I think I just believed that if I did the attack of discipline consistently, and I am a fan of discipline, I just think I underutilized how powerful an encouragement might be.
Michelle Moujaes:That's so good. Why do we go to discipline? It's not that it's easier. I almost feel like it's a responsibility we feel to put a stop to the bad behavior to make sure everybody's kinda like locked in, you know, loaded in the right way. So Yeah.
Will Browning:There's an urgency to wrong. Like, we need to correct wrong, and we need to correct it today. I think there's good things about that. We shouldn't just let it fester. But I think that urgency is what negativity creates.
Will Browning:And what positivity does is we think it'll keep coming. And we don't take advantage of the moment that we have. I think we do this with our kids. We do it in our marriages. We probably also do it with, like, loving extended family members, parents.
Will Browning:We should take these moments and leverage encouragement to see the change that we're hoping for.
Michelle Moujaes:That's so good. I've never thought about that. There's an urgency to wrongdoing. Like, we just want it to stop and fast. Maybe it is because we're afraid it it will fester or maybe it's because it's embarrassing or maybe it's because we're scared of it, but the encouragement leaning in there.
Michelle Moujaes:That's really good. I like that, Will. Alright. Walk me through it. Now that we're gonna get practical.
Michelle Moujaes:I need practical because again, I like my checklist step by step plan of everything, which is not the Orthodox way, but it's what I'm always looking for. So let's say you have a hard scenario. You have a kid who is moved in with someone they're not married to, or you have somebody who's dipping their toe into, like, substance abuse or something like that. Like, is there a way that we as parents would wanna walk with them well? Like, so for example, what I'm tangibly looking for is like, if it's a safety issue, do this first.
Michelle Moujaes:If it's just giving them freedom and inviting them back to a better way, do this.
Will Browning:Yeah. It's hard because, somebody who's doing drugs and could harm themselves tonight versus somebody who's making a choice, somebody that might not turn out well. Like, there's a you probably have to have variance based on how big the struggle is. There might be some things that we can just know that we lean on. One of the things that Tara and I spend time, we always ask the question when we're about ready to address something with our older kids.
Will Browning:Ask the question, how much relationship will be giving over or we'll be forfeiting if we go at this? Mhmm. So for instance, hey. If I'm gonna bring up a subject matter that really matters to me, and I'm gonna bring it up to a child, I have to understand that they might create distance between us because of that conversation. And is it worth it?
Will Browning:Sometimes it's totally worth it. And then sometimes it's just like a nagging thing that I don't like. You know? I wish that you dressed your kids a different way, or I wish that you, you know, guys did bedtime different ways. Well, those those things probably aren't worth it.
Will Browning:There are some things that are worth it. I think as believers, we can't affirm their sin. If they're making sinful choices, we can't say, hey, I'm gonna love you through it so much that you think that this is not a sin.
Michelle Moujaes:Got it.
Will Browning:But I think we have to hate the sin and love the sinner.
Michelle Moujaes:So how do you keep the doormat out in those scenarios where sin is, something that you don't wanna endorse or affirm and there is a difference between acceptance and still loving? Like, what would that look like?
Will Browning:I think it goes back to continual presence. Trying to think of examples will probably narrow this conversation down too small, but, maybe if we picked one of these, maybe you have a child who is very interested in marrying someone who has no faith in Christ and really seems to be disconnected to the church, and you can see that there's significant problems that are there. I think you gotta make sure that you stay connected in life with them. You're gonna do everything you can to be an influence over them, in them. Gonna make sure that they see what a healthy relationship looks like, shared values.
Will Browning:But I'm not gonna say, I bless this. I'm gonna say, I love you enough to warn you that God's word says that this could be problematic.
Michelle Moujaes:And
Will Browning:I wanna tell you some testimonies of people who've gone down this road. But then if you have that child who does marry that person, okay. We just play we turn into a different game. Now I'm gonna love this person that my son or daughter has married, and I'm gonna show them Christ. I'm gonna show them what they're missing out on.
Will Browning:So just in that one decision that's made, I can't keep fighting the marriage battle. It's already been lost. Now what I've gotta do is begin to show them what a Christ centered home looks like. Mhmm. One of the things that Tara and I talk about is what would it look like for our home and we're in the empty nest stage.
Will Browning:So what would it look like for our home to be such a draw that our kids are like, I just want that.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Will Browning:I want their marriage. I want the way that they look at each other. I want the way that they go play with each other that these adult kids go, let's go spend some time with your parents because they got some things going on that we want. I think the game can change through different seasons.
Michelle Moujaes:I like that. I think that's good. I also believe in bribing with food.
Will Browning:Yes.
Michelle Moujaes:Just wanna say it. Okay. Have you experienced in your pastoral ministry parents who have kinda drawn the line in the sand and where it was helpful or where it was unhelpful? Is it ever helpful? I mean, is there anything where you'd say, you know what?
Michelle Moujaes:I love you, but that's too much. Know, because one of the things we've talked about a lot, and I have really strong feelings about it, is this whole estrangement culture that we live in. I I would be hard pressed to see myself estranged from my children. Mhmm. And I would pray to God that they would never wanna be estranged from Moulet and I.
Michelle Moujaes:But is there ever a time for that?
Will Browning:Well well, yes. I think there are times.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Will Browning:But giving that answer might give someone rights to estrange way too early. Okay. But, yeah, you have a child who is actively abusing a sibling. Creating space is gonna be necessary for the safety of the entire home. A child who is consistently stealing or abusing drugs inside the house and it's making for a dangerous home, it might be good for them to move out.
Will Browning:I think there are some times that it's gonna be necessary. I think there's going be people who go to that too fast and there's going be people who go to it too slow. I think this is why we need other godly families in our lives to go, hey, can you help me think this thing through? Cause my gut is I need to cut them off. And you might have that person goes, I don't think we're there yet.
Will Browning:Somebody else might really need someone to say, you know what? This happened with our kid and we had to make this decision and things turned out this way because after that we started doing X, Y, and Z.
Michelle Moujaes:Got it.
Will Browning:That it doesn't stop with estrangement. It might be, you can't live here. We wanna have you come and eat dinner with us once a week, or we wanna do everything we can to stay connected. It's such a variance that I think you gotta have the nuance with relationships.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. So I hear a lot of, obviously, safety is an issue looking at the whole picture of the people impacted, but as much as is possible, staying connected and presence and getting counsel. That's a really big one, especially when it comes to these kind of bigger issues. I think walking alone is a disaster. Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:So in the Orthodox Church, we have spiritual fathers or mothers, people that we lean on for really wise counsel and confession, and they really walk through. So I would just say a call out for our audiences, we do not walk it alone. The big ones. That's good. That's good.
Will Browning:That's good. If
Michelle Moujaes:you could encourage every parent who is in the midst of a struggle with some of the things that we've said, now I like all my p's. We have prayer, I heard you say, presence, people, patients. We can add in there all of those things. Is there anything that you would add for, people to kind of consider as they're assessing, like, this is not really a big deal or this is really kind of like, we probably are gonna have to decide how we're gonna handle this because it's not working?
Will Browning:Well, first thing I wanna do is I wanna address the shame that's there because we know how big that's gonna
Michelle Moujaes:So be for big.
Will Browning:Yes. I think the first thing I would say to that parent is, okay, you've been chosen. You've been chosen to go through this mess that is not comfortable. God believes that you can handle it, and he believes that there's redemption on the other side and that you're gonna be an encouragement to parents who come behind you because you walked through this. You have been chosen to face this struggle.
Will Browning:Move away from the shame of it and recognize that God's doing something even in the midst of this. He's not the author of the sinful choices that they're making, but he is allowing for this to happen so that you can show how you are going to be like Christ. I wanna go back to the garden.
Michelle Moujaes:K.
Will Browning:God is not valued based on his kids' performance. All the Psalms of praise that we have is not, well, Adam and Eve turned out great. Israel turned out great. Actually, it's a bunch of not that.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah.
Will Browning:Yeah. But he is praised because of his grace, his mercy, his love. So my responsibility in this is how am I going to show God's characters through this? I'm not gonna be praised because my kids succeed in this or fail. What I can control is I can show grace.
Will Browning:I can show mercy. I can show love. I can show the things that God has praised for. And the truth is he is our God, the one to whom we worship, not because his kids were perfect, but because in the midst of their imperfection, he was all these things. So welcome to a very difficult game.
Will Browning:You have the chance to show God in a way that others don't have.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. Okay. If someone is experiencing something right now, right today, that is so difficult, What's the next right move? Like, not the five year plan, but the next right move for someone who's like, you know what? This is not how we expected it to be.
Michelle Moujaes:Well, first of
Will Browning:all, wanna encourage them for listening to the podcast. They're actively seeking out how can I I figure this out and not trying to do it totally on their own? Yeah. I think the first thing to do is to start praying about this. Biggest weapon you have is to pray.
Will Browning:Then I think it is to find truth in God's word, spending time in God's word to give you direction. You know, we're doing our best to give biblical counsel. But what's even better than what we're trying to offer today is spending time in God's word daily so that you can understand what God is trying to say to you uniquely. Stay connected to community. If that's your local church, if that's your bible study or class that you go to, stay connected to all of those things.
Will Browning:And don't wear the badge of shame. Wear the badge of, I've been chosen to face this battle. I've been chosen to face something hard, but God's gonna use it for a purpose. He's gonna redeem this, and I'm gonna have that story of redemption.
Michelle Moujaes:I actually love that. Let me tell you a quick story. We had friends when we lived in Oklahoma City. There was a whole group of us. And I can remember one night, everybody was supposed to be going out to have dinner together.
Michelle Moujaes:And there was one couple who said, we really wanna join you, but it's not in the budget this month. But guess what? If you guys come over after, we can all have coffee or a beer together and hang out. And we were like, my gosh. We we how people could just say that?
Michelle Moujaes:Like, it's not in the budget this month because we were all pretending like we could just go do anything we want, newly married 20. Right? Like, that was so but that was so profound for our group. Someone who's willing to go first and say, this is the reality. We don't we can't do that.
Michelle Moujaes:And so I would just say what I'm hearing you say also is being willing to say, you know what? There's no bad in it. Like, obviously, undesirable things. Sin is real, but we are working through this hard thing and walk with us. And it doesn't mean that all is lost, and it doesn't mean that there's some major character flaw in who you are as a human.
Michelle Moujaes:You're still loved by God. So I think that willingness to say, here's where we are. This is reality and invite people into that story is really powerful.
Will Browning:I
Michelle Moujaes:love it so much. Will Browning, where can people find you?
Will Browning:Wow. I'm on all the social media Tell
Michelle Moujaes:us tell us about your church, Riverside Church. No. Magnolia Church.
Will Browning:Magnolia Church. It's in Riverside, California. Yes. It's on the corner of Adams And Magnolia. California Baptist University is right across the street.
Will Browning:I love So we have this beautiful mix of college students and senior adults that are all together trying to figure out how to do life together. It's a beautiful place. I've been there for a year.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it.
Will Browning:You told a little bit of our story. We started a church, so I know what it's like to plant a church. Right now, I'm trying to figure out what it looks like to serve an established church. And it's a whole different ballgame, but just another opportunity for me to learn and grow as a leader.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. Alright. Magnolia Church, will you kiss your bride for me?
Will Browning:I'll do it.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. Thank you for being with us.
Will Browning:Thank you.
Michelle Moujaes:And thanks to you for joining us on this episode. Here's what I want you to hear if you're listening today. If your grown child's story looks nothing like the one you prayed for, you didn't fail simply because your child chose a different road. Love doesn't work that way. Love doesn't guarantee agreement, and prayer does not guarantee a timeline.
Michelle Moujaes:The father in Christ's parable of the prodigal son didn't chase his son down the Road and drag him home by his hair even if he may have wanted to. Instead, he waited, watching with the gate wide open and the welcome mat out and a celebration ready on standby. That's not passivity. That means that he was engaged in the most active kind of love there is. So this week, I'd invite you to remember one thing.
Michelle Moujaes:Our prayers are never wasted just because we can't see where they land. Don't forget to download the free parent discussion guide in the show notes. And if this episode was helpful at all, please consider sharing it with a friend. We'll see you next time.