Jason Gray

Jay Hildebrandt talks with acclaimed Christian music singer-songwriter Jason Gray about his new focus on the homeless, which of his songs he feels has the most powerful message, and how a Simon & Garfunkel song helped lead him to become a believer.

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The Sunday Blessings Podcast is hosted by Jay Hildebrandt and features stories of faith, hope, and inspiration. You'll hear extended interviews, musician & artist spotlights, and more. Sunday Blessings can be heard weekly on Sundays from 5am-5pm mountain standard time on Classy 97, Sunny 97, and Classy 97 Lite.

Sharing stories of faith, hope, and inspiration. This is the Sunday Blessings podcast. I'm Jay Hildebrandt, and this is the Sunday Blessings podcast. And we're fortunate today to have Jason Gray with us. Jason is a contemporary Christian singer songwriter.

I'm sure you've heard of him if you're into the Christian music scene. He's, on the radio stations. He's up near the top of the charts and has won several awards. So thank you, Jason, for joining us today. Thank you for having me.

You bet. Now one of the You make me sound pretty cool. Oh, I know that that's that's the aim here. Yeah. So, so as far as our podcast is concerned here, we want to talk about a few things.

But first of all, one of the reasons we're talking to you right now is an event that's coming up, although it will be in the past as some people listen to this podcast. But it it's a a concert to, help fight homelessness in the the Idaho Falls area. Tell us about that. Now how are your feelings about the importance of doing that? Oh, yeah.

You know, caring for the poor has become my most meaningful worship personally. You know? And, and that's because, you know, like, at at some point, my theology shifted from some idea that, my job as a believer was to behave, keep my nose clean, and bide my time until Jesus returned or I went to heaven. You know? And at at some point, it moved away from that to more of an understanding that, the kingdom of God is at hand and that God, well, okay.

So the the old idea is, like, a theology of evacuation and abandonment. Right? This world is not my home, so we're gonna leave it all all behind. And it shifted to an understanding that, well, evacuation and abandonment is not usually how God works. He he usually like, his character is to break in and to break through and to redeem and to save.

Right? And so that moved my my understanding to that my job as a believer is to become a doorway through which god enters the world around me. Right? And and then that was clarified a bit more, as I read Matthew chapter 25, and Jesus is painting a picture of what it's gonna look like at the end of days when we stand before God. And, apparently, we will be asked some questions.

You know? And what's interesting as we read through it is that, we aren't asked any theological or doctrinal questions, which are the things that as western evangelicals, we can sometimes fixate on. Right? Mhmm. We won't be asked, did you believe in infant baptism?

Did you believe in the inerrancy of scripture? Did you believe in the virgin birth? All those things are important. Absolutely. But, but those aren't the things that God asks us in that moment.

According to Jesus, he asks us, when I was hungry, did you feed me? When I was thirsty, did you give me drink? When I was naked and alone, did you clothe me? Did you visit me? And, apparently, we will say, lord, lord, when did we see you hungry, thirsty, naked, and alone?

And then Jesus says, whatever you did under the least of these, the poor, the powerless, the vulnerable, you did onto me. And in that moment, Jesus is declaring his solidarity with the poor, the powerless, and the vulnerable and the suffering, which which is a good news. Right? Because all of us have been some version of that at some point in our life. And to know that, that when we are suffering, when we when we are in the midst of loss and catastrophe, when when the whole world is moving away from us and discarding us, that's when God is closest.

You know? So that's a beautiful idea to me. And in the in the book of James, you know, it says that true religion is this, that we look after the orphan and the widow. And so this kind of work, caring for the homeless, the poor, the powerless, the vulnerable, the orphan, the widow, I I I I see it as our our most meaningful worship. You know?

I've got a friend actually. He's, he's a worship leader at a big church. He's written songs for the Newsboys and for Chris Tomlin. And, I was hanging out with him a week ago, and I just learned that, he bought a trailer, and, he put 12 washers and dryers in it. And so he leads worship on Sunday morning.

And then after he's done doing that, he drives all of that downtown, and he washes the clothes of the poor in downtown Nashville. And he says he does that so that he can lead worship in the morning, and then he can go live worship. And I just thought, man, that's he's got something right there. That's beautiful, isn't it? That certainly is.

Yeah. That's that's amazing. Well, what about great thoughts? You know, I've heard too that it's it's how we treat people is, you know Yeah. Is is is the mark That's the core question.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Well, you know, I I focus on my Sunday Blessings program, largely on music, along with these inspirational messages like you have just Yeah. Given us so powerfully. We appreciate that. So I just wanted to talk a little about about music, your your Christian music. First of all, how did you get started in writing and singing Christian music?

Yeah. Well, I suppose it goes back to I grew up on the road with my mom's bar band, you know, and so I was I was a little boy, and I was around a lot of music. And, we we didn't go to church. Nobody was was talking about God or anything like that, but I did grow up around a lot of music. What that looked like is we'd, you know, haul all the gear into a converted school bus and drive all around Iowa and the Dakotas and up in Minnesota.

Arrive at the corner bar, load everything in, and my mom would take the stage to sing the Eagles and Hart and the Doobie Brothers, and she'd stick me on a stool at the bar so she could keep an eye on me while she was working. And so there I was, a 5 year old just hanging out at the bar. Right? And, I remember I hated the smoke, but but I had my bottomless glass of root beer and my Star Wars action figures, and the waitresses adored me, and it was a good life. You know?

And, so I grew up on a lot of music, and I imagine that means, you know, that it's no surprise that the first time that I remember hearing God speak to me was was through music. It was through a song by my favorite group. The first music I cared about was Simon and Garfunkel. And then, after that, it was Kenny Rogers and then KISS, but I'm not gonna get into that part of my story. But early on, it was, Simon and Garfunkel.

And my parents were in the midst of a very ugly divorce, and I was caught in the middle of all that. We lived with my grandparents for a number of years. I didn't have my own room, so I'm sleeping on the couch every night. And my grandpa was a good man. In many ways, he was my best friend, but he was also an alcoholic.

So there was a lot of chaos, a lot of volatility. And into all of that, God knew how to speak to me in a language that I would understand. And so it was that I was out doing an errand with my grandpa, and, it was January up in Minnesota, so it was very, very cold. So he left the car running when he went into the liquor store. And I'm sitting in the car, the radio's on, and and over the radio comes a song by my favorite group, Simon and Garfunkel, Bridge Over Troubled Water.

And I remember having this sense of peace come over me and, like, there was a benevolent, loving presence in the car wrapping its arms around me. And as though it was saying, hey. The words of this song that you love so much, this is my heart towards you. And the lyric, you know, is when you're weary, when you're feeling small, when tears are in your eyes, I will dry them all. Like a bridge over troubled water, I will lay lay me down for you.

And I've I got that message, and I I believed it. I didn't have the language then to say, I think God spoke to me or you know? So I don't think I could have made that up because, you know, that that idea wasn't on the menu for Yeah. Yeah. My experience at that age.

So, very early on, I experienced music as one of the ways that God speaks, and I always knew that I wanted to be a part of that. Speaking of of that music, the other new decided to become a a Christian singer songwriter, I'm just curious how they the, the message comes to you. Is it is it Jason Gray coming up with with the lyrics? Did you ever feel with the lyrics and with the music that there's maybe something divine that is and you're just the the instrument? Yeah.

You know, I I I it's tricky, right, because we wanna give credit where credit is due. And I think as believers, we are terrified of being arrogant, and that and that's a good thing to be terrified of. Right? Mhmm. But at the same time, you know, you know, I I was I was listening to, an old interview with with, with Rich Mullins, and he said, alright.

Like, if I were a car that mister Ford made, how would I bring mister Ford glory? By trying to be something I'm not by by going and conquering countries or or or or being a a house? No. I would I would bring him glory by by being what he made me, a car. You know?

And so I've experienced that there is there is a freedom in in just being me and and and being grateful for how God has made me. I think that he has tuned me to the world a certain way. There are things that I care about. There are things that make me mad. There are things that I notice, right, just because of who he's made me.

And a lot of my songwriter is just about paying attention to that. I was talking with my mentor recently. I I wanna do a song excuse me, an album of songs about the church, for the church. And I was stuck, and he said, pay attention to the things that bother you. And that may be a song, you know?

Mhmm. Because, of the way that God has tuned you, you know, this little issue I see that I wanna speak to, maybe that's me being obedient. You know? So that's I'm I'm I'm usually paying attention to what bothers me or what brings me joy, what delights me. You know?

And then I try to write from that place and trust that, oh, that's me being me who God created, and I just have I I I hope that pleases him and brings him glory. Just, for fun, I'd I like, if you wouldn't mind, to to choose one of your songs Yeah. That has a a powerful message. And tell me what that message is and how that came to you. Yeah.

If I could only be known for one song, the one that I would pick, probably the one that that I'm the proudest of, is a song called The Wound is Where the Light Gets In. Mhmm. And and that language first came because I was reading a poem by the Persian poet Rumi, and the line was, the wound is where the light enters you. And, you know, and and and our our our whole faith is, built upon this idea that renewal comes from from death and resurrection. Right?

The wound is where the light gets in. And our our experience too, you know, I bet that you've gone through this. Everyone hearing this has gone through some great difficulty. And if you're hearing this, you've made it. You made it through.

And on the other side of it, on the other side of some great difficulty, we come out stronger, hopefully, wiser, hopefully kinder, more humble. You know? I wrote an album called order, disorder, reorder, and that to me is really good language for describing the pattern of transformation, how God makes us new. Right? Like, we get some understanding, and then we can kinda camp out there.

But then it becomes idolatry, and it becomes a a a rigid, closed way of thinking. And the lord and his mercy has to send some kinda catastrophe to break that all apart, right, and disorder. But then in the aftermath of that, we come out wiser. Right? And, so I see God in every step of that process.

I'm a recovering jerk. I'm not all the way recovered yet. I'm still a little bit of a jerk, but I'm a heck of a lot better than I used to be. And to whatever degree I am patient and loving, and humble and, to whatever degree I I lack self righteousness and arrogance, I owe it to the work that god has accomplished in me through disorder, through the hard times I've gone through, through suffering, failure. Failure is a good one.

Right? It's interesting. Right? Because so much of religious instruction is geared towards helping us to not fail, and yet failure is one of the things that God uses most profoundly to change us. Right?

So sometimes it looks like our religious culture is kind of at odds with how God normally works or whatever. But but I suppose we have to be taught to not fail Mhmm. And that failure is something to avoid so that then when failure happens, it's sufficiently catastrophic enough Yeah. To break us open. Right?

Yeah. So I guess they are working together. Yeah. Yeah. I heard one religious leader say, you know, people might say, you know, God, please take away all my problems, all my sins.

Don't let me have to go through the kinds of things that you went through. And but it's those things that, like you're saying, that song that really, are are what build people up. So that I I love what you said about that. Yeah. So The wound is where the light gets in.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm and would you be okay if I played a little snippet of that on my podcast here? I would be honored.

Okay. I'd be so grateful. Yeah. That that would really, really be, I think, impactful for us to listen to a little bit of that. One final question.

I know that you have a lot of things to do, but I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you at the end here, knowing your feelings about Jesus Christ, to share your witness and your feelings about the savior and and what he means in your life. That's really good. I went through a really brutal divorce about 8 years ago, and, it was it was very painful, very confusing. I didn't understand why it was happening. I didn't want it to happen.

I'd always experienced god's faithfulness that even if things were hard, he would save the day in the 11th hour. I know that God is not gonna interfere with an individual's will. Right? So, like, I don't I didn't expect him to rob her free will of her, and yet at the same time, I felt very alone in that season, and I never prayed harder for anything in my life. And it just felt like I'd call upon I'd call upon the Lord who who who I'd always had such a close, loving relationship with.

And my experience was I just got a dial tone. You know? And, and that really that really that really broke me and began to unravel my faith. And I I wrestled with that for many years, and it continued to unravel until I completely lost my faith. And I just did not have belief in me.

I remember a key moment, and I'd always enjoyed a very intimate, loving relation with Jesus. It wasn't just a belief that, like, I I loved. I had an affection, and I felt his affection for me. It was all very real to me. I remember there's a camp that I work at every summer, and, and I was in the midst of this while I was out at that camp, the loss of faith, the loss of belief.

And, at the end of at the end of the camp, I've been there for a month. I'm packing up. It's 1 AM, and I decided to go out on the dock on the lake, the place I've gone to many times over my many years there, and it it was often a meeting place, intimate meeting place for me and the lord. And I went out there, and I didn't even have anything in mind. I I was just gonna go out there because it was the cool of the of the evening on a hot August day.

And I went out there, and I sat down, and it surprised me what came out of me. It just came out of me. And I said, I'm sorry, but I don't love you anymore. And the truth of it just kinda broke me. I was surprised by it, and I I wept a little bit.

And I got up, and I went back to my my cabin. And I thought in that moment that that was the end of something, that I was naming the end of something. And it was like the moment I said it, the light that had gone out inside of me, it came back on in a small way and began to grow again since then. So I would say that that since then, it's it's been it's been growing again, my my my my affection for him. But but we've seen we've seen some times, and I I I I still I still don't know if I completely trust him, at least not in the naive way that I did before, but it's it's growing.

It's coming back. You know? So I'd say that that's where I'm at. Yeah. It's growing again.

Great. And I'm trying to trust him again. And and and and he's demonstrating ways that I can that are very beautiful. He's he's coaxing me out of my, my, my heart that got hard to to protect myself from any more any more disappointment and pain. So Wow.

Well, we certainly appreciate you, being so transparent about your feelings. I'm sure that this will touch people and, help them along their faith journey as well. So, Jason Gray, thank you so much for joining us on Sunday. Blessings today. I'm Jay Hildebrand.

Thanks for listening to the Sunday Blessings podcast. If you enjoy the show, please share, subscribe, and rate the podcast. Sunday Blessings is hosted by Jay Hildebrand, and is production of Riverbend Media Group. For more information or to contact the show, visit riverbendmediagroup.com.